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Come on, Michael. I think they all four of them were tied up, but I don't remember with what.
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>> Who tied those girls up? >> Um, Bob did. >> All four of them. He had to had some help. He needed some
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help. He couldn't have tied all four of them up by himself. >> I don't remember if I helped him or not.
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>> Okay. You think you might have helped him? >> I I guess I did. >> Okay. What were they tied up with?
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>> Come on, Michael. You know what? Were they tied? Just tell us. What were they
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tied up with? >> White. It was had I remember being stretched with I think it was a t-shirt.
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>> T-shirt. Okay. What else were they tied up with? >> Uh t-shirt. And >> go ahead. You remember?
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>> You remember Michael Wales? Come on, brother. You know, you know, you know. >> T-shirt and I want to say electrical
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cord. >> No, think harder. >> T-shirt and something else. Uh, >> I'm not going to tell you cuz you know.
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I want to hear it from you. >> I'm trying to remember, guys. >> Something else. >> His t-shirt is something else.
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>> And you have Robin time up. >> I think I guess I did. >> Yeah, you did. What were the girls wearing by the time
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they were tied up? What were they wearing, Michael? That's a gimme. Yeah, >> that's an easy one.
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>> Not a whole lot. >> Not a whole lot. >> They used their own clothes to tie them
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up. >> Use their own clothes to tie them up. You and Rob. And by the time you were
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done, what were they wearing? >> Say it. >> Nothing. >> Nothing. There you go. [Music]
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Back in December of 1991 in Austin, Texas, four teenage girls were bound and killed in a small yogurt shop. The
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store, of course, was robbed. And this is a this is a case that has gripped the city of Austin, Texas, and has gripped
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the the state of Texas as well. We are sitting here now 25 years later, still asking the question, who killed these
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girls? >> So, quick recap. When the firefighters show up to the I can't believe it's
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yogurt shop, they realize quickly it's not just an arson, but we have a quadruple homicide. So that's going to
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be a sign to Detective Jones and Detective Huckabe. And in my opinion, those two detectives, I think they
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worked the case very well. They had a lot of issues here with the with the investigation. This being we have people
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making confessions and that is tough because a lot of these confessions are pretty wild. Uh, according to Jones and
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Huckabe, uh, they're they're able to easily quickly sit down with these different people, these confessors, and
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figure out early in their stories that they don't know certain details of the crime, things that would have taken
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place that evening or evidence that was left and collected at the scene. They're
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unaware of what actually took place. So, we're able to quickly dismiss several of
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these confessors. Eight days after the murders took place, they arrest Maurice Pierce, which had a 22 caliber gun,
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which was the gun used in at least three of the murders, and he implements his teenage friends. Um, Jones and Huckabe
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kind of get to the bottom of this guy is just kind of bullshitting. >> Yeah. And on top of that, the gun does
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not match the ballistics of the bullets that were found on the scene. So, they they get rid of these suspects and they
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clear them and they've moved on in the case. Right. So leads are starting to dry up now. And in 1992, we have a
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madman that's running a muck in the state of Texas. He's a known serial killer. He was somebody that was
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released by the Texas prison system. And he's been suspected of new killings. Well, they track him down in 1992 and
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they suspect that he possibly could have done this crime because he was somewhat
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in the area around the time that the crime was committed. He would have been in Austin, Texas. They can place him
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there about 23 days after the crime. >> Yeah. Within a month, him and another person abduct a lady uh and they rape
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her and murder her. >> Yeah. Uh she was abducted from a downtown car wash and this this crime
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took place, the yogurt shop murders took place in North Austin City. >> And that killer's name, that serial
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killer's name is Kenneth McDuff. He's eventually, you know, they stopped looking at him because there's really
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nothing that ties to him as far as forensics goes. In 1994, Detective Jones, who was the lead investigator of
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the yogurt shop murders, he receives a promotion and they move him off of the case. The case is considered cold at
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this point. Now, in 1996, we have other detectives that would move in and start looking at this case with fresh eyes.
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>> In 1997, we have a serial killer that is captured. He will become known as the
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fast food killer. Yeah, he was a pretty bad dude and he was running a muck in the state of Tennessee. Uh what his emmo
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was was he would walk into a fast food restaurant >> and he would really take the scene over.
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He would he would take control of the scene by holding a gun to everybody. He would make a quick robbery. He would
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usually steal the surveillance tapes if there were any. He would execute all of the persons in the store and then he
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would leave. Within a very short time period from February 16th, 1997 to April 23rd, 1997,
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he robbed three different stores. And in the course of he ended up killing a total of seven people. Yeah. And he's
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not just a suspect because he is known to rob, you know, McDonald's or Captain D's and that, you know, the yogurt shop
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would fall kind of in that line. Mhm. >> He is also from the area of Texas. >> Yeah. He was he was born in Texas and at
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a young age he started getting in trouble with the law. In 1983 he robs a Houston steakhouse and he's convicted of
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aggravated armed robbery. He receives a 20-year prison sentence for this. But he's parrolled after just 7 years. He's
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parrolled in 1990 which and he stays in the Texas area. He becomes a truck driver.
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>> So he was in the area at, you know, in ' 91. Yes. And during this time he's he's
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driving a truck. He ends up in some kind of bad accident and he receives quite a
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handsome settlement for this and he decides that he's going to get some plastic surgery because
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>> it's funny that you said a handsome uh you know >> and then rolled it into plastic surgery.
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>> Right. Right. >> Well, he's kind of an ugly kid. Um I'll go ahead and throw that out there. and
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and he makes himself look a little better and he decides he wants to move to Nashville to become a a country
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western singer. >> Nash Vegas. >> Yeah, I believe he wanted to become the next G Brooks.
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>> No, but he had the talent of Billy Ray Cyrus. >> Yeah, I that might be that might be
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giving him far too much credit. >> Uh but there are some reasons to suspect that he might have done this. This is
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certainly something he would have been capable of. However, his crimes were a little bit different in the sense that
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he he didn't rape anybody involved in these these crimes that he committed up in Tennessee. Now, I'm not saying he's
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not capable of doing so. >> It really seems like his motive was for the money and a financial gain and it
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wasn't, you know, where these crimes, these yogurt shop murders really seemed like to me more sexual in nature and it
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just was by, you know, well, I'm leaving the crime scene. and I might as well take some money with me as I go.
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>> Yeah. And at the yogurt shop, they only the whoever got away with this, they only took $540. And they spent a decent
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amount of time there assaulting the girls. >> His crimes, he got into a place, he
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would take as much money as he could. Most of the time, we're talking about upwards of 2,000 or $3,000 each time.
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And he would he would leave no evidence and he would kill everybody in the store. He was quick in and quick out,
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which is not what we saw in the yogurt shop murders. Plus, he was never known to work with anybody else. I think the
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yogurt shop, it looks like a situation where you have more than one asalent. So, detectives looking into Paul Reed.
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They kind of realize he's kind of a lone cowboy. He's, you know, he's not tag team back again. Um, but this will lead
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them to go back through their notes and start to request some people that that Jones and Huckabe already questioned
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back in '91. Yeah. They're going through the file. They're going over this case time and time again. And what they keep
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going back to is this Maurice Pierce keeps standing out to them >> and his three friends that he has,
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Robert Springsteen, Michael Scott, and Forest Wilbornne, >> the East Street Band.
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>> Yeah. So, they decide that, you know what, this is the most likely situation.
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These guys did it. Uh, Maurice Pierce looks very guilty. He has a 22 caliber gun on him just days after the crime. He
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mentions the crime to people. >> He's kind of a natural-born criminal. >> Yeah. So, he is picked up and this would
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be in October of 1999. They arrest all four men >> and they are going to sit each one of
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them down individually. And now we're going to start getting some answers, some much long awaited answers that
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we've been looking for in this crime. >> Well, they're going to start getting answers because they're going to force
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these answers upon these these suspects. >> Yeah. To say that the interrogation was
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aggressive might be an understatement >> of the century. >> Yes. Um so what happens is they pull in
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the four, they're talking to him, right? Uh Maurice Pierce has got nothing to offer. you know, he keeps saying that,
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"Nope, I I didn't have anything to do with this. I don't know what you're talking about."
