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[Music] [Applause] thank you welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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for listening I'm your host Nick and my co-host is a guy that's attending a time
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travel event two weeks ago he is the captain let me just say I'm baffled by the technology it's good to be seen and
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garage and that is enough of the beers mess all right Captain remind me to thank you later everybody gather around
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grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime thank you [Music] [Music] all right let's get back to this
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fascinating case well Captain I know that we've talked a little bit about the photos that would
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have been found later on the digital camera that was found inside the backpack and we've talked about this a
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little bit but we've not gone into great detail now I do want to throw something
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out there because most of the reports that I could find in in you know I referenced The Daily Beast
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yesterday they have really the most comprehensive report on this case there are a lot of
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very what I'm guessing are thorough and detailed accounts of of these reports online but they a lot of those are Dutch
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you know so it makes it tough for us garage people to figure out and how to read those so we're not fluent in the
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Dutch yeah so we went with the Daily Beast for um I did anyway for most of my research
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the one thing that I call in a question regarding The Daily Beast that was a little confusing to me is those reports
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as well as others that I found state that the digital time stamp on the camera on the memory it was working okay
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okay but where I call that into question is we have a situation where the early photos and this will make more sense if
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you're unclear about this case uh it'll make more sense as we get into it but the early photos
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those when we say hey what time did they get to the summit what time did they get
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to the top the the mirror door uh the guess is that it's around 1pm and that's based off of the position of the
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sun in there the location the known location of the women when we look at the later photos
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we get more we get more detailed information with these and what I mean by that is time stamps right I don't
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understand why some of the same reports reference two different things the position of the sun with the early
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photos and then later the time stamps with another so I very confusing there and I I'm not I don't mean to confuse
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anyone but I want to throw that out there because should we find ourselves in a situation where people are calling
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in a question the information I just want to be clear on how it was presented and what was found out there so I found
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statements stating that the camera's memory it was preserved and that the digital time stamp worked so according
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to that investigators could tell exactly what photo was taken and when right so this of course assuming that
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the time stamp is correct we've done so many cases where we're talking about surveillance footage and it's often hour
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right um the the camera itself was not equipped with GPS capabilities as we said yesterday it was retrieved intact
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and there were 100 plus photos on it that were still available to investigators now approximately 12
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photos these were taken on the day that the women were hiking that they hiked the penista up the way to the the to the
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crest during the day on April 1st well like we said there was some selfies and there was a couple pictures of each
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other taking pictures of their friend the last image from that day is of Chris standing on a rock looking as though
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she's about to Traverse a small stream it is sunny she does not appear to be in distress although now we know that the
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women were not heading in the direction that they should have been right in the opposite direction we don't know exactly
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what time this photo was taken but we do know that both women tried to call uh 112 after 4 pm that day so what happened
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in those roughly three hours between the crest of the divide in the emergency calls
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or in the even smaller window between the last photo of Chris and the calls but what we do know is that it gets dark
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very early here so it's going to get dark around 4 P.M well it should start getting darker in the jungle around that
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time the sunset would have been 6 40 p.m on that day so then we have seven days later this is what I was referencing
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earlier where we have the earlier photos and then we have the later photos we have
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roughly 12 pictures that are taken of the two women on the day that they're hiking on April 1st right it's not until
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seven days later that another photo is taken and Incredibly there were 90 Plus photos taken on the camera in the middle
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of the night on April 8th a week after the women went missing and most of those pictures don't make sense to either you
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or I and that's why a lot of people speculate that they're using the camera as flash
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as a way to see where they're going yeah right and and I apologize for laughing when you were were talking there Captain
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but in all honesty you know most of the photos I say I think all of them don't make sense to me right and I think
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because they don't make sense to me that I find it eerie and I find it extremely
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creepy that that they don't make any sense and like you said it could be something as simple as somebody using
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the flash of the camera to try to see in the middle of the night maybe they're making their way on a trail maybe
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they're hearing something yeah and at some point you're gonna see there's a couple pictures
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of the back of one of the girls heads and I would argue it's not a picture to show the
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the damage really that it could have been well uh I think something's wrong with my head I think I hit my head and
