00:00:00
when it comes to Quality sleep Ashley has you covered with top mattress brands at winning prices and with special
00:00:06
financing options available you can snooze now and pay later plus your mattress purchase helps give the gift of
00:00:13
better sleep to children in need and US Special Operations forces visit your local Ashley store or shop online today
00:00:22
and make every snooze count financing is subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for d details dreaming of
00:00:31
overseas Adventures or connecting more deeply with family from afar Rosetta Stone Bridges the language Gap I've
00:00:38
tried others but Rosetta Stone's immersive lessons and voice feedback technology are game changers dive into
00:00:44
25 Languages by learning intuitively just like when you were a kid and here's the holiday Sparkle grab a lifetime
00:00:52
membership now and save 50% gift yourself the world head to rosettastone.com now and save 50%
00:01:07
[Music] % [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thank you
00:01:46
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man whose fantasy football team is 4 and0 and the whole
00:01:52
roster is healthy as Horses here is the captain that's because my starting quarterback is Michael Jordan my
00:01:59
starting wide receiver is Babe Ruth it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling
00:02:05
a [Music] friend open up the garage fridge and gaze at the Bounty today how about some
00:02:18
more moncky cold snacks from contract Brewery montucky cold snacks is 16 o of American logger refreshment ABV 4.1%
00:02:30
garage grade three and a half bottle caps out of five and let's give some thanks and praise to our friends who
00:02:35
helped us fill up that fridge today first up here's a little cheers to April in Dalton Illinois and a big shout out
00:02:42
to Penny in Chapel Hill Tennessee next up a big cheers to Ian Ley and parts that are unknown and a big we like your
00:02:51
jib to Old Suzanna and Stockholm Sweden and here's a cheers and thank you to Laura and Rochester New York and last
00:02:59
but certain certainly not least a cheers to Jimmy and Amy over at screaming tuna
00:03:05
in Milwaukee everybody we just mentioned went to True Crim garage.com and helped
00:03:09
us out with this week's beer fund and for that we thank you yeah you got to watch out for the screaming tuna and the
00:03:14
Ugly Tuna it'll get you for everything true crime garage check out true crime garage.com and for all of our old
00:03:22
episodes download the Stitcher app they're free and we have a bonus show called off the Record if you're not
00:03:28
listening to that get on it what are you doing you're failing at life you offer nothing to society go to True Crime
00:03:36
garage.com click on off the Record to learn more about that show and that's enough of the business all right
00:03:42
everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music]
00:04:06
all right so where we left off yesterday we have two suspects one passed the polygraph test one did not Wayne Nance
00:04:16
passed the polygraph according to what we have found and the husband Harvey pounds the results were listed as
00:04:25
inconclusive there was some real holdback information we called [ __ ] on some of the other yesterday but there
00:04:32
was some real hold back information here this was how the ropes were tied to the
00:04:39
bed okay so they weren't just tied to the bed post and if you read the newspaper articles that's the way that
00:04:46
they make it sound and I think the sheriff's department did that on purpose the way that they were actually tied to
00:04:52
the bed post is that they were looped around the bed post and then brought down and tied to the bed frame itself
00:05:00
another thing was that Mrs pounds her clothing had been cut off of her and was found on the floor in the bedroom that
00:05:09
was not released to the public the other thing was the secret location of the gun
00:05:14
now we we said that several sources stated that where they found the gun was hold back information in fact what was
00:05:21
hold back information was where the gun was hidden inside the home before the killer be it Wayne Nance be it Harvey
00:05:30
pounds or whomever got it before using it to kill Donna pounds this is very interesting because
00:05:40
what this does I think really has to shrink your suspect pull greatly the gun was hidden inside of you know how
00:05:51
sometimes people will fashion a piece of furniture that it has like a secret compartment right that's where this gun
00:05:58
was kept the problem with that is there was only about a list of six or seven people according to everyone interviewed
00:06:07
in the family that knew that that gun was in that secret compartment in a piece of furniture inside the master
00:06:14
bedroom of the home of course everyone in the family knew that it was in this location right outside of that it sounds
00:06:24
like only a couple people but on that list that very short list oddly enough Wayne
00:06:32
Nance knew where that gun was this is according to the pound son Kenny who is off at the
00:06:40
Army they tell him there's been an accident at home you need to get home that's all we can tell you I guess his
00:06:47
father Harvey pounds had ongoing heart issues and so his immediate thought was oh my God my my father's died of a heart
00:06:58
attack he gets home to find out no it's his mother it's not been an accident she
00:07:03
was murdered inside the home when he's interviewed he tells the detectives that me and my friend Wayne Nance who lives
00:07:12
you know nearby almost seen in their backyard yes but again I don't think that this was known to any of the pounds
00:07:21
family right right that's only known to law enforcement correct cuz they don't know where they're going with this
00:07:26
they're still really looking at Harvey pounds they find out that this gun is in some kind of secret location this this
00:07:33
hidey hole that's been constructed into a piece of furniture and they're going well it's got to be Harvey no Kenny
00:07:40
tells them not only did I show Wayne at one time when we were kids where this gun
