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brand [Music] [Music] [Applause] never [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
00:01:49
you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always a man that will not be
00:01:55
watching the World Series due to a make them up show about zombies he is is the captain thank you thank you thank you
00:02:02
it's good to be seen and it's good to see you rest in peace my friend Glenn you do know he's not real well it seemed
00:02:10
real to me [Music] okay tonight tonight we are drinking de Mo IPA by Confluence Brewing Company in
00:02:21
De Mo Iowa garage grade 3 and 3/4 out of five bottle caps de Mo IPA is brought To
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Us by some of our favorite garage friends a big shout out to Ava in Orange Virginia also we have Carmen in Fall
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Brook California next we have Fanny all the way in Sweden back to the States we have Kayla in Phoenix Arizona not to
00:02:42
forget Tara in San Fran California and last but not least we have nurse Ashley in West Williamstown New Jersey well way
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to knock that one out of the park we like your gym and a big shout out to Tim and Dave two guys that did not agree
00:02:58
with me on the last episode but they posted post some really fascinating and some interesting stuff onto our blog so
00:03:03
if you want to go do that want to post anything on the blog go to True Crim garage.com Tim and Dave secretly hate
00:03:11
you I don't I don't think it's secret anymore but you know they they put some interesting uh information on the cases
00:03:19
on the blog so check that out you know what Tim and Dave go to True Crim garage.com go to the store Page and get
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your new True Crime garage t-shirt so you can walk around and make fun of the captain wearing your true crime garage
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t-shirt and if you want to follow us on social media Instagram Facebook Twitter all that stuff it's @
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00:03:43
the best way to get a case suggestion heard is to go to iTunes we need people to leave us fstar reviews leave us a
00:03:50
good review and put your case suggestion there and we'll be happy to check it out
00:03:54
and this case this week is a listener suggestion this was suggested by multiple people so thank you for that
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like your G all right Captain that's enough of the business everybody gather around grab a chair cuz the garage door
00:04:07
is closing get your beer let's talk some true [Music] crime this is true crime garage and this
00:04:27
is the case of Johnny [Music] gosh um in 1982 my son was uh delivering his Sunday morning
00:04:56
newspapers and a man approached him asking directions there were witnesses that saw the man heard the man saw the
00:05:08
car the license plate number all of it and Johnny was afraid he told the other kids there's something wrong with
00:05:19
this guy wrong with this guy and so he left the area and started walking towards where he would be doing
00:05:29
his route at that point a second man came out from between a big clump of trees and two
00:05:40
houses followed my son down the street followed my son down the street and around the
00:05:56
corner at which time that car had had left the area went around the whole block came back up right where Johnny
00:06:04
turned well the second man following him stayed back away so Johnny probably didn't even know he was being
00:06:12
followed probably didn't even know he was being [Music] [Applause] followed and then shortly
00:06:27
thereafter somebody jumped out of the Back Seat Johnny was shot with something we don't know if it was a type of stun
00:06:35
gun a taser we don't know what it was but he was shot with something and dropped to the ground and the reason we
00:06:42
know this is there was a young man in his bedroom that was right there on the street that corner he heard some noise
00:06:49
outside and he looked out he saw all this happen and then somebody from the back seat that had jumped out grabbed
00:06:57
Johnny's feet the man that had been foll following on foot grabbed him under his
00:07:01
arms they threw him in the back seat of the car then they ran the stop sign heading left towards the interstate but
00:07:08
they went only a few blocks where they pulled in and there was a van waiting with a motor running and they
00:07:15
transferred Johnny's body to the van and then all the cars left the [Music] city
00:07:31
tonight in the garage we are talking about the child abduction of young Johnny gsh way back from 1982 this is
00:07:37
one of the most famous child abduction cases of all time this took place in Iowa you know it's right up there with
00:07:44
uh some other very famous ones Elizabeth Smart Beverly Potts Steven stainer Adam
00:07:50
Walsh you know ones that we hear about from time to time in the news that keep get cycling back to us yeah I've never
00:07:56
actually heard of this case until um a friend of mine and several listeners were suggesting through Netflix there
00:08:03
was a documentary called uh who took Johnny and uh with the um you know around the same time the Amanda Knox
00:08:11
documentary was kind of blowing up and everybody was checking that out so I kind of went for that one first and then
00:08:17
stumbled upon this uh who took Johnny Johnny gsh was born November 12 1969 his parents' names were John Senior and
00:08:25
noren gosh this was noren's second marriage her her first marriage she was married when she was pretty young she
00:08:32
had two kids with her first husband and a girl and a boy and unfortunately norine's husband was diagnosed with an
00:08:39
uncurable cancer and he passed away a few years later noren meets John gosh and they get married and after a couple
00:08:46
of years they have a baby boy and this is little Johnny gosh Johnny grew up in a very nice neighborhood in West De
00:08:54
Moine Iowa this was normal good people living normal good lives in Middle America America it's a a tale almost as
00:09:01
old as time right Johnny was a working man he had a paper route in his neighborhood delivering the newspaper
00:09:07
Johnny was a paper boy for the De Moine register and Tribune he had his route for about a year or so and in this time
00:09:15
he was able to enjoy some of the fruits of his labor as he saved up his money and purchased a dirt bike this
00:09:22
originally was the whole reason for starting up the newspaper route uh and he got his dirt bike and well there's
00:09:29
not too many jobs that you can get before you know 16 to you know 16 to 18 so this is definitely something that
00:09:38
especially back in the 80s and '90s even they had paper boys uh a job that I did
00:09:44
myself it was a great way to uh get some cash you know so you can buy some things
00:09:50
and the only problem with it is that most of the paper routes you had to do every day mhm yeah Monday through Sunday
00:09:58
and Sunday being the big day you know that's when you know I had a paper route as well and it seemed like you know
00:10:04
Monday and Tuesday you could burn through your paper route real quick you could do it in about 10 15 minutes if
00:10:09
you were on bike uh but the route I had it seemed like every single door uh received the Sunday paper uh where not
00:10:17
as many people received it during the week and I know that uh we have some younger listeners going no well nobody
00:10:23
buys a newspaper well back then uh most people did and most people had it delivered to their house
00:10:29
especially on the weekend yeah and you you probably were doing your paper route in the '90s like me and this is you know
00:10:35
a decade before that Johnny's doing the paper route so there's probably even a bigger load as far as the Sunday papers
00:10:42
go and somehow Johnny was able to save up enough money from his paper route for a dirt bike it would have taken I don't
00:10:49
know what kind of paper route he had but my paper route I would have had to done
00:10:53
it for 30 years to purchase a dirt bike yeah but he had his for about a year he had a purchased the dirt bike and this
00:11:00
is something that he enjoyed riding and he would go riding with his older half brother they' go out in the fields and
00:11:05
go riding um but this leads us up to our story here because on September 5th 1982
00:11:13
this is a Sunday at 5:30 a.m. Joe goshh That's the older half brother that we spoke about was leaving his home he was
00:11:22
heading to his job at the village in this was located in West de Mo mhm before leaving Joe knocked on Johnny's
00:11:29
bedroom door and asked if he was getting up to start his route Johnny replied yes
00:11:35
Joe knowing his little brother was up he decided it was time for him to leave his
00:11:39
house he left on his motorcycle and he went off to work Johnny left the house to deliver papers with his dog Gretchen
00:11:48
this is like a little Deshawn weener dog type type of dog you know those little great dogs not really great for scaring
00:11:56
anybody off but uh great company you know to walk with you on your paper route and since it was Sunday route um
00:12:04
now what Norine claims is that the husband helped Johnny out every day for the 13 months that he had a paper route
00:12:13
now what I'm wondering is one did he only help them help him out on the Sundays so would it be that he helped
00:12:19
them out every Sunday uh you know because my parents would help me out sometimes on Sundays most of the time
00:12:25
during the week since it is a lighter load you would do it by yourself yeah you're exactly right on the Sundays you
00:12:31
would have to make different preparations for your Sundays because like we said everybody seems to get the
00:12:37
paper on Sundays and the paper is about four times the size of of a weekday paper so you have quite a combersome
00:12:45
load to to figure out now uh I I'm a little confused by that too Captain because I've seen a few interviews with
00:12:53
noren where she says that you know every day John Senior went with John help theer but then I've seen other
00:13:01
interviews where he she says you know on the weekends would go with with Johnny um well the way it worked in in my
00:13:09
household was that they would help maybe on the weekend cuz even Saturdays were a
00:13:13
little bit more um but back then it was probably just the same route Monday through Saturday and then on Sunday
00:13:20
bigger when with people just getting the Sunday paper but to break down how this
00:13:25
works you know you have to wake up early this truck comes and delivers your papers into a bundle then you're going
00:13:33
to have to take the papers out of this bundle either either put a rubber band around them or put them in a bag and so
00:13:39
uh when we start talking about The Story You're going to hear about how he had to
00:13:43
go collect the bundle and that's kind of how he starts his route look maybe he maybe Johnny was just thinking you know
00:13:51
my dad's helping me out I'm you know 13 years old now I can I can do this route by myself and just just decided not to
00:13:59
wake him or maybe he called to him and he just didn't wake up and thought nah I'll just do it myself well the
00:14:04
confusing thing here too is back then um some newspapers delivered in the evening
00:14:10
um you know it's very typical to have an evening newspaper back in the early 80s
00:14:16
so I don't know if during the week if it was an evening only paper and then on the weekend there was a Morning Edition
00:14:23
uh it sounds to me like there was you know obviously a Morning Edition on this Sunday so maybe John Senior only woke
00:14:28
woke up to help with the early morning uh papers you know because in the evening time you'd be delivering when
00:14:34
it's still light out but I think you're right Captain I think it's a situation where uh Little Johnny decided that you
00:14:41
know I'm I'm I'm a man now I've got a dirt bikee you know I got I've had this job for over a year I don't need my dad
00:14:47
to come and help me with my paper out I know what I'm doing I got my little dog Gretch in and and on Sundays at least he
00:14:53
took a a red wagon with him this is probably to carry all the help carry all the newspapers behind it him um and so
00:15:00
he he gets his dog he's got his Red Wagon that he would take with him and uh he use the wagon as we said to load up
00:15:08
the papers and pull them beside him and Gretchen would go with him house to house and they would do the paper route
00:15:14
well for whatever reason he did not wake up his father this morning this day Johnny went out alone so Johnny left the
00:15:21
house around 5:45 a.m. and we know this because his neighbor reported having heard Johnny pulling the wagon through
00:15:29
his yard this was a typical shortcut that Johnny would take regularly he knew instead of you know instead of walking
00:15:36
all the way up to the corner you know going on the sidewalk and then just to make a left you could just cut
00:15:42
diagonally through this guy's yard and and shorten your trip a little bit and this was a man named Lawrence hedin who
00:15:49
lived at 101 45th Street he reported to police that he heard Johnny cutting through the yard around 550 a a.