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and the friend saying okay well let me uh use the flash to see if I can see anything right right also you could then
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look back at the camera to to view the pictures so to see okay well let me take a
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picture of it let me see what's wrong with your head but again you can't tell is it a person taking a picture
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of the back of their is she taking a picture of the back of her head herself or is her friend taking the picture of
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the back of her head okay well let's give a good uh good representation of these photos so the the people that have
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never seen any of these can get an idea of what we're talking about here so seven days later 90 Plus photos taken on
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the camera in the middle of the night April 8th right all of these photos appear to have been taken in the pitch
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dark of night most of them only Seconds Apart using the Flash and they were taken over a two plus hour period the
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last one was taken at 3 22 a.m furthermore all the photos appear to have been taken from approximately the
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same spot you know the photographer was not moving around more than a few meters
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right so what do these pictures show when when viewed as a whole The Daily Beast says the photos seem to have some
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kind of pattern although they are all eerie and Overexposed due to the flash in the in the blackness
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all of the photos were taken in a steep jungle environment a dozen or more of these photos are of a long range they're
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like hard to make out images and we see some close-up well-lit images as well now the close-up well-lit images are as
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follows there's a single photo of a bloody Temple area okay this is other people's words not not the
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Colonel's words here a single photo of a bloody Temple area on what appears to be
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Chris's head this is based off of the hair color right now the scary thing about this photo is it's
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not known whether she was alive when this photo was taken it doesn't show us enough stuff for us to formulate a whole
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opinion and Theory off of what's seen or what's available in that photo then another photo would show a crude
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possibly a crude Direction marker made out of tiny sticks and little pieces of of orange plastic now this many have
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speculated about what this is pieces of some think it to be pieces from a plastic bag or even gum wrappers laid
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out on a large flat topped Boulder in the background of this picture behind the boulder some believe that an
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enhanced version shows that the markers might be pointing toward a in a straight line across the
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terrain to a possible monkey Bridge remember we talked about those monkey Bridges yesterday
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a boulder another one shows a boulder or other rock surface type thing uh with what appears to be paper or toilet
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tissue some have speculated that that this might be a possible attempt to spell something
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and others point out that there is a rusty mirror in the center of the letters to
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who knows what this is for could this be for to reflect the flash of the light um
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look you you talked about the possibility of using the flash to be able to see uh along a trail or maybe to
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see something in the jungle for whatever reason others have speculated that could they
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have been using one or one or two of the women using the flash to signal something signal a helicopter searching
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for them or to Signal people searching in the jungle for them yeah I mean that's very possible
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some of the shots appear to be looking downward into a Ravine and in one of them in particular looking down into
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maybe a canyon Below in this particular photo there is a blurry object on the ground and this is in the background and
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some believe some have stated that they think that that's a body the blurry object there the tricky thing here
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Captain is on the we know from weather reports that there were several heavy rains in the
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middle of the night on the 8th so given that time period we know these were taken in the middle of the night
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could the raindrops have made it difficult for the camera to pick up images at a distance
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you know things that maybe they could see with whoever's shooting these photos that they could see with their eyes that
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the camera just simply isn't picking up for some reason yeah or were they hearing things and trying to use the
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light to see what they're hearing or the light to scare something off if it's an
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animal like one of those monkeys or now so what's up with these pictures is what
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everybody is talking about the thing I want to know is why would someone go for seven days between photographs and then
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take a series of photos in the middle of the night using the flash all from the same spot well maybe they're using other
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sources to light their way such as their phones or but we have the we have the log of the information of
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their phones they're not being turned on they're being shut off mm-hmm or their watch or I'm just saying
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I I don't know I mean it's the whole thing is confusing yes yes it's it's very confusing that
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some people have wondered if if this was an attempt to hint at their location you know like
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things are super dire at this point they've been missing for a week take some photos of where we last were or
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where I last was because there might only be one of them left at this point right depending on what has happened
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is this an attempt for someone to mark their location or is it an attempt to Mark the location where Chris uh died or
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was incapacitated and I say Chris because we have that picture possible picture of the bloody Temple right I
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also wonder I'm assuming this camera has the capability of also taking video so that's where then I wonder if you're
