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up canva one click and the font is on brand easy stay on brand and solve font crimes at canva.com the home for every
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brand [Music] [Music] never [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thank you
00:01:47
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that would like to remind us all to beware of
00:01:53
what's in the sewers of dairy M here is the captain yeah warning it's poop it's good to be seen and good to see you
00:02:01
thanks for listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend today we are drinking moncky cold
00:02:13
Snacks by the hardworking women and men over at Contract Brewery be sure to pick
00:02:18
up a couple of these blue cans with the powerful White Horse on it why because it's 16 o of refreshment moncky cold
00:02:26
snacks is a logger what kind of logger you ask americ of course garage grade three and a half bottle caps out of five
00:02:34
and a big cheers goes out to our good friends that helped us out with this week's shows first up cheers to Sherry G
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and Woodbine Maryland and a big we like your chib to Valerie and Waterford Ireland and here's a cheers to Kelly and
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Shawn and Ian from the big white truck in Scotland and last but certainly not least we have Chan Wing Chi and cowon
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Hong Kong cheers to everyone that helped us out with this week's beer fun yeah b
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r n beer run and if you'd like to support the show and get something in return check out our store Page cuz you
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could ban the van you could ban the creepy camper you could ban the tan sedan check all those out at true Crim
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garage.com and click on the store Page and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a
00:03:31
chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime [Music] the following is taken from a 2006
00:04:17
article from the Independent Record her girl is never far from Sydney Bacon's thoughts the girl lives in a
00:04:26
tupperware box right now the Box is in Hayden Lake Idaho with the University of Montana
00:04:33
student who is studying her but she'll soon be returned to Missoula for what bacon and others hope will be the next
00:04:41
step in figuring out who she is Sydney bacon who has a master's degree in forensic anthropology from the
00:04:51
University of Montana knows the girl better than almost anyone she detailed everything about her for her master's
00:04:59
thesis but someone somewhere knows her better someone knows the name that goes with the bones in the Box it's very
00:05:10
upsetting to me that she is not on a missing person's report somewhere bacon said for now the girl is known by other
00:05:18
names case number 850 9102 Christy Crystal Creek for more than 20 years Christy Crystal Creek was essentially the so
00:05:33
sister of another young woman known only as Debbie Deer Creek Debbie's nude body
00:05:40
was found in the Deer Creek drainage on Christmas Eve 1984 Christy's remains were found by a
00:05:47
bear hunter 9 months later scattered across a hillside in Crystal Creek one drainage over from Deer
00:05:56
Creek Missoula County Sheriff's Captain Greg hints has known Christy Crystal Creek from the start known about the two
00:06:05
bullets in her skull known about the possible connection to a suspect Captain hints is contacted on a
00:06:14
regular basis by people who think christe might be this woman or that but so far he's never made the
00:06:22
match but with the work being done in north Texas he is once again hopeful that Christie's identity might be closer
00:06:30
to Discovery the technology is out there hint said all we have to do now is a little more
00:06:37
work primarily that work consists of sending one of Christy's bones to North Texas then it's a matter of crossing our
00:06:45
fingers there's no getting around it we need some luck hint said the problem of course is that the
00:06:54
north Texas lab May produce a perfectly good DNA sample and have have nothing to
00:07:00
match it to if some law enforcement agency somewhere doesn't have evidence on the
00:07:06
woman or her family A match is unlikely and one of the key methods of identifying remains has already been
00:07:14
tried and failed with Christie she had very Distinctive Dentistry work done bacon said it's
00:07:22
Unique work and extreme work Christy had excellent and extensive dental care until maybe a year before her
00:07:30
death she had fillings in almost every tooth and had two root canals including one in a relatively rare
00:07:39
location and then it all just stopped about a year before she died bacon said someone stopped taking care of her or
00:07:48
she stopped taking care of herself that sort of Dentistry is often enough to identify an unknown body if
00:07:56
someone usually a family member has given the dental records to law enforcement so that they can be entered
00:08:02
into the FBI's computerized National Crime information center but there's never been a
00:08:09
match that suggests that christe might not be listed anywhere as a missing person but it's also at least remotely
00:08:17
possible the dental records weren't available chrisy was petite maybe 5T tall 18 to 21 years old she weighed
00:08:28
maybe 100 lb her remains suggest the possibility of both Caucasian and Asian Heritage and she was most likely
00:08:38
right-handed she smoked and bacon speculates may have used drugs in the last years of her
00:08:45
life I don't think that she was from around here based on the way Missoula reacts to somebody going missing she
00:08:53
said bacon has long felt Christy may be from the East Coast a runaway most most likely but that's just a
00:09:02
hunch I want to help in any way I can I want her to be able to go home to a family bacon
00:09:09
said it's now October of 2020 and Christy Crystal Creeks real identity is still unknown Christy Crystal Creek has been
00:09:21
added to the namus database the FBI's violent criminal apprehension program better known as
00:09:28
vicap at the do Network she is simply known as 3 ufmt unidentified female her remains
00:09:38
were discovered on September 9th 1985 recovered in a wooded area in Missoula County Montana no clothing
00:09:46
jewelry or other personal effects were located the victim's estimated date of death was approximately 1 year
00:09:55
