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[Music] [Music] thank you foreign welcome to Shaker Heights episode 5. The Crucible
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flitting floating falling on the ground I freeze on children's eyelashes and blur their altered vision of the
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world they see a different Earth than I of candy and playgrounds and eternal smiles
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I see the truth cold bare trees stripped of life and hard ground that poem was written by a 16 year old
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girl named Lisa Pruitt not long before she was stabbed 21 times and Left for Dead behind her boyfriend's house and
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Shaker Heights Ohio in September of 1990 in the hours after her murder a small group of close friends gathered away
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from their parents away from the police and made up their minds that the person who committed this crime
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was the weird kid in school the kid who wore Metallica t-shirts Kevin Young one by one they went to police and
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pointed the finger at Kevin and although there was not one piece of evidence linking Kevin to the crime
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scene regardless of the fact that he had an alibi the Small Town police were taken by the children's stories and they
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decided Kevin young was their best suspect a tragedy was playing out in real time
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just outside of Cleveland and the name of that tragedy was The Crucible on September 26 1990
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several detectives from Shaker Heights traveled to Ohio State University where Kevin young was beginning his freshman
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year because of what happens next Kevin Young's life will be quite short he will never hold down a real job or
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have any long relationships with women no family of his own he will die at the age of 44. in 2017.
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the detectives have consulted with FBI profilers who explain how they could extract a confession from Kevin
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speak to him late at night they said bring lots of candy and soda be good cops try to make friends with him
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let him feel safe And So It Goes [Music] foreign [Music] 26 1990. deputy chief Jim rossias detective
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Sergeant Dan Velardo Detective Tom kahanski officer Ben Hur secretary Roz and I drove to Ohio State University
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we arrived in Columbus about 6 pm and met with Captain John Petri and detective Jim younger of the Ohio State
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University Police Department also present were detective Sergeant Tim Reed and detective Tim Ward who had gone
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to Columbus earlier in the day the campus police assigned one of their officers to watch the dormitory to let
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us know when Kevin young came in we plan to make contact with Kevin about 8 pm we then went to the Ramada Inn to get
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settled and have dinner as of about 8 PM the Columbus Police had not located Kevin one of their officers called the
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phone to Kevin's room asked for Kevin and was told he was not in this officer then set up surveillance on
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Kevin's room about 9 pm we decided to return to the police department upon our arrival detective younger
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explained that one of his undercover officers has just located Kevin Young he explained that this officer was
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addressed as a maintenance man and was cleaning a trash room that gave him a direct view of Kevin Young's dorm room
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this officer had just reported that Kevin had left his room gone down the stairs and returned with a pop he added
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that Kevin was wearing a blue Woodberry run t-shirt I followed detective younger
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to the dormitory Rob house is one of the dormitories and moral Tower located on the campus at Ohio State University
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detective younger and I entered the third or the main floor this is the only entrance and is staffed by students who
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provide security and limited access to the building detective younger identified himself as
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campus police and we went up the elevator to the fifth floor there we met with the campus police
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officer who had seen Kevin young he told us that Kevin's roommate and a girl had
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just left but that Kevin was in the room the door to the quad dorm room number 550 was open as was the door to Kevin's
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room which was 554. the open hallway door entered into a small living room type area
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to the rear of this area were four doors each leading to a dorm room shared by two students detective younger entered
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the quad dorm room through the open door and knocked on the doorway to Kevin's room
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I waited outside in the hall where I could both see and hear detective younger detective younger displayed his
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badge identified himself as a campus police officer and told Kevin that someone was here to talk to him Kevin
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said to ask him in and detective younger said it was private and suggested they step out in the hall and away from his
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roommates it should be noted that we had selected the hallway because the room to
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the other quad dorm rooms were all closed no one was in the hallway and Kevin's other roommates were in their
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rooms with their doors open Kevin said he needed to get off the phone Kevin young and detective younger then
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walked into the hallway I introduced myself as Tom Gray from the Shaker Heights Police Department as I
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said Shaker Heights Police Department Kevin said the words with me Kevin nervously said he had been
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expecting to hear from us I told Kevin that I had been interviewing a lot of people who had
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information about Lisa Pruitt I added that rich mullaney and Jim brosis had told me that during his first interview
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he had offered to come in whenever necessary to help us with the case I told him that since I needed his help
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I thought it made more sense for me to come to Columbus invited us into his room
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I told him that I thought it was private and best be done away from his roommates
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I added that I had asked detective younger to get me into the building because that would attract far less
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attention than the Shaker Heights Police I went on to tell Kevin that we could use a room at the campus police
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department and he appeared to get very nervous I then told him I was staying at the
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Ramada Inn about five minutes from campus and that we could use my room Kevin agreed and said he just needed to
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get some shoes and call home he dialed the phone that put it down got his shoes and asked if he could call
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later I told him he could call home whenever he wanted detective younger Kevin young and I
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walked towards the elevator Kevin said that the stairs were faster so we walked down the stairs
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detective younger got into his Auto and we went on to other duties Kevin and I got into 6782 and unmarked Shaker
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Heights police cruiser during the drive Kevin and I did not talk about the case instead we discussed college life
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dormitory life and classes he mentioned that he was glad to be at school and that it was an opportunity to begin a
