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1800 bets off [Music] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
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listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always he's a dangerous man with some
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money in his pocket keep up here is the captain it's good to be seen and good to
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see you thanks for listening thanks for telling up friend this week we are proud to be
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featuring weird and Gilly IPA by the brilliant Brewers at single cut beersmiths some cat from Japan suggested
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how about we pass around some praise first up a shout out a big shout out to Ashley in Jackson Center Ohio and how
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about a little sidecar action here's a shout out to Dan the man also in Jackson center and a big we like your JY goes to
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Kelly from Huntsville Alabama next up here's a shout to Brenda Whitman in paragold Arkansas and how about a big
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sky country show shout out to Mariah and Co strip Montana and last but certainly
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not least we have a shout out to the spiders from Mars all of those great folks went to True Crim garage.com and
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contributed to the Beer fund and for that we thank you yeah BW R in beer run if you're not subscribed to us on
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YouTube go do it it's free tons of content being put out every week that's where I'm releasing all the old episodes
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of off the Record so you can check those out there and Colonel that's enough for
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the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:03:52
crime the murder investigation involving a woman and her dog stabbed at pedmont Park Atlanta police now saying want to
00:04:00
talk with half a dozen potential Witnesses the mayor and police chief publicly discussing this case for the
00:04:06
first time today stressing the investigation is still very active but at this time they are unable to name a
00:04:13
suspect or make an arrest Joe hanky had the chance today to bring your questions
00:04:17
about this case to police Joe Sheba today Atlanta police gave us images from security cameras posted directly outside
00:04:25
of peont Park the images aren't the greatest quality but if police can identify and talk with the people pictur
00:04:29
Ed they might they believe that might lead to a break in the case 40-year-old Katie Janice and her dog Bowie were last
00:04:35
pictured at the rainbow crosswalk at 10th in pedmont soon after police responded to pedmont park after both
00:04:41
were killed the Jan is being stabbed now police are asking for six potential witnesses to come forward three
00:04:47
individuals here exiting the park around 11:54 p.m. on Tuesday at 10th in Charles
00:04:53
Allen 12:25 a.m. on Wednesday a person appearing to leave the park at 12th in pedmont and someone else same
00:04:59
intersection at 12:43 a.m. finally another person at 12:46 back at 10th in Charles Allen let's be clear those are
00:05:06
not suspects those are individuals that we know were inside the park uh and we just want to know what they saw what
00:05:12
Atlanta police have not released or any security camera images from inside the park we are still working with vendors
00:05:19
to try and determine if there's any information we can get off of those cameras John Kean Chief Operating
00:05:25
Officer for the City of Atlanta says there are nine cameras inside pedmont Park that use older technology and are
00:05:31
unable to integrate with the city's more modern camera system so images from the
00:05:35
cameras in the park cannot be retrieved as easily if at all a lot of false information that is being spread it is
00:05:42
not helpful to this investigation and M ke Lance bottom says as of now there is no indication to support rumors of the
00:05:50
case being linked to a Serial murderer nor is there any indication this was a hate crime Beyond calling the murder
00:05:56
gruesome and saying Janice was stabbed multiple times few specific of the crime have been released today deputy chief
00:06:02
Charles Hampton described why there are things that uh only the individual or individuals responsible for this no this
00:06:11
is very important when we apprehend them this is what we use as to further our case in order to bring them to
00:06:19
justice and Atlanta police chief Rodney Bryan today said he decided last week to
00:06:23
call the FBI in to assist with this case because this murder is unique and outside the norm he said of what they
00:06:29
typic see but he didn't explain what made the murder unique he added though the FBI has many resources and it's best
00:06:34
to include them earlier rather than later in the [Music] investigation Katherine Janice who went
00:06:52
by Katie grew up in Detroit Michigan in 2006 as a young adult she relocated to Atlanta Georgia deliberately choosing
00:07:02
the progressive liberal cities Midtown neighborhood it was a welcoming environment for those interested in the
00:07:09
Arts and involved in the lgbtq community one of Katie's first jobs in Atlanta was a bar manager gig
00:07:19
for the whole world improv theater Katie was a musician writing songs expressing
00:07:26
her political views and playing guitar in some local bands at the time as well but I can attest to this and the captain
00:07:34
will back me up music doesn't always pay the bills so she had to continue working
00:07:41
these other jobs she worked as a bartender at the Midtown Restaurant campagnolo for several years The
00:07:50
Establishment was right down the street from her and her partner's apartment and
00:07:55
was situated at the intersection of 10th Street in pedmont Avenue where the Washington Post describes the rainbow
00:08:04
crosswalks denote the area significance as the center of the lgbtq community and a Haven at work
00:08:14
Katie was known to be friendly and kind sweet a little geeky as one regular Patron described her but she was not the