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>> Yeah. Even though, you know, Maurice at the time of 90 and 91, he was like 15 or
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so. >> So, he's just this punk kid. He had the 22 caliber. He, you know, basically
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implements his friends into the the crime. But that was just kind of him being a dumb, you know, dumbass
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15-year-old. Yeah. I believe his statement was that he had lent the gun to Forest Wilbornne and that Forest had
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used the gun in the yogurt shop murders. This is what put them on the radar from
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the get-go. Now, when they're talking to them, as said, here's here's what their
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thought is going into this. Okay, so they believe that Maurice Pierce is some kind of criminal mastermind and he
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organized this whole uh robbery, right? And they believe that Robert Springsteen
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helped and Michael Scott helped. They believe that Forest Wilbornne would have been the lookout guy or the driver. Um,
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they believe that it would have taken a group of men to to commit these crimes. Now, keep in mind though, these are just
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teenage boys at the time. >> Now, they're being questioned years later as adults, right? We have two of them that
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might be willing to talk and we have two of them that they don't know anything, >> right?
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>> Maurice Pierce, he doesn't know anything. Forest Wilbourne, he doesn't know anything. They're not admitting to
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anything. >> In 1999, two of the suspects are 24. Uh, Michael James Scott is 25 and Forest
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Welburn is 23. Now, they get Michael Scott to crack first, right? And this is quite the long process. We're talking
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about hours and hours of interrogation. and to to listen to the confession, to view it, you will see that the story is
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changing as Michael's telling it. >> Yeah. And if you listen to the trailer, that was about 7 hours into one of the
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interrogations. >> Mhm. So, where he is, they finally broken him down. They finally get him to
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the point where he admits that he was there, >> that he had taken place in the crime.
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Now he they got to go through the details because they got to confirm that he was actually there.
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>> Well, and that's the problem. >> Mhm. >> He doesn't know the details. >> No, he doesn't get a lot of them right
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without being coaxed to to getting it right. You know, he would often give a wrong answer and they would tell him,
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"No, that's not it. Think harder. You need to try harder." >> Yeah. The detective keeps saying, "I'm
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not going to give you the right answer." Right. >> Yeah. >> Not going to give you the right answer.
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But what he does constantly is he tells you when your answer is wrong. So by a process of elimination, you're going to
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get to the right answer. >> Oh no, they were tied up with their clothes. Okay, they were tied up with
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their clothes. Well, what clothes, >> you know, uh, well, maybe this part of their clothes. No, wrong. You know, and
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he keeps doing that and until he gets the right answer. >> And just to paint the picture for you,
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if you've not seen the confession tapes, >> Mhm. They Michael Scott, he is literally
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sitting with his back up against the wall. I mean, he's pushed up against the wall and he has two detectives on each
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side of him, right up in his face, and they're all sitting down in chairs and they are right up in his face and they
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are very aggressive. Well, got the they got the good cop and bad cop going. They
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got one cop that kind of leans back constantly and then the the main cop questioning is like maybe a couple
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inches from his face. Yeah. So every time, no. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. You get you got the bad cop
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saying, "No, you didn't get that right." And the good cop is saying, "It's okay,
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Michael. You can tell us. We know you know the answers." >> Um, so they play that game for quite
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some time. And we Let's go through Michael Scott's confession. Okay. He states that they were all four of them,
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they were hanging out at the North Cross Mall, which was very close to the yogurt
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shop, >> and that Maurice Pierce is in need of money. So he comes up with this idea
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that we're going to go rob someplace and he actually picks out the yogurt shop. They agree to go to the yogurt shop.
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>> Yeah. Which is probably a pretty common place for teenagers in that town because
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most of the employees there are teenagers. >> He says that the the event starts off
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like this. Maurice goes into the yogurt shop and places an order. And then Robert and Michael, they go in and they
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ask to use the restroom. They want to go to the back of the store to see what's going on in the back. Now, during that
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time, they're going to open up the back door and they're going to prop it open. >> And like we have from the reports, the
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back door was propped open and the front door was locked. >> Yeah. And they're going to wait for the
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store to close at 11:00. Now, after the store closes, Maurice and Robert are going to go back in through the propped
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open back door and they are going to they have guns at this point and they are going to rob this place, right? Mhm.
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>> What ends up happening is during the course of this robbery, they ask the women, the girls, I'm sorry, to remove
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their clothing, uh, this being Robert. And then Michael Scott, he ties up the girls and he gags them. Then Maurice,
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he's demanding money from the girls, but they refuse or they say something like,
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"There is no money." And when this happens, Maurice shoots two of the girls. Robert then hits one of the girls
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and he rapes her. >> Yeah. Which again, this all lines up with the reports. >> Now, the fourth girl is screaming and
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she's begging for her life. She's begging that they do not shoot her. >> Um, Michael Scott then pretends to
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sexually assault her. He's saying that he was being told by the other guys to to rape her and that he he just
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pretended to sexually assault the girl. >> And he can't remember at this point which suspect handed him the gun. Yeah.
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And it's at this point that he does shoot that girl and then he would go on to shoot Amy who was raped by Robert.
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>> And at this point, Michael Scott then says he is the one that stacks the body
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and he also says that he's the one that I think administers the the accelerant. >> You're exactly right.
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>> Again, something that's a little strange because a 24 25 year old uh this is cop
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speak. >> Mhm. You know, a lot of detectives that have looked detectives and lawyers that
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have looked at these confessions say it's funny because that the actual written accounts because you have the
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verbal confessions and we have those taped and those are horrendous enough, but then they have to take all those
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statements and then now put them on paper. And basically by looking at the the written statements, these cops go,
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"Well, it's kind of strange that the these kids are constantly using cop." >> Yeah. It's like they're picking up words
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as they're going along and and they state that, you know, it would have been more common to hear a criminal say
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lighter fluid rather than accelerant. Um, at this point, they leave the building through the back door. Uh, they
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leave it propped open and Michael Scott says that the whole this whole thing only takes about 20 minutes from the
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time that they enter the building after closing until they leave. Now, when they
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get back to the vehicle, Forest Wilbornne is no longer in the vehicle. He has left.
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>> Yeah. Rumor has it he's off somewhere playing a pretend game of pocket pole. >> Yeah. Actually, the the three boys drive
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around and they're looking for Forest and they find him in a park. Uh they pick him up and then at some point they
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are going to ditch a knife that they had taken from the crime scene. I'm guessing
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this would have been to cut up some of the girls clothing or belongings to use them as, you know, bindings. Mhm.
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>> Um the other boy that confessed, the man now, Robert Springsteen, his confession
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is similar. It does line up with some of the things that Michael Scott said. >> Um one of those one of the key things
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here is that they both admit that Robert raped Amy, which that's kind of a a a percentage kind of thing, right? When
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you think about it, you have four asalants and one only they're saying only one girl was raped.
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>> Well, I mean, let's go back a little bit on this because detectives, yeah, we
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have four suspects, but detectives are already kind of leading them on to this idea that well, Forest was outside.
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>> Mhm. >> That So there now there's only three, >> so you got a 33% chance of getting the
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person right. >> That's true. That's true. Yeah. And they they both said that Forest was outside
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as well. and they both said that the door the back door was propped open. It's a little unclear on Robert's
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statement as to when he's saying the back door was propped open. Was it propped open to get back into the store
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or was it propped open when they left the store? >> Um he also seems to have some knowledge
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of the other bullet. Remember we said there was a second gun used in the situation. He seems to have some kind of
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knowledge that there was a 38 involved, not just this 22 that they were already aware of,
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>> right? Which again, all of this starts lining up with the reports. >> But again, his confession is much
00:22:03
shorter, much less detail, and there are parts of it, you know, that do not match
00:22:10
up with Michael Scott's. Uh there are some things that that these guys do not get right.