00:07:45
was being curious kids we took it out of that compartment and we actually fired the gun on one
00:07:53
occasion so this is quite interesting now let's talk about Wayne nansy a little bit more as said he's a senior at
00:08:01
high school he lives with his family nearby and his father George is an interesting guy he's as far as their
00:08:11
family goes it seems like the general consensus is that these are pretty normal regular people with the exception
00:08:18
of Wayne he kind of stands out at school he's kind of the odd kid and that's because of his own actions and his own
00:08:25
words his as far as his family goes his father at one point and I don't know I couldn't find a year for when this
00:08:35
happened but it seems that at some point his father was involved in some type of
00:08:41
robbery which led to him serving some time in prison and I think that this actually went down when Wayne was an
00:08:48
adult another thing that went down when Wayne was an adult was his mother for the life of me I can't figure out 100%
00:08:56
why they've listed it this way she died when he was a young adult and they listed her death as a
00:09:03
suicide yet we have several people that were with her the night of her death that says that they were she worked at
00:09:12
this place called the cabin which was known as a quote unquote Cowboy Bar and I guess the way that they ran the place
00:09:18
was that the employees were allowed to drink there whether they were working or not she was working that night and got
00:09:27
pretty drunk during the of her shift hopped in the vehicle and decided to drive off she smashes the vehicle head
00:09:36
on into a tree for whatever reason they listed her death as a suicide it seems to me like she was a drunk driver and
00:09:44
made some very very dangerous and poor decisions that night and all of that stuff happens when Wayne is older but
00:09:54
what's going on right now is we have this information that the gun was located in a secret compartment inside
00:10:01
some furniture and that Kenny is telling police Wayne Nance knew about that gun and had fired it before so the one half
00:10:10
of the room that likes Wayne Nance for the Donna pounds murder they're screaming at the top of the mountain
00:10:17
let's go get this kid they get a search warrant they go to Wayne's house they start talking to him asking him
00:10:24
questions they ask his mother questions they search his room and they find a couple of things that are of
00:10:33
interest to them one they find this black bag and inside the black bag they find a couple 22 caliber bullets the
00:10:41
same caliber that was used to kill Donna pounds if these are related to that murder it means Wayne either brought his
00:10:50
own 22 caliber bullets to the crime scene with him and left with a few of them still or took some with him as some
00:10:58
kind of trophy yeah like a souvenir right so again it doesn't directly tie him to the murder but it's of
00:11:07
Interest then they find a piece of clothing that has it appears to have some kind of blood stain on it now this
00:11:16
piece of clothing has been washed at least one or two times before or since the murder is it clothing of his it's
00:11:23
his clothing correct found in his room and it's been washed but they believe that at one time it had wet blood on
00:11:33
this clothing they cannot confirm if it is human blood they can't confirm that it's
00:11:40
Donna pound's blood but again this is of interest to them they collect the this article of clothing they collect the
00:11:48
bullets that they found they take this back to the sheriff and now here's where we are the public is pressuring the
00:11:57
sheriff's department to make an arrest charge someone with Donna pound's murder the sheriff and this was a very
00:12:05
rare thing at the time goes to the prosecutor and they agree what they're going to do is they're going to get
00:12:11
together a grand jury and they're going to present everything that the police have to the grand jury this means
00:12:19
everything that they have against Wayne Nance but also everything that they have
00:12:23
against Harvey pounds the grand jury is then going to decide one we have enough evidence to indict someone and two who
00:12:33
do we indict they review all of this evidence all of the information provided to them
00:12:39
and at the end of the day at the end of their sessions the grand jury decides there's not enough evidence to indict
00:12:47
anyone we can't charge Wayne Nance we cannot charge Harvey pounds and later we would have the prosecutor and the
00:12:56
sheriff now mind you the public they don't know that these are the two suspects that the grand jury was looking
00:13:02
at this is all very silent to the public closed door stuff but we have the prosecutor and the
00:13:10
sheriff who are later on record saying that they were both relieved because neither of them thought that they had
00:13:16
enough evidence to convict either individual and neither of them were certain who was
00:13:22
guilty of this crime if if if either of them were guilty in fact yeah and you don't want to take them to try and lose
00:13:29
the trial and then basically lose everything if you find out later that that's your guy if you would have just
00:13:35
been able to get more evidence against them so what we have here Captain is the Donna pounds case it's going to go cold
00:13:44
after this grand jury decides that there's no evidence to indict anyone they don't really have any leads
00:13:52
on the Siobhan mcginness case and as far as the burnart case that took place 5 hours away in Billings Montana 6 months
00:14:01
earlier they don't seem to have any leads in that one either life goes on Harvey pounds and his children they have
00:14:09
to go on with their lives they have to try to pick up the pieces and have some kind of family life Wayne Nance
00:14:15
graduates from high school and he joins the United States Navy that same year a lot of people wonder was he out
00:14:25
there trying to serve his country or was this just a really good way to get out of town yeah well we've seen well I also
00:14:36
