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[Music] [Applause] [Music] % [Music] [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
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you are whatever you're doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me
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as always is a man that would like to remind us all that the American dream is alive and well here is the captain
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that's enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:03:42
[Music] crime after the body of 15-year-old Carrie Brown was found a brief press
00:03:58
release was issued ISU that read Thompson Detachment located the body of 15-year-old Carrie Brown of Thompson at
00:04:05
2: p.m. October 18th 1986 the body was located in a wooded area on the outskirts of Thompson Miss
00:04:14
Brown was reported missing by her parents on October 17th 1986 Foul Play is suspected and an investigation is
00:04:22
continuing okay yesterday Captain you had inquired about the location of where they found car's body at as we have
00:04:30
already covered car's friends all recall the town of Thompson to be safe and friendly it was nothing for girls to
00:04:40
walk at night not alone but no one questioned whether teens should be out at night it was a safe place in
00:04:47
1986 and Carrie as a rule didn't walk much of anywhere alone as we talked about in yesterday's trailer a Map was
00:04:56
published by the Canadian crime pedia that shows all of the points of interest in our case so we have Doug's house
00:05:05
where the party was which is right on the Northwestern edge of Thompson then we have Nicole's house which is nearby
00:05:12
and by most accounts I'm being told that this is about a two to three minute walk
00:05:18
from Doug's to Nicole's house the location where Carrie was found was not all that far away either but was
00:05:27
considered to be on the far outskirts of Town it was off of mystery Lake Road which was sort of a main drag within
00:05:35
Thompson but which turned into a two-lane Rural Road outside the city limits carry Brown was found about one
00:05:45
and a half kilometers north of the city the horse stables where Donna and Joanne
00:05:52
kept their horses was very nearby of course and Carrie was found on a dirt horse riding Trail Trail across mystery
00:06:01
Lake Road from Thompson Golf Club all of the Articles say that she was near the hydro line which is the Canadian power
00:06:11
company's electrical easement and down a deadend road it's a place one would almost certainly have to be local to
00:06:20
know this spot to know this area and one could only get there by car that's interesting to our story and of interest
00:06:30
to our investigation because there were fresh tire tracks that were visible at the scene one going back to what our
00:06:37
friend says Nicole leaves the party she sees footprints that lead down to some tire tracks well and the interesting
00:06:44
thing here too about this location where Carrie is eventually found is that from
00:06:49
my understanding this is kind of a like a local teen hangout spot so in fact that same evening the night that led up
00:07:00
to Carrie going missing and then we later find out she was killed that night that same evening Trevor and his friends
00:07:08
were actually debating where to go to meet up to drink beer and that was one of the spots that they considered
00:07:14
hanging out at near those horse stables so that really Echoes that idea that this is sort of a a teen hangout area
00:07:23
well and think about that car's leaving this party some older teens say maybe it's one maybe it's two
00:07:31
individuals maybe it's even more hey we're going to go you know just a block away or so and and have a couple drinks
00:07:38
there you want to join us and maybe she says yes again like I said it wasn't a huge party so we should be able to
00:07:46
almost identify every individual that was at the party or around the party but also we we we talked about teenagers
00:07:56
walking in and droves to the this party so is it po it should be very possible for us to identify every vehicle that
00:08:06
that was there that night exactly and just staying with the idea of honing in on this area where her body was
00:08:14
recovered from looking through my notes here it says that the spot the reason why teenagers would hang out there was
00:08:22
that this spot was close to town but it was also remote enough that there was little chance of being caught out there
00:08:32
or found by your parents or discovered by nosy adults so kids would hang out there and drink and party but as we know
00:08:41
somehow Carrie Brown 15 years old ended up there dead it's very shocking to me that there wasn't
00:08:50
more rumors swirling around in this case because it was starts off at you the events start off at a high school
00:09:01
party well we did discuss the rumor that Carrie was found nude that was a a and it's not correct we just we discussed
00:09:10
what she was wearing when her body was recovered that was just one of the rumors I'm guessing but that's the one
00:09:16
that was a strong enough rumor or repeated enough times that it made it all it made its way all the way to us
00:09:23
here over 30 years later regarding the investigation your exactly right Captain like this this is a rather large
