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[Music] you can cross your fingers and all your toes during a data center migration you
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can knock on wood pluck a dozen fourleaf clovers or look to your lucky stars for
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a successful office expansion you could hold your breath shut your eyes and say all the World wishes to help avoid cyber
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attacks but none of that truly helps you because next level moments need the next
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level network with the security reliability and expertise to take your business further AT&T business the
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network more businesses are choosing look around you can find cars like these on auto trader new cars used cars
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electric cars maybe even flying cars okay no flying cars but as soon as they get invented they'll be on auto
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trader just you wait Auto Trader [Music] [Music] now I I will lead the listeners in this
00:01:46
way with this bit of information this is a highly we can all agree the three of us this is a highly
00:01:52
controversial aspect of this case yes and there is some proof to back up some of her statements some of it uncorrupt
00:01:59
corroborated some of it challenged I've seen some statements that portions of her accusations have been debunked I've
00:02:07
seen other statements that say no that's not true so it's a little convoluted from everything I've
00:02:14
seen but I do believe I do believe there's something there and um I I do get a little nervous
00:02:23
with when we have the situations where with the I don't know if she was ever doing any of the hypnosis stuff because
00:02:30
some it's been proven that sometimes the these memories can be planted or manufactured a little bit um or do we
00:02:39
feel do and and I'm saying this even to myself do the three of us feel comfortable naming any names here if we
00:02:50
don't that's fine well look I mean there's you know her interviews are on the internet
00:02:58
they're public knowledge public knowled so I got no problem if people just know where to find them
00:03:04
correct yeah so so we have this witness and she she will be making claims you guys stop me when I get this wrong
00:03:12
because I'm bound to say something dumb at some point the the white family is from California correct
00:03:19
correct and she's claiming that she was sexually abused in California and correct when she's saying
00:03:27
that there the abuse was done to me and the way that John Benet Ramsay's body's found in the basement of the
00:03:35
Ramsey home mimics what was done to me correct correct she she was very specific
00:03:44
on I the abuse she went through as a child mimics what happened to John benay all
00:03:53
what we mean by what we mean by that is hands bound and some kind of breathing restraints uh restricting the breathing
00:04:01
whether it be choking or Gat or it was it was a gat that that's what was used on Nancy that that that's the woman's
00:04:08
name was Nancy she claimed that you know she was you know her her history with the family it's intergenerational
00:04:17
abuse it's uh a tragic story I've seen cases like this prior so it didn't shock me like it shocked some of the people
00:04:26
that were handling her uh you know we [ __ ] grandparents involved parents uncles the whole family and she would uh
00:04:36
and the family had a a trainer that would train these kids and her in particular how to please adults sexually
00:04:45
and this guy's name was Macky boin and he was known as the family trainer and if anybody is wants to dispute that you
00:04:55
can look it up he's he not this is Absolut abute fact and we know that because he's charged and pleads guilty
00:05:05
to the charges yes now eventually what happens to Nancy is that she and this happens over a period of many many years
00:05:13
to her and what she tells the Boulder Police and says hey look uh a lot of you know they would
00:05:21
have these parties where me and other kids would be abused and it it would include a garat
00:05:30
and if we didn't do any something correct they would hit us on the head as punishment and it would always happen
00:05:38
around the holidays because you had time to heal up from the wounds before you went back to school yeah and I'm going
00:05:45
to get into some pretty gross stuff here so if anybody listening wants to wants to zoom ahead about a minute and a half
00:05:52
but so I'm gonna go I'm gonna go out of bounds here but like so Ted Bundy we would learn from Ted Bundy that he would
00:06:01
he would often times choke or strangle his victims as he's raping them because the restricting the breathing the lack
00:06:09
of air then causes the muscles in the body to do different things yes and so he he did it for that M for those
00:06:15
reasons what Nancy our witness here is saying is that the the Gat or the restricting of the breathing or the
00:06:23
choking was a method that was taught or taught by the trainer and and even taught to the
00:06:33
abusers and the Raper the rapists that when you when you choke the victim the child victim here it
00:06:41