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new life he explained that he had not decided on a major but was interested in business
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he added that his real interest was in economics and we talked a little about economics the Adam Smith Foundation he
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started in high school and Mr Fabrizio his high school economics teacher we discussed the adjustment to college
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classes Kevin said it was an easy transition because what he was doing in college was a review of what he did in
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high school he said he tested out of enough credits that he will be a sophomore mid-year
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he also talked about the honors program in Ohio state that he is currently enrolled in Kevin and I arrived at the
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motel about 9 45 pm we parked by door number two and took the elevator to the fifth floor
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room 520 was around the corner to the right as we exited the elevator as we entered the room Kevin remarked
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that it was a nice room he mentioned calling home and asked if he could wait until after we finished
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I told him he could call what he wanted and offered to let the city of Shaker Heights pay for the call
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I suggested you have a seat and make himself comfortable he sat in the seat on the couch nears
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the window as I sat on the other end of the couch there was a loud noise like a helicopter
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from outside Kevin asked if we could close the windows I got up closed both sliding doors and
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turned the air conditioner on low I begin by explaining to Kevin that I spent the last two weeks talking to
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people and gathered as much information as possible in an attempt to figure out what happened to Lisa
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I told Kevin that I needed some insight from him in addition to just discussing his involvement
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Kevin said he was eager to cooperate in any way that he could I told Kevin that this trip to Columbus
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was important to me I explained that we were under pressure from the media and there were some loose ads and questions
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I had about his involvement with the case Kevin responded with a few comments about how bad the television stations
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are and how bad he felt about what they did to Dan he added that he would like to resolve
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this before the media gets a hold of the story Kevin asked how long we would be and I told him I wasn't sure I explained
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the cabinet since I came to him for help he could decide when he was ready to stop talking and I would take him back
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to his dormitory he mentioned that he had an eight o'clock class but added that he was a night person and we could
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take our time we discussed his class schedule and the classes he was taking I offered Kevin a
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pop and he chose a Coke from the can whoops I offered I offered Kevin a pop and he
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chose a Coke from the can the only way I drink it I then reminded Kevin that I was a
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police officer that I was investigating a crime mm-hmm I then reminded Kevin that I was a police officer and that I
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was investigating a crime in which he was still a suspect Kevin said that detective mullaney had
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explained all that to him I told him that he had a right to remain silent and didn't have to talk to me
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Kevin said he wanted to help I told him that we could stop or take a break whenever he wanted
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he said he knew that as I started to explain that he could talk to an attorney Kevin interrupted me
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and said that he understood his rights he explained that detective mullaney had explained all his rights and that he
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signed a paper that he understood I asked Kevin to tell me what he thought about the incident
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Kevin replied that as he told detective mullaney he was afraid that tax Ken Workman had done it and what scared him
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even more was that text might have done it for him Kevin went on to explain that he didn't know
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how he could live with the guilt if Tex had done it for him I asked Kevin why techs would do it for him and Kevin
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replied that he Kevin had been at Arabica on Thursday when tax came in Kevin said he remembers that at the time
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he was sitting alone at a table and was real upset about a good friend of his that had been sent to the Middle East
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Kevin said he remembers texts coming in sitting at a table with him and saying something about going over to Dan
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dryford's and that Lisa was coming over he remembers that Tech said something about hating to be around when Dan and
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Lisa are together I then asked Kevin why he thought Tech would do this Kevin replied that Tex
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knew that he Kevin had a crush on Lisa for a long time even though Kevin insisted the crush was over
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Kevin out of the text was also worried about having an alibi for Thursday night Kevin explained that he was feeling
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extreme guilt even thinking about the possibility that text might have done this for him I asked Kevin who he was
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friends with that went to the Middle East and Kevin said it was Emmanuel Robinson
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he then went on to explain that Manny was not really a close friend just someone he went to high school with
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Kevin added that he really didn't even know if Manny was there but that he had heard that from other friends
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I asked Kevin if Manny went into the service right after high school he explained that Manny and he had just
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graduated together and that he didn't know Manny very well Kevin added that he only spoken to Manny
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a couple of times throughout High School Kevin said it just scared him that a kid
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his age was going to come back Dead from the Middle East Kevin went on to talk about the draft
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and how because of his January birthday he would be one of the first kids drafted
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he explained that they were going to start the draft next year by drafting 19 year old kids I asked Kevin what he
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thought about the draft and he said he didn't really think they would do it Kevin then went on to add that he
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thought the draft was unfair since they spent all that money all those years on a volunteer army
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Kevin added those volunteers and reserves knew their risks when signed up and that they should not need a draft
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Kevin pause as if in deep thought and I told him I remembered worrying about the
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draft in high school and that they stopped the draft of the year I graduated I then asked Kevin if he was worried
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about the draft and he said not really he did not really think they would have a draft he then began to talk about
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settling it through economic means free markets and why we were in the middle he went on to explain that he remembers
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having long arguments really discussions with students and teachers at Shaker High School on topics like this when
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Kevin was done explaining his views on the issues I asked him if he enjoyed thinking and talking about things in
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theoretical kinds of terms Kevin said yes he remembers Kevin said yes he remembers doing that a lot in