prior dental X-rays and DNA are available for comparison to provide a request additional
00:10:02
information please contact the Missoula County Sheriff's Office at 406 258 3348 or the FBI violent criminal
00:10:13
apprehension program at 800 634 497 Christy Crystal Creek is only one of the victims that we will be discussing
00:10:25
this week this is true crime garage [Music] Montana or Big Sky country as I like to
00:10:52
say is the fourth largest state by area in this greatest of countries the US and
00:10:58
a we've done over 400 episodes and we've only taken this flying garage ship to Montana one time before and that was in
00:11:06
July of this year for our serial Confessor episodes now I have only seen pictures but this looks like an
00:11:15
absolutely stunning place to live I'm talking about Missoula Montana with beautiful landscapes and Earth as far as
00:11:24
the eye can see you got mountains and of course the big big guy well here we are
00:11:31
again but this time we are not in pop Montana like the Confessor shows this time we are in Missoula The Hub of the
00:11:40
five valleys and in relation to popper the other small towns in Montana Missoula is the big city today we have
00:11:49
over 75,000 people living in Missoula our story starts back in the mid 70s and since then the population has more than
00:11:58
doubled so let's go back to 1974 Missoula Montana to a city of about 30,000 people on Thursday April 11th
00:12:09
1974 the pounds family got up and started their day as usual this is a family of five very religious family
00:12:17
living in East Missoula at this time there are only four of the five family members living in the home we have
00:12:25
husband and wife which is Harvey and Donna pounds who have been married for quite a while by this time their son
00:12:32
Kenny was out of the house he is off serving this country in the armed forces their oldest daughter Karen she too is
00:12:41
grown but still living at home and their youngest is Kathy who is only 12 years old Harvey works at a local clothing
00:12:50
store and does quite a bit of work for the church that his family attends Donna works part-time at a
00:12:57
nearby Christian bookstore on this Thursday Harvey and daughter Karen will be going off to work and
00:13:05
Kathy she'll be going off to school Donna she has the day off but on this morning she's going to go off with a
00:13:13
friend and at the pounds home this morning really is nothing but routine everyone left the house
00:13:21
including Donna who again has the day off but she's picked up by a friend Donna would ride along with her friend
00:13:28
who made her Avon deliveries that's how the captain spends a lot of his free time as well Donna's friend returned and
00:13:35
dropped her back off at the pounds home this is sometime after 100 p.m. in the afternoon later that afternoon Kathy the
00:13:45
little girl 12 years old is the first one of the three to return to the home she and a friend from school went to the
00:13:53
pound's house there doing typical after school stuff enjoying some snacks watching a little
00:14:01
television a little less than 2 hours later the father husband Harvey returns home from his day job when he arrived he
00:14:09
briefly spoke with Kathy and her friend and he inquired about the whereabouts of
00:14:15
his wife Harvey went upstairs to look for her there he found several cut lengths of rope this is very unusual in
00:14:25
itself but even more so because one the family did not have any rope anywhere inside the home and two the different
00:14:34
locations of these pieces of rope there were pieces tied to the bed post in one of the bedrooms a cut piece of rope
00:14:42
dangling from the door knob in the bathroom and some rope tied to the hoses attached to the family's washing
00:14:49
machine but despite these strange discoveries his wife was nowhere to be found Harvey decided to check the
00:14:57
basement and then there at the bottom of the stairs lying face down but up against the wall was the lifeless body
00:15:05
of his wife Harvey knew she was dead and was the victim of an attack that took place inside his home yeah and of course
00:15:13
he's going to tell his children to get out of the house and they probably went to a neighbor's house but you definitely
00:15:20
want to protect them from seeing their mother like that yeah he's going to call the police and call for help the police
00:15:29
arrive on the scene and we can go through some of the evidence here Cappy the police arrived on the scene this
00:15:37
what they're looking for is how this whole thing went down of course and along with the Rope evidence they're
00:15:44
able to determine the following fairly quickly that the killing took place sometime between 1 p.m. when Donna's
00:15:52
friend dropped her off at the house and what they're a little murky on is did this murder occur before Kathy and her
00:16:03
friend arrived at the house which seems the most likely or when Harvey arrived home or did it occur shortly after he
00:16:11
arrived home they're a little suspicious of course well it seems like the perpetrator would had to spend a lot of
00:16:17
time in the house so possibly they would have left DNA or fingerprints so there's
00:16:23
no sign of a Breakin there was little sign of of any actual struggle as well this is concerning for police the cause
00:16:33
of death is 522 caliber bullets fired into the back of Donna's head there was evidence at the scene that suggests that
00:16:43
the killer as you said spent a considerable amount of time in the home this could be a couple of hours we talk
00:16:50
about the cut lengths of rope that are found in several different locations of the home right now two very important
00:16:56
key elements to this murder the weapon was found at the scene now this is not terribly uncommon but more
00:17:04
times than not when a gun is used in the commission of a homicide it is removed from the scene the killer takes it with
00:17:12
them and disposes of the gun elsewhere or keeps it sometimes for the purpose of committing future crimes yeah why do you
00:17:20
think that is well in this case the 22 caliber death instrument was not only left at the scene but but was found
00:17:29
pinned between the legs of the victim and even more Curious the gun belonged to Harvey pounds the husband okay so the
00:17:38
perpetrator comes in brings his own rope probably brings his own knife does brings other things but uses the
00:17:45
homeowner's gun correct that's the way that it looks that's the way that it sounds with their discussion going on
00:17:52
with Harvey at the time now mind you Harvey's being pretty forthcoming that's my gun number one but he's the only one
