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Heat up [Music] here. [Music] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
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for listening. I'm your host, Nick. And with me, as always, a man that likes his
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eggs sunny side up, his juice freshsqueezed, and he takes his coffee like his women, both full of alcohol. is
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the captain. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's good to be seen and it's good
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to see you, you crazy people. Welcome back to part two of the Johnny Gosh case. And happy Halloween to you.
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[Music] It's morning time in the garage, Captain. So maybe by the end of the show
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we will be drinking Jade IPA by Foothills Brewing in the cigarette capital of the world. Beautiful Winston
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Salem, North Carolina. This is a wonderful, wonderful beer. Let's give it four and a half bottle caps out of five.
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So very close to total five there. Right. This is a gem of an IPA using bold citrusy Pacific Jade hops. And Jade
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IPA was brought to us by Rebecca in Great Falls, Virginia and Renee in Alequipa, Pennsylvania. That's fun to
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say. Next, we have Kim in Waxhall, North Carolina. Also, there is Rachel. Waxaw wax off. There's Rachel in Los Angeles,
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California. Rachel says, "Cheers and ask if we would like to share a slanket." And finally, we have Catherine in
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just a couple days and then shirts are done. So, get your I'm calling this our flag shirt. So, get the True Crime
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Garage flag shirt at true crimegar.com. And that's enough of the business. That's right. Gather around, grab a
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chair, grab a beer, and let's talk some true crime. [Music] And just like the captain said, we are
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doing part two of the Johnny Gosh case. Uh this is a boy that disappeared when he was 12 years old. Uh and I'll do a
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quick little like uh John Madden recap of the first half for you. Right. Mhm. Okay. So on uh September 5th, 1982,
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Johnny Gosh, he was 12 years old. He lived with his mom and dad and his brother. And uh he went out early in the
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morning to deliver the newspaper. And one of the other paper boys, he was he was walking with his wagon, pulling it
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be beside him. And he one of the other paper boys, they had a spot where they would meet up and they would collect
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that day's paper. Well, this was a Sunday, so it's a big paper. And while he's walking towards the paper stack,
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he's approached by a vehicle. And this other paper boy sees Johnny talking to the driver of the car. Um Johnny
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continues on his way to go pick up the newspapers. And again, this vehicle pulls up to now where there's several
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boys and opens up the car door and he's asking, the driver is asking for directions.
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Now, um, shortly after this, Johnny's going to continue on his paper route and the boys are going to go about their
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business and do their paper routes. And some have reported that they saw a second man. Um, not everybody is on
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board with that, but at some point a vehicle, the same vehicle that that they had seen before at the newspapers is
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seen just kind of, you know, squealing tires and rushing out of the area, burning through a stop sign. And Johnny
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Gosh, his his wagon still full of newspapers, is found on the side of the road with his little dog, Gretchen. And
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Johnny may or may not have ever been seen again. At this point, the parents just call the cops. The cops are telling
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people in the community they believe it's a runaway. They think there's no there's no crime scene is what they say.
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They can't find one, so therefore they think it's a runaway. Uh the parents also call the FBI. The parents are
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talking to anybody that will listen, doing as many interviews as they can and then it kind of goes cold for a while
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until there's a rest by a guy named Paul Basi. So, there was this pretty wealthy
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business in Omaha, Nebraska called the Franklin Credit Union, and it was run by a guy named Lawrence E. King. And um
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Paul Bonasi says that there was all kinds of parties going on at this place and there were children involved in
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having sex with adults and this was going on because of the relationship of of Lawrence King with the Boys Town
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organization. Um and they were abusing these children. They were they were pretending to do nice things for them.
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That's the allegation. The allegation is that they were abusing children. And so
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this is Paul's story. But not only that, Paul says, you know, I was involved in the abduction of Johnny Gosh, that I was
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there the day that Johnny was taken. And uh we, you know, we went around in this
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this sex ring, this child sex ring would abduct these young boys or young girls and take them and sell them off to
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wealthy individuals, perverted individuals. And that this was all going on. Uh and some of these people involved
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in this thing were were were were known people were you know yeah people of power and success. Yeah. And again those
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are just all allegations. Uh but some of Paul's story checks out. Now these charges against King would later be
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dropped. Uh they found that there was no merit to these allegations and uh he would go to jail on some other charges I
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believe like tax fraud or or something or money laundering or something like that.
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um never getting charged with the crimes of the the sex crimes. So, so that's kind of weird. But then Paul uh Benasi
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also had a civil suit against King and some other people and he won the civil suit. None of that money has ever been
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paid to Paul. Yeah. And there was also quite a bit a few things that happened between the time that Johnny was taken
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and that the you know Paul Bonasi comes onto the scene and those were things that we didn't get to get to in the
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first half. So uh the first thing that we should should note would be the dollar bill right captain? Mhm. So in
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1985 a woman in Iowa she receives a dollar bill and change. She's at like the grocery store. So this is 3 years
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after the abduction. Yeah. And she Well, let's not say abduction. Let's say from
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the date he went missing. So, she receives this dollar bill and change. And she reaches out to the Gosh family.
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And uh she says, you know, I I got this dollar bill and on it it says somebody had wrote on the dollar bill, I'm alive,
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and signed it Johnny Gosh. Mhm. And so she needed to get this to the parents and and does so. And they use this to
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help with their investigation. Here's here's some evidence that Johnny could be alive. You know, obviously anybody
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could have wrote that on a dollar bill, but Norine is going to say that that looked to be Johnny's handwriting. Yeah.
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Well, of course she is. I mean, that's what keeps Hope alive, right? But what they what they did do uh which I think
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is a good thing is they they went to a handwriting analysis um expert and had it compared and and they believe that it
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checks out with you know with some merit there. Okay. So it's not just a mother a
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grieving mother looking for hope. There is some you know but how much do I believe in handwriting analysis? I don't
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know. Again, kind of a cruel joke to write on a dollar bill, but you're also think about this way. 12-year-old boy
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goes missing. Who has who who gets a lot of dollar bills? 15, you know, 13 year olds to 18
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year olds and some kid doodling at high school pulls out a dollar bill and writes something silly.
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It gets back to the mom. It's It's kind of freaky, but I think there's some explanation on is it real? I I don't
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know. Well, and the thing too is handwriting analysis is not used in court uh for criminal cases because
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there is no like general school or general schooling for this to to be certified as a handwriting analysis
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expert. Yeah, I think there's some online test that you can take. I could probably get like a diploma like that.
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Well, like from Jamaica or something. You might have to study for a while. You probably just send $50 and in and some
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shipping hand and handling and they mail you mail you that diploma from Jamaica.
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Yeah. I mean, I I don't know. I mean, I don't know if this is um a dollar bill from from Johnny. It it makes the story
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interesting. You know, the other thing though here too, Captain, that I wondered about is when, you know, like
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you said, this is 1985. Johnny went missing in ' 82. So, even if it was Johnny that wrote that on the dollar
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bill, who's to say that he didn't write it 2 days after he disappeared, you know, and that that this is just now
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surfacing for some reason. Um, I had wondered about that. Dollar bills don't stay in circulation really normally that
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long, though. I do. Well, I didn't know that. But one thing I was trying to do with the documentary, I watched the
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documentary, Who Took Johnny? And uh, you know, they showed the dollar bill, the actual dollar bill in the
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documentary, and I paused, I paused the documentary, and I got right up on the screen trying to figure out, you know,
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look at the dollar bill real close and everything. And I wanted to see the date that that dollar bill was minted. Um,
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because I, you know, that would give us some kind of idea. You know, if this was
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a dollar bill that wasn't printed until 1984 and it was wrote somebody wrote that on
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there, then that's that's even more interesting to me than if it's a dollar bill that came out in 80 or 81. Um, you
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know, cuz I wanted to I I wondered, did he write on this 2 days after he was abducted? Did he write on it a week
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before they found this dollar bill? What did he find? Did you see could you see?
