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subject to credit approval see store or ashley.com for details [Music] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage Wherever
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You Are are whatever you were doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who was
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right the first time when he was wrong the last time ladies and gentlemen the captain well If Loving You Is Wrong I
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around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime [Music] all right
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okay all right okay [Music] forever it's been over 30 years since 18-year-old Denise flum disappeared from
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connorville Indiana in 1986 she went out to retrieve her purse that she lost the night before at a
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party and she never came home her vehicle was found the following day and we as we pointed out in episode one are
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missing a lot of important statements one in particular is the property owner of where the party was the night before
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I'm curious as to why we've never heard and my guess is maybe the individual or individuals was never questioned but I'm
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curious as to why we've never heard one simple thing in this case ask that person who threw the party or the
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persons that threw the party did you see Denise on the day that she went missing
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she left her home to retrieve her purse what we don't know after they find her car the following day four miles away
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from where the party was hosted did she go missing before she arrived to look for her purse did she go missing at the
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location where she was looking for that purse or did she fail to find it and go missing and something happened to her on
00:05:01
her way home well like we said there was over a hundred people at this party a step that law enforcement could have
00:05:09
took early on in this investigation is come that Monday go to the high school and start questioning a lot of
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individuals and I think they would have gathered a lot of information just a couple days after she went missing
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because there were not notes and documents that were kept during the early stages of this investigation it
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gets very hard to determine who was spoken to and who and what statements they gave at that time we have some
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suspects here to discuss even though we have a big lack of evidence the suspects
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here are both local and one of interest that is from out of town but one of the things that seems Paramount in this case
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or at least has remained so throughout the three decades that Denise has been missing is the
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local rumors the local rumors and the short of it is these guys or some guys got away with it they did something to
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Denise flum and they got away with it now it's hard to say exactly who these guys are from top to bottom the list
00:06:22
could be longer than what we're going to present here but we have a short list of
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some very good sus ects at least circumstantial suspects one we talked about in episode one his name is Shawn
00:06:36
mclung Shan McClung is Denise flam's previous boyfriend they broke up in early March Denise goes missing in late
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March another person of interest is Benny Johnson Benny Johnson graduated a couple years before Denise and it's my
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understanding Captain stop me if I'm wrong but really pinpointing the location of that party and who the land
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owner was or is of that party right was a little difficult but everything I reviewed I keep getting the sense that
00:07:15
the property belonged to the Johnson family so Benny Johnson graduates a couple years before Denise he's known to
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all the locals all the teenagers and everybody in their early 20s at the time his father the Johnson family goes way
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back they're Farmers they own a lot of properties in the area and they own a lot of properties that surround
00:07:39
Connorsville Indiana yeah so the property would have been owned by Benny's father Ben Johnson another
00:07:44
person of interest is Benny Johnson's cousin who it appears that they were rather close and were regularly together
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yeah I don't think locals view him as a suspect on his own but believe that Randy was involved because of Benny so
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his name is Randy Kates and again he is Benny's cousin then our third suspect is
00:08:08
a man named Larry Hall now longtime listeners of this show May recognize that name and people that watch the
00:08:17
Apple TV show Blackbird will most certainly know that name Larry Hall is a suspected serial killer from wall bash
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Indiana who trolled around the Midwest in these Civil War reenactments he is Accused again a suspected serial killer
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never have has been convicted of murdering anyone but he is serving life in prison based on kidnapping charges
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yes and they've had law enforcement agents that have studied Larry's movements and studied the cases that
00:08:51
they believe that Larry possibly could be connected to and the numbers reach up into the 50 s which would make him one
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of the most prolific zero killers and Captain you said something to me that's very interesting when we took our little
00:09:07
break here everything I say is interesting well this one went to the top of the list for today anyway okay
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good that this I cannot think of another case you said to you said to me that here we have this case where we have
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three suspects now keep in mind it could also be somebody we have we don't know that
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that's not name that we did not name but here we have three suspects there's not evidence to suggest
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one is a better suspect than the others and we all three of them at some point and in or some form has confest to
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killing Denise flum three really good suspects that you could make an argument somebody could bring an argument to the
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table i' go well that's a good argument but three good suspects all have confessed in some form or fashion two of
00:10:01
them have confessed to law enforcement and then we have confessions from Benny Johnson and or Randy Kates to people
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that are outside of law enforcement these would be people that know these two individuals and they are often
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referred to as drunken confessions so again we have Sean mclung the ex-boyfriend he confesses to law
