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code garage 5 when you sign up download the free Poshmark app today welcome to true crime garage wherever
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you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a guy that would
00:01:16
like to remind everyone entering the garage that there's a five dollar charge for whining he is the captain and
00:01:22
there's a thousand dollar charge if you're the colonel it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for
00:01:28
listening things for Tom a friend fresh out the fridge we have you're a Good Man
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Charlie Brown ale by Santa Cruz Mountains brewing garage grade three and three-quarter bottle caps out of five
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you're a Good Man Charlie Brown Ale is brewed with roasted malts and features aromas of toasted caramel it's brewed
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with English ale yeast for a nice crisp and classic finish and today's beer was brought to us by these classically
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awesome friends right here first up we have Meredith in Spring City Tennessee yeah if I created Abbey Road because use
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a piece of [ __ ] Charlie Brown next up we have Kelly in st. Petersburg Florida the
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nice GB jib jib to Cheryl and Henderson Nevada next we have Connie and parts unknown we have miss Myra in
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Nowheresville and last but not least we have Michelle who I'm guessing is in Springfield because she recommends
00:02:26
mothers brewery which I I'm almost certain captain we have recommended them before on this show I believe so Mike
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kind of said thanks everybody for filling up the fridge for this week's show and make sure you check out the
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store page because we have the Zodiac hoodies you have to order them by the seventh they ship out on the 14th
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so yes you should receive them by Christmas and that's enough of the business everybody gather round grab a
00:02:52
chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime many have told the story of Edmund Kemper but you've never heard it quite
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like this before most of the information in this case is well-known but I will lay some of it out
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here Edmund a milk Kemper the third was raised by a mother that even when he was
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just a small boy she very likely hated him Edmund like to play death ritual games
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with his sister he tried living with his father but he didn't want him either he
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grew to be a large man an extremely intelligent IDI was about six foot nine inches tall and his IQ near genius level
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some call him the ogre of Aptus as an adult he was convicted of the mutilation slayings of eight women was this hulking
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monster born evil or was he made evil this week we will study Edmund and those who have studied him before we will try
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to learn about the angry little boy that lives inside this giant homicidal man this is a look at the murderous madness
00:04:46
of Edmund Kemper the co-ed killer well I'm not an expert I'm not an authority I'm someone who has been a murderer for
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almost 20 years can you say how many people might be doing crimes like you were doing it would be a guess but it's
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not it's a far more than 35 it isn't that impossible in this society it happens are there more people they
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didn't give up how many she didn't give up I did I came in out of the cold and what I'm saying is there are some people
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who prefer it in the cold you were able to appear like a ordinary person non-threatening - I
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lived as an ordinary person most of my life even though I was living a parallel I'm increasingly sick wife other life
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one that can let me back in the car I locked myself out she opened the door for me my gun was under the seat what
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the hell am i doing telling you that am I looking am ia masochist am I looking to be tormented further we're trying to
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show you just how awful the Scott how commanding his rages God the true-crime garage army loved the hit
00:06:16
series mine hunter the show based on the real-life events of the genesis of the FBI's behavioral science unit housed at
00:06:24
FBI headquarters in Quantico Virginia on mind hunter the main characters Holden Ford and built inch are essentially the
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dramatized on-screen versions of famous real-life FBI agents John Douglas and Bob Ressler like on the show in like in
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real life these agents worked in a special unit of the FBI that had many objectives but two of the most important
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were helping local law enforcement agencies solve crimes and studying the new phenomenon at the time which was the
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realization of the significant increase of stranger on stranger crimes serial offenders and serial killers which are
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both terms now often use but back then serial offender and serial killer were new terms both coined by the special
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agents working with this unit at the FBI this week we will be discussing serial killer Edmund Kemper who spent a lot of
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time talking with the FBI over the years the general topics of discussion who was
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he what crimes did he commit and why the first series of mine hunter features some of these dramatizations of these