00:22:15
>> Yeah. And one of the main things that like defenders of these Austin 4 is what
00:22:20
we'll call them is that it's the, you know, Robert claims that he they stacked the bodies and then he lit the bodies on
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fire, >> right? >> Which the initial reports from the the firefighters uh and the fire chief and
00:22:32
the fire investigation was that no, the bodies weren't actually set on fire that
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it would have been the shelves. If you look at the crime scene though, they're right beside each other. Yeah, it they
00:22:43
would have been the body stack would have been about, you know, just four or five feet from this stock shelf, you
00:22:49
know, where you have plastic cups or I'm sorry, styrofoam cups and things of that
00:22:53
nature. Um, it's it's not crazy to to think that maybe this shelf wouldn't have fallen over at some point. U, but
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Michael says that he had used these styrofoam cups with lighter fluid to to light the body stack on fire. Now, what
00:23:09
would end up happening is after they get these confessions, um they would go back
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and they would find a new fire investigator to take a look at the crime scene. And this fire investigator says,
00:23:20
"You know what? I disagree with the previous findings. What actually happened is that the the body stack is
00:23:26
where the fire had originated from." >> Well, this is what is so freaking annoying, right? I mean, we see this
00:23:33
time and time again in these cases that go unsolved. Most of the time when a case goes unsolved, it's because these
00:23:40
detectives, not not Jones, not Huckabe, but these detectives go on this uh this mission, we have a theory, now let's
00:23:48
prove the theory. And like we've always heard, uh some of the smartest detectives that we met and that we've
00:23:53
interviewed, you know, trying to do our job a little bit better on the podcast, get some insider information.
00:24:00
It's the guys that say, "Look, I am not smart enough to to imagine what happened. So, I let the evidence present
00:24:09
itself to me and present the story to me. You follow the evidence. You don't come up with the theory theory and make
00:24:17
the shoe fit, >> right?" and and some of the detectives that we've talked to in the Columbus PD
00:24:22
have been really good about this and the idea that they've even said, "Hey, look,
00:24:27
when you're working on a homicide, you might have two, three detectives involved, sometimes more,
00:24:32
>> right? >> And they've talked several times about how they've had uh partners or people
00:24:38
that they've thought really highly of that would come up with theories >> and then they'd have to rope them back
00:24:44
in. Hey man, you're just you're just trying to make the shoe fit. Knock it off. This is not Cinderella.
00:24:50
>> Right. Right. And the the thing here is here's some other things that don't actually fit. Right. And these are
00:24:56
things in their written confession. So we have the the back door was propped open. One thing that they could not
00:25:02
agree on was what did they use to prop open the back door. One had said it was a rock. One had said that it was a pack
00:25:08
of cigarettes. The problem being here is that again, according to their story, the door would have been propped open on
00:25:15
two different occasions. So, it's possible that both items were actually used. >> Well, and let's let's just remind the
00:25:21
listeners, I mean, this is this questioning is happening in 1999 and not 1991. >> So, some of your account is going to be
00:25:30
off >> right now. One thing that that they couldn't get right to was they had said
00:25:35
that the murders took place inside the office. Well, this was a big red flag to the original detective that was on the
00:25:43
case, Detective Jones, because he states that when the police arrived on the scene, there was no evidence that anyone
00:25:50
had entered that office. It was a locked door and it was locked when they arrived. Um, the murders 100% took place
00:25:58
in the back room in that stocking area, in that prep area that we had talked about. And they probably know that for
00:26:04
well again this case is so tough because of the arson >> and and because the firefighters did not
00:26:10
know that they were going into a a crime scene >> and because they were trying to put out
00:26:14
that that those fires that probably really disturbed uh any blood splatter. >> Mhm.
00:26:20
>> So it you know we can't say 100% that that's where that happened. But what we
00:26:25
can say is that when detectives showed up on the scene, 100% that office was locked and they had to actually get a
00:26:31
key from somebody to unlock lock that office, which makes a lot of sense because who is left in charge of
00:26:38
shutting down the yogurt shop. >> Mhm. >> Two teenage girls, >> right? >> And and so the manager, I'm sure, would
00:26:43
go, "Okay, I'm going to lock this up." Or or maybe that was part of their duty. You know, you put the money away, lock
00:26:49
it up. Mhm. >> Um, but I don't think there was a key on on site and then I don't think there was
00:26:55
a key to the office that even the the teenage girls had. Well, and keep in mind too this under this premise, right,
00:27:03
according to their story, the whole reason anything took place there that night was because it was a robbery. The
00:27:10
motive was to rob the store and get money, >> which I think both of us agree that that
00:27:15
wasn't the motive. >> I I don't think so. You're exactly right. The thing here is though,
00:27:19
Captain, if the if the whole motive was robbery, remember we're saying that they
00:27:24
were inside that store under their own words for 20 minutes. >> Mhm. >> I would argue that it might be closer to
00:27:31
an hour that somebody was in the store. But regardless, there was a lot of things that took place once that store
00:27:38
closed. >> Mhm. >> And and a lot of things happening. And I can't I wouldn't be able to sit here and
00:27:44
have somebody tell me that there was a key in that store or that there was access to the key to the robbers and
00:27:50
that they didn't go into the office looking for more money or valuables >> if that if if robbery was the motive.
00:27:57
Now, Michael Scott did get the um the positioning of the bodies correct. He he had a a good idea of that as well as he
00:28:06
did know that Amy was not on the body stack. He knew that that she she was in a separate area. The problem I have with
00:28:14
this statement, and this is exactly what the police said, they said, you know, he
00:28:17
got he got the body positioning right. That that's really tough to do. And I will give them that. But here's where I
00:28:24
have a problem. >> Mhm. >> One thing he did not get right is he didn't he wasn't able to fully describe
00:28:31
the layout of the store. So, yeah, maybe you could get the positionings of the bodies right, but how could you get the
00:28:38
positionings of where they were inside the store? You see what I'm saying with if you don't even know or understand the
00:28:45
layout of the store? >> Well, and there's a lot of things and we'll we'll get right back into uh not
00:28:51
only what they got right, but how they got those things right right after this quick beer break.
00:28:57
>> Going through the items that the confessions got right and the things that they got wrong. Uh, continuing on
00:29:03
that path here, I want to spend a little bit of time talking about this 38. You know, we had mentioned that Michael
00:29:09
Scott doesn't seem to know about a second gun. He never mentions anything about the 38. However, Robert is aware
00:29:16
of the 38. >> Um, and this is presented as a problem for these young men and for their their
00:29:23
eventual prison sentence, right? because this this supposed 38 which we know existed. However, the police are saying
00:29:32
this was a fact that they kept close to them that the people in the general public would not have known about that.
00:29:38
I I tend to disagree a little bit with that statement >> because as we had said, there had been
00:29:43
50 confessions. And one thing that the police state was with with anybody that seemed to have knowledge of the crime,
00:29:51
they went out and looked for the 38 because they had other confessors say that, you know, I dumped the gun here.
00:29:58
>> Well, and we also have four teenage boys and the murder victims were four teenage
00:30:03
girls. So we're talking about a lot and and now eight years have passed. So you have eight years of a not a small town.