00:09:33
investigation in part that you're interviewing so many teenagers and so many people that were
00:09:39
at that party that had come and go throughout the night people that she went to school with acquaintances things
00:09:46
like that the case File is is large is rather large in this because of the night in question now speaking of the
00:09:57
investigation in the beginning we have three lead investigators that will be working the case so it's it's three lead
00:10:04
investigators from the RCMP this was constables Pat Cahill Maggie Gregory and polygraph and
00:10:13
forensic examiner John toss I'm guessing because of a lot of the stuff that you're you are saying here captain
00:10:21
and how this crime and how The Disappearance is all described my guess would be that when this team was
00:10:29
assembled to head up the investigation the murder investigation that these three probably thought that this would
00:10:36
be a pretty open and shut case that they would be locking in on a suspect quickly
00:10:43
and find evidence to back that up well like we said there was a decent amount of kids at this party if you're law
00:10:51
enforcement you're thinking somebody heard something saw something or knows something you would think so and and
00:10:59
that's exactly where they start their investigation they're going to round up everybody that was at that party that
00:11:03
night they're going to question them they're going to go through car's home and car's bedroom they I guess she had
00:11:12
her own phone and answering machine in her room so They confiscated that so they could review the answering machine
00:11:18
and the phone they were looking into car's family her friends her acquaintances her teachers really all
00:11:25
the usual stuff that you would expect the thing here though is Carrie has no enemies nobody could think of anybody
00:11:33
that would want to do something terrible or to harm Carrie and then on top of that even with all these people that
00:11:40
they talk to there's no one that seems to have any clue as to what happened outside of Doug's house that night and
00:11:47
you were saying that Doug's mother was there but sometimes when there's these get togethers that other parents will
00:11:55
stop by just to keep the parent The Chaperone company do we know if any other parents
00:12:02
stopped by to hang out with Doug's mom because Doug's mom seemed to be upstairs the whole time maybe somebody would have
00:12:10
an adult would have seen something from my understanding and as it's reported his mother sounds like she was the only
00:12:17
adult well we say only adult but some of the kids themselves were adults because
00:12:22
there were 18yar olds at this this Gathering as well well let's dive into the information that we know about the
00:12:31
crime scene there's a good amount of information and a good amount of evidence that's going to be found at
00:12:38
this crime scene or the murder scene so the police they gathered up all these bloody branches which had sharp snapped
00:12:47
off ends that were used to beat Carrie to death so they have their murder weapon or weapons as it were in this
00:12:56
case they have blood all over the ground under Carrie's body as well so this led
00:13:02
to the logical conclusion that Carrie had been killed where she was found but the lack of mud on her clothing led to
00:13:11
another conclusion that she was almost certainly raped elsewhere perhaps in a vehicle now we know that the people that
00:13:20
found her body described this area as as a muddy area they're thinking that the lack of mud on her clothing means that
00:13:29
the sexual assault took place at a different location and that she was then brought to the spot where she was killed
00:13:37
with these branches and the that makes a lot of sense based off of the blood evidence but also the branch evidence as
00:13:44
well there were some other weird things found at this uh crime scene that could be or could not be of evidentiary value
00:13:53
here to our investigators so there was an air mattress and there was also a rubber Carm that were found on the muddy
00:14:02
ground this from the Thompson citizen website it says a vehicle got stuck in the mud there and a blue and red air
00:14:09
mattress and a black rubber floor mat were used to try and gain traction and extricate the vehicle the air mattress
00:14:19
had branches shoved under one end which police believed were used behind the stuck tires to increase traction of
00:14:27
course the finding of a rubber floor mat seems like it would be a crucial clue right that it might
00:14:35
help you help one to lock in on the makeing model of the car that was stuck in the mud yeah that's a good point and
00:14:43
that air mattress surely that could be connected to somebody definitely this is one of those things where you wish that
00:14:50
show these things to the public and ask the public for help if you don't know something ask anybody do do you know
00:14:56
this air mattress do you know somebody that had an air mattress like this previously but after the murder they no
00:15:01
longer have one well the other problem though too is like you said this is a local hangout for
00:15:07
teens and how many times have you been hanging out with one of your buddies and their dumbass gets stuck and you have to