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enforcement we then have Benny Johnson that has the drunken confessions his cousin Randy has drunken confessions not
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that he's the murderer but that he had some involvement and then we have a confession by Mr Hall a suspected serial
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killer let's start with Shawn mclung the former boyfriend now I shared a similar
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opinion with Ted mcquin that maybe he's easy to move on from again you want to check his alibi
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and confirm his Alibi before you move on from him but there's a lot to suggest that it may have been a mutual breakup
00:11:08
that Shawn is out living his best life separately from his ex-girlfriend Denise but it's not it doesn't appear until
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years later that people become more suspicious of Shawn and probably rightfully so so people are concerned
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that he wasn't looked at very good in the early stages of the investigation and then he moves away to Arizona I was
00:11:35
trying to get an exact date or at least a week narrow it down to a week of when he moved because depending on what
00:11:42
reports you review it says later that year he moved to Arizona well if later that year means she goes missing in
00:11:49
March and he didn't move till November that makes some sense but if it was within a a couple days or a week of her
00:11:57
going missing that would be very suspicious to me considering that he's a senior in high school at that time and
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he still has his pending graduation coming up later that year my guess here as Captain is that he went and moved to
00:12:13
Arizona after graduating high school that year the reason why this becomes important one obviously it looks like he
00:12:22
might be running and hiding from something that he did back in Connorsville Indiana but two while he is
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in Arizona well he's not a saint he breaks the law and in fact he ends up getting charged with what is reported as
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racking up some domestic violence arrest yeah so what law enforcement is not obviously privy to is how these
00:12:48
individuals will turn out so when you have new detectives looking at this case 30 some years later you go well Shawn
00:12:56
moved away so that's suspicious that's a red flag and he is abusive towards women
00:13:04
so that's a red flag so then we got to go back and say okay well he had this Alibi and when new detectives look at
00:13:11
this case they're not able to confirm that alibi and then on top of that Sean is saying well look we were friends and
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it was a mutual breakup but then when you find out well Denise wasn't faithful so I don't
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know how how much that seems like a ual breakup and there'd be some reason that sea would be upset with her and
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rightfully so I mean they had a relationship and she was unfaithful but you could see why he would be upset with
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her so what he was telling law enforcement is oh we were friends and and everything was fine that's not the
00:13:48
correct story and then on top of that you got another red flag because she's sending letters at the time saying hey I
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I made a mistake and I'm I'm fearful we know this guy is abusive towards women so it's very possible in this three-year
00:14:04
relationship he had with Denise that possibly was he was possibly abusive towards her as well I'll say some things
00:14:12
in defense of Shawn mclung here before we get into some other things that might be Point more towards his guilt in his
00:14:20
defense he doesn't stay gone from Connorsville Indiana forever he eventually moves back and in fact I
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found some reports to indicate that he may have bounced between the two locations more than what's generally
00:14:35
reported a lot of the reports make it sound like he went out to Arizona stayed gone for a couple decades and then came
00:14:42
back the one report I found indicates that he had residents from time to time in Indiana and from time to time in
00:14:52
Arizona so he seems to have bounced back and forth a little more frequently so so if he was running from
00:15:00
something and I'm not saying that he wasn't but if he was running and attempting to hide from something he
00:15:05
didn't stay gone forever he kept coming back to Connorsville yeah and also in Sean's defense he keeps coming back to
00:15:12
Connorsville and there's really no local rumors that Shawn confessed to anybody and the other thing too while there
00:15:19
might be local suspicion like the captain said he doesn't seem to have confessed to anybody he also doesn't
00:15:26
return to Connorsville because they've named other suspects or they've had other Persons of Interest publicly or
00:15:32
are hot on a lead of somebody right like the if he left Connorsville with any stank on him then there's nothing to
00:15:40
have removed that before he decides to return now something that goes against sha mclung however not something that
00:15:50
you could use in the court of law when questioned by police once he's back in Connorsville Indiana he does fail
00:15:57
according to their their report that he does fail a voice stress test again this
00:16:04
is years later yeah they bring him in for questioning in 2018 now again in his defense he's been Cooperative with law
00:16:14
enforcement correct and he fails this stress test and again according to to the report the things that really stand
00:16:22
out or the things that they want us to know that stand out to them is they believe the questions the important
00:16:28
question questions that he failed on were do you know what happened to Denise flum do did you kill Denise flum that's
00:16:36
where they're saying that their test indicates to them their interpretation of the results of that test is that he
00:16:46
was not truthful on those answers yeah I don't know how these tests actually operate or what the test indicates in
00:16:55
the documentary it makes it seem like uh a wavering in their voice but a lot of people could have a
00:17:04
wavering in their voice if you're asking somebody Point directly did you murder your ex-girlfriend one thing that I
00:17:12
thought was rather off-putting and this was something that the documentary did a
00:17:17
really good job of is when the documentarians would go out to interview somebody or attempt to interview them
00:17:24
for the first time they're walking up to them and it's a surprise to the person that they're going to interview right
00:17:32
and they did a great job of having the camera person hang back hang back a little bit so this person may not know
00:17:41
that we're going to be recording that we will at least get to hear their answers
00:17:46
when they are first engaged by the documentarians now sha McClung answers some of their
00:17:54
questions he seems to be he's weird because he seems standoffish in the beginning and then he seems eager to try
00:18:02
to tell them some of the story or at least the portion of the story that he knows which according to his words is he
00:18:08
doesn't know what happened to Denise he doesn't really know what was going on with her leading up to her disappearance
00:18:15
and I believe he even says that when she first turned up missing he thought that
00:18:20
maybe she just took off or went off with some friends he says we weren't hanging
00:18:24
out with the same people at the same time we weren't hanging out with the same people at that time and the weeks