00:30:11
I mean this was about uh half a million people in Austin at this in ' 91. >> But you have a lot of people in this
00:30:18
community talking about this. This was huge news for them. So there is a lot of talk. So there is a very good
00:30:26
possibility that they and not and and also we're not talking about just four kids that have not been
00:30:35
involved in this crime. We're talking about four teenage boys that were basically arrested or brought in for
00:30:41
questioning 8 days after the event. >> Yeah. Yeah. So they may have been told about the 38 then. I mean, if you're
00:30:48
sitting in a room eight years ago and somebody's asking you, "Well, what about the other gun? What about this uh wasn't
00:30:55
there a 38 involved?" And and you're saying at that time you don't know anything about it. Well, it's easy to
00:31:00
jump to that conclusion when your back's up against the wall and you're being you're being forced to give answers that
00:31:06
that you might not have any knowledge of. >> Well, and you got this detective, you
00:31:09
know, 2 in from your face and I mean, he might have bad breath. Who knows? But the fact of the matter is, you know, the
00:31:16
the main point of all these confessions that is so blatant is that yeah, they did get some stuff right,
00:31:24
>> but how did they get that stuff right? >> Right. >> They didn't just say something, you
00:31:29
know, uh a perfect example in the trailer is when he says, "Well, yeah, they were bound up by I want to say
00:31:36
electrical cord." Right. >> Right. And he goes, "Nope, that's not it." They got to majority of these right
00:31:43
answers by the the detectives kind of forcing it. >> Yeah. They're they're really you can
00:31:51
hear you can hear especially Michael Scott. You can hear him kind of guessing answers and then he's looking to them
00:31:57
for approval. You know, did I get that one right? It's almost like it's almost like a a kid in school hoping to get the
00:32:04
right answer from the teacher holding the textbook and and the teacher keeps asking questions and saying, "No, that's
00:32:10
not it. Try it again." And and he keeps changing his answers or modifying his answers to get closer to what the police
00:32:17
know to be true. Now, on that 38, we do have Robert who does claim that they dumped it somewhere. And of course, they
00:32:25
go and look for it. Now, mind you, it's eight years later. I have had I've heard
00:32:29
people say, "Well, this this proves that they're innocent." Well, the gun easily
00:32:33
could have disappeared from wherever they placed it eight years ago, >> right? >> Um but but again, we have this situation
00:32:40
where they are arriving at answers. These aren't answers that they walked in and sat down with. The other thing that
00:32:46
I have a problem with here is you still have two guys that haven't confessed to anything,
00:32:51
>> right? You have two guy You have two guys that claim to know very much about the crime and two guys that seem to know
00:32:57
nothing. And even when they are presented by investigators, well, we know you did it because so and so told
00:33:04
us this and told us that. They hold true and they sit there and say, "Nope, I wasn't there. I don't know what you're
00:33:10
talking about." The the other thing too regarding Michael Scott's confession is that part on the tape where he says, you
00:33:17
know, he's asked who was there with you, right? and and he he names two of the other people. He names, you know, I was
00:33:24
there with Maurice. I was there with Robert, >> and I was there with Forest. And he and
00:33:29
he says it in a way that he's like asking a question. >> I'm Ron Burgundy. >> Yeah. And they take it as, okay, well,
00:33:36
now we got the four people that we wanted to hear. We wanted to hear all four of those names. Why? Because you
00:33:42
have to go back to 1991 when they originally questioned these guys. They need Forest to be there. Why? Because
00:33:50
the reason why they picked up Maurice and started questioning him about the yogurt shop murders is because he said
00:33:55
he lent the gun to Forest >> and Forest had used it in the yogurt shop murders. That's what put them on
00:34:00
the radar. So, they really needed Maurice to be there as well as Forest even if those two didn't confess to
00:34:08
anything, >> right? And with Forest, I mean, it's pretty simple. I mean the his interview
00:34:13
um you know I I believe it's with Dline I found very compelling and and very believable because he's pretty much
00:34:21
saying look I was not going to lie and and and and especially not going to lie about this.
00:34:27
>> Mhm. >> And there's no way I did this so there is no way you're going to get get me to
00:34:32
say that. Now, this is what this is what's weird cuz the community and obviously the victim's parents are going
00:34:39
to start going, "Well, these guys are monsters, right? >> These guys are savages." And um and they
00:34:46
need to be locked away, you know, maybe death penalty. >> And and because a lot of people have a
00:34:52
really hard time wrapping their head around why would you confess to a crime that you didn't commit?
00:34:58
>> Mhm. And I would like to believe that that would would just not be possible with me.
00:35:04
>> Mhm. >> But you know, nobody would know this until you were actually in that situation.
00:35:09
>> I had a situation many years ago where I was uh observing a trial, right? And I
00:35:15
had I was close to at an attorney that was involved in the trial and they put one person on the stand. And this is
00:35:23
before it got to an actual jury trial because they were trying to determine if they should just plea this thing out or
00:35:30
if it should go to a jury trial. And one of the the the attorney was representing
00:35:36
a person who wanted it to go to a jury trial. The defendant wanted it to go to a jury because they believe they were
00:35:43
innocent. Now, I don't know what actually took place, but I was in the hallway and I overheard what the
00:35:49
attorney was saying to the defendant. The attorney was saying, "Let's plead this thing out." And the defendant was
00:35:56
adamant. No, it's got to go to a jury because I'm innocent. I'm not pleading to anything. Right?
00:36:01
>> And the attorney said, "Well, the reason why I'm saying we should plea to this is
00:36:04
because they're offering a very low plea bargain. You know, it's something small
00:36:09
like pay a fine and we pretend this never happened." Right. >> Right. He's saying, "Let's just take
00:36:14
this penalty and agree to it." Why? Because the the man that was just on the stand that was on he was on the stand
00:36:20
for almost the course of a whole day. And he said, "You do not want him to be on the stand in a jury trial." And the
00:36:27
defendant said, "Well, he's lying." And the attorney said, >> "He might be lying, but here's my
00:36:33
perception of this guy, okay? And this is what I believe a jury will think. This guy comes off as not being very
00:36:40
bright. he comes off almost to be too dumb to lie where he he he would be perceivably believable to a jury, an
00:36:50
audience of such of a jury. Uh, and I I found this to be something that I kind of kept in the back of my mind when I
00:36:58
was when I was reviewing stuff regarding Forest Wilbornne because we have a guy here that never confesses to anything,
00:37:05
right? Mhm. >> And and on top of that, we have we have we have people from Deline, we have
00:37:13
investigators from the original investigation that that they all claim that, you know, Forest is not a bright
00:37:19
guy. You know, he's not a smart guy. You know, he couldn't organize a a twocar parade. Mhm.
00:37:25
>> Uh he here's the way he strikes me and and I feel bad for the guy because not
00:37:29
only was he brought to and and faced charges regarding this crime, but on top of that then publicly he's put down for
00:37:37
for his mental capabilities or whatever they are, >> right? And I don't to look I think it's
00:37:43
just frankly insulting. I mean, he seems he seems like a a nice character. And at
00:37:48
the end of the day, uh he was smart enough not to confess to a crime he didn't commit.
00:37:55
>> And the big problem I have with his portion of this, okay, he is stating, "I was never there." He he never admits to
00:38:02
anything. Right now, you got two guys that place him at the scene. >> Now, okay. Now, wouldn't investigators
00:38:09
say, "Okay, let's make a deal with Forest. Let's make a deal with him because guess what? But for us, we know
00:38:15
you were there. We were told by these other guys that you sat out in the car. You didn't have any involvement with the
00:38:21
actual rape, the actual tying up of the girls, the actual robbery, the actual killing of anybody. You were just on the
00:38:28
outside of the building waiting for these other guys to return. And by their own omission, when they when they
00:38:34
returned to the vehicle or returned outside of the yogurt shop, you had fled the scene. You you clearly didn't want
00:38:41
any involvement with this, right, Forest? Right. So Forest, why don't you tell us the truth and we might be able
00:38:47
to grant you immunity or we might be able to grant you a slap on the wrist and and because had they got a third
00:38:54
confession that would have been that would have been paramount in this case. >> Right. Right. But Forest has something
00:39:00
going for him in this case. Yeah. You got two guys confessing and saying that you're involved in the case, but you got
00:39:06
another one of the individuals saying, "Oh yeah, by the way, he wasn't there cuz I wasn't there and this [ __ ] didn't
00:39:11
happen." Right. Right. The other thing too is I want to know more about the timeline. One thing that they don't go
00:39:20
for in the confession, they want to know details of the actual crime, but one thing that they failed to do is to wrap
00:39:26
these guys up and on a specific timeline. And what I mean by that is we have Michael Scott who says that the
00:39:32
whole thing took about 20 minutes from the time we entered the building to the time that we left the building. Well,
00:39:37
what do we know? We know that the doors were locked at 11:00 p.m. and we know that around midnight the flames were
00:39:43
seen and firefighters were responding to a to a fire call. Well, okay. So, that's
00:39:48
1 hour. Well, now let's go ahead and look at what the neighbor said. Remember, the neighbor had said that we
00:39:55
have a situation here where we get a summary of his report of that night. And it would be nice to have the full report
00:40:03
because the neighbor states that he had heard some popping noises, >> thought something was a noise was coming
00:40:10
from the roof. He went outside to investigate and that's when he saw the door propped open along with a fire.
00:40:16
Okay. Well, here's here's a little bit of an issue with that. What time did they enter the building? Could could we
00:40:23
could we have had them narrow that down during this confession? because that seems to me to be an important part of
00:40:30
it because it it may not line up with what the neighbor is saying. >> Well, I right, which I understand all
00:40:36
that, but at the end of the day, this confession doesn't mean [ __ ] to me on the idea that this all this information
00:40:44
was forcefed to him. And if you don't believe that, uh, one of the things is when they're talking about, oh, well,
00:40:50
then then I put a gun to this girl's head, right? M. >> And uh then the detective goes behind I
00:40:56
can't remember which one it was. Michael. He goes behind Michael's head and puts a freaking gun to his head.