00:15:59
mhm this shortcut would get Johnny to Ashworth Road where he would then go to the corner of Ashworth in 42nd Street
00:16:08
this is where he would collect his papers so apparently the big truck as you said would come by and drop several
00:16:15
large stacks of newspapers and then the carriers uh would all kind of meet at this corner you know whether it be by
00:16:23
plan or or by similar time because you know the the guy the truck usually drops the papers about the same time every day
00:16:30
and you would meet there and you would do just what the captain described you would you would bag them up or you would
00:16:35
put them in a you know wrap them with a rubber band and then you would start your route and some people do this as
00:16:41
they go so you can just toss it into your wagon and as you go you roll them but the nice thing is that they're
00:16:47
dropping off all the packages of the papers uh and and one group so then you're going to have paper boys that see
00:16:55
each other and they they can be a account for each other as well and that brings us to our first eyewitness we
00:17:02
have Mike this is another paper boy he can see Johnny walking and pulling his wagon Johnny is traveling East on
00:17:09
Ashworth walking toward Mike Mike is at the corner of Ashworth in 42nd Street remember this is where the truck drops
00:17:16
the newspapers for the carriers to collect Mike sees a car traveling west on Ashworth opposite direction as Johnny
00:17:25
uh the car stops and backs up to where John Johny is and Mike observes Johnny talking to the driver after they are
00:17:33
done talking Johnny continues East and then the car makes a uturn and turns around on Ashworth now heading East
00:17:41
toward the paper drop location the car stops where the boys are collecting their newspapers and the driver he he's
00:17:49
asking for directions there is an adult near the corner yeah but this is what's weird
00:17:55
anyways cuz you you just stopped and asked Johnny so so what did Johnny say we don't know but we're assuming we can
00:18:02
assume that Johnny didn't give him directions or didn't know the answer to this question therefore that's the why
00:18:08
the guy is doing a U-turn and now he's now in a group of uh boys Collective mhm and there is an adult there his name is
00:18:16
John Rossi uh Johnny asked Mr Rossy to help the man and then the man gets in his car and he takes off it's at this
00:18:25
time that eyewitnesses are going to get their vehicle description and they describe the car as a two-tone blue
00:18:32
twodo Ford Fairmont Johnny is now walking down 42nd Street this is when Mike sees a man it's been reported that
00:18:42
he said a tall man or a large man step out from between some houses and start walking in the same direction as Johnny
00:18:50
but this man's walking you know a ways behind Johnny almost like he's following him yeah like he's the trailer mhm So
00:18:58
This Tall or large man he's actually on the opposite side of the street as Johnny but he's going to cross over the
00:19:04
street and end up on the same side and now following Johnny uh Johnny then passes two other carriers they are on
00:19:13
the opposite side of the street traveling in the other direction the boys exchange hello hell but these two
00:19:19
boys for whatever reason they do not seem to notice the tall or large man on foot following
00:19:26
Johnny Johnny turns down Mart Street uh this is where PJ Smith is in bed uh his house is across the street on markart
00:19:36
from where he believe where everyone believes that Johnny would have last been standing or walking last M PJ Smith
00:19:44
he hears the sound of a car door closing or slamming uh this causes him to you know to lay up in bed and and and he
00:19:53
sees uh what he describes as a silver and black Ford Fairmont vehicle and this is probably right around uh Sunrise I
00:20:01
believe so now this car races off uh ignoring a stop sign and it turns left and Mr Smith can see the unattended
00:20:11
wagon Johnny gosh's wagon sitting by the sidewalk not too long after after that two carriers walk by and they see the
00:20:20
wagon as well but they do not see Johnny gosh anywhere right and then the wagon there's still his dog Gretchen correct
00:20:27
yeah yeah so uh now that is an account there are several different accounts of of what occurred that morning that led
00:20:36
up to The Disappearance of Johnny uh we have multiple eyewitnesses one an adult a few uh of these young boys that are
00:20:44
that are out doing their newspaper routes um and they've told these stories to the police and that's collectively
00:20:51
The best scenario the best uh eyewitness accounts that we could piece together that would sound or form more like a
00:20:59
police report now I do think in all fairness that we should also report noren gosh's version of this same story
00:21:08
now I do want to point out that there are some a lot of similarities but there are also some slight differences um now
00:21:15
one thing that we've been privy to and you can find this on the internet um there are many many interviews out there
00:21:22
with norin gosh and she is happy to tell Johnny's story over and over again that's why we get these different
00:21:30
versions of what took place that morning yeah well the question then becomes is it is it a new version because a lot of
00:21:37
the versions that she is giving she's given versions based off of eyewitness testimony right or or people coming
00:21:45
towards her and saying hey this is what I saw that day and so yeah okay her story in 1982 is going to be different
00:21:53
in 1985 her story in 1987 is going to be different if more more people keep remembering stuff and then obviously
00:22:01
just the way she ends up telling it sometimes youd leave something out you know uh if you're doing so many
00:22:07
interviews I mean the one thing you can say is that this altered this lady's life and she really worked really hard
00:22:13
to try to get Justice or some closure or or anything for her son so that's she she did her job as far as doing a ton of
00:22:23
interviews the problem with that though is there becomes these gray areas I guess that would be the best way to say
00:22:29
it yeah you're very right Johnny's mother noren would be Johnny's loudest and in an unwavering voice uh she would
00:22:37
be willing to keep his case alive forever and for at least as long as she's on this planet right uh noren has
00:22:44
a very similar yet a little bit different version of the abduction and I've tried to piece it together best as
00:22:50
I could given her interviews over the years all right so let's get to that right after this quick beer break this
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00:24:55
cheers yeah so we are going to go through noren's version and as the captain had said that she has given many
00:25:02
interviews throughout the year so this might not be altering versions it may just be updated versions uh but noren's
00:25:09
version is pretty much the same leading up to the point of Where the boys gathered at the papers and I'll recap
00:25:16
that real quick this is Johnny wakes up and he leaves the house without his father takes his little dog in his wagon
00:25:22
he makes the shortcut through the neighbor's yard and we know this from his older half brother mhm and when he
00:25:28
when he's making his way to the point where he's going to collect his newspapers a car stops a vehicle stops
00:25:34
and the driver is seen talking to Johnny now Johnny continues on after talking to
00:25:40
the driver meets up with the other carry carriers and he's collecting his papers
00:25:45
and this is where the story gets a little different in noren's version the the man then pulls up to the corner
00:25:52
where the boys are collecting their newspapers and the man shuts off the car's engine
00:25:58
he opens up the passenger door and he gets out and with slurred speech he is asking about he doesn't actually get out
00:26:06
he just puts his feet down on the pavement so he's not fully standing up he's just kind of got the legs out of
00:26:11
the vehicle right and with slurred speech he is asking about directions to 86th Street uh this is when Johnny turns
00:26:21
to Mike and says I've got my papers loaded in the wagon I'm scared I'm getting out of here I'm going home yeah
00:26:29
there's something creepy he had this uh you know feeling inside I think about this guy that there was some evil doing
00:26:36
going on now before I get some hate mail saying no noren said that uh Johnny said
00:26:41
this uh if you go back and you watch multiple interviews what she says that Johnny says changes a little bit every
00:26:48
time the reason why I believe that that's the situation here Captain she's hearing this secondhand from people that
00:26:55
not they're not adults these are these are young boys that are out very early in the morning doing their newspaper
00:27:01
right and they also don't know that something important is going to happen that day they think that this is just a
00:27:07
regular day right you don't remember everything that somebody says verbatim unless you think it's something
00:27:14
important and so Johnny basically says something to the effect of this guy's kind of creepy right and I'm I'm going
00:27:23
to go about my business or I'm going home yeah he might have said like Captain creepy pants I mean who knows
00:27:29
regardless this is where Johnny continues down he's collected his papers now he's going to continue towards his
00:27:36
paper R yeah because he has a job to do I mean you have kind of a deadline people expect their papers at a certain
00:27:42
time yeah and once uh Johnny starts to head down the street the other boys they start to some of them start to leave as
00:27:49
well this is when Mike he's one of the other paper boys M he sees the man uh getting back into his car or or pulling
00:27:58
his legs into the car and getting back into the driver's seat uh he turns on the engine and he clicks the dome light
00:28:07
three times mhm uh Mike looks down the street to see Johnny heading down the street walking away from Mike and Mike
00:28:14
sees a tall man he says about 6' three yeah uh come out from some bushes and begin walking down the street after
00:28:23
Johnny now let's let's dive into this just a little bit I've often wondered about this and it's been discussed by
00:28:31
many many people if there were two people involved or if there weren't two people there if
00:28:38
it was only the driver in his car or if there was a man on foot and and if the man on foot had anything to do with
