00:00:00
How could popular Mormon family vlogger Ruby Frankie end up being convicted for child abuse? The answer to that question
00:00:06
is Jodie Hildebrandt. But Jod's manipulation extended far beyond the Frankie family, seemingly leaving a
00:00:13
trail of victims in her wake. This ID documentary event features never-before-seen interviews from
00:00:19
survivors who found the courage to expose her systematic abuse. Ruby and Jody, a cult of sin and influence.
00:00:26
Premier September 1st at 9:00 p.m. Eastern on ID. >> Welcome to Off the Record. I'm your host
00:00:41
Nick Crime. >> It's good to be seen and it's good to see you. Off the record. Thanks for
00:00:48
listening. Thanks for telling a friend. >> True Crime Podcast. Be good, be kind,
00:00:54
and don't little. >> Gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.
00:01:02
>> Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
00:01:06
for listening. This week we're doing a little bit of an off therecord style here because we were incredibly excited
00:01:16
about the docue series that recently came out on a case that we have been neck deep, nay, eyeballs deep into for
00:01:25
quite some time. And we are talking about the yogurt shop murders. We are drinking some beer of course here in the
00:01:32
garage today. We're excited to be featuring Home Eck Partners brewed by the fabulous folks at Moore Brewing
00:01:39
Company. Home Partners is a double coffee style aged for 36 months in Weller Special Reserve and Eagle Rare
00:01:49
Barrels. That's some very fine bourbon barrels. And then they mix in some vanilla beans and cocoa and dark matter
00:01:58
coffee. It's ABV 16.2%. So, make sure you drink this one at home or share it with your friends. But
00:02:05
speaking of friends, this beer is a nod to one of my favorite movies. And that movie is Super Bad. So, this beer
00:02:13
fantastic. Four and 3/4 bottle caps out of five. >> These eyes are crying. That's a little
00:02:21
nod to Super Bad. >> Exactly. Thank you for flexing the golden pipes here for us, Captain. The
00:02:28
yogurt shop murders in 1994. Four teenage girls were brutally murdered at a frozen yogurt shop in Austin, Texas.
00:02:36
This month, HBO just released a documentary on the still unsolved case, The Yogurt Shop Murders. This is a
00:02:44
four-part docue series that explores the case and the enduring mystery that forever changed the city of Austin,
00:02:53
Texas. The victims here, Captain, are Jennifer Harbison, Eliza Thomas. Both were 17 at the time. They worked they
00:03:01
were employees of the I can't believe it's yogurt which was located on West Anderson Lane in Austin. Jennifer's
00:03:10
sister Sarah Harbinson was 15 years old and Amy Ays was just 13. The two of them
00:03:16
arrived at the yogurt shop around closing time on December 6th, 1991. This with plans to attend a sleepover
00:03:25
together. Amy was a an eighth grader at Bernett Middle School. The other girls attended Laneir High School and the
00:03:34
murders occurred after the girls had finished cleaning up the shop and were preparing to close the shop for the
00:03:40
night before they could leave for that evening. Unfortunately, they were forced to the back room at gunpoint. There they
00:03:48
were shot in the head. Some were gagged, some were bound, and some were controlled with their own clothes. And
00:03:53
we can get into some of the details that we know about this case as we go through. Their bodies were stacked on
00:04:01
top of one another and a portion of the yogurt shop was set on fire. The fire was likely set to destroy evidence. The
00:04:10
crime was particularly shocking for Austin, which was considered a relatively safe city at the time. The
00:04:18
case has remained a source of grief and pain for the families and the community for all of this time.
00:04:25
>> And we've covered this case extensively. We recovered it when we were heading
00:04:31
down to Austin for Crime Con a few years back and it's one of I'd say one of your
00:04:38
pet cases. >> Yeah. So, we looked into this case in 2017 and then re-examined it again when it
00:04:47
hit the sad 30-year anniversary in 2021 at the start of December of 2021. I'm excited that HBO is doing the docu
00:04:59
series because if you go to Texas, especially of course in Austin, it's a case that cannot receive enough
00:05:08
attention because there's so many people that say, and this this was publicly announced by
00:05:15
the mayor and folks on the news at the time, that this is when Austin truly lost its innocence forever. And so there
00:05:25
are many people that live in this area that will tell you this is a big marker, a big event on their timelines and of
00:05:34
their lives where there are things events that occurred before Yogurt Shop and there are things that were after
00:05:41
Yogurt Shop. So, I was excited to see that while we have covered it probably about four hours or so of coverage of
00:05:48
this case in our own regard, but I I don't shy away from viewing, listening, or reading anything that comes out about
00:05:57
this case. In fact, in 2017 when we covered it, we relied on different materials and such than what we used for
00:06:05
the 2021 coverage. So, we were able to kind of go back and re-examine it through a
00:06:11
different angle, present information that we did not present the first time around. There's no shortage of
00:06:18
information out there about this case. There's no shortage of speculation about this case. And anybody if you
00:06:26
don't know anything about this case at all and you started to watch the first episode or two, you'll see immediately
00:06:34
why there is so much speculation about this case. One thing I think people are surprised to learn is that we don't
00:06:43
always when the new crime book comes out or the new true crime documentary comes
00:06:49
out, we don't always dive in head first. A lot of the time it's because we're working on a case to present it to you
00:06:56
the the following week. But when it's a case like this, one that is, like I said, probably arguably one of your top
00:07:04
cases that you've looked into, there's some excitement because, well, one, HBO does it right.