00:41:02
>> Yeah. >> And and so then then the detective is on record saying, "Well, I didn't put a gun
00:41:08
to his head. I put my finger on his head." >> No. No. You You showed the suspect a
00:41:14
gun. You then put something on the back of his head. I've I've seen the video footage. It looks like you put a
00:41:20
freaking gun on his head. >> Yeah. And not only that, he walks behind Michael to do so. So, so Michael may not
00:41:26
have known even if it wasn't a gun, you would assume it would be a gun, you know,
00:41:31
>> right? And I understand that the community is outraged and that they want answers and all that stuff, but you are
00:41:37
making up a bunch of malarkey, right? M and uh and so then you know just to fast
00:41:43
forward we can't charge two of them because we don't have confessions and we don't have any forensic evidence linking
00:41:50
these individuals to the crime and maybe part of that is due to the arson but now
00:41:55
we're going to put these two men on trial and the other two are just going to be let go.
00:41:59
>> Yeah. So yeah, quick breakdown of that is we have Robert who confessed, Michael
00:42:04
who confessed. Okay. So they're in a whole heap of trouble. We have Maurice does not confess to anything. He's he's
00:42:11
originally charged. However, they could not get an actual indictment. They couldn't get anybody to bring it to
00:42:16
court because of a few things. He didn't confess and on top of that, the gun that
00:42:20
he was was found on his person 8 days after the crime did not match the ballistic test. So, he's he's released
00:42:28
because of that and never fully tried for for this crime. Now, we have Forest. Now, he's in the same boat. He did not
00:42:35
confess to the crime. And the thing that's going to get him off was remember he way back in the day back in 1991 8
00:42:43
days after the crime after they pick him up and they're talking to him he actually hooked him they hooked him up
00:42:49
to a polygraph which he passed >> on that day. This would be one of the reasons that the original investigators
00:42:56
would let him go. But this would also be a reason that they couldn't try him for
00:43:00
this eight years later. Well, and another thing that I find really interesting is as they're going through
00:43:06
this process, you you got Detective Jones and you got Detective Huckabe saying, "Hey, we we question these guys.
00:43:13
>> We know what's up. These guys shouldn't be looked at. Why the hell are you guys
00:43:18
bringing them to trial, >> right?" >> And and they and then they see, you know, and then obviously they get to see
00:43:23
the footage of their interrogation and realize this is, you know, just just watch it. It doesn't take a rocket
00:43:31
scientist to figure out that this this is awful detective work. >> So, Robert and Michael would go forward
00:43:37
and they would be charged with these crimes. Now, what takes place in their trial is uh Robert, they basically use
00:43:45
Michael's statement, his confession against Robert. And they use Robert's confession against Michael and they're
00:43:53
tried separately. However, not neither of those guys are called to the stand in those trials. So,
00:44:01
what takes place is you have Robert who is sentenced to death and it's later commuted to life because they they
00:44:07
decide that you know what, he was a teenager when the crime was committed and you can't, you know, you can't
00:44:12
charge a um a child and sentence them to death. Now, with with Michael, he's sentenced to life in prison.
00:44:22
What ends up happening is in 2006, these convictions are overturned because you you have we have the right to address
00:44:32
our people that accuse us of stuff. And because neither of these guys were called to the stand, they weren't able
00:44:38
to cross-examine what they had stated. Therefore, you have to overturn these charges.
00:44:45
>> All right. So 8 days after these crimes are committed that these teenage boys
00:44:50
are called in. 8 years later they are questioned again. Then they go on trial. They are put away, sentenced to life in
00:44:59
prison or death penalty which is then overturned and then several years of being in jail, they're released based
00:45:07
off of >> Yeah. They're not fully released. What they do is they they they hold them because they're going to try
00:45:15
them again, >> right? >> And they're now we're going to do it the right way is what we're going to do.
00:45:21
Well, they're being held for quite some time. >> Yeah. Of course, they don't make it.
00:45:25
It's just like with Adnan Sed, right? >> Mhm. >> You know, everybody got so excited,
00:45:31
right, that that, you know, he's going to get an actual trial. And I think, you know, the true crime community, uh,
00:45:38
whether or not you think he's innocent or guilty, everybody agrees that the trial was ridiculous. Right.
00:45:44
>> Right. And the evidence they had against this kid was ridiculous. >> Questionable.
00:45:47
>> Yeah. Very questionable. And so now we have a situation where he's just sitting.
00:45:52
>> Mhm. >> Right. >> He's sitting and waiting. Right. Basically, he's still in prison the
00:45:56
whole time, you know, you know, >> which is ridiculous. And the same thing's happening here.
00:46:00
>> Yeah. And not only that, you have the right to a speedy trial. And these guys
00:46:04
have already been in prison for quite some time. I'm sure they would like to be out, you know, while they wait for
00:46:09
their new trial, >> right? But during this holding time, what do we have? We get we get a little
00:46:15
forensic evidence. We get some DNA. >> Well, yeah. This all kind of comes to a close all the about the same time
00:46:22
because eventually the judge comes at the prosecutor and says, "Look, >> you've got to put together a case
00:46:28
against these guys and you got to do it soon. We're not just going to hold them forever while you wait to try them."
00:46:33
>> And they were ready to take and I I'm going to get the names wrong or or the order wrong, but they were ready to go
00:46:39
forward on the trial with one of the suspects. >> I believe it was Robert, >> right? And then with the other one, they
00:46:46
weren't ready. M. >> And so that was the thing was, well, if you guys aren't ready, well, screw you,
00:46:51
right? You know, if you're not ready, then you need to release this guy. And at the same time, like we said,
00:46:55
forensics comes up and then they take a DNA test. >> Yeah. They they have DNA technology that
00:47:01
was not available back to to them back in 1991. Now using this technology they they have
00:47:08
DNA and this is male DNA obviously and they are able to determine that the DNA that they found in Amy does not match
00:47:17
that of Robert. Now we have that makes a big problem with both of their confessions because they both said that
00:47:23
Robert raped Amy. Um, furthermore, this DNA does not match any of the four, >> right? And this becomes a big problem
00:47:32
cuz the only, you know, so the confession we know are wrong. >> We know that they they pushed him into
00:47:38
that, you know, they pushed Robert to claim that he raped the girl, which, you know, I think, um, would be a very
00:47:44
difficult thing to admit to doing. Um but nonetheless, you know, that that part of the story
00:47:53
doesn't line up, >> right? >> But now on top of that, we got five people. >> Well, yeah. Yeah. This is this is the
00:47:59
prosecutor pivoting and saying, "Okay, well, we can roll with that new evidence."
00:48:04
>> Right. Right. Yeah. Instead of going, "Hey, let's try to find the truth. Hey,
00:48:07
let's just make up this, you know, fictitious person." You we we have, you know, in this case, we have pretend rape
00:48:13
and we have fictitious people. And now you you there was no mention in 1991 of of a fifth person.
00:48:21
>> Police never there was a never a fifth person. Then all of a sudden now there's a fifth
00:48:26
person. These guys are still guilty. These guys are still guilty. There's just a fifth person we never heard of.
00:48:32
>> I mean this is just ridiculous. So what then happens is they're released. >> Yeah. in in 2009 uh they are released
00:48:43
and um rightfully so and the case does not die there. I mean, it does not end there because what would end up coming
00:48:51
out later would be that we would have the attorneys, the two defense attorneys, they come out and they say,
00:48:58
"You know what? There is evidence that there is a second and a possible third male DNA that was found at the scene."
