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00:01:43
Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and
00:01:49
with me as always is a man who's looking forward to turkey and sweet potato pie.
00:01:54
Remember, Sammy Davis Jr. only had one eye. Here's the captain. It's good to be seen, and it's good to see you. And yes,
00:02:00
I say that to my family at Thanksgiving. Thanks for listening and thanks for telling a friend.
00:02:06
[Music] Well, when life gives you lemons, you make lemon candy. That's what the captain says and that's what the good
00:02:19
folks over at Susahana Brewing Company say as well. Today we are drinking Shady Spot Lemon Chandandy. This is basically
00:02:28
beer and lemonade mingling together in a taste bud tingling harmony. Shady Spot is a world beer cup gold award winner.
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Garage grade four and a quarter bottle caps out of five. And we have some thanks and praise to hand out to our
00:02:43
good friends. First up, a big cheers to Paul and Peoria, Arizona. >> And a big we like your gym from Danielle
00:02:50
and Napa. Next, we have Lisa and Chad from Toronto that say go Bucks. Michigan sucks. And a big shout out to Jenny in
00:02:59
Austin, Texas. Next up, we have Angie Clark in South Lake Tahoe, California. And last, but certainly not least, a big
00:03:07
cheers and thank you to Cole Switzer and beautiful Sherwood Park, Canada. Everyone we just mentioned went to true
00:03:15
crimegar.com and contributed to this week's beer fund. And for that, well, we are thankful. And when you're at
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trueg.com, make sure you sign up on our mailing list. Check us out on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. If you need more
00:03:30
episodes, download the Stitcher app. It's free. And check out our bonus show called Off the Record. And that is
00:03:38
enough of the business. All right, everybody. Gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.
00:03:46
[Music] John Douglas started his career with the FBI in 1970. In the field, he served as
00:04:06
a hostage negotiator. He transferred to the FBI's behavioral science unit or BSU
00:04:12
for short in 1977 where he taught hostage negotiation and applied criminal psychology at the FBI academy in
00:04:20
Quantico. Douglas later went on to create and manage the FBI's criminal profiling program. While traveling
00:04:27
around the country providing instruction to law enforcement agencies, Douglas began interviewing serial killers and
00:04:34
other violent sex offenders at various prisons. He interviewed some of the most notable violent criminals as part of the
00:04:42
study, including David Burkowitz, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gasey, Charles Manson, and Edmund Keer. He used the information
00:04:50
gathered from these interviews. He examined crime scenes and created profiles of the perpetrators, describing
00:04:57
their habits and attempting to predict their next move. In cases where his work helped to capture the criminals, he
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built strategies for interrogating and prosecuting them as well. Douglas first made a public name for himself with the
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involvement in the Atlanta child murders. Douglas first made a public name for himself with his involvement in
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the Atlanta child murders case back in 1977 to 1981. He is the author of two of the garage's favorite true crime books,
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Mind Hunter and The Cases That Haunt Us. And he's joining us here in the garage today via telephone. And Mr. Douglas, it
00:05:32
is an honor to have you joining us once again. >> Well, thank you. >> First off, Mr. Douglas, everybody wants
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to know, will there be season 3 of Mine Hunter? You certainly have the inside track. What can you tell us? Will it
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happen and when? I tell you the uh now it's like two months ago I got a call from Holt Mall who plays Bill Tench
00:05:54
character. He stayed with me uh uh when he was developing his part in the show and but he he sounded kind of grim and
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and was that uh all the actors wanted to return but it was a question with uh David Fincher the director. He spent so
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much time so much time filming in Pittsburgh. He for each each season he spent about 7 months there and he's such
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a perfectionist that the actors are working almost the entire year on the you know on each uh on each series what
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they were saying that he's u you know exhausted. I just don't personally understand it. Neither the some of the
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actors. Uh why don't you get use some other directors? Uh some there there were other directors involved in in
