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[Music] [Applause] thank you welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that rightfully so describes himself as a
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young bearded Rockefeller he is the captain cause I'm getting money like a bank teller it's good to be seen and
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it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend [Music] tonight we are drinking pallet jack by
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enough of the business everybody gather around grab a chair be a dork be a geek let's talk some true
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crime [Music] [Music] as we sit here today Captain young Kyron Horman he has been missing for seven
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years he's been missing since that last day that he was seen at his school on a Friday June 4th 2010 last spotted by his
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stepmother who said that she saw him walking to his classroom he's reported missing and now we're left here Captain
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wondering what happened to this little boy really when you when you narrow it down there are three options right we
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have option A Kyron the little boy left left the school on his own wandered off somewhere there was yeah eight access
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points in and out of this school building he was spotted near one of those at the around the last time that
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he was seen um we also have option b that he was taken by a total stranger and option C
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that somebody within his inner circle is responsible for why he disappeared well
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the search effort was huge yeah and it happened quickly and so it seems like option A doesn't make a lot of sense I
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think we would have found him by now and even if he left the school an accident happened I think we would have found his
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body by now yeah because we have a situation like you said very quickly after he went missing within seven or
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eight hours the searches the Searchers are out and the initial search lasted over 10 days and was regarded as one of
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the largest in the state's history with more than thirteen hundred people from Oregon Washington and Northern
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California looking for the boy they checked a two mile radius around the skyline school that he attended and also
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parts of Savi Island we both agree that theory a with Chiron just leaving doesn't make a lot of sense but Theory B
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somebody grabbing him could be a good possibility yeah well and we have this situation here Captain which it
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sucks I mean to sum it up in in to one big word it sucks because what's going on that day it's a very
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very busy day at that school uh regarded by most the teachers as the busiest day
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of their school year yeah it's their science fair in the morning and then we have a talent show in the afternoon and
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guess what if you are some terrible person and you're looking to grab a kid well there's a big sign out in front of
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the school that says on this date we're having a science fair from this hour to this hour and we're having a talent show
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from this hour to this hour the school is basically open somewhat open to the public I mean they're not expecting
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random people to just walk in the school but they have the school open at this time open early so that parents and
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students can tour the science fair yeah and I'd argue that maybe it's not some random person because yeah they're
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they're advertising that there's a science fair but you don't know how heavily chaperone this is going to be
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but yeah it is up open to the public the other thing too is if you had any information about the students and about
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the school you'd also know that the school wasn't under surveillance so that gives you a opportune window yes and the
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thing here is though while this is a possible scenario it seems it does seem a little unlikely to me and and I'll
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tell you why okay he's he's seven we have a seven-year-old boy we have no evidence leading us down this road we
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have nobody saying you know I saw Chiron with some strange person or I or he was
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heard yelling and screaming because somebody grabbed him and pulled them into his vehicle yeah you would think
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that this would be a safe place for Chiron so if somebody did grab him that he would feel safe enough to be able to
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scream for help so the likelihood that there's all these eyewitnesses that didn't see Kyron leaving with some
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strange person it's kind of weird yeah and I and I know there's people out there listening that are going you know
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he's only seven and yes we've covered cases before and so it is a possibility that he could have been Lord to
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somebody's vehicle that he got into the vehicle willingly he is only seven um that is somewhat of a possibility but
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I think the obvious possibility and most likely possibility here and it seemed to
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be what the police really honed in on early into the investigation and searched for Chiron is it somebody
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within his inner circle was involved in this disappearance along with all these allegations and weird speculations about
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the stepmother it's kind of clear that we need to dive into her as a possible suspect I agree and I think we'll what
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we should do is just kind of point out the different suspicious behaviors along the way and kind of dive into those as