00:07:12
>> And I think this documentary is very important. So, if you don't watch a ton of true crime documentaries, this one I
00:07:20
think is really important. And I think Margaret Brown, which is the director and I believe like the producer of this,
00:07:28
but we're kind of discussing this idea back with the Amy Bradley case is true crime documentaries have changed a lot
00:07:38
since the '9s. And HBO has been on the front lines of putting out some of the best true crime documentaries of all
00:07:47
time. And I think this one there's a there's a nostalgia to it. And I think it's done more in the in the old school
00:07:55
way where I think true crime documentaries have become more about not so much the information but more as an
00:08:05
entertainment. And we see that with true crime podcasts. Some true crime podcasts
00:08:10
are more about the facts and putting out information about the case. And I think
00:08:14
other ones are about just being entertaining and not sticking always to the facts. I think we're probably a mix
00:08:24
somewhere in between. We try to lean heavy on just the facts man. And then obviously we have this individual in the
00:08:32
garage that keeps showing up, this drunken captain that says ridiculous horseshit from time to time. But this
00:08:39
one hits you so hard. It's very emotional. Like I said, it's really important. And there's something about
00:08:45
that HBO intro where it goes to the static screen and just from the word jump. I just really think this one isn't
00:08:55
important. The case very early on was had several different names. The ICBY murders, the ICBY
00:09:06
case, the yogurt shop murders. The one that seems to have stuck here is the yogurt shop murders. And in fact, at the
00:09:15
local level, it's often just referred to as yogurt shop. It's such a a depressing
00:09:22
and devastating case that that most folks in Austin just remove the word murders from it. And it's just you can
00:09:29
say yogurt shop and anybody there knows immediately what you are referencing. The new HBO docue series is also titled
00:09:38
The Yogurt Shop Murders. The docue series explores the case, its impact on the community, and the ongoing
00:09:45
investigation. The series includes interviews with family members, investigators, and others that were
00:09:52
involved in the case over the years, as well as footage from the original investigation. The series delves into
00:10:01
the complexities of memory and how it can be both a source of comfort and a trap, particularly in a case like this
00:10:09
where false confessions and misremembered details play a pivotal role and in fact a huge role in this
00:10:19
case as this is one that has drag on for many years. Like said, like we said, we
00:10:24
covered it once it hit the three decade mark. As much has been learned about this case during the course of that
00:10:32
three decades and beyond. Again, there's still so many questions about it. The the first episode here, Captain, from
00:10:39
the great folks over at HBO was titled Fire and Water, and the HBO description of this episode is in 1991,
00:10:51
the murder of four teenage girls. rocks the city of Austin, Texas. But a lack of
00:10:55
hard evidence soon thwarts the investigation. Four victims, possibly in most likely more than one killer, but
00:11:05
because of the fire and because of the firefighters trying to put out the fire, the crime scene becomes very compromised
00:11:13
and contaminated. >> Yeah. The folks over at Rotten Tomatoes give a a lengthier description
00:11:19
which will give us a bit to chew on here. So, from rottentomatoes.com, they say in 1991, the murder of 14
00:11:26
teenage girls rocks the city of Austin, Texas. Amy Ays, 13, sisters Jennifer Harbison, age 17, and Sarah Harbison,
00:11:35
15, and Eliza Thomas, 17, were at the yogurt shop where Jennifer and Eliza worked at closing time, but never
00:11:43
returned home. They were found later that night in the rubble of the store, which had been set on fire. One week
00:11:51
after the murders, 16-year-old Maurice Pierce is arrested at a local mall carrying a gun. Under questioning, he
00:11:59
implicates his friend Forest Wellborn. Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott in the crimes. As the families grieve in
00:12:09
the community comes together to find ways to heal, the police are thwarted in their investigations by the lack of hard
00:12:17
evidence. So, let's dive in a bit here. I want to start with talking about the portion of our Rotten Tomatoes
00:12:25
description that says, "One week after the murders, 16-year-old Maurice Pierce is arrested at a local mall carrying a
00:12:30
gun." >> Well, and the thing about the gun is it matches the caliber of one of the guns
00:12:35
used in the murders. >> Exactly. That's exactly correct. So, Maurice Pierce, all four of these dudes
00:12:42
are I think Detective Jones refers to them as dudes without dates. And he kind of means like guys that don't keep up so
00:12:50
much on their hygiene. They're not overly impressive guys to girls. They're kind of hanging out at malls and up to
00:12:57
no good. >> Yeah. One of the quotes is uh one of the individuals couldn't put together a
00:13:03
twocar parade. that was said about Forest Wellorn. Maurice Pierce is I hate to use the term badass, but I
00:13:13
think that's how at least how he carries himself or probably thinks of himself. Yeah. And really these four are just two
00:13:20
of them are already high school dropouts by this time. And eventually when they are arrested many, many years later, it
00:13:29
will be reported that all four of them are high school dropouts. Now, one of them went back and actually got a GED,
00:13:35
but that is sort of the state of things in 1991 and 1992 as far as their lives go. Now, one thing that I find really
00:13:47
troubling here is this, let's say, first confession because it truly is Maurice Pierce, who is exactly like this
00:14:00
description says, implicates his friends as having some kind of level of involvement in the crimes. Okay? So,
00:14:09
he's picked up. He's arrested. And when he's arrested with this gun, well, why do you have it on your person? Just to
00:14:16
be carrying it is what he says. Just to be carrying it. I wish this young man would have known at the time the
00:14:25
consequence of that statement. And as you said, Captain, it matches the caliber of gun that was used in the
00:14:31
commission of these four homicides. So, police want to know right away, how'd you get this gun? and is it the
00:14:39
gun the gun that we are looking for in this case? There were several items of hold back information
00:14:49
and a lot of that hold back information found its way to to leaking out to the public and kind of little little tidbits
00:14:58
of knowledge and information over the days, weeks, and months and years that this case lingered on. At this time, I
00:15:08
think what was regularly reported was that it was a small caliber gun was used to kill the girls. So, I don't know if
00:15:17
it was as specific as a 22, but that is what he is carrying on his person when he's picked up at the mall. Maurice
00:15:25
Pierce tells the investigators this is Sergeant Palanco. the his initial story is so different from where this thing
00:15:35
ends up several years later. And that's one of the very first items that I question and think about so much when
00:15:46
trying to dissect and examine this case because he says very simply to Palanco that we were driving around. I he says
00:15:56
where he got the gun from. I don't have it in my notes, but but that that person
00:16:01
is named. They know who that person is, who he got the gun from. I think it was just as simple as we're some teenage
00:16:09
kids. We're kind of up to no good and either he traded something or purchased the gun off of another teenager that he
00:16:16
knew and that teen that teenager had stolen the gun from his father. It's Texas. A lot of people have guns. So he
00:16:24
gets this gun and his story to Palano is well we were the night of the murders we
00:16:29
were driving around. We drove up behind the yogurt shop which is in a strip mall
00:16:36
>> plaza shopping plaza. So you have store after store after store. Behind the store there's a back door. There's a
00:16:43
back door to each one of these stores that are part of this plaza. And each one of them has its own designated
00:16:49
dumpster. Behind the plaza is a creek which will play a role in the docue series as well, but it also plays a big
00:16:57
role in this first confession or admission of having some involvement in the crime, if you will. So, Maurice
00:17:04
Pierce tells Palanco, you know, we're driving around just trying to have a good time. It's a Friday night in Texas.