wonder because we have a lot of serial killers that enter the armed forces and is it a way
00:14:44
for them to to kill people right yeah because you are always at the risk of going off to war and a lot of people do
00:14:53
not ever want to face to be put in a situation where they have to to kill someone or def defend themselves mhm
00:15:02
where somebody that is really into that kind of stuff might look for ways to to put themselves in that type of position
00:15:10
and joining the Armed Forces allows that right on December 13th 1985 this is 11 years after the unsolved
00:15:24
murders of Donna pounds and Siobhan mcin A call came into the sheriff's department this is in ravali County
00:15:35
Montana so if you were to look at a map this is the county next to the county where they found Siobhan mcguinness's
00:15:43
dead body and where Donna pounds was killed a call comes into the sheriff's department and this call was serious
00:15:51
simple and to the point the caller was a male and said in a Stern voice I'm at gave an address and said we have two
00:16:01
Dead adults and three kids here that are still alive get here now when the police
00:16:07
show up they're arriving to a fire to a house fire when they get inside and they put
00:16:16
out the Flames this was not a very impressive fire it looked like someone had attempted to burn down the entire
00:16:22
house what they found was kind of smoldering furniture that was on the ground level of the home
00:16:29
causing a lot of smoke not much fire the fire department puts out this fire they
00:16:35
when they arrive they have three children who have been removed from the home they're out in the front yard it's
00:16:42
like 6° outside but the male caller who found the house on fire who discovered this
00:16:50
and called the police he brought the kids outside he said we have two Dead adults and three kids that are still
00:16:57
alive get get here now the kids were all passed out practically komos from a lot
00:17:05
of smoke inhalation what the police find inside is we find the husband and father who's
00:17:13
been killed and he is on the ground level of the house and then upstairs in one of the bedrooms this is actually one
00:17:21
of the children's bedrooms they find the adult female the wife and mother of the
00:17:27
three kids the home belonged to Michael and Teresa Shook and their three kids their
00:17:34
children's ages are two four and seven they had two little boys and the baby is a girl what they were able to
00:17:43
determine was that at some point someone had come into the home tied up the husband and stabbed him to death and
00:17:53
left him for dead in a room on the ground level mhm upstairs in the baby's room the wife and Mother Teresa was
00:18:02
sexually assaulted tied up and stabbed to death in the baby's room left for dead whoever killed them didn't harm the
00:18:11
children other than set the fire and leave them to die in the house fire thank God this guy shows up and
00:18:18
calls in for help right or the fact that he went in and got the children out yeah
00:18:24
so who is this guy this guy is a guy named Greg Lakes and he had every reason to be at the
00:18:30
Shooks house that morning his son was a babysitter for the shook children he was
00:18:38
there to drop his son off to babysit the kids that day he shows up he said that he didn't he was unaware that there was
00:18:47
any type of fire or anything going on when they first showed up they went up and knocked on the door several times
00:18:53
nobody answered so I guess they even like drove off and got coffee or some type of breakfast and then decided to
00:19:00
come back they just thought maybe the family wasn't up and ready yet and when they come back there's
00:19:05
still no answer he found this to be weird so he's like I'm going to go around and check a side door checks a
00:19:11
side door it's unlocked he goes in and he finds the place is covered in Smoke the three children thank God they
00:19:21
survive this whole ordeal and they were in the hospital for days because of the smoke
00:19:28
correct police question the children as they come to you know once they start getting it back together here they
00:19:38
question the children what they learn is that the seven-year-old who they were hoping to
00:19:44
get some information from as he's the oldest of the three kids he knew nothing about this attack what he said was that
00:19:54
he had gone to bed after the family had dinner that night and next thing he knew he woke up in the
00:20:01
middle of the night his younger brother his name is Luke Luke is the four-year-old woke his older brother up
00:20:08
went into his room woke him up and told him that the house was on fire they couldn't go downstairs because that's
00:20:15
where the Flames were they couldn't get out of any of the windows the older boy tried some of some of the windows in the
00:20:22
upstairs and he remembered from what he learned in school that smoke Rises they wanted to be away from the smoke so they
00:20:30
laid down on the ground on the floor of their bedroom and then fell asleep next thing
00:20:36
he knows he's waking up and he's in the hospital the 2-year-old they're not going to get any information from the
00:20:42
2-year-old she's very much still a baby at this point so now we have the four-year-old the middle child his name
00:20:50
is Luke and he's got some really interesting stuff to tell the police he tells the police that he was the one
00:20:58
that answered the door when the man came to the door that ended up killing his parents Luke says that after the family
00:21:06
had dinner his mom and dad are busy cleaning up dinner his older brother's already gone off to his bedroom mhm Luke
00:21:14
hears a knock at the door he goes and answers the door and the man just walks right into the home that's why children
00:21:21
shouldn't answer the door yeah this man doesn't introduce himself he doesn't ask
00:21:26
for anyone he just pushes his way into the home the man then announces that he is
00:21:33
Conan the Barbarian okay yeah this is weird for police mind you they're interviewing a
00:21:40
four-year-old so they don't really know what to do with this Conan the Barbarian