00:15:14
push or again throw stuff under the tire to try to get traction this could have nothing to do with the actual crime
00:15:23
you're exactly right it's it's one of those situations where it may have nothing to do with the crime or it may
00:15:28
have everything to do with the crime I can see I could see someone going up there in the dark unaware that that it's
00:15:37
muddy and that they might get stuck so that's certainly a possibility but so but what a boner the the crime scene it
00:15:46
it has a decent amount of of possible EV evidence here right so we talked about the floor mat we talked about the air
00:15:55
mattress but police also lifted some distinct SHO Sho prints from that mud now photos have not been released
00:16:03
publicly again I don't know why we release things to the public and ask for help but the someone knows something
00:16:12
podcast reported that there is one very clear print that looks as though the wearer of the shoe was pushing a vehicle
00:16:22
and they say this is because the toe impression is very strong with no heel Mark they believe that it's an Adidas
00:16:32
basketball shoe Adidas the thing here that that I find of Interest too Capon when we review things like this and
00:16:38
statements like this that are coming from a crime scene I hear that that people of expert level would consider
00:16:47
this to give off the idea that somebody was pushing a vehicle whoever was wearing the shoe
00:16:54
might have been pushing a vehicle trying to get it unstuck doesn't it make you think that
00:16:59
probably two people were there like usually isn't somebody Manning the the steering wheel while somebody else is
00:17:07
pushing the vehicle from behind yeah and I don't know if you know this I couldn't
00:17:11
find this information we said there's several branches that look like weapons that they used to beat carrye do we know
00:17:20
how many branches there were I don't know how many branches they there were and unfortunately the RCMP has never
00:17:27
released photos of any of the items that we've discussed the The Mattress the rubber
00:17:34
floor mat or the shoe prints so and in some ways they won't even confirm whether they believe that these
00:17:45
items are related or not to the crime well and also local Tain hangout I know I'm going to keep hitting on this
00:17:55
point but if it was me and and my friends and we know what happened that night I wouldn't suspect one of my
00:18:03
friends to come forward even if we had nothing to do with the murders I I could see 16 17 18y old that's like I don't
00:18:12
want to come forward I don't want to be questioned you would probably be scared to death to go to law enforcement and
00:18:20
say that's my air mattress or that's my shoe print but we had nothing to do with
00:18:25
those murders so like I was saying before we have so many people at this party coming and going we should have a
00:18:33
witness and we and we do have a witness so what do they know what do they see yeah this is very important we have a
00:18:41
possible eyewitness here and police find a person who says that they saw two vehicles leaving that area the area
00:18:50
where car's body was found leaving that area that night they were were reportedly seen on the only road that
00:18:59
goes into that area so it makes sense that maybe they could be connected to this crime the witness says that these
00:19:09
vehicles he saw two vehicles and this would have been around midnight which is somewhat interesting based off of the
00:19:18
time of death as well as reported by police now it's totally unclear how reliable this sighting was because the
00:19:27
witness Shan Simmons claimed both cars had their lights off when he saw them so depending captain on how dark it was out
00:19:37
his identification of the vehicles and the one driver that he reports could be doubtful but anyway what he says is that
00:19:46
one car he saw was a 70s era green muscle car and the other vehicle was a white van and Simmons
00:19:56
passenger Larry leaper also saw the cars so we have a second individual saying that he saw
00:20:05
these vehicles as well apparently one of the witnesses described the muscle car as twoone and the other one says that it
00:20:14
was a solid color so we do have some discrepancy in their in their eyewitness statements but Simmons our main guy here
00:20:23
tells the police that he got a good look at the driver of the muscle car do we have his description of that Indie well
00:20:30
we might even have his name so this is really weird because police they they hear the description of the vehicle and
00:20:37
they're like yeah we know somebody in town that drives a car like that and it's a uh a guy named Patrick suar who
00:20:44
was 22 years old at the time now it's unclear to me Captain how suar was identified whether Simmons already knew
00:20:55
him or whether police showed him a photo array and he picked him out but Simmons told the CBC later that he's
00:21:06
saying that he was 90% sure that it was suar that he saw out there that night this Patrick suar guy so he's not
00:21:13
denying that he saw the eyewitness oh no no no sorry I got no he's he's saying that he's 90% sure that Patrick Sumer is
00:21:22
the same guy he saw out there yeah small town unique Car hard to hide but again you have to go back to the
00:21:30