00:08:24
Rowdy bartender type throwing down shots and hooking up with patrons no she collected books wrote poetry and songs I
00:08:34
love the Geeks of the world Geeks of the World Unite unite we we are all holding
00:08:39
hands sweaty Palms Katie met her part Katie met her partner Emma Clark I believe this was sometime in 2014
00:08:49
Captain Emma was 10 years younger than Katie but the two were inseparable and by
00:08:58
2021 k and Emma were trying to save up money for a down payment to buy their first home together but for now they
00:09:05
lived in Upper middleclass midtown Atlanta a generally safe area that was filled with restaurants bars and a
00:09:14
thriving music scene makes sense given Katie's personality and music background Katie and Emma had two dogs one was a
00:09:23
14-year-old female dog named Tori and the other was a three-year-old dog named Boe guess and she named the dog after
00:09:31
David Bowie Let's get to the events of July 28th 2021 the day in question actually what we should say is July 27th
00:09:42
is where we're going to start we need to go through that day and then go into the
00:09:46
early morning hours of July 28th so Katie was off of work on the evening of July 27th this is a Tuesday she had
00:09:57
dinner at her home at the apartment that she shared with Emma so the two have dinner together and the two dogs are at
00:10:04
home with them obviously at this time as well Emma is going to be working that night she's also going to be working
00:10:11
quite late that night one of the dogs Bowie the younger of the two had been cooped up for some time it was a warm
00:10:18
summer night so after Emma goes off to work Katie decided to take Bowie out for a walk it would be good for both of them
00:10:28
to get get out get some fresh air and stretch their legs this was sort of a routine for the two of them to go out
00:10:36
for a late night walk yeah I was going to say they live in a nice Community that's one of the perks is hey let's go
00:10:42
for an evening stroll and you feel safe in that community and in that environment and to sort of paint this
00:10:48
picture a little bit better this neighborhood it's situated so that there's businesses nearby both of the
00:10:57
businesses that Katie and Emma work at are within walking distance yeah from their apartment there's a nice park in
00:11:05
the area like the captain said this is the type of area that you it's inviting to be out and walking the streets it's
00:11:12
inviting to go out and take a walk and Katie and Emma when they would go out on walks especially Katie with the dog they
00:11:20
were more evening and night people due to their work schedules they both worked at restaurants and places that you're
00:11:28
going to make most of your money if you work at in the evening hour so by being creatures of habit most of the time that
00:11:36
they're out and about would be in the evening hours or even later at night right like I said this is sort of
00:11:43
routine for Katie and Bowie to go out for a late night walk what most of us would presume to be a late night walk
00:11:52
Bowie from my understanding was very well trained a very well- trained dog used to walking on on a leash next to
00:12:01
his mom's he was not the kind of dog to strain or pull away or one that was hard
00:12:06
to control or direct when walking like some dogs do he healed walking patiently next to Katie or Emma whoever held the
00:12:17
leash this night July 27th was no different although it was late after 10: the city was well lit restaurants and
00:12:28
bars were still busy cars and buses still drove up and down the streets people were out on bikes people were
00:12:35
walking and scootering to and from wherever they're going we don't have an exact time Captain when Katie set out on
00:12:43
her walk but we do know that it was sometime after 1 p.m. that night it's weird though how we feel if other people
00:12:51
are out and about that we're in a safer environment when the most dangerous animal on earth is man perfect that you
00:13:00
key in on that and bring that up here because there was at least one person that knew Katie that after the fact
00:13:09
would openly tell everyone look I worry that she thought that this park or this area even though she had lived there for
00:13:18
a considerable amount of time she may have thought that this area or this park again it's considered to be generally
00:13:26
safe but this person's perspective but maybe she thought it was safer than it was exactly safer than what it was was
00:13:34
this person's perspective so sometime after 10 p.m. Katie takes the dog Bowie for a
00:13:41
walk at 11:35 and we have multiple witnesses to back up this Tim stamp here on our
00:13:49
timeline Bowie and Katie they sto by Emma's work just to say hi check in hey how's it going how's your shift but
00:13:58
anybody that's worked at bars or restaurants one thing that is both good and bad about working in these
00:14:04
environments you don't always know you know what time you got to be there and clock in you don't always know what time
00:14:10
your shift is going to end sometimes you're there until the business closes other times you are there until it
00:14:16
business slows down right and you might not be able to gauge that until you are have been working for several hours so
00:14:24
from my understanding part of this stop was not just to say hello but it was also hey typical conversation between
00:14:30
restaurant and bar workers is going to be H what time you think you're getting off tonight and that was part of the
00:14:35
conversation and so we have several people there that that that say hi to Katie not just Emma but also Katie and
00:14:44
Emma are seeing talking together Emma is seen petting the dog Bowie then Katie said that she would see Emma at home
00:14:53
after Emma's work shift that evening I want to be clear about something here because I've heard some different
00:15:00
versions of this story based off of different sources and it's it's pretty well split down the middle 50/50 and you
00:15:10
know Captain when there's when there's different details we always report all sides of it because I we were not at the
00:15:18
restaurant that night we don't know exactly what their conversation was so it's only fair to report what we have
00:15:25