00:18:01
that can tell you if that rope came from the house or not and he's saying that we
00:18:05
didn't have any rope in the house that is not our rope now I read somewhere that this stuff was the hold back
00:18:14
information meaning that how many times she was shot and where they found the gun and who the gun
00:18:22
actually belonged to right I read several places that said that that is the the hold back
00:18:29
information now I'm not calling [ __ ] on that but if that was the hold back information they managed to hold it back
00:18:37
all of two days because all three of those items were in the newspaper two days after the murder right a couple of
00:18:45
items that were in fact held back was that Donna's clothing was found in the upstairs master bedroom also found
00:18:55
upstairs were some bullets this means that shots were fired in the upstairs of the house not just the downstairs in the
00:19:02
basement where we have our victim shot five times right but do we know if she was sexually assaulted it's believed
00:19:09
that she was but was that when she was alive or is that postmortem there is every indication
00:19:16
that the sexual assault took place upstairs in the bedroom where we found the Rope okay and they held that back at
00:19:25
the time for two days well they they held that back for quite some time actually along with the the stuff that I
00:19:33
just went through but the idea that this initial stuff was going to be held back
00:19:39
seems like a big deal I think the problem is because the murder weapon belong to Harvey pounds it's tough to
00:19:47
hold that back right because now you have a concern that he might be your suspect right and if you're walking into
00:19:54
this case as an investigator you're going okay who's the most likely suspect bing bing bing bing the husband all bing
00:20:02
bing bing bing bing it's his gun and then you start wondering did they get into an argument and then did he stage
00:20:11
this whole scene to make it look like something it wasn't mhm yeah yeah immediately Harvey was a suspect this of
00:20:19
course makes a lot of sense he's the husband you know we've all seen the shirts that say the husband did it mhm
00:20:26
truecrime garage.com the don't we don't have those anymore the murder weapon belonged to him as we said
00:20:33
and he found the body right now everyone knows that the husband or the spouse is
00:20:37
not only often an early suspect but if you watch three episodes of Dateline on two of them the spouse turns out to be
00:20:46
the murderer right then compound this with it is his gun and he found the victim it's also not terribly uncommon
00:20:54
for the person who quote found the victim to actually be the one who committed the murder right and of course
00:21:01
you have to factor in that there is no sign of forced entry so either Mrs pounds let the killer into the home or
00:21:10
the killer somehow had access to the home I just want to stop on that for a second cuz right now you say the
00:21:18
population is 75,000 today yes right so back then 30,000 and right so not a lot of people
00:21:27
I guarant to you A lot of people were not locking every door but there are a couple problems with the theory that
00:21:33
Harvey killed his wife first the police had two other leads on the case that needed to be investigated next Mrs
00:21:42
pounds was alive and well when Harvey Karen and Kathy left for the day she's alive and well when her friend drops her
00:21:49
off at 1 p.m. Kathy and her friend did not see nor encounter anyone else inside the
00:21:57
home until her father returned over an hour after the two kids arrived so if we are to believe our Witnesses Kathy and
00:22:07
her friend then Mrs Donna pounds was dead before Harvey even returned from work now going against Harvey is someone
00:22:17
in the neighborhood who says that they think that they saw Harvey's vehicle at the pound's house at some point during
00:22:25
the day but couldn't be sure all right look I'm all for see something say something but you're running a risk here
00:22:35
of of locking this man up for the rest of his life by going ah I think I saw him his vehicle at their house sometime
00:22:43
during the work day well we have five shots so do we have anybody that's a ear witness no we have no ear Witnesses in
00:22:52
the case and that's what's weird because we know that the five shots that that killed this poor woman woman took place
00:22:59
in the basement of the home okay so that's somewhat you can explain that way maybe that muffles the sound a little
00:23:06
bit but there's evidence that shots were fired at in the upstairs of the home as
00:23:11
well okay but again maybe maybe everybody's just gone maybe everybody else is just at work or at school during
00:23:18
the time that this murder took place the problem with the idea of this neighbor saying I might have seen Harvey's
00:23:25
vehicle at the pound's house during the daytime we have several people who say and confirm that Harvey was at work that
00:23:34
day for the entirety of the work day right so this I might have seen his vehicle doesn't seem like such a such a
00:23:42
it's definitely not a concrete thing but it doesn't even seem like a a good possibility at this point okay so what
00:23:47
are the other two leads in this case MH the first comes from the statement of a another potential witness this is a
00:23:57
neighbor that said that sometime during the day they saw a young man in the pound's backyard he described the young
00:24:04
man as someone who lived down the street you know it looks like this kid that lives down the street a white guy young
00:24:11
maybe roughly 20 years of age so police went to where it was thought that this young man lived and they spoke with a
00:24:18
guy named Wayne Nance M he's 18 at the time Wayne fit the description and not only did he live in the neighborhood and
00:24:28
he's lived there for several years he lives there with his father and brother um they got a fairly big family I
00:24:35
believe mother father and four kids including Wayne he was friends with the pound's
00:24:43
son Kenny remember Kenny is off at the Army at this time right so he knows the pound's family not just by living in the
00:24:51
neighborhood he was good friends with this kid at one point in their lives Wayne had been inside the pound's home
00:24:57
on several occasions police questioned the young man who said he had been home for the entirety of the day nursing a
00:25:04
cold he says I've mostly been sleeping and watching TV so he doesn't really have much of an alibi he's supposed to