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economics and I said with Mr Fabrizio and he said oh you know him he's a different sort of guy but we used to
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have a lot of long talks about economics World politics and anything Kevin added that his own views were kind
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of conservative and had allowed him to have some long discussion with some kids at school that had really strong views
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and then he enjoyed doing that kind of thinking and that kind of mental thought process
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I then told him that was what I needed help with I explained that it would be great help to me in figuring out what
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happened to Lisa Pruitt I asked him to put himself in the place of the person who did this to Lisa
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Pruitt and tell me a little bit about what he thinks happened Kevin looked at me with a kind of
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puzzled look and said just between us and I said yeah just to kind of help me think through the
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thought process I began asking Kevin if he thought Lisa was riding her bike or walking when this
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happened looking at me but without constant eye contact he said that he thought she was
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riding her bike and that the person grabbed her off her bike and that the bike then rolled into the bushes
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I asked him to go on and Kevin thought for a minute and then turned and looked at the sliding door window and began to
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explain that the person who did this really didn't plan on it to happen and he didn't really think about it ahead of
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time that he was just walking around that night and kind of wandering and saw Lisa and when these two people got close
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something snapped something snapped in this anger came out that he could not control he knocked
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Lisa off her bike and grabbed her and something happened and she was stabbed with a knife and she was stabbed and she
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died so fast that he got scared he did not want that to happen and he started acting frantic and crazy and
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running around and doing things real quick because he was scared Kevin paulsden I asked what happened
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next and he looked at me and said that he ran from there Kevin added that he was sure that he
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will never kill again and that he was sorry that Lisa died Kevin said that he probably has a new
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life away from there Kevin thought for a moment and repeated that he got out of there
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Kevin added that he was sure that this person will never kill again and that this person was so scared when Lisa died
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that he will never kill again I told Kevin that I was afraid that something might snap again and that this
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person might hurt someone Kevin said he was sure the person wouldn't because the
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person had gone on to another life and things were better and this could never happen again
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I asked Kevin to describe what he thought happened to Lisa he said she was stabbed and then he
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added he heard on the news that she had been stabbed I asked him to explain in Greater detail
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and he said that he thought she was stabbed from the front Kevin said that he just walked up to her
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and stabbed her once twice maybe more because there was a lot of anger going on Kevin has to use the bathroom and in
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fact got stuck in there due to a sticky door we joked about it he decided that next
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time he wouldn't close the door completely he also got another pop about this time
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after a couple minutes stretch I asked Kevin how well he knew the area where this had happened he told me that he
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often walks around at night when he can't sleep but that he usually doesn't go to Lee Road
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he added that most of the time he just walks near her house he added that he added that most of the
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time he just walks near his house or goes across the street and sits in the stadium at the high school
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he explained that he often doesn't sleep well and that he uses the time to think
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things out for himself I asked Kevin what kind of things he thinks about and he said that over the
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years he has had a lot of problems with dealing with kids at Shaker and that he often needed time to think things out
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Kevin said that happened when he would say or do something to others that bothered him
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he mentioned dealing with girls specifically but added that things were better now that he had his new life at
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college I then asked Kevin to describe the area and he said there was a sidewalk and
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some trees but he didn't remember it in much detail I asked him to try to remember what he
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could about the area to think in terms of the person who did this and to think what he would do with the knife
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Kevin said that he would get rid of it only an idiot would keep the knife I asked how he would get rid of it Kevin
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real quickly replied that would be easy there would be a lot of sewers around and if you throw it hard enough no one
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will ever find it still thinking in terms of the person who did this I asked Kevin where this
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scared person would go to wash blood off his hands or to change clothes he looked right at me and said that the
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way Lisa was stabbed this person didn't get any blood on him and didn't get any blood on their clothes and that he
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didn't know where they would go if they did I asked him if he was familiar with the
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lakes and parks in the area and he again said that he did not know where this person would go to wash or change
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I then asked Kevin to tell me how this person felt and how Lisa felt before during and after
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Kevin thought for a minute and said he didn't feel anything before because he was just walking around and didn't know
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it was going to happen Kevin said he then felt scared and angry because he couldn't stop what was
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happening to Lisa I asked Kevin how this person felt afterwards he paused and said
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guilty he added he thought the person felt a lot of guilt he then looked right at me and quickly
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at it that he thought this person would feel guilty because he Kevin always made
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himself feel guilty about things he couldn't control Kevin went on to explain it he felt a
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lot of guilt about Lisa's death and that he felt he should have been there to stop this person even though he knows
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logically that he shouldn't feel that way I asked Kevin how he thought Lisa felt
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he thought for a minute looked out the window and said Lisa knew him and that she felt surprised and that she looked
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real scared when she realized what was happening I asked Kevin what this person might
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have said to Lisa and he said that he didn't think this person said anything to Lisa
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we then talked about the possibility that the motive was robbery or rape he paused
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lean back on the couch and said that he didn't think Lisa had anything to steal that he didn't think that this person