is a way to simulate that they may be enjoying the ACT is that correct yeah that's that that's that's exactly
00:06:51
correct it's the the Gat is a sexual uh tortur device while you obviously you can kill
00:07:02
somebody with it when a pedophile is using the garage you're trying to put your victim
00:07:12
in this certain State as you mentioned and it borders between life and death you wanna you
00:07:21
want to to the pedophile hit that spot with the garage and that control where you can make the body
00:07:30
the muscles seize and like you said it makes uh the victim kind of spasm move around and it
00:07:40
makes them appear to be enjoying it that's the that's the whole thing with the garat now Macky died Macky was an expert
00:07:50
with the garat he died in November of 96 so ny's claims is that this sex ring that there was
00:08:03
there was a connection between her family and people that her family knew to the ramsy case and she brought
00:08:14
evidence of pictures and she made claims against Fleet white senior Fleet white senior being the father of Fleet White
00:08:27
Jr who was one of John Ramsay's best friends and whose house John Benet was over you know the night that she died
00:08:37
yes and I believe her claim is that Fleet white Senor was her Godfather god parent I I believe the
00:08:46
connection is is that Nancy's mother Gwen that is Fleet white senior's goddaughter so okay Nancy's mother Isle
00:08:59
fet white senior's goddaughter and she brought pictures and she brought evidence that connects you know it
00:09:07
connected the whites to this family and yeah and this pretty on the internet was extremely
00:09:16
divisive at the time it was I can't I can't tell you how ugly it became online I tried to stay away from the online
00:09:26
stuff but for the short time I was on it people either believed her or just said
00:09:34
totally false and they they blamed everybody Under the Sun for this woman coming
00:09:41
forward saying it's a money-making scheme there was just a million different things thrown at
00:09:48
her and and I got to interview her you know for a time and and that's how I you know the the attorney that represented
00:09:57
her is name was Lee Hill they contacted him and told him the story he went out there interviewed her found her her
00:10:09
story to be credible came back home came back to Boulder and then Nancy and the therapist
00:10:17
started receiving threats from her family and they panicked and they called Lee Hill and they said we're coming to
00:10:24
Boulder and we got to get this done so she showed up and and Lee took her to the
00:10:33
police now as for me and my brother this was the witness we were looking for that we said would come
00:10:42
forward if our theory was true that a sex ring of some kind was involved in this in John B's death so now I have to
00:10:52
call Lee hell because in our in the initial months of the case looking into it I was
00:11:04
I I interviewed a a man a doctor in the town called Bob McFarland and he was a doctor that worked with a lot of
00:11:12
runaways latch key kids uh prostitutes in Boulder and when we and when I contacted him he told me
00:11:22
he's like you and your brother are the only people asking the right questions I need you guys to come out here and I was
00:11:29
likewhy can't you just go to the cops and he's like the he goes I got a line around the block of kids talking about
00:11:38
child sexual abuse and they're terrified of the police so this was our first taste of what we were dealing with the
00:11:45
Boulder Police Department and for the next several weeks after that first phone call with
00:11:51
Bob mcfr I told him I said if you want to give my number out I had some of these kids call me almost every night
00:11:58
for weeks and they were terrified they were telling me about businesses being involved in Boulder and you know
00:12:06
business in the front party in the back type stuff child sexual abuse parties they named a judge they they
00:12:14
didn't name a judge they told me a judge was involved but they were absolutely terrified to deal with the bould the
00:12:20
police department so now we go back so this witness comes forward Lee Hill is now
00:12:28
representing this woman by the time we find out we're like holy moly this is the this is the witness we were looking
00:12:35
for I got to call them and tell them hey don't you know don't do anything with her just sit on her so we
00:12:44
can tell you what we were you know what we had planned with her so it was kind of a forced phone call and how that
00:12:51
first phone call went me and this attorney are still in contact all these years later uh I asked him I said Mr
00:12:59
Hill are you the attorney for the woman that came forward he's like yeah I'm like well let me let me guess she
00:13:05
suffers from disassociative issu issues multiple personality disorder she has uh
00:13:12
injuries you know to a private areas and other areas she's uh the abuse was ritualistic in nature uh multiple family
00:13:21
members involved this was stuff that nobody knew but I knew because from working prior cases and that got his
00:13:28
attention and he was like how do you know all this and I'm like that's not important right now what's most
00:13:33
important is that you do not bring her to the Boulder Police Department because they're not going to investigate her
00:13:39