found in our research a lot of the reports State what we just set Emma says you know I think I'm getting off at this
00:15:31
time or maybe I'm working till closing and Katie says okay great I'll see you when you get home some of the other
00:15:40
sources state that Katie said that she was trying to that she would come back to the restaurant and her and Bowie or
00:15:48
at least Katie would be walking home with Emma that evening which which makes sense it's a nice gesture yes and I'm
00:15:55
sure on occasion that is what exactly happened she would show up and and go home walk home with Emma we should point
00:16:04
out here though Katie is on foot obviously walking the dog Emma rode her bike to work which was typical of her
00:16:11
she rode her bike that night so they could have been planning to walk home together I think that it's if I had to
00:16:19
choose I'm guessing that it's more of I'll see you when you get home because Emma would be biking home that night now
00:16:26
we're going to move on our timeline to just after midnight Emma bikes home from work and when she gets to their
00:16:35
apartment she's surprised to not find Katie and Bowie there at home yeah and anybody that's not owned dogs or or had
00:16:46
the pleasure of having a dog in the family their their other dog Tori is 14 years old I've been lucky enough to have
00:16:55
dogs that have lived to be 14 15 16 years old they just don't want to walk as much as the little three-year-old dog
00:17:02
does right and frankly they they they start to turn into cats a little bit at some point in their old age where they
00:17:09
just kind of want to be left alone and they just want to kind of lay around the house so you're just pointing out that
00:17:14
Katie wasn't being mean to the other dog it makes perfect sense that you would be
00:17:18
walking the dog that's young and needs the exercise I always say a tired dog is a happy dog uh 14-year-old dogs are
00:17:26
constantly tired so they're constantly happy sry 40-year-old men yeah Emma arrives home doesn't find her partner
00:17:33
Katie and Bowie is not home as well so she's like okay well they've been out for a considerable amount of time at
00:17:40
this point but it's also not completely out of character out of their routine so
00:17:46
she gets home and it's just old dog Tor all by her Lonesome as we said it's late
00:17:53
it's after 12:30 a.m. by this point Emma knew that Katie and and Bowie had set out quite some time ago for
00:18:01
their walk later Emma would say in an interview if I get home and Katie is not there I always just call her and she
00:18:10
always answers but this time she didn't answer Emma said I called her a bunch of times
00:18:17
she didn't answer I text her a bunch she didn't respond so after a bit Emma decides to
00:18:25
use the find my iPhone app to see where Katie may be she opens up the app and of course Katie's phone is visible
00:18:35
she can see the location of Katie's phone she says that she the the phone was located right inside the entrance to
00:18:44
nearby pedmont park but the phone wasn't moving this is concerning obviously she's out on a walk one would expect to
00:18:55
see the phone start moving at some point Emma decided that she was going to head
00:19:00
out and look for Katie and she even stated later that she thought perhaps Katie had dropped her phone maybe she
00:19:07
couldn't find it in the dark but she really didn't know what was going on so Emma rode her bike toward the phone
00:19:15
location at 12:57 a.m. she approached the Gated entrance to pedmont park now there are several entrances to this park
00:19:25
yeah it's a big Park this entrance is located at 10th Street in Charles Allen Drive Northeast and as she arrived to
00:19:34
this location she says she could see a form lying on the ground this visible to her from the gate area she gets a little
00:19:43
bit closer she realizes this is her dog Bowie Bowie was lying on the roadway inside the park about 50 ft 5 ft from
00:19:55
the gate Emma would later tell 11 alive news I just ran in and I grabbed him because I didn't know maybe he was still
00:20:05
alive obviously I knew something was wrong because he was just lying there I didn't put two and two together because
00:20:12
I didn't notice her right away so just to be clear here to be Crystal Clear what she's saying is that at this point
00:20:20
she's seeing her dog lying there lifeless about 50 ft from the gate she doesn't know or have any clue
00:20:29
and has not seen Katie yet right at this point so she's not caught sight of Katie
00:20:34
yet she's finding her dog and she doesn't really know what's going on so let's continue on with her statement
00:20:40
that she would give later Emma says the first thing I noticed is I saw Bowie he was visible from the Gate of the park he
00:20:48
was maybe 50 feet from the gate on the inside and she unfortunately meaning Katie was further on the right she said
00:20:58
she she thought at first that Bowie had been possibly been hit by a car because cars sometimes used that road in the
00:21:07
park if anybody's familiar with this park and I'm sure there's a lot of people in the area that are as the
00:21:13
captain pointed out it's a large Park but if you look it up on a map there appears to be some type of paved pathway
00:21:23
now this could be mainly for pedestrians and people on bicycle uh roller blades what have you and it it
00:21:33
clearly is not large enough to be a two-way street but it does appear large enough
00:21:40
that you could fit a car a vehicle a golf cart something of that nature on that pathway and what Emma is saying is
00:21:49
that from her experience in living near the park for a long period of time many years sometimes Vehicles end up on that
00:21:57
paved pathway right he is laying the dog is laying on that pathway and her first
00:22:04
thought which I think would be natural reaction would be to think possibly he got hit but then of course you're going
00:22:11
to be wondering well where is my girlfriend who was walking our dog and also why isn't her phone moving when I'm
00:22:20
looking at the tracker exactly exactly she starts calling out for Katie and looking around she had to look at her
00:22:28
phone again to see where Katie's phone was and then she followed the blip on her find my iPhone app she sees Katie
00:22:39
eventually she finds Katie who is lying on the ground again this is to the right