00:18:30
leading up to her disappearance he didn't really know what she was doing or what she was up to because they had
00:18:35
parted ways and really truly did go their own separate ways one thing though that I thought was a little weird when
00:18:43
he was being stand offish with the documentarians he said you know and this could be simply out of frustration or
00:18:51
this could be out of guilt or he's trying to hide something he says it's been 32 years I wish people would just
00:18:58
let it die now I've never been questioned or suspected of anything or local rumor of
00:19:06
people coming up to me asking me about a missing person's case that they think I
00:19:12
may have been involved in so I don't know what that's like I cannot say what kind of reaction I would have maybe he's
00:19:20
just frustrated with the whole situation why do you keep talking to me I had nothing to do with this why do people
00:19:25
keep coming up and talking to me about this I had nothing to do with it or maybe he's trying to hide something and
00:19:31
he's uncomfortable by by the questioning probably a little frustrated that they didn't get the ansers 30 years ago
00:19:38
because if they would have done their work and done their due diligence 30 years ago they could have possibly
00:19:43
cleared him and then he would never been brought up again the person that has really kept this case alive is detective
00:19:52
Stacy Reese mhm and you see look she's amazing when you watch the documentary you're going to go if it wasn't for her
00:20:02
we wouldn't be talking about this case you know what there would be no movement on this case if it wasn't
00:20:09
for the Stacy Reese well Stacy Reese and and like we said the the two documentarians I'd be honored to work
00:20:17
with any of those individuals they were just amazing and I can't applaud their effort enough but then what ends up
00:20:25
happening here with Shawn is Sean gets sick and he is arrested on I believe fraud charges Denise's mother
00:20:36
Judy writes a letter to Shawn and basically says look your mom was a good person Denise loved your mom your mom's
00:20:45
probably in heaven you probably want to join her in heaven so just tell us where
00:20:51
our daughter is we we believe and law enforcement at this time believes you're and they do something that's very
00:21:01
surprising like we said he has these fraud charges he then would be charged obviously with murder mhm and he is sick
00:21:12
he is dying and so the family makes a deal look if you can just give us the location of where Denise's body is and
00:21:22
we can find the body we're going to let you out of prison you're going to get off on the fraud charges we're not even
00:21:28
going to charge you with murder so he makes this deal with police and starts talking to police even before his lawyer
00:21:35
gets there and this is a last ditch Hail Mary effort by Judy flum and her family
00:21:44
to say look we we don't at this point all these years later we don't really care exactly what happened we are not so
00:21:52
concerned about murder charges against you we just want to bring our daughter home we want to know where she is and
00:22:01
have some answers as to what happened and as the captain said he comes in and he he he's in his jail uniform and he's
00:22:11
in the room with the sheriff and he's starting to confess his confession is that she contacts him to have him go
00:22:21
with her to retrieve the purse yeah this would make some sense with with her activities that we know
00:22:30
the the things that she was doing that day he says that they stopped off at this bridge she falls hits her head he
00:22:38
Stomps off in in aggravation and frustration and when he returns she's not moving his push then caused her death
00:22:47
according to this statement right he then says that he contacted a couple of friends these names it's not clear clear
00:22:58
whether he disclosed these names to law enforcement or purposely left those names out of his confession I believe he
00:23:06
told them and but law enforcement has left that information out of Public's eyes and then he says that the friends
00:23:15
were contacted so they could help him with this situation help him dispose of Denise there's a lot of problems with
00:23:25
his story though because he's he's very vague his story is kind of wonky donkey I mean he goes out there with her but
00:23:34
it's not clear on how he got to a a place or where he went to to contact individuals to come help him and so his
00:23:45
immunity is based off of two things that one he confesses and says what happen which he was able to give him Sheriff
00:23:55
looks at him in the eye and says look me in the eye and tell me that you are the
00:24:00
killer because there could be the real killer out there still and he says no I I killed her so
00:24:09
then the next thing that he has to give law enforcement is where are her remains
00:24:15
and he goes out with them on the first occasion to one of the Johnson family's properties and the sheriff's department
00:24:25
says look he he did seem confused as soon as we arrive there now mind you 30 some years have passed and the location
00:24:33
may look quite different than the last time he was there he also gives some indication too that it may have been
00:24:42
dark during some of the periods of the activities that he's confessing to again what's crazy though is he is so vague in
00:24:50
at least the statements that have been released to the public but he's also very emotional right like does wasn't
00:24:58
his emotion almost it almost sealed it for me until then later we learned he can't lead them to Denise's body and not
00:25:06
only can he not lead them there but it he seems very confused almost like he's like well I'm going yeah it's around
00:25:16
here but he's almost like looking for law enforcement to point him in the right direction and they're not able to
00:25:22
do that and they're also kind of instructed not to have a bunch of communication with with him cuz that
00:25:29
they don't want to interfere with the information that he's giving right they don't want it to appear like they're
00:25:36
recording him when he's out on these let's call him field trips looking for Denise they go to multiple properties on
00:25:43
different occasions looking for her he sounds clueless to me like he's like like you said hoping that law
00:25:51
enforcement will Point him in the right direction so he can deliver on his end of the deal and they don't want it to
00:25:57
later look like this was an extended interrogation or interview of this man they want it to be clear that we were
00:26:05
rolling tape we were just letting him talk we just needed to hear his thoughts he is supposed to be directing us to
00:26:11
where she is he's not able to do so on multiple occasions now think about this he has all these reasons to confess and
00:26:21
all these reasons to try to find where her remains would be he's going to get off on fraud charges he's going to get
00:26:28
away with murder he's going to be set free yes he's towards the end of his life he's withering away but he's also
00:26:36
going to receive $25,000 that he can pass on to his kids because he confessed he has all these
00:26:44
reasons to confess that benefit him so I don't look at this guy as like oh well he he just you know had a change of
00:26:52
heart and he just wants to give people the answer he's doing this for so many selfish reasons and and then the reason
00:26:59
why I don't believe him is because he's not able to give them the information that would set him free he wants to be
00:27:07
set free he wants to not have these charges against him he wants this money to give to his family and he's not able
00:27:15
to provide the information what ends up happening here is a very weird sequence of events he confesses to the murder he
00:27:24
tells them he can lead them to her body he fails to do so he fails to give great details of the
00:27:31
murder itself he therefore does not deliver on his end of the deal so law enforcement says we ain't going to give