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wanted to rape her that it was anger or something snapping and that he didn't think the person was a criminal I asked
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Kevin if he thought this person heard Lisa's screaming and he looked right at me and said of course he would
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he added that he is so close that the screams would be like yelling in your ear right now
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we then talked a little bit about what happens to people under stress I told him that there are policemen
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involved in shootings that don't remember hearing the shots he simply said he didn't believe it
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we then talked a little bit about how people believe different things he mentioned long arguments with other
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students over beliefs and added that he sometimes expressed an extreme view to get people to argue we talked a little
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about crimes and how different people have different views on what should happen to people that commit crimes
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I then asked Kevin what he thought should happen to the person who did this to Lisa
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Kevin had been very relaxed he sat right up look me right in the eyes spoke slowly and deliberately and
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said that the person that did this should be electrocuted should hang or should at least spend his life in prison
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he paused then looking away to the center of the room adding that if he is under 21 years old
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he should be treated like a juvenile because you don't have any real rights up until you're 21 years old anyways and
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that this person needed help this person needed guidance and that I should understand that the person didn't really
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mean to do this [Music] thank you [Music] I told Kevin that that was exactly why I
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came to Columbus that we shared concerns about the person who did this that I agreed with him that I thought Lisa knew
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the person who did this that I felt that during our investigation we had interviewed the person who did this
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during our investigation I explained to him that I felt that at some time I would be interviewing this
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person and that in order to help this person I needed to get through to him that I was from our juvenile unit and
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was used to helping kids get help that the reason I was involved in all the interviews was that I had convinced
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my boss that this was a kid who needed help and who was not a criminal I told Kevin that time was running out
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as our detectives put together a case to send a criminal to jail I asked for advice on how to convince
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this person that I understood that he needed help and that the only chance I had of convincing others was for this
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person to trust me I explained that someone has to present the case to the prosecutor and that how
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the case is presented determines what the person is charged with I added that I viewed myself as a
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neutral Outsider in the judicial process whose Duty it was to gather facts and put pieces together and present it to a
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prosecutor I explained that if the fact showed evidence of a cold-blooded killing then
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I would be forced to present those facts but if the facts showed that someone needed help then I would present those
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facts I told Kevin that my fear was that the person needed help and I would not be able to get through to him
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I asked Kevin for his help and asked if he thought that I could get through to this person
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and told him that I valued his opinion because I thought this person was one of his group of friends
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Kevin told me he thought that I could get through to this person but that it would not be easy because it would be
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very difficult for this person to admit what he had done I then asked Kevin how I could get
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through to this person Kevin told me that I would have to meet again and again and again with this
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person and that I would have to push them real hard and get them real emotional and force them to want to talk
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about what happened he added that he thought it would really be in the best interest of the person
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involved if I kept doing that to everybody until I got to the person so that he could admit what he did and get
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the help that he needed I talked to Kevin about how important this trip down here was to me
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I told him that after interviewing people most of the day I decided that I had to talk to him and that it couldn't
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wait I explained to Kevin that many people including my boss believed that Kevin
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had been involved in what happened to Lisa I told Kevin that I needed his help to explain this to my boss
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I asked Kevin to help me explain and I told Kevin that I needed help from him to explain his involvement to my boss
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Kevin became very defensive and said in a strong voice quote I didn't do it I then asked Kevin who he thought did do
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it and he said he was very scared for texts and that he thought text killed Lisa
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I asked if he thought text was capable and he said that text had been at his house Friday morning and that text had
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threatened to kill Dan dryford because he thought Dan dryford did it we then talked about whether Kevin
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believed that text really thought Dan driver did it and the conflict between that and Kevin thinking the text did it
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Kevin finally said he did not really think text did it but was not sure who else could have done it
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I told Kevin I had a lot of unanswered questions and asked him what he would say if I told him that someone had seen
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him out of his house that night Kevin quickly replied that no one saw me out of my house
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then he added it was too dark out there for anyone to see me he went on to explain that as he had
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explained to Detective mullaney he went to bed that he woke up and was unable to
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sleep and that he just got up and walked around the house he added that he had gotten a sharp pain
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while lying in bed about 12 30 am explained that this made him feel extremely guilty because he felt he
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should have realized that something was going on that he should have been out there to do something about it but that
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he stayed in his house he also said that he had talked to his next door neighbor and that his next
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door neighbor had had the same pain the same time of the night and that he thought that was kind of eerie because
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he quote thinks it was right about the time that somebody was doing this to Lisa Pruitt I told Kevin I was thinking
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about Loose Ends again and asked if there was any reason he might find his fingerprints on Lisa's genes Kevin got
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very defensive said his fingerprints are not on Lisa's genes and insisted that I
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take his fingerprints to compare it with any fingerprints on Lisa's jeans I explained to Kevin that a lot of
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evidence such as that was still being examined and until such time as we had fingerprints to compare something to we