00:06:42
season 1 and season two. Of the 19 total episodes in two seasons, Fincher did did
00:06:49
seven of them. Personally did seven. But when he did the series House of Cards, he started it, but then other other
00:06:56
directors took over over for the uh for the show. So I don't I mean it just uh everyone's you know was hoping it got
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tremendous ratings the reviews were were all you know all good but I I mean it doesn't uh for now it's not he takes you
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know if you can recall season 2 the first episode I just give you an idea there was a barbecue scene with Bill
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Tench and he's meeting his neighbors who are finding out for the first time kind
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of what he does with the profiling at Quanico and all that and they started asking questions. That one scene uh was
00:07:35
repeated seven nearly 75 times 75 times before uh Fincher approved it how he wanted that scene uh to go. I uh and
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it's and because I made that he's made he's made the Netflix a lot of money. You know, it was if it was anyone else
00:07:55
they say they would say, "Okay, it's fine. We'll get another director." But no, they're they're not doing it. But I
00:08:00
I just in the back of my mind, I just think they will some point, you know, I may I may be dead and buried, but but
00:08:07
some point I hope they'll bring it back. There's so much more to tell. I mean, even season two, the Atlanta child
00:08:12
killings. Uh I mean that and and and you're you know, you're uh the people listening to your show have to realize
00:08:20
that's based on the book, but it's not the book. Uh the like the Atlanta case did not go down like that. Matter of
00:08:26
fact, in reality, I thought it went down in a real way went down a lot more dramatic. And my role in that case as
00:08:33
far as coaching the the prosecution uh on how to to interrogate him when he would take the stand. Uh my attitude
00:08:42
with toward the the uh the prosecutors and experts that the FBI and the state brought in there and how how uh they
00:08:51
they were going to throw my ass out of there. They did because I was just so critical of them uh on how they
00:08:57
testified. They were so technical, no one could even understand what they were were saying. I mean, I couldn't
00:09:02
understand what they were saying. Uh and the defense experts that they brought in
00:09:08
talked they may have been saying stuff that's not correct uh their analysis, but it was it was clear it was something
00:09:15
that the jurors could follow and they were nodding their heads like an agreement with with their experts. So,
00:09:22
um, there's so much, you know, so they they didn't finish that case. I would think of season three, they got that
00:09:29
case. I mean, they got they have I think so many different cases. The Ted Bundy case, they could do Robert Hansen up in
00:09:37
Alaska who hunted women down like wild animals would set him loose in the wilderness. And uh, and you have that
00:09:46
case, the you have that buffalo 22 caliber killer. I mean it's just there's the Tylenol case then cases of smaller
00:09:54
no one really the public doesn't even know about but just very very interesting interesting uh you know
00:10:00
cases and they it may not follow the book they're kind of interpreting it the way they want to but but it's uh it's
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it's better than some of the other shows that uh uh that that I've seen even like
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with Criminal Minds was very successful show but behavioral science unit we don't when you you're in that unit you
00:10:19
don't So, you're not out making arrests. You're not taking cases away from police. You're not kicking down doors.
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You know, it's cerebral when you reach when you reach the uh the unit. And you're a coach. You're you're coaching
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uh uh FBI. You're coaching local law enforcement on on uh on on how to to investigate or or you know, or lead
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them, you know, in the best direction for say an unknown subject uh case. So, uh, what they portrayed in Mind Hunter
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series was good. Yeah. Hopefully, it's a five. It was a 5-year arc to the show. It's supposed to be on for 5 years. Uh,
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and uh, then there's plenty of cases to fill up those five years. So, we will see.
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>> Yes. When asked to give a brief description about Minehunter, when I recommend the show to friends and
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family, I always say it's the more adult, more intelligent real life version of Criminal Minds.