00:27:39
you what we promised you either and in fact we're not going to give you immunity in fact we're not going to give
00:27:44
you the $25,000 in fact we're not going to let you out of jail on these other charges
00:27:51
what we're going to do instead is charge you with involuntary manslaughter because now we have your confession
00:27:58
we just don't have a whole lot of evidence to back it up they're hoping that this confession that he made on
00:28:05
tape which is completely you know he he's not he's not being physically or verbally pressured
00:28:13
at the time of giving this confession the only pressure on him is to make this deal and they say we're going to charge
00:28:21
you with involuntary manslaughter and they go out and arrest him later this it takes some time between these events to
00:28:29
to take place well he's still in prison on the fraud charges but and they arrest
00:28:33
him for uh involuntary manslaughter now before he could be taken to court on these charges he passes away as the
00:28:42
captain pointed out sha McClung was was Ill at the time and I'll read some brief
00:28:47
statements from from a very good article on the matter that says on September 26
00:28:52
2020 sha mclung age 56 of Connorsville Indiana Di died from complications with an undisclosed illness on July 9th 2020
00:29:03
the fet County prosecuting attorney's office charged Shawn with voluntary manslaughter as a class B felony after
00:29:11
he allegedly confessed to killing Denise flum more than 30 years ago mcclung's alleged confession has made many
00:29:19
headlines but the full circumstances and motivations surrounding the quote confession have not been
00:29:27
closed now as the captain pointed out Shan McClung a dying man he was in jail on two pending cases unrelated to
00:29:35
Denise's disappearance he was unable to post bail his attorney comes forward and
00:29:41
says look my client told me in his dying days I did not kill Denise I only said that I did that because I was hoping to
00:29:52
not spend my last few days on this Earth in jail and I was hoping to give my children the $25,000 reward that they
00:30:01
were offering me I was hoping to leave something to my kids and his attorney says he was
00:30:08
devastated when they turned around and charged him with it I happen to believe and Captain correct me if you
00:30:15
think I'm wrong here but I think Shawn may have thought that someone in law enforcement knew more about the case
00:30:23
than he did yeah definitely and what parts he couldn't conf to they would fill in some of the blanks
00:30:31
and maybe together using local rumor and what the police knew maybe they could stumble upon a body or maybe they would
00:30:39
take that portion off of the table if they just got him to confess right in some jurisdictions in front of some
00:30:46
officers it's good enough to just close out the case not actually solve it so where we were really coming down hard on
00:30:55
them yesterday for the lack of effort in this investigation we should point out that
00:31:02
they had the easy way out here and they didn't take it now you could argue well they were going to charge him with that
00:31:10
voluntary manslaughter charge so maybe maybe his death is what simply removed that from the equation well there's
00:31:19
still people in law enforcement that believe Shawn is responsible for The Disappearance and murder of Denise but
00:31:27
there's two things that are really important in this case who did it and how do we find her remains and Sean
00:31:36
wasn't able to provide those two important pieces of [Music] information this show is sponsored by better help do
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[Music] forever forever can't get away all right we are back and cheers mates again what a this case really blew
00:34:45
my mind normally when it's a 30 some year old case I go well what can we learn from this are we going to have any
00:34:53
movement on this case but we have three really good suspects with three confessions let's get into suspect
00:35:02
number two yeah this is Benny Johnson and we've spoke about him a little bit before he graduated a couple years
00:35:09
before Denise and it's our belief that it was one of the Johnson's properties that was hosting the party the night
00:35:16
before Benny Johnson has been it's been rumored and it's been stated on camera and stated in written
00:35:24
reports that he has admitted to multiple people not law enforcement but to multiple persons that he killed Denise
00:35:34
flum now the problem with these statements is that he's given multiple different stories as to
00:35:44
all aspects of the crime how she died how he disposed of her body though how she died has changed in different
00:35:53
stories where the body is or how he disposed of the body has has changed in different stories what led up to the
00:36:00
murder has changed in different stories he's a guy that it's really difficult to
00:36:04
pin down what his actual statements would be and part of that is he lawyers up once the heat gets turned on Benny
00:36:14
Johnson he gets an attorney now I'm not in law enforcement so I'm not going to pretend to know what the best strategy
00:36:22
is at this time given the state of the case and him as a potential suspect but it looks like as soon as he lawyers
00:36:30
up that that the sheriff's department takes on a very hands-off approach with this individual yeah they don't call him
00:36:37
in with and this is again a huge giant pile of horeshit you have this individual he he is a piece of [ __ ]
00:36:45
individual he has some issues his family owns that property and properties around
00:36:53
where her car was found and you don't bring them into questioning now his lawyer when they talk to the lawyer he
00:36:59
the lawyer says well yeah you can bring my client in and we probably won't answer any questions but we'll make a
00:37:05
statement well you don't know what that statement's going to be so you call him in and you record that statement and
00:37:12
they never did that and that's again just it's just lazy horseshit investigation so on March 27th that's
00:37:20
the day of the bonfire right so there is a a party that night bonfire party but there's also a party that Benny has with
00:37:31
a bunch of his friends at his mother's cabin so it's very unclear on how big this party was but the following day
00:37:38
they're going to have a bigger party and because they're at this cabin they need
00:37:42
to clean it up a little bit and they when they go to clean up this party his girlfriend sees blood on a sheet
00:37:52
discover some blood yes in the cabin a lot of blood actually and and her their reasoning for this blood is that
00:38:01
somebody was having sex and it was their first time and so they bled but she thought initially well this seems like a
00:38:10
lot more blood than the reason they're giving keep in mind too at this time the the local thought the general consensus
00:38:20
if you will was that Denise was missing voluntarily that she may return there was still a lot of people that believed
00:38:31
in the first day or two that she had just gone off with someone or was out partying or or doing stuff that that of
00:38:38
course she was not that type according to her parents but that was the local belief by a lot of people so while this
00:38:46
may cause some red flags it doesn't seem to send them all the way up the flag pole but I believe the girlfriend says
00:38:55
that she did report this incident to somebody at law enforcement yeah after a little bit of
00:39:01
time went by and it started becoming more clear that Denise didn't just walk away from her life that there was
00:39:09
probably some foul play she did contact law enforcement but again law enforcement just didn't follow up on
00:39:15
certain things they could have went out to the property they could have got maybe a search warrant they could have
00:39:21
got a search warrant for the property of the party that they just didn't do things that you should do well and the
00:39:27