00:28:44
Johnny's disappearance at all noren suspects that the clicking of the dome light was some kind of signal to Signal
00:28:54
this man to come out or start walking after Johnny mhm I think that's a reasonable assumption I think it's a
00:29:01
reasonable assumption and and I can go along with that but I'm going to throw it on the 50/50 table because here
00:29:07
here's one thing that I kept thinking about when when reading this account over and over again now remember in
00:29:13
those old cars my my first car was a 1986 Buick so probably not too much newer probably not too much newer than a
00:29:23
than the vehicle that this person was driving he was driving a late 7 early 80s vehicle uhhuh now one thing in the
00:29:30
dome light you know how like the dome light has three modes it's either off on or it's on when the car door is open
00:29:37
yeah and you know how like when you're in in the car and if it's dark you never really know if forward is turning it
00:29:44
from car door to on or to to off right so if you were trying to just simply turn off the dome light so it wouldn't
00:29:52
turn on when your car door opens sometimes you would you would you would flick it on on and then you would flick
00:29:58
it back to car mode and then you would flick it off M and sometimes with these old Vehicles it would cause the light to
00:30:03
go on off on and then off well yeah I'm picking up what you're putting down you see what I'm saying there I part of me
00:30:10
wondered if this guy is alone and if he's not actually signaling another villain that that he's simply just
00:30:18
trying to turn off his car dome light because he's going to go do something bad and he might not want his face scen
00:30:24
or or less chance of there being light on him at this point and maybe it was just him figuring out how to turn the
00:30:30
dome light off and it it wasn't signaling anybody at all well we know that we know that uh Johnny saw him we
00:30:37
know that Mike saw him and then we also know that the adult saw him um John Rossy I believe is his name again now
00:30:44
why is this adult out there the adult the adult is out there because he's helping his kid with his route so the
00:30:51
adult is out there to pick up the papers sometimes you'd have this happen I had my best friend had a paper route I did
00:30:58
my paper out probably 80% of the time without my parents' help my friend on the other hand his parents would collect
00:31:05
the papers help roll him and then wake him up so he's kind of Lucky in that fashion he's one of those privileged
00:31:11
kids with the paper yeah he's privilege but but um but this adult's account is in my eyes makes a lot of sense because
00:31:19
this adult is a lawyer himself yeah and he gives a little he puts in his two cents about the uh the
00:31:26
man that he saw in the car you know the the the boy Mike and some of the other kids had said referenced slurred speech
00:31:34
right uh so your immediate thought is well was this guy drunk you know was he hammered is he intoxicated yeah and uh
00:31:42
Mike Rossy the adult he believed he didn't believe that the guy was intoxicated he actually states that uh
00:31:50
the guy seemed pretty alert almost hyperactive and kind of like ready to ready to go um it didn't seem sleepy at
00:31:59
all but again we have an adult waking up early probably waking up early a bunch of times and then you got a bunch of
00:32:05
early teenager kids waking up this is a lot harder for them to wake up and get their brains processing now one thing
00:32:12
that he did throw in about the description of the guy Mike Rossy he says that the guy John Rossy right oh
00:32:19
sorry John Rossy I'm confusing the boy with with the adult thank you uh but John Rossi says that the suspect or the
00:32:27
person that stopped to ask for directions he also didn't appear like he had just rolled out of bed which which
00:32:33
John Rossy thought was weird at the time uh because most adults you you get up it's very early it's 5 5:45 6:00 in the
00:32:41
morning even though that it's a weekend you know you're going to look you may look like you just rolled out of bed
00:32:46
this guy seemed like he had either been up all night or you been up for some time heck I look like I just rolled out
00:32:51
of bed at 9:00 at night you know that's 247 so 247 that's anyways yes so then what
00:32:59
happens next okay so now Johnny is he's walking down the street and this is at the point where the The Tall Man Who uh
00:33:08
is said to be about 6' three comes walking out from the bushes and he's walking from he's walking behind Johnny
00:33:16
now I've Al also often wondered about this 6' three reference is your only frame of reference for putting a a
00:33:24
height on this guy is it is it in reference to how tall Johnny is because Johnny was a tall kid I mean in my
00:33:32
opinion he was he was only 12 12 years old and yet he's 5' S at the time so I think that I think that a vehicle uh
00:33:41
somebody driving that did not know Johnny that saw him on the side of the road especially when it's dark just at
00:33:47
off a reference by height I would actually think that Johnny would be older personally that's what I would
00:33:53
think that maybe that this guy's actually about instead of 12 or that he's more likely to be about 15 um so I
00:34:01
don't know if they came up with the height of 6'3 as a reference to how much taller he would have been than Johnny uh
00:34:09
he's 6'3 so that's that's roughly what we got 8 inches there so are they saying uh he's about half a foot to a foot
00:34:16
taller than Johnny um anyway that's the height that they come up with now at some point this is where Johnny he's
00:34:25
walking down the street and he goes down down another Street he makes and this is
00:34:29
out of Mike's site uh this is where Johnny Goes to Mar Street and Mike hears a car door slam uhhuh he hears the car
00:34:39
door slam shut and then the same vehicle that the boys had seen earlier yeah the
00:34:44
blue the blue twoone blue for two door yep Mike sees that car speed off turning left and heading toward the interstate
00:34:54
and now this all roughly takes place in about a they say 12 minute time period let's
00:35:00
say 10 to 15 minutes and my firsthand account of being a paper boy I mean Not only was I a paper boy but I was a
00:35:07
honorary paper boy I had a special bag and everything he had a special helmet that he wore yeah that was to schol um
00:35:15
but the thing is is it was odd if you'd see I mean you'd see the the big truck come out drop off the papers as a
00:35:23
carrier for The Columbus Dispatch and that's pretty much it and I I I was by Major roads but you normally like on the
00:35:31
courts that I was delivering papers on you normally would never see a car some mornings you would see nothing at all
00:35:38
you wouldn't even see a a light turn on in a house sometimes yeah I mean it was is kind of strange so the fact I you
00:35:45
know I believe that this this was probably one of the only cars in the vicinity so I do believe this is the
00:35:51
suspect that we're looking at um there are some other things about norin story right so there uh she would
00:35:58
later make reference to uh the fact that she believes that Johnny was shot or struck by something uh that that uh
00:36:09
eyewitness had seen Johnny on the ground and then he's picked up by two men and and placed in the back of of a vehicle
00:36:18
right the blue vehicle we could assume and the vehicle drives off now keep in mind and now this is this account is
00:36:25
coming from an individual that kind of wakes up when they hear a scuffle and kind of looks out the window we have a
00:36:31
strange situation here and I think that the the one eyewitness that we discussed
00:36:35
earlier Mr uh PJ Smith that I think he just because of the lighting at the time and because he's looking out a window he
00:36:44
describes the vehicle that he sees as two-tone but it's a it's a um well not two-tone it's a silver and black car
00:36:53
right where a light blue and dark blue car may appear to be silver and black if it's not under a a street light uh or if
00:37:01
it's sitting in the dark um like I said there the the sunrise has probably not happened yet there's probably not a
00:37:08
bunch of Sun at this point and keep in mind the boys are saying we saw the exact same car of the guy that was
00:37:16
talking to us we saw that exact same car speed off and make a left and head towards the
00:37:22
interstate now yeah then the other the other statement she makes and and I don't know where she's getting this
00:37:29
information from is that then this car speeds off and then meets up with a van a white van and then they basically take
00:37:37
Johnny out of the car and put him into the white van like a cargo van again there's a reason why we call these
00:37:44
creeper Vans yeah you know it's like time and time again oh what was he driving a creeper van but let's keep in
00:37:51
mind here this is what I I try to keep in mind that all of the eyewitnesses from the statements recorded way back in
00:37:59
September of 1982 none of them mention seeing Johnny on the ground none of them mentioned seeing two men throwing his
00:38:07
body into a vehicle and again none of them mentioned seeing a white van or a van of any sort and what we're talking
00:38:14
about when you first arrived in the garage was we were talking about the trailer and I was telling you well first
00:38:20
of all you you knocked on me because it was a little too uh uh stranger things but uh I meant that as a compliment Oh I
00:38:27
thought it was a knock on me uh I was wearing my special helmet so uh but what happened with the first trailer I I wish
00:38:37
I took an original interview from like the mid 80s it was done on like one of those old giant home recorder things but
00:38:44
the audio was so bad I just couldn't use it and so then I found a new test you know basically telling the same story of
00:38:53
how he got abducted and it was was it was off and one of the things that was way different was that he was tased or
00:39:00
shot by something M and again I I don't know how common tasers were at that time
00:39:08
I'm assuming not that popular not as popular as they are today obviously but the the second account and the account
00:39:15
that you will hear in the trailer that's from 2016 you know and that's you know I
00:39:22
can't find a lot of accounts where they talk about this um being shocked or even
00:39:28
put into this cargo van the creeper van part of me wonders if that's a theory um