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they as we go through our list here now just to be clear she has never been named a suspect but she has never been
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cleared as well correct so as we said the police became suspicious when they searched uh Terry horman's cellular
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phone records and it was revealed that she wasn't where she said she was the morning that Chiron disappeared this is
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what led to the whole Savvy Island thing which is about five six miles from Kyron
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school this led to a massive search of the island for the missing boy but again no trace of Chiron and with this piece
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of evidence it made me wonder was it just a area that you would drive onto and you wouldn't know but our listeners
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have reached down and said hey if you know that area and you know Savvy Island that once you're on it you know you're
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on the island yeah yeah and just to be clear it's a River Island but it is a rather large uh piece of land but like
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you said and like we speculated in episode one it would be tough to end up on an island accidentally and not be
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able to recall that you were there now Terry's statements the Stepmom statements to police indicate that after
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leaving the school at 8 45 a.m the day that Kyron went missing she ran errands at a local grocery store this is the
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Fred Meyer store until about 10 10 a.m and then from 10 10 a.m to 11 39 a.m she states that she drove her daughter
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around town in in an attempt to use the motion of the vehicle to soothe the toddler's ear earache Terry then went to
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a local gym at approximately 11 39 a.m and she says that she worked out that day until about 12 40 p.m by 1 21 she
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had arrived home some other information that we kind of asked for from you guys was is it odd to drive a kid around that
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long it's kind of half and half some people said Ah that's not that long especially if the kid is sick maybe you
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drive around longer and then the other half would say that is way too long so where was was she driving around we're
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not really for sure but what is odd about this and what so many listeners pointed out was your kid is sick you
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drive your kid around for an hour and a half and then you decide to take the kid
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to the gym with you right it seems like your if your kid is that sick that you're skipping the gym and just heading
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home yeah so I I love that response that we got from the listeners because that's
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a very big question Mark you don't drive that kid around for an hour and a half and then put her in the the daycare
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center at the gym to be amongst other kids if this kid was so uncomfortable and so sick and you were truly worried
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trying to soothe this sick child you're taking that child home after you after you get her to fall asleep or like other
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listeners pointed out you would continue driving around so the child would sleep
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as long as possible this office obviously Captain leaves us with quite a window of time where something could
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have happened where she could have been not where she said she was and then there's also a little dispute about
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actually how long she was at the gym we know that she was at the gym at 11 39 because she has to check in the problem
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is we have other people saying I did see her at the gym but I don't I don't remember seeing her for an hour I don't
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remember seeing her afternoon where she says that she was there until 12 40 p.m this is an another window of time where
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something could have happened yeah it's weird with the eyewitness accounts of her being at the grocery store and the
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eyewitness accounts of saying that she was at the gym again makes me wonder is she trying to establish a alibi
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well and I'll tell you what here Captain I think for this one if you want to keep
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score at home or you're keeping score in your garage regarding Terry's involvement in kyron's disappearance I
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think for the for this portion for her whereabouts and what she was actually doing that day
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look I I I have to believe that this points a little more towards the end of she was involved in this I can't I can't
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give her a check mark for nope this clears her you know nope she wasn't involved I I'm I'm not ready to finalize
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that pencil Mark yet but I think it leans in the direction of her question will be questionable behavior and me
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questioning where she actually was that day yeah I agree the second item that I wanted to get to
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is that she was interrogated by detectives um and we know that she was questioned
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several times uh for several hours they were also looking for physical evidence of Foul Play in the vehicle that she was
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driving that day remember she was driving Kane's truck uh when she dropped Chiron off at school
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um a lot of people would say that this points to her being suspicious and to be being guilty of something the problem
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here is um they found nothing incriminating after all those searches and all those
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times questioning her yeah which would point in her favor yeah let's give her a check mark and her favor there then