Johnson's have a lot of land and they have different properties multiple properties and a lot of these properties
00:39:33
are large you know they have several Acres uh if not dozens of Acres right and one thing that's troubling here too
00:39:41
regarding the ex-girlfriend for Benny Johnson is she says it about two months after Denise went missing Benny's
00:39:50
telling her that hey after school I've got something to show you so after school she goes and meets up with Benny
00:39:55
he wants to take her out into the woods on one of their properties one of the Johnson properties and the girlfriend
00:40:03
says at some point she backs out she got nervous she didn't feel comfortable going into the woods she's she says even
00:40:10
to this day she's a little unclear why she didn't feel comfortable and she's asked direct questions was it because
00:40:17
you didn't trust Benny was it because you were afraid of Benny and she says you know I I've thought about this a
00:40:23
long time it might simply just be I was afraid of what he was going to show me yeah so here we go so Benny the big red
00:40:32
flags to me is that the Johnson family his family owns this property owns where her remains could be
00:40:41
at owns this cabin that we find blood in his girlfriend Ben's girlfriend at the time
00:40:49
starts suspecting him he takes her out to this Pond she never sees what he's trying to
00:40:56
show show her but then again all the local rumors that Benny confesses I think the thing that plays in his favor
00:41:04
is like you said his confessions seem to contradict themselves so the details don't line up but then on top of that
00:41:14
they're actually able to question his cousin which was at the party the night before and the the night afterwards and
00:41:22
he says well and then there's local rumors that Randy has confessed to involvement and one of the statements is
00:41:31
that Denise went out to get her purse and Benny and Randy um were out there so they take her
00:41:39
back to a place that they were drinking and they were party in now this could have been the cabin I'm not for sure mhm
00:41:45
once Denise sees these drugs she starts freaking out and somebody it's not clear
00:41:52
based off of this local person this local person came for for and said this is the confession that Randy gave him
00:41:59
right says somebody punched her and that's where it all started okay now we punched her and now this situation has
00:42:07
got out of hand so they end up beating her basically to death and then feeding her to the
00:42:15
pigs and that there was screams and she was screaming and basically that Randy is haunted by these
00:42:24
screams Randy says on camera in the documentary that he never claimed to have any involvement and doesn't recall
00:42:34
ever making those types of statements to anyone again the people that are saying
00:42:39
this are saying that he was heavily intoxicated when he's made these statements these are referred to as
00:42:46
drunken confessions and he even states that he was in Michigan at the time again it's all these years later it's
00:42:53
hard to verify these things but look what but what we do know and I I hate to cut you off but this just pisses me off
00:43:01
so bad what we do know is that these scumbags these rumors it's not like these are rumors that happened 20 years
00:43:09
later this this is stuff that PE there's rumors happening and people talking about Benny and possibly his cousin
00:43:18
early on in the investigation and I wonder if originally if mcquin Ley was looking so hard at Benny and his cousin
00:43:27
Randy Kates that he just failed to see the obvious uh of a potential person of interest in Shan mclung but if you're
00:43:36
not a piece of [ __ ] detective then and you take notes and you did your due diligence you you would know and have
00:43:44
confirmed or denied The Alibi for Shawn and then you would have been able to confirm or deny The Alibi for Randy and
00:43:51
a couple statements that I keep going back to here is one from the family they they say the the pain never goes away
00:43:57
they're absolutely right 100% And I hope at some point they can locate Denise so
00:44:03
they can have some answers some form of healing can start for them the pain never goes away but what did Shawn
00:44:12
mclung say when he was uncomfortable and the questions were brought to him 30 some years later he says it's been 32
00:44:22
years I wish people would just let it die what's weird is in some in some way that's not so obvious to us because it's
00:44:31
not reported and not not been public information in Shawn mcclung's confession that he gave to law
00:44:37
enforcement he must have implicated Benny Johnson in some former fashion because that's where they go looking for
00:44:45
Denise's body and we can't say 100% that he did implicate Benny Johnson but one thing
00:44:54
that I found weird was when the document Arians go to interview Benny Johnson he
00:44:58
says something similar he says it's been all these years I just wish people would
00:45:03
forget about it I wish people would just let it go yeah and what a what a weird thing to have similar statements now he
00:45:13
lawyers up and it does not seem that police are going to jump the hurdle of that lawyer of
00:45:24
that attorney of that representation and ask bring Benny in and ask him the hard facts well no and
00:45:31
look ask him the hard questions the creators of the vice documentary and I would State their names but they're
00:45:38
difficult names to say and detective Stacy Reese they're the only ones that have ever really talked to Benny to this
00:45:47
day law enforcement hasn't brought them in and you know this is Weighing on their family because the family has been
00:45:54
asked multiple times to give us permission give law enforcement permission to do searches bring in
00:46:01
cadaver dogs and they've been denied over and over and over so okay so on one hand law enforcement's not questioning
00:46:09
Benny but the other on the other hand they are asking to search properties and they're being denied well actually I
00:46:17
should take that back I don't know how much law enforcement is actually pushing for these searches but the family the
00:46:23
plum family has been flum the flum the flum family has been pushing for these searches so and and here's where it gets
00:46:36
uh interesting as well because we talk about those screams so you have that one confession where they feed her to the
00:46:44
pigs and these screams well we do have a witness from 30 years ago viven May so viven
00:46:56
tells her kids when they come home she seems rattled that she heard some screams three or four screams three or
00:47:05
four screams loud guttural very uh horrific haunting yeah to the point where screams she feels to the point
00:47:17
where they know that she feels uncomfortable even just talking about what she heard so they go out and look
00:47:25
at this property ask their mom where did the Screams Come From she points and she
00:47:31
goes look I I know because these were gutural horrific screams points to this plot of land and who is the land owned
00:47:40
by Benny Johnson Ben Johnson Senior it's it's Johnson family property yeah the property was owned by Ben Johnson
00:47:50
Benny's dad and on this property there was a pond so they call law enforcement but
00:47:59
guess what law enforcement doesn't follow up just like with the freaking aliis just like with the
00:48:08
questioning I I'm look I'm still pissed off and I understand that you have suspects in this case but again why
00:48:16
didn't you talk to more people that possibly were at this party why didn't you go to the high school and start
00:48:21
rounding people up and just getting statements at least we'd have a lot of information
00:48:29
to go off of but you don't even follow up on this Vivan May's story now again the screams were coming from Ben
00:48:39
Johnson's property it's absolutely ridiculous and then for whatever reason one of these ponds were later filled in
00:48:49
which I find to be pretty suspicious MH and this this look and I know this Ben Johnson is dead but this guy is a a real