00:25:13
be in school that day right police strongly question Wayne's lack of a real Alibi and they decided to keep him on
00:25:21
their very short list of suspects but other than that they did not have much to go on Plus
00:25:28
they had that other lead yeah this kid is skiing School drinking back the old robotussin jerking off to the prices
00:25:37
right this other lead they found is quite suspicious a young man 19 years of age his name Clyde Wickstrom was found
00:25:48
on Interstate 90 about 12 miles outside of town when he's found he's dying from a self-inflicted gun shot to the Head
00:25:58
oh Clyde was rushed to the hospital where he soon died police wanded and publicly they wondered and said this to
00:26:07
the papers could it be that Clyde was the young man spotted in the backyard of the pound's home now did did he have a
00:26:14
gun on him at the time yes he did okay so that to me kind of pushes him away because why would he use why would he
00:26:23
use the homeowner's gun when he had a gun with him that's a good question you know they they asked the papers they
00:26:29
were asking and wondering did he attack and kill Mrs pounds and then due to the guilt or fear of getting caught or both
00:26:38
that he decideed to take his own life that's the thing though the percentage of these killers that are actually
00:26:45
guilty or feel anything is pretty small it it can be I mean everybody has a different reaction to to their
00:26:55
actions and maybe the person look I don't want to go down that road because it's a long one and it's going to lead
00:27:01
us nowhere because as you pointed out Clyde decided to take his own life he used his own gun why would he choose to
00:27:10
use the pounds 22 found inside the home and if Clyde knew the gun used in the murder could not be tied to him well
00:27:19
then you start to wonder what's my chances of getting caught right but so if we have these two leads it's pretty
00:27:25
simple Wayne has been in their house so if his fingerprints are in the house it's kind of hard to say when they got
00:27:33
there this guy Clyde he has no connection to the family so if his fingerprints are anywhere in the house
00:27:40
then he's guilty yeah the theory quickly unraveled in just a little over 24 hours
00:27:46
after the murder of Mrs Donna pounds the Missoula County Sheriff's Office announced that any possible connection
00:27:53
between the murder of Mrs pounds mother of three and the death of 19-year-old Clyde Wickstrom had been ruled
00:28:02
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hp.com garage canva presents a true crime of design in the office Maya spots something unusual in the presentation
00:29:15
what's this it was an off-brand font her coworker explains I added the font I thought it was fun it was not Maya
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00:30:16
changer all right we're back cheers mates he's back I'm back he's back tall cans in the air everybody robas in the
00:30:26
air within days the sheriff's department announced another possibility that there
00:30:32
could be a connection between Mrs pound's murder and the slaying of a Billings Montana couple that was
00:30:39
murdered in their home a little more than 6 months before Mrs pounds was murdered law enforcement from both
00:30:47
cities announced that they would be working together to see if there was in fact the connection between what the
00:30:54
sheriff was calling two bizarre sets of crimes right but this makes the whole Community go on high alert yeah yeah and
00:31:02
we should point out that the cities although in the same state you know Montana is a big state and the two
00:31:09
cities of Missoula and Billings are about a 5H hour drive from one another so in the same state but not really
00:31:17
close at all okay so let's go through the double slangs in Billings Montana this is a young married couple and this
00:31:27
is Mr and Mrs Clifford and Linda burnhard they were found dead inside their home by Linda's mother she was
00:31:35
unable to reach her daughter and son-in-law by phone for a couple of days and decided to go to the home to
00:31:42
investigate and found both of them dead in an obvious double homicide the couple
00:31:49
were both 24 years of age and had been married for 4 years and they recently moved into this home I think it might
00:31:57
might even have been a new build Clifford was an Army Sergeant and Linda worked at the grocery store Clifford was
00:32:05
found lying face down in a pool of blood Linda was found in a bedroom sexually assaulted and
00:32:12
strangled there was no sign of forced entry into the home there was evidence that both victims at one time during the
00:32:22
attack were tied at the wrist and ankles but detectives did not locate the bindings at the scene so meaning the
00:32:30
killer took them with him also taken from the scene were several of Linda's personal items this included a suitcase
00:32:39
and some of her clothing but there were some even more bizarre things about this
00:32:44
crime scene one it appeared that the couple was getting ready to sit down for their evening dinner when something
00:32:52
terrible happened meaning they were attacked just before supper time dinner was prepared and set out on the counter
00:32:59
as if it was about to be served even more strange the table was set but not for two people the table was set for
00:33:09
three people it was looking like the bernhard's dinner guest either never arrived or killed them both he didn't
00:33:17
like what they're serving right another odd behavior of the killer would you like tuna salad he turned the heat way
00:33:26
down in the home and opened up several of the windows in the couple of days that it
00:33:33
took for the bodies to be found the low temperature was 6° during those days now if any connection was made
00:33:45
between these two horrific crimes at that time it's really unknown and probably not likely but it was never
00:33:54
really mentioned again they said two agents are going to work together on this and then it kind of disappears from
00:34:00
the news did do we have any um tampering with the thermostat at the pounds home right no
00:34:09
we did not so of course this is something we have seen in many other cases where law enforcement will say
00:34:16
they are looking for a connection either between two somewhat similar crimes or maybe a location you know we've we've
00:34:23
covered cases where they start talking about pig farms Church gun stores State Park uh even stating that they are
00:34:31
looking for a connection to a known offender someone recently picked up for something completely else but after a