00:49:07
>> Right? >> And we had always we had always suspected that more than one of the
00:49:11
girls was actually sexual assaulted, >> right? >> And the that's what the defense
00:49:15
attorneys are saying. Now, the prosecutor and law enforcement have never outwardly stated that. They've
00:49:21
always stuck to there's been one set of DNA that did not match any of the four guys. Therefore, there must have been a
00:49:27
fifth guy there. >> Yeah. But once they do the DNA testing, they have to present that evidence to
00:49:31
the defense teams. >> Well, and on top of that, these def these defense attorneys are saying not
00:49:36
only did this second and possible third DNA that was found not, you know, it didn't match these two guys, it didn't
00:49:44
match any of the four, right? So now, how many people are you going to start claiming were were there committing this
00:49:49
crime? >> And now and right and now we have two individuals that were arrested and spent
00:49:53
time in jail and they can go after um >> restitution. Yeah, they could go after restitution. The the the issue here
00:50:00
though is the state of Texas has a clause basically stating that just to be released from prison or to have an to
00:50:09
have an a conviction overturned does not mean that you are due restitution. You have to be proven innocent, which is
00:50:18
going to be very hard to do, especially when you have these false and law enforcement and a prosecutor
00:50:26
that still think that these confessions are valid, >> right? But you took the chance on doing
00:50:31
the DNA test >> and it didn't match, right? The the the glove don't fit. You must have quit,
00:50:37
right? Um so I think that's the proof. That's the proof that you're innocent. Who cares about the false confession?
00:50:44
Because not only did we have these two false confessions, we had what any, you know, 50 well 50 to 60 reported. I mean,
00:50:52
so it's it's just basically, you know, it's it makes our system seem like such a joke. And I'm sure there's people
00:51:00
listening in other countries that's going, "What the hell is wrong with the America's?" Well, we have law
00:51:05
enforcement down there that still want to try these guys for for this crime, which is
00:51:09
>> well, and that's the other thing is the when these guys get out of prison, right? They say this ain't over
00:51:16
>> because 10 years from now, they might come knocking at our door. >> And and that's kind of why they're like
00:51:22
actually moving forward with, you know, trying to prove that they're innocent so
00:51:26
we don't have to deal with this anymore. >> One of the one of the people that they
00:51:30
suspected is actually dead now. He's passed away. Very interesting story. >> So in 2010, this is Maurice Pierce.
00:51:37
Remember, he was the one that they thought was the mastermind of this whole crime that organized the whole thing.
00:51:43
And in December of 2010, he's pulled over by a Austin police officer and and well, two police officers. I apologize.
00:51:53
Now, his family would claim that that because he was imprisoned, and let's say imprisoned, because he was held for
00:52:00
quite some time while they were trying to bring him him to trial, even though they ultimately did not.
00:52:06
>> Um, he's stating, you know, that they have he has some kind of anxiety and all
00:52:11
kinds of issues from having been what he believes is harassed by the police, >> right? And um there's a situation here
00:52:19
where he's pulled over and this this traffic stop does not go well for anybody. He freaks out and he takes off
00:52:27
on freak out. >> He takes off on foot and eventually one of the officers catches up to him and
00:52:33
now we've got a fight going >> and during the course of this fight, Maurice pulled a knife off of the
00:52:39
officer and he stabbed the officer in the neck. The officer then shot Maurice, which
00:52:46
>> Don't Yeah, don't bring a knife to a gunfight. >> Well, he didn't even bring the knife,
00:52:51
first of all. >> Well, don't take the guy's knife that has a gun. >> But there's all there's all kinds of bad
00:52:56
problems here. The the Thankfully, the officer survived, and I don't lay any fault on the officer. I I believe he he
00:53:02
has to defend himself, and I think he did the right thing. The only problem is, would Maurice have had these issues
00:53:09
had he not lived this type of life? had he not gone down. >> Yeah. But you know what came first, the
00:53:15
chicken or the egg? I mean, what we do know was he was carrying around a gun in a mall,
00:53:20
>> right? When he was a kid. >> When he was a kid, not when he was not on the track traffic stop,
00:53:24
>> right? But what I'm saying is like it's, you know, he was kind of doing this [ __ ] way before, you know. So, the
00:53:30
moral of the story, don't do [ __ ] and you won't have a [ __ ] life. >> Yeah. He put himself in harm's way.
00:53:36
>> Okay. So, we have three of the four still alive. And like we've talked about before, we had these 50 to 60
00:53:42
confessions. So, uh, what we do want to bring up is that we had a very odd confession by a guy that we already
00:53:50
talked about in this case. >> Yeah. And one of those is from Kenneth McDuff. Now, he was the broomstick
00:53:56
killer. He was the one that we said was possibly in the area at the time of the crime.
00:54:01
>> He would have been very capable of this crime because he killed many, many women
00:54:06
and he did all of that in the state of Texas. >> Yeah. and he sometimes worked with other
00:54:10
indivi individuals. >> Yeah. And one thing that he did that that that is kind of interesting here,
00:54:16
right? He never admits to anything, right? He never confesses to any of his crimes. He's they had to bring him to
00:54:23
trial for every one of these crimes and he's convicted of them. And it's not until leading up to his his execution
00:54:32
>> that he starts talking to police. Now, this is just within days or weeks of his
00:54:37
execution. Now, he's executed November 17th, 1998. >> During this time, right around this
00:54:44
time, there's an anonymous source that comes forward that tells an Austin TV station, this is KV U
00:54:52
>> TV station, that McDuff confessed to the yogurt shop murders. Okay. And but they
00:55:00
also go on to say that that investigators are having a problem with this because he got certain key details
00:55:06
wrong about this crime, >> right? But it's also years and years it was seven years later.
00:55:11
>> Now let's keep in mind though >> and a guy that did multiple murders. >> He was asked by the original
00:55:17
investigators. He was questioned back in '92 by the >> original Jones. Yeah. >> And and he actually tells them now now
00:55:24
at this point he hasn't really confessed to anything, right? But he tells the two
00:55:28
of them, "Had I done that murder, I would have confessed to it. Why? Because I would have been proud of it, right?"
00:55:33
>> You know, that's this is the kind of a-hole that we're dealing with here. >> Right
00:55:37
>> now, here's where I have a big problem with the whole Kenneth McDuff thing, right?
00:55:41
>> His name. >> First of all, it's an anonymous source tells a TV station. >> Right. Right. Sounds a little bullish.
00:55:47
>> It's very fishy. First of all, we know from doing this show for so long and from the people listening to the show
00:55:53
for so long, >> TV stations, newspapers >> suck. >> They make things up sometimes.
00:55:59
>> You know, it would be very easy to say, you know, we cannot we cannot tell you
00:56:03
our source, but someone came forward and stated that he confessed to these crimes. I mean, that would be big news.
00:56:09
That would sell papers. That would get people to tune in to your TV station. The other problem that I have with this
00:56:16
crime is but leading up to his execution, he ends up admitting to everything. He ends up leading them to
00:56:22
bodies that they hadn't found yet, >> right? >> Why wouldn't he just confess to this one
00:56:27
as well? He he he stood to gain nothing or lose nothing by confessing to this. >> Well, it sounds like he did confess to
00:56:35
it, though. >> No, he he didn't. Law enforcement would come out and actively say he did not
00:56:40
confess to this. M >> it was only the media that stated that McDuff had actually confessed to the
00:56:45
yogurt shop murders. >> It's simply put, they have DNA, test his DNA. >> Yeah. >> Well, you have you have the um the head
00:56:56
of the Texas Department of Justice, his name is Glenn Castleberry. >> He actually says in a press conference,
00:57:02
>> Old Castleberry, >> he says when he's asked, "Did Kenneth McDuff confess to the yogurt shop
00:57:08
murders?" He says no, he did not. I've never heard that from anyone that McDuff said anything.
00:57:14
>> No reliable source. >> Exactly. >> Look, the the maybe he didn't confess to it because of
00:57:21
their ages. You know, you have two 17year-olds, a 15-year-old and a 13year-old. And maybe that's one of the
00:57:27
reasons why he didn't confess. Again, you have DNA. Test his DNA. >> He He had been convicted of killing
00:57:33
teenagers before. >> Right. I understand he was convicted of it, but what I'm saying is maybe that's
00:57:38
one of the reasons he I I would have to go back and look at all his confessions to different cases. You know what I
00:57:45
mean? So, like did he constyold woman? But did he, you know, so which which crimes did he commit that he that
00:57:54
he confessed to? And what were those ages of those victims? And maybe he's just not going to confess to uh the
00:58:01
crimes against teenagers. >> A couple of thoughts on McDuff. You know, yesterday you and I were talking
00:58:06
off mic and you had stated, you know, when we went through the description of the of the man that was seen in the army
00:58:13
fatigue jacket, >> right, >> that was standing in line and he ultimately just or orders a soda and
00:58:19
he's acting weird, right? >> Um, that description did match, you know, we talked about how it it vaguely
00:58:25
matched Kenneth McDuff. >> The issue is it matched Kenneth McDuff if McDuff were about 20 years younger.