00:21:44
information yeah is he telling the truth or is he just being a four-year-old and
00:21:48
doesn't really understand the question he's trying to be helpful but he doesn't know any
00:21:53
better he said that he saw the Man attack his father father and then the boy decided to run and hide in his room
00:22:02
next thing he knows he said after a good deal of time he sees the man kind of piling up
00:22:09
Furniture in the main room at the bottom of the stairs and he sees the man lighting the fire to where he gets
00:22:17
scared again and hides in his bedroom some a little longer and eventually the smoke causes him to go wake up his older
00:22:25
brother that's about as much information as can get from Luke he's going to really be the only living witness
00:22:33
there's three living children but he's the only one that seems to have witnessed anything police really want to
00:22:40
know two things one has Luke ever seen this man before and two what is the guy's name we know it's not Conan the
00:22:48
Barbarian Luke says that he has seen the man before but he can't remember where or
00:22:55
when and when asked what the name what the man's name was he tries to provide them with some type of answer but they
00:23:04
they don't know what it is that he's saying like whatever he's saying doesn't seem to make sense to them it seems like
00:23:09
they need to ask him easier questions is he tall short is he old young right and
00:23:16
they may have I don't know if they if they did or not I'm sure that they probably did you're going to ask for
00:23:22
some pretty basic identifiers of this person there was some hold back information in this case
00:23:30
as well and there often is most of these cases have hold back information the hold back information in this case was
00:23:37
that the both of the Shooks Michael and Teresa were tied up before being killed that was not released to the public the
00:23:46
other item was that Mrs shook was shot once in the leg this gunshot obviously was not what killed her it was the stab
00:23:54
wounds that killed her but she was shot in the leg and this was not released to the public mhm the interesting thing
00:24:01
about this hold back information here is we have those cases from 11 years earlier but they're in a different
00:24:10
jurisdiction they're in the jurisdiction the county to the north of where this double homicide took place the sheriff
00:24:19
there still very much had on his mind the murder of Donna pounds now a cold case in his
00:24:28
jurisdiction he reviewed what they put in the papers about the Shooks murder right but that holdback information
00:24:37
might have been what would tie these two together because he still very much had
00:24:42
on his mind the ropes that were found tied to the bed post and then down to the bed frame MH in the pounds home he
00:24:52
knew that a gun was used in the pounds murder He was unaware that there were bindings as well as a gunshot in the
00:25:02
shook murder where this sits Captain is unfortunately the shook murder starts to go cold as well and the
00:25:12
people of that County were an uproar they were calling for the sheriff for his job they wanted this thing solved
00:25:21
who could go into someone's home murder the parents leave the children to die there and set the house on fire they
00:25:29
wanted this monster [Music] cck this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays
00:25:46
maybe you struggle with seasonal Blues this time of year can be a lot and it's natural to feel some sadness or even
00:25:53
anxiety about it but adding something new and positive to your life can counteract some of of those feelings
00:25:58
therapy can be a bright spot something to look forward to to make you feel grounded and to give you the tools to
00:26:06
manage everything going on if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed
00:26:13
to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a
00:26:19
licensed therapist and switch therapist at any time for no additional charge find your bright spot this season with
00:26:26
better help visit better .c to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com
00:26:38
garage Rosetta Stone is the language learning program with a lasting impact I've been using the rap to learn French
00:26:44
and it's not just about memorizing words but actually having real conversations and it's not just French they offer 25
00:26:51
languages right now Rosetta Stone has an awesome holiday deal 50% off their lifetime membership every language
00:26:57
unlimited access forever for anyone keen on diving deep into a new language check
00:27:03
out rosettastone.com it's a GameChanger major phone carriers make you sign contracts with rigid data plans
00:27:11
to trap you into a kind of forced phogy sounds pretty insecure if you ask me at Consumer Cellular we believe in a more
00:27:17
consensual and healthy form of phogy free of contracts and more flexible to your data needs this way you stick
00:27:23
around not because we force you to with contracts and fees but because you love our phone plans like ardently love our
00:27:30
phone plans monogamously Consumer Cellular when Freedom calls we're here to answer call us at 1888
00:27:42
[Music] Freedom all right we're back you filthy True Crime animals Cheers Cheers tall
00:27:53
hands in the air cheers one more time for the people in the back and when we say people in the back in the garage we
00:27:59
mean that's third row people in the cheap seats third row is the is the last row we have we only have three rows so
00:28:07
here we go Captain we have a desperate sheriff who's looking for answers in this case that is very quickly going
00:28:16
cold a double homicide in his County he's desperate looking for answers anywhere that he can find them and we
00:28:25
have a psychic that I'm not certain if he reached out to the psychic or if the psychic reached out to him and sometimes
00:28:33
law enforcement does that to get new leads or possible tips or anything one detective that we spoke to said that he
00:28:40
would do that just for some outside of the box thinking was there some possibility or theory that we've not