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I could not see the date. I found nothing. I was hoping to find a larger print of this picture on the internet,
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but I was unable to do so. Which raises a hair of suspicion to me. If if you really think this is some sort of
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evidence that proves that this kid's still alive, then why wouldn't I mean, you got hundreds of pictures posted of
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Johnny on the internet. Why not post this as well? Yeah. Uh what they do post if you look for Johnny Gosh dollar bill,
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one of the things that people are trying to point out is the owl. Have you ever seen the owl in the dollar bill? So if
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you look at a dollar bill, normally the right hand corner where it has a one. Mhm. There's a kind of a dip down and in
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this dip down is an ow. And a lot of people have been talking about this lately. Or maybe it's just my crazy ass
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talking about this lately cuz if you look at a dollar bill, like I said, kind of like in the sloop of the of the one
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in the right hand corner is a little out. And what does this mean? What does it mean? Uh well, there's this there's
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this area called the Bohemian Grove. I don't know if you ever heard of this. I've heard of Yep. So the idea is that
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that these rich powerful people meet at Bohemian Grove and um world leaders and they have these weird retreats and they
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have almost these like satan satanic ritual type uh events and and they it's like a mock sacrifice. They claim they
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don't sacrifice anybody, but if you watch the any video footage on this, it's it's it's a mock. They're
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sacrificing a child. So, it's a little strange. And Paul Bonasi talked about Bohemian Grove. I I'm not for sure, but
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I I believe that's one of the places he had mentioned about these parties that would take place that were fundraisers
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and things like that, right? Which which would have been, like we said, uh 85 or
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so. Um Yeah. And just while we're on the subject though, I want to go into this for just to touch on it for a second. He
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would say that that at these parties, typically what they would do is they would get these children organizations
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like the Boytown and and different groups where they would bring in kids and have them work the party and that
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they probably helped out with things like serving and um you know, waiting tables and and cleaning up, busing
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tables, things of that nature at these these these fundraiser type parties. And it wasn't until after the parties, you
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know, that that the the party would go on and it would be these successful people with and sometimes with their
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families there with their wives or, you know, and this would be a legit fundraising party, but afterwards is
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when the when the bad stuff went down, you know, that that some of these guys came in from out of town and they would
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stay for for the next day or two. Um or sometimes these parties after midnight got got crazy and got uh way out of
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hand. Yeah. But see what's going to happen is somebody's listening right now going the captain is crazy conspiracy
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captain and that's not true because this is not a conspiracy people. The Bohemian
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Grove exists. Yeah. And but here's what's odd about the whole Bohemian Grove for me is when officials have
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denied it and denied it and denied it and denied it and it wasn't until somebody got video footage and said,
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"See, you know, at some point it's not conspiracy. It's just what what is happening at these events? Is it is it
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is there some dark twist after the fundraiser is over? I don't know and there's no proof of that. But we have
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allegations. There's allegations. And you know, when the feds when they raided the Franklin Credit Union, they came
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across like I think it was like over like 20,000 documents of of strange things. Um, and who knows what's on
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those documents. This could all just be things of embezzlement and money laundering. It could be all I mean,
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that's that's what they went to jail for. Yeah. And it could be that's all that these documents could say. We don't
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know why because they've sealed those documents and we're not going to be able to review those and I don't I don't
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think that they've even put a release date on them. Uh this is stuff that's probably that's what the government does
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all the time. You know what I mean? Think about uh the the Kennedy assassination, the files that were
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supposed to be released. I remember watching um um what's his name's movie? The JFK movie. Yeah. And thinking Oliver
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Stone. Oliver Stones movie. and thinking, "Oh, it's a couple years from now. We're going to these documents.
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We're going to know everything." No, they don't they don't release these. They push the date back. Who Who are
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they trying to protect? I don't know. Are they Are they trying to cover up some uh sick uh child sex ring? I don't
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know. Or is it just this money was tied to this organization that was tied to somebody that was bigger? And yeah, can
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money stop this stuff? Can money stop this information coming out? Oh yeah, we see it all the time. We're seeing it
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more and more now. Uh even with this election uh and and I think as uh hackers get uh more experience uh we're going to
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have more transparency, but it's not going to be because uh the officials are giving it to you. It's going to be
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because people want to show uh people's true colors. And I think we're going to see that more and more often. So, real
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quick back to the dollar bill, right? So, yeah, we kind of got sidetracked there, but this conspiracy, this case is
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very easy to get sidetracked. And actually, we had an email somebody was, you know, pointing out a lot of things
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that we did not cover regarding uh the Franklin Credit Union and some of the and this this sex scandal. Um, but we're
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not we're not here to cover the sex scandal. You could do two or three hours on just the on Lawrence King, the
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Franklin Credit Union, and that sex scandal. Just like we said in the first episode, we're doing we're doing a show
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on Johnny Gosh. FYI, some people were scarred because you called him Larry King. You scarred him. Like listeners
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are scarred. Well, his name is Larry King. Lawrence E. King. But it's not the Larry King that that we know from from
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TV, from CNN. Lawrence E King. So anyway, back to Johnny Gosh, right? We have the dollar bill. Mhm. Now, I' I'd
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wondered too, you know, if well, if I'm if I'm being captive, right? How does this dollar bill this dollar bill gets
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into circulation somehow? You know, it was if let's pretend that Johnny did write on the dollar bill. Now, it had to
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get into circulation somehow. Did he give it to did he purchase something with this dollar bill? Or did how did it
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get into the store? Uh how did it did it end up at a bank? And then the bank, you
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know, they're making change for the store. Somehow this dollar bill, if we can believe it came from Johnny, it got
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from Johnny to the store into the hands of this person that got it in change. Now, if I'm Johnny and I'm able to write
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a little note like that, why wouldn't I just say why wouldn't I just tell somebody, "Hey, I'm Johnny Gosh and I
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would like to go home, you know, um this this creep guy captured me and and I want to go home." That's a lot easier
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said. I mean, look, we we know for uh a fact in a lot of these cases where somebody's abducted, no matter what age,
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they they will talk about how, yeah, I was just in this place for a while, then all of a sudden now I'm outside and now
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we're going to the grocery store and now we're going to fast food and and now I'm
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like in society and why well, why don't you ever tell anybody? Who knows? I mean, who knows what the captor is
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telling them? They could say, "Look, you're you're a 12-year-old boy. You and you seem to be ve very close with your
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mother and your father." Mhm. And they say, "Hey, look, yeah, you run away. I might not be able to find you, but I
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know where your parents live. I'm going to kill your whole family." Right. And that and I think that's enough of a
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reason or enough um you know, depending on your relationship with your parents, but uh to me, that would freak me out.
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And so, yeah. Okay. we're we're at a McDonald's or or wherever we're at and I have this opportunity. I have to give
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this money to the cashier. Pull out a pen real quick. You know, there was a rumor of of a boy coming forward and
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saying, "Hey, I'm I'm Johnny Gosh." You know, and and I'll tell the story best that I can because like I said, it may
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just be a rumor. I couldn't find any, you know, multiple people uh come, you know, reporting this story. But well,
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this episode is is really just all the interesting things around this case. Again, with the dollar bill, is it is it
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him? Is it not him? We don't know. It's hard to say. It's hard to say. Yeah. I mean, I think if Norine believes it's
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it's a sign from him, then possibly. But that's the idea of this episode is just
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bring up this interesting stuff. Whether it's true or not, you know, that's that's for the listener to determine.
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Now, this story actually took place about 6 months or maybe a year after Johnny went missing. And from best I can
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tell, a a boy uh roughly the same age as what Johnny would have been at that time, you know. So now he would have
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been about 13 13 and a half. Uh approached a woman in a I believe it was a gas station parking lot or some kind
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of small business parking lot and said you know very quickly ran up to her and said I'm I'm Johnny Gosh. Uh this man
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has taken me or these men have taken me something to that effect. And uh the rumor is that then two men grabbed the
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boy and and left with him in a vehicle. Mhm. Well, and if you watch the documentary, this is not in the
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documentary. Yeah. And I have a hard time believing I think this is probably a rumor because there's there's a few
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things missing from this. Okay. Like have you ever have you ever seen a a situation where you're out and you
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question the situation? Especially when it's like like a child like all the time. I'm I'm questioning the situation
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right now. No. Like I mean if I go to like one time I went to a restaurant years ago and I I walked past this boy
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this little boy that had a black eye and he's sitting there with his parents and
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I couldn't quit watch staring at the parents all the time while I'm eating. I'm trying to see if they're going to be
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mean to the boy. You know what I mean? So what I'm getting at is I think I think that most people react and behave
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in similar manners. And that my my approach would be if if some kid came up to me, whether I believed it was Johnny
00:22:05
Gosh or not, if some kid came up to me and said those things, I would pay attention to the vehicle that these
00:22:12
people got into, right? I mean, I'm grabbing the kid and saying, "You want to get this kid? You got to come through
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me." But even if what I'm getting at what I'm getting at is even if I didn't believe the boy for whatever reason, I
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would still be paying attention to what's going on. I I would I wouldn't just say whether I whether Right. But
00:22:29
whether or not I believe him or not, I'm just taking that kid. But what I'm saying is this is why I have a hard time
00:22:34
believing the story because there's nothing going along with it. Whoever whoever said this, they didn't say,
00:22:38
"Well, it was it was two white men." No, there's no description of either man. There's no description of a vehicle.