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talks with Kemper and the FBI now we both watch season 1 and loved it and one thing we have discussed on our show off
00:07:43
the record and I say this almost shamefully captain we both loved actor Cameron Britton as serial killer Edmund
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Kemper heck sometimes during breaks we when working we would stop the show and we both were doing Kemper impressions I
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particularly liked the scene when they were talking about the horrible murders Kemper has committed and he's offering
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the agents another slice of pizza now this is disturbing on several levels because while I'm watching the show and
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thinking to myself I could listen to Ed Kemper talk for day then the realization comes back to you
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kicks you in the teeth with the reminder that Edie Kemper was a despicable human
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being he's a monster and yet I find him somewhat charming and some might be saying well that's the TV version of
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Edie kernel and it is but if you and we have watched interviews with the real Edie Kemper it's very similar so we felt
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bad about that but we're not alone in our liking of the TV version of Kemper because actor Cameron Britton did win an
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Emmy for his work on the show yeah well on some of the lines that they use in the show are direct lines from the
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interviews that were recorded so let's go to the real-life version of the genesis of the FBI's behavioral science
00:09:05
unit and case study of Edmund Kemper now interviewing serial killers so it was it
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was John Douglas that suggested to Bob wrestler that since there were so many serial killers locked up that they
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should start talking to them to see if they would talk about what they had done and why they believed that they did it
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one just like you here earlier with the pizza offering the pizza the FBI would offer them a special meal
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like hey if you interview with us we can get you a pizza or we can use some specialty sub or something that you
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can't get in prison well Bob Ressler agreed with Douglas and they decided that they were going to start
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interviewing these guys and actually they decided that while they were in California helping law enforcement to
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start there because as we all know from the various cases we have covered here in the garage California has certainly
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had it's more than fair share of weird crimes and serial killers yeah so this was 1978 and they're going to go
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interview their first serial killer and they decided to start with Edie Kemper Edie was housed at the California
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medical facility in Vacaville California they decided their best method of going
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about this was to show up unannounced and without permission from the FBI and without giving the prison prior notice
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as well so this is for two reasons one the FBI these guys believe the FBI would have
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told them no you can't go around interviewing serials right and - they also believe if the meeting was
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scheduled with the inmate that the inmate would likely be considered a snitch by the other prisoners thus
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possibly putting their subject in danger and making them far less likely to cooperate and agree to these interviews
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so if they showed up unannounced the other inmates would just assume that they simply were investigating a case or
00:11:00
investigating something or other now we have to consider how terrifying this could be even for federal agents first
00:11:08
they can't go in there with their gun or weapon you know they don't want those things
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working their way into the you know population right and second they have to sign waivers agreeing that if they were
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to be taken hostage at any time that they understood that they would not be bargained for well on both these men
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they're gonna go in as a pair so both of these men are trained but ed is also six
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nine that's a big boy yeah basically locked alone in a room with six foot nine inch tall almost 300-pound man and
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then another thing that Douglass was concerned about was the IQ of Edmund Kemper now I gotta be honest with you
00:11:53
here captain I've seen this IQ kind of all over the shop I've seen it listed as high as 146
00:12:00
and as low as 131 yeah or 31 well I do know that he was tested at least twice so that might be the cause of some of
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these variations I also understand that there's multiple versions of the what we
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would just call the IQ test which could give a different score so to speak sound
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like credit scores there's different top levels of different credit scores yes and so we have Douglas who he thought to
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himself and I'm sure he discusses with Ressler in advance he was a little worried that you know these guys are
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used to being the smartest guys in the room and now they're in there with this giant and they're worried that he's
00:12:43