00:28:46
considered MH not that they're going to put any weight into the psychic's Visions or thoughts or whatever but
00:28:52
maybe it's just some kind of theory that we've not thought of yet regardless of how this interaction comes about the
00:28:59
psychic tells the sheriff three very interesting things one that the killer has some type of injury to his body and
00:29:09
I believe that they said like the right side of his body maybe his leg or his hip testicle that's about as much as
00:29:15
they could provide on that first little detail the second thing was that the perpetrator was in woodworking or in the
00:29:25
furniture business and so some form or fashion the third and this is the one that really seemed to bother the sheriff
00:29:34
was the psychic told Sheriff Dy that he would have to wait until September to solve the case of course D wants to know
00:29:44
why the psychic is unable to provide that information right so then the psychic has to go to another psychic
00:29:50
friend to figure out why well they have a whole network right for Psychic Network that's right
00:29:57
all right Captain this takes us to September 3rd of 1986 what we have here is late on
00:30:06
September 3rd we have a married couple who is returning to their home they get to their house and they
00:30:13
see a vehicle parked in their yard mhm well the husband is quite upset about this nobody likes it when somebody parks
00:30:21
on your property that's what the streets and roads are for he tells his wife you
00:30:26
go ahead and go inside I'm going to go over and check out this vehicle he goes over to the vehicle and inside he sees a
00:30:33
man who appears to be sleeping inside the truck he goes in and he tells his wife no big deal looks like somebody had
00:30:42
way too much to drink and decided our property will be a good place for them to sleep it off right they're in the
00:30:50
home for a little while he has some things outside on his property I think like a boat and a shed some things that
00:30:57
are of concern to him that he's always voiced to his wife that you know anybody could easily steal my boat if they if
00:31:06
they're on the property or they could get access to the shed so now he's starting to second guess this whole man
00:31:12
outside sleeping thing and they have a re relatively big property too I feel like I would call the cops if I since I
00:31:20
don't know the individual yeah well that's his intent he tells his wife he's like I'm going to go outside and I'm
00:31:26
going to do two things I'm going to check on the boat and then I'm going to go over and I'm going to get the license
00:31:32
plate number off of this truck and I'm going to come inside and I'm going to call the sheriff and say hey there's
00:31:38
some dude in his truck on my property could you come and wake him up that's not what I'm doing I'm going outside I'm
00:31:43
getting his information and then I'm whooping his ass he goes outside and now the truck is
00:31:52
gone that seems like the result that you want yes so now now the husband is outside checking on all of his property
00:32:01
checking the shed checking the boat so on and so forth and he thinks that he sees someone in the bushes up near the
00:32:09
house he says hey who who is this who are you what's going on and a man comes out of the bushes and
00:32:18
says hey it's Wayne from work okay so this guy's name is Doug Wells he's the homeowner his wife is
00:32:28
Chris Wells Doug does not work with Wayne he Doug is a gunsmith he purchases and repairs guns
00:32:38
sells them he's known throughout that area for doing so he's pretty successful at doing this Wayne from work is Wayne
00:32:47
from his wife's work they work together at a furniture store Chris is the manager there she's the head
00:32:55
honcho Wayne works in the warehouse and he's also one of their best delivery guys delivering
00:33:03
Furniture Doug knows Wayne a little bit but he says had this guy not said Wayne from work I wouldn't have put together
00:33:11
who it was so he hears it's hey it's Wayne from work Doug notices that it's Wayne from
00:33:18
his wife's work he's like what are you doing here what are you doing on my property why are you up by my house yeah
00:33:25
I'm going to whoop your ass Wayne says I was driving by and I thought I saw somebody creeping around on your
00:33:32
property so I stopped to check it out Doug is not sure what to make of this mind you he just saw someone in a
00:33:41
truck and he saw the person in the truck he's not yet put it together 100% that the person in the truck could have been
00:33:50
Wayne Right Wayne tells him let's go inside we should call the sheriff and get somebody
00:33:57
out here to take a look at this Doug was planning on doing that anyway right Doug
00:34:02
says as soon as he turns his back Wayne must have struck him over the head with something knocks him to the
00:34:10
ground he takes Doug inside now mind you by this point Chris she's been inside for a little bit of time now she's in
00:34:20
the bedroom getting ready for bed late at night she hears the commotion she comes running into the room she
00:34:28
recognizes Wayne immediately obviously they've worked together for years Wayne what are you doing she says
00:34:35
he says look I'm in some trouble I've done something I just need some money and I'm
00:34:43
going to get out of town you'll never see me again I know you have keys to the store I know you have access to the safe
00:34:51
and I know how much money is in the building you're going to give me access to that money I want the money and I'll
00:34:58
be out of here Chris has no idea what Wayne's talking about she has no idea what it is
00:35:06
that he could have done has no idea why he would need to flee the area but she does have access to a safe she has
00:35:14
access to the work the work safe she has access to the money and he's right Wayne
00:35:19
is right there was a decent sizable amount of money at the furniture store I'm just saying if you're working with
00:35:26
this guy and he's coming at you and he says oh well you have a key to safe but you don't and you don't have access for
00:35:33