00:22:45
There's nothing other than some kid ran up to me and said, "I'm Johnny Gosh." And he was about the same age. And then
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two guys took him. Okay. The only thing is what was the age of the person that said this? Because what if it was a
00:22:57
16-year-old? Then then I think the the story has more weight. This kid came up said I was Johnny Gosh. I was like,
00:23:05
"What the what the shit?" You know, and then he was Johnny Gosh. Maybe the person didn't know who it was, right? I
00:23:10
don't even know who it was. But I think if there was any validity to this story,
00:23:14
uh Norine being so um uh active in this case, I think if there was any validity to it, she would have fished that out
00:23:22
and we would have seen that uh presented on the documentary. Who took Johnny? That's a good that's a good uh thing
00:23:29
right there, Captain. You're you're exactly right. Norine, if she believed the story, we would hear this story a
00:23:35
100,000 times. That's who Norine is. She would go out and she would scream this from the mountaintops and yeah, which is
00:23:41
great. I mean, that's what all parents should do. And I really think that her actions in this case have really changed
00:23:48
the way some parents have uh reacted for when their child has been abducted. And
00:23:53
I I think she's set a good uh example even though some people, you know, there's a lot of critics out there that
00:24:00
think that she's crazy. But um and I wanted to mention my opinion of that story because that's like a to me that's
00:24:08
a caveat to our listeners. Okay, a lot of our listeners are armchair detectives and you know web sleuths and whatnot.
00:24:15
They're trolling the internet. They're beautiful people. They're not trolls. They're beautiful people. Well, they're
00:24:19
they're hunting the internet for uh clues and and trying to help out is what they're doing. Uh but and a lot of times
00:24:27
you will see these different stories and different eyewitnesses accounts on all these cases that we do. One thing that I
00:24:33
look at when when I'm reading through these these eyewitness accounts is I'm looking for someone that's telling a
00:24:39
story with specific details because they're more likely to be telling the truth when they're able to give you
00:24:45
specifics rather than just this very vague foggy story of of a of a boy randomly running up to me in a parking
00:24:53
lot. Uh, so that that's just my caveat to to the armchair detectives out there. All right, let's get into the next uh
00:25:00
interesting tidbit after this quick beer break. And we're back. Cheers. Welcome back. Um, so we have a few things to
00:25:12
talk about with Mr. Johnny Gosh, right? We talked about the dollar bill. We talked about the rumor of the story of
00:25:18
the person in the parking lot. Uh during, you know, in the first episode, we also talked about how the police
00:25:25
weren't overly excited about investigating this case and and Norine Gosh has been very uh you know, she's
00:25:33
she's complained often and very loudly about how lazy them. Yeah. Yeah. So uh well they seem I mean look when you have
00:25:41
a search party of you know 30 some people 30 to 40 people and and the chief of police comes out and says hey this is
00:25:49
nothing more than a damn runaway. Well and after after some time uh this was police chief Orville Clooney. Uh he
00:25:58
seemed to not he's the one that came out and said the kid's just a damn runaway.
00:26:03
Um he ends up resigning from his job. uh there's an investigation that goes on into his acts. Um and he after about 6
00:26:12
months into this investigation, he resigns. Um the way that this this investigation is brought about against
00:26:20
Orville Clooney is 18 police officers under his command uh start complaining and they're filing written complaints uh
00:26:29
from everything from from Orville drinking on the job to fixing tickets to racism and as well as him interfering
00:26:38
with an investigation uh regarding a case that involved his son. Well, and in the documentary, they also point out
00:26:46
this argument that happened uh because, you know, the Gosh family said, "Hey, these, you know, this chief thinks this
00:26:54
is just a runaway, so they hire a PI." And the chief of police was pissed off about this, so he came and and was
00:27:01
screaming at them in their own house. Um, so yeah, he was let go again. And now this leads to the speculation that
00:27:11
this is this bigger conspiracy, this bigger sex trafficking ring, and that maybe this chief of police wasn't
00:27:19
involved, but knew some people that were involved, and that was the reason why he
00:27:24
was from the get-go saying, "Hey, this is just a runaway." One one other story that's interesting regarding Norine Gosh
00:27:31
and the uh private investigators that they had hired that the Gosh family hired and the police chief getting all
00:27:38
all up in that business. Uh the the the private investigator wanted to run a little bit of surveillance. They were
00:27:46
going to park some vehicles and surveil the area where Johnny went missing from.
00:27:52
Now, they wanted to do this on a Sunday at about the same time. So they would be
00:27:57
able to see what kind of cars, what kind of people were going through this area at that day and that time. Now this this
00:28:04
would be if you thought if you thought that this was a crime of opportunity that you just you weren't watching
00:28:11
Johnny that you were you weren't specifically looking to abduct him. It's just you were you were you know in the
00:28:18
area. Yeah. I don't think anybody was going, "Hey, here's this Johnny Gosh kid. We're going to take him." I think
00:28:24
it's more the idea that, hey, we know paper boys are out. I think you're right. And I think that's what the
00:28:30
private investigator was on to and he parked his vehicle and they wanted to surveil the area and the police chief
00:28:38
had uh police officers basically harassed them so they couldn't do their investigation. And I believe Norine said
00:28:45
that they even may have arrested the uh the private investigator. So, just just another thing to to really tick you off.
00:28:54
I mean, if if they're not going to investigate the case, at least let the Gosh family do it, right? At least let
00:29:01
them try to find their son. Don't get in the way. Uh if you're not going to be helpful, at least back off. Yeah. Again,
00:29:06
but like I said, this goes with this idea that who did the police chief know? Mhm. And maybe he knows somebody that
00:29:13
is, you know, hey, this is your job. You're getting a kickback or whatever it is. I think he didn't like Norin Gosh is
00:29:19
what I think it is. I think he had a problem with her and I think he I think he was unprofessional. We see these
00:29:25
other acts of drinking on the job, ticket fixing, racism. I think he was an unprofessional dude and he let it and he
00:29:33
let his feelings, his ill will feelings about Norine Gosh get in the way of doing his job or letting his other
00:29:39
officers do their job. No, I just think he I think he had a problem with a lot of people and then that came out and
00:29:46
then obviously he had problems with a lot of people. If you get all these written complaints enough where you're
00:29:51
going to resign. So I I don't think it was just singular towards Norine. Now let's fast forward to 1997. Do you got
00:30:00
anything to present before 97? Because something big happens in this case in 1997. Go for it. We have Naren Gosh. She
00:30:08
is no longer living with her husband. Uh, Big Johnny. Big John is what we were calling him. Uh, about 10 years after,
00:30:17
uh, Johnny went missing, the they ended up getting a divorce. Yeah. Most uh most
00:30:24
the time when a couple has a you know a child even you know die or go missing it
00:30:31
it normally is kind of a a kind of a spear you know and and then it's something that a it's hard enough
00:30:39
to remain a couple just during normal times let alone to have a a kid go missing. Mhm. Yeah. A lot of times the
00:30:47
marriage will not survive uh because of this. But they're divorced and she's living by herself
00:30:55
and this is in uh March of 1997 and she says this was very early in the morning about 2:30 in the morning. She's getting
00:31:03
a knock on her on her door and a persistent knock she says and to the point where she gets up answers the
00:31:11
door. Now, uh before answering the door, she looks outside and there's she sees two men and um she recognizes one of the
00:31:22
men's eyes and says, "You know, this this he's got the same eyes as my boy." And this man introduces himself as
00:31:30
Johnny Gosh. He says, "Mom, it's me. I'm It's Johnny." She lets these two guys into her home and they and it's not
00:31:37
clear if it's because sometimes it's reported that uh it's Johnny older a little older version of Johnny and maybe
00:31:45
a boy or younger but depending on what website you read or where you find this report from uh it's not very clear. No,
00:31:56
actually it's two completely opposite stories. Right, Captain? I've read one story where it's you said Johnny and a
00:32:02
boy, right? And then the other story I've read was it was Johnny and a man and it looked like Johnny was
00:32:10
the other man was like giving him the nod on things he was allowed to say and not to say, you know, so kind of two
00:32:17
very conflicting stories regardless. Norine says in both accounts that the other man was, whether it be a boy or a
00:32:24
man, was not introduced and did not speak very often. Um, but Johnny spent I've again with the stories I've heard
00:32:33
as little as an hour. I've heard as as long as maybe two and two and a half hours. Um, but he spent a considerable
00:32:41
amount of time in Norine's home discussing what had been going on and and that he was yes, he was involved in
00:32:49
this. He's been a prisoner in the sex ring and that they will that he's afraid he can't go out and live his life again.