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>> Yeah. I mean, it's just uh there's such interest in that kind that kind of show
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today in these crime uh conferences around the country. It's just it's it's amazing when I haven't done any public
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speaking because the co virus but when I been going out the conferences 80 90% of
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the audience are women uh too that are really uh really into the this well they want to know cuz they too they're the
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victims of the of the kind of violent crimes that I and my colleagues have worked over the years and they're
00:11:49
interested in to better understand the personality what creates these people what makes these people you know uh
00:11:56
different than we are what what what was their backgrounds? Was it predictable that they would commit uh you know these
00:12:03
types of uh types of crimes and uh and now with all these dating services, you know, meeting people and you know at
00:12:12
locations, you don't know, you know, just because someone puts a nice picture up and gives you this background bio,
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this little bio, doesn't mean that's who the person really is. Uh my mother when
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when my since passed away, she used to tell my sister when you meet when you meet a man
00:12:29
or boy, this is years ago. When you meet a boy, ask him what his relationship is
00:12:33
with his mother. And my mother was was right on the money there because of the people who I've interviewed, some of the
00:12:39
most violent offenders, there was always an issue on the mother's side where they
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were there was this abuse or neglect of some of some type uh uh going on with them. Uh, and uh, it's they loved their
00:12:52
mother in St. John, they hated their mother. When I interviewed Gary Hidnix in Philadelphia, who kept women in the
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pit like in the movie Silence of the Lambs, I interviewed him Lesie Stall at 60 Minutes. Just got to 60 Minutes.
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That's how long ago it was, in 1991, and followed me into Pittsburgh to interview
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where I interviewed Gary Hidnik. And when I got around to talking about his mother, he just went absolutely nuts,
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you know, and and crying and and uh you know, and he he he loved her and hated her all at the same time. And she was
00:13:22
very very abusive, you know, toward him. And this is not to say that everyone is
00:13:26
good is abused turned out to be a violent, you know, anything. But I'm just saying of the people who I've
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interviewed, uh rarely I I I can't think of one that you could say came from some
00:13:37
loving, nurturing kind of background. They all have some type of uh dysfunction, you know, in their lives.
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>> Let's talk about the still unsolved terrorizing murders and threats from the unidentified serial killer who called
00:13:51
himself the Zodiac. You reviewed and profiled the Zodiac case years after the fact and still were able to offer up
00:13:59
some very fascinating and intriguing analysis about the crimes and the person who committed them.
00:14:06
>> Yeah. the uh with well with the Zodiac, we never the unit really never got involved with the uh the analysis of
00:14:15
that case. We've had a lot of people come forward over the years. There's been different suspects, you know, uh
00:14:20
you know, developed. Um when that case was going on, we really didn't even have a behavioral science unit. When we
00:14:26
finally got the case, uh it was it was when so-called Zodiac was writing a communication wrote a communication to
00:14:35
the detective who was assigned to the case. He had a private office, a private line, hotline. And uh so we got we were
00:14:45
going to do an analysis of the communication. We call it psycho linguistic analysis. All it is is just
00:14:50
you're doing a profile of the author of the communication. Um the the uh police immediately called us up and said,
00:14:58
"Stop. Forget about it." You know why? Why? We figured out who wrote the uh communication. Who was it? The
00:15:05
detective. Why? Yeah. The detective wrote the communication himself to he's trying to because he had not had any
00:15:12
good leads. No leads. Everything just died. There was nothing going on. And to perpetuate the case, he wrote this
00:15:20
so-called letter from the uh you know the the uh the Zodiac. So, uh, but as far as I mean, it's it's a case
00:15:28