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third we have she reportedly took and failed two polygraph tests right and then she denied a third one yeah this
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does not look good for her at all in my opinion we heard her defend herself stating that she could not hear the
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person very well that was administering the test she then said that the second test she failed because it seemed like
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they were rushing her through the test that that they didn't conduct it properly but then you have a third time
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where she just all out refuses to take the test this is certainly a check mark against Terry Horman yeah I agree for
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the most part but again I don't know the extent of our hearing issue and we've we've heard from experts that if you
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have a hearing problem this could really affect the results of a polygraph test so again I you know but it's hard to
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believe what she says because she is a known liar she is a known cheater and uh I don't agree with those things this to
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me and I agree with you captain and that expert is right but this points to me as
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the first signs obvious signs that's told to the public of her not cooperating in the investigation and you
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know I'm always very suspicious and I think we all should be of anybody that's not cooperating in an investigation yeah
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I agree again not fully because yes I think you should cooperate with law enforcement I think you should tell them
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any information that you know but there's a difference between them asking you questions and then them Throwing
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Shade your way and I think if they're doing so I mean it's the smartest move lawyer up
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um that doesn't mean it doesn't mean that you can't cooperate that doesn't mean that you can't talk with law
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enforcement but you're going to do so in the presence of of your because you're going to be able to tell your story to
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your lawyer and based on what you tell your lawyer they're going to know what they can what you should share with law
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enforcement well and then here's the big one here's the big marker right here everybody the big turtle yeah we got a
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giant red neon arrow pointing to this situation so 22 days after kyron's disappearance detectives told Kane
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Horman chiron's father that his wife Terry about five months before Chiron went missing had asked a landscaper
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named Rodolfo Sanchez to kill her husband so you picturing this situation thank you Mr Sanchez for coming out to
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my property today I would like for you to Edge the flower beds cut the grass and roll my husband up in this rug and
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dump him in a landfill and then Kane was like we have landscaper yeah so I don't know this is the this is the
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piece of evidence like if somebody said to me right now like I can have a question answered I mean obviously the
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you know where is Chiron that would be the main question but if I couldn't have that answered and I just needed to have
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a few things answered to lead me to the truth this would be the one yeah this is
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the one because and you actually brought it up and I don't like to admit when you do smart things okay but
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it was something I didn't think about at all and as we've dove into it seems like
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hundreds of cases now that you know it's something that you would think that I would have learned through time
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but this is a big key people throw this girl under the bus all the time and yeah
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she has done some shady things morally but this is the one where they go if she's capable
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of trying to hire somebody to murder her husband then she's capable of kidnapping
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and possibly murdering her stepson or hiring somebody to do it so but here's the problem that I have with
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it and I never would have thought of it unless you came up with the idea was the
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cops do not tell Kane about this until after the guy goes missing right so then when did the landscaper report this to
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the cops did he report it to him five months ago or did he see something on the news and said oh my God this kid
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went missing that's the lady that tried to hire me to kill her husband right and
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I'm glad you opened up that door because we did speak about this and we've touched upon this in the previous
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episodes there's so many different versions of this story out there that it's very
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confusing and the best that I can nail it down I've thrown out a lot of junk over the last days on this case and
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regarding this story but the best I can nail it down is this is how the situation worked okay
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the police were not told of this murder For Hire plot until after Chiron had disappeared yes this uh he goes by Rudy
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so we'll go we'll say Rudy Sanchez yeah I believe that's his nickname and he he approached the police and said
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look the lady on the news that's you know involved in this family with this disappearance
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um she tried to hire me to kill her husband okay well how do you know this lady Terry Orman
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um well I worked for her and that was a debate that you and I had had because when you hear the word landscaper and