00:32:56
he can't return to his family because they've made it clear to him that they will kill him, that his life is in
00:33:01
danger, and possibly his family's life, and he's not even supposed to be there talking to her at that exact time. Yeah,
00:33:09
this is very strange. And this comes out um because she's at this um court hearing and they're asking Paul Basi's
00:33:17
court hearing for the civil the civil trial. Yeah. So, they're asking her all these questions and and you know, you
00:33:24
know, I I think it comes out, have you seen Johnny or anything since his disappearance? And and then that's when
00:33:30
the story comes out. She claims too that you know, it was like you can't tell anybody because they'll kill me. Mhm.
00:33:37
So, that's this is the story a lot of, you know, uh friends of mine that follow our show, you know, I I I kind of put
00:33:46
out feelers, you know. So, we're talking about this Johnny Gosh case with some of
00:33:50
my buddies and and and one of them, the coach from Ohio, uh was telling me this is a story that he just doesn't buy,
00:33:57
right? Uh to him, it doesn't come off um genuine. Uh I I don't know what to make
00:34:04
of it. I mean, I don't buy it either. Well, it's weird because one, you you don't tell anybody for years.
00:34:11
Two It was about two years. Yeah. And then Yeah. I mean, you shouldn't lie under oath. You shouldn't lie ever, but
00:34:20
you're going to then say it, you know, two two years afterwards. You're going to bring it up in court. That's going to
00:34:26
be printed, you know. So, uh, the coach from, uh, up north was telling me he thinks it's just a a way to keep the
00:34:35
story, keep some momentum of the Johnny Gosh story going. Um, because the more you can talk about it, more more likely
00:34:42
you can get answers. And that's kind of what he believes Norine was doing. I think uh I think a couple things
00:34:50
happened here, Captain. Okay. Um one thing that they didn't actually I don't know if they said it in the documentary
00:34:58
or not, but I I don't believe that they did. Noren was actually she was on national TV shortly before this
00:35:04
happened. So this was not just a random knock at the door one night. Uh she was on national TV. I believe it was the
00:35:11
Lisa show. You remember the Lisa show? It was one of those like afternoon talk shows. Nope. Uh it's kind of a ripoff of
00:35:17
Sally Jesse Raphael. So she's on the show and on the show, this is national television. She says, "Noren gosh, I no
00:35:26
longer live at at our old home, Johnny. Our your parents have gotten divorced. I
00:35:31
still live in the area. This is where I live. This is my address if you need to reach out to me. If you ever want to
00:35:38
come home, if if you can ever escape your captives." Um, here here's the problem. You It's very
00:35:46
tough, man. You I understand that she wants to help her son and that that she's doing everything she can, but if
00:35:52
if you're going to put your address on national TV, there's a decent chance that some a-hole might might pull a
00:35:59
prank on you. Um, I don't know that that that's what went down, but that's my suspicion. I think somebody, some jerk
00:36:07
and his friend probably knocked on her door, probably said, "Hey, it's Johnny. I'm home." You know, and I think that's
00:36:14
more far-fetched than just to think that Norine just made it up. Possibly. Possibly. I think regardless, I mean, of
00:36:22
course, uh, that's what I think happened. I think that somebody pulled a prank on her. I don't think, but I don't
00:36:28
think that if that is the case, I don't think that she believed that it was Johnny. I think what happened was she
00:36:33
got on the stand and they're grilling her and they're saying, you know, well, why are you even testifying in this in
00:36:40
this trial? Well, because this is what happened to my son. He's he's been abducted in this sex ring and he's being
00:36:46
traded and sold and Well, how do you know that that happened? How do you even know he's alive? Well, I he came to see
00:36:53
me. And exactly what you said, the the other problem with this the biggest problem with this story is the reasons
00:37:00
for keeping it secret are the same reasons that this story cannot be true. In my mind, you you didn't tell anybody
00:37:08
for two years or two and a half years. You kept it to yourself because you were afraid for his life. Yet you weren't
00:37:15
afraid enough to to to not say it on on stand, you know, it and like you said, it's released in the papers. Then she's
00:37:22
on TV on Sally Jesse Raphael months later and she's telling the story again. She wasn't on Sally Jess. Was she on
00:37:28
Sally? She was. Yeah. Nice glasses. Um I don't know. The the tough thing about this is with Norine, I feel that she's
00:37:38
authentic. I think she she comes to off to me as authentic. Uh she comes off as very caring, very intelligent. Uh, I
00:37:49
don't know how much I buy this story, but but that's what makes it difficult because it seems like uh she she you
00:37:56
know, she's a good person, so I want to believe her. Uh, I I just don't know how
00:38:00
much that story makes sense to me. No, you're exactly right. She I agree. She's a very good person. She's done great
00:38:07
things for trying to find her son. She's refused to let this case on top of that
00:38:13
quiet, right? But you put it's not just she turned it in from not only is she still trying to find get answers about
00:38:23
her son, she has done work to help thousands and thousands of other families there. There's kids that go
00:38:31
missing every day and for whatever reason and and because of her effort, she has changed the landscape of this.
00:38:41
Well, and if you're at home or wherever you are, thanks for listening. Um, you and you're going, "Well, how can they
00:38:48
defend Noren Gosh?" Well, all right. Just hold on here a second. Hold on. You know, let's keep in mind she I don't
00:38:54
think anybody's saying that. We got good listeners. No, I know. But keep in mind,
00:38:57
she's a victim. She's lost. All right. She's she's been lost uh mentally and emotionally because of this horrible
00:39:04
thing that's happened to her. I don't think she's been lost. But in the process, your words, not mine. In the
00:39:08
process, you know, she did change. Remember, there was a 72-hour waiting period for the police to investigate
00:39:15
Johnny's disappearance. The reason being is back then in the early8s, they didn't
00:39:20
distinguish the difference between an adult, a missing adult and a missing child. There was no difference legally
00:39:26
to the police. So, what she has done uh she has made that change in Iowa that has change that has also created change
00:39:36
in other states. now where the police and FBI have to distinguish the difference between adults and children.
00:39:43
And now when there's a sus suspected abduction or a missing child, they are to investigate immediately. And we all
00:39:51
know that we all know from having done this for so long that the first 48 hours is the most crucial to any missing
00:39:58
person's case out there. You're more likely to find them alive if you can find a lead or find them within the
00:40:04
first 48 hours. So she's made that's a huge change. And then the other thing that we talked
00:40:09
about as well, she gets involved with the Walsh family and other families of missing children and they formed the
00:40:15
National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which is which has gone on to do great things. And since
00:40:20
the induction of that um organization, the the the success rate of finding children and finding them alive has gone
00:40:30
up greatly. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, so hands down, uh, what what whatever you think of her, I look, I I don't think
00:40:39
anybody's at home going, "Why are you defending her?" I think it's not now. I'm joking. All right. So, yeah. And
00:40:47
then there was some pictures found. So, you want to talk about those pictures? How about you tell us about the
00:40:51
pictures? Well, there's a series of pictures. Really? Yeah. So, this was in uh September 1st of 2006.
00:40:59
Um, Noren Gosh says that she received some anonymous anonymously receives some photographs and there's a few different
00:41:08
photographs like you had said. There's one of it looks like some some young teenage boys tied up on a bed or a
00:41:14
couch, right? Um and then there's one of a single boy uh that appears to be tied
00:41:20
up. Now, it's the single boy in the as far as the documentary goes. Um and there's a lot of Norine interviews out
00:41:27
there. I recommend watching watching most of them. Uh there's always something interesting in her interviews.