00:34:37
couple of days it just Fades from the news they don't ever really announce oh we were looking at this guy and we
00:34:43
didn't find anything it just kind of goes away and we don't hear much about it again what we do hear about in the
00:34:52
Donna pounds case is a surgical glove the sheriff Department of course canvased the area immediately going door
00:35:01
Todo asking questions that's how they got the lead on the Wayne Nance the witness who said they saw a young man in
00:35:07
the pound's backyard and that was what led them to question him as said Nance was a senior
00:35:14
in high school and some of the officers thought this type of horrible heinous act could not have been perpetrated by
00:35:21
some kid from the local high school this Surgical glove however was quite important and of course they
00:35:29
thought so and it was not ever holdback information the the authorities found the glove just outside of the pound's
00:35:37
neighborhood it was a single latex or what some would call a rubber surgical glove it looked like someone had just
00:35:45
tossed It On The Ground isn't it amazing how many cases are similar like when you
00:35:51
think of the actions that probably took place in the pound's home the instruments that were brought the
00:36:01
way she was found the way that she was bound that really reminds me a lot of like BTK mhm but then you have this
00:36:12
glove that's found out in the yard remind reminds me a lot of the Tera grinstead case well you see what type of
00:36:22
people litter what type of losers who litter if you litter you're obvious a psychopath that's today's lesson kids
00:36:30
yeah so this glove is important because they believe there was blood on it so they sent it to the FBI crime labs for
00:36:39
analysis thought to be the best at the time they are hoping for two results one the very unlikely chance
00:36:48
that the glove contained both the Killer's blood and the victims or fingerprints from the person who took
00:36:56
the glove off at this time of course Captain they would just be simply looking for blood type that could
00:37:02
directly connect the killer to the victim or at the very least match the victim's blood so they know that the
00:37:09
glove was used in the commission of the crime right but of course the test would
00:37:14
take time and regardless of what the results came back with law enforcement wanted to find the match to this glove
00:37:22
right another single glove in someone's possession or even a box of gloves that match this glove so the Sheriff's Office
00:37:32
asked everyone in the area for their help they were very public about this surgical glove finding they want to know
00:37:39
has anyone seen gloves like this in someone's possession or do they know anyone that uses these types of gloves
00:37:46
more importantly If people could go outside and check their yards to see if the second glove was discarded elsewhere
00:37:55
or maybe even the gloves were tossed together and a dog or something made off with one of them we've covered true
00:38:03
crime stories where dogs show up running back to their owners with bones or body
00:38:07
parts right so the the moving of a glove does not seem strange at all now like with most towns Captain there are going
00:38:16
to be some local rumors and some of them make their way to the police or even the
00:38:23
newspapers and some of them don't and just like this case the rumors from the 70s and 80s when there is an unsolved M
00:38:32
when there is an unsolved murder are always very interesting we are coming up on Halloween the old trick-or treat time
00:38:42
and we've covered plenty of cases where they cancel Beggar's Night because of local rumors because of an unsolved
00:38:48
murder and local rumors right so what were some of the local rumors here in Missoula at the time
00:38:57
I I'm going to warn you I'm not going to go through all of them because there were quite a bit there was a a bunch of
00:39:03
stuff swirling around and we would later learn that the majority of them don't carry much weight they're just not true
00:39:13
but the more interesting ones that swirled around was the idea of a cult or witchcraft being involved in the Donna
00:39:22
pounds Murder One rumor tied directly to the murder of Donna is that an individual
00:39:30
involved in the occult or Satanist was the killer the rumor was that either a note or a letter of some type was found
00:39:41
near the Donna pounds crime scene that described the quote ritual that was that this individual needed to kill three
00:39:51
people to give themselves to Satan all right the need to kill three people first according to this rumor they
00:39:59
needed to kill or sacrifice a virgin then kill or sacrifice someone who is a faithful Christian and then the third
00:40:07
murder would be that of a betrayer if this is true then Donna pounds the wife of Harvey who spends
00:40:15
most of his time working for the church right she must be the faithful Christian
00:40:21
follower okay so that means that someone the Virgin has already been murdered and
00:40:27
then Donna pounds was killed and someone else a third victim still needs to to die or this occultist or Satanist uh for
00:40:36
them to achieve their goal so who was the Virgin well sadly there was a local case to connect that theory to and that
00:40:45
was the very sad case that started just two months earlier with the Abduction of
00:40:51
a little girl on Tuesday February 5th 197 74 a youngster described as precocious and friendly this is little
00:41:02
5-year-old sioban mcginness she vanished around 700 p.m. on that night in early February she was
00:41:11
last seen by her neighborhood friend at approximately 700 p.m. Siobhan was at her friend's house the friend lives in
00:41:19
the same neighborhood around 6:30 p.m. Siobhan's mother Bonnie called the friend's house spoke with Siobhan tells
00:41:28
her she needs to come home soon the two little girls walked from the friend's house and headed in the direction of
00:41:36
Siobhan's home right when the two reached about the halfway mark this is right near Wittier school three blocks
00:41:44
from Siobhan's home the two-p parted ways what kind of school is it elementary middle school high school I
00:41:51
have no idea uh it the papers just said Wittier School again this is only about three
00:41:57
blocks from Siobhan's home the two-part ways her friend turned around and is going ah head back to her house and
00:42:05
Siobhan presumably continued on her way however she never made it to her home yeah Siobhan's mother reported her
00:42:14