00:17:10
It's getting late. We're just having a good time. My buddy Forest told me earlier that, you know, we got this 22
00:17:18
gun, 22 caliber gun. I want to do something with this gun. And that's his exact words. I I want to What do you
00:17:25
want to do tonight? I want to do something with this gun. Maurice Pierce tells Palano that he then dropped his
00:17:32
friend off, Forest Wellorn, with this gun, the 22 caliber, behind the shopping plaza. Forest went down to the creek to
00:17:43
hang out with some skin heads and later tells him that he had something to do with the murders. To clear a few things
00:17:51
up here, yes, all four of these young men are are friends. They're riding around together that night. They hung
00:17:59
out together a decent amount, but the dynamics of their friendship, Maurice Pierce and Forest Wellorn are very
00:18:06
close. They're those two are like best friends if you will at this time >> right
00:18:12
>> now. The other two men Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott >> paper company >> those two are are best friends. So when
00:18:22
you think about this forsome here kind of think of it as more as two and two. In fact, Michael Scott and and
00:18:29
Springsteen are living together at this time and and both had essentially dropped out of high school already. They
00:18:37
while it's not been official, they've both stopped going to class. In fact, I think Michael Scott or Springsteen or
00:18:44
both had at some point said that the last time they remember going to school prior to the murders, which took place
00:18:52
in early December of ' 91, was sometime in September of ' 91. So, they had not been going to school for a while. It's
00:18:59
unclear how much their parents knew of this situation. The other thing that is not presented in this first episode,
00:19:08
which again, you can examine a lot of the stuff and not know if it plays a role in it or not, but it's it's always
00:19:15
important to take in as much information and details as you possibly can and then
00:19:20
later try to figure out if it means anything to the case. But Robert Springsteen was from, I believe, from
00:19:27
Yeah, he's from West Virginia. He was only in Austin, Texas for less than a year. I believe it was a very short
00:19:36
period of time. You'll see some reports that come out and I I don't know. I don't think that this is trying to make
00:19:42
him look more guilty than he potentially is or if it's just bad information. But
00:19:49
Robert Springsteen, it's often reported early on in this case that he he moved back to West Virginia just weeks after
00:19:56
the murders, which which is true, but when I hear the words weeks, that sounds to me like two, three weeks and this
00:20:03
dude got out of Austin, Texas. Oh, why do you want to get out of there so quick? Who knows? He probably has
00:20:09
probably wants to get out of there to avoid capture identification, >> right? >> He actually moved back sometime in
00:20:16
January. There's so weeks still apply here, but he moves back to West Virginia in January, and that's reported and
00:20:26
confirmed by several different sources. In fact, sources that are closer to him than the earlier sources were reporting.
00:20:34
He and Michael Scott are living at Springsteen's dad's condo. And the way I remember this, Captain, I
00:20:43
believe they actually had two condos and the boys were living in one and the dad
00:20:48
and his girlfriend were living in the the other side by side. >> Parent of the year.
00:20:53
>> Well, there's a lot of things that go into pointing to these guys as being involved in this in these murders. And
00:21:02
one part of that will be Springsteen's father actually calls family services, the department of family services and
00:21:11
reports his son as you know not knowing where he is. That will tie them back to this case time and time again as well.
00:21:21
So, but in think about this initial statement that Pierce gives to police that he dropped off his friend Forest
00:21:30
Wellelburn with the gun. Forest then goes down to the creek. The docue series refers to these people as Creek people,
00:21:39
which which is a strange label to have. >> These individuals are supposed to be skin heads. And and so that's what's
00:21:46
confusing about this whole scenario is you go, "Okay, so if this guy had the gun and he gave it to this guy and he
00:21:53
went to hang out with skin heads, how do the four friends get tangled up in this
00:22:00
whole that they're guilty of the the crime? And where did these skin heads go?" >> Exactly. So, a couple things that happen
00:22:07
here. We we will later learn that there were two guns used in the commission of these murders. Forest is dropped off. If
00:22:14
we are to believe this, he goes down and he hangs out with these skin heads. Later, Forest will tell Maurice Pierce
00:22:21
that that we went in there and we killed them, meaning the girls, and we lit the
00:22:26
place on fire, and he says Pierce reports to Palanco that Forest told him that he liked watching the girls burn.
00:22:35
So, pretty damning stuff, right? But ultimately what takes place in 1991, mind you this is what 9 10 days after
00:22:44
the murders. Palano and then detective John Jones who I would say he's the lead on this, but this is a case that that
00:22:55
saw many different detectives and oftentimes teams of detectives working this case together.