00:41:34
Um especially if especially if you're as fascinated about this case as I am, but
00:41:39
she does say that the the boy, the one boy, she can see what appears to be that birthark on on the chest that she that
00:41:47
we spoke of. Johnny has a discoloration uh on his chest kind of shoulder area. But what what's but here's what's
00:41:56
strange. So there's a group of three boys in one picture. She says the one on the right is Johnny. If you look at the
00:42:03
pictures of Johnny that went missing and this boy similar, but it's like it's hard. It's a stretch. It's hard to make
00:42:11
out. Well, what what happened was the lead investigator of a case in Florida comes out and says, "Hey, we know what
00:42:20
this picture is. We know these boys are and that boy is not Johnny Gosh." So, there's there's a situation where a
00:42:27
mother is saying, "That's my boy." And it's we have uh factual evidence to say no, it's not. Now, there's this other
00:42:34
boy and there's tons of pictures. If you type in Johnny Gosh um and just do a image Google search, this boy shows up
00:42:43
over and over. Now, here's where I stand on this. Now, this is again Norine says,
00:42:48
"This is my boy." Now, this boy is not accounted for, and if you watch the documentary, they talk about that. What
00:42:55
I find interesting is that Big John says it's that's not my boy. Yeah. He doesn't believe that's his son. Um it's
00:43:06
it's very difficult because you know as you change that your nose changes a lot, right? Mhm. So that that
00:43:17
it's like and now look, I've only seen a handful of pictures of Johnny, you know,
00:43:22
like the paper boy picture, the famous paper boy picture, um, where he has his little satchel and he's going on his
00:43:28
route. If you look at that picture and then you look at this boy, it's hard for me to tell
00:43:36
because kids age, you know, the way they age, it's hard to tell, you know, uh, you know, I was a a stepfather for two
00:43:44
boys and I don't see them often and when I see pictures of them now, they've changed quite a bit. Yeah. I mean, I can
00:43:52
tell it's them, but there's so many features that are just a lot different. And so I think maybe a mom would know
00:43:59
that. You would see it in the eyes. I think that, you know, the eyes don't change. Yeah. Um, so maybe that's what
00:44:06
she's seeing. I don't see it. And like I said, for for the record, the the Big John doesn't think so either. I I
00:44:12
thought that the the picture of the boy that was unidentified. I thought that the hair and and the eye
00:44:19
color was close or or the same. Um, but the boy looked a lot thinner to me, which I I understand people can lose
00:44:28
weight, especially if you're being held captive. Um, but the father pointed out the the size of the foot. Um, that he
00:44:36
believed that Johnny would have had bigger feet even at the time of his, you know, it we're guessing that the
00:44:42
pictures are taken later, obviously. So, his foot should have grown rather than your feet don't shrink. Well, what's
00:44:47
weird about uh this unidentified boy, right? If it's Johnny, we don't know. But uh Paul Bonasi talks about a
00:44:56
branding mark that these captors put on people, people that are in charge of the
00:45:01
sex ring. They put a brand mark. Now, when he said this, when he came out and said this, people thought he was crazy.
00:45:07
But then people came forward and showed their branding marks that they had on them. in not all the pictures, but later
00:45:16
on I think the pictures that they think are older uh h this kid now has a branding mark on. So I I think that's
00:45:24
interesting that that um is a direct tie to Paul Bonas's um claims. And it's also
00:45:32
interesting that the kid is never identified. You know, usually, you know, that's that's we had these same
00:45:39
questions when we had when we did our photograph interview or our photograph episode. Well, and because that he was
00:45:45
never identified, that means you can't rule it out. It's it's very possible it could be Johnny.
00:45:51
It could it could be Johnny or at the very least it's another kid that's been taken. And, you know, Yeah. And and for
00:45:58
all record, I have no record of any other parent, you know, or group of parents that are coming out saying, "No,
00:46:05
that's our boy. That can't be Johnny cuz that's our boy." Uh, so I don't know. Again, and like I said, I think the
00:46:12
mother would know, you know, to be honest with you, cuz you know, sometimes men are dumb. Uh, I believe that the,
00:46:19
you know, the mom would have a better um way of identifying him than than probably the father would.
00:46:27
Yeah, I can agree with that. Uh, but Norine certainly wants everything to be Johnny, you know, the the dollar bill,
00:46:32
the the person on the doorstep, the the the photographs. Of course she does. Um,
00:46:37
and and and rightfully so. Um, but I think I think here's what here's what I think is going on here, Captain. I think
00:46:45
that we have we probably have a situation where the Franklin uh credit union was involved in some kind of child
00:46:52
sex scandal. I can believe that. Do do I believe Paul Bosi that he was abused? Yes, I believe that he was abused at
00:47:00
some point. I don't know that I don't believe he has multiple personalities. I don't believe he was there when Johnny
00:47:07
Gosh was taken. I think Johnny Gosh was probably taken by an individual that's a
00:47:13
pedophile that was hunting in the area for uh for young boys, 12, 13 year old boys that he could abduct. And and so
00:47:24
let's go over some things here regarding statistics. So in the state of Iowa, now
00:47:28
one thing I will say, the state of Iowa has a fantastic website for their cold cases, um which includes missing
00:47:36
persons. Uh here in Ohio, we have a database that you can go to and it's it's unsolved homicides, but I don't
00:47:42
believe that I couldn't I don't know of one that you can find for missing persons in the state of Ohio. Yeah,
00:47:47
there's one out there. Oh, there we go. So, uh but Iowa has one as well. and what some stats that I pulled off of
00:47:54
there. So from well the the na the nationwide database you can search by state and city from n from the year 1930
00:48:05
to uh currently uh the state of Iowa has 137 missing kids and adults. People that
00:48:13
have never been found anywhere or or reported themselves as still being around and living elsewhere to this day.
00:48:21
Now, that doesn't seem like a huge number when you go all the way back to 1930, but the fourth person listed on
00:48:28
there disappeared in 1972. So, what does that mean? That means we have 133 missing kids and adults between the
00:48:36
years of 1973 and 2016. In the area of De Moine, Iowa, we have 35 in that time period. And in Pulk
00:48:48
County, we have 37 in that time period. So that's almost one missing person a year since 1973,
00:48:56
right? Well, I mean, some of that stuff before the 70s is it's just not being reported. You know, you'd have a a
00:49:03
16-year-old. You got to remember the times, too. And and the in the 30s and the 40s and 50s and stuff like that,
00:49:10
there was a lot of people that left home at 16. Mhm. You know, because you're adult at 18, most people were expected
00:49:16
to leave the house. Now, now we have situations where, you know, people move back from college, you know, they're in
00:49:22
their mid20s, even their early 30s living with parents still, but back in the day, I mean, 16, 17 year old run
00:49:30
away. They're they're almost an adult. They'll take care of themselves. And that stuff wasn't reported. Um, now if
00:49:37
there's going to be a lot of people going missing in one area, I think that leads to the idea of some kind of sex
00:49:43
ring, you know what I mean? Sex trafficking, human trafficking. we we you know this is this is something like
00:49:50
in 82 when they're talking to the police chief and they're talking about a pedophile they didn't even know what the
00:49:55
hell they're talking about right and then in the last 5 years I mean 5 10 years ago you say human trafficking
00:50:03
people go what the what are you talking about and this is a reality that we're just becoming more aware of you know so
00:50:11
but I I think we're I don't think we're dealing with a with a with a sex child sex ring here that that's plucking
00:50:19
children off the streets of De Mo, Iowa. I do I don't think that's the situation.
00:50:23
I think the situation is we got one bad dude out there that that uh has done this multiple times. Um you know, we a
00:50:33
couple of the cases from that area. Okay. So, we have Eugene Martin, aged 13. He went missing August 12, 1984.