missing at 8:45 p.m. now the search intensified after a report of an attempted assault on
00:42:23
another 5-year-old in the neighborhood ear earlier that day according to police reports a man with curly red hair talked
00:42:33
this other girl into a Shack or a shed on the north side of Missoula and tried to molest her the girl according to the
00:42:42
papers escaped unharmed the February 7th newspaper featured a sketch of the man sought in
00:42:49
the molestation attempt police did say that there was no official link between the two cribes do we know if it's a
00:42:58
older man or a younger man judging by the sketch it appears to be a younger man right another lead was a report that
00:43:08
came in from another local school this is from the Paxton school officials that said A man was seen near their school
00:43:17
asking children to get into his car so that he could take pictures of them yeah that's that's an innocent hobby isn't it
00:43:25
yeah the description of this man did not match that of the description of the man
00:43:31
saw in the molestation what's wrong with people you know what I mean what's wrong
00:43:35
with people well and then you got to go a step further and you go okay what is scarier here do we have one guy going
00:43:42
around to multiple schools looking for a potential victim or do we have three individuals who are all deviates into
00:43:49
different weird stuff right unfortunately Captain Siobhan's body was found in a cul by a county road
00:43:58
worker at the Tura I believe it's pronounced Tura T R A exit from Interstate 90 she was found at approximately 3:45
00:44:11
p.m. on Thursday February 7th the body was reported to be bloodied and there was a blood trail found
00:44:21
beneath a new layer of snow so it's early February it's cold out it's Montana which gets even colder than here
00:44:31
they were experiencing snowfall within several you know a period of several days uhhuh and however this Blood got
00:44:39
there it had it got there and it was on top of some snow but then there was an additional layer of snow that had fallen
00:44:46
on top of this Blood Trail there's some weird things going on here though Captain there were no human
00:44:52
footprints found in the area but there were several dog prints found in the area and mind you they find this trail
00:45:02
of blood that leads down from the road out to this Culvert where she is eventually discovered underneath that
00:45:08
layer of the new layer of snow right but the dog didn't transfer her out there well you just you just totally poked
00:45:16
holes in my my theory I was going to say I've not found anything to confirm my suspicions but I think it's possible she
00:45:22
was dumped right at the side of the road and then dragged the dogs drag the body
00:45:27
to where she was eventually found okay look is it possible but wouldn't we have some drag marks on the body drag marks
00:45:35
uh in the area we could we could it's I just find it weird that we find dog tracks but no human
00:45:44
prints well it but also that might give you a clue of when the body was left because if the if it was dry or cold we
00:45:54
wouldn't have any Footprints of a human she was found Frozen and fully clothed now Witnesses
00:46:04
reported seeing two distinct vehicles in the area of the dump site maybe even roughly the time that it's believed that
00:46:12
she could have been dumped one of the reports states that the police were looking for a 1959 or
00:46:19
196 Ford Fair Lane with Montana license plates the other and this seems to be more they were more
00:46:29
focused on this other vehicle and you'll see why here in just a second a heavy focus on this vehicle
00:46:36
this was either a 1958 to 1960 so 1958 59 or 1960 green Cadillac with New York plates now that's very interesting
00:46:50
because this car sounds even more distinctive than the other and plus we have the out ofate plates right so it
00:46:58
might have been noticed by other people in the area at the time or even the town
00:47:02
over well not a close neighboring state right and yeah because you have New York
00:47:10
and then you have Parts Unknown and then Montana right but if part unknown is huge right if you're in Ohio and there's
00:47:17
Ohio and you see like a Indiana license plate not that big of a deal or if you see Kentucky or if you can see see
00:47:24
Michigan it's not that big of a deal but you see a New York license plate you go
00:47:29
oh that it it always sticks out a little bit more look there Captain I see you see that there's a New York City
00:47:36
Plate all right so this is interesting though too because along with this description of the car we get a
00:47:44
description of the driver of this car he looks like a guy from New York City that's right the descri the driver is
00:47:53
described as a middleaged white man weing wearing dark clothing and a baseball cap the left rear fender skirt
00:48:02
on the vehicle was missing so even more descriptiveness if that's a word right later on the autopsy
00:48:11
revealed that the little girl died from multiple stab wounds and she had been sexually assaulted now regardless
00:48:17
whether or not the two unsolved murders were connected and I know we've covered several murders by this point but I'm
00:48:23
talking about Donna pounds and Siobhan mcginness the little girl well the reason why I wouldn't discount
00:48:32
it is the idea that I think in the pounds case it almost seems like the perpetrator had this
00:48:41
idea or had this um plan and then it got switched around once he found the gun of the
00:48:52
homeowner mhm meaning like so just because they were just because the murders happened by two different uh
00:49:02
inflictions or injuries I I wouldn't separate the two necessarily correct maybe he showed up with the knife that
00:49:09
he used on Siobhan mcginness and decided that's not finds a gun or threatens the
00:49:14
homeowner uh you got any weapons and she she reveals where the the weapon may be
00:49:20
mhm and then decides to use oh I'll use the gun because there's no connection to
00:49:25
me right and I'll just leave it here because if I don't take it with me again no connection to me yeah but i' also
00:49:33
think on some level it just be easier like that you have to have some kind of more of a raw emotion more possibly a
00:49:46
hatred for the individual like they said when there's a stabbing victim it's normally a crime of
00:49:53
passion well maybe these are just sexually motivated crimes then you have to murder the person to cover it up but
00:50:01
the murder is just to cover it up mhm it's not part of the sexual fantasy right and there in lies some more
00:50:11