if it was a case today, I I think we'd be successful, uh, when you get a case like that, uh, and and how I was
00:15:37
evolving in when I was the unit chief in the bureau and training others, it's I was kind of deemphasizing the profile
00:15:45
because because the whole the idea of a profile is you're trying to generate leads. you try try to uh peique the mind
00:15:53
of interest of people who may know uh some of the uh the characteristics of that are fitting this charact uh uh the
00:16:02
person responsible for the crime. So, I began to focus in more on on proactive techniques and uh to to to maybe get the
00:16:13
subject uh to inject himself in the investigation or get the subject to to go to a particular location uh because
00:16:21
we we may have um planted something there. We may have had a memorial service there. Uh and uh
00:16:32
give you an example. I was sent I I was sent to go before the uh uh internal affairs they call OPR office of
00:16:39
professional responsibility and and which is not good when you go before internal affairs and and so I went I
00:16:46
went before a whole group and they said John you're not lying are you to uh to the media through the media uh to the
00:16:54
public? You're not lying are you? And I said, I said, 'What do you mean? You are
00:16:58
you telling the truth? I said, 'Well, I don't know. I said, let me give you an example. I said this, there's a case in,
00:17:04
and I told him, there's a case in San Diego that u a woman car was uh broken down on off the side
00:17:12
of the road. She determined she she ran out of uh gasoline. Um no one knows where she is for a day or two. Then they
00:17:20
find her up in uh outside of San Diego in some foothills and she has a a dog collar around her neck. She's been
00:17:28
sexually assaulted and she's been gared. Uh I worked with the police. I'm telling
00:17:33
the internal affairs. I worked with the police. We came out with a series of articles. I said because it was my
00:17:39
opinion that that whoever killed her was the guy who picked her up to take her maybe to a gas
00:17:45
station. Gas station. So she thought. And so we we want to put a series of communications out looking for lead
00:17:54
value. Did anyone see anything? Did anyone see anything? Any vehicle stop, any description of a vehicle or a car?
00:18:00
We put that out. We flood the airways and and we wait a couple days and now we come out with another another we we're
00:18:07
getting very good uh leads thanking the public. We are now getting a description
00:18:11
of not only the vehicle but the individual who uh who stopped alongside of the victim's car. Um, the purpose of
00:18:19
that was to get the subject to inject himself into the investigation to uh to to come up with a legitimate reason why
00:18:27
he may have been spotted there. And sure enough, the guy in injects himself into
00:18:32
the investigation that that just so you know that I was there. I I offered her a
00:18:36
ride. She said she ran out of gas, but she she said no. So, I went on my on my merry way. So I told internal affairs
00:18:44
that was that was the guy we arrested him or the police arrested him. Now if you're telling me you're telling me that
00:18:51
my lying to the press or whatever well it's not exactly the truth. It's not the truth but we caught this or they the
00:18:59
police caught it by using this technique. So what what and so they look at me and they uh they said well let's
00:19:07
we'll just tell you something. I said, "We understand what you're saying, but if if it ever gets out or anything or
00:19:14
you you screw up, man, we're going to have your head. We're going to we're going to have your head. I'll be working
00:19:19
cattle rustling cases in but Montana or some place they're going to if if not fired from the bureau." So I started
00:19:26
really working on on on proactive kinds of things and interview interview uh techniques and suggestions because
00:19:36
because sometimes you may do a profile and it doesn't fit every characteristic. So someone will say, well this that
00:19:43
profile they they they said he would have a uh a a college education or and and this guy only he's a high school
00:19:53
high school education or well we may miss the age which is difficult. Age is difficult because uh there's
00:19:59
chronological age and behavioral age and uh and you may miss may miss that. We missed the Arthur Shaw Cross case up in
00:20:07
Rochester, New York. We missed it by about 15 years. And the reason we missed it was because he was incarcerated for
00:20:15
those 15 years for a double homicide where he killed two children. And then he gets out of prison. It's
00:20:20
unbelievable. They let him out of prison. Had to serve him 15 years. He goes up to Rochester and he starts
00:20:25
killing prostitutes up in Rochester. So he got everything right. Uh missed the age, but c but uh we staked out. We we
00:20:34
told them to stake out. If you find a body, don't recover it right away, but stake it out. And so they so the cops,
00:20:42