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would not be collecting fingerprint cards from any of the suspects involved I explained that his answers meant more
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now before we got the evidence back I then told Kevin I wanted to think back to his description of what happened to
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Lisa I asked Kevin if he was familiar enough with the area that he could draw me a sketch of the area
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he explained that he often walks at night that he doesn't go toward Lee Road I then showed him four pictures of the
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area I asked if he could look through the pictures and see if they gave him a better picture of what happened he
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looked through the pictures then went back to the third picture of what was looking Northbound at the sidewalk on
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Lee Road where the bicycle was found stared and looked at that picture as we talked for the next few minutes
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I told him that I needed the truth from him that I needed him to be honest with me
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he told me that he was being honest and that he did not do anything to Lisa that
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he did not do it I told him I needed his help to resolve this either way I told Kevin that detective mullaney had
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told me that during the first interview he had offered to take a polygraph test Kevin stated that he was still ready to
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take the polygraph and added that he would like to take it at any time I explained to Kevin that it was
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important to do the polygraph when it was good for him I added that I appreciated his cooperation in the
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investigation and that I could arrange to set it up for next week tomorrow whenever he wanted
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Kevin asked how quickly we could get the polygraph operator down because he wanted to take it as quickly as possible
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I asked Kevin if he wanted to go back to his dormitory and get some sleep I also
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told him that if he wanted he was welcome to stay here he said that if we could do it early the
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next day he could just stay at the motel he then thought about the fact that he had eight o'clock classes and was
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concerned about missing classes and wanted to get the polygraph over with but didn't want to interfere with his
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classes I told Kevin that I had prepared for the trip and it brought a polygraph operator
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with me I explained that it was up to him but I told Kevin if he wanted to do it tonight I could go talk to the
00:30:34
polygraph operator and make arrangements for the polygraph I explained that it would take some time for the operator to
00:30:40
prepare the questions for the test Kevin said that he would rather do it now whatever it took so that he could
00:30:47
prove once and for all that he didn't do anything to Lisa Kevin appeared to be in
00:30:52
a very emotional state he was smoking heavily his muscles tensed up and he had a lot of intensity
00:30:58
in his voice I try to just talk more about other things for a while in order to get a more relaxed for the polygraph
00:31:05
we talked about polygraphs and police investigations then spent time talking about college and about shaker at
00:31:12
approximately 12 30 in the morning I asked Kevin if he wanted another pop he took a break and went to the bathroom
00:31:20
[Music] Kevin was out of cigarettes and I got him a fresh pack I told him I had two
00:31:37
options either bring the polygraph operator down and we talk in general about the setup or go to the other room
00:31:44
and brief the polygraph operator Kevin said he'd like a few minutes to sit and smoke a cigarette so I told
00:31:50
Kevin I'd be back in a few minutes I met with our officers in room number 516 and explained to our polygraph
00:31:57
operator Tom kahanski where I was at in the interview and we discussed key points for the polygraph
00:32:03
Tom kahanski asked if Kevin was arrested enough to take a polygraph I then returned to talk to Kevin while
00:32:09
the polygraph questions were prepared I asked Kevin if he had ever taken a polygraph before then he said no I
00:32:17
explained to him that he needed to be rested and calm and prepared to take the polygraph we talked about the late hour
00:32:23
and I again offered to let him sleep either at the motel or in his dormitory Kevin said that he felt good that he
00:32:31
felt relaxed and that he wanted to take the polygraph and get it over with I told him we had some time until the
00:32:37
polygraph operator was ready we just sat and talked about the adjustment to college we talked about how easiest
00:32:43
classes were and his preparation from high school and said that he was real excited and that he had a whole new
00:32:49
chance to get a new life started and was hoping that we would come down and get done with this and he wouldn't have to
00:32:54
deal with it anymore because he was really comfortable in his new life that he had started Kevin also talked at this
00:33:00
point in time about his roommate and how somebody at the college must do a really
00:33:03
good job of matching roommates because he and his roommate clicked right from the very beginning and he really liked
00:33:08
the guy a lot he had a nice girlfriend Kevin then mentioned that he had already met a couple girls at Ohio State and how
00:33:15
much better things were going at college he added that just today a girl had walked up and talked to him in one of
00:33:21
his classes without him ever having to talk to her or do anything and he didn't think about getting her number but he
00:33:27
was excited because he would see her in class the next day and would be able to get her number and she would be a new
00:33:33
friend to be able to talk to after we talked for a few minutes there was a knock at the door and it was Tom
00:33:38
kahanski I introduced Kevin young and Tom kahansky Tom kahansky then brought in the polygraph equipment and began
00:33:45
setting it up on the table I talked to Kevin and asked him if there was anything else I could do for him and
00:33:51
he said no I told him if there were any questions or problems that I'd be in the
00:33:56
other room and they could call me at about 2 A.M I left Tom kahanski and Kevin young in room 520. I went to room
00:34:04
516 to wait for the polygraph to be completed we again discussed the interview we were just discussing a number of
00:34:11
options and I contacted special agent Jim Wright of the FBI at home Jim Wright provided direction for the
00:34:17
interview if it should continue and reminded me that Kevin and I could be getting tired I decided to focus on the
00:34:24
polygraph as a break and use the next session as a new time of talking to Kevin about 2 45 AM when the polygraph
00:34:31
test was over Tom kahanski left Kevin in room 520 and came to room 516 to discuss
00:34:37
the results he told me that there was slight deception on all but two of the questions however he added that Kevin
00:34:45
had an extreme high stress heart rate that could be related to the interview or just being tired
00:34:52
Tom kahansi explained that he had not confronted Kevin with any of the results I took the notepad with Tom kahinski's
00:35:00
notes and questions on it and went back to room 520 to meet Kevin Kevin was still seated at the table
00:35:06
where Tom kahanski had conducted the polygraph I pulled a chair directly in front of Kevin and told him that I was
00:35:12
concerned I explained that he had not done well on the interview as I had hoped I explained to him that there were a
00:35:19
number of questions for which he showed deception I told him it was late and asked him if
00:35:24
he thought being tired had a lot to do with it Kevin said he thought that that must be it and that he was sure he was
00:35:30
telling the truth I looked him right in the eyes and asked him if he did it and once again he
00:35:36
replied I didn't do it I then reminded Kevin that we both had been up all day and then gave him some
00:35:44
options in terms of what he might like to do I told him that I was down here to learn
00:35:49
the truth from him and to help him and that I would do whatever he wanted to do I told him one choice was that I could
00:35:56
take him back to his dormitory and if he wanted come back next week to see him a second choice was to take him back to
00:36:04
his dormitory and see him again after classes the third choice was to continue to talk
00:36:10
Kevin said he wanted to continue talking and that he wasn't tired and felt that he could best help by continuing to
00:36:17
discuss the incident we took a short break Kevin went to the bathroom and I got him another pop
00:36:23
I then started by talking to Kevin about how important this was for me personally
00:36:27
to get through to the person who did this to Lisa and get them the help that they needed I explained that most of the
00:36:34