00:23:02
>> Well, I really like John Jones's demeanor. He seems like a detective that is looking for the truth. He's not just
00:23:08
looking to close the case. He's looking for evidence. And he keeps throughout this docue series, he keeps on saying,
00:23:16
"Are these people the killer or or is this other suspect the killer? I don't know. Show me the evidence of that."
00:23:24
Yeah. He's a very evidenced driven detective. What's interesting to me here is the docue series kind of cites that
00:23:31
Pierce told Palanco one version of the story and told Detective Jones a completely different version that has no
00:23:39
involvement at all. HBO presents it as that is why they moved on from this theory, this possibility, this potential
00:23:48
suspect or suspects. And what we have in this other detective, Hector Palanco, is
00:23:54
he's a pretty scary looking dude with a porn star mustache. just seeing a picture of the guy or seeing video of
00:24:04
the guy, he doesn't really present himself too much in this documentary because he was eventually kicked off
00:24:11
this case because they were convinced that he was I don't know how you would want to frame this, but in my mind, if
00:24:18
I'm his superior, I'm looking at Hector going, "Well, that's great that you can get confessions, but you seem to be too
00:24:27
good at getting confessions." Well, and speaking of superiors, he's he's a detective sergeant rank at this time.
00:24:35
So, he's a higher ranking detective, and he's actually Jones's superior at this time, and and the superior officer to
00:24:43
many of the detectives in that bureau. Now, of course, he's got bosses and bosses above
00:24:51
them and bosses above them as well. Um, so he does have folks that he has to answer to, but to put it short and sweet
00:24:58
without having to get into the details too much, he was able to pull false confessions out of many different people
00:25:06
that I'm trying to figure out the most proper way to present this and to say this
00:25:14
because I know for a fact and there's been evidence to show this, at least in one situation, he manufactured actured
00:25:24
confessions and sent persons to prison. I be I believe both of them were sentenced to life in prison and then
00:25:31
later it was determined that those confessions were manufactured by him by Hector Blanco and that was proven by
00:25:42
another confession and by DNA evidence. So you can't argue against that too much. As far as some other cases, I know
00:25:50
that other cases were cited throughout time. Keep in mind, I've been reviewing this
00:25:57
case on and off again periodically since 2017. So, there were other cases that people
00:26:06
have suggested. I don't know if they were proven that he manufactured confessions during those, but the
00:26:13
general statement that's provided here in the docue series was Detective Palano could get a confession out of an
00:26:21
innocent person. And because he couldn't get a great confession from Maurice Pierce, well then Pierce has got to be
00:26:29
innocent. And so that it's kind of presented that they move on from Pierce and from Forest regarding that. But the
00:26:36
truth here, Captain, is they actually move on from Maurice Pierce and Forest Welbborne because they mike up Maurice
00:26:47
Pierce and they send him to go talk to his best friend, Forest Well. And they and they say, "Get it on tape, man. Get
00:26:55
it on tape." And he's asking him, he's probing him question after question after question to Forest about the case.
00:27:03
Hey, remember the other night you said you killed those girls? you lit him on fire and the best that they get from
00:27:09
Force is he's like, "Yeah, you know, I was joking about that." Yeah, you you have obviously know that I was joking
00:27:15
about that. >> Yeah. He says, "I'm playing around." And and then his friend says, "Well, that's
00:27:21
not something you should really play around about." And he's like, "Yeah, but you know, I'm playing around. You know
00:27:26
this." And then he goes, "I couldn't have done these murders because I was with you."
00:27:31
>> Yep. I was with you. And then the two of them go into a recorded argument that
00:27:38
night about who is more scared or sad or angry about the murders or being accused
00:27:44
of it. That is primarily why they move on from these two because it sounds like once they put in the investigative
00:27:53
effort and resources and the time that when they review this recorded conversation when no police or
00:28:02
detectives are present between Maurice and Forest, there's nothing to work with there. In fact, it appears that Maurice
00:28:10
probably just told Palano something that he thought that Palano wanted to hear. And when he sits down with Detective
00:28:17
Jones and gives a written statement, that statement is completely different. [Music]
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[Music] All right, we are back. Talks in the air. Cheers, mates. This beverage is
00:34:40
strong, my friend. >> It's from Super Bad and it's super good. Cheers to everybody.
00:34:45
Yeah, but here's one of the things, like I said, I think this is a very important
00:34:51
documentary. I think if you are a armchair detective, I think if you are fascinated with true crime, if you're a
00:34:59
true crime addict like we are, I think you learn a lot about not just the investigations, but the demeanor of
00:35:06
different individuals. And like I said, I think Detective Jones is going, I I'm trying to find the truth. Detective
00:35:13
Palanco to me is a guy that wants to win. Doesn't matter if I get the right guy as long as if as long as I get a guy
00:35:21
for the crime. So they wire up Maurice and they don't get essentially a confession, but we have this confession
00:35:29
that he kind of gave to Palanco. But what I hate in all these stories, and I've been saying it for 10 freaking
00:35:36
years, is I hate narratives that are [ __ ] that are horseshit. my friend. And one of the things in this case when
00:35:45
you're looking at it and you go, "Well, here's these four individuals that were accused and and later we get a
00:35:52
confession that people say is a false confession." Some people will look at this case and go, "They had a false
00:35:58
confession and that's all they had." No, that's not true. And I'm not saying that
00:36:04
these guys are guilty, but what I'm saying is the narrative is horshit. You have one within a couple weeks of the
00:36:11
murder, this guy walking around with a loaded gun at a mall. That's kind of weird. That's kind of bizarre. The day
00:36:17
after the murders, these individuals stole a car and drove to San Antonio when they are talked to by law
00:36:26
enforcement. And if you talk to their family and friends and everybody, these guys, and we all know these types of
00:36:33
guys, these guys that got out of school or didn't finish school, they didn't know what the heck to do with their
00:36:41
lives. They didn't know where they fit into the world. Now, that doesn't mean that they killed these four girls and
00:36:49
lit the place on fire, but I think when you're looking into these cases, we can't have these horseshit narratives of
00:36:57
just, well, they had this confession and that's all they had. There's more to it.