difficulty to me when I when I look at both of these crimes where you go okay well why is murder necessary to cover up
00:50:19
these crimes that usually points to the victim could identify the perpetrator not just in description but maybe even
00:50:27
knows them by name right and a little girl her circle is much smaller socially than than an adult than a woman who's in
00:50:37
her late 30s early 40s but generally an adult will have a much larger Social Circle than a four five or six year-old
00:50:45
child right but what I'm saying is that I think this perpetrator is I I think this
00:50:51
murderer knows his victims without the victims knowing him him as well as he knows them regardless whether or not the
00:51:00
two unsolved murders were actually connected they were now Linked In the minds of the public and this will be for
00:51:08
a couple of reasons one the satanic Panic letter rumor that was going around got to kill a virgin got to kill a
00:51:16
follower got to kill a betrayer that means that this person has achieved steps one and two and now is looking for
00:51:23
their third victim the second reason the murder rate is very very low in this area of the country Montana has a very
00:51:33
low murder rate especially at this time at the mid 70s they would usually have one or two murders a year sometimes none
00:51:43
but when they had murders they were solved they were solved easily it all too often was The Usual Suspects the
00:51:53
husband or the boyfriend did it or or someone the victim had been feuding with committed the
00:51:59
homicide so these are linked in the minds of the public simply because they don't get that many murders and both of
00:52:06
these ones are sitting there unsolved at the time two murders with extreme differences in victimology in my opinion
00:52:14
but still must be connected because they occurred within two months and a few days of each other and they are both
00:52:22
unsolved back to the Donna pounds case we still have some suspects and there was rumor surrounding our victim's
00:52:30
husband Harvey pounds local rumor was that he was having an affair leading up to the murder of his wife detectives
00:52:40
investigated this angle quite thoroughly as the local rumored was detailed enough
00:52:46
that it often named the woman that Harvey was thought to be having this affair with police spoke to this woman
00:52:54
on several veral occasions and after investigating they were having a hard time believing that the affair rumor was
00:53:02
even true but one thing they didn't like was Harvey Harvey was not only fully cooperating with the investigation this
00:53:13
is one of those weird stories Captain where we hear all the time oh this guy quit talking to police the boyfriend or
00:53:21
the husband was not cooperating right with police this is one of those weird times where they go he's fully
00:53:26
cooperating and we don't feel good about it they say that he was a little too Cooperative he was constantly out in his
00:53:35
yard and walking the neighborhood looking for Clues and then calling the sheriff's department reporting every
00:53:43
irrelevant small find that he came across they thought it was like he was trying to steer the
00:53:51
investigation yeah like he he's bringing up something he found found a block over
00:53:56
I found this rock on the side of the road and they're going oh you're just you're just throwing us off the scent
00:54:02
right that's what their thoughts are can you imagine this guy let's say he's innocent right let's say he's the victim
00:54:08
here his wife has just been killed and he's been told by police oh we're investigating this lead that somebody
00:54:13
was seing in your backyard right we're investigating this lead so much so to the point where we're begging the public
00:54:20
for their help that we found the surgical glove could you all go out in your yards and look for the second one
00:54:25
on mhm it seems to me like he's kind of doing what the police are asking the public to do he's out walking the
00:54:32
neighborhood in his yard looking for that other surgical glove or looking for right they're like go out and look for
00:54:39
this stuff and he's looking for it and they're like man right but Mr Harvey pounds don't you dare go out and look
00:54:44
for this stuff you seem a little suspicious when you do it they thought that it was like he was trying to steer
00:54:50
the investigation maybe he's trying to direct the narrative of the evidence we don't know the tied to the evidence we
00:54:58
don't know the demeanor of this individual either cuz like you know going back to the original when the
00:55:05
investigators show up and you have to talk to the husband that knowing what we know knowing that the percentage is is
00:55:14
most likely that the spouse is involved in the murder of another spouse so when you show up you don't want to just uh
00:55:25
assume that you don't want to say that they're guilty before you have any proof of that but you're going
00:55:33
to be looking at them with suspicious eyes anyways well and that was the issue within the sheriff's department itself
00:55:40
you kind of had a split down the middle of opinions with the officers and the investigators you had half the room that
00:55:49
seemed to know Harvey pounds pretty well and they understood how religious this man was and they're going he could have
00:55:57
never have killed his wife because that's not in his nature that's not who Harvey is he's not a violent individual
00:56:03
he's very involved in his church and then you have the other half of the room going maybe these rumors are true and he
00:56:11
certainly looks like a good suspect he's the husband his gun was used to kill this woman so you really had a split
00:56:19
downthe middle within the sheriff's department these people arguing these officers arguing amongst each other as
00:56:25
to what the direction of the investigation should be right one thing that Harvey reported that the sheriff's
00:56:32
department did not like at all was a bullet that he found inside his home he said that he found a bullet lodged
00:56:42
inside of a book that was in one of the rooms on a bookshelf in the upstairs the problem that the sheriff's
00:56:50
department had with this bullet that Harvey pounds found was they couldn't believe that they didn't find it right
00:56:57
this could have simply have been one of the shots that was fired upstairs and they didn't find this bullet for
00:57:02
whatever reason now the way that this was found the way that I understand it to be anyway Captain was that the book
00:57:10