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somebody worked for somebody you automatic automatically kind of assume that it's kind of sometime some type of
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long-term uh interaction or agreement that they have um and then we have Kane who says well I
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didn't even know we had a landscaper yeah so the situation is this they actually
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had a fairly big property I believe it was about two and a half to three acres and it sounds to me like Kane had
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decided that James James being a teenager this is Terry's biological son and Kane's stepson he's decided that
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James should be responsible for the yard work for the maintenance of this property well I guess Terry decided that
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this is too big of a chore for a child yes he's a teenager but he's still a child
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and I think that she probably felt that this was unfair and so unbeknownst to her husband she hired this landscaper to
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do a lot of the maintenance on the property she probably kept him working there you know when her husband wasn't
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there right um and it was probably just as simple as that this I don't know what
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this all entailed it could have been a situation where he only worked for her a handful of days or it could have been
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something a little more long-term now the the way that the story goes according to Mr Sanchez is that she had
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met him at a restaurant where there she was speaking to him about her husband Kane and she tells Mr
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Sanchez that Cain is mentally and physically abusive to her and at some point she starts telling him
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that you know Cain carries about ten thousand dollars cash on him at all times and he also has a laptop that he
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walks around with you know somebody could kill him and make it look like a mugging and run off with that money
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now the problem here is when when pressed further by the police Mr Sanchez does state
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at no time did she ever technically offer me money to kill her husband right at no time does she say the words I will
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give you ten thousand dollars if you murder my husband no he just says she kept kind of implying it she kept kind
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of leading me down that road now they don't have a chance to investigate this obviously until after Chiron has
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disappeared by this point she's probably Terry's probably on high alert they send
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in some guy you know an undercover dude bit of a sting operation to try to talk to Terry again about this murder For
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Hire plot and she basically jumps out of the situation and says I don't know what
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you're talking about I want nothing to do with this right so again if if this thing went down she gets out of it
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pretty easy yeah or she had nothing to do with it right I mean there's a possibility that she hired this guy she
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said a couple stupid things to and he took the wrong way uh he didn't if he really felt strongly about it I think he
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would have came to the police before and then we've seen multiple times with missing person cases and especially when
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it's a missing kid case some weird people get involved yeah I agree well Mr Sanchez says that you know not only did
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she use the uh Kane always has ten thousand dollars on him approach uh to trying to convince him to kill Kane but
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she also used her sexuality and you know bringing up the fact that well not the fact but bringing up her story of Cain
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being an abusive person now on on Terry's side in her defense what she would say regarding this is
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that the relationship with the landscaper they're they're you know working relationship together ended when
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she turned down sexual advances by Mr Sanchez and she also states that she could most times could not understand Mr
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Sanchez there was a you know things that would get lost in translation let's say
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well and also she possibly has bad hearing yeah and so she couldn't understand him and she believed that
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there were many times that they had conversations where he could not understand her as well and I think this
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piece of evidence for me if this came out or the police were notified about this five months before the kid with
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went missing then I'd I'd believe it more I'm not saying that I don't believe it but I just believe it more yeah well
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I wish it had come out five months before uh Kyron went missing because I have a feeling that had it we might not
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be sitting here looking for Chiron at this point right and the other tough thing about this too is from the you
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know from the get-go of the investigation uh Kane you know Terry's husband is adamant that she had nothing
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to do with it and showed no signs of ever being capable of doing something like this
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um the other thing though too I wish that somewhere somebody would be able to come out and say you
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know what I saw Mr Sanchez and Terry Horman together at a restaurant I wish somebody would if that happened and
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somebody spotted them um you know I wish we would have somebody saying that because to me
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there's no reason for a landscaper in the person that hires him to be together at a restaurant what about the delicious