00:22:45
of where she found Bowie but maybe about 100 feet away Emma says that she rushed
00:22:51
to her and saw with [ __ ] that Katie was covered in bloody gaping wounds and then she ran out of the park after
00:23:01
finding her partner later Emma said quote I tried to feel for a pulse it was clear that she was gone it was dark I
00:23:11
didn't know what was going on I was terrified and shocked well you also don't know if the Killer is still around
00:23:18
that area that's exactly right and that's what Emma's father Joe Clark would later tell the news as well he
00:23:26
says quote she ran for her life she didn't know if someone was still here now Emma calls
00:23:33
police frantically and this is at 1110 a.m. so let's talk about this 911 call because people that are familiar with
00:23:45
this case they know that there's been a lot of different opinions varying opinions on persons who have triy to
00:23:54
decipher the communication the words the statements made by Emma in this 9911 call right the transcription that I have
00:24:03
here Captain goes something like this Emma is stating I'm at the entrance to pedmont park I was just searching for my
00:24:13
girlfriend because I couldn't find her she's dead she's here at pedmont Park please help the
00:24:20
dispatcher responds you said Somebody's dead at pedmont Park Emma oh my God yes help please send help oh my God
00:24:30
dispatcher where is she at the park Emma says she is right near the entrance like
00:24:36
I don't know how to explain it and I given a little bit of a description here I've listened to this 911 call a few
00:24:45
times at this point she's breathing heavily as she's trying to communicate with the
00:24:51
dispatcher and this very likely Captain is from a multitude of things like she said if we are to believe everything she
00:24:59
says she she sprinted out of the park because she's terrified having found her dog and her her partner dead and and and
00:25:10
whatever happened to the two of them was a vicious attack she fled the park according to her statement so so one
00:25:17
would expect her to be breathing heavily and she's also probably terrified and in shock all at the same
00:25:25
time then on the 911 call Emma can be heard talking to someone who sounds like a man like a man's voice a male's voice
00:25:33
who's yelling something you can't really tell what he's saying because it's in the background it's been reported that
00:25:41
the person was saying what the [ __ ] well because he he he might have came upon
00:25:46
the the dog at that point or maybe he came upon Katie at that point and then he's he's freaking out as well yeah so
00:25:55
just to add a little better description to this if if one were to be walking in the park
00:26:01
jogging at night or walking through the park what have you this person likely may have seen Katie first If he if he
00:26:11
were to have been coming from the opposite direction he would have seen Katie first who knows if he saw the dog
00:26:17
or not but then if if his reaction was the same as Emma's to get out of the park you're going to head toward the
00:26:24
nearest exit entrance and that's going to be this gated one that is at this corner of the um 10th of Charles Allen
00:26:33
in 10th street so I picture this as her standing just outside right because there's an intersection there there
00:26:39
you'd feel safer out on the road and he's probably approaching her like what did I just see what the hell's going on
00:26:49
you know and so we know what it's reported that he said he says what the f Emma responds
00:26:56
and you can hear her and she says something like did you just see that and you hear the the male voice
00:27:03
respond saying yes Emma then says that's my [ __ ] girlfriend and and and to hear my voice say it doesn't do you
00:27:12
would really need to hear her say it because there are some people that that don't like the words that she's using at
00:27:19
the time but I think you have to hear the tone of her voice like it she's saying it to the way I hear it the way
00:27:27
that it hits my ear Captain is it sounds to me like like somebody that is trying
00:27:34
to describe an observation that they just made but it's something they can't believe can't believe and maybe don't
00:27:40
understand exactly like I like I don't know what's going on either so then Emma tells the
00:27:47
dispatcher quote like she's dead dead the dispatcher tells her help is on the way now the call does last a little bit
00:27:57
longer than this but there's no there's no interaction between Emma and the dispatcher after this um it it sounds to
00:28:05
me like the call continues because the dispatcher we've heard a bunch of these 911 calls and a lot of times the the
00:28:12
person receiving the call is now alerting emergency services whether it be the cops ambulance both fire
00:28:21
department and some situations and so the rest of the 911 call is the dispatcher alerting emergency service
00:28:28
services but telling the person that he's trying to coordinate with that I I think she hung up because you have the
00:28:36
ambulance and police who are looking for more information you know near the entrance okay great what entrance he
00:28:42
doesn't have the person still he doesn't have Emma still on the line to relay that information to everyone so like we
00:28:49
just covered someone else found Katie this is immediately right after Emma did and
00:28:57
that's someone who s mail in the background of the 9911 call emerged from the park entrance that Emma ran out of
00:29:03
the same entrance exit that Emma ran out of right but I want to be clear here I police have never addressed who that
00:29:12
person was that to me is is a big stumbling block for us as researchers and as true crime
00:29:24
storytellers I really want to know who this person was where they were coming from how long
00:29:30
they were in the park but we also we we need to be logical in our thinking here because of course one could argue could
00:29:38
this have been the killer having watched Emma find Katie from the shadows and then decided to flee and act like he
00:29:47
didn't know what was going on either but the flip of that would be that whoever killed Katie whoever attacked her in the
00:29:56
park that night and we'll go through some more of the details of this crime but they would have been covered in