than them you know so physically he could overpower them mentally he might be able to manipulate them or to
00:12:50
[ __ ] them to put it quite frank right but like I said both these guys are trained individuals these guys have
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made it to the FBI so they've dealt with some of the scum of the earth mmm oh yeah so they're gonna I mean but just
00:13:05
imagine if you're not trained at all right some of these police officers have taken criminals that have done heinous
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crimes and they had to lock them up handcuffed them put them in the backseat of their car and transport them to
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another prison or to another jail by themselves mm-hmm and so yes this is a this sounds crazy to us to go hey you're
00:13:30
gonna go in to this little steel cage with this killer but uh but I also think these guys are a lot tougher them that
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maybe he gave him credit for well you and I discussed Wickline which was a somebody that was put to death
00:13:47
here in Ohio for a couple of murders yeah and Wickline was a large man who was quite strong as well and he was
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intelligent too he was not as big as Edmund Kemper his IQ was probably not as high as Edmund
00:14:01
Kemper Zinn and he he was a guy that you know we spoke to several officers that said I knew guys that had to transport
00:14:10
him I knew guys it had to be in a room with Wickline and they told they went to their superiors in advance and said I
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refuse to be alone with him right if I'm going to be in a room or in a car with this guy
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there better be multiples you know there better be a bunch of good guys and only
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one Wickline so the thing with you know and like you said these guys are trained
00:14:30
these guys are skilled individual Douglas was a I believe he was a boxer in in college you know so so a bit of a
00:14:39
tough guy I guess yeah I mean this lucky if you're a trained boxer and then you have to you had to deal with the scum of
00:14:46
the earth those guys aren't off they're not afraid of this guy but keep in mind just the
00:14:50
reach alone on Ed Kemper I mean six foot nine yeah but you know the difference between a norm
00:14:56
human in actual trained boxer I think that anytime somebody says hey I trained as a
00:15:04
boxer you don't want to fight that guy right that guy knows how to throw a punch the thing no to that it's tough
00:15:10
for us regular civilians to get over is just the idea of forget about his size or his intelligence but just the idea of
00:15:20
being in a room with somebody that you know is not only capable of murder but according to the case file it tells you
00:15:27
that he enjoyed it yeah I'm not trying to put a damper on this but I also think some of the
00:15:32
psychological warfare on this is you know II d69 he kills women hmm you know I mean like it's not like he just killed
00:15:43
anybody in everybody right you mean you mean he's not like like Russell Crowe entering the Coliseum
00:15:51
fighting - yeah are you not entertained are you not entertained so the John Douglas and Bob wrestler
00:16:01
they were interested really in truly and anything that Kemper wanted to tell them
00:16:06
but per the unit's study they were primarily interested in getting answers to the following questions one what
00:16:14
leads a person to become a serial sexual offender and what are the early warning
00:16:20
signals to what serves to encourage or to inhibit the commission of his offense 3 what types of response or coping
00:16:30
strategies by an intended victim are successful with what type of sexual offender and avoiding victimization for
00:16:39
what are the implications for his dangerousness prognosis disposition and mode of treatment
00:16:47
alright so question for you because if you watch mine hunter they don't really have questionnaires or really much of a
00:16:55
objective at the beginning or that's at least what the show portrays hmm so do you think that this was the first the
00:17:05
first things that they're trying to get answered and then that developed more later
00:17:10
I think that probably the between the two of them John Douglas and Bob Ressler that this was their primary goal right
00:17:18
from the onset of everything right I just don't think that they put pen to paper to come up with an
00:17:25
effective strategy so according to this show the TV show and what I think we can
00:17:31
kind of infer from the show is like you said they come up with basically a questionnaire hey here's kind of a
00:17:37
script to not share with the subject but between the two of you you know that you're working to get answers to these
00:17:44
set of questions right but that script happened once they got a doctor involved correct and I think what that the whole
00:17:51
genesis of that would be and where the smarts of that comes into play is these guys were extremely busy and what I mean
00:18:00
by that is when this first started they weren't being paid to or their superiors
00:18:07
didn't even understand that they were out interviewing these serial killers they were actually supposed to be there
00:18:12
on other business they're training local law enforcement agencies on how to detect and deduce certain crimes they're
00:18:19
also working with local law enforcement agencies to actually solve crimes so while they happen to be in the
00:18:25
neighborhood so to speak they're like okay well what prison is nearby and who is locked up for life or you know any
00:18:33
let's go talk to them yeah both of these guys were also original members of New Kids on the Block so they had a lot of
00:18:40
stuff going on so most of the time in the beginning until they got their grant money they were doing this on their own
00:18:50
time in the evenings and on the weekends so I think the script and I think putting together a list of actual
00:18:57
questions is really just a way to maximize their time in their efficiency while they're there talking to him
00:19:04
you've watched plenty of interviews with Ed Kemper you you know it's obvious he can just talk and talk and talk and talk
00:19:11
for hours and hours and hours when he graduated he was most likely to have a podcast in his high school class so the
00:19:20
the interesting thing here though is you asked do you believe that these were were questions that they saw
00:19:27
answers to right from the beginning yeah does it because if I'm wrong it made it