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meals there's still no reason you know I worked as a landscaper for a couple years Captain nobody ever invited me to
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have a lunch or dinner with them but I'm a geek so why why would that happen all
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right more about this right after this quick beer break [Music] thank you [Music]
00:24:29
all right cheers mates we're back okay on Wednesday July 21st 2010 so this is just what about six weeks after Chiron
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Horman disappeared law enforcement is putting pressure on Terry's small circle of friends this includes 43 year old DD
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Spicer investigator Spicer's condominium and have interviewed people who saw Spicer on June 4th the day that Chiron
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disappeared now just two days later on July 23rd detectives investigating The Disappearance of Chiron announced that
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DD Spicer was doing gardening work for a Northwest Portland homeowner on June 4th
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but she had abruptly left the house at about 11 30 a.m and she did not return until about an hour to 90 minutes later
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another person working at the home called Spicer to come in for lunch and the homeowner called Spicer on her cell
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phone but she wasn't able to reach her detectives have questioned both the homeowner and other persons who were
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working at the home that day okay so we have a small circle of friends for Terry
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Horman and now we have this this woman Dede Spicer who is unaccounted for for about an hour to 90 minutes during the
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day that Chiron had disappeared yeah which is it's odd the problem here though is that he did go to school we do
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have some eyewitnesses of seeing Terry after she left the school right but I think the big problem here
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is that the we are told that she left the home around 11 30 A.M this presents a problem with Terry's
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story of what was going on that day because at this time she would have been near the end of her trip of driving her
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daughter around for about an hour and a half to get the kid to fall asleep okay and then shortly afterwards she's seen
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at the gym with her daughter and then we have we have this little this little 10
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minute five to ten minute overlap of DeDe Spicer when she first goes unaccounted for that day towards the end
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of Terry's time where she's unaccounted for and then we have Dede who's gone for
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about an hour to 90 minutes right but the tough thing for me is what did Terry if she took Chiron where was Kyron why
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she was at the store where was Kyron when she's driving around the daughter was he injured did she hurt him
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you know they searched the car there's no evidence of her driving around a dead body right this lady has to be crazy
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enough to help you hide the body of your of your stepson that seems like a pretty far leap I know
00:27:26
that there's some crazy people out there but and we don't really know much about
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her other than she's friends she's gave her some bad advice she's bought some I believe she bought some cell phones for
00:27:36
her so she could like talk to people without being traced which I think is kind of shady we don't know a lot about
00:27:42
her so to just call her like oh wow she's crazy enough to help hide this kid right but we would still like to know
00:27:50
where she was during this hour I definitely would like to know and again it's backing right up to the time that
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Terry is gone for the day now so in her defense um she states that the the calls went to
00:28:03
her voicemail uh by the homeowner and by the person working on the property um because she had left her phone in her
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car um the situation is this too this is a large property this is like a 38 acre
00:28:18
property right there's a chance you know I I I'm a little uncertain what this means when it says she abruptly left the
00:28:28
house at about 11 30 a.m well did she leave the property right um she could have very well have been on
00:28:36
the property cell phone in her car and not able to take these phone calls and I wish we had like cell phone pings to
00:28:43
prove whether or not that phone was at least on the property yeah and we have a situation where we don't seem to have
00:28:50
any communication between the two of them during this time frame yeah but that would be a smart plan hey we got a
00:28:57
plan and by the way don't talk to each other yeah just stick to the plan uh assume I'm going to be
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where I say I'm going to be at this time you be where I've asked you to be at the
00:29:09
same time I'll be in the garage the following week DD Spicer uh she appeared at the at the grand jury in front of the
00:29:16
grand jury in response to a subpoena now during this time Captain she's asked several questions where she you know she
00:29:24
pulls the old Fifth Amendment movement you know she says uh you know basically doesn't answer any of the questions I
00:29:31
played the fifth yes she's gonna plead the fifth so she doesn't have to answer any of their questions now in early
00:29:38
August we have Searchers and investigators they're searching a two-mile strip of old Germantown Road uh
00:29:46
this is not far from the home of DD Spicer on Tuesday August 17th DD Spicer tells
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People magazine that she did not leave the 38-acre uh property where she was working the day that Kyron Horman
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vanished right now we have some of the people that worked there um you know as we said she was
00:30:07
unaccounted for during this hour to 90 minute time frame uh It is believed that her vehicle the DD Spicer's vehicle
00:30:14
never left the property her cell phone in if we take her at her word her cell phone in her vehicle but
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we have people that have worked there have said that it's not impossible it would not have been impossible for her