case properly and then he told me he had already done so and I said Mr Hill two things are about to
00:13:47
happen one you're going to watch as they do not properly investigate her claims and then number two you're going
00:13:56
to watch if they can't discredit her they will come after you and that's exactly what happened and I got to watch
00:14:05
it play out over a period of the next two to three years how his life just disintegrated because of getting
00:14:13
involved with that now she came from the west coast to Boulder because she was under duress they were threatening her
00:14:22
so she came to bould it to be hidden but what does the Boulder Police do they Conta
00:14:29
the family out in California tell tell them where she is what what she's doing who she's there with yeah what the you
00:14:37
know the whole plan and Lee Hill being an attorney was like are you guys out of your mind she's supposed to be we're
00:14:44
trying to keep her safe you're telling them what she's doing where she is what type of protocol is this he was a guest
00:14:52
that they were doing that well they have no protocol I mean when when they got a
00:14:56
phone call December 2 6 1996 saying that there's been a kidnapping now they don't
00:15:03
go so far into the they say there's a note been left the first thing the cops do is they just pull up right into the
00:15:09
driveway um the the house could have been monitored if if that was a real kidnapping there they had
00:15:17
no idea no Protocol no no nothing set into place nothing put into place on how to handle that type of crime and then
00:15:26
you see with this situation they're informing the people that could that could put her into danger and it's so to
00:15:37
to be a little I'll fill in some blanks here we don't want to go too far down this road but to put it as simple as we
00:15:46
can we have a woman who is roughly the age of Fleet White Jr correct roughly about the same age I believe at the time
00:15:57
she was in her mid-30s when she came forward okay and so so a little bit younger than Fleet
00:16:05
White Jr but she some of her claims uh are of sexual abuse violent sexual abuse over the course of a long period of time
00:16:15
that she says at times mimicked the way that John Benet Ramsay's body is found in that basement and she her family has
00:16:23
direct ties to the the white family and for anybody that's having a hard time putting this together Fleet White Jr is
00:16:32
very good friends at the time of the murder with John Ramsay and not just very good friends
00:16:40
he's with him with John Ramsey when the body is discovered in the basement he's at the Ramsey house and then later John
00:16:49
and Fleet white would have a a falling out and and the friendship would be over yeah that's that's that's a good way to
00:16:56
sum it up and one let's get into Lee Hill just real quick and touch base on this just just a little bit but one
00:17:04
thing I thought that was very interesting is this this will kind of show a the disconnect with Boulder I
00:17:12
believe it was with the Boulder Police Department because Lee Hill at the time was representing an individual that was
00:17:20
suing the tabloids for defamation of character because he was the Tabloid was naming
00:17:27
him as a suspecting the John B Ramsey murder was that uh miles yeah that was Steven miles and so Lee Hill is
00:17:36
representing Stephen miles and for so for that matter he has to take a deposition uh with John Ramsey correct
00:17:46
correct and at the time Boulder Police Department are saying we can't get this guy to talk to us he's dodging us he
00:17:51
won't answer our questions he won't sit down with us and Lee Hill goes to Boulder and says I got this this
00:17:57
interview this deposition with John Ramsey would you like to review it and they go nah n we don't want to we don't
00:18:02
want to review it the only person ever yeah to ever get joh under oath was Lee it makes no sense it it's almost like
00:18:10
what kind it's they it appeared to me that they didn't want to do any type of investigation outside of those four
00:18:17
walls of that Ramsey home let me tell you how bad how bad it was uh them not investigating now just jumping in the
00:18:26
timeline a little bit you know I was in contact with L Smith I mentioned that earlier for a period of
00:18:33
years from about 2003 to about 2010 and we'll get hopefully we'll get to how I first got in touch with him but
00:18:43
uh Lou would say all the time there was no real investigation done and as an example me and several
00:18:55
other people got together and we did a background check you know as deep as we could of Fleet
00:19:02
white we didn't find anything crazy you know a couple you know multiple Social Security numbers but that happens some
00:19:10
PO boxes in different places you know nothing nothing Earth shattering you know but we tried to give a timeline of
00:19:19
his life and we sent it I sent it to Lou and Lou takes a couple of days calls me
00:19:27
back and he said oh he goes this background check on fleet was tremendous do you mind if I take it and share it
00:19:36
with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and I'm like you can do whatever you want with it we sent it to
00:19:42
you you know to help you know not at this point Lou Smith is no longer working the case because he had quit you
00:19:50