00:30:03
blood and that would have been obvious to Emma from outside of the park once that intersection is well lit and she
00:30:12
would have been able to see likely been able to see that the person was covered in blood one detail that I think is key
00:30:20
here is because it was so late at night technically the park is closed at this time like the the gates are still open
00:30:28
and and I believe that they close and lock those at some point but what we do know is there are restrooms public
00:30:37
restrooms male female restrooms at this park a couple of different at a couple different
00:30:43
locations and so one thought that I had here was the the restrooms it's been confirmed and reported that they were
00:30:52
already closed and locked up for the night mhm could this have just been somebody who just decided to stop into
00:30:58
the park to try to use one of those restrooms finds the door locked and then then stumbles upon this horrible
00:31:04
situation and gets out a Dodge but the other thing too to keep in mind is If This Were The Killer he would not have
00:31:12
had the ability to go into one of those bathrooms and wash up there he could not
00:31:18
have cleaned up before fleeing and being spotted by Emma as he's leaving the park
00:31:35
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mates cheers to you Colonel cheers to you Captain okay so so many questions that I have so far mhm one I it's very
00:35:56
possible because this park is so large and they don't lock the gates that some people local to this area would still
00:36:04
use it as a way to travel I'll go into the park and use those paths to get from point A to B so the the person could
00:36:15
have still been in the park and just leaving the park or maybe they're using the park to commute yep I'm sure they
00:36:23
know who this individual is but is it possible that you you commit a crime time you discard of your your clothes
00:36:30
change your clothes and and then you happen upon the scene as if you don't know what's going on and then I think
00:36:37
there's a lot of questions that law enforcement is going to have with Emma Katie's partner what time did you leave
00:36:44
work what time did you get to the park I'm sure if she's telling the truth that the information that they probably could
00:36:52
have got off of her cell phone would uh track her whereabouts but also like you said it's a very
00:37:01
dramatic and tragic situation so you do things that might not be great and you might have some actions that compromise
00:37:11
the crime scene like picking up the dog or touching the victim and then we we every crime documentary where there's a
00:37:20
911 call you can spend hours if not days dissecting what what the person meant by
00:37:29
the tone in their voice their actions what choice of words they used we don't know how we' react
00:37:37
ourselves unless we were in that situation I think if I was ever in a true crime documentary and I found
00:37:46
somebody murdered and I called 911 people would be dissecting that call saying he's too calm because normally
00:37:53
when I've been in situations that are emergencies and I've had to call 91 one I know that the information I give to
00:38:00
them is going to be so important to help the victim right I could see myself being too calm and then people making
00:38:08
comments well this guy was so calm he must be the killer but I don't think it's out of bounds that law enforcement
00:38:15
would go hey we got to look into Emma's story what's true what's not true and look at the background of of their
00:38:24
relationship as well after the 911 call obviously police swarmed to the park they saw immediately that this was not
00:38:33
just your run-ofthe-mill big city stabbing quote it's a gruesome scene end quote this comes from Deputy police
00:38:40
chief Charles Hampton some of the cops on the scene described it as quote hard to stomach right so Katie and Bowie
00:38:49
unfortunately are both found dead at the park and this is dead upon arrival for everybody responding to the scene this
00:38:59
isn't put them in an ambulance and they died on the way to the hospital or died at the hospital this is unfortunately
00:39:05
were killed in the park and it's obvious and and that goes back to Emma's statement that she says I didn't know
00:39:13
what to do but it was obvious she was gone it's been described and forgive me for the the crudeness of this statement
00:39:20
but it's been described that like Katie had been cut to Ribbons is at least one of descriptions that was provided well
00:39:30
and I think that's why law enforcement wasn't saying that this looked like a typical big city stabbing because
00:39:37
typically in a stabbing case it's somebody triy to rob somebody maybe the person the victim didn't have something
00:39:44
to give to the robber or they put up a fight the robber stabs him a couple times and leaves them this is not that
00:39:54
this is this seems like a vicious personal murder yeah well and we'll we'll let the listeners decide for
00:40:03
themselves what they think because we're going to go and we're going to talk about the autopsy report here in I
00:40:09
apologize in advance in graphic detail so skip ahead if needed what was done to Katie was incredibly gruesome and we are
00:40:19
not going through these details to be gross or disturbing or any of that but because her injuries I think the
00:40:30
investigators would agree with this statement could potentially tell us a lot about her killer right and may even
00:40:37
help form theories about the murder itself Katie's autopsy was performed on Friday July 30th 2021 by medical
00:40:47
examiner Karen Sullivan MD when The 40-Year-Old Katie's body was brought in she still had her right earbud in and
00:41:00
her socks and shoes on she was wearing her t-shirt and her pants and underwear were found were as they were found which
00:41:10
we will get into in a moment but all of these items of course were removed and then placed into evidence real quick on
00:41:16
the earbud thing Katie like many people outw walking or exercising she actively was listening to music
00:41:27
or podcast and so given that the earbud is found still in place in the right ear
00:41:35
it's believed by Emma and police that she was probably walking through the park that evening listening to something
00:41:43