the money then now we got even a even bigger problem because this guy's a psycho the way that Wayne explains it to
00:35:41
both Doug and Chris is that he just needs to get these keys he might steal their vehicle and he's going to be out
00:35:49
of here he tells them that he's going to need to tie both of them up and he tells
00:35:55
them that he's going to tie them up in different locations of the house because if he ties them up in the same room that
00:36:00
they're more likely to get free or help one another and get free and he needs some time he says once I get to where
00:36:08
I'm going I will call someone and send them to your house and they will you know cut you free this is 86 right this
00:36:17
is September of 1986 okay I let's just point this out that this was done before we've seen
00:36:25
this in several cases two that immediately come to mind are BTK and zodiac right and both of these
00:36:33
cases we've seen where the perpetrator says I'm just going to get some money I just need to steal your car I'm going to
00:36:40
tie you up to buy some time yeah I just need to tie you up so then I can take her to another room to to try to rape
00:36:49
her well we hear so often Captain don't ever get in the car whatever you do whatever they promise you whatever they
00:36:55
threaten you with don't get in in the car don't get in the car or the van now we're starting to learn don't let them
00:37:01
tie you up no we should have already known that just like when gasy wants to do that little handcuff trick hey I got
00:37:09
the handcuffs now you try it on a [ __ ] you [ __ ] you I'm not trying on any handcuffs you want to tie me up suck it
00:37:19
I am not letting you tie me up it's difficult because look these victim not difficult kill me because you're not
00:37:25
tying me up well it's not difficult for you but it's difficult for the victims in these situations because they've seen
00:37:31
and heard and read of times where people are just tied up and left and so in in this state they they may believe it they
00:37:40
just want it to be over with yeah but knowing what we know now what what would you recommend well I
00:37:47
just said what I would recommend don't let them tie you up no tying up what we have here is Nance decides
00:37:54
that he is going to tie dug up downstairs in the basement he takes Chris down there with them and has Chris
00:38:02
tie dug up then he takes Chris upstairs to I I believe it's a two-story home and takes her to the the
00:38:12
upstairs and he's going to tie her up upstairs now meanwhile what we have going on here is we have Doug who's
00:38:22
trying to free himself he's already been hit over the head a couple of times he's suffering pretty bad he's
00:38:31
trying to get free he has no idea what's going on upstairs but he can still hear
00:38:37
and he thinks that Wayne Nance is still in the house this guy said he's going to
00:38:41
leave why is he not in a hurry to leave Wayne must have heard some commotion because he decides to come
00:38:48
back downstairs and he checks on Doug again but this time he picks up a knife and he sticks it into the the man's
00:38:56
chest Jesus Doug said that he could feel the knife go right into his chest and puncture his lung and he could hear the
00:39:06
air come out of his chest that was escaping his lung at this point Doug is pretty
00:39:14
certain that he blacks out he says he comes to a few minutes later at this point a couple things have
00:39:24
changed one he noticed that Wayne when he went back upstairs this time Wayne did not close the basement
00:39:33
door Doug thinks that this means that Wayne thinks that Doug is dead right Doug is able to free his hands and then
00:39:44
he reaches down and he unties his legs we already said that Doug is a gunsmith his shop is the basement of his
00:39:54
home don't bring a knife to a gunfight well I guess that's that's a a detail that I failed to point out Wayne has a
00:40:01
gun oh Doug knows this that's part of the reason that the two of them were tied up in separate locations however
00:40:10
we're talking about handing out advice don't get in the car don't let them tie you up maybe don't break into a gunsmith
00:40:16
home or try to home invasion at a gunsmith home yeah and look I know that it's not as simple as just nope you're
00:40:23
not going to tie me up especially when somebody has a knife or have they they have a gun right but it's like if if
00:40:30
they shoot you dead right then like it's probably going to in pretty quickly if they tie you up they have the ability to
00:40:38
torture you or to T torture your loved ones all right I don't want anybody getting any advice from our show I don't
00:40:46
want somebody coming at us going well let's just move on let's March forward well just as a
00:40:54
reminder there's beards are flowing so don't listen to anything we're saying we're just two idiots in a garage yes
00:41:02
they won't allow us to leave mhm we're trapped Doug comes to and he picks up one of the guns that he's been working
00:41:09
on and listen to How smart this guy is he says to himself I only have seconds Doug is an avid
00:41:21
Hunter unfortunately he's shot animals in the chest while out hunting he knows that sometimes a deer might run around
00:41:29
for 20 30 seconds afterwards he tells himself from that experience I've got about 30 seconds and I'm going to die
00:41:38
because this guy stabbed me in the chest he decides he's only got enough time for one bullet in this gun he's got
00:41:49
to load the gun and then go find Wayne and he tells himself I got 30 seconds until I die and I'm taking this guy with
00:41:57
me he puts one bullet in the gun and he decides that whatever's going on upstairs he does not have the strength
00:42:06
or the vision because mind you he's in very bad shape he's close to dying MH to shoot at Wayne Nance in the same room as
00:42:16
his wife as he will very likely shoot her on accident he decides he's going to make some noise and make Wayne come to
00:42:25
him yeah he makes a little bit of noise he hears the basement door open and as soon as he spotted Wayne long enough to
00:42:36