they they get a lead. There's a body below a bridge, an overpass below a bridge in the country and and uh the
00:20:50
there's a victim down there and it's frozen over with ice and uh they stake it out and guess what? Police are are
00:20:58
surveilling. Here comes a guy just sits on the on the edge of the the bridge eating having a drink and the victim is
00:21:08
right uh below him and that was Arthur Shaw Cross serial killer in Rochester, New York. So, so it's it's it's it's I
00:21:17
like the idea of developing, you know, uh using imagination and creativity to to catch these guys and and kind of
00:21:25
de-emphasize, like I said, deemphasize the uh uh the profile. Sometimes you could be right on the money. Some cases
00:21:31
you forget you can't you can't do it because too many maybe too many types of people could perpetrate this kind of uh
00:21:38
type of crime. Uh and u rape cases. we have surviving victims, we could be pretty good uh once if we do the right
00:21:46
kind of interview or or we coach the we coach the police to determine what was the verbal assault was, what the sexual
00:21:54
assault was, and what the physical assault was. Verbal, sexual, physical, and what was it like throughout the
00:22:01
first encounter with the victim, during the sexual assault and afterwards, verbal, sexual, physical. And if we have
00:22:09
that information, we do a good interview, we that kind of case, we can do a very good profile and come up with
00:22:15
because we have a rape type, we have like about five or six rape typologies based upon if we have that kind of
00:22:21
information where we can determine pretty good who the offender is. >> In a similar fashion, in regards to the
00:22:28
Zodiac attack at Lake Beressa, this is the murder of Cecilia Shepard in the attempted murder of Brian Hartnell.
00:22:37
During the course of tying up the victims, the Zodiac Killer, wearing a black executioner type hood with clip-on
00:22:44
sunglasses over the eyeholes disguise. He claimed to be an escaped convict from the Montana State Prison in Deer Lodge,
00:22:54
Montana, where he had killed a guard and stole a car to make a getaway. Now he's
00:23:00
telling the young couple he just needed their vehicle and money to drive and escape to Mexico. You had said you would
00:23:09
have used that information to try to draw the killer out to present himself to law enforcement and come forward.
00:23:17
What would have been your strategy to do so? >> Yeah, it would have just been to, you
00:23:24
know, to release. I I just believe in in uh working with the media, investigative
00:23:29
reporters with the media, releasing information and not sitting on you can sit on information for a period of a
00:23:35
couple of you know maybe couple of days or so but at some point you have to re you know release the uh you know release
00:23:41
the information. Now whether or not that information was true or not we we you know we wouldn't uh uh you know we
00:23:48
wouldn't have you know have uh known that uh again it would I'd have to it's been so
00:23:56
long since I even looked at that you know that case. But let me show tell you something else. So it was similar uh the
00:24:04
what he did what his technique would was he was trying to diffuse the situation.
00:24:07
He was trying to calm calm the victims down. Don't worry all I want is your vehicle. Same thing I interviewed Dennis
00:24:14
Raider the BTK strangler in a case that I did in the 70s and 80s and and never it never analysis never led to his
00:24:22
arrest. his his stupidity led to his arrest. But he used that same uh technique with the Otero family when he
00:24:30
killed the Otto and and the uh the children, the mother and father that please all I want, you know, I just want
00:24:36
your car, you know, and and your money. I'm not going to do anything to you. And
00:24:40
and and so that they allowed uh it was a very good motus operandi. It allowed him
00:24:47
to diffuse the situation and uh uh and gain control of them and and uh you know and tie them up. Uh it's going back to
00:24:57
the Zodiac to kind of it kind of shows you though that's pretty sophisticated. It's a pretty good MMO uh you know to
00:25:07
use and almost sounds like uh it's been so long it almost sounds like a law enforcement technique. Dennis Rider uh
00:25:15
was a pseudo law enforcement. You know, he was a compliance officer in town. He was studying criminal justice at Witchah
00:25:21
State. Uh so uh and a lot of these serial killer types do have law enforcement backgrounds looking like the
00:25:29
Golden Gate killer uh you know out there and uh but even others who or you ask them what uh what would be your favorite
00:25:38
uh profession be generally it's law enforcement is what they pick and some of them act even actually work as
00:25:43
security guards. So, but I sometimes it's disturbing to uh to see how I can't think of the name. You probably uh know
00:25:54
this, Nick, the the case in Indiana of the two little girls that were on that bridge.