00:37:02
And and you you see that with other cases. You see that with the West Memphis 3. You see that now with the
00:37:09
Deli murders, people saying all you have is this confession. That's not all you have. We have you have to build up these
00:37:17
little piles of evidence and I think there is some evidence against these four in this case. Now, does that mean
00:37:25
that they that they're responsible? No. But to say that there's no evidence at all other than a false confession, I
00:37:33
think is nonsense. >> I don't mean to challenge you on this and I agree absolutely in other cases
00:37:37
that is exactly the situation. But here I I fail to see where there is any evidence beyond the the confessions.
00:37:47
>> Okay. So, do you think having a a gun the same caliber within a couple miles of the crime within a couple weeks of
00:37:56
the crime is is nothing? >> No, I think it's absolutely something. And I think that that it is something
00:38:02
that is worth investigating. And then they did investigate it and nothing came of it. What I mean by that is it's
00:38:09
something. It's absolutely something. You're 100% spot on with that. But you investigate it and you investigate it.
00:38:16
And when they moved on from it, they move on from it because it turns out that that lead never developed into
00:38:25
evidence. It was simply a lead, but it wasn't evidence. I I agree and kind of disagree because I also think that lead
00:38:35
also leads you to whether or not initially they confess to the crime, they end up putting themselves in the
00:38:44
vicinity of the crime the day of the murders. They're also within a 24-hour window of a mass murder, they're
00:38:53
stealing a car and driving to another town. And I just think this has you just have to pile this up.
00:39:00
>> But then returning back to Austin the very next morning, you know, they're not
00:39:04
they're not leaving to go to San Antonio and and stay gone. They're they're just
00:39:09
going to try to hang out with some friends, >> right? But if I'm a detective, I'm not
00:39:14
I'm not viewing it so much that they didn't I'm not viewing it as they stole a car and they went on the run. I'm
00:39:21
going, but these guys stole a car. This is criminal activity. So, you have a gun. Now, what makes no sense to me, and
00:39:30
I don't know why the documentary doesn't explore this, but you have the gun. Can't you do some ballistic test on this
00:39:38
gun? >> Well, see, that's where I'm saying the lead never developed into evidence
00:39:42
because they actually did. They ran ballistics on it twice and both times it came up negative. No match. And I think
00:39:48
the other problem with this case and and so many other cases, I mean, the Deli case is so frustrating because it's a
00:39:56
crime that happened outside and part of the crime possibly happened within water. The the West Memphis 3 case, a
00:40:06
crime that again outside and the victims were found in water. and the yogurt shop
00:40:12
murder case, you have fire and water that destroys so much evidence. And I did think one of the most fascinating
00:40:20
things, again, like I said, and somebody's going to go, "Enough with this already, Captain. You keep telling
00:40:26
us it's important." I thought it was really important to go, it's it's 91 and DNA is not much of a thing. But they
00:40:34
basically the detectives on the scene had to basically fight to say, "Hey, hey, we got to try to collect this
00:40:41
evidence before you take the bodies." If they would have took those bodies without letting them collect that
00:40:46
evidence, we'd have almost nothing in this case. >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that was
00:40:52
fantastic. That was great police work by them back then in 1991. There was I'm not going to say that this was a perfect
00:40:59
investigation. Look, there are perfect investigations out there that don't lead to somebody behind bars. Just because
00:41:06
something doesn't get solved doesn't mean that it wasn't handled correctly and worked to perfection. While they did
00:41:13
that and that was really important to the case and how the investigation will morph and advance and devolve throughout
00:41:22
time that the DNA collecting was incredibly important. They they were working against all kinds of obstacles.
00:41:32
Fire and water. The the first episode appropriately titled fire and water. And I make I want to make sure we dive into
00:41:39
that. Let's get into the fire part of it here. >> Yeah. Can you explain to me how the fire
00:41:47
was started? >> I'm going to do my very best. Okay. One thing that I hate is fire science
00:41:53
because I've seen it presented many different ways over the course of many different cases and sometimes many
00:42:00
different ways within the in one case itself. When we say fire science, I don't look at it so much of a science.
00:42:09
But I also think that people over complicate trying to figure out fire. And I think if you break it down to its
00:42:18
most simplest of forms, you will have your answers. So the episode's titled Fire and Water. Let's start with fire.
00:42:28
Okay, this is from a October 1999 Austin American Statesman article. And I'm just going to pull a couple of
00:42:37
pieces here from it. So, there's a senior firearm examiner from the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation
00:42:46
who is quoted a few times in this article as well as several other investigators. And here's what they have
00:42:52
to say. The fire was only the first threat to evidence in the yogurt shop. Quote, "Then when the fire people came,
00:43:01
they got out the hoses and washed everything away." This is from an expert. His last name is Beardo. And he
00:43:08
goes on to say, "By the time they found the bodies, they were in several inches of water. When firefighters responded,
00:43:15
one of their first goals is to douse the fire, not to save evidence. And in doing
00:43:20
so, they can move bodies and disrupt evidence such as fingerprints, bits of hair, pieces of clothing, and blood. And
00:43:28
this is according to the state fire marshal." >> Yeah. Not to be gross, but also seammen.