00:58:32
you know that he it he is a white man. He does have the pointy nose. He has the clear deep voice, the clean shaven with
00:58:38
dark hair. You know, he matches all >> no scruff. >> The only problem is McDuff is about 63
00:58:45
and a half, 6'4. >> And and when I So he's about 4 in taller than what Croft described the man in the
00:58:53
army fatigue jacket as. So that's an issue. He's also about 20 years older than and I don't think that you would
00:58:59
have mistaken his age >> because at the time that McDuff was out and running around, not only was he
00:59:05
killing women, but he was also drinking heavily and smoking crack. So, I imagine
00:59:10
that he probably after serving after serving almost 20 years in prison, having a crack addiction, I'm guessing
00:59:18
he he does not look like a young 45, you know what I mean? And on top of that, he's balding in the front and balding in
00:59:25
the back by this time. So I don't think you would mistake him for >> no party in the front. No party in the
00:59:30
back. >> No party at all with Kenneth McDuff. >> Yeah. >> The other problem I have with him being
00:59:35
the person that committed this crime. It he his thing is he would have extended periods of rape and torture on
00:59:45
his victims. And what I mean by that is every one of his victims, he abducted them from one location, and took them
00:59:53
with him somewhere, spent a good amount of time with them before he killed them.
00:59:59
>> Mhm. >> My issue with this crime is Kenneth McDuff, I don't think, would have had
01:00:05
the ability to walk away from these victims. I don't think he would have been able to kill them on site and leave
01:00:12
them there. I think he would have seen this as an opportunity to take four girls with him someplace else and do,
01:00:19
you know, his whatever he does. >> Yeah. Which I see your theory. I think the the problem is um when you take in,
01:00:27
you know, when you take over this uh yogurt shop that maybe there was something that happened uh where he had
01:00:35
to change his plans. It's >> all I'm saying is that, you know, these parents deserve some answers. Uh the
01:00:44
victims deserve uh justice and and and they wouldn't get it if it was picked up. I mean, the just I mean, the justice
01:00:51
would already be done, but at least we'd have some closure. So, and I I don't know tons about DNA, so it's maybe it's
01:00:59
an issue where they don't want to test it too much because then eventually it goes away. But, uh, I I think he's
01:01:05
somebody that I think they should at least test. >> Well, and it's a little unclear here,
01:01:10
too, because we've we've had these very general statements that come out regarding this case because we have two
01:01:16
people. What even though I don't think it's likely that Kenneth McDuff did this crime
01:01:22
>> and as well as I don't think that it's likely that the fast food killer did this crime and and one point of that
01:01:27
being that that he never raped any of his other victims. uh there was there was rape that happened in this
01:01:33
situation. I'm not saying he's above it or that he's not capable of it. It just doesn't seem to fit what the two of them
01:01:39
did time and time again. >> Right. >> The problem here though that I have is the immediate question goes, well, did
01:01:45
they did they test the DNA against McDuff or against the fast food killer? And we get these very general statements
01:01:52
from people very close to the case, investigators, authors, media people, right? Basically what
01:01:59
their statement is is that they've tested this DNA against hundreds of suspects. So anybody that they thought
01:02:06
could have been involved in this crime has been tested. Well, that's a very blanketed statement. I would love to
01:02:11
hear someone just outright say Kenneth McDuff, we tested it against his, it didn't match,
01:02:15
>> right? >> You know, uh Reed the fast food killer, we tested it against his and there is no
01:02:20
match. >> Yeah. I think with Reed there there doesn't seem to be as many connections.
01:02:27
Now, we have a public and we have a law enforcement that is still hung up on these four guys. They still want to find
01:02:33
a way to charge them. We have the original investigators. >> Well, it's very much like like we said,
01:02:39
West Memphis 3. There's a innocent side for West Memphis 3. There's a guilty side.
01:02:44
>> Same thing with the Austin 4. >> We have the original investigators and we have attorneys and people close to
01:02:50
the case that are saying, "You know what? If if you want to solve this thing, >> Mhm. It's very solvable because we have
01:02:57
DNA and maybe at some point that this hits on some computer somewhere else in the country or maybe even in the great
01:03:03
state of Texas and we figure out who did this that way. But in time if we if we sit around and wait for that, we're
01:03:09
doing nothing productive in the in the process. >> So what these investigators, original
01:03:14
investigators and attorneys, people close to the case are saying the way to solve this case is to go back and review
01:03:20
what you know. Throw those confessions out. go back and review the evidence and see where it takes you. Well, we have a
01:03:28
big chunk of evidence right here that points to who committed this crime. Now, we talked about police interviewing the
01:03:36
customers that came in that day. So, we have an issue here, though, because I don't know how with it being 1991 and
01:03:44
they're not being surveillance, you know, I don't know how they they interviewed all of these people. They
01:03:50
must have did a a a public call to action and say, you know, if you were here on this day, come in so we can talk
01:03:57
to you. Now, they can check certain sales to verify if people were there or not. And the thing here is though, they
01:04:04
have two people that that they never speak to. Two people that are unidentified and that's it for that
01:04:10
entire day. And who are those two guys? Those are the two guys that the married couple said that they saw still in the
01:04:16
store just minutes before closing time. the two weirdos without yogurt. >> Yeah. They're sitting in a booth and
01:04:24
they're drinking cans of soda. >> So, we have all kinds of issues here. The first being that the law enforcement
01:04:30
has never publicly laid out the description of these two men. They've left it very vague, which I have a
01:04:37
problem with. It's 25 years later. Let's let's release that description. If if that married couple gave you a good
01:04:44
description, let's release it. Why did those guys not come forward? Okay. And first of all, I want to throw in another
01:04:51
thing here. We have that that other unidentified man that was in the army jacket that was seen just around 10
01:04:57
o'clock that night, he had ordered a soda as well. Now, we get a description of him from that former police officer,
01:05:05
Officer Croft. Now, one could one could assume that if you have two guys later that are claimed to be the only two that
01:05:12
were not identified, yet you have this guy in the army jacket that earlier was in the store and he's not been
01:05:18
identified. Well, he must have been one of those two men would be what I would surmize.
01:05:23
>> He doesn't have to be. He could have been sent in first to case the place and
01:05:28
then two other guys are sent in later and they're kind of observing everything, but they're going to be the
01:05:33
ones to take over. You open up the back door and then the army the army savage guy that just goes takes a pee. Uh
01:05:42
>> well he comes through because what we do have evidence of and and this would be
01:05:46
another thing that I think law enforcement has to come out with. >> Mhm. >> Is do you have DNA from two people or do
01:05:52
you have DNA for three people? >> You're exactly right and and I agree with that statement. But here's where
01:05:58
here's where I arrive at the conclusion that the man in the army jacket is one of the two men that was seen right at
01:06:04
closing time. >> And that being that we have statements from law enforcement saying that there
01:06:09
were only two unidentified customers for that day. Yet we have two separate stories taking place. One with two guys,
01:06:17
one with one guy. So that would be three unidentified customers for that day. What they're stating is there's two. So,
01:06:24
I'm arriving at the conclusion that the army fatigue jacket guy is one of those people seen sitting at the booth
01:06:30
drinking a can of soda right before closing time. >> Mhm. >> The other thing that you and I have
01:06:35
discussed too is what is the motive here? Well, the motive becomes very important when you cannot determine what
01:06:40
actually took place. Right. We we we both agree that we think the motive here was rape.