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trying to leave answers for when somebody finds your belongings why don't you just toss on the video
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camera and say hey this is where I'm at this is what happened I mean you see that and
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what's that movie 127 Hours he does the same thing puts his camera on him and basically says goodbye
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right and why wasn't that done if that was the intent right I don't know if it was able to
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take video most most cameras nowadays are so I would assume that it was and that feature for whatever reason if it
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was available was not not used the other thing too is there we do know their phones you know you and I are more
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familiar with their phones than this particular camera we know their phones would have had the ability to film a
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video and that obviously was not done with the the phones right and again though it could be no power to the
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phones right obviously too though we see an effort to conserve the battery of the
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phone and yeah everybody knows shooting a video with your phone will drain the battery probably faster than just about
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anything else yeah but then it also makes you just wonder did they come upon somebody or were they being
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Guided by somebody and once they're dead are they messing with their stuff and messing with the camera
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or were they dead and somebody Came Upon them right and found their belongings afterwards and decide to power up the
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phone on the 11th take some pictures on the eighth right the the the strange thing to me though is we see a similar
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Behavior with both with all three of these items right we have the phones that are used for days
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from the up until the sixth and then then not used again until the 11th and then with the camera we have the camera
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being used on the first and then not used again until the eighth it just seems like a
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strange pattern of behavior whether it's done intentionally done by one of the women or both or someone else right it's
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it's done by somebody we can we can agree with that there may be a a glitch I will go with a glitch more likely on
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the phone these photos were taken by somebody right okay so there was a glitch that took uh 90 pictures well and
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I say you know and I know it sounds silly to say there was no glitch that took 90 pictures but furthermore on that
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is we have this aspect because I I had I did read somebody speculate that like okay let's say the one of the girls had
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the one of the women had the phone I'm not the phone the camera on her person and passed away expired from from any
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number of reasons all right could could an animal have come up and been messing with the body and
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accidentally bumped the phone or causing you know right but sorry I keep saying phone
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camera right but at that point you're getting into crazy speculation because what you're getting into is that uh one
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of the individuals passed away the camera was on her an animal comes up accidentally hits these photos that are
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taken at all different angles so that not only does the the animal take the pictures but it moves the camera in 90
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different ways and then magically the camera gets back into the book bag right that's I mean that's just too much
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speculation not too much speculation it's [ __ ] impossible I mean sorry to put it I can't put it
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any more politely Jesus somebody well somebody's got the dirty mouth I'm not gonna lie to you I was actually pissed
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off that I that I read someone's thoughts about that happening that way like whatever so anyway and what here's
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what we do know and this is real stuff so the investigators with the help of guides they're like they were actually
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able to pinpoint exactly where some of these mysterious photos were taken right well it at least the ones that show the
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markers on the Rock the we're calling those directional markers if in fact that's what they are I actually think uh
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law enforcement called those the emergency markers okay so and and they basically were able to find the exact
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location the exact rock where that photo was taken so this site is about three miles straight downhill from bocate the
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town where they were going to stay this is on the Western Bank of a tributary that feeds into that Big River there
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so this is about 12 hours by foot from the trail that they were on now the shorts were supposedly found in the
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river right near where these photos were taken or they you know folded up neatly
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placed beside the river there um and a few kilometers Upstream from where the backpack washed up
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or was placed right it is also about two kilometers Upstream from where the first
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of the body parts was found so nearby are several abandoned Nobi Huts that the women might have spotted and possibly
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could have even used as makeshift shelters before they met their Fates right so and from this spot
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had they been able to continue along the river following the trail Through the Jungle they would have got to the Nobi
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Village before too long so what this what what this means is if in fact one of the women was taking
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these pictures or both of them and if one or both of them made it to where their belongings made it to they
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did possibly have shelter and they weren't very far away from other people right the the big question in this whole
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deal Captain is really I think we're left with two very simple explanations as to what happened
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we either have an accident that you know that these women died and expired because of an accident or they
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met with Foul Play somehow [Music] [Music] cheers mates cheers Captain let's get into the
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possibilities here accident or Foul Play Because let's start with accident I want
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to give a shout out real quick a big cheers to all the veterans that Serve and Protect US yeah I just want to give