00:50:42
Well, one of the kids that went missing um Norine actually got was contacted. She
00:50:50
was contacted before had um a lead um I don't know who gave it to her, but it was basically the idea that a another
00:51:00
kid is going to be taken. This is the date and this is roughly the time. And then another boy went missing. And then
00:51:08
Norine uh got in contact with the family. Well, the family was then told beforehand, "Don't talk to Norin Gosh
00:51:16
about this stuff. She's crazy." Uh but but she also had a date and time of of when a kid's going to go go missing. And
00:51:25
a kid went missing. Well, I don't know anything about that, but I want to talk about Eugene Martin's case. Okay. So, he
00:51:32
goes missing August 12, 1984. This would be 23 months after Johnny goes missing.
00:51:39
Uh, and this is a story that you're going to say, "Well, that sounds familiar." Because it it's the same
00:51:45
story. Eugene Martin leaves his home approximately at 5:00 a.m. that morning to deliver the newspaper. He goes out on
00:51:52
his paper route. Now, there's multiple eyewitnesses, again, in this case as well. Some report between the between
00:51:59
the time of 5:00 a.m. and 5:45 a.m. that Eugene Martin is seen talking with a cleancut white male in his 30s. Other
00:52:09
persons report having seen the same activity between the time of 5:45 a.m. and 6:05 a.m. Now, between 6:10 and
00:52:20
6:15, his bag is found, his newspaper bag is found, and it's got 10 papers in it.
00:52:26
This is found by the route manager. You know, you talked about your district manager in our first episode. Well, what
00:52:32
happened was they were starting to receive phone calls of people not having received their paper. The district
00:52:37
manager goes out and he finds the paper bag and he picks up the papers and he just delivers the rest of them, right?
00:52:44
Um it it's later determined that Eugene Martin is missing and we have a problem here, right? So, what what happens
00:52:52
shortly after that is that the authorities send out a nationwide bulletin to be on the lookout for a man
00:52:59
between the ages of 30 and 40 years old who is 5'9 in tall, clean shaven with a medium build. Well, what do we see here,
00:53:09
Captain That saw on in in Johnny Gosh's case? 5 foot n 5'9 in tall. That's the same height that that the eyewitnesses
00:53:19
describe in the Johnny Gosh case of the suspect for that case. The problem with that suspect is he didn't he who wasn't
00:53:26
out of the car, the one that was driving the car, right? But they were able to come up with with a a general height, a
00:53:33
general height. And we're seeing that they're using I was saying it's a lot easier for me to tell you how tall you
00:53:38
are if you're standing up than when you're sitting down in a car. I 100% agree with that. Now, we have another
00:53:44
case. We have Mark Allen, age 13. We're okay. Johnny is 12, almost 13 years old.
00:53:50
Eugene Martin is 13 years old. Mark Allen, 13 years old. He goes missing March 29th, 1986. This is less than two.
00:54:00
This is a year and 7 months after Eugene Martin goes missing. Now, this is a uh Saturday evening. It's the day before um
00:54:10
uh Easter and Mark is at his mom's home and he's leaving to go meet some friends. He's going to walk and meet
00:54:18
some friends and they might even take in a movie or something. According to what
00:54:21
he told his mother, he's last seen leaving the home. His mother doesn't suspect that he ran
00:54:27
away because uh the boy says as he's leaving, "Save me some pizza. Uh I'm going to be hungry when I get home
00:54:35
tonight." Yeah. Um he he walks toward down to the street over to some bushes and he turns and he waves at his mother.
00:54:44
His mother waves from the window and that's the last time she sees young Mark Allen. Uh he's he's never seen again.
00:54:54
Yeah. I mean when I was watching the documentary I think th this I don't know why this story it really disturbed me on
00:55:02
the idea that I mean here's this you know 13-year-old kid and uh you know think about you you get pizza night that
00:55:10
was like a big thing in my household growing up normally Fridays you got the TGI you know that the shows would come
00:55:17
on with and all that stuff and uh step by step there was just a lot of bad shows fun, but you get your pizza and
00:55:25
you hang out with your family or maybe have a friend over. So, I think maybe those childhood memories, just the whole
00:55:32
idea where he's going to go hang out with some friends and says, you know, save me some pizza. I don't know why,
00:55:38
but that to me, I just am a little disturbed by all that. We have three boys within a a a 4mon, sorry, four-year
00:55:47
time period that go missing. Two of them, they're out on paper routes at the same time of day. Um, right. But you're
00:55:53
the one that keeps on saying we don't have a sex trafficking ring, right? I I don't think we have a ring at all. I
00:55:58
think we have one guy that's going out and going, "You know what? I know that there's young boys delivering the
00:56:03
newspapers on the weekends. I I'll drive to the neighborhood and there's two of them. Yeah. And abduct one. Um, you
00:56:09
know, and all these cases take place on the weekend. Um, two of them very similar in my opinion. We see roughly
00:56:17
the same time period uh where it's about a year and a half to twoyear gap between
00:56:22
each each of these cases. And we're also seeing victims that are all the same age. They're the same race. They come
00:56:30
from similar backgrounds. They're all in the same area. These are all boys from De Moine, Iowa. Right. But to me, that
00:56:38
leads more to the uh idea that this is what type of person we're looking for or this is what type of child we're looking
00:56:45
for. And there's a reason behind that. And I don't I don't think it's just one person. I mean, I I I think it's kind of
00:56:53
silly to dismiss everything that Paul Bonasi is saying and all the claims that he all the claims that he has made that
00:57:00
have been backed up. I mean, he talks about, oh yeah, when we take these kids to this house in Colorado, all that
00:57:07
house is there. But again, there's no vehicle. There's no Almelio. There's, you know, he he tells us a lot of things
00:57:14
that are backed up, but nothing in regards in direct regard to Johnny Gosh. He tells us about all these other things
00:57:21
that are going on, but nothing that has to do with the abduction or the sale of Johnny Gosh. Nothing in that thing is
00:57:29
back. What he does tell you and what he and the reason why Norine believes that he was involved is the idea that he
00:57:36
brought up things like the the scar on his tongue, the scar on the back of his leg, things that were not reported in
00:57:44
the paper. And this is the reason why Norine believes him. Again, how did he just make that [ __ ] up?
00:57:51
I I don't think so. I think that's a far stretch. I mean, you're going to try to
00:57:54
tell me that, you know, you just met a kid one time and, you know, they have a scar on their tongue. But did did Naren
00:58:01
or did investigators or anybody lead him into coming up with those to to coming up with those descriptions? No. But
00:58:10
look, nobody nobody believed him when he said, "Uh, hey, by the way, there's this
00:58:14
cabin or this house that we go that we take these kids to in Colorado." And everybody thought he was full of [ __ ]
00:58:21
They drive out to Colorado. Oh [ __ ] there's a house there. Mhm. And he goes, "Oh yeah, by the way, uh in the back
00:58:28
there's this uh secret little passage and there's going to be these tunnels dug and cuz that's where they put kids."
00:58:34
Yeah, but that has that has nothing to do with Johnny Gosh's case that Well, no, but what I'm saying is that it
00:58:40
proves that there's validity to what he's saying. Just some of his story and and not only that, but oh, there's this
00:58:46
branding mark that they make and then a bunch of kids come forward. We don't have a problem with sex trafficking. we
00:58:52
have we this is a problem and look I mean I don't know I to me uh maybe it's just random but uh and maybe
00:59:04
Paul Bonasi is you know brought up this Johnny Gosh case for for no reason and uh and maybe some people led him down
00:59:12
the path on on the Johnny Gosh case but as far as um you know a lot of his story
00:59:19
checking out I mean I'd say at least at least 50% of it does. Yeah. And there's some people that would point out that
00:59:26
we've never, you know, because we've never found Johnny's body, that that's further proof that he was abducted and
00:59:32
was thrown into this check, this child sex ring um and kept underground and captive for all these years. But, you
00:59:40
know, take a minute and review the the Jacob Wetling case. Uh the the 11-year-old boy that went missing in
00:59:48
1989. Uh he we end up learning, you know, almost 30 years later that he was abducted at gunpoint uh that that he was
00:59:57
held for not very long at all. He was sexually abused and assaulted and then killed shortly after his abduction and
01:00:04
they and he was buried in a remote location. Um, unfortunately when we read about cases like that and investigate
01:00:12
cases like that, we're reminded that when people go to lengths of of such of burying people that they can remain
01:00:20
hidden from us for a very long time, if not if not forever. Uh, one I would love
01:00:26
to know if anybody has questioned Danny Henrik. He's the one sorry Danny Heinrich. He's the one that uh was later
01:00:34
uh that we learned abducted Jacob Wetling. I know it's in a different state, but it's not terribly far from
01:00:40
one another. And this guy, he he comes off to me as a serial killer. I don't think that this Jacob Wetling was a
01:00:46
one-time thing for him. Um another person of interest in this in Johnny's case and the other two boys, um Eugene
01:00:55
Martin and Mark Allen, uh would be a a man by the name of Roger Mattis. Uh he was somebody that lived about an hour
01:01:03
away from uh West De Moines. Uh and back in 1966 when he when Roger Matis was 24
01:01:13
years old, he attempted to abduct a 12-year-old newspaper boy. Uh the boy was going around on his route and he was
01:01:21
collecting the bills. You know, he's you remember you'd have to knock on the door
01:01:25
and say, "Hey, you forgot to pay me for this month's forgot to pay me for the last six months." Yeah. And really, they
01:01:32
didn't forget to pay. I think they just didn't didn't want to pay. They would always say, "I'll get you next week."