00:39:34
you know and sometimes these theories manifest into something that that you just start to believe yourself at some
00:39:39
point but I do believe that Johnny might have been difficult to get into a vehicle he was 5' s he was an active
00:39:46
young boy and uh and the other thing too is if his words were exactly any form of
00:39:54
of of the conversations that we have heard uh back at the paper at the paper pickup
00:40:00
right he already had a heightened sense of awareness at this time he's already he he's on his game because he's already
00:40:06
he's either frightened or he's been or he said this guy's a weirdo you know and usually I tell you what man at that time
00:40:12
of day at 6:00 in the morning it's still it's still dark out you encounter a weirdo you're you're on your game you're
00:40:20
yeah I mean it's creepy man it's you know last night I was uh you know talking to my friend pretty late and I
00:40:26
saw a jogger mhm you know and and it kind of freaked me out a little bit it's because you don't expect to see anything
00:40:33
or anybody why are you jogging yeah yeah did did you carry any kind of protection
00:40:39
with you on your paper r i mean I had my helmet yeah your special helmet that you
00:40:43
just just take the brunt of the force being no it varied I mean sometimes I'd walk on the route and and and but most
00:40:50
of the time I was using like my BMX you know my I had a mongoose expert you you had a badass bike very jealous of that
00:40:58
bike I saved up from a paper route you know some people use their money wisely and I bought a mongoose expert and uh
00:41:05
and I'd ride around and like it it would freak you out sometimes the the thing that would scare me the most is when you
00:41:12
go to toss the paper and the front door would open it happened to open at the same time oh God it oh it's the mo I
00:41:19
mean you almost piss yourself right there on the spot I used to do like a little contest with myself I would tie
00:41:25
myself and and I would constantly try to beat like uh if it was Monday I was trying to beat last Monday's time you
00:41:31
were like the CrossFit of the paper boys you know time in your workout but I had
00:41:36
I did have a little weapon because on on rare occasion I would get the dog chasing my bike uhhuh situation and uh I
00:41:43
never had to use it thank God cuz I don't know that I would be able to do it if I had to but uh I had one of those
00:41:49
little souvenir baseball bats you remember those things you get at the baseball game I had Columbus Clippers
00:41:54
ring your bell yeah I I think think I had a either Clipper one or maybe Cincinnati Reds or something but it's
00:42:00
about a about a foot long maybe 14 Ines maybe it was the Indians go tribe you could have cracked somebody in the head
00:42:06
with that let's not talk about the baseball bats on people's heads because after The Walking Dead I mean I'm just
00:42:13
I'm having nightmares man it was pure torture let's get back to the case yes so what ends up happening now Johnny's
00:42:19
gone okay and what happens on these paper routes back then I don't know how they work today like today if my
00:42:27
newspaper doesn't show up and yes I do still get the newspaper on the weekend old school yeah well I like I like the
00:42:33
way it feels in my hand uh so that's what she said when my newspaper doesn't show up I just call the the dispatch's
00:42:41
customer service and I wait 45 minutes before I get to speak to somebody well because of all these situations I mean
00:42:48
starting way back in in 82 with Johnny gosh I mean like we talked about one of the most famous abduction cases in
00:42:56
history it's a paper boy now like I said we were you know I was doing the the papers in the I don't know mid 90s I'm
00:43:04
guessing um but shortly after that it it became non-existent and now they give the routes to adults and they're all car
00:43:13
routes at least in in Columbus yeah so but but what I'm saying is back then you didn't call customer service to report
00:43:21
your paper missing and even when you and I did our paper routes uh most of the time most of the time they would just
00:43:27
call your house or your parents and say uh guess what the captain didn't show up
00:43:32
with the paper today uh I didn't see that kid with his funny helmet he must be in the garage talking to himself yeah
00:43:37
um he's recording it so but back then so Johnny's parents start receiving phone calls that hey our newspaper has not
00:43:45
shown up and so John Senior he just believes that Johnny's running late oh oh my boy's out there for the first time
00:43:52
on his own he's probably running late yeah well cuz at this point you know Big John we'll call him Big John um he wakes
00:43:59
up he's getting calls hey and they're probably not mean calls I mean this is 82 people are a little bit nicer back
00:44:04
then but it's like hey I haven't got my paper yet and so he probably thought oh crap you know little Johnny went out by
00:44:11
himself so now I'm going to go look for him so he goes out on his route and now my route was basically a short Court uh
00:44:20
a little longer court and then a very long court but you know for my parents to come out and find me it maybe 10
00:44:28
minutes at most so yeah so so Johnny come Big John goes out to look out for little John can't find him rushes back
00:44:36
home and immediately he calls the police and he States look there's something must be wrong cuz you know W people to
00:44:43
get their papers but I can't find him anywhere I thought that he found the wagon that he spotted the wagon with the
00:44:50
newspapers and it and that's when he knew that something was wrong that that kind of tipped him off um yeah I don't
00:44:56
don't have that in my notes but that I mean that totally and and you know I watched the documentary which is amazing
00:45:02
documentary I think if anybody gets a chance and if you want to dive into this uh uh case more that's definitely I mean
00:45:09
we're going to cover it more obviously but that's a good place to start um but yeah so but there the not only is the
00:45:17
wagon there but the dog is there and the papers are there yeah yeah and and you're right he goes he goes home
00:45:23
immediately he wakes up Norine or or norine's already up and he tells her call the police Johnny's missing mhm uh
00:45:31
noren calls the police and she says by her account that it was approximately 45 minutes before the police arrive uh to
00:45:40
take a report and back then unfortunately they had a 72-hour waiting period when a when a teenager would
00:45:50
specifically a teenager would go missing I I would imagine hopefully they would have better procedure if it's a
00:45:55
threeyear old or 5year old but but laws were different and because of situations
00:46:01
like these laws have been changed or had to be changed the other thing that uh noren does which is interesting is she
00:46:08
calls the district manager of the paper route because every like route like I I had a guy that I had to uh report to if
00:46:17
something was you know if somebody you know if somebody called my house and they're missing the paper uh they could
00:46:23
also call the dispatch to complain but it would go to my district manager so she ends up calling the district manager
00:46:30
explaining like look we can't find Johnny she gets the numbers of the boys on the different paper routes um they
00:46:38
get a good model of the car you know the the man talking to the boys uh so she starts collecting and this is pretty
00:46:46
quick afterwards I mean we're talking about within an hour or two let's say to be safe she's now collecting eyewitness
00:46:55
accounts because she doesn't have anything to report to the police and she's getting these eyewitness accounts
00:47:00
from the other paper boys right and and like we said it's about 45 minutes from the time that they call the police that
00:47:08
they arrive they take the report from the parents and at some point they are asked well has he ever run away before
00:47:17
right and they almost word it in a way that that sounds like he's probably run away before and he's run away again this
00:47:24
time um and Norine and and John Big John say you know well he's never run away at
00:47:31
all including this time and and fairness to the cops though this is something that you would think that you need to
00:47:38
ask well and this this is one thing that we talked about when we covered the West
00:47:42
Memphis 3 you know there were so many people in the uh uh Paradise Lost documentaries that got angry and upset
00:47:51
with John Mark buers because he seemed to throw out there that oh my son was on this this prescribed drug and he
00:47:58
happened to not take it today right and really what we pointed out there is what
00:48:03
we're going to point out here there are certain questions that the police are trained to ask given certain situations
00:48:09
and in a missing person's case or when a person is being reported as such a police officer is he's he or she is
00:48:17
trained to ask are they on any medications right have they ever run away before so what happens is sometimes
00:48:25
this is very off-putting to the parents and what I think happened here is I think we've seen norin okay she's a take
00:48:33
no prisoners kind of person I really I really as far as her being a crusader for Johnny I Champion her and I and I
00:48:42
like the cut of her jib and I think what has happened here is I think when she was asked has your son ever run away
00:48:48
before I think Norine probably gave the officer the business and this really kind of ticked off the police department
00:48:55
yeah but but she doesn't give like the crazy business I mean you you hear sometimes in interviews get a little
00:49:01
animated but in no way shape or form is is she like um a disrespectful person she seems very respectful from people
00:49:09
and obviously she might be a little hysterical cuz her boy is gone but uh she seems very respectful I just mean
00:49:16
she's a person looking for help and I don't think she believes she was receiving it at that time no [ __ ] right
00:49:21
yeah and and like you had said she goes into action mode on her own and big joh goes into action mode on his own they
00:49:30
they go into parental we are in charge we're going to find our child mode and the other thing here too is after the
00:49:38
police take the report they don't come back for several hours later uh to talk with the the parents again and this is
00:49:46