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it a little cheers as I'm drinking and thoughts and prayers with everybody in California hang out there
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um so if everyone analyzing the photos left on the Canon camera if they are correct
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from what I found it seems that for whatever reason they all believe that the two women decided to deviate from
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the trail that they were traveling on that day and proceeded down the other side of the Divine Right it makes you
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wander when they're looking this stuff up online because we know that they did right that did they see something where
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they go oh well we can go past for example I was in Hawaii once and there was a trail called the road to Hana and
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the whole thing was once you got to Hana that you would turn around right but there was also
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a couple miles of An Unfinished road that you could take and loop back around and I decided to take the unpaved on you
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know finished Road there you go so is there something that they saw that was like well once you get to the summit
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point you can go a little bit further to see whatever right and that maybe it wasn't that they were gonna that they
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willy-nilly got lost but they just also didn't understand that the darkness was going to be falling on them around four
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o'clock in the jungle so did they get a little bit too far for did they get a little too far out and then decide oh we
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made a mistake well I so what most people suggest is that okay we have the first one one two call attempt was
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shortly after 4 30 p.m on that day still daylight at this time but it's probably
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pretty dark in the jungle then well sunsets at 6 40 p.m on on April 1st so whatever you know take that
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information for what it is we're not in the jungle broadcasting here today no so
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many people believe that this call was likely placed because one of the women had been hurt in some kind of accident
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that's what I have seen online that's what the Reddit people seem to think that an accident occurred around this
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time and that's why the first 112 call attempt was made at 4 30 pm perhaps a fall some kind of twisted
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ankle I mean any number of injuries you could approach your ankle imagination yes yeah so the problem I have with this
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thought in theory I'm not saying it's impossible I'm not saying that it's unlikely but what I'm saying is I think
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that later evidence might prove or or at least suggest that it's more likely this
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was not the situation and what I mean by that is their belongings their remains they're found a good distance from this
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location so let's say that they traveled um walking distance three hours roughly
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by the time they make that first attempt to one one two well the walking distance they're found
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like 12 hours from where we know they were happy and alive right so that's another nine hours walking distance
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right and if you snap your ankle then you might not be making them that far yes I think what might be more likely at
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4 30 p.m is that maybe they realized they had become lost right and I think that there's a good chance that maybe
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they didn't realize that they were lost until like three hours into the hike back because
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look and like I said earlier I'm not I'm not an experienced hiker I'm not a well
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experienced hiker but I do know this I've been out plenty of times where I'm hiking I'm camping I'm out in the
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wilderness and I'm walking on Trails a lot of the stuff looks the same you know and if you didn't take really
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good mental note of things on your way up you may have simply just gone on the wrong trail thinking you were just
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returning down on the same trail that you had come up maybe he got turned around while you're up at the top there
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right you started down the wrong way I think haven't all of us been there where we're traveling down the trail and
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we go it might be a half hour 45 minutes an hour into it and you're going I'm starting to get in the feeling like I
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haven't like maybe I went the wrong way yes but what do we do most of us just continue on going because we're like ah
00:27:03
I'm probably wrong well I haven't hiked Trails like this but I've I've done a lot of hiking and like parks and stuff
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and like you said some of the trails you go somewhere and then you come back but
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most of them there's some kind of loop around even if you get to the end and it's just a circle that Loops you back
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to the path you're just on that lets you know hey oh well [ __ ] this one didn't
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loop around I have to go back the way I came but some of the trails they just loop
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back around so there's there's been times that I've been on trail that we did two or three loops and I'm like man
00:27:37
this Trail is long and they're like what are you talking about we finished the trail three times right and I'm like oh
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but that's also you know you probably shouldn't drink a lot of beers before you go
00:27:49
hiking but so now you're in this area that has way more trees and they're in the jungle man
00:27:57
right that's I mean that's the most simple way to put it yeah and I just again again is it that wrong to think
00:28:05
that maybe there was some reason that they were going to go a little further than what the initial hike is supposed
00:28:13
to be and they just got lost and this is just a it was a mistake and it's a very tragic way to die but
00:28:22
you know there's really no evidence of a crime here so far right so far and the thing is
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though too you know this is these are not hallways you know we're not talking about hallways it's not like a situation
00:28:35
where you're you're walking for an hour hour and a half two hours even and you go
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shoot I think I've gone the wrong way I'll just turn around and go back right you know we're talking about who knows
00:28:48
the number of trails that are going on this other side here and what I mean by that is how many times even if I figured
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out finally that I've gone the wrong direction [Music] how many times do I come to a fork in
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the road a fork in the path on that trail trying to return get back to the the correct
00:29:07