was positioned as such on the shelf that the not the uh binding or whatever you the spine wasn't out it was the pages
00:57:18
the pages side was out so when this bullet was fired from wherever in the room it got lodged in some of the pages
00:57:26
of the book right but there was another rumor that was going around at the time and this had nothing to do with Harvey
00:57:34
pounds and this was something that started off sounding like a rumor but could actually be really true the rumor
00:57:45
was that this odd kid in school his name Wayne Nance he's the same one that's already been questioned by police the
00:57:52
kid that skipped school because he wasn't feeling feeling well on the same day that Donna pounds was murdered right
00:57:59
the rumor going around school was that Nance had told a few other students that he was going to kill someone before he
00:58:06
turned 19 years of age see again again they're all connected they're all little pieces of of the same
00:58:14
puzzle this reminds me of Damian Eckles right right when reviewing this case that's one thing that kept popping up
00:58:23
and you already mentioned BT and you'll see some some things that will remind you of the Golden State
00:58:30
killer as well this is really a very fascinating case and these rumors that are going around at the school Nance
00:58:39
says to a couple people hey I'm going to kill somebody before I turn 19 he's 18 at this time he's running out of time if
00:58:46
that's what he's really going to do I mean thinking back on high school and middle school I don't remember ever
00:58:53
hearing somebody say anything like that I thought was like insane like this right right violently
00:59:01
insane like I mean I heard kids say a lot of dumb stuff yeah I heard a lot of dumb [ __ ] but I told people I was going
00:59:06
to be Batman when I grew up still working on that all I turned in my job application the other day compl failure
00:59:14
yeah Gotham City mayor denied my application I'm Batman if you get a call by the way I used I Ed you as a
00:59:23
reference uh if you you need answer the phone vanderlay Industries for the next few
00:59:27
days so this kid here's what's weird about this though Captain the principal catches wind of this and it's not
00:59:36
because he's you know out in the halls and hears these kids speaking the kids that that Nance
00:59:42
supposedly told this to they weren't going around school and blabbing this to everybody no because once Donna pounds
00:59:50
is found murdered in the neighborhood where Nance lives these kids aren't blabbing about it
00:59:56
because they're afraid all of a sudden they're afraid and they've already heard the rumor of the occult
01:00:04
letter or satanic note that was supposedly found in the area of the crime scene you mean they're just afraid
01:00:11
in general not afraid of Wayne no I think it's twofold I think they're afraid in general because they is a
01:00:19
killer out there but they're they're extra afraid because they think they know the killer they think it
01:00:29
one of the kids that was in very good upstanding with the school with the teachers and the principal his name was
01:00:37
Bill and he knew Nance fairly well I wouldn't call them friends but he goes to the principal and he says look this
01:00:44
is what Wayne Nance was telling people before Donna pounds was killed that he was going to kill someone before he
01:00:52
turned 19 Wayne is weird we just all thought it was Wayne being Wayne now Donna pounds is dead and in a
01:01:01
roundabout way Bill tells the principal I believe Wayne was trying to tell me that he killed Donna pounds how this
01:01:10
comes about is Bill says that one day he's hanging out with Wayne at school again I they're not they don't seem to
01:01:17
be friends they just know each other from school right they might have to sit beside each other in class and Wayne
01:01:23
said something to Bill like it has been done or it is done and mind you bill has
01:01:32
this Donna pound's murder on his mind so he thinks that that's what Wayne is referencing and Wayne tells him no I'm
01:01:40
he's talking about something else right bill doesn't believe him bill is afraid enough that he goes to the principal to
01:01:47
tell him this begging that the principal does not you know don't tell anybody other than the police the principal's in
01:01:54
the this weird spot because he's going all right you know kids will be kids he's he's probably got several years
01:01:59
under his belt he knows how kids behave how teenagers behave and he's going is this something that I go to the police
01:02:07
with or is this just something weird that this kid is telling me again you go to the police and let them decide our
01:02:14
victim is in her early 40s the person that is rumored to be a suspect is Wayne Nance who's a senior in high school
01:02:24
the principal does mention this to the the sheriff he calls the head honcho at the sheriff's department discusses what
01:02:32
is going on there now the principal is unaware at this time that the sheriff's department actually spoke to Wayne Nance
01:02:39
early in their investigation now what you have remember we have the split room at the sheriff's
01:02:45
department where half of them believe that Harvey pounds killed his wife and the other half didn't well now the half
01:02:51
that did not believe that Harvey pounds killed his wife they think Wayne Nance killed Donna pounds what you have here
01:02:59
is you have arguments going on within the department of people saying get me a search warrant let me put the pressure
01:03:07
on Harvey pounds and I'll get a confession or I'll get the evidence you need to convict Harvey pounds you have
01:03:14
the other half of the room saying we need to look into this Wayne Nance kid this could be some serious stuff here
01:03:21
what they do is they bring both of them in for a polygraph test Wayne Nance passes the polygraph with flying
01:03:32
colors according to his answers he had nothing to do nor knows nothing about the murder of Donna
01:03:39
pounds the results of Harvey pounds' test are [Music] inconclusive want to thank everybody for joining us
01:03:57
here in the garage a lot of people have been talking about the Netflix documentary American murder about Chris
01:04:05
Watts we covered that case it's titled Christopher Watts episode 269 and 270 and you can find those episodes for free
01:04:17
just download the Stitcher app and also check out our bonus show called off the Record join us back here in the garage
01:04:24
tomorrow until then be good be kind and don't [Music] litter canva presents True Crime of design in
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