01:01:37
Yeah. So, he goes to he knocks on this Roger Mattis's door and Roger Mattis tries to grab the kid and and pull him
01:01:45
into the house. Well, the kid gets away. Uh he's grabbed by the shirt and he ends
01:01:49
up slipping his arms out of the shirt and so he can get away from this creep. Um yeah, I know this is about a it's an
01:01:57
hour away. It's 1966. It's not not 1982. But let me describe this Roger Mattis for you. He's described as dark brown
01:02:06
eyes with black hair and he's 5'8. Uh he would have been in his early 40s when the boys went missing. Uh there is a
01:02:15
problem with this though. he would have been living in Chicago in the 80s. Uh this again is not terribly far for him
01:02:23
to drive. The other thing we have to consider here is his parents and his grandparents still lived in Iowa. So he
01:02:30
would travel there often to see his family. Uh now with the Johnny Gosh case, we have an incident where we
01:02:37
believe that the suspect had a vehicle that had Iowa plates. So this guy, Roger Mattis, would have had Illinois license
01:02:44
plate on his vehicle. Yeah, if he is driving his vehicle, if he was driving his vehicle, he could have potentially
01:02:49
been driving his parents. Uh like we saw that we saw that with the the Atlanta child killer. Uh he could have been
01:02:56
driving grandma's car. Um who knows? The the interesting thing here too for me is
01:03:04
Mark Allen went missing the night before Easter. Okay. Uh Johnny Gosh, now he went missing on a Sunday morning, right?
01:03:13
September 5th, Sunday morning. What happens the first Monday of every September? There's a national holiday.
01:03:20
So, what I'm getting at is for two of these abductions, right? It's most, you know, it you're more likely to be
01:03:27
traveling to see your family when there's a holiday. You see what I'm getting at here? You picking up what I'm
01:03:31
putting down? Mhm. Uh so, if he if he were in the area, I would be very concerned. And he's somebody that I
01:03:37
believe that they should talk to. It's if you want to talk to him, it's pretty easy because he's being held in a in the
01:03:43
penitentiary down in Texas because not too long ago he was picked up for u he was not only did he have it in his
01:03:51
possession, but he was distributing child pornography. And when they raided his home and his business, they the the
01:04:00
feds found more than 22,500 images on computers of child rape and child pornography and this included four
01:04:12
over 420 videos. Um, so Right. But this is what makes you so silly of a person. What? What? Okay. This is why it makes
01:04:20
you so silly. No, this is what made me late this morning. No, but I I was going to be here about an hour earlier, but I
01:04:27
I don't know what time we're recording. I got busy busy tracing this Roger Mattis all morning because we got a
01:04:34
special Halloween episode for you this week. Anyways, this is why you're so silly is okay, you start presenting this
01:04:41
guy that could possibly be the abductor of these three boys, right? Or at least one or two of the
01:04:49
boys. Mhm. And he is found distributing child pornography, right? I get you. And you And so why is he distributing
01:05:00
it? For funds, he's probably making money off of it. Okay. Possibly. Or trading. I think these I think these
01:05:06
guys do a lot of trading, right? But don't you think if he's in the game like that that it's possible that I see what
01:05:14
you're getting at. He's Yeah, I'm crazy. And I'm going to abduct them. Abduct them. I'm probably going to do some
01:05:20
shitty things to him, but I'm going to sell him when I'm done. Look, there's a bunch of sickos out there, you know. Um,
01:05:27
so that's what I'm saying. I I I think I think there's more to this uh Paul Bonasi case or Paul Basi story um that I
01:05:36
mean it's super disturbing. I mean, to me, just the simple they brand these kids and and so he says that that's
01:05:44
backed up. We know that. And as far as like human trafficking goes, the thing that was really disturbing what he talks
01:05:51
about is all they didn't they weren't interested in me anymore. This is what Paul said. Mhm. Because I'm not cuz they
01:06:02
need new kids. They want new kids that haven't been tortured yet. That I to me that's the most disturbing thing about
01:06:08
this whole case. Now, uh, if you're done with that, I'd like to bring up the another sensational
01:06:15
idea. Go ahead. Okay. So, if you because of the Lawrence E. King allegations and
01:06:23
that whole ring that, you know, they they they say is just a hoax. They say basically that story uh of these
01:06:31
allegations started from two employers either of the bank or of the young boys group that got fired that just decided
01:06:40
to come up with these claims. When they came up with those claims, then there was this investigation. Then this money
01:06:47
laundering and all this other stuff comes out. They go to jail for that. But you're stuck with these, you know, uh
01:06:53
human trafficking claims, basically sex crime claims. But there's a lot of connection with
01:07:00
this group of people and it keeps going up the chain. Keeps going up the chain all the way up to George Bush.
01:07:09
George Bush senior. Correct. George Bush senior. Yeah. I I guess W's not technically a junior, but just so we're
01:07:15
not confused, we're talking about the older Yeah. older George Bush. The one He was a one-termer. Yeah. Hate to be a
01:07:22
one-termer. Well, the thing is is uh I don't know how much validity there is to this story, but if you type in Johnny
01:07:31
Gosh and George Bush, there's a picture of it seems like George Bush is on like a campaign trail or something, but he's
01:07:37
talking to a group of kids. And I think it's over his right shoulder. There's a boy that looks similar to Johnny Gosh,
01:07:45
more similar to me. Uh again, when was this photo taken? I'm not really for sure. Uh, it doesn't look like it
01:07:54
doesn't look like Johnny Gosh has aged a bunch of years, but it's it's interesting. I I don't know what to make
01:08:01
of it. I don't think it's really him, but uh it's something you if you're interested in the case, Google it and
01:08:08
and check it out yourself. I I tell you what, Captain, it this is a must Google.