Trail and have to choose a direction did I go left here did I go right here you know what I mean it's it's a mind
00:29:15
game and I think what what personally may have happened here is that we have a situation I think they've called in and
00:29:22
they realize that they're lost I don't think they called in with it with an injury at 4 30 p.m on that first day I
00:29:28
agree but based on the fact that they end up 12 um 12 hours away right from from where
00:29:36
that call took place so and also there's there's so many times where experienced
00:29:42
hikers have gone missing and these girls you know by all accounts are not experienced hikers well and
00:29:49
there's no markers indicating that they are going the right way or what direction they should take right so that
00:29:55
are at a huge disadvantage no matter what in an area that they're not familiar with so let's say that the
00:30:01
women did become lost at some point and once they once they got lost it's kind of easy to understand how they could
00:30:07
have quickly have gotten into trouble the tropical cloud forest where the women uh where we believe the women were
00:30:13
this is a wild area this is venomous snakes this is insects poisonous plants there's
00:30:20
uncountable hazards out there right right and also remember that the footing in these little used Trails is very
00:30:28
Rocky and unstable and the trails can instantly become rushing waterways with these tropical storms that can come in
00:30:36
at a moment's notice right but even worse the region is mountainous and uneven with Ravines and crevices and
00:30:43
cliffs and sometimes these things are hidden in the jungle now there is a predominant Theory out there that at
00:30:51
least one of the women fell to her death so under my thought this would be some point after they became lost in the
00:30:59
jungle that one of the women fell to her death or was severely injured during this fall possibly off of a monkey
00:31:06
Bridge so interestingly one of the photos taken in the dark on April 8th this um the one with what investigators
00:31:16
believe is a makeshift directional markers made up of twigs and plastic pieces right
00:31:22
seems to show one of these Bridges remember we referenced that earlier in the background and some have wondered
00:31:28
was lisanne trying to indicate that Chris possibly fell off of a monkey bridge now okay so I probably should
00:31:38
have got into this a long time ago to to clarify what a monkey bridge is um for the most part you can kind of
00:31:46
picture uh Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and use your imagination a little bit but basically a monkey Bridge
00:31:54
is a rope or a piece of cable that is used to cross Gorges rivers or you know any number of obstacles
00:32:04
um there is one strand of rope or cable for walking on and two strands up above on either side for people to hold on to
00:32:12
while they're carefully attempting to rock walk across so all three of these ropes or cables
00:32:19
will be anchored on either side of the obstacle that you're trying to Traverse so what makes this Theory popular is
00:32:27
that the women's remains and backpack were found near the river Downstream from an actual monkey bridge
00:32:35
near which the night photos were taken and the shorts were believed to have been found the thinking is that Chris
00:32:43
Parish somehow on the Eastern side of the river where her shorts may have been found and Lee Zan attempted to go on
00:32:51
from there but mind you at this point she would have been weakened by a week or more of no food and who knows how
00:32:59
much water she's consumed during this week right so no food little to no water was she not
00:33:08
able to navigate the multiple monkey Bridges and possibly fell breaking her foot which would immobilize her you know
00:33:17
leaving her stranded in one of the Gorges along the river system the other thing too that might suggest
00:33:24
this we do know that the bones of lisanne's foot were broken inside of the boot because that's the way they were
00:33:31
found later right other things that point to an accident incapacitating at least one of the women
00:33:38
include the photo of the head injury on Chris's Temple again we don't know if she was mobile or
00:33:46
even alive when the photo was taken but these kind of situations that we've just
00:33:51
discussed they're not uncommon you know for people traveling abroad to Exotic dangerous
00:33:57
places they're not familiar with they go out into the woods they go out on an adventure and they become injured at
00:34:05
some point every day that you're out there every hour that you're out there that's why they have a certain path that
00:34:11
you go hey go up to this point and come back and that's still you know six hours
00:34:15
of you know tracking back and forth and I'm sure that people still get injured doing that but when you're out there for
00:34:22
so many days and so many hours and so many miles of walking it's more likely that these things are going to happen
00:34:28
now there are some people that would would say Nick you're wrong that that's not likely and they point to
00:34:36
this is a well-known fact that there have been other people other tourists that have gotten lost on that exact
00:34:43
Trail or the surrounding trails and then later been located by guides or Searchers using dogs right okay so that
00:34:52
this but this case has been suggested it was suggested to me a lot and then once I started
00:35:00
diving into it right away it's it's very creepy that with the phone log with the
00:35:05
photos there's a lot of stuff to take a look at and Ponder I'm I'm still wondering where
00:35:11
where there's evidence of a crime because I don't see it yet well okay so we before and I'm not saying that you
00:35:21
see it either I'm just saying that people have point to the fact that this could be a crime
00:35:26
well no you're right I mean it's often discussed in areas that informs that you would discuss True Crime right okay and
00:35:35
I think it's the fact of not knowing it's we don't know for sure what has happened uh more to the thought of an
00:35:44
accident occurred we do have survival Specialists commenting on this specific case and they've referenced cases that
00:35:51
they've studied in the past citing that people in these situations can often survive for a week or maybe even 10 days
00:35:59
but almost never survive two weeks and if one or both of them were injured then obviously that would compound things
00:36:09
significantly right there was a Wilderness expert for The Daily Beast that concluded that this was very likely
00:36:16
a tragic accident we also have the local public prosecutor who ruled that it was
00:36:22
an accident and she emphasized that there is no indication of any any trauma from cutting stabbing or violent
00:36:29
dismemberment on the bones that were found I have a big problem with that statement
00:36:35
while that statement is very true right I question the evidence because we discussed these are bone fragments right
00:36:44
how broke and some of them are broken bone fragments okay so so let's before we go
00:36:51
down any crazy roads off of the accident thing let's get into the thought of Foul
00:36:57
Play because obviously bizarre circumstances in this case of course have given rise to the speculation about
00:37:03
what could have happened to Chris and lisanne so although quite a bit of evidence
00:37:08
points to a tragic accidental death there are plenty of people who are not willing to chalk up the strange
00:37:16
circumstances of this case to the women just getting lost so conspiracy theories are they're out
00:37:23
there right so the deaths of Chris and lizanne have been blamed on cannibals cartel Hitman drug mules organ
00:37:33
traffickers serial killer straight up conventional kidnapping or rape right um you know there's no really shortage
00:37:43
of Foul Play theories out there perhaps the theories go they did not head down the other side of the trail or
00:37:52
the Divide of their own accord if they came across someone dangerous on their Trek perhaps that person or
00:37:59
persons forced Chris and lisanne to walk towards the Bocas del Toro right instead
00:38:07
of back to the town which I'd agree with other than the fact that we have we still have pictures after that point
00:38:13