know you know that's a different part of the story so this is 2003 L still working the case and he's like Frank he
00:19:57
goes that that is the deepest background check he goes ever done on fleet white and it wasn't that deep and I'm like are
00:20:05
you to tell me that hardly any background check was done and he's like correct he goes so
00:20:12
when I say that there was no real investigation there was no real investigation and that's just a small
00:20:20
example of it nobody even really did a background check at the person whose house John Benet Ramsey was at the night
00:20:29
she died and who was basically riding shotgun when the dad finds the body and a matter of fact Fleet looked inside the
00:20:36
wine Celler yep says he didn't turn on the light and that's why he didn't see the body exactly it was but later later
00:20:46
he says he throws Jon under the bus and says well JN yelled or screamed that he found the body before he even turned
00:20:55
before he turned on the light that implying that John already knew that that John Benet was there before he saw
00:21:04
her or would see her because the light was still off now let's let's steer this conversation a
00:21:11
little away from from the whiten from the Ramsay for a minute because when I was reading presumed guilty I nearly
00:21:21
fell out of my chair when I got to this part because I thought holy hell only in
00:21:28
John Benet ramsy case would something like this even be possible I'm reading about your guys's
00:21:36
investigation and Stephen singular says that you guys had a great lead somewhere
00:21:41
in Florida but that lead quickly dried up when it when the individual was struck by lightning and
00:21:51
killed yeah I mean it's sad but but I mean I I I was pardon the pun here I was I was beyond shocked and damn near fell
00:22:01
out of my chair when I read that I thought only in the John B ramsy case would something like that happen a
00:22:06
possible lead gone because of the the very rare occurrence of somebody being struck by lightning C can you fill in
00:22:14
the blanks for me I'm dying to know what what's going on there some details about
00:22:19
that okay so just to just recap briefly 97 we come up with the sex ring Theory we're looking for a witness 3 years
00:22:27
later that witness comes forward so we've achieved that the last part that I kind of blanked out on which I apologize
00:22:35
for the other thing that we tried to achieve was we said that if we did our best and we found the the right sources
00:22:47
we would eventually find another case or another Scandal that connects the ramsy play players to it
00:22:59
because we always viewed it as this case is unsolvable it's been botched from Jump Street we believe you
00:23:09
know the narrative that it's the Keystone Cops we believe some things you can only bot some things until it starts
00:23:15
looking like it's on purpose so we we said there's no way to solve this case by the case itself what we call in the
00:23:24
weeds so we said if we keep going down our angle we'll eventually find another case that connects so we thought when we
00:23:33
found the witness that was the first big break okay and then the Boulder Police end the
00:23:42
investigation saying pretty much that her story doesn't connect to the Ramsey case but that her California
00:23:51
stories prior to the Ramsey murder should be investigated by other authorities like the FBI
00:23:58
so that ends the Nancy thing so I contact a reporter at the bould The Daily Camera name of Christopher
00:24:06
Anderson and we're discussing Nancy he is not a believer in Nancy we agree to disagree on Nancy
00:24:15
which is fine Chris was pretty good with that and he asked me exactly what my theory of the case was and again I told
00:24:25
him said my brother and I believe that you know there was most likely a sex ring of wealthy people and others in
00:24:34
this town somehow the Ramsey got involved maybe didn't know exactly what they were getting involved with
00:24:42
maybe and the kid died and Christopher kind of went huh and I said what and he's like this reminds me he goes your
00:24:52
theory reminds me of something and we and I said what and he's like in the early
00:24:58
90s there was a bunch of wealthy people in Boulder that got picked up and it got hushed up and kind of put
00:25:08
under you know kicked under the rug so Christopher Anderson's like how about we do an
00:25:14
article he goes I'll give you a by line so I was thrilled and it was going to be about
00:25:21
the Ramsay case and maybe what was going on in boulders past had something to do
00:25:30
with how the kid died maybe these people that got picked up in the early 9s so I
00:25:37
was all for it I was EC static I'm like finally I'm gonna get a you know a journalist to you know write an article
00:25:44
this is GNA you know this is going to be in the news people are going to pay attention to what the hell we've been
00:25:50
talking about and I asked him I said how sure are you of these names that you're talking about
00:25:59
and he goes the bould the police had a list he goes I know exactly where that list is and I'm like how do you know
00:26:08
this and he's like I used he goes when I first started I was the beat reporter for the
00:26:15
Boulder Police and the person whose place that he took as the beat reporter was the one that told him about this
00:26:23