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to have taken another vehicle and left the property that day yeah there's something fishy about DD Spicer yeah
00:30:35
well let's talk about the cell phones you brought it up let's talk about the burner phones or the prepaid cell phones
00:30:41
how you know there's a million different things you can call them but the situation is this they were able to
00:30:46
prove that on it on two occasions uh at least three cell phones were purchased uh these were prepaid cell phones uh
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they were paid for with cash and a fake name was used to purchase these phones um it was it's general knowledge that
00:31:05
one of Terry horman's friends was the purchaser uh at least one of these locations of these cell phones and I I
00:31:14
might not have been clear there but what but okay so let me break it down a little easier okay break it down break
00:31:19
it down for us on one occasion there were two two cell phones that were purchased by a person using cash in a
00:31:25
fake name at another location there was a single cell phone purchased using the same fake name and again with
00:31:33
cash I believe that they were able to link one of those purchases to one of Terry's
00:31:40
friends okay so here here's my thing with this burner phone little shady that you would want one if
00:31:48
you're Terry that you'd want a burner phone right but right but if you are a cheater
00:31:58
maybe you're planning on trying to hook up with somebody else maybe you wouldn't
00:32:03
want that monitored okay not that big of a deal oh you're just a shady person and you have bad morals but
00:32:11
that would be a reason then you ask your friend to buy it for you so you're not the one buying it and
00:32:17
then your friend uses a fake name now it's layer upon layer of shadiness right now the thing here is what we got to
00:32:24
call into question is we know that one of her friends did one of those purchases it's thought by law
00:32:30
enforcement that the other purchase is in fact part of her Circle as well because the same fake name was used in
00:32:37
the same method of payment was used now we do know that these cell phones exist and we know that this happened and
00:32:44
why because we have DD Spicer and we have Terry Horman who admit to using these phones they say that you know we
00:32:51
we're close friends we were in contact with each other after the investigation started we had in these are um Terry's
00:33:00
words that her phone had been flashed by police meaning that they took her cell phone for a portion of time and they
00:33:07
were able to to trace its activity right um so she says that these phones were used simply just for DeDe and her to
00:33:15
communicate back and forth I believe that at some point a third name came out and I want to say it was Laura or Lauren
00:33:22
I don't have the name in front of me I don't know how concrete that was but that's sort of thought where the third
00:33:30
phone would have went um but regarding remember the sexting the old text messages that we discussed
00:33:37
regarding uh Michael cook during those text messages at one point Terry you know for anybody that still
00:33:46
has a question if she had this burner phone at one point she says to Michael cook hey I have a clean phone right
00:33:54
uh would you prefer to communicate that way would you like to make my clean phone and him trying to continue the uh
00:34:01
Dirty Talk jokingly says I have a dirty phone and she doesn't really respond to that until he informs her that he was
00:34:09
joking because now she's like oh crap they're they're monitoring his phone right and he and she says do you think
00:34:15
they're monitoring your phone to which Michael says I I wouldn't think so but I don't know how that works where Terry
00:34:23
explains to him they would have had to physically have taken your phone for a short period of time where they would
00:34:29
have installed some kind of software or some form of monitoring his phone for me
00:34:34
with these burner phones again it goes back to even if it's as simple as I'm going through this process of an
00:34:40
interrogation I'm dealing with cops all the time and maybe I just want to vent and be like God this one cop he's he's
00:34:47
kind of a jack wagon right and this other guy's a douche canoe but you don't want to make it sound like you're bad
00:34:53
mouthing the cops because they're monitoring your calls I get that that's a reason but you just have your friend
00:34:58
go out and buy a burner phone using their name use their credit card if you have to give each other phones and
00:35:05
that's why you did it you know but using this fake name like I said it's layer upon layer of shadiness yeah and
00:35:11
regarding the questions that she had to answer in front of the grand jury that she did not DD Spicer did not willingly
00:35:18
answer they were pretty softball questions Captain I don't have the list in front
00:35:24
of me here but the thing is a lot of those questions um were things that the police would be
00:35:30
able to easily prove or disprove um things that don't seem to be may not be directly related to The Disappearance
00:35:38
of Chiron and and matter of fact if DD's not involved or Terry wasn't involved in
00:35:43
this then none of them would have anything to do with The Disappearance of Chiron yeah you know I think one of one
00:35:48
of the questions was was as simple as this you know what has your friendship and relationship been like for the past
00:35:55
six months with Terry Horman I don't know that you need to plead the fifth on that one and then another question of
00:36:02
well maybe there was some uh sexual stuff going on yeah have have you sent sent or received any emails from Terry
00:36:09
Horman after this date okay well plead the fifth but guess what that that again pretty easy to figure out if those
00:36:17
emails if that correspondence happened right so Terry the turtle does some shady things and Terry the turtle has
00:36:23
some shady friends and her scorecard is not looking very good for her right now on my garage scorecard here Captain but
00:36:30
we do have some events that took place regarding this that we should get to and we we want to make sure we mention the
00:36:36
first being on June 1st of 2012 Desiree Young the biological mother of Chiron filed a lawsuit against Terry claiming
00:36:44
that she was responsible for The Disappearance of Chiron seeking 10 million dollars in Damages now 11 months
00:36:51
later Desiree would drop the lawsuit saying that she didn't want the civil action suit to jeopardize is the police
00:36:58
investigation into her son's case then we have late 2013 a judge finalized the divorce between Kane and Terry
00:37:07
Horman but the couple still had to resolve the issue of who would take custody of the child that took place the
00:37:15
following year in 2014 the ruling would be that the the Kane would gain custody of their five-year-old daughter
00:37:25
yeah and Terry would be able to visit the girl under court ordered supervision in August of 2014 Terry attempted to
00:37:35
change her name to Claire Stella Sullivan to Turd Ferguson in court she told the judge Kyron Horman is missing
00:37:44