00:19:33
seem like we don't know what to expect so let's just go in there and see if we could get him talking I think that's the
00:19:40
truth I think that's the truth on some level we do know that this was their objective because this was later
00:19:46
released many years later this was after they got their grant money it's kind of
00:19:51
to champion their cause so to speak they released these sets of questions hey this is what we're looking for when we
00:19:58
interview these guys in an FBI news bulletin to the rest of their department in their agencies I'm confused in real
00:20:04
life with the TV show but also in this TV show wasn't the first meeting a solo meeting where he actually didn't go in
00:20:13
with his partner well that's a dramatization in real life there were three individuals this sat down with Ed
00:20:20
Kemper the first time and I don't know the name of the other officer involved and I can to be honest with you I think
00:20:29
it was a local FBI agent you know Douglas in wrestler not local to the area right I think that that FBI agent
00:20:38
probably worked because they had not been in a prison yet and they didn't know that hey you could just walk up
00:20:45
within flashier FBI badge and most the time that works to get into the prison right well cuz a lot of these prison
00:20:51
guards or local officers had a lot of respect for the FBI well think about two of the questions that they listed there
00:20:58
within those four you know and they're all kind of lengthy questions if you really dissect them each one is actually
00:21:04
multiple questions worked into one question right but the simplicity of it is two things one what is the early
00:21:13
warning signals of who this person could turn into be I know the answer too much
00:21:18
flicky flicky and then too this is interesting what can a victim do if you find yourself it caught up with an individual
00:21:28
like this a serial killer serial rapist what can I do to try to get myself out of this situation and it be
00:21:36
a viewer wise you know are there things that I can say things that I can do are there actions I can take or reactions to
00:21:43
this madman that I can use to to save my own life and get me out of this situation right because what we've seen
00:21:49
with Bundy you're gonna see with Kemper you're gonna see with other serial killers that they will have moments
00:21:57
where everything you know this plan that normally takes place normally these serial killers it's like after the first
00:22:06
attack or the second attack then they start going well this is how I'm gonna do it this is my ruse to get them in my
00:22:12
car then we go here then we drive this and then we do this and then I pulled my gun on them and they kind of have a
00:22:18
routine that they're building but there's also times where it's like my routine was to pick up pick up a
00:22:23
hitchhiker or my routine was to pick up a sex worker and they will do that and they just drop the individual off and
00:22:30
there is no murder right so what made those difference than the actual attacks the simplicity of both of those
00:22:38
questions and actually in my opinion almost all four of those questions is really early detection of a serial
00:22:45
killer and preventing more loss of life you know we have how can a victim get out of this situation one as law
00:22:53
enforcement you want a victim to get out of the situation not only to save their
00:22:56
own life but to help you solve the crime help you make an arrest somebody that could later identify somebody that did
00:23:03
something terrible to them or at least attempted to do so and then we have the early warning signals you know the early
00:23:09
signs of of the creation of the serial killers if I could just interject for a second this has been on my mind all
00:23:18
morning but we're talking about serial killers so it's relevant okay don't give me those eyes big shout out to Bill burr
00:23:26
the comedian I was watching his show last night his cartoons show on Netflix f is for family and there's a scene
00:23:35
where he's arguing with this kid and he starts fighting the kid mm-hmm and then the dad comes up and he's like what do
00:23:43
you what are you doing you're trying to fight my nine-year-old son you what what
00:23:47
are you some kind of [ __ ] right and then you notice that the guy's name on his name
00:23:53
badge that's fighting bill Berg's character his last name is Dahmer and he's then he starts calling his son
00:24:01
Jeffery and the kid has blonde hair with the little glasses and I just thought I
00:24:07
can't one I can't get away from true crime but how clever it is that he just kind of threw it in there like I wonder
00:24:14
how many people watch that and didn't even know that it was Jeffrey Dahmer and true crimes kind of seeped its way into
00:24:20
all different kinds of media well on the fact too that like the cartoon is based
00:24:25
around that time period where Jeffrey Dahmer would have been manjil okay okay well but a key thing to keep in mind
00:24:32
when talking to these serial killer types and we've touched on this a bit already is that they are often skilled
00:24:41
manipulators and some of them quite intelligent which as is the case with Kemper so it was it was and is extremely
00:24:49
important that the FBI agents know the case inside and out in order to hopefully get the answers to the
00:24:56
questions and to advance the FBI's ability to prevent detect and capture serial offenders and serial killers now
00:25:07
the agents are going to want to learn everything they can about Kimber's childhood environment relationships
00:25:14
crimes habits and his arrest but they're gonna want to know this in his own words
00:25:20
right from his mouth and when we come back we will talk about some of the things that they learn
00:25:38
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your mother worked there yes I was also involved in killing coeds because my mother was associated with college work
00:30:16
college co-eds women and had had very strong and violently outspoken position on men for much of my upbringing my
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mother was a sick angry hungry and very sad woman I hated her but I wanted to love my mother and I watched the alcohol
00:30:41
increase I watched her social life drop off I watched her get bizarre she had terrible pain from her life earlier life
00:30:50
her upbringing a failed marriage with my father I'm a constant reminder of that failure I hate
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to distill it down into such the one word reality is like dad there's a lot that leads into that happening but that