00:43:35
So they go on to say, "Your evidence can even run out the front door with the hose stream." Now, when the firefighters
00:43:43
arrive on the scene, they check the front door before they pry it open or bust through. And when they check the
00:43:52
front door, the door is locked. Okay? And so now we got to put out this fire. The back door to this to this business
00:43:58
is not locked. It's found unlocked. They go on to say in this article, "It's just
00:44:03
the risk we have to take." Meaning, when we show up, our job is to put out the fire. It can destroy evidence. And keep
00:44:10
in mind, when they responded, they were responding to a fire, not to a quadruple
00:44:14
homicide. They don't know that there's a body in there until the firefighters are
00:44:21
in there working. When one of them spots a foot and then later, they spot a piece
00:44:28
a portion of another body. And that's when one then one of the firefighters say, "Look, we got to we need to stop
00:44:35
here. Uh there's something wrong with this scene. There's something wrong here. We need we need to stop. We're
00:44:42
we're destroying evidence." One thing that is often and regularly left out of this story, which aggravates me to no
00:44:49
end, is a very I think it's a very important detail. >> Yeah. >> When the firefighters opened up the back
00:44:54
door to start to go in before they had hosed anything, >> right? Do you know what they were met
00:45:00
with? Not just fire. They hadn't seen the body. They don't see the body still. They're inside. But opening up that back
00:45:06
door, do you know what they're met with? Not just smoke and flame. Water. They were met with water. There was already
00:45:13
water damaging that crime scene before the firefighters damaged it further with the water. The flames were so hot. the
00:45:21
the fire was so intensely hot that it caused a PVC pipe to burst and so you just had flowing water. They they said
00:45:32
when they opened up the door, water came rushing out. They speculate that it could have been as much as 1 in to 2 or
00:45:40
3 in of water that was already covering that back portion of the store before they even got there. You have the PVC
00:45:47
pipe water destroying the crime scene. You have the fire destroying the crime scene and then you have the fire
00:45:52
department just doing their jobs further destroying the the crime scene and evidence.
00:45:58
>> I think one of the things that was so powerful in this documentary is the 24year-old I think she was the manager
00:46:06
and she had to go identify the bodies. >> Mhm. And I was telling you earlier, I I really like broke down
00:46:19
multiple times watching this docue series. And when she says that she knew it was better that she identifies the
00:46:29
victims than to have family members have to do it, she says victims didn't have faces. where you burn the fastest is
00:46:39
where the skin is the tightest on the body. And unfortunately, if you I mean, you can just like kind of pinch around
00:46:46
on at parts of of your body. And guess where it's really hard to pinch is your forehead. So often times you will find
00:46:54
at these scenes that when a person is burned up, and there's no polite way of saying it, but that's what happened
00:47:02
here. Three of the victims were were incredibly burned up. Uh it's it really it really starts to you really start to
00:47:11
burn up quickly at your forehead cuz there's not a whole lot to grab onto there. And another part is like the
00:47:17
center of your chest, especially for for males. And then maybe like the the bottoms of your feet. So you can
00:47:24
>> Well, my love handles would last through probably two or three fires, >> probably weeks of of a forest fire. we
00:47:30
would just find your honches. >> Yeah, you just >> there's no body, just honches.
00:47:36
>> To expand on some of that, I go back to this article where they say, quote, "Your evidence may even run out the
00:47:44
front door with your hose stream." That according to the Travis County Fire Marshal, which Travis County is where
00:47:51
Austin is located. Quote, "It's just a risk we have to take." The article goes on to say, "Still experts said said
00:47:58
clues will survive even the worst fire where temperatures reach 1500° or more. Quote, "Does a fire completely
00:48:06
obliterate everything?" "No," says Jerry Niles, the vice president of the International Association of Arson
00:48:13
Investigators. Quote, "There is always something there. It just may take a lot of hard work and a lot of time to dig it
00:48:20
out." But another part that's interesting here too, Captain, is while we when we hear about the fire and even
00:48:27
when you see it on the HBO documentary, I think oftentimes our imaginations can start to run wild, we have to go back to
00:48:34
what they were saying in 1991. The officials responding to the scene in 1991 said that although three of the
00:48:42
girls were burned beyond recognition, the fire was relatively minor and was quickly extinguished. which is bizarre.
00:48:49
Which makes me think that there was some kind of accelerant placed on the victims.
00:48:55
>> Yes. And I think that's where most people's minds would go, >> right? >> But >> but you're telling me I'm wrong.
00:49:03
>> Yes. So the thing here is it goes back to how things burn. We are organic matter and everything burns differently
00:49:11
and at different temperatures and it takes different lengths of time for things to to burn up. In fact, like you
00:49:19
see in the crime scene photos, you you see things that have completely burned up. You see some items that have melted.
00:49:26
A human body won't melt. We will get burned up. We will char. And in fact, our bones actually never really burn up.
00:49:34
they just they just really start to break down and disintegrate and break into smaller and smaller pieces. The
00:49:40
responding officer saying that the fire was relatively minor and quickly extinguished makes sense when you if you
00:49:46
have that in mind when you're looking at those crime scene photos because what you see is there was was little to no
00:49:54
fire in the front of the house of this business. Very little fire that made its way to the front of the house. And can I
00:50:02
talk about this layout just a little bit? >> Yeah. >> Because again, we've covered this for
00:50:08
hours. >> In the docu series, they talk about how they have the four victims pictures up
00:50:15
in the police department and they actually have um a model >> of the yogurt shop in the police
00:50:22
department. I know that we have talked extensively about the layout and I've seen pictures before, but there was
00:50:31
maybe a 10-second clip where they show the inside. And what's shocking to me is when you think of a ice cream place,
00:50:40
even like a fro yo, there's the counter, you got the little glass thing, you got
00:50:45
the toppings, you normally have the ice cream where people scoop. Obviously, this is not ice cream. Can't believe
00:50:51
it's not ice cream. Can't believe it's yogurt. One of the worst names ever. Not even a good logo. But to me, this looks
00:51:00
like almost a like a DMV or a a bank where you have this wall that's separating the employees from the
00:51:12
customers. and you have tables and chairs and all that, but you have this and it's just like a wood panel wall
00:51:18
with these I'm guessing they're glass, but these two little glass windows. And so I I I don't know exactly what the
00:51:27
importance of all this, but obviously law enforcement thinks that the layout is somewhat important. And I don't know if
00:51:35
the lock front door and the unlocked back door really implies anything other than maybe the killers left through the
00:51:42
back. I don't think just in and tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the lock
00:51:48
front door tells me anything about how they entered. And we do have some eyewitnesses that see some individuals
00:51:56
cuz we have customers. So, we have those eyewitnesses. And then there's it's a it's the other problem too is it's a
00:52:03
strip mall. What do teenagers do on a Friday night? You might just hang out by the strip mall. But what you also do on
00:52:10
a Friday night when you're a teenager, you go visit your other teenage friends working at public locations like a
00:52:17
yogurt shop where you might not be a customer, but you might just swing in to say hi cuz you're bored and you're
00:52:23
driving around town. Well, the back of the house for the ICBY contained bathrooms, stock room, and the
00:52:34
office for the business. Oftent times when this case is reported, Amy was found away from the other three victims.