01:06:46
>> Is that correct? >> Yeah, I think it was sexual. Yeah. >> We we don't think that this the motive
01:06:50
was robbery. Why? because of the small amount of money. Two, they never broke into the office. And and three, they
01:06:56
could have just taken the money and left had everything gone their way. Now, one
01:07:00
would argue that it was a robbery gone wrong. I get the argument. However, what I'm stating here is that I see a
01:07:07
situation where you have two teenage girls closing a store on a Friday night. All right, they they claim that it was
01:07:14
very important to go back and talk to every customer from that day. I get that. But what I'm getting at is I
01:07:20
wonder if they talked to the customers from the previous Friday. If if the in fact the motive was rape, somebody knew
01:07:27
that that store was being operated by two teenage girls that were unattended by anybody else. They they see this is
01:07:35
the opportunity. >> Yeah. But if they didn't question anybody on other days that attended the
01:07:40
yogurt shop, uh that information is long gone and those witnesses are long gone.
01:07:45
And if they did come forward, how reliable would they be? >> That's correct. That's correct. The But
01:07:50
the thing here is I'm I'm going to stick on motive for a while. Okay. The other issue is if if the motive was in fact
01:07:56
rape, well then there was a murder that was used to cover up this rape. And furthermore, a fire that was set to
01:08:03
cover up the rape and the murders. Now, what we do know, one bit of evidence that we do know is that the lighter
01:08:09
fluid that was used to set the fire was not present in that store until this robbery took place. Therefore, whoever
01:08:16
did this crime brought the accelerant into the store with them. Right. >> This seems a little pre-planned to me. I
01:08:23
wouldn't bring lighter fluid to a robbery. Well, that's why there's a lot of speculation in the the city of Austin
01:08:30
that for some reason that this was some kind of insurance fraud or or or some kind of scandal like that. Yeah. And
01:08:38
I've I've heard those arguments. The thing that that I have a problem with on those is that why stick around and do
01:08:44
the rape then if that's if that's the actual case. You know what I mean? >> There's some sick individuals.
01:08:50
>> Yes. I I get that there's plenty of sick individuals, but but a job is a job. You
01:08:54
see what I'm saying? It it would make more sense to me. >> No, that's that's called a crime, not a
01:08:59
job. >> Crime. >> They're hired to commit this crime. >> Mhm. >> And it would make more sense to me to
01:09:06
get in there, do the job, and leave rather than to spend a amount of time in the crime scene.
01:09:12
>> Yeah. And normally I like to go down those, you know, conspiracy rabbit holes. This just seems
01:09:17
>> Captain Conspiracy. Captain for the last time people I was I was just trying to
01:09:23
be nice to Alex Jones and say I was fans of his captain doesn't like >> I really do not like Alex Jones. I just
01:09:29
watched a couple sometimes I'm just glad that we got a brain up Captain Conspiracy for a second because
01:09:35
sometimes yes I go down a couple rabbit holes and I watch his videos. I do believe he has an agenda. I do not like
01:09:41
that agenda. I think a lot of the stuff he brings up is complete malarkey horshit. Alex Jones, bad jib. Bad jib. I
01:09:50
do not like his jib. I I I'm just saying that overall I don't think he's like some horrible person and deserves to die
01:09:57
or anything. I think he has kids and and he's trying to make a living and and I think he's he's his agenda is money and
01:10:06
all this other [ __ ] you know, he says a bunch of [ __ ] for my Anyways, >> what the captain's trying to say here is
01:10:12
that the insurance scheme, the insurance conspiracy is far-fetched, right, at best, right?
01:10:18
>> It's farfetched like a lot of Alex Jones's ideas. >> Yeah. And so that would be a whole it'
01:10:23
take us a whole another day or two to explain that whole conspiracy to you. So we we don't believe in it and we don't
01:10:29
need to go through why. >> All right, go on. >> Yeah. Back to my rant. So I think here
01:10:34
all I'm trying to say right I just want to go into the short quick theory of it right the two guys that were seen in the
01:10:40
shop just before closing I think they were sitting at the booth I don't think anybody ever reentered the building
01:10:46
afterwards I think that they one of them got up locked the front door the other one approached the register if you look
01:10:53
at a diagram of the actual crime scene they were sitting in the booth that was closest to the register at the crime
01:11:00
scene photos that are shown later. That booth, that table is the only table that
01:11:06
sits there with an empty napkin dispenser. Right. They we we said that the the women the couple had stated that
01:11:12
they had saw the girls refilling the napkin dispensers. >> Right. >> The only one that wasn't filled was the
01:11:18
one at this table. The only one that didn't have a chair put on top of the table was this table as well. I think
01:11:24
they got up and they took control of the situation. I think they were targeting the two teenage girls that were there. I
01:11:31
think the motive was sexual. I think that unfortunately the other two younger victims just happened to be there that
01:11:37
night. That was a variable that they had not planned on. I do think that the Army
01:11:41
fatigue jacket guy did go back to the restrooms at some point because that area is blocked off from the rest of the
01:11:46
store. He wanted to double check that there was actually nobody back there. There wasn't a male manager or
01:11:51
additional staff back there that night. They wanted to carry out what they were going to do. Mhm.
01:11:57
>> I also think that the what kept throwing me off was this back door situation.
01:12:02
Okay. Because in the confession of these guys, they state that they had left the
01:12:05
back door open and came in later and police and firefighters find this back door open. The thing here is what I was
01:12:13
able to figure out last night is that the the building did have a sprinkler system. I think that this back door was
01:12:19
just basically left open to let that fire burn as long as it possibly could to burn off as much evidence as possible
01:12:27
before that sprinkler system would kick on and maybe possibly put out the fire >> and possibly just the way they left as
01:12:33
well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Could have just been happen. >> We're going to leave here and and and
01:12:37
just, you know, leave it open. It makes some sense. Yeah. >> Now, one one thing here, Captain, I'll
01:12:43
throw a whole little conspiracy since you like him so much, right? All right. So, we have the neighbor the
01:12:49
neighbor statement. I would love to hear what that full statement is or read that
01:12:53
full statement because I have some problems with that statement. This guy says he never hears any screams. He says
01:12:59
he hears popping noises and he goes outside to investigate and he sees the door open and that's when he sees the
01:13:05
fire. Now, I want to know how long it was from the time that he said he heard the popping noises to the time that he
01:13:13
went outside and saw the fire, right? Because we know that it took some time for this event to take place.
01:13:20
>> If he went out immediately and saw the fire, that when then that story is complete malarkey, that would make no
01:13:27
sense because then he would have he would have seen the killers leaving the building, fleeing the building, which he
01:13:33
did not say that he saw anybody. >> Mhm. Here's a little thing here. Uh I hope that they tested the DNA of that
01:13:39
store owner next door. >> Yeah. Okay. I think you're reaching there, but uh yeah, I'm sure I think at
01:13:46
the end of the day, they have this DNA and any possible suspects instead of trying to get people to falsely confess.
01:13:53
>> How about you just test that DNA? >> Yeah, that's really the only good thing in this entire story here is that they
01:13:59
have DNA. I think they'll catch this person or persons eventually. >> Well, hopefully. I I believe this family
01:14:05
and um and the victims, like I said, uh deserve justice and and deserve some answers. All right, wrapping up, we have
01:14:11
our recommended reading for this week. It is Wolf Boys by Dan Slater. You can pick that up by going to our website.
01:14:17
This is the true story of a couple teenagers that joined the Zetas, which is one of the worst, most brutal Mexican
01:14:24
drug cartels out there. You have a a story about a good naturatured teenager that turns into a feared assassin. So,
01:14:30
that's Wolf Boys by Dan Slater. Go to truegar.com, click on the recommended page and check
01:14:35
that out. You can purchase that along with anything else through the Amazon banner.
01:14:40
>> And follow us on social media at true crime garage. We are on Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, YouTube, you our
01:14:48
YouTube channel is uh >> blowing up. >> It's starting to blow up. But uh the Instagram bet I won and now we did a
01:14:56
double or nothing. So, if you're not on Instagram, not following us, it's a good
01:15:00
way to see kind of the characters of each case. We kind of try to post a bunch of pictures of each case, uh, you
01:15:06
know, different crime scene details and stuff like that, so you kind of get a visual idea of what's going on in these
01:15:12
cases, so it's not just our nasely drones. >> That's right. All right. Thank you all
01:15:16
for listening and thank you, Captain. We will see everybody back here in the garage next week. And until then, be
01:15:21
good, be kind, and don't litter. >> And don't smitter. Smash. Heat. Heat. [Applause]
01:15:42
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