police department and most of the investigators had kids and that they were only out to solve a crime Kevin
00:36:41
said that he had heard a lot of things about Lucasville prison and that he had been thinking about that
00:36:47
and that it would be really awful for the person who did this to Lisa to have to spend the rest of their life in a
00:36:53
place like Lucasville prison we then talked in general about the need to punish adults and to help kids
00:36:59
we then reviewed how he heard about what happened to Lisa he talked about texts coming over to his house about his
00:37:05
mother walking him up about the fact that his mother knew because she'd gotten a call but that his mother didn't
00:37:12
tell him Kevin talked about how text was real wild and upset about the whole thing Kevin said he didn't think much
00:37:17
about it until he was at Arabica later in the day I told Kevin I had some concerns about
00:37:23
what he said to others about Lisa while he was at Arabica he said he only knew what text told him
00:37:29
I asked him what text told him and he said text told him that Lisa had been knocked off her bicycle bludgeoned and
00:37:37
raped I then confronted Kevin with the information I had that he was insisting that she had been stabbed and not beaten
00:37:45
and that he was insisting that she had not been raped Kevin denied that he said that and added
00:37:52
that maybe sometime later in the day he had heard on the news or otherwise that she had been stabbed and that she wasn't
00:37:58
raped and that he remembers at some point hearing that Friday night and that he figured that must be what the kids
00:38:05
were referring to I again started to focus on Kevin and I told him that I was scared and that I
00:38:12
thought he was involved and that I would really hate for something to happen to him like him going to prison for the
00:38:18
rest of his life I told him that I really urgently needed him to tell me the truth Kevin began
00:38:23
moving in a seat and looked around the room with quick darting eyes he then looked at me relaxed back in the
00:38:30
chair and told me that he was tired and then he needed a break he offered to sleep on the couch for a
00:38:36
couple hours Kevin said he wanted to get up talk some more and then take the polygraph again to prove his innocence
00:38:42
once and for all I discussed my concern that he be rested for the polygraph Kevin again offered to stay in the motel
00:38:49
room and asked me if I would help him in explaining to his teachers if he missed
00:38:54
the classes because he had a couple of quizzes coming up I told him I would help him in any way
00:38:59
possible I asked Kevin if he would rather go back to his dorm room and sleep and he said he was afraid he would
00:39:04
spend the rest of the night explaining this to his roommates I asked Kevin if it was a normal day and he was up till
00:39:10
4am the current time how late he would sleep he said probably until 10 or 11 A.M
00:39:17
I told Kevin that I would move my bag out of the bedroom room 520 is a two-room suite and that there was a
00:39:24
large Bed and bathroom and that he could have the sweet to himself for the night
00:39:28
I suggested that he just rest and go to sleep and wake up when he was ready to go for the next day Kevin asked me if he
00:39:35
could call his parents and I said sure and offered again to pay for the call he then thought about the time and said
00:39:42
he did not want to worry them by calling it for it in the morning and asked if he
00:39:46
could call when he got up I told him sure he then went into the bedroom in 520 and
00:39:52
closed the door I straightened up room 520 a little and went to room 516 and advised deputy
00:39:58
chief brochus that I was done for the night I left a note for Kevin a call room 510 if he needed something before I
00:40:05
returned it was 4 45 am and I retired for the night I got up about 8 am a little before 8 30 the phone rang and
00:40:15
it was Kevin he said he was up and ready to go I told him I was just taking a shower and
00:40:20
asking Pete had a chance to take a shower he said no but he would love to I told him there were towels soap
00:40:27
shampoo and everything in the bathroom suite and it was paid for and he might as well use it and to make himself
00:40:33
comfortable and I would be down shortly I got dressed and went down to room 520 as Kevin was coming out of the back room
00:40:40
he told me he was ready to go and he felt good after the shower I asked him if he would like to start with some
00:40:44
breakfast and he said that that sounded like a good idea there was a complimentary paper from the
00:40:50
motel I gave him the paper and asked if he wanted to look at it I asked him again if he still wanted to
00:40:56
take the polygraph he said yes he really needed to prove that he was innocent I told him I thought he'd be more
00:41:04
relaxed if Tom kahanski went out to breakfast with us he agreed I explained that Tom kahansky
00:41:10
had gotten up early and gone for a walk I left Kevin reading the paper for about
00:41:14
20 minutes until I located Tom I then returned to Kevin's room and told him that Tom kahanski would be along in
00:41:20
a couple minutes Kevin and I discussed the Middle East and a couple other current news items
00:41:25
until Tom kahanski knocked on the door we asked Kevin where he wanted to eat and he said anything was fine
00:41:32
as we walked out of the room door Kevin remembered that he had forgotten to call
00:41:35
home I started to walk back into the room and said I would charge the call to the city
00:41:41
Kevin thought for a minute then said no he'd rather wait until after the polygraph when it was all over
00:41:47
Kevin young Tom kahanski and I then walked to the area of the front desk where the motel restaurant was located
00:41:53
and we debated between eating there or at the Bob Evans next door Kevin said he liked Bob Evans so we walked next door
00:42:01
Kevin had a breakfast of coffee and orange juice and French toast we took about an hour to eat breakfast
00:42:06
relax and talk Kevin talked a lot about computer games and Dungeons and Dragons Tom kahansi expressed an interest in
00:42:15
Dungeons and Dragons and Kevin explained in detail about using the book being the
00:42:19
dragon master and being a player he said a lot of the kids asked him to be Dragon
00:42:24
master he added that it was tough to be a player after you have been a dragon Master because you knew the book
00:42:30
he said that a dragon Master had to come up with a lot of obstacles when players
00:42:34
had been Dragon Masters Kevin also talked about video games and Nintendo he was proud of the fact that he had
00:42:41
mastered Super Mario 3. he said that it took him like three hours to complete the first time but that after he played
00:42:48
it once he could do it in about 20 minutes he said he played Nintendo a lot but that it was really his brother's game he
00:42:55
jokingly said that he has to get along with his little brother or his brother won't let him play
00:43:00
Kevin said he realized he was a little old for some of these video games but said that they were a great Challenge
00:43:06
and a lot of fun we took our time and walked back to the motel Tom kahanski went to prepare for the
00:43:12
polygraph and Kevin and I began just talking about things in general I was working to have him very relaxed
00:43:18
for the test I asked Kevin if he felt pretty good about the taking the polygraph and he did we discussed again
00:43:24
calling his mother and he repeated that he wanted to wait until after the polygraph Kevin asked if we would be
00:43:31
done after the polygraph or if we could talk a little and I said it was up to him
00:43:35
and he asked if I could get some more pop and make sure that we had cigarettes so that we could take some time to talk
00:43:40
after the test he said he already missed his classes and basically the whole day was spent
00:43:46
and if we needed to talk about that we could Kevin also said he'd like to talk a while before he took the polygraph by
00:43:53
now he was about 10 a.m and we talked until about noon during that time we discussed the
00:43:58
incident again we talked about how Kevin learned about the incident and who his friends are I asked who his best friend
00:44:05
was and Kevin mentioned a letter he was writing to John Hilliard he explained that he was writing the
00:44:11
letter but probably wouldn't send it because he expected to see him in a couple of weeks
00:44:15
he added that in the letter he told John how well things are going at college he also said he wrote about his roommate
00:44:21
and his roommate's girlfriend he said he wrote about her PDA public displays of affection Kevin added that she didn't
00:44:29
really bother him but that he just kind of jokingly said those kind of things because people expected to hear that
00:44:34
from him we then got to talking about computers he said he had an Apple computer at home and had just learned to
00:44:40
write and print on it but that was about all he added that he had to give the computer to his sister a ninth grader at
00:44:47
Shaker before he left to come down to Columbus I then asked him when he had come down to Columbus
00:44:52
he said he brought all of his stuff on the 9th of September to try out for band he said that he changed his mind about
00:44:58
band left his stuff in the dormitory and went home I asked him why he changed his
00:45:04
mind and he said it was a lot of things he said that he was nervous about being away from home that most of the kids had
00:45:10
been down there practicing for two weeks he added that band also took a lot of time and was only worth two credits
00:45:17
he also said he was never really into marching band that he enjoyed music but not marching