00:52:43
And it's often said in a way that I think implies that she's this great distance from the other three victims.
00:52:50
Remember, the three were very burned up. Amy, not so much. Yes, it tells us a part of the story that we need to learn
00:52:58
more about. Why is her body positioned here and found here away from the other three victims? When we look at something
00:53:06
and say, "Oh, well, the the other three victims were stacked on one another. What's the significance of that?" I say,
00:53:13
"Who cares?" You some of this stuff you have to move on and move past, right? because you collect as much information
00:53:21
as you can and then you see where it may factor into what actually happened. What
00:53:26
was what did the fire expert say when he was talking about our first job is to put out the fire and then we figure out
00:53:33
what happened. He said how pressurized that pressurized water powerful water coming out of those fire hoses can even
00:53:43
move bodies. Not just destroy evidence, move evidence, but it can even move bodies. So, what I think we have to look
00:53:49
at here is we can say that there's evidence to back up the idea that Amy was here and died here and the other
00:53:56
three died over here. I think that's absolutely factual based off of the fire damage that was done. What what I say we
00:54:05
have to move on from and not put much weight into at all was the stacking of the bodies because it's not absurd to
00:54:12
think that the fire hose may have rolled one of those bodies on top of the other.
00:54:17
So you have to look at what was going on before the fire hoses started disrupting
00:54:21
your scene. What was going on was a fire, >> right? >> Okay. And you had asked, well, where did
00:54:27
the fire start? Did did they did they set the girls on fire? We're organic matter. And think about what we are made
00:54:34
up of. We're mostly made up of water. So while the general public doesn't think of it this way, we're a person is very
00:54:42
hard to burn up. >> Well, I'm 65% coffee and another 35% jelly donuts. And that's one thing that
00:54:51
I think that they got wrong here because the average Joe and we actually see this
00:54:56
with Michael Scott when he is being interrogated and he starts to break down and he starts to lose his mind. What
00:55:02
does he say? He goes, "Where did the fire start, Michael? Where did the fire start?" You know, I lit them on fire.
00:55:08
No, you didn't. I I don't believe that the fire started on top of the girls. I do believe the fire was absolutely set
00:55:15
to destroy evidence, but I but it was clearly to me set on the the portion of the stock room that had all of the the
00:55:26
items that they would need to restock. And the a lot of these items are paper items, too.
00:55:30
>> Yeah. >> And so if I'm at a scene and I know what I'm doing, I'm like I'm putting my
00:55:36
accelerant and my flame on that shelf. And so what we see here with the fire, those shelves were melted.
00:55:45
>> The shelves that were holding paper products. >> Yeah, those are stainless steel shelves.
00:55:51
If if we learn nothing more about this case than this detail here, this is one thing that we need to walk away from
00:55:59
this episode with the general understanding. And a lot of this is pretty obvious stuff, but in the chaos
00:56:06
of the scene, you don't take it in as a viewer or as a reader or as a listener. Sometimes things have to be laid out,
00:56:14
even if they're obvious. But stainless steel melts at a temperature range between 2,500°
00:56:22
F and 2,800° F. >> Jesus. human bone during the cremation process, they only used temperatures of
00:56:33
1,400 to,800 degrees Fahrenheit. So for those stainless steel shelves to melt, that fire was at the very least, and
00:56:43
this is a conser, this is very conservative, at the very least 1,000° hotter than what it would take to use in
00:56:51
the cremation process. The fire wasn't set on the three victims. It just means they were so much closer to the fire.
00:56:59
And then to back up the statement of the fire was relatively minor and extinguished rather quickly, let's go
00:57:05
back to the distance between the victim that wasn't burned up and the three that
00:57:10
were unrecognizably burned up beyond recognition is what they say. The fact of the matter is
00:57:16
she's only like four or 5t from the other victims. So that would make sense that the fire was relatively contained
00:57:24
to a very specific area and portion of this store before it was extinguished by the firefighters.