on her on her phone which could mean that she may have never even heard her attacker approaching her right Katie was
00:41:53
stabbed upwards of 50 times 5 times more than that the autopsy report says that her death was due to sharp
00:42:02
force injuries of her face neck and torso but that doesn't even begin to describe the wounds essentially somebody
00:42:10
carved her up she had at least 15 insided wounds from her forehead to her chin slicing cuts that Fayed her skin
00:42:18
open in an x pattern this including her nose and lips both eyelids were sliced through and both lips cut all the way
00:42:27
through to the underlining tissue both kateed arteries were cut in a gaping 9 and4 inch by 5 and A2 in sized wound
00:42:40
inflicting several overlapping slashes the cuts to her throat were so deep that they went all the way through to the
00:42:48
vertebrae and through to the muscles on the back of her neck this is probably the hardest part of the autopsy report
00:42:57
her heart was still beating while this those injuries occurred she had sharp force injuries to both breast and
00:43:04
multiple stabs to her upper and lower back the back wounds penetrating her aorta and left lung and liver meaning
00:43:12
these are very deep wounds those areas had started to fill with blood this again meaning that her heart was beating
00:43:21
while this happened as well there was also at least 14 sharp force injuries that spam and the lower back uh and she
00:43:29
had a multicolored tattoo on the lower back region now it's there's been a lot of speculation over the past two and a
00:43:40
half years roughly since this murder took place the last almost three years since this murder took place about what
00:43:48
that meant was some had speculated that it might be a pride tattoo and that the killer was trying to destroy the pride
00:43:56
tattoo to be to be completely clear here there's never been any confirmation that
00:44:02
I could find of what that what the tattoo was of so when you when you hear that or you read that somewhere please
00:44:10
note that that is just speculation Katie had sharp force injuries of the abdomen
00:44:15
with evisceration of the small intestine hemorrhaging in the bow indicates that she was alive while this
00:44:23
was done to her as well defects in the shirt corresp respond to wounds on the body what that means to the lay person
00:44:30
is she was stabbed through the shirt so the the holes in the shirt unfortunately line up with the holes in
00:44:41
the body underneath the shirt but what we do know Captain is that then at some point the attacker or attackers lifted
00:44:52
up her black t-shirt that she was wearing because they found the letters f a t were carved into her lower chest and
00:45:02
abdomen area she's listed as weighing 155 lbs and almost 5' 7 in tall so even though the letters f a are carved into
00:45:13
her she she's not fat by any means at all uh and we can kind of try to get into the the killer or the attacker's
00:45:22
head here and after we get through some of the details of the crime to see if that means
00:45:27
anything but she's totally normal healthy size for her age so where the letters capitalized or so here's the
00:45:37
description the best description that I could find the F and the a were on the right side of the midline of her body
00:45:46
and the T on the left okay the T being the deepest of the three so that that's the deepest wound
00:45:54
of the three letters each letter was several inches tall to try to describe it the way that I read this Captain the
00:46:05
autopsy report the way that it's described the person would have had to have been standing over top of her to
00:46:13
obviously to do this and might have been we we'll keep going through the information here but these letters may
00:46:20
have been upside down due to how the the killer was standing above the victim her
00:46:26
pants and under where were down around her knees when she was found there was sharp force injury to the lower back
00:46:34
area there were no vaginal injuries and no sign of rape according to the Emy she
00:46:41
had lots of defensive wounds on her hands as we would expect she also had multiple contusions indicating that she
00:46:48
was beaten with something you know she's not just stabbed she was beaten with something as well and this could have
00:46:55
been simply something as simple as fist or it could have been an actual object yeah there or or the backside of the the
00:47:03
handle of the knife yeah we don't have anything conclusive to say if it was a a heavy metal object or anything like that
00:47:12
it's it's just simply saying that she was beaten with something possibly fist okay two things and and give your
00:47:20
thoughts on these to me okay there's no physical evidence of sexual assault but I think that's kind of misleading
00:47:30
because if she's found with her pants and her underwear around her ankles that almost seems like that's
00:47:38
what the perpetrator was attempting but maybe just weren't able to commit the assault and then my other thing do you
00:47:48
believe this is one attacker because we have different wounds that are telling us that there's technically different
00:47:57
instruments used is it possible that there's two attackers I think that it's it's possible I I want to refrain from
00:48:03
using the word likely because I could see this being a single attacker and multiple attackers the the I think what
00:48:13
lends itself to one thinking that maybe we have multiple attackers here is the presence of the dog yeah right this is a
00:48:21
young 50 lb dog it's a decent sized dog a pitbull so there they are typically fast and and protective dogs
00:48:32
so the presence of the dog makes it more complicated obviously for one perpetrator to commit this unless you
00:48:42
are able to neutralize the threat of the dog quickly and but the earbud still being in almost that is indicative to me
00:48:52
of a surprise attack of some type of Ambush yeah I agree so then you have to play play this out and go well how could
00:49:00
somebody surprise and Ambush the victim but also neutralize the dog at the same time and that's where you Circle back
00:49:09
and go well was there multiple attackers the other thing that I want to present here and I don't know why I can't shake
00:49:16
this idea if the dog is is very well behaved and responds to being called and listens you're out at night yeah there's