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is what happened they represented not what my mother was but what she liked what she coveted what was important to
00:31:11
her and I was destroying it why did you actually kill the girls my frustration my inability to communicate socially
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sexually I wasn't impotent but emotionally I was impotent I was scared to death of
00:31:30
failing in male-female relationships I knew absolutely nothing about that whole area even if just sitting down and
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talking with the young lady I need to be able to really communicate and ironically enough that's why I began
00:31:44
picking people up and I'm picking up young women and I'm going a little bit farther each time it's a daring kind of
00:31:50
a thing at first there wasn't a gun I'm driving along we'd go to a vulnerable place there aren't people watching where
00:31:59
I could act out and I say no I can't and then a gun is in the car hidden and this craving this awful raging eating
00:32:10
feeling inside I could feel it consuming my insides this fantastic passion it was
00:32:22
overwhelming me it was like drugs it was like alcohol a little isn't enough at first it is and as you adjust to that
00:32:30
psychologically and physically you take more and more and more it's the same process so it finally came down to the
00:32:36
thing of do I dare bring this gun out already realizing if that gun comes out something has to happen
00:32:44
Edmund amel Kemper the third was born December 18 1948 in Burbank California now during his childhood Kemper was
00:32:54
physically and emotionally abused by his alcoholic mother Claire Nell who was divorced from his father before the
00:33:02
divorce ed was close with his father after the divorce Ed's mother hated him and it's believed this is because Edie
00:33:09
looked almost exactly like his father one of EDS favorite games to play as a boy was a game that he invented in which
00:33:17
he called it gas chamber or the gas chamber this would be a game that he played with his sister where they would
00:33:24
take turns basically pretending to be gassed or gassing one another and then he would
00:33:30
ride around pretending to be in pain on the floor as he's pretending to die because of this game that they were
00:33:38
playing now why Claire Nell and Ed's two sisters slept upstairs she made her son at the age of just
00:33:46
eight years old sleep in the dark and cold basement alone at night this is likely that she
00:33:54
did this for many reasons but the reason most often cited for this treatment or abuse was she was afraid
00:34:01
Edie would molest or rape one of his sisters so and we've heard in several interviews Edie described this and he
00:34:10
describes it in a way that makes you really realize how tormenting this was for him this was a
00:34:18
form of some kind of psychological abuse because he was afraid to be in the basement by himself right but there was
00:34:24
there any evidence that he would do this or is this just a made-up nonsense fear
00:34:31
by his mother oh then he would rape or molest the sister right that's a really good question and I've this is the thing
00:34:40
that I've often wondered about because now let's say you're his mother you're now in a situation where much later in
00:34:50
life this is projected as being a form of abuse and torment that you instilled on only one child out of three right you
00:34:59
kind of signaled out this dude singled out this dude and put him through hell and you know it's it's kind of like a
00:35:05
Cinderella situation right treat one bad and the other good well but you hit on something important here what if there
00:35:13
is some type of evidence that he would have molested or maybe even raped his sister yeah then in a sense you're
00:35:21
preventing the torture or abuse of another of your children you see what I mean by putting him in the basement
00:35:28
well right and you're not puttin him out in a shed right but now this is also the
00:35:33
50s so the basement they're not what basements are now a basements must have been terrible in the 50 Ryan they're
00:35:40
probably wet and I I heard also that he could hear rats possibly yeah so the thing when we talk about Edmund Kemper
00:35:49
here that we should be completely clear about regarding this story is that there
00:35:55
has been variations of his childhood and variations of his story throughout the years I do wonder what is fact and what
00:36:05
is fiction after all these years have passed I do know from an interview that he gave he
00:36:11
described sleeping in the basement and described it simply as every night he would go down he you know he would he
00:36:19
would walk down the stairs right so picture like an old rickety wooden staircase he would walk down the
00:36:26
stairs and there was a single light at the bottom of the staircase and he would you know it has the string hanging
00:36:33
from it he would reach up and he would pull the string to turn it on and then he said that that would only light up
00:36:39
basically that corner of the basement right well he slept in the far corner away from that so he would walk all the
00:36:47
way because he was afraid of being in the dark in the basement by himself well that was that's the age where your
00:36:53
mom says go get the towel out of the basement you go okay and then you brave the courage bits middle of the day and
00:36:59
you turn on the light and then you grab the towel and now you have to turn off the light but you have to run up the
00:37:05
steps you're so afraid that something's gonna grab you right so he would walk the length of the basement basically to
00:37:14
the other end where there was another light hanging and he would put you know with a string and he would pull the
00:37:20
string and turn that light on and then he would walk all the way back to turn off the light that was near the stairs
00:37:25
and he there most reports and stories would say that he was locked in the basement every night I don't know if
00:37:34
that in fact is true because his own words state that he he was in charge of closing the the basement door
00:37:42
he actually references that he would get yelled at by his mom because of the the
00:37:46
cold would seep up into the house if he didn't close the basement door and she didn't want to feel the cold wow that's
00:37:54
so nice of her I don't know if he could hear rats you know then that's the other
00:37:59