00:48:58
son of a [ __ ] because you have a 18-year-old woman that disappeared is most likely was murdered
00:49:09
and their remains were most likely disposed of on your property and it's possible that your son is
00:49:18
involved and he has stood in the way of law enforcement or the family to bring in law enforcement
00:49:26
to search any of his properties and he he's passed away now but he kept on saying well yeah I I was fine with them
00:49:35
searching but we couldn't get together on the details and I understand that maybe you
00:49:41
don't want them coming in and just digging up your property but grass is going to grow back
00:49:50
I it just it just baffles me to me with all these local rumors and people saying
00:49:57
that your son has confessed to them it's almost like he's protecting his son maybe he is afraid of what they'd find
00:50:05
and they were able to talk to Benny's mom and she says he has issues and he never does the right thing right so I
00:50:15
mean it's just well but it's like your husband's not doing the right thing either let them search the damn property
00:50:20
because if you search the property and you find nothing fine well and as far as many's confessions or drunken
00:50:27
confessions go that gets a little difficult too to to discern just how incriminating that actually is given
00:50:35
that he's given different statements different stories at different times but then also the general consensus among am
00:50:41
around town is that Benny don't just have one screw loose he got a whole bunch of screws loose yeah and so it's
00:50:49
hard to believe in anything that he says and then you want to talk about hard to
00:50:54
believe in anything that someone says you have to talk about Larry Hall Larry Dwayne Hall as we pointed out earlier is
00:51:02
a suspected serial killer he's a giant [ __ ] stain is what he is and he's suspected of kidnapping raping and
00:51:09
killing girls and women in multiple Midwestern states thankfully he is currently locked up in North Carolina
00:51:19
and he does not seem like he's ever going to get out uh he's locked up on Federal charges because they found a
00:51:28
murdered victim that they could prove that he kidnapped her and transported her across
00:51:35
state lines right therefore making it a federal crime however they were reserved
00:51:42
to charging him with kidnapping because they simply didn't have the evidence they believed at the time to get the
00:51:49
murder conviction they've made great efforts to make sure that Larry Hall never gets out
00:51:56
because if you were to believe Larry Hall or at least Larry Hall is a man that changes his story frequently if you
00:52:05
are to believe some of his stories then he may have killed he may have abducted and killed 30 40 women and girls and the
00:52:16
reason why he falls into suspicion here is one he was active at this time kidnapping
00:52:23
females he lived in wall bash Indiana so he's about 2 and a half hours from Connorsville Indiana and some say
00:52:33
well that's that's a little far that might be a bit of a stretch but a lot of the crimes he suspected of happened in
00:52:41
other states in fact the crime that he's convicted of the kidnapping charge that
00:52:46
he's convicted of happened over two and a half hours driving distance from where
00:52:52
he lives so the distance alone does not put it out of the realm of possibility that he could be the perpetrator of this
00:53:01
and then furthermore and I was trying to to me this was very important to nail down a date on when this confession came
00:53:08
the confession we have that impl where he implicates himself as a potential good suspect in
00:53:15
Denise flam's case comes from a list that he created and the best I could do Captain was to determine that he created
00:53:24
this list in either 2010 or 2011 and on this list he list 39 girls and women he does not say that he
00:53:34
murdered them he says that these are girls or women that he abducted well on that
00:53:41
list he the list is pretty simple he puts a date which is simply a year he doesn't give exact dates just a year
00:53:51
right he gives a name if he can Pro provide a name sometimes he just says girl or uh we'll give a different
00:54:00
title and then he provides a general location well his list starts with a girl or a person named Debbie in
00:54:11
1981 if we go down the list one two three four names from Debbie's name he has listed 1986 Denise Connorsville
00:54:23
Indiana well that certainly match up with our Denise flum case yeah the the problem with law enforcement with Larry
00:54:31
Hall is is he a serial killer or is he a Serial Confessor or a wannabe he's been
00:54:38
called a wannabe by several investigators and look if you get the time to check out Blackbird on Apple TV
00:54:48
it's a very fascinating story and I'll just break it down as quick as I can he's arrested we don't know if he's a
00:54:56
serial killer or a Serial Confessor so there was this famous cop that his son was arrested for I
00:55:07
believe selling drugs James Keane is the son's name so they're like well look this this is a son of uh law enforcement
00:55:15
a really respectable officer we're going to approach the officer and talk with his son and say hey we can put you in a
00:55:24
maximum sec security prison he's he he's in a cupcake prison but we can put you in a Maximum Security Prison you be
00:55:32
friends Larry Hall you get him to confess you get him to tell you where the bodies are and if you do so we'll
00:55:43
let you out of prison done and done so he takes the deal and what happens is he does become
00:55:53
friends with Larry Hall and gets Larry Hall to confess to certain things and then at some point Larry Hall has this
00:56:01
map that he has red dots on it and those red dots indicate where these crimes took place and he was carving these
00:56:09
little I believe there were owls and that he would place the owls roughly where the victims were I
00:56:18
believe they were Falcons Falcons okay but this is where James Kean screws it up and he's admitted that he screwed
00:56:26
this up but he's in a Maximum Security Prison probably fearful of his life with every turn also probably fearful that
00:56:33
he's going to be found out that he's an informant for the FBI and he sees this map and instead of
00:56:43
taking his time and telling law enforcement and making sure that they can get to this map that Larry Hall has
00:56:52
created he loses it yeah and he basically tells Larry Hall you are the scum of the earth you're a giant pile of
00:57:00
[ __ ] and it blows his cover and he's unable for a time period to get I think probably what happened was he tried to
00:57:08
get in touch with his well he FBI agent he got he gets moved to solitary confinement so good luck getting your
00:57:17
information out when you're locked up in a in a tiny little room all by yourself
00:57:22
and so at the time this was was an actual actually a medical center for federal prisoners in Springfield
00:57:29
Missouri at the time and when he sees this map according to James Keane he believes that the red dots on the map
00:57:37
and the black birds or the Falcons or the owls or whatever they were we don't get clear indication of from Larry Hall
00:57:44
exactly what these birds are but he believes this to be markings of where either where bodies are left by Larry
00:57:54
hall or where he abducted a murder victim or where he murdered a victim uh Larry Hall gets very difficult because
00:58:04
there's a lot of people that believe he drove around this big van this big old van and there's no doubt he's a murderer
00:58:13
so even though he's never been convicted of murder keep in mind the kidnapping charge that he is currently incarcerated
00:58:21
for is a an abduction that resulted in death so he is a murderer the difficult thing with him is a lot of these people
00:58:35
on his list a good deal of them have never been found which makes it one incredibly difficult for an
00:58:44
investigation but then on top of that this guy roamed and ramed and roamed the Midwest to a degree that's unheard of