when noren and Big John are collecting this information they've even started organizing their own searches by this
00:49:54
time because basic basically now what's happening is they're talking to all these paper Boys on their routes they're
00:50:00
talking to the customers of their their child that haven't received their paper the whole community in in in essence is
00:50:07
worried you got the cops in there looking at you saying hey he probably just ran away which makes zero sense
00:50:16
zero sense you're exactly right go ahead okay cuz one think about it this way I mean his little I you know maybe he
00:50:22
wasn't in love with this little um wet red wagon he had right but he was using it as a tool but it's just like my
00:50:30
mongoo expert there's no way in hell I'm leaving that bike behind so but here's what we got we have a wagon we got
00:50:38
papers this kid for 13 months was super responsible with his paper out we don't have any uh accounts that we know of of
00:50:46
neglect or lacad isical attitude towards his business mhm and then we have his dog that's the biggest part of this
00:50:54
you're exactly right if you don't like your dog you're not taking the dog on the paper route you're not just doing
00:50:59
that for the fun of it you're doing it cuz you you know you love your dog and you want hey I'll just take my dog with
00:51:05
me right he was a part of the paper he or she Gretchen she's a part of the paper route um and I think you're
00:51:10
exactly right Captain I think that I understand the 72-hour waiting period back then more kids ran away than than
00:51:17
currently whatever but when you see when you see the circumstance when you see the empty when you see the wagon sitting
00:51:24
there full of papers see the dog left behind that doesn't that doesn't scream runaway well we have two pieces of EV
00:51:31
evidence that really important we have this mysterious man that we have multiple eyewitnesses accounts of seeing
00:51:40
this mysterious man and this m not mysterious car but it's a whatever it's this car we got the the eyewitness
00:51:47
accounts of that and then we have the scene where Johnny left all his stuff by all those accounts there's nothing to me
00:51:56
that points in the direction of runaway no this this screams um a potential dangerous abduction that that he
00:52:05
probably went somewhere unwillingly that and not only is this man seen and spotted twice he spotted twice both
00:52:13
times speaking directly to Johnny gosh well and then he speeds away and just the creep factor I mean so let's let's
00:52:22
go through the description of this uh of this guy so uh the from the eyewitness accounts this is what we were able to
00:52:29
piece together the suspect is 5' n approximately 5'9 175 lbs he had dark eyes dark eyebrows appeared to be in his
00:52:40
early to mid 40s uh black hair which was combed back uh he had a black mustache and it's also reported that he either
00:52:49
had a heavy beard or unshaven appearance uh and he also may have appeared to be be Latin um may have been driving a
00:52:58
two-tone blue car um real dark top and light blue bottom midsize vehicle approximately 1979 to 1981 model uh
00:53:10
clean inside and out no vinyl top plush interior and here's one thing that's very helpful is the Iowa license plate
00:53:20
mhm the other thing that's interesting about that Iowa plate is Norine claims to have had
00:53:26
a partial plate you know partial plate number right um I would love to see that on a website somewhere but that's not
00:53:33
been given in any of the the interviews or the documentaries that I know of do you want to talk about the search party
00:53:41
yeah so like we talked about before I mean um Norine is now calling in Big John is talking to a lot of the the
00:53:47
neighborhood and they basically get together about 20 people or over 20 people mhm uh anywhere from let's say 30
00:53:56
to 50 people right let's just do a bigger range 30 to 50 people show up at this park and they're going to search
00:54:03
they're starting a search party for Johnny well the sheriff shows up right yeah and the sheriff shows up and this
00:54:10
guy is going to play a bigger factor in the story as we go yeah we'll get into him more later but but as far as this is
00:54:17
concerned this is sheriff police chief Orville Clooney shows up to the uh police chief sorry I said uh sherff
00:54:25
police chief um Captain uh police chief douche snazzle is what we'll call him but basically he shows up stands up on a
00:54:34
picnic table and says hey everybody go home this kid is nothing but a damn runaway mhm Now 23 people of this bigger
00:54:43
group show up at the front lawn of the gosh's house and and say and they're standing outside and they said uh oh you
00:54:51
know they're pissed off cuz they're like wait a second we thought you wanted our
00:54:56
help and they said well yeah yeah we did want you we did want your help what the
00:55:00
hell is going on and they they're like well you know police uh Chief Captain duch snazzle told us to go home he's
00:55:07
just a runaway another thing that norne did that I thought was interesting because the FBI at this point A lot of
00:55:14
times now you'll see missing kid the FBI shows up right away so that the FBI never showed up so um noren calls the
00:55:24
FBI to agents came out to the home uh they explained to her hey uh we we know the case we know what's happening but uh
00:55:33
we will not be entering the case and that you need to prove to us that the child is in some sort of danger the
00:55:41
police chief doesn't want our help so again small community here's we have um a police
00:55:49
chief that is now assuming it's a runaway all the evidence points to that doesn't make any goddamn sense right mhm
00:55:59
and and all so not only do we we're going to assume he's a runaway but we don't want the help of the FBI and there
00:56:08
was a police officer that's on the documentary uh and this is a retired officer obviously he's an older
00:56:14
gentleman and I should go ahead before I bash him too much I should commend him for actually coming forward and talking
00:56:21
about the case for what what he could offer um because a lot of people seems like that were involved in the police
00:56:27
department at the time don't want to talk about this case uh so it seems like there was a lot of bad stuff going you
00:56:34
know kind of a trickle down effect and look I mean I'm not you know this police chief um might not be an awful person he
00:56:42
just might have made some mistakes he probably is but go ahead but but sometimes you know people get in a in a
00:56:49
um they get in a position of power and they try to control things and they try to do the things their way and that's
00:56:56
not always in the up and up and the more power they get more they take advantage
00:57:00
of situations or maybe they even get lazy and they don't want to do their job well the the police officer that I'm
00:57:06
talking about the retired officer that was in the documentary uh and this this is as of
00:57:12
like 2015 the documentary came out I don't know when the interview was conducted but I assuming it would have
00:57:18
been 2014 or early 2015 well they they are actually working on that documentary for like four or five years so they were
00:57:26
involved in this documentary for a long time but but regardless this case is over 30 years old so we're talking at
00:57:33
the time of this interview had to have been 25 years or later after the crime and the police retired police officer
00:57:40
says simply we didn't he's explaining why they didn't investigate and and his answer is we didn't have a crime scene
00:57:49
MH now I I just have such a hard time with that because we the the whole damn place is a crime scene you know the from
00:57:57
from the from the minute that Johnny is seen talking to that unknown person in the vehicle when he's off by himself to
00:58:05
the point where he gets to pick up his newspapers to where they find his wagon full of newspapers M that's all a crime
00:58:11
scene yeah yeah I totally agree with that yeah I mean and and and it baffles me where they go well there's there's no
00:58:19
crime scene again Your Wagon is left with your papers and your dog again now if you take away that dog to me MH and
00:58:28
it's just the wagon with some papers I might I might start leaning more to your side of oh there's no crime scene but
00:58:36
you know what boy is going to leave their dog behind I mean give me a break okay so that is the the general
00:58:43
story of the abduction uh you know eyewitness accounts noren's accounts Big John's accounts um and then we have you
00:58:52
know within the next few years there are a few weird and strange happenings that
00:58:57
occur and actually we'll get into those in more detail later because yeah the part two it's a part of the grander
00:59:03
scheme of things uh but there's somebody that we do have to introduce uh before the end of this episode and that is a
00:59:10
man by the name of Paul Basi yeah now this is a guy a young man that comes forward and when I say young man he's
00:59:18
actually a man when he comes forward he's not uh he's not Johnny's age at the time of Johnny's disappearance and what
00:59:24
years do come forward this is 9 years after uh Johnny is abducted okay um Paul bas1 yeah he comes forward and he says
00:59:34
that um well I you know and this is how he's described he's a he's a guy that's sitting in jail right and he's in jail
00:59:43
for um sex offender child molestation charges of his own um now we should phrase that appropriately he apparently
00:59:54
he improperly touched his cousin who and uh so there was something that was going
01:00:00
on there but Basi was 17 at the time that he was he was arrested for this uh so it does seem a little strange that he
01:00:08
would still be in jail for it 9 years later right regardless he gets in contact with his
01:00:16
um lawyer with his attorney and he's telling the attorney about um some strange things of his childhood right
01:00:26
and he was involved in uh in kind of the sex slave business if you will right um
01:00:33
well and this is at this time uh people you know and they talk about this in the
01:00:38
documentary too is a lot of these investigators and stuff didn't even know what the word pedop pedophile was MH and
01:00:47
he tells his attorney all these these stories about this child sex ring and he was at these these parties where people
01:00:56
would have sex with children or children would do things with these adults and some of these adults are are figureheads
01:01:03