rumor was that he could hear the rats scratching around in the night hour if that was just made up in his head yeah
00:38:05
or if it's just the story to make it worse than what it actually was and all reality let's say there were no rats at
00:38:12
the very least we have an eight-year-old boy somebody who's very young mentally young as well emotionally young sleeping
00:38:21
by himself in a dark cold basement to which it's so cold that he's required to shut the door so the cold doesn't seep
00:38:28
into the rest of the house and at the very least in the middle of the night he's gonna hear the furnace turning on
00:38:33
and off so there would be noises that would probably startle him and wake him up or scare him throughout
00:38:40
the night all right and on top of that why are you there why are you in the basement if you know it's
00:38:47
because your mother fears this then it's late and again if there's no evidence that you're gonna do this or even
00:38:54
capable of doing that do you then become capable of doing it because you are essentially being accused of being
00:39:01
capable of doing it well the other thing too captain is it is no question that his mother was an alcoholic so there
00:39:11
could be a skewed perception on her behalf as to what was going on in her home if she was drunk or under the
00:39:19
influence a lot of the time while she was home but Kemper did engage in psychotic and psychopathic behavior
00:39:26
early on so he started off by dismembering his sister's dolls this was all based around a violent fantasy that
00:39:35
he would later tell us about killing his mother and his sisters now one book describes this scenario pretty simply in
00:39:42
something something like this stating that as Edie sat awake in the cold dark basement at night and his hatred grew
00:39:50
and grew he fantasized about killing the females upstairs so right because he's less than right and they made him less
00:39:58
than but also just because your son rips apart your daughter's baby you know our
00:40:03
Barbie dolls I don't know if that's a sign of anything the fact that he is stating that it was a replication of how
00:40:13
he would murder his family now that's that's a whole different level but a kid just ripping apart a doll that's
00:40:19
sometimes boys will just be boys yeah and he said that he started off by like popping off their heads you know so like
00:40:26
if you picture like a Barbie doll or any kind of doll they usually had like that
00:40:31
plastic head connected to a much stiffer stronger sturdier plastic body and he says you know he would get like pleasure
00:40:39
from hearing that that noise when he would pull the head from the body right well later he said that he actually
00:40:47
believes he even received some kind of or got some kind of sexual arousal by doing this and look I'm just gonna
00:40:54
put this question out now because we're gonna be talking a lot about his viewpoints on things and again this is
00:41:01
this is also hindsight is he just making some of this stuff up later in life to make him seem more interesting I mean
00:41:09
this is a guy that wants to talk he wants to be heard he wants people listen to him are they more likely to listen to
00:41:17
you if you're coming up with these and arresting scenarios mm-hmm well and here's Captain where I think we should
00:41:25
probably drop a bit of a warning for the listeners as we're going to get into a couple things that I know some people
00:41:32
don't like to hear about and this is typical behavior of a lot of these serial killers so some of you might want
00:41:40
to just kind of fast forward about a minute minute and a half or so so one of these behaviors that Kemper Kemper was
00:41:49
showing us as a young man when he was a teenager early in his teen years this included
00:41:56
the torture and killing of animals now the family had two cats one of them he buried alive and he later dug it up in
00:42:04
which he stored the carcass of the cat in a closet in their house and then the second cat he killed with a machete so
00:42:13
this is a different situation much different one buried alive the other he's actually physically attacking it
00:42:19
with a machete to the point of he's getting blood on himself during the course of killing this animal right but
00:42:25
this is a huge step up from dismembering dolls yes and actually I found this quite interesting some psychologists say
00:42:34
that cats are the most killed animals by these young later to be serial killers because of a couple of psychological
00:42:43
reasons one most by far most serial killers are men and many have suggested that the cat on some psychological level
00:42:53
is representative of the female gender right and then a lot of these guys kill for their hate of a single female or of
00:43:01
all of the gender well I think you see this with dahmer you also saw with the cat torture
00:43:09
videos of Luka Magnotta aka pukin ah ha de but in that scenario with the Luka Magnotta case his victim was was a male
00:43:19
yeah and so that's that's why they believe that cats are usually you know we see the torture of different animals
00:43:27
we certainly did when we talked about BTK and as you mentioned several others but seems to be the cancer the most
00:43:36
often killed by these guys now this is a good time for us to introduce what the mine hunter guys would refer to as the
00:43:44
homicidal triad well hold on this is a good time to apologize for people that we probably says that two and a half
00:43:50
minutes fast forward two and a half minutes so you probably caught that tail in and we're sorry about that yes so the
00:43:57
the homicidal triad as the mine hunter guys would later come up with this is after years of studying these serial
00:44:05
killers and interviewing them and coming up with and getting information straight
00:44:09
directly from them so these behaviors these three behaviors that we would see time and time again in the childhood of
00:44:18
these eventual serial killers are these three types of things one fire starting to bedwetting and three Cruelty to
00:44:28
Animals I'm a fiow stata twisted firestarter hey so uh with that edmond is he wet in the bed is he making the
00:44:41
wet basement wetter I don't know about wetting the bed or fire-starting but we do know he was doing the cruelty to
00:44:49
animals but this is I mean throughout their studies this is something that they would see enough to the point that
00:44:55
they came up with a name for it the homicidal triad and this is something that they would see out of these serial
00:45:02
killers where they would often exhibit one or two or all three of these behaviors during their the course of