make sure that it is Wayne and not his wife Chris he pulls the trigger he puts one in Wayne's
00:42:45
chest he goes up the stairs to where Wayne is lying Wayne starts to get up Doug takes
00:42:54
this gun and beats the hell out of Wayne Nance he keeps hitting him over and over
00:43:02
and over again in the head and neck area kick his ass see driving him to the ground driving him to the ground Wayne
00:43:09
keeps trying to get up driving him to the ground eventually Wayne stops moving and now we have Doug and Chris
00:43:19
who call the sheriff's department Sheriff come out they figure out what's going on the the call is interesting in
00:43:27
itself too because Doug is in very bad shape his estimate of I've got about 30 seconds well he wasn't too far off from
00:43:35
that because it was Chris that called the police she says I need an ambulance here now my husband is dying a man
00:43:44
attacked my husband and he's dying right well of course they want to know how many squad cars and how many ambulance
00:43:50
to send to the place and they want to know what's going on what they're walking into they say to Chris what's
00:43:58
going on with the other guy what's going on with the attacker Chris says I don't
00:44:01
care get here and save my husband yeah well to put a long story short there captain or to shorten my long
00:44:11
story M Wayne Nance dies and I've read a few different versions of this I don't know which to be true I think he
00:44:20
probably died on the way to the hospital some of the short versions say he died at the hospital some say he was dead
00:44:26
upon arrival regardless we know the result Wayne Nance attempted to do something very horrible to these people
00:44:34
he was attempting to rape Chris Wells steal some things from the home and kill both of them yeah he's probably going to
00:44:42
light him on fire he was unsuccessful thankfully in doing so yeah and before he died he looked up at the sky and he
00:44:49
put his hands up and said I am Conan the Barbarian well the thing that was weird
00:44:56
here is we have the sheriff's department that they have known all of this time we're talking this is like 12 years
00:45:05
later they still have the Donna pounds murder on their minds right the sheriff the head honcho in charge he knows that
00:45:15
Wayne Nance was one of two prime suspects in Donna pound's murder they being law enforcement were
00:45:24
on record when they were interviewed by the newspaper the very next morning about you know what happened
00:45:32
last night these two people were attacked inside their home the this man attempted to kill both of them the
00:45:38
husband and wife managed to get free and kill the perpetrator law enforcement said to the
00:45:45
newspapers that was like Christmas morning for us this is one of those times that the good guys won yeah the
00:45:52
good guys won and now were they able to to connect him more to the pounds case that's very interesting as said he was
00:46:02
one of two prime suspects in that case so much so that they took that evidence against Wayne Nance to the grand jury
00:46:10
that decided not to indict right what's really interesting was the shook murder case Michael and Teresa the one where
00:46:20
the house was set on fire and the three kids survived what we have going on now this
00:46:26
is 10 months later after their murder that case was starting to go cold police had no leads not much in the way of
00:46:35
evidence either in that case they had this story from the four-year-old who survived who couldn't really tell them
00:46:41
anything other than the man pushed himself into the house and said he was Conan the
00:46:47
Barbarian we get a phone call to the Sheriff's Department from the grandparents the grandparents are now
00:46:55
the the surviving children live with the grandparents the grandfather he heard the news about the
00:47:04
attack against the wellses and how this guy worked at a furniture store worked for Chris they
00:47:11
both worked at the furniture store that he tried to kill this couple MH the grandfather remembers the Shooks
00:47:20
purchased Furniture shortly before they were killed wow and in fact he helped them pay for it so he knew where it was
00:47:29
purchased from it was purchased from the same furniture store that Chris worked at that Wayne Nance worked at and it was
00:47:37
later determined that Wayne Nance was in fact the delivery driver of that furniture that's where that little boy
00:47:45
Luke had seen the man before but couldn't place the when or where or why police did a follow-up investigation
00:47:56
ation because now we have a dead suspect a guy who has been killed in the commission of trying to commit further
00:48:03
murder he's a suspect in several Murders At this point they search his home where
00:48:08
he was still living with his father at this point his mother's already passed away from that car accident that we
00:48:14
talked about earlier they find stolen items from the shook family home in Wayne Nance's room
00:48:23
and these were items that were pretty much oneof a kind pretty rare items yeah these weren't just common household
00:48:31
goods got him they were able to find things from Donna pound's home inside his room as well right so what Doug and
00:48:41
Chris did not only did they save their own lives they probably saved future lives of this serial killer who was
00:48:49
going about his killing business undetected but they also helped to solve the shook murder case double homicide
00:48:58
and the now very cold Donna pounds case all right but what about the other cases
00:49:03
that you have talked about well it's interesting here Captain because there was a lot of thought put into the
00:49:11
possibilities with Wayne Nance unfortunately we have a dead suspect in these other cases and we've seen this so
00:49:19
many times these serial killers they are a weird breed where we get them we lock them up
00:49:26
and sometimes they spill their guts and they sing like a bird and they tell us all kinds of stuff they tell us all
00:49:32
kinds of stories some of them true some of them false they claim numbers that they have not achieved as far as killing
00:49:38