00:25:59
>> Yes. The murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German from Deli, Indiana. I did
00:26:06
a brief interview on I think it was Good Morning America and they I had that other book out the Killer Cross and they
00:26:14
threw out that case and and they never I mean you can sit on that information but
00:26:19
when they sit on had the the audio tapes the the audio tapes and uh you know was
00:26:25
like I think if I call it something like come with me follow me or something like
00:26:28
come with me. >> Yes. The perpetrator said guys down the hill. >> Yeah. And they sound authoritarian, man.
00:26:35
I mean, you know, and they sat on that for God, wasn't it like 2 years or so? It was it was ridiculous. You don't you
00:26:44
don't sit on on something like uh, you know, like that uh, you know, for that period of time. That case to me that was
00:26:52
a solvable kind of case. that is not a it's not a case where some stranger comes roaming into a a community and
00:27:00
just by the fluke you know and this I think it was like a winter day he he's comes across this railroad trestle and
00:27:07
he confronts these girl it's like he has there's this knowledge of knowledge of the area that's his comfort zone that
00:27:15
area there whatever that area is like I don't I just don't know I know it was just rural I don't know we don't know
00:27:21
how they were killed if you knew how they were killed IA even uh you like I said you can sit on it for a while but
00:27:28
or or but I think it was would have been very solable if I would have known like
00:27:33
were they sexually assaulted? Yes or no? Were they both sexually assaulted? Were
00:27:38
they were they redressed? Were they unclothed? Were they did he pose the bodies? Uh did he try to secrete the
00:27:44
bodies? Hide the bodies from uh from from open view? Are they missing anything any jewelry? Any clothing or
00:27:51
any anything like that? uh method of death. Uh who can we can we determine who was killed first? Uh yeah, it's a
00:27:59
solvable it's really a solvable case, but not not a year later, two years, you know, two years later. I mean, unless
00:28:08
they they luck out and get DNA, but it's uh yeah, I just upsets me sometimes when
00:28:16
I I see why didn't they release this information? I mean, I did the same thing with the bureau, too. um with our
00:28:22
own our own cases. I mean, you got to sit on them for a while, but bits and pieces of information you can certainly
00:28:28
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[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] Mr. Douglas, you referenced BTK Dennis Raider and I was talking about the
00:29:41
Zodiac attack at Lake Beressa. Do you think that there's a high probability, a good chance that Dennis Rider learned
00:29:48
that technique by reading about the Zodiac Killer? >> Yes. Yeah. Because like I said, he was
00:29:55
in he uh was in criminal justice. In fact, the initial analysis we did and was we did one in 79 and we were just
00:30:03
getting going really. But then we did a really good one in ' 84 with a group of us and uh we we wanted to focus we told
00:30:11
the focus that over if you have a criminal justice university nearby and sure enough it was witchah in retrospect
00:30:17
he went to witchah um you know you know and very I mean they will they follow uh
00:30:27
they'll read books and things like that people will always ask Nick too a question like well can they learn from
00:30:33
from your books. I mean, it becomes like a manual and and uh not not really because what because
00:30:43
you should be able to read. You can see when things are done that the patterns just don't don't always fit there that
00:30:49
the the killer may do something to the victim that gives himself away. It may be the way the body is disposed of uh
00:30:56
say a parent killing their child and uh you know it and maybe read a book you know you know to okay what make sure you
00:31:06
don't uh uh you know let somebody else find the victim don't be the one to find the victim some it's read some case like
00:31:14
that uh but in a case like that when we find say when we found the victim we see
00:31:19
that things were done to the victim that uh the victim was buried I'm thinking of
00:31:23
a case as I'm telling you this is buried in the back of a house and the uh the there's plastic bag over the face and uh