list so I said okay and he could tell I was getting really excited you can tell Nick I tend to get excited from time to
00:26:30
time and he was like just calm down give me a few days he goes I the list isn't going anywhere I know exactly where it
00:26:39
is so I would pretty much call him every two days we're still doing this right he's
00:26:45
like yep we're still gonna do it I said the list is still there he's like yep don't worry he goes and then I bought it
00:26:52
the maybe the fourth day fifth day I called him and he's like look Frank he goes Don't Panic he goes everything's
00:27:00
fine I'm going on vacation down to Florida when I come back we're gonna do it I'm like awesome I can't wait to get
00:27:12
these names on the list me and my brother can start digging into it and then I get a phone
00:27:20
call a day or two later telling me to pay attention to uh a death in Florida Christopher Anderson got on a
00:27:32
plane landed in Florida went to the place he was staying to change and hit the beach went to the beach and got hit by
00:27:43
lightning and was killed yeah when it's your time it's your time right and that was absolutely devastating I'm like
00:27:51
okay you know maybe this is maybe this is never going to happen this is you know we're never going to be able to
00:27:58
break through with our information or get people to to you know take us serious because I mean you can't explain it it
00:28:08
was almost like you know God saying nope this I do not want this solved not yet anyway so that's that's the Christopher
00:28:15
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Safe crazy I mean just when you think a case can't get any more crazy or or weird or out of bounds
00:33:22
there we go now so this one of the most interesting things you guys ever inform me
00:33:30
about was the John Benet Ramsay tip line right after the murder call in if you know anything if you saw anything if you
00:33:39
heard anything we we need tips and later Lou would would tell the Lou Smith would
00:33:45
tell the papers and I'm glad that he did that you know there's like 3,000 or so tips come in and he says from every
00:33:54
document he reviewed it it appeared that the Boulder Police Police Department did
00:33:58
not follow up on 95% of the tips coming in but there was one tip that you guys were really interested in in in an angle
00:34:08
of the case that I had never heard of before and I want you to tell everybody about that tip if you feel comfortable
00:34:14
doing so uh yeah we yeah we yeah we can do that um do you mind Nick if we kind of backtrack a little because we have
00:34:24
this part's got got to be kind of told in order because this like the tip line works with other things but it's not in
00:34:32
the proper order is that okay you you you're the one that informed me about this information so you tell it how you
00:34:39
see fit as I had mentioned uh the attorney Lee Hill after he represents Nancy uh and goes to the
00:34:48
bould of police as I had warned him about they did not properly investigate her claims and his life fell apart
00:34:58
and it got to the point where he said he needed to leave the country which he did cirer around
00:35:08
2003 but before he left he told me he was sending me some items some of it had to do with
00:35:15
Nancy uh he sent other people information as well so I received the package from leh
00:35:24
hill and in it is a poem and it's called well there is no name and when I uh when Lee called me
00:35:34
from Asia and I said what's up with this poem and he was like Hey look he goes I
00:35:41
received a couple of poems in my mailbox just try to get it to somebody you trust he goes because I think it's
00:35:51
important and this poem I gave it the name uh the three men poem now it's a little bit long so Nick
00:36:02
I don't know if you want me to read it or I would love nothing more than for you to read the poem right
00:36:08
now okay so this is how the poem starts this is not the author of the original poem recidivism is my only
00:36:20
concern you are the only one who has a copy of this please respect my anonymity people who abuse children are terrorists
00:36:31
too in the spirit of Crazy Horse it's all connected and then the poem Begins the truth uh in his cocky Ry the
00:36:43
truth the three would carry to the steps of the authority to boast of their pernicious
00:36:50
spree but he did not know that I could see and therefore was not wey for hidden in the rectory protected by
00:37:01
the church decree he delved in child pornography while Elders professed not to see his sister told them it could be he
00:37:13
killed the child and honish she his secret would not bury they did not know he changed the
00:37:21
key when police would come to query so they broke and entered quietly though he would claim
00:37:29
illicitly and so avoiding calumny a grand sum he was paid to flee and so it was conveniently their questions he would
00:37:41
Parry to solve a tale of misconstrue just look into the Offman Pew you'll find there in Fort lupton's slooh stray
00:37:51
cats are plenty skinned a few on prying Stoops there their hides did strew and cats blood will scare daughters
00:38:01
too while Bish bushes hid their sins from view Richard held the Quee the child must die he did
00:38:10
decide the crime arrange the ritual pled with church at stake and family Pride three men he chose to
00:38:21