goes they other times they shut down and don't say that they don't admit to anything with this case we're left to
00:49:47
speculate and our friends out in Quantico the FBI profilers they were very interested in the possibilities of
00:49:56
Wayne Nance mm they had speculated that he probably killed 5-year-old Shon mcginness and there were several
00:50:06
thoughts put into this Theory one that she was an easy vulnerable victim that it was part of his process of becoming
00:50:18
the serial killer she would have been unfortunately a lowrisk victim for someone like Nance who wanted to try his
00:50:28
hand at killing for several reasons one she's very young she likely didn't know Wayne Nance and if he attempted to do
00:50:36
anything she wouldn't be able to identify him if she survived also she's only five so she doesn't put up much of
00:50:43
a fight there's the another theory involving the possibility of Wayne Nance killing Siobhan
00:50:52
mcginness and the thought was that maybe he was into killing kids and that his Target two months later was not Donna
00:51:05
pounds but he had been watching the house and maybe the 12-year-old daughter Kathy was his actual
00:51:13
Target but Donna pounds came home before Kathy did and he decided to attack and kill her the FBI have talked about this
00:51:25
quite a bit and Roy Hazelwood who I'm a big fan of he's written several very good books he put forth a couple of
00:51:33
theories about Wayne Nance's potential involvement in the Siobhan mcginness case however in
00:51:40
2008 we find out through DNA analysis found on Siobhan mcginness that Wayne Nance is not responsible for her murder
00:51:51
so it looks like Donna pounds was in fact his Target on that day yeah it seems like part of his sexual fantasy
00:52:00
was a individual that he knew that possibly was maybe a little bit older than he was or somebody in authority
00:52:09
figure yeah it appears that he became infatuated with these women with these three targets MH now he's tied to
00:52:17
several other cases and we did discuss the possibility that the unknown killer at the time back in 7 for might have
00:52:26
been responsible for the murder of Clifford and Linda barnhard that took place in Billings Montana 5 hours
00:52:36
away very weird here Captain it was just last year that they were able to find the killer of the barnarts all of these
00:52:47
years later in 2019 authorities identified the killer of of the barnarts as Cecil Stan
00:52:58
Caldwell he was a co-worker of Linda barnhart's who died in 2003 at the age of 59 Cardwell had no
00:53:08
arrest record it turns out that it looks like Cecil Stan Caldwell was the unknown
00:53:15
dinner guest for that night at the barnhard house and what about these other Jane Do's yeah in the trailer we
00:53:24
discussed two Jane does we talked about Christy Crystal Creek and another Jane Doe that was named Debbie Deer Creek
00:53:33
well in the course of about 5 years from 1980 to 1985 there were three unidentified women found close to the
00:53:43
city of Missoula one found in 1980 one in 84 one in 85 all of these victims were determined
00:53:53
to be murdered they were unidentified Remains the first victim was found in January of 1980 and she was dubbed Betty
00:54:03
Beaver taale eventually she was identified but they've not been able to determine who killed her or put her in
00:54:12
that location a second body was found in 1984 and she was the one that they labeled as Debbie Deer Creek the third
00:54:22
body was that of Christy Crystal Creek found in 1985 it took many many years Captain but
00:54:31
they were able to identify Debbie Deer Creek as being Sherry Bachman she was about 16 years old when
00:54:42
she ran away from home and it's believed that she hitchhiked her way into the area where she falls into our case is
00:54:51
there was this mysterious girl that was not from the area way back when living with Wayne Nance for a brief period of
00:54:59
time going by the name of Robin after this unidentified woman was identified as Sher Bachman and pictures
00:55:09
were released to the public featuring her sitting next to Wayne Nance many people came forward and said
00:55:18
hey we know this girl that was named Robin that was living with Wayne for several weeks and then all of a sudden
00:55:25
she was gone one day and when asked what happened to your girlfriend Robin who you seem so serious with Wayne had a
00:55:33
different story for each person that asked him that question what happened to Robin where'd she go did you guys break
00:55:40
up he had a different story for each one so Wayne Nance is pretty firmly believed
00:55:46
to be responsible for the death of Sher Bachman once named Debbie Deer Creek where our case stands today is that we
00:55:56
still need to know the identity of Christy Crystal Creek she was found in Missoula Montana she was shot to death
00:56:05
she was found on September 9th 1985 anyone with any additional information regarding the identity of
00:56:16
this person or to request additional information please contact the Missoula County Sheriff's Office at 406 258
00:56:26
3348 or the FBI violent criminal apprehension program at 8634 [Music] 497 I want to thank everybody so much
00:56:49
for sharing on social media Colonel do we have any recommended reading for this week yes we do Captain this week we are
00:56:56
recommending to kill and kill Again by John coulston to kill and kill again reveals the disturbing compulsions of a
00:57:04
Charming serial killer who fooled nearly everyone he knew check out that great title and many others at true Crim
00:57:12
garage.com and click on the recommended page and I recommend that you join us back here in the garage next week until
00:57:19
then be good be kind and don't live [Music] Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I
00:58:02
thought it was an Eco move few your worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iconic
00:58:10
must be a tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare upfront prices book a service
00:58:16
instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us so much more than
00:58:22
just a list get started at and . that's ngi or download the app today