00:31:33
part of the body uh to protect it from really from uh the from the elements, protect it from insects and uh dirt. Uh
00:31:42
it's something that uh you know that someone close to the victim would have done. So you we're not looking for a
00:31:48
stranger a stranger murder. So, so you should be able to you should be able to pick up if someone uh cuz is following a
00:31:58
a uh a case. We had we had a case of a of a this was years ago was Roy Hazelwood who since passed away. It was
00:32:08
real good. did a lot in the area of rape. And a woman uh got would get these obscene calls and she got a whistle and
00:32:16
she blew the whistle into the phone and uh she would be murdered and a whistle would be found,
00:32:24
you know, be thrown on her body. Also, a magazine, a magazine that this guy just
00:32:30
so happened to have, the killer had of a woman using that technique on an obscene
00:32:36
telephone call. Uh and these were these were these old True Detective magazines we had used to have years years ago. So,
00:32:42
so uh he got back, you know, he got he got back to her, uh in an indirect, uh in not indirect, a very direct way from
00:32:51
a magazine, uh and retaliated, but we ended up, you know, getting getting him as you as well. that guy
00:33:00
>> you referenced that a criminal could read and could study crimes and possibly
00:33:06
read your books to help them get away with murder and avoid being apprehended. One thing that I found fascinating when
00:33:15
reviewing some old video footage was a gentleman that you met and spoke with, Mark Buyers, who at one time was
00:33:23
considered a suspect, at least in the minds of the public in the West Memphis 3 case. And I noticed in that video
00:33:31
footage when he was being interviewed at his apartment, that there were several of your books on his shelves or his
00:33:38
desk. Can you tell us why you believe that Mark Buyers is not a good suspect in the West Memphis 3 case?
00:33:45
>> He had a book that I gave him a book after I I determined he was not a suspect, you know, in the uh you know,
00:33:52
in the case. Uh Mark Buyers, yeah, he recently he recently died when when he made uh that series of uh shows. What
00:34:01
was the name of the the the first one? The first one, uh, >> the HBO documentary Paradise Lost: The
00:34:08
Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills. >> He was pied with alcohol and and, uh, prescription drugs. He was he was
00:34:15
scripted uh you know through you know throughout that uh the the person who uh killed those children and uh uh uh the
00:34:27
the method and manner of of disposal told me it was not uh it was not Mark Buyers uh uh he did not have a history
00:34:38
really any kind of a major kind of history of assaulted type of behavior. Uh it was the other stepfather who was
00:34:46
never interviewed by the police throughout the years. Uh the that 50 analysis that I did uh for the team
00:34:56
that was working uh the case the ch the children uh it it it showed me and my goal was was was the could the was it a
00:35:07
teenager these three teenagers involved? No. the way that children weren't disposed of. They were uh the children
00:35:13
did have their clothes on, which would be a way of controlling the kids if they if they're stripped down or they could
00:35:18
have been playing out there and they could have been naked to begin with when someone approached them. But the way
00:35:23
they were disposed of and the person uh stuck a stick in the clothing and and and poked it down under the water uh
00:35:32
that is pretty fairly criminally uh you know sophisticated. Uh the the children died of combination of drowning and and
00:35:40
blunt force uh trauma. Uh there were people early on in the investigation said there were teeth marks. There were
00:35:47
human teeth marks on the body. But it turned out it was animal predation. Uh you know you you probably know that uh
00:35:55
you know now. But getting back to buyers, I spent hours and hours. I mean, I spent uh uh with with all the victims
00:36:04
and my goal after I determined who was who who was not responsible that this is a
00:36:11
non-solved case, they they meaning the investigative team, Peter Jackson, the director who was funding this these
00:36:20