00:45:24
he seemed nervous discussing band and changed the subject he mentioned a couple of girls that had
00:45:29
come up to him in classes and talked to him he added that they just came up to him and that he did not have to talk
00:45:35
first he went on to talk about how glad he was to be away from shaker he was excited to
00:45:41
have a whole new life and was glad to be away from the problems he had in Shaker
00:45:46
he felt the kids in Shaker were tough and related that he had a lot of friends but that they make him feel like an
00:45:52
outcast I asked if he was referring to the GGC Kevin lafton we then talked about the GGC girls and boys and about
00:45:59
prom night he brought up the after prom party and told me that he has a tendency
00:46:04
to build up his expectations and that he really felt angry about what the girls did to him he brought up Arabica and
00:46:11
said that he basically hung out there for the summer I asked him how Dan and Lisa fit in he
00:46:16
described Dan as a best friend of his for a long time and that during the time that Lisa was in town he and Dan spent a
00:46:22
lot of time together he went on to say that between Lisa being back in town and Dan being in the
00:46:28
hospital that he really hadn't seen Dan much lately I then asked Kevin what clothes he brought back from Columbus
00:46:34
for his last week here I explained that we did not find any of his clothes when we were at his house
00:46:40
he said all of his clothes were in the clothes shoot I told him the kids all remember him
00:46:46
wearing one set of clothes he said most of the week he wore a skateboarder t-shirt blue jeans and his
00:46:52
moccasins he said on the cool nights he wore a blue plaid flannel shirt he asked
00:46:58
if that matched what we knew and I said basically I thought for a minute and then asked if he saw Dan the day Dan got
00:47:03
out of the hospital Kevin explained that even though he considered Dan a best friend that he had
00:47:09
not felt it important to try to get in touch with Dan or to talk to him the day that he got out
00:47:15
Kevin said he was aware that everybody at the high school was excited to see Dan and that Lisa and Dan had been
00:47:20
around together and that Lisa was very excited to see him we talked next about techs Ken Workman
00:47:27
Kevin was in a very talkative mood during this time period And I was basically listening and letting him talk
00:47:32
around noon Kevin said that he felt good that he was ready to take the polygraph
00:47:37
I left him in room 520. I told him that I had to go to Tom kahanski's room and talk to him about setting up for the
00:47:44
test at this time I learned that we had a problem and had to be out of the room by
00:47:48
2PM Jim Brosius had made arrangements for another room if needed also while Kevin was waiting for me in
00:47:56
520 I called Jim Wright from room 516. I discussed my concern that Kevin felt safe here and was prolonging the
00:48:04
interview I felt that Kevin did not want the interview to end he felt that Kevin felt
00:48:10
safe with me we agreed that we had to confront him and end the interview Arrangements were also made with Tom
00:48:16
kahanskin to run the polygraph and that if it came up clearing Kevin young of any involvement that he should discuss
00:48:21
that with Kevin and that if it came back with obvious deception that Tom kahansky
00:48:26
should confront him with the deception and be prepared for the fact that Kevin might look like he's about ready to
00:48:32
admit and that at that point that Tom kahanski should stop the confrontation and leave the room and let Kevin think
00:48:39
for a few minutes until I returned to the room to complete the confrontation I then went back and talked to Kevin and
00:48:45
told him that either we had to be done by 2PM or that we had to move to another room I gave him the option of taking the
00:48:51
test right away or having lunch first while Tom kohansky changed rooms and set up his equipment in the other room Kevin
00:48:58
thought lunch sounded good and asked if we could go for pizza specifically Pizza
00:49:02
Hut if there was one around I went to ask Tom kahanski to change rooms and Kevin asked me to get some
00:49:09
more coke and cigarettes in case we needed to talk after the polygraph we again talked about calling home and
00:49:16
Kevin said he wanted to wait until after the polygraph test I saw Tom kahanski and return to the
00:49:22
room Kevin and I then walked to the front desk asked if there was a Pizza Hut and
00:49:27
got directions to One nearby on High Street we agreed to split a pizza and Kevin ordered a medium pepperoni pan
00:49:33
pizza we took our time and again talked about college and college life and being
00:49:37
away from home and he talked about how it was scary it was basically casual conversation
00:49:44
Kevin kept coming back to talking about his friends from Shaker and how good it felt to be away from shaker
00:49:50
we returned to the motel about 1 30 pm and went to room 421. as we walked there Kevin said that if
00:49:58
the test didn't work well he would be willing to spend another night he added that he felt very comfortable
00:50:05
talking and felt confident that if we talked long enough that we would be able to resolve everything
00:50:12
when we got to the room Tom kahanski was waiting there for us Kevin was very relaxed he asked if he
00:50:19
could use the bathroom first because of the large Coke he had for lunch Kevin went into the bathroom I met
00:50:25
briefly with Tom and told him I thought Kevin was very relaxed and ready for the
00:50:30
polygraph when Kevin came out of the bathroom he was noticeably more tense than he had just been moments earlier
00:50:37
he was all tensed up and rubbing his hands together nervously I asked Kevin if he still wanted to take
00:50:43
the test and he said he was ready to go I wished Kevin good luck and told him I would return after the test at a few
00:50:50
minutes before 3 pm when the polygraph test was complete Tom kahanski left Kevin by himself in room 421 and came to
00:50:58
room 516 to discuss the results he said that he ran two tests that he had clear deceptions on most of the
00:51:06
questions dealing with Lisa that he confronted Kevin with a deception and that Kevin got tears in his eyes but
00:51:12
said nothing Tom kahansi said he had confronted Kevin directly about his involvement with Lisa
00:51:18
and Kevin again said I didn't do it at about 3 pm Jim Brosius and I went into the room Kevin was sitting by the
00:51:27
polygraph machine on a chair with a concerned almost teary look in his eyes I asked Kevin if he remembered Deputy
00:51:34
Chief brocius and Kevin said he did I asked Kevin if he remembered Deputy Chief brocius and Kevin said he did I
00:51:42
told Kevin that due to the pressure on this incident that they had sent deputy chief down to Columbus deputy chief
00:51:48
brocius then left the room I asked Kevin if he minded if I open the drapes and he
00:51:53
said that that would be great I sat down directly in front of him got very close and told him I was concerned
00:52:00
I sat down directly in front of him got very close and told him that I was concerned and a little scared about what
00:52:05
happened he said he knew the machine couldn't lie but he didn't understand why the machine
00:52:10
was doing this to him I paused for a couple minutes and began to slowly explain to Kevin the situation as I saw
00:52:17
it I told him that if he really was not involved in what happened to Lisa that things would work out
00:52:24
I then told him I was afraid that he was not telling the truth I told him I really wanted a chance to
00:52:31
help him I repeated that the person who did this to Lisa needed me both as a friend and as someone to present
00:52:37
objectively to the prosecutor exactly what happened I repeated my feeling that this person
00:52:43
really needed help that this person really didn't mean to hurt Lisa and that this person didn't deserve to spend his
00:52:50
life in prison or to be executed I told Kevin I had a number of concerns about his involvement with Lisa I told him I
00:52:58
wanted to go over them with him so that he understood why the pressure was on us
00:53:02
to resolve his involvement I told Kevin that I had concerns about how he found out about Lisa and his reaction to her
00:53:09
death I explained that he said text told him that Lisa had been pulled off her bike
00:53:14
hit in the head murdered and raped yet kids at Arabica told us that by 1 30 in the afternoon that he Kevin had been
00:53:24
insisting that she had been stabbed and had not been raped I told Kevin that we didn't understand why watching the five
00:53:31
o'clock news listing Dan as a suspect made it obvious to everyone that Dan didn't do it I told Kevin I was worried
00:53:39
that he kept saying text did it yet he told us that text wanted to kill Dan for doing it I told Kevin that I was worried
00:53:46
that he had made repeated threats against Dan and Lisa I told Kevin that I was worried about his relationships with
00:53:52
girls I read from his journals quote I'm in the popular crowd but I don't like them or quote I speak on a lonely
00:53:59
Saturday evening or quote my luck will change for the better in the next few months between high school and college
00:54:05
each time he asked for and I showed him the paper that I was reading from I told
00:54:11
him I thought the affection between Dan and Lisa bothered him and I read again from his papers quote it really pisses
00:54:17
me off when I see couples paired off I am worth absolutely nothing he replied that that had all changed and I reminded
00:54:24