00:45:11
their childhood well there's different levels too of like pyromaniacs I mean when you're a kid especially a young boy
00:45:18
and you yet a box of matches or you get a lighter you're gonna light every toy that you
00:45:25
can on fire mm-hmm but then sometimes you're hanging out with one of your buddies and they're like to the extreme
00:45:32
and I think that's kind of what they're talking about there's always gonna be somewhat of a fascination especially
00:45:38
with little boys playing with lighters or matches yeah yeah so people out there listening shouldn't freak out if they've
00:45:46
experienced them I would freak out if your son or daughter is doing the cruelty to animals thing that seems to
00:45:52
me to be a different level but like you said some kids play with fire some some kids wet the bed
00:45:59
I mean right and I don't know how much I think years later I'm curious to see how
00:46:05
much they think the bedwetting is actually involved because it's not that's not a destructive behavior when
00:46:12
you compare it to the other two you know it's not a destructive behavior at all did you have a wedding of the bed
00:46:17
problem well but they're talking about seems like you're defending this one no I'm not defending any of it what I'm
00:46:24
saying is it ain't what they mean by bedwetting is of of a considerable older age right you know if you have a
00:46:33
three-year-old kid in there wetting the bed sometimes they're just a three-year-old kid right anyway it's
00:46:40
what we do know is Edmond grew up to hate his mother and at the age of 14 he ran away from home this is in search of
00:46:48
his father and he finds his father in Van Nuys California so when he caught up he was looking for a better basement
00:46:55
well when he caught up with his father his father had a new family and he didn't want Edmond staying with them so
00:47:02
Kemper said just him being around gave his stepmother migraine had headaches so he was shipped off to go live with his
00:47:12
father's parents on a 17 acre farm in North Fork California yeah but can you imagine though okay let's say you're not
00:47:22
well okay say you are married and then you bring your son around and your wife is saying I get migraines hmm this kid
00:47:31
gives me migraines you're really gonna pick this Looney tune over your son well you got to keep
00:47:40
in mind he's already chose to not choose his son he's right not been living with
00:47:45
his son he's already walked away from that job and from that responsibility and that's why I but you also yeah I see
00:47:54
I wonder what the actions were between you know or what kind of relationship was there violence or anything between
00:48:01
Kemper's mother father what was their dynamic like because if she is you know this alcoholic Looney tune then you'd
00:48:12
think on some level okay yeah I didn't choose you then but hey things are probably pretty bad for you so maybe I
00:48:17
should do something well he would have had a good idea and when I say he I mean Edmonds father would had a good idea
00:48:25
because I believe his and I don't remember the exact words but something something similar to this he stated that
00:48:34
being with Claire Nell with Edmonds mom was worse than the time he spent fighting in the war and he was from my
00:48:44
understanding like he referred to his time in the war he was in in served I don't know which war it was but he
00:48:49
served over a year in combat to what he referred to as suicide missions and he said being with her was worse and more
00:48:58
frightening than being in those suicide missions saying there you go so you would have to so you're you're a bit
00:49:06
yeah but well here's my point though it's worse than a suicide mission and that's what you're putting your
00:49:11
eight-year-old son through in his opinion yes and then when your son finally shows up and leaves there and
00:49:18
says look I didn't like living there so I've ice I sought you out I came and I found you I do have to give some some
00:49:28
credit here you know I'm not liking Edmonds father at all I don't I don't say he sounds like a he's a piece of
00:49:35
[ __ ] I don't appreciate him not being around for Edmonds childhood or for taking the responsibility of being a
00:49:43
real father but what I will give him credit for is sending him to his parents home
00:49:49
rather than shipping him back to Claire now alright so use a piece of [ __ ] but
00:49:55
you a little less piece of [ __ ] because you sent him with your parents well he
00:49:59
probably figured hey if I can't raise you here then I'm gonna look I turned out yeah maybe he considers he turned
00:50:06
out pretty fine and he maybe he has good fond memories of his childhood and thought well I'll send you to go live
00:50:11
with my parents he imagine what this country would be like or what this world would be like if
00:50:16
if every man actually manned up and raised their kids well that's a big portion of of this study into the serial
00:50:26
killers and why I said that we'll take a look at this situation and try to figure
00:50:31
out if Edmund Kemper was born evil or if he was made to be evil because the very
00:50:38
simplistic thought of a serial killer is this that they cannot have and and you can email me you can hit me up on the
00:50:47
blog you can do whatever you want but you it would be tough to convince me otherwise for a person to knowing and
00:50:54
willingly and plan out the murder of multiple people of multiple individuals they cannot have the same or share the
00:51:03
same emotions that quote-unquote normal people have so why don't they have the same emotions as we do what about is
00:51:12
that excluding like soldiers well again that's that to me is a different situation a serial killer is a very
00:51:22
defined type of person and killer okay where a soldier is a different definition of a killer
00:51:30
technically they both are still they both are killers but there are they're huge differences between the two so
00:51:39
again why don't they had so then the question then becomes why don't they have the
00:51:44
same emotions why don't they have the same responses as we would to their environments into behaviors around them
00:51:53
into treatments that they're receiving and this when you go back and you really get to
00:52:00
probably the simplest form of this is does it start with being a little baby and does it start with having a mother
00:52:09
that didn't want you and having a father that wasn't there and not developing those emotions and not of you know
00:52:17
developing those behaviors empathy and not developing empathy at a very young age while and also knowing that it