enter though two decried this church a lie their testimony was the denied with ties that run both deep and wide no one
00:38:32
could defend her now some have gone and some have stayed class to find the roles
00:38:38
they played someday you'll know the Masquerade of Zack the great Pretender and then it mentions the three
00:38:49
men and gives three names so this is the poem I received from Le and I don't know what to do with it I'm
00:39:02
kind of right you know I'm like okay this is the Ramsey you know this is the Ramsay case a lot of crazy people out
00:39:10
there anybody could have written this but it was written in such a way that I kept going over it
00:39:17
and when it mentions the three names one I had never heard of before in regard to
00:39:23
the Ramsey case two is a very popular name that everybody would know and then the third
00:39:30
was a little known name that I had I had recollected I had heard before but still most people would not
00:39:39
know the name so I read this poem as I'm doing now to somebody that's in Colorado
00:39:48
and they said hey you know do you mind if I tell somebody what you just what you just read
00:39:54
me I'm I'm like sure and they're like okay give it I'll get back to you in a couple of days two
00:40:02
days later I get a phone call from Lou Smith I had never contacted Lou before but yet he's calling
00:40:15
me because of this poem and he's pleading with me for me to give it to him that's when I knew that there was
00:40:25
something special about this p and especially these three names for why would Lou beg me the way he was in the first
00:40:36
phone call and that was the start of our relationship was this poem and Lou was desperate to find out
00:40:47
who wrote it now all we had to go with was envelopes which I think I think Lee lost
00:40:58
the envelopes but they came with Denver postmarks and they were addressed weird right like it was the the uh the return
00:41:07
address was uh for the children that was the only return address to go off so the return address
00:41:15
was for the children it was addressed to leh Hill and inside was this poem so we
00:41:22
had pretty much the entire city of Denver that's all we had to go on So eventually
00:41:29
L said you know what Frank it's going to be impossible for us to figure this out we
00:41:35
might as well stop and I said and you know what in retrospect he was right and I was wrong
00:41:45
well it wasn't his first rodeo yeah well well I wanted I I told him and I argued
00:41:51
with him I said Lou I said you have a copy and I got a copy yeah I said Lou wanted to keep it under
00:42:00
wraps but I I told Lou I said' Lou the person knows the case because when you break down this
00:42:10
poem you're talking about something going on at the church yep and when you go down a few
00:42:21
stanzas to Sal a tayor misconstrue look into the Offman pew you'll find there in
00:42:27
Fort lump slew straight cats of Plenty skinned a few on prying Stoops their hide their hides did strew that's
00:42:35
referring to Steve Thomas he wrote he even wrote it in his book that a mutilated cat was thrown on
00:42:45
his lawn and cat's blood will scare daughters too that's referring to Linda a she had cat's blood thrown on her door
00:42:57
the only now most people some people know this if you know Thomas's book I remember this when it happened yeah
00:43:05
there were three things that happened the cat thrown on Thomas's lawn Linda AR had blood thrown on her
00:43:15
door and sergeant witson had bullets fired into his living room window these are three important players
00:43:25
on the police side Steve being one of the lead detectives Linda AR who was there when the Body
00:43:33
Found yeah for an uncomfortably long period of time by herself mind you and mind you she asked for help multiple
00:43:40
times and did not get it called for help multiple times and they just ignored her
00:43:46
calls I and you know she's somebody that kind of gets thrown under the bus and I
00:43:51
think the public has been a little impolite to Linda aren't um has she said some strange things over the
00:44:00
years yes a couple but we pointed this out in our six-part series years ago I couldn't I I have some knowledge on on
00:44:10
police work and how it's supposed to work and and for her to call that in and and that one she should have never been
00:44:17
left there with that number of people by herself anyway uh especially if it appears at the time that they are
00:44:24
working it as the note as the letter presents itself to be that there is an abduction and possibly seeking a ransom
00:44:33
and yet they leave her alone when a ransom call could come in at any minute with all these people and they don't
00:44:41
even really fully know what's going on yet and she's calling in for help and they leave her out there high and dry
00:44:48
and I've I've so I've always been a little upset about some of the public ridicule of her over the years because I
00:44:56
think she was put in a compromising position in an unprofessional and and position and in a position that none of
00:45:05
us should be put in and then ridiculed for her behavior or her observations later which I just think is
00:45:13
she was treated unfairly on the day after Christmas 1996 and and still to this day a treated
00:45:21
a little unfair um since then yeah oh I'm in total agreement I mean her life was destroyed because of this case you