him what he had said about his roommate's girlfriend's PDA public display of affection
00:54:29
I told him I had concerns about his fantasies with girls and again read regarding prom night
00:54:35
quote it is not a bash it is three girls and myself and they are ditching their boyfriends so they can spend the night
00:54:42
with me I asked if he really thought they were ditching their boyfriends on Prom Night
00:54:47
he continued to look at me but did not respond I told him some of his thoughts bothered me like quote I will kill all
00:54:54
undesirables I must I am hated by virtually all my classmates males think I'm a loser and psychotic a scar on the
00:55:03
school's mere existence females despise me as if I was the ugliest person on this planet which of course I am
00:55:10
I read the one final thought of his quote If I Ever Lose Control of myself withdraw into an alternative world and
00:55:19
let animal instincts take over I handed Kevin a copy of that Passage that was I handed Kevin a copy of that passage
00:55:28
that was found at his house paused then told Kevin that you can't stay in this alternative world that the truth must
00:55:35
come out I told Kevin that I had enjoyed the time with him that it had been a long day and
00:55:41
that I had to get back to the real world I told Kevin that he had to get back to
00:55:45
the real world too I pause for a minute and told Kevin that I felt that he had a number of options I
00:55:52
told him that I felt confident that if he was truthfully not involved that things would work out
00:55:57
however I also told him that if he was involved in any way in what happened to Lisa that he could never Escape it
00:56:06
I said I felt that until he shared the truth with someone who could understand him
00:56:12
that there would be something deep down inside him that would never let him get away from this
00:56:17
I told him that until this was resolved he couldn't go back to Shaker because everybody in Shaker would think of him
00:56:23
as being the suspect I added that he couldn't go back to college because everything in college
00:56:28
would Now remind him of Lisa I told him he couldn't go back to anything until he told the truth
00:56:34
I told him he had to clear his conscience and tell the truth Kevin reacted he leaned forward he got real tense and
00:56:44
he looked me right in the eyes with tears welling up in his eyes and deep emotion in his voice he said he could
00:56:49
have told me he did it spent a couple years in the hospital then got on with his life but he said quote I've got to
00:56:57
tell you the truth and this is the truth and if I don't tell you this I don't know how I could ever live with myself
00:57:03
he paused for a couple minutes then slowly he said I'm scared I feel suicidal I have
00:57:11
nothing to live for I feel more suicidal now than I ever have since I was hospitalized two years ago
00:57:18
he said that he quote needed to be in the hospital he said that for the first time in his
00:57:23
life he realized that he really needed help and that he needed to be in the hospital he said he couldn't go anywhere
00:57:29
but a hospital I told him that I thought he ought to call his parents and talk to
00:57:33
them about getting in a hospital he said no he couldn't call home he said no he couldn't call home because
00:57:40
his mom wouldn't believe him and she wouldn't let him go into the hospital he added that he really needed to be in
00:57:46
a hospital and away from his parents he thought for a minute and asked if he could call his doctor
00:57:52
I told him we could we walked over to the phone he had a card in his wallet for Dr Melvin
00:57:58
chavinson he gave me the number and I dialed it and charged it to the city credit card
00:58:04
Kevin asked if he could talk to his doctor privately and I agreed I started to walk out of the room until Kevin told
00:58:10
me he got the answering machine he left a message on the answering machine at about 4 10 pm and said
00:58:16
something to the effect of this is Kevin I need to talk to you I'll call you back
00:58:20
in a little bit Kevin and I talked for a little while and I told him that I thought he should leave a message with a
00:58:25
number for the doctor to call Kevin felt confident his doctor would call during his next break between patients from 4
00:58:32
50 pm to 5 PM so we left a second message at about 4 20 p.m while we were waiting we discussed a number of the
00:58:39
points we discussed I again asked Kevin what he thought should happen to the person that did this to Lisa he replied
00:58:46
that the person should kill himself because he had nothing to live for and if the person didn't kill himself then
00:58:53
he should be killed Kevin told me he really had nothing to live for and just needed to sit
00:58:59
he sat on the bed and was silent for a while he talked a little more about making
00:59:03
friends and how hard it was he said he had a deep pain inside and that it was so deep he couldn't tell me
00:59:10
he added that he wanted to tell me what it was but that he needed help and he couldn't say it
00:59:16
he then looked at me and said he wasn't even sure of what it was as of 505 PM Dr
00:59:22
chavinson had not called so I called Shaker PD and got detective clima as he was leaving the station
00:59:28
I asked him to go knock on the door of Dr shavenson's office 23360 Chagrin Boulevard Suite 105. Dr shavingsen
00:59:36
finally called about 5 15. Kevin answered the phone but asked if he could talk privately
00:59:42
I waited outside the door after a few minutes Kevin came to the door he told me that Dr chavinson could make
00:59:49
arrangements to get him help in the hospital however Dr shavenson told him he had to call his parents something
00:59:56
about insurance Kevin then asked if he could call his dad instead of his mom because his mom
01:00:02
wouldn't believe him Kevin tried but got no answer for his dad Kevin hesitated and didn't want to call
01:00:09
his mom I told Kevin that I felt he knew what he wanted and if he was strong enough I was
01:00:15
sure his parents would support him Kevin asked me if I would visit him and help him through this and I promised I
01:00:22
would I again told him he really needed to call his mom because I couldn't stay with him forever and I couldn't leave
01:00:29
him alone he finally called his mom and I again stepped outside the room Kevin came to the door after a minute
01:00:36
and asked for a pen and paper after another minute he returned to the door with tears in his eyes he said he didn't
01:00:42
know what to do that his mother didn't want him to talk to me and wanted him to call an attorney
01:00:47
he showed me the paper with the attorney's name and number on it I told him the decision was his but suggested
01:00:52
that if he wanted his parents help that he should follow their advice given them called the attorney they
01:00:59
talked for a couple minutes then Kevin came outside the room and told me that the attorney wanted to talk to me
01:01:05
the attorney asked me where Kevin was and I told him we were in room 421 of the Ramada Inn on Olentangy River Road
01:01:12
the attorney also asked me not to ask Kevin any more questions he then spoke to Kevin again when Kevin
01:01:18
got off the phone he told me he was to meet the attorney out front and that I was not even to walk him out Kevin the
01:01:25
tears in his eyes asked if this meant I couldn't visit him in the hospital and I simply told him that I needed to
01:01:32
make those arrangements with his parents and attorney I then walked Kevin to the elevator he
01:01:38
gave me a hug as we waited for the elevator he went down to the first floor I went up to the fifth floor and
01:01:44
prepared to drive back to Shaker Heights [Music] after the detectives were unable to
01:02:07
force a confession from Kevin young at Ohio State University they returned to Shaker Heights more determined than ever
01:02:15
that they had the right man they needed a real expert to help them break Kevin the next time they spoke
01:02:24
enter renowned psychologist Dr Murray Myron a professor at Syracuse University he agrees to consult with them on the
01:02:34
case but first he has some questions about Dan dryford yeah I understand that and and indeed
01:02:43
that's a very powerful Alibi um that the father indicates that Dan was in fact in his room and that they
01:02:49
both heard the screams together yes that's that's very powerful there is some I must say that we we had
01:02:58
some difficulty still however with Dan's subsequent Behavior he after they go out to the edge of the
01:03:05
property and and I'll go back into the home apparently satisfied that the source of the scream has left the area
01:03:10
or whatever and that they can't find anything unusual apparently Dan re-exits the house to find the bicycle
01:03:18
and then in fact without telling his parents um calls 9-1-1 on his own uh to report what he believes to be now
01:03:25
suspicious circumstances but then when the parents hear the Pruitt's outside on the lawn you know and they're
01:03:32
distraught and here are all these police vehicles the crime scene being established that Dan goes to bed right
01:03:40
falls asleep but while the parents are waiting for the plane clothes detective to come in and interview them huh right
01:03:46
I found that I found that unusual um and someone disconcerting but what we decided here was that dick and I decided
01:03:55
that well that's not that's academic right because it's not Dan that we're going to be interrogating it's it's
01:04:02
Kevin and whether or not he's the guy or not we want to give the full shot to to
01:04:06
use the best psychological coercion we can [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you [Music]