he needs to be found I love my stepson I want him home more than anything she also reminded the judge that she had not
00:37:52
been the the last person to see Chiron alive and her attorney could prove that now
00:37:59
the judge did deny her request to change her name and I think that's smart I mean
00:38:04
she's she's not been named a suspect but guess what when they're holding when they've when they've collected a grand
00:38:11
jury and they're presenting evidence to the grand jury yeah that means they're seeking to arrest and indict somebody
00:38:17
right on a charge but she could be harmful to other people she could be harmful to other children
00:38:22
and I think I think the thing here is the person that they were seeking charges on in an indictment against it's
00:38:29
obviously Terry Horman we have in December of 2014 uh Terry began working for a this is a care
00:38:38
facility for mentally ill adults um and she minded she might need to be in the facility yeah she was a health
00:38:46
support specialist she quit working that job in 2015. that brings us to August of
00:38:54
2015. where Terry Horman is charged with having stolen a handgun from her roommate she lived with a man he had a
00:39:06
gun safe I don't think it was a roommate though I think there were lovers and one
00:39:11
of his guns came up missing yes and he said you know what I I saw it in her possession she stole my firearm well and
00:39:19
she wasn't going by Terry to this guy I don't believe she was going by Terry she
00:39:24
was going by her uh maiden name right okay she ended up stealing the gun I think
00:39:28
right after he find found out that her stepson went missing so like they were hanging out for a long period of time
00:39:35
and she never brought this up yeah because she had moved by this point so this guy wasn't fully aware of this
00:39:42
situation and fully aware of her background or involvement in this uh right so the story goes that he found
00:39:50
out about this and I think questioned her and was like Hey look a lot of people online think that you had
00:39:56
something to do with it and then all of a sudden she steals his gun was she planning to try to get rid of this guy I
00:40:04
think there's only two to me unless somebody wants to try to come up with a great argument for another reason why to
00:40:09
me there's only two two reasons that somebody steals a gun a to sell it or B to use it to kill somebody
00:40:19
and not have it be traced back to you right yeah but what another thing too and I
00:40:25
don't know if you're going to bring this up in your notes but uh Desiree does something that I thought was super
00:40:30
awesome Karen's mother go ahead kyron's mother decides to go to the town that Terry moved to and start Plastering
00:40:38
missing person signs everywhere yes because she wanted everybody in that Community to know what kind of person uh
00:40:46
Terry is well what do they call those there are um there are people that have helped Desiree uh kind of
00:40:54
keep this Spotlight on Terry and I think I've heard them referred to as Desiree's disciples
00:41:03
that's not the name I would pick here's the thing I don't Turtle Hunters I I see
00:41:09
where one might applaud this I I do take a little issue with it um at some point somebody was placing
00:41:18
these missing posters around her job as well right um there's a little confusion as to why
00:41:24
she quit um and I what I mean by confusion is this we have the facility stating one
00:41:31
reason why Terry quit working there we have Terry stating another reason stating that she was in fear for her
00:41:38
life she didn't want to go to work she did try to put a restraining order on one of the women that was harassing her
00:41:46
around her job and that was putting up these posters that that was denied by the judge and that's when she quit right
00:41:54
um so that's more than likely the true reason why now regarding the gun charges though
00:42:00
um this didn't end up going to court for quite some time almost two years later one because she failed to appear in
00:42:07
court um and two uh they didn't end up resolving this situation and until this year the problem is Captain that the
00:42:16
charges she's found not guilty of having stolen this handgun really hmm that's weird
00:42:23
but this case is so tough for me because it all comes back to did she try to hire somebody to kill her
00:42:30
husband because if she didn't and that was just some weird mix-up or some weird dude
00:42:36
that just wanted to get involved in the story I don't think a lot of this stuff would
00:42:41
have been brought to light I don't think we would have had all these fishy scenarios with Terry well the thing here
00:42:48
is that Terry she hangs her hat on the fact that she has never been named a suspect we hear it time and time again
00:42:56
anytime she does an interview it's always either started with or followed up by I've never been named a suspect in
00:43:03
The Disappearance of Kyron Horman well good for you okay so let's talk about the the sticky situations we have the
00:43:11
one did she hire someone or attempt to hire someone to kill her husband was she involved in The Disappearance of her
00:43:18
stepson did she try to steal this gun and if so what what was she going to use it for well we have two situations the
00:43:26
first two where there are no charges brought up against her she's right she was not named a suspect and we have the
00:43:32
final one where the charges didn't stick she gets a not guilty verdict I'm gonna
00:43:37
call Terry Harmon the Teflon stepmom because nothing sticks to this woman all right but I think the thing here is to I
00:43:47
think I'm going to throw all those things out the window there's a possibility that she's guilty of one of
00:43:52
those actions or or more possibly all three but I'm gonna throw all those things out the window because
00:43:58
I don't think that there's enough evidence to to drive us to believe that she's actually
00:44:04
guilty of one or all those things but I think let's hone in on the Chiron disappearance
00:44:11
because I think the thing here is to understand this case and to understand who the most likely suspect is I think
00:44:20
we have to understand who Terry Horman is Terry Horman is a person that will do whatever she wants
00:44:28
at any cost with no regard for anybody else and when she does that and gets caught
00:44:36
she's going to do these things behind your back captain and when she does them and she gets caught
00:44:41
then she's going to lie about it and if she gets caught in her life she's going to change her story and she's
00:44:49
going to weasel her way out of every situation that she looks guilty and this is why I have a huge problem with Terry
00:44:56
and this is why I think she should be the prime suspect in The Disappearance of Kyron Horman why because her stories
00:45:04
keep changing everything that happened within This Woman's life every important thing that happened with this woman
00:45:12
leading up to his disappearance and the day that he disappeared her stories keep
00:45:16
changing one she's very selfish so we have a situation let's go through the first one okay we have her telling
00:45:24