of the community some of them are people of Power are politicians and police Chiefs and um now this is this is taking
01:01:11
place in omah Hall Nebraska yeah and remember Johnny goshh was abducted in De Moy Iowa yeah uh so this is across the
01:01:20
the straight the state line there um but the thing that further makes this these allegations even Wilder
01:01:29
right is he says I was involved in the Abduction of Johnny gsh and he says that which like we said again this is
01:01:40
extremely popular case in that area in the Midwest and in our area we're part of the Midwest but the other thing that
01:01:47
makes this really strange is he talks about you know he has a like a personality disorder and maybe has
01:01:52
multiple personalities and he can and almost summons these and you can see it time and time again where he will lay
01:02:00
his head on the table when he's talking and going over these events and then he kind of summons you know altered
01:02:08
Personality yeah and I don't know if I believe any of that [ __ ] but well let's
01:02:12
get into that in a minute let's talk about the abduction again so this is Paul baz's uh involvement according to
01:02:19
Paul he says that uh he was used uh to kind of lure uh Johnny because at the time Paul would have been only a few
01:02:29
years older than Johnny yeah and this might have made it easier to get him in the vehicle or to draw him close if you
01:02:35
needed to do something to him yeah Paul said that not only was his job to lure Johnny uh near the vehicle or to talk to
01:02:43
the other men involved but at some point his job was to hold down Johnny gosh in
01:02:49
the back seat of this vehicle and chloroform him you know that's where you take the the the the the rag or whatever
01:02:56
and you stuff it over the person's face and you hold it there until they they fall asleep um well the the fumes are
01:03:03
what makes them pass out yeah and he says that this was his job in the um in the process now this would go along
01:03:11
somewhat with noren's version uh that we we would hear later of the vehicle of the car pulling up and to the creeper
01:03:20
van to the creeper van and then then the body going from the car to the creeper van mhm and then would assume that it
01:03:26
would be limp at that you know Johnny's body would be limp at that point because
01:03:31
uh you know of the the rag and and and know the fixation right is that what happen well no cuz that that would mean
01:03:40
he would be completely dead yeah yeah so but but he's knocked him out with the fumes the fumes yeah yeah and mobilizes
01:03:47
him so the story seems plausible but it's also very crazy right and where well what's his motive for talking about this
01:03:58
I mean I you know is cuz sometimes there's that you know you tell us some information and we'll let you go early
01:04:06
you know but actually this is implementing you in something way bigger than what you're in jail for in the
01:04:13
beginning yeah and I here's the problem I can't really I can't come up with a motive for
01:04:20
why he would come forward with this because he does not get out of jail early uh for for the crime he committed
01:04:28
um he does end up being involved in a lawsuit in a civil lawsuit right uh now this is for his claims against the uh
01:04:36
Larry King Lawrence E King uh who was involved with the Franklin Credit Union yeah now this is this is a much bigger
01:04:45
story than what we can fit into the end of this episode but but the gist of it is that the the Franklin Credit Union
01:04:52
right they get raided because there's information that comes out that there's all kinds of illegal activity going on
01:05:00
and around the Franklin Credit Union yeah money laundering and money laundering embezzlement there's missing
01:05:06
funds well and then also what happens with uh credit unions or any banks is that normally the larger entities have
01:05:14
Auditors uh one of my good friends Jeff uh which just text me two minutes ago said he listens to the show now which is
01:05:21
pretty cool but he travels the country auditing these different banks so a lot of times in these audit situations they
01:05:28
start finding all these crazy discrepancies so now they're figuring out okay well we got all this money
01:05:34
going to all these places and based off of you know investigation that's you know purely financial and are you and
01:05:43
the up and up in the financial institute it uncovers this holy hell of you know to me it's just almost you know demonic
01:05:53
almost you know as far as what was going on with these higher ups yeah so benasi
01:05:59
and a few others claim that the Frankland Credit Union and Larry King specifically and now let's call him
01:06:05
Lawrence Lawrence King so we don't confuse him with the with the great the great interviewer from CNN that
01:06:11
everybody knows about it's not the same guy Lawrence King yeah so this is Lawrence King Lawrence King very bad
01:06:17
Larry King from CNN very good okay so Lawrence King he is involved in using this organization that's called boy town
01:06:27
and he's also using some other child organizations but but basically boy toown is a place that uh boy Town it
01:06:35
sounds like a boy band you would send it does you would send young young men young boys to this place and they would
01:06:42
have activities for them to do and things like that there's probably summer camps involved this could be for
01:06:47
troubled youths this could be for uh persons that uh maybe they don't have the traditional Family Life at home kind
01:06:55
of like a big brother program or something exactly and it sounds like uh Lawrence King and some of the people
01:07:02
involved in his ring they were using this as a way to uh don't even say it we know what
01:07:09
they were doing bunch of weirdos right right so they're they're having these parties um and they're taking these boys
01:07:16
and these young uh girls and they're taking advantage of them to on trips into places and giving them money and
01:07:24
and in in return they're expecting the worst thing you can think of right and yeah so this so we know that this kid is
01:07:34
involved or at least he's making claims that he was involved in this Scandal which uh this Scandal is pretty broken
01:07:40
wide open it's pretty factual that this Scandal happened mhm uh so it's not just
01:07:45
claims I mean I think the way you made it sound was that these boys are just claiming that this happened there's
01:07:51
there's tons of factual evidence that Pro proves that this happened so there is now some more weight to um Paul's uh
01:08:01
Basi claims MH and what what takes place here too is this is this is when he comes out that I was involved with the
01:08:09
Johnny gosh abduction and he says that the reason for this is that this ring uh this child sex slave ring they liked to
01:08:20
uh abduct clean kids um these weren't were involved and that Johny was one of these
01:08:28
KS and that on occasions they auction these these youths off to these perverted people whether it be people
01:08:36
from the states or from overseas um so basically what Paul's saying is that since he's been to these
01:08:42
parties since he's been taken advantage of before that he's just not you know he's not worth much to um these
01:08:51
individuals and so some of the guys the higher ups guys with a little more money
01:08:57
like we said they put a price tag I'll pay you know 10,000 bucks 5,000 bucks whatever the dollar amount is is for a
01:09:06
new kid um that's never been taken advantage of before now Paul also claims that he can prove that that he was with
01:09:16
Johnny gsh um and he says this because he can there's some identifiers on the young boy right and one is a birth mark
01:09:26
on Johnny's chest in his chest area now this we should point out though you know
01:09:33
that some of the interviews and things that you hear will say that this definitively proves that Paul Basi knew
01:09:39
Johnny goshh that that his story is true but we should point out that that birth
01:09:44
mark was was heavily publicized it was something that everybody that knew anything about the case knew of this
01:09:52
this U birth yeah and it's weird I mean let's just talk about this birth mark for for example because when we end up
01:09:58
talking about the pictures that may or may not be Johnny gsh uh they talk about can you see this birth mark it's kind of
01:10:06
a dis discoloration mhm it's not like this very noticeable it's just kind of a different
01:10:12
coloration it's not like a gorbage off uh very right prominent yeah it's more of just kind of a maybe a little bit of
01:10:20
a darker um tone and in this one area around his shoulder shoulder and chest area he also says that there was a scar
01:10:30
on Johnny's tongue um and noren confirms that he would have had a scar on his tongue yeah cuz he bit through his
01:10:36
tongue when he was younger again now that one wasn't publicized for any knowledge that I have of that exactly as
01:10:44
well as a burn scar on Johnny's leg on one of his legs and Norine confirms that he would have had a burn scar as well
01:10:51
and again this one is not publicized either right um and the the final thing that he says is that Johnny would
01:10:58
stammer his speech would stammer when he was upset or scared um he also describes
01:11:05
he he talks about the abductor uh he names him he says his name was Amelio yeah um and he would go on to say that
01:11:12
Johnny would have been Johnny was purchased by a guy that lived in Colorado right again so what we have
01:11:20
right now is we have Paul's claims uh one I think backed up a little bit about the Lawrence King
01:11:28
Scandal you know there's some credibil credibility there now we got these weird marks the the the birth mark which again
01:11:37
maybe he knew about from the publicity we have the birth mark we got the the scar on his tongue from cutting through
01:11:44
his tongue when Johnny gsh was younger and then we got this burn mark on his leg now um norin is saying okay well he
01:11:53
there's some things that he should not know about and then he talks about this whole scenario so we got two right MH
01:12:01
he's batting you know pretty good right now and he starts talking about this connection about he's bought and he's
01:12:08
they're going to take him to Colorado now again they're kind of thinking well this guy is a little crazy
01:12:15
he's he's summonsing other personalities during interviews yeah you had said earlier
01:12:21
personality uh but but multiple personalities is what he was they thought he may have had yeah