idea that this is a hangout for local teens and is it possible that there was people hanging out the night before the
00:21:38
murder took place that have nothing to do with the crime well and this looks like they're going to solve the crime
00:21:45
Captain because they they go and find this Patrick suner guy within just days of the murder he's now their prime
00:21:53
suspect in the case they interview him he has no attorney present he swears up and down I have nothing to
00:22:01
do with car's murder I I'm unclear whether he even knew her at all there's nothing to suggest that he even knew who
00:22:09
Carrie was but they go ahead and they charge him anyway you know how these high school parties were you'd have some
00:22:17
15 16 17 I attended one yesterday well see you'd be in the group of people that I hated at the high
00:22:26
school party at yesterday's high school party I brought my motorcycle and I jumped a shark and um I'm now like a
00:22:33
local hero just so everybody knows well I always thought it was strange and not to give ourselves away but one of our
00:22:42
buddies grandma would go on vacation and we'd have parties at our house with without any parents knowing but I
00:22:50
remember sometimes there're being guys and girls in their early 20s at the party and I always thought
00:22:58
what kind of loser are you to show up you have nothing better to do than to go hang out with a bunch of high schoolers
00:23:06
at a high school party but this is going to bring us to a three-day trial well what it is is it's actually a
00:23:13
preliminary hearing because what they need to do is they're still in the process of even seeing if there's enough
00:23:20
evidence to take this thing to trial remember he's denying that he has any involvement at all and and they decide
00:23:28
to charge him anyway so now we got to get a judge to sort this out to see if it's going to go to trial so the
00:23:35
evidence that the RCMP gathered and presented against Patrick suner at this three-day
00:23:42
preliminary hearing was as follows a spot on the interior light of Summer's car appeared to be blood uh item number
00:23:51
two was blood stains were found on a t-shirt taken from a hamper in the summer home so his home was searched and
00:23:58
they obviously seized a few items TW 12 hairs consistent with car's hair were in
00:24:05
sumer's car on the seat and a witness testified that suer was washing his car the following day after the murder uh
00:24:13
this was a local body shop owner and a used car salesman Raleigh Becker who could see the dump so this is going to
00:24:23
sound very much like Steven Avery making a murderer suar lived at the town dump the the family's property was the the
00:24:33
town dump and this I'm sure he had a great High School experience living at the dump well and this used car salesman
00:24:40
said that you know I can see the property from my business uh where I work and and that is
00:24:48
how I saw him washing his vehicle the following day now by the time we get to this three-day preliminary hearing suar
00:24:56
has an attorney his attorney did a really good job making the court question whether there was any type of
00:25:02
sufficient evidentiary connection between suar and the actual killing let's kind of combat some of that
00:25:09
evidence if you will so the RCMP Constable John TOS assumed that the stains on his mirror on sumer's
00:25:17
vehicle's mirror were blood but they conduct test lab tests and it was determined that the stains were not
00:25:25
blood we're not sure what the the material actually was suar did say that he believed it was tomato juice it
00:25:34
doesn't really matter what it was because it wasn't blood strange it it be tomato juice I'd actually lean towards
00:25:40
maybe the idea that it'd be transmission fluid something that would be a darker red color the small blood stains on the
00:25:47
T-shirt oh this is I'm going to apologize in advance because it's going to get gross here for the next minute
00:25:54
the small blood stains on the T-shirt were the same type is carries but the shirt belonged to
00:26:00
sumer's father so they find this item when they're searching the home right and they're like oh look this appears to
00:26:07
be blood on a t-shirt we better confiscate this well very quickly they learn this shirt does not belong to our
00:26:15
suspect just somebody else that lives in the home his father yeah but if sometimes you take your father's clothes
00:26:22
and wear them right it's possible he would have access subar would have access to be wearing this shirt so here
00:26:30
becomes the problem for their evidence with this shirt yes the blood found on this t-shirt was the same blood type as
00:26:39
car's that doesn't mean that it is car's blood it's just the same blood type so it's possible that it was car's blood on
00:26:46
this shirt if that's if that's going to be the case that's a big problem for this Patrick subar suspect however keep
00:26:55
in mind he's saying that shirt belongs to my father and the blood stains the father says
00:27:02
were from zits on his dad's back that's the gross part that we got to oh that's uh delicious so the delicious treats
00:27:12
this this episode is sponsored by Dr pimple popper wash your back people um the the blood that was found on the
00:27:20