right as of them having like a good time what's that well it looks like they're still having pictures of them traveling
00:38:21
and having a good time oh yeah yeah I'm sorry I was thinking about the pictures on April 8th
00:38:26
um no there is at least one picture that shows them to believe to be on the other
00:38:30
side of the divide and just as you said you know you can only view one of the women in the picture but she doesn't
00:38:36
seem to be stressed she doesn't seem to be you know she's not being held hostage because
00:38:43
she's the only one in the picture it's weird that we don't have more eyewitnesses that saw him on the trail
00:38:49
because I'd really like to know were they being Guided by somebody because somebody that's guiding them further
00:38:56
than they're supposed to go and oh no no we'll just keep going past here well this is a shortcut this is the
00:39:02
right way right or yeah I'll show you a shortcut or just a little bit further this way there's something really cool
00:39:10
you need to see and that's when I'm going to you know attack you I'm not going to tell you that while we're going
00:39:16
down the trail and so of course they get past that point they're still taking pictures but
00:39:22
they did take quite a few pictures you'd think that maybe there would be some evidence that there'd be somebody else
00:39:27
with them well okay so the thought on that is that exact Theory might explain why
00:39:36
there were no marks on trees arrows scratched on rocks or Trails of fabric or any kind of other Clues left behind
00:39:44
by the women you know sometimes you see these kind of things done by people that are lost
00:39:49
right and we don't see that here well you possibly see that in the little what they're calling the emergency
00:39:57
markings but but that would be seven days later right correct my thought here is let's say they are alone
00:40:05
or you know you bring up the interesting thought if they're being led away there
00:40:09
and they think they're going in the right direction they're being told they're going in the right direction
00:40:12
they wouldn't leave any markers you know so that would explain that or do you have a situation where they're lost and
00:40:18
they don't realize that they're lost and they're moving further and further from
00:40:23
their point the other thing that might Point towards possible Foul Play is that we have we do
00:40:30
know that calls were attempted you know for a few days after April 1st they stopped on the eventually but we do know
00:40:37
at least someone is using the phone they're you know and eventually they're not using the pen anymore you know was
00:40:45
this someone that didn't know the the women and didn't know the pin right another factor that gives rise to
00:40:52
theories of Foul Play are the very you know the very little that was found of the women's remains right and the state
00:40:59
of those remains for one thing where are the larger body parts yeah crudely sorry shock a lot of that up to
00:41:09
the elements plus the animals I would agree with that but I did find some people familiar with the area that
00:41:19
point out that when cows are killed by poisonous snakes in this area or drown in floods in the area that the entire
00:41:27
carcasses are are often found or actually every according to these people are always found in found intact and
00:41:36
then we do have a situation where the body of a little girl who drowned in the river was found also intact this was
00:41:44
after a week we should point out that Chris and lizanne were gone for months before you know their remains were found
00:41:52
but their remains are found in little bits and pieces right now experts in various sources have indicated that
00:42:01
decomposition would be very slow in the cloud forest environment because it's Shady damp and cool and deterioration is
00:42:09
delayed so if this in fact is true that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because so little is found of
00:42:19
these poor women yeah and I I definitely think that piece of evidence makes me question
00:42:26
this right you know was it an accident or was this Foul Play the other thing is the book bag that just the condition was
00:42:33
found in what was found in it it just uh that really gets me now I don't want to
00:42:41
discredit the power of insects and you will never hear another show ever say that exact sentence I don't want to
00:42:49
discredit the power of insects man because I'm telling you you if you watched Nat Geo Channel enough they'll
00:42:56
show those little like um you know it's like the images that they speed up with the a camera that's recording a whole
00:43:04
group of ants or insects that will get on something and then over the course of a day or week devour it to the point
00:43:12
where it will fall apart right um so I'm not I'm not saying that just because of what these experts say that
00:43:19
the deterioration would have been slow I think what they're they're speaking in generalities there
00:43:25
who knows what space you know the exact space that these bodies were left in be it from an accident or from an attack
00:43:33
right now what we do know is the area that it's believed that uh they were last alive
00:43:40
given the photographs in these areas there's no like large cats or crocodiles or big predators in in this particular
00:43:49
area and that might be why the the people from the tribe at one time were living
00:43:56
in this spot yeah and I also I still like I can't go over like I said the the way the book bags found but also the
00:44:05
shorts it's very interesting if they were truly folded yes all right so let's go into the book bag first then we'll
00:44:13
get to the shorts because I was thinking the same thing and a lot of people point
00:44:18
out that that okay because there's flash flooding in this area very regularly so if I expire and I'm
00:44:26
anywhere near the river if I die from an accident or just you know coming to the
00:44:31
elements at some point there could be a flash flood that would then wash me into
00:44:36
the river and wash me down the river right right this could account for my body being tore up in the process
00:44:46
over the course of months or however long depending on what's going on with the added you know we have animals we
00:44:52
have now we have the river we have all kinds of things going on however like you said the backpack is found very near
00:44:57
the river so if that backpack is with me up until the point of I pass away we gotta believe that the backpack in me
00:45:06
took a similar trip down the river the backpack it's a cheap you know it's a cheap backpack that would have likely
00:45:15
Fallen apart in a Rushing River and if you're going to say that that's what happened to my body but it didn't
00:45:21
happen to the backpack I have a bit of an issue with that I find it extremely strange that not only is the backpack
00:45:27
found in good condition it's found in very likely very good condition and now we have little pieces and parts
00:45:34
of of bodies here now you're touching on something interesting too is the shorts well we
00:45:41
have a discrepancy on how the shorts were actually found if they were found in the river
00:45:48
okay that that points to I to me I guess more likely an accident right if they're folded up and placed neatly
00:45:57
somewhere near the river okay what does that leave us with Captain two options here we got the
00:46:04
option of some killer took these shorts and folded them up and placed them neatly near the
00:46:10
river or the person wearing the shorts one of the women took them off folded them up and placed them near the river
00:46:16
but right I I don't see a woman stranded in the jungle taking off her shorts and going
00:46:24
pantless you know going without her shorts in the jungle trying to stay alive I mean I guess unless it was
00:46:31
something to wash up in the river I I don't know I can't make it's much like the pictures and much like the activity
00:46:39
on the cell phones it's hard to make sense out of really any of this well that's what's so frustrating I mean the
00:46:48
things that make this case so interesting are these photos the things that make you know uh the call log these
00:46:55
items that makes the case so interesting and then on the flip side of things I felt bad because the family having these