00:49:26
other people out walking and around and such but when once you go into the park this is a large open area is there a
00:49:34
chance that you let the leash go or let Bowie off the leash and he stumbled upon
00:49:39
something before you did right that's the way that I could see this playing out and working and I hate to use that
00:49:48
word but when we you have to look at these things the way that it detective would how did this play out and how does
00:49:53
this make sense logically that that that what we know happened happened and so that's how I feel like this possibly
00:50:01
works now back to what you said about the pants being pulled down I have a lot of thoughts on that and I agree with you
00:50:09
that could be that could be exactly the situation where the attacker thought to about raping or sexually assaulting the
00:50:19
victim and for some reason did not for any number of reasons the other thought that I had too is based off of the
00:50:27
the The Carving the letters into the victim seems that has to be important to the killer or he would never have done
00:50:34
that was it just out of necessity like when you when he pulled up the shirt right he he already stabbed her through
00:50:41
the shirt yeah he then pulled up the shirt because the letters f a t are not through the shirt that the shirt was
00:50:48
lifted up and then carved into the body was it necessary for him to pull down the pants to to do that too I don't know
00:50:58
you know we have a general location of where those letters were carved but not the exact location well then it also
00:51:05
makes you wonder is the pulling down of the pants and underwear is it to suggest
00:51:12
the sex of the attacker yeah well I to me the the viciousness of the attack is suggestive of the gender of the attacker
00:51:21
mhm I mean I'm I'm just playing the numbers here but an attack this violent is almost always a a male attacker now
00:51:31
we I've you know you and I have reviewed a lot of these a lot of cases I shouldn't say a lot of these cases
00:51:37
because just like the cops and detectives are pointing out this is different from yeah the homicides
00:51:43
they've investigated in the very big city of Atlanta Georgia but one case and I and I know this to be true in a couple
00:51:51
cases but I can think of one right away where they initially suspected sexual assault on the victims because the pants
00:51:59
were found to have been you know they were down around the knees or ankles of the victims and later they determined
00:52:05
there was no sexual assault and they figured out that the victims had been dragged and the way that they were
00:52:10
dragged you know it's very hard to pick up an entire human being an adult human being so oftentimes you drag them by the
00:52:18
the legs the feet the arms the shoulders what have you and in that case they they
00:52:25
were able to determine based off of the drag marks and off of other things that they were seeing on the body that the
00:52:31
pants were found pulled down to the the knees and Ankle area simply because the perpetrators had dragged and moved the
00:52:40
bodies and just by dragging them along the ground that surface is what pulled and tugged at the pants to where they
00:52:48
were found eventually well did law enforcement find any evidence of Katie being dragged there I found one report
00:52:56
that says that she may have been dragged and that's that to me is is really something that I'm very invested in
00:53:07
trying to get to the bottom of and if I had that information trust me it would be here because that was there are two
00:53:14
things in this case that that to me I really want to know the answers to and we'll get to we can get to some of that
00:53:20
stuff in in the theories but wrapping up the autopsy information here as we said
00:53:26
unfortunately Katie was still alive while some of these wounds were being inflicted so whoever did this what we
00:53:33
can say with certainty Captain is whoever did this was incredibly vicious and likely wanted her to suffer well
00:53:41
like you said most likely completely covered in blood yes and Katie was stabbed both in the front and back so
00:53:49
someone very deliberately turned her over to continue inflicting penetrating wounds and yeah
00:53:56
yeah unless they attacked her from behind and then she turned around to defend herself and then the the attack
00:54:02
continued how deep and how severe a lot of these wounds are I would be surprised if she was standing for
00:54:09
very long into this this attack I think she she's you know we talked about neutralizing the threat of the dog I
00:54:16
think she's been neutralized and taken down to the ground rather quickly now nothing has been released about the type
00:54:25
of weapon used so we don't know for sure what weapon was used maybe the police do
00:54:32
not know as well but based on the slicing wounds and the amount of penetrating stab wounds it had to be
00:54:39
something very substantial in my opinion and this was not you know just to kind of touch on
00:54:46
motive here for a minute this was not a typical stab and grab robbery first of all as far as we know Katie wasn't
00:54:54
robbed Emma told the Washington Post that robbery did not appear to be the motive because they didn't take her
00:55:02
phone so her phone was found and why wouldn't it be I mean we know that Emma was using the find my iPhone app or says
00:55:10
she was to locate Katie Katie was wearing $200 headphones they didn't take those headphones they didn't take her
00:55:18
keys and a couple of sources I did see that that money was found on her person a small amount of money so as far as
00:55:30
robbery goes this doesn't appear to be a robbery have gone horribly wrong and turned into
00:55:36
this vicious murder because any items of value that she had with her that night according to Emma and at least what the
00:55:46
The Limited information we can get from police all of those items and possibly cash were found still on or near her
00:55:55
when she was located at at in the park that night well I was going to ask you do we have uh do we know how deep the
00:56:01
stab wounds were because with the amount of slashes almost feels like a like a box cutter as opposed to a a knife well
00:56:13