shirt was also consistent with the father's blood with Patrick sumer's father's blood so so the story makes
00:27:28
sense the story makes sense it could be his his father's blood again it's the same blood type so then the the other
00:27:35
Pro but the other problem here is Patrick Sumer would have access to that shirt but his father would have access
00:27:42
to his son's car yes he would but he's not seen at they both become no which I understand but what I'm saying is as far
00:27:49
as the defense goes you can start bringing up the fact that you can make a case that it's not Patrick but the
00:27:55
father now what about these hair samples that they found in in Patrick's car as we know now in 1986 it was
00:28:03
thought of differently but as we know now hair analysis is not exact the science on it is not exact so all you
00:28:11
can do is is compare two hairs and go yeah they're similar you can't say that they came from the same person there's
00:28:18
unless you're extracting DNA from those hairs in comparing it that's the only way that you can determine that it came
00:28:24
from your the victim so the hairs that were found in his car they just simply cannot be 100% linked to Carrie now we
00:28:35
don't have the Smoking Gun yet against Patrick but we have evidence building we'll get more into that after this
00:28:42
quick beer [Music] break this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays maybe
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all right we are back cheers mates make sure you are following us on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram @
00:31:19
True Crime garage cheers cheers to you Colonel and then the item of Summer washing his car I mean that's one of
00:31:27
those things that I always kind of laugh at because some people will say that's evidence that somebody's trying to cover
00:31:33
up a crime others say look it's just a guy washing his car suer does give a statement at the hearing regarding
00:31:40
washing his car he says that there's a couple problems with the police's timeline here he says first of
00:31:50
all I'm a mechanic and I was in school all day on Friday so I was not washing my car on Friday the day after she was
00:31:57
killed I was washing my car on Saturday and I was washing my car on Saturday because I like to keep a clean car and
00:32:07
he also points out he goes he goes above and beyond here and points out he's like
00:32:11
look if I were trying to hide something I wouldn't be washing my car at a location or in a place where many people
00:32:19
could see me not just this one witness right well in in Patrick's defense here we said that it snowed so at some point
00:32:29
they're going to put salt down on the road and a lot of people want to make sure especially with these old type
00:32:35
muscle cards that you want to get that salt off your car so it doesn't rust out the long and short of it is that the
00:32:42
crown did not present any other evidence against suar that we know of we know that the judge dismissed the Crown's
00:32:52
case this takes place in February of 1987 saying that there the circumstantial evidence against subar
00:33:01
was misinterpreted by the RCMP and that the judge decided that there was actually insufficient evidence
00:33:09
to keep Patrick suar over for a trial now one thing that's difficult on our end here Captain as we try to report
00:33:18
this the best that we can to everyone the transcripts from this preliminary hearing have never been
00:33:26
released so we we can't say if there was any other evidence against or anything else
00:33:34
that really got him off completely because we just don't have that information has not been made public I
00:33:43
would have loved to be a fly on the wall during that trial and fly on the wall during the conversations between Patrick
00:33:49
and his lawyer but now that was all taking place in 87 like you said she was raped we should
00:33:57
be able to test the seamen the DNA of that se well so in the end Summoner spent four and a half months in
00:34:05
jail before this preliminary hearing took place waiting to see if he would be tried and of course after they determin
00:34:13
that there's going to be no trial he's released he says that he still suffers from PTSD to this day from being
00:34:20
wrongfully accused well that's a lot of time to spend in jail if he if he is innocent
00:34:27
that is a long time to spend in jail for a three-day preliminary hearing well let's jump to this because you asked a a
00:34:35
brilliant question here and and knowing the details of the attack and knowing uh
00:34:41
what the victim uh in in the crime scene and the crime itself you ask a great question do
00:34:49
we have any type of DNA so Sumer is released and really all that is is like hey you know there's still some people
00:34:57
that were suspicious of Sumer even after he's released and the judge says there's
00:35:00
not enough evidence here for a trial obviously but nothing really happens in the case
00:35:07
for a long period of time now the the police themselves they try to ramp up the Public's interest in the case and
00:35:16
and revisit media attention to the case on the five-year anniversary of the unsolved murder but nothing really
00:35:23
happens until almost 10 years or a little more than 10 years later this is in 1997 when just like the band one of
00:35:31