00:58:54
I've I mean we've talked often about a vehicle being a Serial Killer's tool or weapon this is crazy I mean he's driving
00:59:03
around this murder wagon this murder van and sometimes he would he would assault
00:59:12
and kill or it's believed I should say it's believed that he would assault and kill
00:59:17
a victim where he found them and sometimes leave them where he found them but other times he would abduct them and
00:59:24
drive them very far away and torture them in this van yeah that he had also known to mutilate the bodies now when
00:59:36
you read this it actually says mutilate the bodies sexually I I'm not we don't need to go
00:59:44
too far down that road but I mean this guy is a horrible individual and that's my other problem though with Ben Johnson
00:59:51
and the whole Johnson family is you do have people in law enforcement that go look Larry Hall is a a very good suspect
01:00:00
for Denise's murder let us search your property is it possible that he disposed of the body not I mean think about that
01:00:10
if if he came across Denise looking for her purse and somehow captured her or got her to move
01:00:22
her car or maybe there was some car problems or whatever got her to pull over got her to pull over maybe he was
01:00:29
parked on the side of the road and and she thought maybe he was some guy from the party who knows but it's like he is
01:00:35
a good suspect and he might have disposed of the body roughly where he came in contact with her at because it was a
01:00:44
very remote rural area so let them search the property and the thing is is if they do find her
01:00:54
remain s and they can connect the case back to your son well then you're taking a a murderer that you clearly have
01:01:03
stated his family has clearly stated that he has mental issues and you're taking a very dangerous person off the
01:01:11
streets whether that's a family member or not but it's possible that you find her remains and you're able to tie that
01:01:19
back to Larry Hall Larry Hall was arrested in 1994 and he was evicted in 1995 and sentenced to life in prison
01:01:27
without parole for the kidnapping of Jessica roach now under the federal system if a suspect is convicted in a
01:01:36
kidnapping that results in death there is a mandatory life term with no parole so he is not getting out as said when
01:01:46
James Keane was working on getting confessions from Larry Hall they were spending time at a medical center for
01:01:52
federal prisoners in Springfield Missouri C Hall is currently serving time at the butler Federal Corrections
01:01:59
complex in the great state of North Carolina now he has on multiple occasions admitted to several murders
01:02:11
and in fact in 2010 or 2011 he admitted to per this list the Abduction of 39 females and he
01:02:23
was heavily involved in the in participating in Civil War reenact reenactments from 1980 to 1994 according
01:02:33
to his list of 39 that he provided to a reporter he was actively abducting girls
01:02:40
and women from 1981 up until he was arrested in 1994 and now some people have called him
01:02:48
a wannabe some people have said that he's made all of this up I think we have to
01:02:55
when you take a look at this you got to give unfortunately you got to give Larry Hall
01:03:00
a little bit of credibility here because before they arrested him in 1994 one thing that that separated him they had
01:03:08
some suspects in some of these cases these outstanding cases Larry Hall was a suspect in two of their cases they
01:03:15
started taking a good look at Larry Hall and then what they realize they're like
01:03:18
wait a second we have 11 reports 11 police reports from girls in five different towns that say
01:03:31
they were approached by Larry Hall and multiple occasions these 11 reports they give the V they give a
01:03:40
description of his van and a description of him his van is pretty unique it's over 10 years old at the time it's
01:03:49
two-toned well and some of them are actually able to give his license plate he's unique looking because he's got
01:03:55
mutton chops he looks like [ __ ] he's on the shorter side he's a little heavier
01:03:59
and like the captain said there were multiple reports where what could have been a potential victim was able to give
01:04:07
a complete license plate number to law enforcement and in fact one time one of these reports comes from a girl
01:04:16
that says he he was stalking her she's out on her bike or she's out walking around and he's driving up and keeps
01:04:22
approaching her and keeps approaching her and keeps approaching her and she notifies a police
01:04:29
officer who she provides the license plate to he tracks Larry Hall down ask him what are you out here doing Larry
01:04:37
Hall goes well I'm out here looking for my friend's address I'm I'm trying to locate uh this person I know right and
01:04:44
unfortunately they don't haul him in right then and there the law enforcement officer goes back to the station and
01:04:52
later looks up that address to learn that it was a fake address that Larry Hall provided there on the spot to get
01:04:59
himself out of a jam so all of these different reports and then he confesses to killing Jessica roach then recants
01:05:07
that statement and then that's when they are able to get a search warrant for his
01:05:12
vehicle and for his property well and one of the reasons why I think he's a really good suspect in Denise's Cas is
01:05:20
because when he'd go to do these Civil War or Revolutionary War reenactments they might be taking place
01:05:29
on a Saturday or Sunday and he would leave early so he would peruse these towns on that Thursday or the Friday
01:05:39
before and so here we have a girl that goes missing midday Friday very likely he was in the area
01:05:49
for one of these reenactments in Larry Hall's initial confession regarding the murder of Jessica roach he told
01:05:58
investigators that he tied her up but can't remember with what he says he took off her pants and then he says that he
01:06:06
later raped Jessica led her to the woods and then strangled her from behind he said that he did this because
01:06:14
he did not want to see her face as she died he says that I laid her up against a tree and put a belt around her neck
01:06:23
and then she stopped breathing again remember he then later recants this confession which leads to searching
01:06:32
for evidence at his in his van and at his property during that confession though Captain he also admitted to
01:06:42
abducting and killing other girls and gives very vague statements saying all of the girls looked alike I can't
01:06:50
remember all of them I picked up several girls in other areas but I can't remember which ones I hurt well Larry
01:06:57
Hall is interesting because like I said he's he's driving around looking for opportunities but he also seemed to have
01:07:04
a very distinct type and Denise would fall into that type of victim very similar build very similar look they
01:07:15
found what they are calling a kill kit or abduction kit in his van which I think we're getting a shortened version
01:07:23
of the amount of items that were found but what is reported is that it was rope knives a ski mask ether which was also
01:07:33
described as a rag soaked in starter fluid which can be used to incapacitate somebody um and also in the van they
01:07:43
found news stories about kidnappings and serial killers now when they search his
01:07:50
home they find list in journals that Larry Hall it's believed that they were made
01:07:58
by Larry Hall and some of the notes were seen joggers and bikers many alone so it's like he's driving around
01:08:07
and taking notes on the different locations that he is he's in seen joggers and bikers many of them alone he
01:08:14
goes on in in the notes to say check colleges check Parks seen some prospects then he has a list of items to
01:08:22
buy at the hardware store with detailed instructions and the list says buy two more plastic tarps cover all floor and
01:08:31