00:47:02
call logs to look over and these photos to look over it's like this it feels like it's a
00:47:09
puzzle that you can put together and make sense of it but I don't know if you can
00:47:14
right now one thing we've not talked about is photo 509 yeah 509. one thing I want to get into something
00:47:25
before we get to that real quick is is a thought that we have this is something you see a lot when people are stranded
00:47:34
and they know they've lost all hope that they're not going to be found they're not going to be rescued they're not
00:47:40
going to be saved they often will leave some kind of note message uh recording something for their loved ones for their
00:47:50
wives their children their mother their father their husbands boyfriend whomever
00:47:55
somebody that means a lot to them they want to tell them something because you have the time to do it and you know
00:48:02
you're that the end is near we have two women with with cell phones with a camera with a backpack there's no
00:48:13
we found no evidence that they've left anything for any of those loved ones they didn't record any videos like you
00:48:19
had said right which also makes it lean towards Foul Play and other than the bloody the possible picture of the
00:48:26
bloody Temple or the blurry object that might be a body in the background in one
00:48:30
of the pictures the 90 the 90 pictures that are taken in the middle of the night
00:48:36
they're not of of the girls they're not of the women they're just random stuff there's not even there's not a selfie to
00:48:44
show that I'm injured there's not a picture of my friend who's injured or has passed away that's obvious but what
00:48:53
there is is a missing photo there's the missing photo of 509. and the weird thing about that is okay
00:49:02
so we have on April 1st the day of the hike the last photo taken that's on the camera during that afternoon it's number
00:49:14
508 right then there is a seven day Hiatus in the photo taking and the Canon resumes taking pictures uh
00:49:22
with the night shots that we discussed the first of which is numbered 510. right so where is 509 now as The Daily
00:49:32
Beast put it it's it's the one picture that would fall between the existing daytime and
00:49:39
nighttime photos and thus could give us a clue as to why Chris and lizanne kept hiking and what or who they may have
00:49:48
encountered out there it is not thought likely that the women would have deleted this crucial picture
00:49:55
themselves while out on the trail none of the other night pictures were deleted although some of them appear to show
00:50:03
nothing investigators were unable to retrieve the image from the camera camera's
00:50:09
memory card leading some to believe that it had been deleted on a computer right
00:50:15
so this is where it's very interesting is they believe they can tell you know you
00:50:23
take a picture with your camera well you didn't like it so you just delete it real quick move on to the next one that
00:50:29
would make sense on why we don't have a 509 but when authorities are saying well
00:50:34
we think it's more likely that the camera is actually connected to a computer to delete that picture
00:50:41
wow right I mean that's Game Changer I mean if if they have the technology to prove that
00:50:50
then to me there's no question that this was Foul Play right and you're not going
00:50:56
to just randomly come across a computer out in the middle of the jungle so that means the camera was in someone
00:51:02
else's possession if in fact that 509 photo was deleted from a computer and why would someone go to all that
00:51:12
effort to delete the photo and then return the camera with memory card to the backpack in the general walking
00:51:21
area of where it's believed the women were last alive very very strange stuff you have to wonder
00:51:31
we referenced a possible glitch in the phones earlier could it have been some kind of glitch
00:51:38
right or could there be some damage that we don't know about water or whatever that is that
00:51:46
even though the picture was deleted by the camera that it made um the data that they're reading look a
00:51:55
different way I'm throwing out I have no clue about that technology but what it comes down to is I think if you can
00:52:03
figure out how 509 was deleted then you will get to the answer of whether it was an accident or a murder
00:52:13
well and what the hell could be on that photo too could be the person that is responsible for them never being
00:52:20
found or a bloodied victim I mean any number of things really popped to mind because you're talking about the photos
00:52:26
that we see on the on April 1st appear to be of two young strong vibrant women out on a hike having a good time out in
00:52:37
the sunshine of a of a of a trip that they wanted to go on right that's what we see that's all that indicates to me
00:52:44
is going on and then boom seven days later we got pictures random pictures in the
00:52:51
dark that make no damn sense at all but that's why it makes sense to me though if they went off Trail for whatever
00:52:58
reason and then they stumbled upon they're looking for help they're called for help
00:53:03
they know that they're lost and here comes somebody that goes hey what are you girls doing can I help you
00:53:10
and maybe it's just like after a little bit of traveling it's like they take a picture with this individual
00:53:17
ah you know what I mean and then something terrible goes down after that picture
00:53:23
and that individual is still around to delete it right and like I said you find out why
00:53:31
that was deleted you figure out the answer of whether or not this was an accident
00:53:37
or a murder it does seem like a lot of effort to go to if you're that person but not necessarily so much
00:53:45
so that you know look if if I did something like that of course and I know that my
00:53:52
picture was taken by these women I'm going to get that photo off of there but what I mean is the effort to return it
00:53:58
to this right but here's the here's what I want to know and and somebody could answer this probably in the blog
00:54:06
truecrime garage.com here's what I want to know is you know I have a nice camera like this
00:54:14
I don't know if I delete the picture after I take the picture if I delete it from my camera am I able to retrieve
00:54:23
that because what we do know is law enforcement can't even retrieve 509 so what if this person had knowledge that
00:54:31
said well if I delete it from the camera there's still a way for them to retrieve
00:54:35
this but if I delete it from a computer there's zero way for them to treat uh retrieve this picture
00:54:43
I don't know the answers if somebody has that answer please go to the blog and let us know
00:54:49
wow you're right I mean you okay that's crowdsourcing right there because there will be somebody out there listening to
00:54:57
somebody right now is saying you guys are idiots this is how it works and uh someone just somebody else yeah
00:55:04
somebody else is screaming stop doing this in person K says it's not true crime even though missing person cases
00:55:10
are handled by law enforcement so it is true crime but I but I do get it sometimes well the prosecutor had to
00:55:17
give their opinion as to what took place in this this particular incident so here's the thing you're right
00:55:25
crowdsource someone out there knows this camera very well and I guess what you're
00:55:30
saying like to me the layperson what I'm thinking is something as simple as my phone okay my
00:55:35
phone I take a picture I delete the ones I don't like but there is an extra folder on my phone that says delete this
00:55:43
forever you know like we'll hold this for 30 days 60 days or whatever for for Nick to determine if he actually doesn't
00:55:50
like this photo or not right so yeah that's interesting to find out now I did find a Blog one
00:55:58
one blog that I found that said that the missing photo is being held back at the request
00:56:04
of the family hmm the this who knows exactly that's right if that's this rumor or not right and
00:56:14
who knows who's posting that really so uh personally I don't know that I can see this being true simply for the fact
00:56:21
that we have we have other statements by authorities saying we can't retrieve that photo