my favorite bands clutch says we got big news this is when the Winnipeg Sun reported on June 7th
00:35:40
1997 that evidence from the scene has been stored over the years a recent breakthrough with DNA testing has put
00:35:48
the case back on the front burner results from an Ottawa lab show at least two males are respons
00:35:57
responsible so there's DNA in the case we sit here all these years later and we still do not know the source it could
00:36:04
have been from blood could have been from seen it could have been from Material under car's Nails touch DNA
00:36:12
touch DNA on items found at the scene we just don't know where they got this DNA
00:36:16
from we can speculate I don't think we need to we know some details about the attack but the the key is here that they
00:36:24
have DNA this is what will solve this case or should solve the case soon and hopefully it's solving the case
00:36:32
soon now what we can report is that Patrick suner who spent four and a half months in jail awaiting
00:36:39
a trial for the murder that he was accused of for the murder of Carrie Brown and then later released that DNA
00:36:46
does not match Patrick suar so they've been able to test the DNA it doesn't match him but look again I feel bad for
00:36:53
him but he was identified by eyewitnesses he was at least in that area the night of the crime I guess I I
00:37:04
don't know how he was identified right like that's the thing that always kind of puzzled me with this part of the
00:37:10
story it's like well it turns out not to be him he could have been in the scene at the scene or near the scene but he
00:37:17
says he wasn't and so and then the DNA kind of backs up that he didn't well not kind of it does back up that he's not
00:37:24
the Killer and in this case of the two killers but so he has really no reason to lie for not being in the area as he
00:37:35
said so I've always kind of wondered like is he just like this dude that the police knew and they say to the witness
00:37:42
like yeah we think we know who owns that car and rather than showing them a photo
00:37:46
lineup dude they just show a photo and say was this the guy and he like yeah it looks like the guy it wouldn't be the
00:37:52
first time that that situation happened law enforcement does a lot of wrong things but sometimes that's because
00:37:58
they're human could you imagine going to this crime scene seeing this 15-year-old
00:38:03
girl beaten badly beaten and knowing that she was raped and then once you get the test results she's raped by multiple
00:38:10
people now I want to throw out something there for you is because of this again we don't know how many branches but it
00:38:18
is possible that there's more than two attackers just because we have cmen from two individuals this could have been a
00:38:27
situation where there was a gang of well again we don't know where the the source
00:38:31
of the DNA but that's what I'm saying is like just because we only have two sources doesn't mean that there was only
00:38:37
two people involved I would say the more people involved the more likely that you're going to have somebody speaking
00:38:44
or there's going to be more rumors or maybe more people that um didn't have a solid Alibi for the
00:38:52
night and we're Going on 30 some years and a little followup to the information that came out in 97 about them having
00:39:01
DNA in the case and that their words are results from an Ottawa lab show at least
00:39:06
two males are responsible so that that's their words right and we can only go off
00:39:11
of off of that statement but a little followup to that this comes from the Thompson Citizen newspaper and it says
00:39:20
crime scene DNA samples gathered in 1986 came from at least two different men d DNA science was in its infancy in 1986
00:39:29
so much of the DNA evidence was reexamined and reanalyzed in the 90s new DNA samples searching for
00:39:38
matches have been taken most voluntarily some pursuant to court orders what they're saying here Captain is that they
00:39:46
either got a court order or people volunt voluntarily let them take their DNA this was from more than 100 people
00:39:56
so they've compared this to more than 100 people and they've not found a match for either of the samples that were
00:40:02
found at our crime scene but you think they'd run this through the system to see if there's somebody in jail that
00:40:08
matches this DNA uh I I'm guessing that their laws are a little different than ours but you have to be hopeful that
00:40:16
this case will be solved and it'll be solved by technology well and whatever that they can do I think it's safe to
00:40:23
say that they have done I mean they they wouldn't be out there getting court orders for people to test and compare
00:40:29
DNA if they have not already checked into whatever databases that are available to them at the time and then
00:40:38
like here I know that with when they check codus here that cotus is is checked again in the state of Ohio every
00:40:46
30 days this is very similar to like the John B ramsy case in the sense that you
00:40:51
have a lead detective on that case that has a list of individuals that he thinks
00:40:57
are responsible and now they have a task force that is head headed up by John benet's brother half brother and like
00:41:08
you said some of the individuals are volunteering their DNA willingly and others they're getting it through court