sides of Van no body contact buy condoms buy two more leather belts find one now
01:08:40
I don't know if he means find one belt now or find a victim now and investigators also found newspaper
01:08:46
clippings about Jessica roach who he was later convicted of kidnapping they also
01:08:52
found pornograph photos that they believe were altered by Larry Hall one investigator saying quote he had drawn
01:09:01
what looked like a rope or belt around the neck of one of the people and on the left side of one of the pictures the
01:09:08
left side of the mouth he had drawn blood and here's where I have to unfortunately give a little bit of
01:09:14
credibility to Larry Hall's confessions or at the very least list that he provided to that reporter in 10
01:09:25
2011 because on that list we have Denise's name 1986 Connorsville Indiana her name is wedged between two
01:09:35
other what he's listing as abduction victims for the same year 1986 Mia is listed as Summerfield
01:09:46
Illinois 1986 listed just above Denise's name just below Denise's name we have Kim
01:09:55
1986 this is from Champagne Illinois the thing that's interesting to me here Captain is Mia Chavez was from
01:10:04
California her body was found in Summerfield Illinois and I went through and I cross referenced a lot of these
01:10:12
names listed with the year and the location that he provided on the list they all check out there's all a
01:10:21
victim with that name from that location who went missing the year that he provides so that's a little weird now
01:10:30
it's also not completely out of the realm of possibility that he's just reading about serial killers he's
01:10:36
clipping all these news stories about abductions and therefore he's been able to memorize them or put them to Memory
01:10:42
and now he's simply interacting with this reporter and getting some kind of satisfaction from Prov providing this
01:10:51
reporter with all these false leads or this false confession to all these 39 different abductions but the one that I
01:10:58
want to hone in on is this Mia Chavez of California what's so interesting to me is that yes he provides this name on his
01:11:07
list in 2010 or 2011 she was abducted and went missing in 1986 the remains that were
01:11:17
recovered were not identified until 2007 and she was from another state a state far away California she was found
01:11:28
in Somerville Illinois I don't know that he would know that via newspaper or somebody else telling him
01:11:38
you know you see what I mean there's there's enough mystery there and he gets enough right with such little to go on
01:11:46
that that seems to me that there could be a lot of Truth at least to this one one particular victim that he has listed
01:11:56
and it's a victim that he's got listed right next to Denise's name it's it's very difficult to sit here and say which
01:12:03
ones we think he committed but I think that there's probably some truth along the way to
01:12:11
this 39 I don't know that I believe all of them but they're just not able to connect him
01:12:19
to this I also wonder with some of these cases and some of the jurisdictions how how much effort or time or resources
01:12:27
they want to spend on it knowing that he's not getting out of prison well the other problem though too is with these
01:12:34
kill kits and possibly these tools or weapons used in the murders well that's great and maybe you could do some kind
01:12:42
of DNA test as far as like G genealogy but a lot of these victims their remains were never recovered
01:12:52
correct most of these victims were were never recovered we do have several investigators that are on record saying
01:12:58
that if there were to be a DNA match to Larry Hall in some of their cases he won't be prosecuted
01:13:06
because he simply can't be released from prison that he's locked up in federal prison but here's the thing here's where
01:13:15
I say wake up a little bit because it it's all set up that he'll never be released in December of 2020 2 Larry
01:13:24
Hall and attorneys filed motions for what's called a compassionate release he was asking for the courts to
01:13:33
release him from prison stating that he is overweight that he is up there in years
01:13:40
he has high blood pressure and therefore he is more susceptible to dying from getting
01:13:49
covid-19 and that they should take that into consideration and then release him from prison as a compassionate release
01:13:58
thankfully he was denied this compassionate release now one thing that that I want to talk about too
01:14:07
is as far as civil war reenactments go and the captain hit on something very very important when you talk about Larry
01:14:19
Hall this guy drove a lot this guy would often leave early for these reenactments and he would often come
01:14:27
back late well I couldn't find anything in the greater Connorsville Indiana area
01:14:33
for the day or two in question regarding Denise flums disappearance but there was
01:14:41
a Civil War reenactment in Henning Tennessee which was held at Fort Pillow State historic area March 22nd and March
01:14:51
23rd 1986 six it would not be impossible for Larry Hall to travel down from W Bash from W bash Indiana down to Henning
01:15:02
Tennessee and stop off on in Connorsville along the way or on the on the way back the other thing too was
01:15:11
just the previous year in 1985 Sunday October 13th in Robert's park there was a Civil War reenactment
01:15:20
in Connorsville Indiana so there's a chance he been to the area the year before just 6 months before Denise was
01:15:29
abducted so there are some things that do certainly tie him to this case into a lot of other cases well like I said we
01:15:36
have three good suspects so I think you could make a argument for either one and
01:15:41
then we have confessions with all these suspects but that's what pisses me off we have three good suspects we have
01:15:49
confessions and I believe if law enforcement would have done the work that they needed to do
01:15:55
initially we would have answers in this case and possibly would know where Denise's remains were and the family
01:16:02
would have some closure and the community would have some closure Connorsville has been haunted by
01:16:09
Denise's case and I I think it'll be continue to be haunted until they get answers in 2007 the Indiana State Police
01:16:18
were able to collect DNA Denise flums DNA so she has been listed now in National databases of missing persons so
01:16:31
if or when her remains are recovered they can be identified as that of Denise flum if anybody has any information
01:16:41
regarding the death or disappearance of Denise flum please contact the fet County Indiana Sheriff's Department or
01:16:52
if anyone has any information regarding Larry Dwayne Hall please contact the [Music]
01:17:14
FBI want to thank you all for joining us here in the garage make sure you are subscribed to the podcast colonel do we
01:17:23
have any recommended reading for the beautiful beautiful listeners yes we do Captain this week we are recommending a
01:17:29
classic it's called love me to death by the great Steve Jackson this is the chilling true story of William Wild Bill
01:17:38
Cody Neil The Vicious Denver lady killer this was originally released in 2011 by New York Times best-selling
01:17:48
author Steve Jackson and he's also a an award-winning journalist as as well this
01:17:54
was re-released at the end of last year because again it is a true crime classic
01:18:00
so check out love me to death by the great Steve Jackson you can find that recommendation and many more on our
01:18:07
recommended page at our website truecrime garage.com and if you're not following us on YouTube check us out at
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True Crime Garage on YouTube and until next week be good be kind and don't litter
01:18:29
[Music] is it possible to predict the unpredictable can 3D printed life-size organ models help to map out complex
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surgeries ahead of time is it possible it already is right here Mayo Clinic you know where to go