00:56:28
why even bother to say you know well mate again maybe they're just lying to protect
00:56:34
one of these females which if they're lying for that I mean at least that's a good reason to lie now I do want to
00:56:42
throw this out there before we get into our thoughts about what could have happened to these two teristas but
00:56:48
it you know most all of the um experts that have looked into this case and I mean local experts and even Dutch
00:57:00
experts that were flown to the area that have reviewed this case they all state that they believe the cause of
00:57:08
death they can't do while they cannot determine the cause of death they all have pretty much come to the conclusion
00:57:15
that this was an accident that this is an accidental death uh that the the women became lost or injured and at some
00:57:23
point both succumbed to the elements what do you think happened here Captain well I'm not even
00:57:31
going to speculate all I'm going to say is if you tell me that that 509 for photo 509 was deleted from a computer
00:57:41
you don't have to tell me anything else because I can't there's no logic in my brain that could explain that
00:57:49
so um well that would have to mean that they either left the jungle or the camera
00:57:55
left the jungle right and if the camera left the jungle and they did not then I'm then some something
00:58:02
right so that to me that's your answer and that's all you need to know and it and if law enforcement knows for a fact
00:58:11
that that camera left and went to a computer to have a picture deleted and they still want to come up with this
00:58:18
[ __ ] that it's an accident well well they just they wouldn't though that's just nonsense but
00:58:25
if it's just speculation that it was deleted from a computer but they pretty for sure that it was just deleted could
00:58:33
have been deleted by accident from the um from the camera and if they knew that then definitely
00:58:41
it's an accident see I don't think they know that you know obviously like you said because it had they known that it
00:58:47
was deleted from a computer then then something terrible in their right mind could make statements that they're
00:58:53
making something terrible happened what what I think we have here is I think we have a situation where there's a missing
00:58:58
photo and reporters are saying well why would that be why why can't you retrieve
00:59:04
the photo the photo should tell us what happened to these women unfortunately look we have over 100 photos that don't
00:59:12
tell us what happened to these women right so maybe that one extra photo doesn't help us any more than the other
00:59:17
crap photos that we've seen right and what I mean by that is I I feel like they're they're pressuring and and
00:59:24
pushing law enforcement or the investigators who you know I I think we should be clear in the reports it often
00:59:31
says investigators I don't know that that 100 means all the time it's actual law enforcement right okay so the
00:59:38
investigators are pushed and they're saying well how could that be man that you have this camera you can retrieve
00:59:45
all these other photos but you can't retrieve this one well that could be any number of reasons like this that the
00:59:53
other thing removed by a computer blah blah blah blah blah blah you know so it could be nine or ten different reasons
00:59:59
why that that was uh deleted and they can't retrieve it the other thing here though too is I wouldn't fully say that
01:00:09
if somebody could prove to me that the photo was deleted by the camera by someone using and operating the camera I
01:00:17
wouldn't I wouldn't immediately say well then they weren't killed they weren't murdered right because why the hell
01:00:24
would that photo be deleted and all the one other you know 100 other photos that
01:00:28
right but you can logically explain that as far as like oh it was an accident or
01:00:33
they took right somebody took a selfie that they didn't like so they deleted it right no no so I mean there's there's
01:00:39
all these logical reasons but there is no logical reason for this to leave the jungle be deleted and then come back to
01:00:48
the Jungle there's no logical explanation other than um somebody didn't want that picture on
01:00:55
there bad well and I think for this this is a problem uh that you and The Listener suggested this case
01:01:03
it's a it's a big problem because this the information in this case in this case itself it does keep me up at
01:01:11
night there's so many possibilities there's so many unanswered questions yeah try having like uh they got like
01:01:19
four Bourbon and cokes and I was watching a nice funny movie I was watching the Adam Sandler thing
01:01:25
um and and then all of a sudden I was like well let me take a look at these photos again and then four hours later
01:01:32
I'm like I don't know what I'm looking at I'm a big fan of this is one of my guilty pleasures
01:01:38
I'm a big fan of the show naked and afraid when they take a couple people and they dump them out in the middle of
01:01:45
nowhere with no clothes and basically you get to bring like one item with you right and that's it and that's all and
01:01:51
you some of these people crap out after I saw one person crap out after eight hours like I'm done tapping out mine
01:01:58
would be like eight minutes I've seen some I've seen some people make it like 21 days and it's you know watching that
01:02:06
show often I thought well looking into this case I might be able to see some indicators of survival techniques that
01:02:12
they used the interesting thing here is that they if in fact they were alive and this was
01:02:18
an accident or they got lost or both they were these two women were smart enough to power off these phones and not
01:02:25
use them unnecessarily you know only when needed they were using these phones in an attempt to get a rescue effort out
01:02:32
there right what troubles me is the inactiveness of both the phones and the camera yes for
01:02:41
so much time and here's the thing it doesn't necessarily mean that they were murdered
01:02:48
what I think might be the situation and that I think has caused a lot of confusion in this case
01:02:56
I think that it's very likely that someone or someone's may have found their remains and found their belongings
01:03:04
before they were located by people actually searching for them right and it could be as simple as somebody out in
01:03:12
the jungle comes across a phone two phones a camera and decides to check them out and play with them and see what
01:03:19
they can do with them and then later that person person gets a conscious or hands it over to this nobe tribe woman
01:03:27
and she says look I've seen because there were missing photos remember we we mentioned there was a missing poster for
01:03:35
both of these girls so people in the area did have a general idea that somebody was missing that two women were
01:03:41
missing and this woman may have said look I got to take this stuff to to law enforcement and let them know this is
01:03:47
what I found right well and and but 30 30 sets of fingerprints unidentified fingerprints are on the contents of that
01:03:57
bag right but figure out what happened in the photo 509 you'll figure out what happened
01:04:08
and before we wrap up this week here Captain we got a little recommended reading
01:04:13
the book we Are recommending this week is called my son the killer the untold story of Luca magnata and One Lunatic
01:04:19
and one ice pick by Brian Whitney co-authored with Anna yorken this is Luca's mother Luca does not do
01:04:27
interviews but true crime author and friend of our show Brian Whitney was able to get Luca to talk for this book
01:04:35
and we interviewed Brian Whitney on our other show off the Record which if you want to check that out you can get that
01:04:42
on Stitcher premium we did that this week so to find full Archives of our old shows of all of the True Crime garage
01:04:50
episodes you can get that on the Stitcher app and if you want to check out the awesome show off the Record
01:04:56
that's only available on Stitcher premium and you can get a free month of listening by going to Stitcher
01:05:02
premium.com True Crime garage and use promo code garage we hope everybody has a good week be good be kind and don't
01:05:11
wither thank you [Music]