00:57:32
>> But tell me if >> they tried to start the fire on those girls. Sorry. And there's again I need
00:57:38
to quit apologizing but I can't help but picture the girls and think of their families when saying these horrible
00:57:44
things that we have to say sometimes. But if the fire was if they attempted to start the fire on the girls, either they
00:57:49
moved on and set the fire elsewhere very quickly and learned that that's not going to work. Remember, they're not
00:57:54
wearing any clothing at this time. The clothing is going to be what would burn up and help to start the fire on the
00:57:59
girls. They would have been there all night trying to burn that building all night. They the police would have
00:58:05
arrived on scene and found the perpetrator still in the back of the building trying to get some fire going
00:58:11
if they would have just stuck to that. >> That's one of the things I find odd though. Okay, I'm going to start this
00:58:16
fire to destroy evidence, but the victims don't have their clothes on. You would think if you were trying to just
00:58:26
burn the victims that you would want them to have their clothes on cuz we know the clothes will catch fire. I'm
00:58:31
glad that you pointed that out because in the docue series there's a filmmaker and I'm sorry I don't have her name but
00:58:37
they use a lot of her footage because she was planning on making a a documentary about false confessions I
00:58:44
believe >> and using the yogurt shop murders as the subject or the case subject. And during
00:58:53
the filming, she's showing some video footage that she has and she has one of the victim's mothers. And the first
00:58:59
question she asks of the victim's mother is, "So tell me about how your daughter
00:59:07
died." And she shuts off the cuz she's playing on her laptop or whatever and she shuts it off really quickly and and
00:59:13
she's kind of disgusted with herself. But this this docue series made me question
00:59:22
what the heck am I doing with my life? Because sometimes we say stuff that like I know what we're trying to do. I know
00:59:29
that we're trying to put out information about cases and hopefully that leads to
00:59:35
solving the cases or at least keeping these stories. This this shit's important. when you hear that manager
00:59:42
say, "I knew that I had to identify these victims so the family members didn't have to." And so whatever those
00:59:50
girls went through, it's important that this [ __ ] gets solved. I'm glad that you
00:59:55
said that cuz there's sometimes that we're recording and talking about stuff and I sometimes I feel like a big
01:00:02
[ __ ] and then sometimes I feel like a [ __ ] for saying something that's kind of silly or whatever, but it's like
01:00:08
I'm I'm only doing it for my own mental health and maybe some of the mental health of the people out there listening
01:00:14
to this stuff. Well, the very best detectives in my humble garage opinion out there that I've studied over the
01:00:20
years will they they all kind of echo the same general statement of our number one job as a detective is to try to walk
01:00:30
in the shoes of the victim. So, when we're presenting these cases, once we flip on the microphone sitting here in
01:00:36
the garage, the thing I keep in the back of my mind, I try to I just visualize the victim looking over my shoulder the
01:00:42
entire time. And when I'm up against it and I'm conflicted on should I say something or not, I look to the victim
01:00:49
and and a lot of times I think they're telling me no, say it. Especially in these unsolved cases because just like
01:00:55
you said, what can this tell us about? We have to learn as much as we can about the details of the crime because one of
01:01:02
those details or many of those details, whatever, could lead us to the person responsible or tell us something about
01:01:09
the person or persons who did this. >> Right? These girls were burned far more severely than thirdderee burns. But to
01:01:16
put things in perspective here, thirdderee burns on skin and tissue. It is typically
01:01:25
at just 165° F. And so I just keep going back to the the idea that it all that tells us is
01:01:33
that they were much they were closer to the fire than the other victim. They were burned up significantly more, but
01:01:40
that distance was only four or 5 ft. And so that does back up that whole statement of the fire was relatively
01:01:46
minor. It was easily extinguished because it was somewhat contained. It hadn't taken off yet. The PVC pipe
01:01:55
itself, while it can, you know, start to melt at a lower temperature than this, but the ignition temperature for PVC
01:02:03
pipe is around 730° F. So, without having pictures to explain this to me, because we only get
01:02:14
to see a couple of the pictures of the crime scene, this tells me, and we know anybody that that has walked inside of a
01:02:21
home or building can can knows this, the PVZ pipe was probably located very close
01:02:27
to that shelf, that shelving unit. The shelving unit's set on fire and the the most intensive the most intense portion
01:02:36
of that fire is on that shelving unit that is melting the shelves themselves and then the the offshoots and cast of
01:02:44
that. The closest one would be the PVC pipe that then burst and shot water down there. Then the three victims are a
01:02:52
little bit further away than that. And then the fourth victim is even further away, but only four or five feet. I want
01:02:59
to make sure, too, that we talk about. So, let's talk guns and bullets here. All four victims had been shot in the
01:03:07
head with a 22 caliber gun. As we said previously, the gun that is pulled off of Maurice Pierce at the shopping mall
01:03:14
is later run through for ballistics twice, both times, comes up as not a match. There are complications
01:03:24
with the evidence which I I think could point you in any kind of different direction or it also could just make you
01:03:33
question everything. But let's also keep in mind Amy Ays was actually shot by a second gun. So all four victims shot
01:03:40
with a 22 caliber but the the one victim that's found further than the others was
01:03:44
shot with a second gun. So, a 22 caliber and a 380 pistol were both used to commit the murders. The condition of the
01:03:54
bullets. As regarding the condition of the bullets, firearms experts say many factors, including the intense heat of a
01:04:01
fire, could make it impossible to match a slug to a gun. One such expert quoted as saying, "In my experience, shots to
01:04:09
the head with a 22 bullet are going to distort a lot." That's all fair statements. Let's we can circle back to
01:04:18
that. As far as the 380 pistol goes, a shell casing was found at the scene. Where did they find that? In a drain.
01:04:26
So, either the the fire hose water or the PVC pipe water moved that shell casing to a drain. The gun itself was
01:04:35
never actually ever located. So, there's a good chance here that with this 22, you run the test twice and it doesn't
01:04:43
ever match up. and the 380 never being found that they've never found either murder weapon.
01:04:51
>> Right. >> Regarding the 380 pistol, this is where they flubbed up the investigation early
01:04:57
on. When I'm told that Forest is dropped off with the 22 and he goes down to the
01:05:03
creek to that's right behind the murder scene to hang out with the skin heads and then later tells his buddy that me
01:05:10
and some of the skin heads killed him and burned up the shop. You better be down there looking for that pistol and
01:05:17
that 22. The obvious place to discard them if you wanted to get rid of them quick would be in that creek. Now, if
01:05:24
you're not down there searching right away, well, you're up against it because I think it was 2 weeks later, this whole
01:05:29
area flooded that month, December of 1991, Austin, Texas. And this may not be true
01:05:38
to date, but it was true to the time periods in 1991 received more rain in that month than it
01:05:47
had ever than it ever in the history of that city. 14 inches of rain in that month is what I believe the reports
01:05:54
were, which is crazy.