00:41:16
order or tactics like oh the guy was smoking and we collected some of his cigarettes so I think this case will be
00:41:27
solved it'll just take time because you know with all your work with project porch light that these tests are not you
00:41:38
don't get they're it's not like a covid test you're not getting a result back in
00:41:42
within a minute correct and just because you get DNA doesn't mean that you're ever going to find a link to who it
00:41:50
belongs to I mean there are many many situations where a person or persons are not in any
00:41:58
database out there so well a lot of people talk and and I don't know if you know this but I was reading about just
00:42:06
some familiar DNA test that can range from you know $5,000 to $20,000 so it's these law enforcement
00:42:19
agencies have budgets they can only do so much one article that was really interesting to me here
00:42:26
and this is honing in on a what I would deem to be a drastic step that was taken
00:42:32
by the RCMP they mailed out letters to every resident that lives in Thompson as we
00:42:39
said that's like 12,000 people and they're asking for information information specifically about Carrie
00:42:46
Brown's case a Thompson Citizen newspaper article from 2011 address some of the rumors
00:42:55
surrounding what police were asking of the residents what information they were seeking it
00:43:01
states that several witnesses reported seeing Carrie getting into a van between 10:30 p.m. and 11 p.m. others say or
00:43:11
others believe that she took a taxi and then there's other people that say that she may have walked somewhere by herself
00:43:19
from the party at Doug's house so they're asking people hey residents of Thompson do you know anything did you
00:43:27
see a van did you see somebody in a van did you talk to somebody that has a story about a van and maybe Carrie or an
00:43:33
unnamed girl did you do you have you heard any stories about a taxi cab or did anybody see anybody walking from
00:43:41
that party that's I mean I cannot think of a situation or a crime taking place here where every resident every home is
00:43:51
mailed a letter asking for information but I'm hopeful again at least two individuals and one of those individuals
00:44:01
could be listening right now this case will get solved Carrie and her family will get
00:44:10
justice so sleep tight well like we said here Captain a lot of work has been done
00:44:16
in this case and it's a decades old case several decades old case and to back up
00:44:23
some of that statement we have a CBC article by Bryce Hoy that addressed the huge case File so a lot of work has been
00:44:31
done and it's reported that at one time it was considered to be the largest unsolved Cold Case file in
00:44:39
Manitoba so it's 45 Banker boxes that hold 14,000 or more documents in details about
00:44:51
2,500 Witnesses this would be people that they spoke to witness wites friends suspects uh and even investigators that
00:44:59
were involved over the years one thing that's key here with a with an investigation this large and a paper
00:45:07
trail this large and now we're talking about two perpetrators and I believe the words were at least two males so that as
00:45:16
you pointed out earlier could mean even a higher number than two but what's interesting here and almost bizarre
00:45:24
because you don't see the typically in these types of crimes is that whoever did this or the persons responsible for
00:45:31
this seem to have been remarkably good at keeping his mouth shut or their mouth shut yeah and with the evidence like you
00:45:40
said they have think about the FBI shows you've watched with those those Banker boxes what did you say 45 of them
00:45:49
correct that is a ton of information it's very likely that law enforcement has inter interviewed one if not all
00:45:58
parties responsible for this murder and then circling back to something that you
00:46:03
had talked about and touched on briefly there Captain we need to make sure we point out this there there was a very
00:46:08
crucial line in a news story that came out not terribly long ago about this case that said that the
00:46:16
RCMP have stated have said that they sent the DNA extracted from the crime scene evidence to a private lab in the
00:46:27
United States and that another lab is conducting the genetic genealogy portion of the process to build the family tree
00:46:36
of whoever the DNA belongs to or in this case it might be two family trees what's
00:46:42
weird is that is in a news article however we've talked about how tight lipped the police have been in this case
00:46:50
and Carrie Brown's still unsolved murder but the RCMP will not address this at all uh so we don't have a confirmation
00:46:59
from the RCMP that that is what is actually taking place it's not clear to me how the newspaper the uh Thompson
00:47:07
citizen came to this information that is what they have reported so I'm hoping and I
00:47:14
know you are hoping as well captain that this is accurate information yeah definitely it would be a huge step in
00:47:20
the right direction one thing that is unfortunate is that the town of Thompson has had a significant uptick in crime
00:47:28
since Carrie Brown was killed back in 1986 a 2021 news article on Thompson citizen.