people at her gym people that she works out with other people that go to the gym
00:45:28
we have them telling testifying in front of a grand jury that they were told by Terry that Cain forced Terry's son James
00:45:37
to go live with either his grandparents or his father but James's story let's go let's go get
00:45:44
this directly from from the person James's story is that he went to go live elsewhere because he could not get along
00:45:50
with his mother right that's a completely different story those are her words these are things she told people
00:45:56
that they were willing to testify to then we have the failed polygraph okay the multi two times she failed a
00:46:03
polygraph test now the thing that we hear most of the time is in her defense is that she is deaf in one ear and this
00:46:10
caused complications to those tests well I heard she was deaf in one ear and she
00:46:15
can't hear out of the other well the other thing that she said early on in this situation was that she failed
00:46:22
the first polygraph because it was taken the first week that Kyron had gone missing
00:46:28
and that she failed it because she was not sleeping or eating during this time because she was so upset about the
00:46:33
situation and she was so worried about Chiron that she could not sleep or she could not eat right yet
00:46:39
your own words Terry three days later within that same time frame you post on Facebook going to the gym guess what
00:46:47
Terry I don't go to the gym when I'm not sleeping when I'm not eating when I'm too stressed out or too worried about a
00:46:54
situation or even when he's feeling fine again her words and when that's good enough when that's
00:47:01
good enough then she changes it oh I can't hear out of my left ear okay now let's talk about questions as
00:47:08
to why Terry's phone was pinging off of a tower on Savvy Island when her first statements to police that
00:47:16
she was nowhere near Savvy Island then years later guess what she's saying now well when I was out driving the kid
00:47:24
around I was on Route 30 which is very close to Savvy Island no Terry you were either nowhere near
00:47:31
Savvy island or you were on route 30. and guess what even if you were on Route 30 maybe that explains the cell phone
00:47:39
pings to me but it doesn't explain to me why your story keeps changing and then the final thing that I want to bring up
00:47:45
right is the last time that Terry said that she saw Chiron he was by himself he was in the hallway he's walking towards
00:47:54
his classroom and then just three days later we have you saying that he was with a strange
00:48:00
man with a person that I didn't recognize right I'm sorry Terry that that is a way
00:48:09
of pointing the investigators in one of those other options not on Terry this points them towards some strange man
00:48:17
abducted this boy right and I tell you what you know we we talked about I said you know when I've
00:48:23
been questioned by police and they asked me something as simple as did you see a brown car drive past
00:48:31
I would say no I didn't see a brown car because I didn't but I'm going to tell them that I saw a blue car and I'm gonna
00:48:37
and I saw a black car why because I did why because guess what it's my duty as a
00:48:42
citizen as a citizen to tell them everything that I saw during the time frame that
00:48:48
they are asking me it's not up to me to decide the relevancy of the things I saw
00:48:53
right it's to pass on the information to law enforcement so they can determine the relevancy of what I saw and if it
00:49:00
means anything that could mean something to them later in their investigation guess what Terry you were probably if
00:49:07
the if the police and of which I have to believe that they were and detectives were following protocol they are going
00:49:14
to ask you very specific questions where was the last time you saw them what was
00:49:18
the last time you saw him who was with him did you see anybody with him right a boy a girl a man a
00:49:25
woman a dog a cat a python anything a turtle yes did you see anything the answer to those questions was no and
00:49:33
then magically three days later he's with some strange man this to me makes her the prime suspect
00:49:40
in this case 100 do you uh need to take a break I think I've said everything that I want
00:49:47
to say sure you look a little sweaty the kernel you always say I'm not going to get
00:49:58
heated up on this one hey the colonel showed up to play well obviously Captain they don't have enough
00:50:04
to bring Terry Horman up on charges of The Disappearance of Chiron right but they're still out there looking there's
00:50:09
still searches that are being conducted to this day and I think someday they might find that
00:50:15
thing that they're looking for they might find Chiron somewhere and I hope he's well
00:50:20
and when they do we're gonna I think we're gonna find more evidence pointing towards the guilt of Terry hormann you
00:50:27
know it'd be awesome if they find him one day I don't believe that's gonna happen
00:50:33
um not find him alive and uh as much as I don't approve of what Kane did um his parents are in a really tough spot
00:50:45
with life because Cain is always going to sit there and wonder what if I was just
00:50:53
faithful to my wife what if I never met Terry what if you know I mean what if I would have saw these signs earlier what
00:51:02
if I was honest with myself when I saw these signs and told more people about it what
00:51:08
if I wasn't so stubborn and I would have let him go live with his mother and then
00:51:13
the mother is going to think well why didn't I see this or what could I have done so he that he wouldn't have left uh
00:51:19
could I could I stay to make it work what if I saw these signs what if what if I wasn't sick in the first place to
00:51:26
let him go live with them and all these what ifs um that you can't change now and I
00:51:33
really feel for his parents and everybody that knew this wonderful kid he seemed like a wonderful kid
00:51:39
ball of energy and uh and I hope for his sake that we have answers one day [Music]
00:52:01
all right do we have a recommended reading for this week this week we are recommending women who kill profiles of
00:52:07
female serial killers by Carol Ann Davis she profiles 14 women who used all different methods of murder to kill
00:52:15
their victims each killer is the subject of a separate chapter exploring their childhood lifestyle and sexuality there
00:52:23
is an analysis of the murder the trial and the imprisonment of every woman the author comments on how Society May
00:52:31
underestimate dangerous women and what it is that can turn an ordinary woman into a killer women who kill by Carol
00:52:39
Ann Davis is our recommended reading but you don't have to jot that down right now because it is listed on a
00:52:45
recommended page at truecrime garage.com and check out all of our recommendations
00:52:50
there and I'm very excited about getting in the garage next week we are taking a
00:52:54
look at a case that has fascinated the captain for years yeah one that we have covered before but we're diving back
00:53:00
into so until next week be good be kind and don't litter thank you [Music]