01:08:12
All right, I'm going to throw that out there. must Google this picture because, you know, I saw the picture of the three
01:08:18
boys um on the mattress, you know, that we discussed. I saw the picture of the single boy by himself that that we said
01:08:26
has remained unidentified. Mhm. And then I saw this picture at your urging. You you had asked me to to look this picture
01:08:33
up and I saw this picture and you know what I thought I was going to see? I thought I was gonna be let down again
01:08:40
because when I saw the first pictures that Norine brought up the the kids didn't look none of them looked like
01:08:47
Johnny to me. Um and then you showed me this and I thought, "Oh, of course the captain's going to have something. It's
01:08:52
going to be disappointing." And I I Google it. This is a must Google captain recommendation. Uh th this kid looks
01:09:00
more like Johnny than any of the other pictures. Like he Yeah, he he could pass as Johnny. I had to look at it several
01:09:06
times and I can't say for certain that it's not Johnny. It looks enough like him. Um, and obviously this doesn't mean
01:09:13
that George Bush is connected in any way. You know what I mean? It's just, you know, it's just a weird thing. If a
01:09:19
kid went missing, right? If a kid went missing and and and a week before he went missing, he was in a picture with
01:09:26
Mr. T, I mean, we wouldn't be saying crazy stuff about Mr. T, you know, Penny the Fool. Anyways, what I'm saying is it
01:09:33
doesn't mean that George Bush is connected in any way. It's just kind of this weird thing. And maybe
01:09:41
some of these like uh things that become a little conspiracy start taking off this crazy life of their own. Again, now
01:09:49
now George Bush is part of the group of uh that goes to the Bohemian Grove. So, I mean, maybe there's some validity
01:09:56
there. I just think there's a lot more validity to this this Paul Bonasi uh stories than u maybe some are taken
01:10:04
serious. How about some more sensationalism, right? Yeah, we have uh this story does not I mean this thing
01:10:11
between the the Franklin scandal and between Norine Gosh and Johnny Gosh and uh George Bush uh this thing just never
01:10:21
stops getting weirder. Um, now we have people who have started to suspect that a man of that goes by the name of Jeff
01:10:30
Ganon, did I get that name right? Jeff Ganon is actually Johnny Gosh. Yeah. He's basically a um White House
01:10:38
reporter. Yeah. So, he is Yeah. He's some kind of White House reporter, correspondent kind of dude. Um, and I
01:10:45
guess he was was he discredited in January of or February of 2012? Wasn't that he was discredited. It was
01:10:54
just the fact that he doesn't really have any he doesn't have the credentials that one you would assume needs to have
01:11:03
to be a a White House reporter. So, he's basically like some guy just walks off the street with a pad and a and a and a
01:11:09
pencil and he's like, "I'm here to take the report." Yeah. But this stuff happens all the time. somebody knows
01:11:15
somebody, you know, and then you get a job. But is it I believe was it through credit cards or for some some way they
01:11:22
were able to trace this Jeff Ganon to some kind of call boy service to like a a male call service where you escort
01:11:31
service. Yeah. I think he was an escort at some point. Yeah. And um or he was paying for escorts. He was involved. He
01:11:40
either he either worked for one or he was in or using one. Um, but that's where we get this whole Jeff Ganon is
01:11:48
Johnny Gosh. Um, I believe there was also a newspaper article written about Johnny Gosh a long time ago uh that was
01:11:56
written by a reporter that went by the name of Jeff Ganon. Not technically the same one, but it's a weird coincidence
01:12:03
uh in this story now. Um, but it's kind of like Beatles clues. You know, you hear about Beatles clues. I don't know
01:12:10
what that is. Okay, go for it. The Beatles. You know who the Beatles are? I've heard of them. So, there's a lot,
01:12:15
you know, it's like, oh, if you play this backwards, it says this. Okay, these clues, I got you. Paul's dead.
01:12:20
Paul is dead, right? And really, a lot of these conspiracies just start because one happens and then we start looking
01:12:28
for more and more clues. Mhm. That's why they call them Beatles clues. Um, don't
01:12:32
Google that, by the way, because that will take up your entire weekend. If you Google Beatles clues, you will spend you
01:12:38
will spend the entire weekend convinced that they wrote a song telling you that Paul died in some kind of car accident
01:12:44
and they've replaced him with a guy that looks just like him, which there was a car accident. So, I mean, there's some
01:12:50
validity to the story, but uh but no, no, and I think that's the case in this John Gosh is I think you know, one weird
01:12:59
thing happens that leads to this other weird thing and you're really just putting a bunch of dots out there. Are
01:13:05
you connecting them? I'm not really for sure. I just think you're putting them out there. The the thing is though, this
01:13:11
Jeff Ganon, it's not a uh I don't believe, you know, I there's no way I don't think he's Johnny Gosh. Um but I
01:13:20
will say just like I said with the the photograph with George Bush, um this guy is not
01:13:27
he he he resembles Johnny somewhat. Wouldn't you agree? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you could when you do the age
01:13:32
enhancement, you would kind of see that uh that he could potentially have grown up to look like this Jeff Ganon. Uh Jeff
01:13:39
Ganon is a bald, very bald man, though, right? Uh like no hair at all, I'm guessing. Yeah, but but I Yeah, that's
01:13:46
normally what bald means. But but I'm joking. I'm only joking because of It could be shaved head though. It could
01:13:51
be. But Norin's description of the man that that uh came to her doorstep saying that he was Johnny was somebody that had
01:13:59
long black hair, which is very different from being bald. Well, and I also think
01:14:04
if there was somewhat some validity to this story that wouldn't Norine be saying, "Oh, yeah, that's my that's my
01:14:12
boy." Yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, it in case after case, time after time, it seems like even if there's a um
01:14:19
a shred of hope, she is gone with that's my boy and and so here's this uh reporter and he doesn't have these
01:14:27
credentials and he's wrapped up in this escort thing. And not only that, like, okay, if I'm Jeff Ganon, right, and I've
01:14:34
and I'm actually Johnny Gosh, let's pretend for a minute. And I've been abducted and I've been held as a slave
01:14:40
and I'm terrified for my life. I'm afraid I can't communicate with my family. I can't tell the police what has
01:14:46
happened, but I'm going to end up in the White House taking no notes and and given, you know, becoming a
01:14:52
correspondent when I'm not even credited to do so. Um, that that seems like another huge leap for me as well. Well,
01:15:01
back to the story of of Johnny visiting Norine. The the one issue I have with this is doesn't if he is still involved
01:15:10
with this group and now he's, you know, older man, he would be like 30ome 40 some years old. Yeah. He would be he was
01:15:18
born in 1969. But but when he visited her, he was a man now. Mhm. Yeah. He was almost 30. So you're not you're not a
01:15:26
kid anymore. So that makes you you were the victim and now you're the one victimizing people. Mhm. That's what it
01:15:33
that's what to me what she's implying. And that's that's where I have that's a thing where it's like she has to know
01:15:42
she's implying that, right? And so that's an uncomfortable thing for a mom to say. So maybe that goes with
01:15:50
one of the things which would make me want to believe her more. Well, this is just a crazy case overall. Well, and the
01:15:57
other thing too is captain and and we do have to wrap this up at some point because in all honesty with how big this
01:16:03
thing is and how big it goes and if we were to go fully into this Franklin Credit Union scandal and the Bohemian
01:16:09
Grove scandal, if we went into all that into as much detail and the strange missing persons and and deaths that
01:16:17
followed all of those accusations, we could take True Crime Garage season 4 and it would be all about the Johnny
01:16:24
Gosh case. So, well, yeah. Well, I posted on social media that, you know, I'm trying to get you to quit your job
01:16:30
uh so we can do more episodes per week. So, I was joking about a fundraiser, but
01:16:34
we do have a fundraiser. You can go to true crimegar.com and click on the donate banner and we have a beer
01:16:40
fundraiser. That's right. That's right. If you want, but we want you to go to true crimegar.com and get on the blog
01:16:46
and tell us on the Johnny Cosh blog and tell us what you think about this case. What do you think happened to Johnny? Do
01:16:53
you like the captain's theory that there's a underground child sex ring or do you like my theory where there's one
01:16:59
one? Mine's not a theory. It's a fact. There's sex ring. It's still a theory. It's still a theory. No,
01:17:06
my the theory is that I believe that Johnny's involved in it. Okay. Okay. Go ahead. Do you want some
01:17:13
recommended reading, Captain? No, I don't want to read anymore. Yes, you're going to read. Uh this week we are
01:17:19
recommending The Franklin Scandal. It's a story of power brokers, child abuse, and betrayal by Nick Bryant. This is for
01:17:26
those of you that want to find out more about this case. Like we said, this this
01:17:30
is more into the area of the Franklin Credit Union of that scandal and the uh potential child sex ring. Uh so if you
01:17:38
want to learn more about that, pick up the Franklin scandal, a story of power brokers, child abuse, and betrayal by
01:17:44
Nick Bryant. That's available by going to true crimegar.com. Click on the recommended page and use the Amazon
01:17:51
banner to make all of your fun purchases for true crime or for the holiday season. Yeah. And you can get anything
01:17:57
through the Amazon banner. So, just go to true crimegar.com, click on the Amazon banner. I actually bought You'll
01:18:04
never guess it. Nobody would be ever be able to guess what I bought at Amazon this week. Red Velcro.
01:18:12
Why? Uh well for it's guitar stuff but but who would have thought? I went to buy some Velcro and they had red. I
01:18:19
thought well that's better than black something different that is. So you can buy anything through there. And for
01:18:24
everything True Crime Garage, go to true crimegar.com. And thank you beautiful people for
01:18:30
listening. We'll see you in a couple days cuz we got a special holiday episode. Happy Halloween. Yes. Join us
01:18:37
for a special night of trick-or-treating uh here in the garage and we hope hope to see you in a couple days. Right,
01:18:44
Captain? Yes, sir. And until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter. [Music]