01:12:29
and he would like summons them it's really strange and I don't know how much I buy that or how much attention he was
01:12:34
looking for again the the you know Paul did some bad things himself you know you
01:12:41
know to family members and there's other claims or whatever and now you have this
01:12:46
whole ring that he's possibly involved again I think it's a situation where he was a victim and and now they're making
01:12:54
him victimize people you know there this ring of people so now he starts making these claims about somebody hiring um
01:13:02
you know they want hiring people to capture Johnny so that so he you know uh this this gentleman will be able to be
01:13:10
the first one to take advantage of Johnny and he's making claims in Colorado well when they go out and have
01:13:17
Paul show him where this place was it's this Ranch that was owned by like a prison guard or somebody correct and
01:13:26
this is where it gets really strange for me he talks about behind the back underneath like the porch or something
01:13:33
there's this opening and he said that's where we'd put the kids well not only is
01:13:39
there a opening that this guy talks about this like secret doorway there are these tunnels that are dug underneath
01:13:46
this property and then when you go into these tunnels and you look up into these
01:13:52
floorboards you know underneath this building yeah there are child names you can talk into the mic that's what you
01:13:59
got do I like talking to you yeah you got to talk in the mic so the beautiful people can hear your Nas drone yeah so
01:14:08
we in the we're in the underneath the house there's the these tunnels or holes dug out and they almost look like fox
01:14:17
holes to me you know like what they they say in the in in war you know you're down this
01:14:22
Foxhole but a war Fox and this is where you would I imagine that if if you thought the authorities were coming or
01:14:29
if there was somebody coming to the house that you would place a group of children under there so you could
01:14:34
conceal them and your secret wouldn't be out uh but as you were saying that there's there's names or or initials
01:14:42
yeah child initial again we don't know what it is I mean all we can go based off of is Paul's
01:14:51
claims and that's some crazy [ __ ] to just make up out of nowhere yeah yeah I want to offer my opinion on his claims
01:14:59
so badly but I feel like we got so much more to get into before before we can do
01:15:04
that okay keep going well we should also mention the in 1992 a show that we've talked about a lot on here is the famous
01:15:13
show America's Most Wanted hosted by John Walsh now John Walsh actually knew noren and John gosh uh they had met
01:15:21
through the investigation of of finding Johnny and they along with other parents
01:15:27
were involved uh in the founding of the uh Missing the the foundation for missing and exploited children right uh
01:15:34
which we've the True Crime garage has made our made our little donation and we'll do so again in the future but John
01:15:41
Walsh features this case on his show now by the time that he's able to feature it
01:15:46
92 the reason why they wanted to this is the anniversary of the 10-year anniversary of the Abduction of Johnny
01:15:53
gosh right and they're able to present Paul benasi story during the same episode because he's already come
01:16:01
forward at this time now the strange thing here I mean as if Paul Basi story isn't couldn't get any stranger he he
01:16:09
has all these strange claims and all these strange things that he's saying but then he says and his actions I mean
01:16:15
the actions of summoning you know I'm going to summons a different personality is is kind of bizarre well and the
01:16:22
person alties some of them they have names and ages and and things that they've experienced that other
01:16:28
personalities have not experienced which is wild but anyway uh he's talking about
01:16:34
and not that I don't believe that that is a real thing that people probably do suffer from not saying that I don't
01:16:41
believe that that's real at all I'm just saying it just kind of seems hokey and the documentary and then you
01:16:48
know diving into it more and seeing other interviews with Paul it seems a little hokey when he's doing it if you
01:16:54
have multiple personalities have each one of them go to iTunes and give us a fstar review um but Paul Basi he's
01:17:02
telling his story and he's saying that not only that are there kids that are in this program in this sex slave ring
01:17:09
right uh but some of them they brand them and there's a specific brand and it looks like a like a symbol like an X
01:17:16
with maybe you know some kind of U or anchor type shape underneath the X um and he describes
01:17:24
this but this the thing that I can't get over here Captain is that after after the story comes out on America's Most
01:17:32
Wanted you know you know these kind of shows they they show you a phone number at the end and if you have any
01:17:37
information you can call this number and you will be you can be kept Anonymous and yeah they're hoping to get
01:17:42
information about The Disappearance of Johnny goshh what ends up happening is they get phone calls from kids and young
01:17:49
adults that are saying yeah I was in that program yeah The Branding I was I was trapped these people did terrible
01:17:56
things to me and I have The Branding on my arm or leg right yeah yeah and and here's what's interesting to me so when
01:18:03
we think about Paul again not much motive there's nothing he's not going to get much out of just lying to the
01:18:11
authorities about some uh random kid in a different town going missing has not much to gain mhm other than maybe some
01:18:20
clarity and some some uh weight lifted off of him and maybe he wants to change around his life right so first of all he
01:18:29
talks about the abduction he talks about these characteristics that all seems legit he talks about this stuff with
01:18:35
Lawrence King that all seems to check out he talks about the guy that uh hired the guy ailio ailio ailio to take him to
01:18:44
Colorado they take they take Paul to Colorado and guess what he shows you this underground place where there's
01:18:50
people kids names or initials carved in the walls and now he starts telling you about this branding that sounds even
01:18:59
stranger what is he talking about he said there's this ring and all these kids come forward again another a
01:19:06
factual thing that he he says something and then there's proof to back it up mhm
01:19:12
do I believe Paul bonas's claims I believe some of them and like you said there's he he he States something and
01:19:20
then boom there's there's something that backs up and this happens time and time
01:19:25
again there where we don't have proof to back something up is when he discusses the Abduction of Johnny goshh um there
01:19:33
is a situation where you know the the the police uh from De Mo they go to Omaha Nebraska and they interview um Paul
01:19:45
baz's family his siblings and and they ask him to they want to figure out where his whereabouts were at the time of
01:19:52
Johnny's disappearance now all of his family members say that he was he was there in Nebraska well yeah mainly the
01:19:59
his siblings yeah and there's a couple things we should point out here um it's not a terrible stretch to believe that
01:20:06
somebody could have been in Nebraska and Iowa in the same day that is certainly possible um the other thing is the
01:20:14
police did interview his siblings about 10 years after the fact um so that's pretty hard to remember where somebody
01:20:22
was on a specific day uh 10 years earlier um so that you know you can give Paul the benefit of the doubt there but
01:20:31
where where I have the problem with the Johnny gsh portion of his story yeah is there's nothing that leads anywhere
01:20:39
there's no amelo there's no person to go to and there's no car there's there's nothing he can point to other than the
01:20:46
fact that other than him saying I was in the back of this vehicle and my job was
01:20:51
to chloroform the kid and then we put the kid into a van and there's there's several issues I have with that one it's
01:20:59
been reported by multiple eyewitnesses this is a two-door car this isn't a four-door car that presents some
01:21:05
obstacle with with his story uh the other thing is he you can't lead us to amelo you can't tell us who alelo is is
01:21:14
alelo a code name is it is the it the Guy's real name I mean somebody said he could have been Latin uh said he had
01:21:20
slurred speech maybe he didn't have slurred speech it was just an accent or don't you think the lawyer um John Rossy
01:21:28
would would know that it was some kind of accent you know You' think he would know possibly I yeah I could agree with
01:21:36
that but again what I'm getting at here Captain is there's no he can't lead us to the vehicle he can't lead us to
01:21:41
Amelia yeah but he was also a kid at the time yeah he would have been uh 15 16 years old yeah yeah but that's a
01:21:47
freaking kid and 10 years later I mean you know the difference between the captain when he was 15 and 25 was a huge
01:21:54
difference but what I'm what I'm getting at here and the other thing the other problem I have with some of the Paul
01:21:59
Basi story is that his lawyer says that he spoke and this is when the lawyer finds out about Paul's multiple
01:22:07
personalities right he says you know uh I spoke to this psychiatrist that was leaving um psychologist psychiatrist
01:22:15
whichever one it is um we'll just say both so I'm covered either way too many drinks but uh he speaks to to this
01:22:23
gentleman who's leaving uh the the jail where Paul Basi is telling these stories
01:22:29
and he says to him you know is he telling you all these wild stories and and the the man says yes um however you
01:22:35
know these aren't lies he's he's incapable of lying he's a multiple personality and he rather than lying
01:22:43
he's going to switch to a personality that was there that experienced that situation and he's going to tell you the
01:22:50
story well regardless of how many personalities are housed in one body at a time I can tell
01:22:57
you from personal experience that every day I'm surrounded by multiple personalities and it just so happens
01:23:03
that it's only one per person but I guarantee you if I lined up 10 of those people there's a liar in one of the at
01:23:10
that group yeah I understand that but but the the thing is the reason why he is going into these multiple