experts here, was to talk to the parents and I got to talk to all the parents except the Moore victim. uh they had
00:36:27
since divorced and uh uh I got the mother on the phone and and uh just could not uh even even have an
00:36:35
opportunity to speak with her. I did get to speak to the other victims uh the other victim's families and at first
00:36:41
they wanted to throw me out of their homes but once I sat and explained to them how different things how what
00:36:48
happened to their children uh that that this was not a youthful type of a crime at all. Uh, and it was then again the
00:36:59
the person who they came up with as a suspect, who's who was the uh the other father, the stepfather who's never
00:37:04
interviewed. Do you remember the name, Nick? >> Terry Hobbs. >> Yeah, Terry Hobbs. Uh, I got to
00:37:09
interview I did interview uh him. He did certainly have the history history of uh of of violence. Uh they found hair
00:37:20
which was interesting, but it was uh uh human hair on a one of the uh in a liature of the shoelaces uh that was
00:37:32
used to tie one of the victims as hair uh it was mitochondrial DNA was found on the hair and also on a branch hair that
00:37:41
was mitochondrial linked to you know linked back to him. But the case the case isn't going anywhere because the if
00:37:49
they're not if they're not working the investigation uh at all. They had me speak to the district attorney uh down
00:37:56
there and and u after uh we came out with uh you know our show Peter Jackson produced
00:38:07
and um it was called West of Memphis and uh >> Mhm. Yeah, the the father uh uh go I'm
00:38:17
trying to think of let me the I'm trying to think of the uh that's the name of the show that we we
00:38:24
did did or something but anyway they had me talk to the yeah I can't but doesn't
00:38:29
matter but I spoke I did speak to to the district attorney and the district attorney um he saw the show he's kind of
00:38:36
niffed uh about our our take on it and he says and he said I don't he told me he said I don't
00:38:42
I I don't know if they uh did it or not. And I said, I do know they didn't do it.
00:38:48
They didn't do it. And I I explained to him the crime scene and and uh the type of person that would have perpetrated
00:38:54
this these crimes is not useful type of an offender. And he tells me though, he says, "Well, the timing isn't very good.
00:39:00
The timing." And I didn't know what he meant. I thought maybe timing because he just released them from prison. But it
00:39:06
turned out like 30 days later I find out the timing isn't any good because he's running for political office down there
00:39:12
and that's why the timing wasn't any good. But no one to this day I mean they didn't bring in like the AR Arkansas
00:39:18
State Police and they're very good police agency. Uh the bureau really never got involved you know in the
00:39:24
investigation uh you know either uh they were hellbent on making this a a satanic
00:39:30
type of murder. That was a big thing in that period of time. You had people like
00:39:34
Haraldo Rivera on television saying that there's 50,000 children are being abducted yearly and it's shown a satanic
00:39:41
connection. Even Oprah Winfrey had a special on her show. cops were being trained look for certain graffiti
00:39:46
indicating Satanism and and uh yeah and uh so they were hellbent on making that a satanic crime and you have Damian
00:39:54
Eckles and wearing black and and uh they had blinders on and so they they made a
00:40:00
case using uh initially Jesse Miss Kelly was so-called so-called confession uh that he you know that he gave but it's a
00:40:08
shame it was a shame uh of wrongful conviction how the lives you were pretty much pretty much destroyed. And uh and
00:40:18
so you one book I did I did a book uh law and disorder that includes that case includes the uh John Benny Ramsey case
00:40:27
and include the Amanda Knox case. All cases I was involved with. Uh I did that couple of two years three years ago
00:40:34
maybe. [Music] Thank you guys so much for joining us here in the garage. Join us again
00:40:53
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kernels on the app called Untapped. So you can see what drinks the colonel has been drinking.
00:41:09
>> That's right. Join us back here in the garage tomorrow. Until then, be good, be
00:41:13
kind, and don't litter. [Music]