00:52:26
doesn't always have to be that order sometimes it's the mother that rejects them and the father is still around but
00:52:33
he is just uh not such such a great father so there I think you see it happen multiple ways yes and not all
00:52:43
serial killers had a horrible time growing up a horrible childhood but some of them did and I do understand that
00:52:50
there are a lot of people out there that had bad childhoods because look if if everybody out there that had a bad a
00:52:56
quote/unquote what they have determined to be a bad childhood right grew up to kill people in the double digits and the
00:53:03
it you know ten or more people yeah we would be running out of people on this planet so it's I'm not saying it's an
00:53:09
excuse it's more of a question of why and how alright so his father ships him off to live with his parents yes on a 17
00:53:17
acre farm in North Fork California and it seems like Edie got along well with his grandfather but not
00:53:25
so much with his grandmother his grandmother was a bit of a strict disciplinarian his grandparents got him
00:53:33
a 22 rifle for Christmas for small game hunting there are differing stories about what I'm about to tell you but the
00:53:42
simple truth of it is this that on August 27th 1964 fifteen-year-old Edmund Kemper used his Christmas present to
00:53:52
shoot his grandmother in the back three times as she sat at the kitchen table typing afterwards he stabbed her three
00:54:01
times with a kitchen knife this is because he says that he didn't want her to suffer he wanted to end it for her as
00:54:09
quickly as possible the reason being for killing his grandmother he's stated over the years that there's
00:54:16
been several reasons but the one that he cites the most often is he wanted to see
00:54:22
what it would feel like so his grandfather was out it was not home during the time when he killed his
00:54:29
grandmother and the reason why I say there are differing stories about this is because there's the way that these
00:54:37
stories go is either his grandfather was out in town shopping and then returned home or he was out hunting and the IDI
00:54:48
was mad that he could not go or upset that he could not go hunting with his grandfather well if his grandfather in
00:54:55
fact wasn't out hunting then we know he wasn't mad about that right regardless when his grandfather returned to the
00:55:03
home as Edie would describe it they had a brief interaction where his grandfather waved to him you know he's
00:55:10
getting out of his truck and he waves to him and like I said it seems like the two of them had had a good relationship
00:55:16
you know and Edie waited till his grandfather turned his back and he shot his grandfather he would later then hide
00:55:25
the body in a closet and he said that he shot his grandfather for reasons that all seemed to stem from not wanting him
00:55:35
to have discovered that that he had just killed his grandmother yeah maybe not wanting him to see the body maybe not
00:55:41
wanting him to be disappointed and in kemper yeah probably several things here so not wanting him
00:55:48
to be angry ahead or upset with that disappointed in that as you had said or also at the loss of life of his wife
00:55:55
right you know his longtime companion the weird thing though here captain and we've actually heard this with several
00:56:03
other serial killers and and how reference BTK as a prime example here his Edmund immediately felt like at any
00:56:13
time a whole bunch of people were going to come to get him like everybody in the
00:56:19
whole world probably knew what he had just done and that they're going to come up there they're going to arrest him
00:56:24
they're going to attack him they're going to kill him any number of those things right
00:56:28
and we heard that with BTK Dennis Rader would say that often when he would go out and he would kill somebody or kill
00:56:33
multiple people he felt like in the first 48 hours afterwards that the police were just going to show up at any
00:56:40
time at his door knocking and saying hey we know what you did buddy now you're arrested it's like this paranoia sets in
00:56:48
yeah that's interesting and so Edie said that in that situation he was going to shoot and kill anyone
00:56:58
that would have approached the the farm or the house at that time that was his mindset at the time so we almost have to
00:57:07
count our blessings here in some form right because he's out on a 17 acre farm out in kind of the middle of nowhere if
00:57:15
he were in a major city when he had done this can you imagine all the innocent people that weren't coming to get him
00:57:22
that would have probably had been killed that day I mean you even something as simple as the person delivering the mail
00:57:28
right you know we'd have a scenario where it would be he'd be a mass murderer and they would have caught him
00:57:35
and then the other the serial killings would have never happen well mm-hmm that's tough to say that stuff to
00:57:44
citizens not tough to say when I what I'm assuming is that in the 60s 64 if you had a guy that went on a rampage
00:57:52
going around killing people in a city that the cops are gonna come and arrest that individual yes but essentially
00:58:00
isn't that what ended up happening and what I mean by that is that okay so we get lucky that there's nobody else there
00:58:08
and at some point his paranoia it wears off and he calls his mother and explains
00:58:13
what he had done and he is going to be picked up like you said he gets arrested for killing his grandparents right
00:58:21
Kemper was committed to the attesa Darrow state hospital for the criminally insane
00:58:40
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download the free Poshmark app today all right captain I want to let everybody out there know I received a lot of great
00:59:09
emails several people asking about specific cases to cover I mentioned a few of them here one the honey and berry
00:59:16
Sherman case the Tico Lewis case the ami Mahalo Vic case and Laura Spurrier I want to point out that we did cover all
00:59:24
of these cases already and you can find all of our back catalogue it's a huge back catalog we're over 260 episodes
00:59:31
strong now you can get our back catalog for free and listen to those cases on the stitcher app we also have a show on
00:59:39
stitcher premium called off the record it's $5 a month and you get every premium show on stitcher premium all
00:59:45
right we will talk more ed Kemper the co-ed killer tomorrow back here in the garage until then everybody be good be
00:59:52
time and don't litter