00:47:37
net by a local journalism initiative reporter Dave Baxter he reported that quote over the last few decades the city
00:47:47
of Thompson has also become known for things far more Sinister crime violence and murder cases that have never been
00:47:54
solved the city has consistently ranked among the top communities in all of Canada for rates of violent crime per
00:48:02
capita the city's mayor Colleen smook who has lived in Thompson for 43 years said it bothers her and others in town
00:48:13
that the community has become known for less than desirable reasons but she also
00:48:19
says there is more to those statistics saying our crime numbers are because they are based on a community of
00:48:28
13,500 people while we are a hub for 55,000 people and she goes on to say when we look at the stats of actual
00:48:37
crimes committed most offenses are committed and happened to persons without a Thompson
00:48:45
address so that really is the Crux of this case in my opinion the consensus seems to be that car's case is different
00:48:53
from those committed by Drifters who passed through town most people in this case seem to think that Carrie likely
00:49:02
got into a car with probably somebody she trusted and probably more than one person and then she's found by the horse
00:49:11
stables in this out of thee way area by the horse stables known to locals her family
00:49:19
says that Carrie had a major phobia of bridges and would refused to cross them unless she was with someone who could
00:49:29
comfort her and I guess at one point in her lifetime this phobia of bridges was so bad that when her family car would
00:49:40
approach a bridge she would get down on get down low in the vehicle almost to like not
00:49:49
see going over the bridge and what's interesting here is someone had to drive her across a large Bridge on mystery
00:49:56
Lake Road over the burnt Wood River to get her to where her body was eventually found and right all of the information
00:50:06
or the evidence that we're seeing at that crime scene is telling us that she very likely was killed where she was
00:50:12
found it also makes you wonder was car's murder uptick in this community because
00:50:19
one the trauma that everybody would have felt growing up even if you weren't at that party that night you would have
00:50:25
known somebody that was affected Carrie's not the only victim here her family her friends her
00:50:33
classmates so you have a type of trauma that goes through the community but also you have a case that's not solved
00:50:43
right so does that open up Pandora's Box for all the Freaks and Weirdos that go hey I could get away with this too well
00:50:53
and given the statements by the mayor and the uptick and crime and and pointing out that a lot of that crime is
00:51:02
coming from them being a hub rather than its actual citizens I you know that still it Still Remains a a possibility
00:51:11
that Carrie was the victim of a violent stranger on Stranger abduction someone driving by happen to see her or she's
00:51:19
out walking a couple blocks to her friend's house on her own and she's thrown into a vehicle
00:51:25
and and and I think you could look at this and argue both arguments pretty easily here that it was it had to be a
00:51:34
local had to be somebody that knew her that's why she got in the car that's why she was found where she was found but
00:51:39
then at the same time you can say well they've already tested the DNA against over 100 people that their names were in
00:51:46
that case File and we've not found a match yet so maybe it was some kind of random crime and a stranger on Stranger
00:51:57
crime and as we know as we always see those are very hard to solve right now the RCMP will not
00:52:07
confirm that they are using forensic genealogy in this case in Carrie Brown's case but let's all hope that they are
00:52:15
because after 36 years it seems likely that that is the only way that this case will get
00:52:24
solved [Music] [Applause] [Music] want to thank you so much for joining us here in the garage thank you so much for
00:52:39
telling a friend I get an email at least every week that says hey I I discovered
00:52:44
your show cuz my buddy listens and now I am hooked and they go back to the beginning listen from episode one till
00:52:51
now 600 and some episodes we're getting close to 200 and some episodes on off the Record and you can find that at True
00:52:59
Crime garage.com as well and you can also find recommended readings so Colonel do we have any recommended
00:53:05
readings this week this week Captain this is an oldie but a goodie this is one that we have definitely recommended
00:53:10
before and I'm very happy to be recommending it again because a few weeks ago we were talking about serial
00:53:16
killer Kenneth McDuff and that inspired me to read for the third time who killed
00:53:21
these girls which is a book about the yogurt shop the infamous Austin Texas yogurt shop murders case why am I
00:53:29
recommending it again because it is absolutely one of the best true crime books ever written one of these days
00:53:35
Captain I'm going to come out with a list of the Colonel's top true crime books of all time and this one will
00:53:40
certainly be on there you are going to want to check out who killed these girls Cold Case the yogurt shop murders by
00:53:48
Beverly Lowry you can find that great title and many more on our website's recommended page true Crim garage.com
00:53:57
that is a great idea for an episode I'm going to hold you to that maybe we can do that by the end of the year I would
00:54:03
be interested to hear your top 10 list until next week be good be kind don't [Music]
00:54:24
litter [Music] the Angie's List you know and trust is now Angie and we're so much more than
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