yes and you're right that that would be likely a sharper item that would would lead to kind of these
00:56:24
gaping large slash and cuts but you know that this we do know that the stab wounds were not just into the back but
00:56:35
they they went into vital organs right and so they were deep enough for that but the the I don't know
00:56:44
the the gaping n and A4 inch wound to the kateed artery area seems like yes like it would have
00:56:54
to be something very sharp like a box cutter but then the problem with the box cutter is it wouldn't go in 9 in it
00:57:03
would probably break off before then exactly now that's that's very insightful there Captain what we don't
00:57:10
the information we don't have is what kind of weapon was used because like you said and I would expect the same thing
00:57:16
that a box cutter the blade would break off would have been found at the scene or on somewhere on our victim here I
00:57:26
kind of and but it's open case so we're not privy to all the information so for all we know a blade was found with
00:57:33
inside her and they're keeping that information back cuz that's something that only the attacker would know
00:57:40
exactly they may know just because it's not been released doesn't necessarily mean that they don't know exactly what
00:57:47
kind of weapon killed the victims you know my mind kind of went to something like the Moscow College the Idaho
00:57:57
College murders with that kind of more like uh large [ __ ] bag that giant bag of
00:58:04
a person yeah like a a large Rambo style blade but again yeah we don't know and and we're not medical examiners so it's
00:58:12
difficult to for us to review these wounds and tell you what kind of well maybe we are but we're just not telling
00:58:19
people we are so if it wasn't robbery it wasn't a sexual assault right it get that's it's like then now you you go
00:58:31
into considering the wounds that were inflicted on on our victim and the amount of wounds so that that's telling
00:58:39
too because that tells us the attacker took time to do what he wanted to do and this is this is where my mind
00:58:49
goes with this there are a lot of people that are suspicious of Emma and we will
00:58:55
definitely get into why that may be I don't see so much a reactionary attack here this to me sounds a lot more like
00:59:05
all of the FBI books and stuff that I've reviewed all of these serial killer types that that we've reviewed where
00:59:11
it's like they create this fantasy of what they want to do to somebody how they want to attack someone and then
00:59:20
took the time and felt like they had the time to do what he wanted to do to the victim we know that this took a
00:59:28
considerable amount of time how much time is is hard to say but it does not appear if someone's choosing to carve
00:59:35
letters into a victim that is suggestive to me that this killer or attackers did not feel
00:59:43
rushed and the letters are very that's a very deliberate act carving letters into
00:59:49
the Torso of a living human being in a public park in the middle of a big city right in plain sight
00:59:56
I mean she's not found behind a bunch of trees or in shrubbery or in the woods she's lying on the ground in plain sight
01:00:03
under a tree alongside the roadway in the park the roadway is where people would naturally walk and Traverse at
01:00:10
night time especially at night time yeah it makes you start questioning where the
01:00:14
attack happened did he drag Katie to this location so that that she would have been found again if we have her
01:00:22
phone can we track the movements of her phone obviously that's information that the police would probably want to hold
01:00:31
back but we were dealing with a very violent individual and we're dealing with somebody this is somebody that
01:00:39
stabbed somebody over 50 times basically in a public park it wouldn't be surprising to me if this person hasn't
01:00:48
committed other crimes similar to this this attack well and the thing here to me is if in fact If This Were A Thrill
01:00:58
Kill was that part of the thrill for the the killer just that the fact that they
01:01:04
would have the riskiness of doing it in a public location that I mean walking this
01:01:12
fantasy as far as you can to the edge without going over the edge and now I've seen some estimates that have been put
01:01:20
forth by experts here that vary that say that you know if if this thing went down
01:01:28
really quick and happened really fast it's possible not likely but possible all of these injuries could have been
01:01:36
inflicted in as little as three minutes time or as many as 10 minutes time and I
01:01:43
have to believe that it's probably closer to beyond the five minute Mark somewhere between five six minutes in
01:01:50
that 10-minute Mark is what I would be guessing and if that's the case I mean any body could have walked by and caught
01:01:58
a glimpse of this killer hunched over top of a victim so was that part of if it was a Thrill Kill was that part of
01:02:05
the thrill not just the attack itself or the riskiness of the attack but also the
01:02:10
location and the possibility of being discovered or or being cited and then having to to flee yeah that's probably
01:02:18
where I disagree with you a little bit to me the the the stab wounds and the slashes I think could happen with within
01:02:26
a very short amount of time the time period Then elapses a little longer when you when the killer has to reach up pull
01:02:35
the shirt up and then start carving in in letters but I still think all that could have taken place under 3 minutes
01:02:42
easily right but that's not my opinion that my opinion is 5 to Six Minutes close somewhere between that and 10
01:02:49
minutes that that's experts opinions that as little as 3 minutes and as many as 10
01:02:57
now and I'm not the only one to say this either but the fact that Katie was alive
01:03:02
while much of this took place right this implies based on the time and the care for a lack of better term that the
01:03:11
killer took with this handiwork is highly suggestive that the attacker is some type of sexual sadist someone who
01:03:20
gets pleasure out of the pain that they inflict on the victim [Music] so much more to get to in this case
01:03:39
please join us back here in the garage until then be good be kind and don't litter
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