01:23:17
personalities is to deal with trauma you know because of the trauma because of this ring that he was involved in and
01:23:24
because he was a victim of Lawrence King and and others that's why he's going into these multiple personalities as a
01:23:32
way as a defense mechanism this is this is what I'm guessing I haven't really read up on it that's what I'm guessing
01:23:40
so one I mean yes he he's victimized people but him himself is uh Paul himself is a victim okay so we need to
01:23:50
treat him as such and and treat him with some uh gentle kindness right for the stuff that was done wrong to him here's
01:23:58
the thing though he he mentions scars that weren't publicized norin believes him that's I I feel strong about that
01:24:09
also there's T time and time again what he is saying that sounds so crazy gets backed up so you're saying
01:24:19
okay five things he says gets backed up but this one he's lying about okay then tell me how how did he know about these
01:24:26
scars well I would like to witness the conversation where those scars are discussed was was he led was was was the
01:24:34
discussion LED in a way that he could could pick up on this here's the thing I do want to point out I firmly believe
01:24:41
that Paul benasi is a victim of some sort I truly believe that something terrible happened to him when he was a
01:24:48
young when he was young and I believe I don't know know much about multiple personalities and I'm not going to
01:24:55
pretend to what I can see on his face and in his demeanor he clearly to me shows signs of of PTSD where where he
01:25:04
has he has suffered some form of trauma and it's probably in the form of sex sexual abuse at the hands of adults and
01:25:12
probably terrorized and I believe that he he is a victim and he he has trauma um I I don't know I just wonder if if
01:25:20
coming up with you asked for a motive on bringing Johnny gosh into this whole discussion by Paul Bazi and I just
01:25:27
wonder is was he telling this story about Lawrence C king or Lawrence E King over and over again and nobody's
01:25:34
believing him was he telling this story about this child sex ring and nobody wanted to hear it and then all of a
01:25:39
sudden I bring up Johnny gosh and oh how the ears have opened oh how the microphones have swarmed to me and now I
01:25:47
have a platform to discuss what's really going on right and I just L you in well
01:25:54
again I mean I think that I I think if you want to know the truth then you have to go to the source of when he's talking
01:25:59
about these scars and how he knows these scars how how he knows this information
01:26:04
about the scars you know because because the thing too is that you when I first heard this I thought well what if I mean
01:26:11
look if this kid is involved and you know he's just kind of used Goods I mean that's what he says like they just
01:26:17
that's his own words you're exactly right they they're not really interested in me because I have already been Tak
01:26:22
advantage of and that wasn't the thrill there's bigger money and taking advantage of these these kids uh you
01:26:29
know for the first time it it's [ __ ] disgusting okay first of all but um what your French is not very good so I pardon
01:26:38
it it's [ __ ] it I mean when you're talking about this this stuff is disgusting you know and this and these
01:26:46
to me are the closest thing that we have uh on this Earth to Demons this is a to
01:26:53
me um you know whether you believe in heaven or hell and God and all that stuff to me this is a satanic action I
01:27:00
mean uh this this that's a demon action uh to to abuse kids like that and uh you
01:27:08
know I I'm not you know a you know proponent for the death penalty but you know I I would like to you know take a
01:27:15
baseball bat to a lot of these guys' heads you know uh but anyways maybe he just got confused they
01:27:22
actually abducted a different kid you know but again the scars and norin saying now again this is
01:27:31
a mother is she just hearing stuff that she wants to hear and making connections
01:27:37
uh where there aren't connections I don't know the other strange thing though to me Captain in this whole
01:27:42
investigation is that the police that and I mean specifically the de Mo Iowa police that were involved in the uh
01:27:51
disappearance of of Johnny gosh um involved in the investigation I don't even know if we
01:27:58
can call it an investigation on their and didn't seem like they were putting much effort into it at the time no for I
01:28:04
mean look a couple hours in they're they're telling the community that this kid a runaway but no freaking evidence
01:28:11
to back that up nine or 10 years later whatever I don't care how long it is they never at any point they go and
01:28:18
interview Paul bonas's siblings and determine by their recol ction that that he could not have been in the area of of
01:28:25
Johnny goshh at the time of The Disappearance however they never speak to Paul benasi right I I can't wrap my
01:28:32
head around that thing man why wouldn't you talk to this guy even if he's completely wrong you know and in a lot
01:28:38
of murder cases and a lot of missing persons cases there will be some wacko that walks off of the street into the
01:28:45
police department says hello my name is bluy blug and I have information about this thing or yeah or I mean or look at
01:28:52
the John B ramsy case I mean you got a guy overseas claiming he did it and when police are doing their job in detectives
01:29:00
are working hard to try to solve a case they might know that a person is batshit
01:29:05
crazy but they will sit down and talk to them anyway why because you never know what they are going to say you never
01:29:12
know something in there could be factual something there could be a clue in there
01:29:17
somewhere something to follow up on and again we just see little to no effort on
01:29:24
the part of the police to look into The Disappearance of a young boy of a 12-year-old dude that's out delivering
01:29:32
newspapers that was a part of his community that had that grew and he grew up in a nice area we're not talking
01:29:37
about you know time and time again we hear about some poor young African-American boy that got handed a
01:29:43
raw deal you know this that's not the case here this is a kid in a nice neighborhood that you expect to get
01:29:50
every break right and they didn't even do they didn't even do it there um for whatever reason well I think some of
01:29:56
that comes into play with this corrup police chief you know and there's a lot more stuff that comes out about him and
01:30:02
we can talk about that in the part two but that becomes like a black eye a little stain on your department and so
01:30:09
maybe it was just you know and and plus I mean you have this uh mother doing her
01:30:14
due diligence you know and and she's put in the time and the effort not only that
01:30:19
but now noren and and Big John or or or working overtime working extra jobs they're paying for a private
01:30:27
investigator and and there was some conflict uh between the police chief and the gosh family about that so I mean
01:30:35
some of it I think is just you know uh people need to take a good slice of Humble Pie you know sometimes and
01:30:42
remember what your damn job is that's Serve and Protect you know that's your job M you know sometimes you just you
01:30:48
know rise above be better like I said last week be be more human you know and that and I just think that they they
01:30:56
dropped the ball multiple times in this case I mean from the get-go you don't tell the community that he's a runaway
01:31:03
assume the worse and then and then go searching and and lift up every Rock do everything you can cuz it's a it's a
01:31:11
freaking child give them a chance okay we have got to cover this in another show because this is just the tip of the
01:31:18
iceberg here there's so much more to talk about there's so many different elements to this case there's some other
01:31:24
weird strange wacky things um some of them true some of them may not be true but there's so much more to discuss
01:31:32
regarding The Disappearance of Johnny gsh the child sex ring uh the gosh family the police department it goes on
01:31:39
and on and on I'm just going to say it in part one and I'll say it again in part two a lot of the stuff that we're
01:31:44
going to bring up we're bringing it up you know as far as knowledge and information and then obviously there's
01:31:50
some entertainment value of all that that that a lot of the stuff that we're bringing up is not necessarily because
01:31:55
we believe in it you know we're just we're going but we're going to present as many things as we can yeah it should
01:32:01
all be reported and did you do your job this week do we have any uh recommended reading I did my job my friend and do
01:32:09
your job this week we are recommending the Franklin cover up this is a story about child abuse Satanism and murder in
01:32:16
Nebraska and this is by John de Camp John de Camp who is that that is the attorney that worked with Paul Bazi and
01:32:23
that interviewed him and he this was his way of getting the story out to the masses so if you want to learn more
01:32:30
about the Franklin coverup the Franklin Credit Union and Lawrence King and all that strange going on there it's the
01:32:38
Franklin coverup child abuse Satanism and murder in Nebraska by John DeCamp you can pick that up by going to our
01:32:44
website true Crim garage.com click on the recommended page and we have our recommended books there and thank you
01:32:51
guys so much much for listening thanks so much for telling a friend the growth of this show has been amazing hopefully
01:32:56
we can get it to you know multiple shows a week pretty soon uh cuz we love you crazy Freaks and actually I think we're
01:33:03
going to do two shows in the garage next week right yeah well I wasn't going to tell them about the Little Hen we'll see
01:33:09
you back here next week for do shows in the garage and until next time be good be kind and don't Litter don't litter on
01:33:18
your JY [Music] Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I
01:33:44
thought it was an Eco move few worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iic must be a
01:33:53
tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare upfront
01:33:57
prices book a service instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us
01:34:04
so much more than just a list get started at angie.com that's ngi or download the app today