00:45:31
know and don't don't forget she then sues her own department where during that trial you know she she talks about
00:45:40
being threatened by people within her own Department yep so it's yeah she she got thrown under the bus just like many
00:45:50
people many people have suffered because of this case many St miles why his name was mentioned whether
00:45:59
it came from the Ramsey Camp the cops why stepen he was a guy that a photographer artsy guy extremely nice
00:46:10
man I worked him as a source for close to 20 years best source I ever had he wanted nothing but to get to the truth
00:46:20
of this case and he helped me he sacrificed friendships for me and he just passed away last summer and
00:46:28
he wanted nothing more than for this case to be solved but you know Lee Hill his life
00:46:36
destroyed uh you know Steve Thomas whether you love him or whether you hate him he loved being a cop had to walk
00:46:43
away from it all yep and it just goes on and on and on with this case but uh and
00:46:50
I'm glad that you bring up Steve Thomas because you know there there there are a
00:46:54
lot of things that I dis agreed with him in this case when we did our first six-part series but one thing that
00:47:02
I wasn't clear of is that he too was put in a tough position and while his investigation didn't kind
00:47:11
of go the way that I think maybe it should have gone and I I I don't know that he had the experience to handle
00:47:21
such a complicated case like this he made some very good observations some that that I think
00:47:30
other detectives may not have been able to make so he did he did make some good efforts in this case and and you know so
00:47:39
we we should thank him for his work on the case as well oh yeah I mean like I said you know whether you agree or
00:47:46
disagree with Thomas the guy you know he he was pretty much a cop who tried and and just got disgusted with it
00:47:57
all and walked away now do I think you know him thinking paty did it no but but this case
00:48:06
is you can't BL excuse me you can't blame some of the cops for thinking the Ramsay were involved I mean you it's
00:48:16
just common sense there are things that point to the ramies let's face it the body's in the house the notepad is
00:48:24
theirs paintbrush is their you can go on and on so a lot of stuff points to them being involved in their
00:48:32
daughter's murder but yet the DNA doesn't match so there's there's this huge there's this huge disconnect but
00:48:41
you can't blame the cops you know it's it's op it's standard operating procedure You' got to look at the
00:48:48
parents first you have to oh the statistics will tell you that the the and this is something we've talked
00:48:58
about on the show numerous times but it's it's it's always one Social Circle first that you have to look at in any
00:49:05
homicide investigation because most homicides are person a gets angry at person B about something and they kill
00:49:13
them in a fit of rage or on an accident don't you know they they intend to harm them but not kill them and
00:49:21
so the overwhelming majority of homicides that's exactly what happened so you look at the social one Social
00:49:27
Circle first well when we're talking about a child homicide the younger the victim the smaller the Social Circle
00:49:35
that they have it's just the the way the world works and the way that are the the
00:49:40
nature of our lives and so with a six-year-old victim you have to look with inside those walls first so yes of
00:49:48
course but what what with these poems do we feel comfortable talking about the the the tip that interests me
00:49:59
so much that came in in early 1997 uh to the tip line well I I had I have to bring up the poem first
00:50:09
because it there was like a there was like a chain of events yeah the background is very
00:50:15
important so we have this poem I give it to Lou cuz Lou really wanted it and I spent Lou kind of gave up on
00:50:26
figuring out who wrote it he really wanted to know but you know it was it was almost
00:50:34
impossible so I keep trying I tell Lou I'm not GNA stop I'm gonna keep pushing and maybe eventually we'll figure it
00:50:44
out Lou gets sick and passes away well I believe is in 2010 maybe a year later me and others
00:50:53
are working to S you know to figure out out who wrote this I brought this poem to colleges had professors look at it
00:51:01
and who who were experts in poetry and they were like you know this isn't some crazy person that's just writing this
00:51:10
you know this person knows what they're doing when it comes to writing poems they understand structure and poetic
00:51:16
rhyme this is this is somebody who knows what they're doing when it comes to poetry so I'm trying to figure you know
00:51:25
start looking into that and eventually I go to one of my trusted sources step miles and I said Steve you know anything
00:51:34
I asked him you know anything about poems and he was such an open guy I could tell right away when he started
00:51:42
stammering that he knew something and I said Steve I said I've been dealing with
00:51:47
you for years now I said if you know anything about these poems I said man you got to tell
00:51:54
me and he's like yeah I know about poems he goes I mailed one to Lee Hill I was asked to and I said
00:52:05
who he said A friend of mine a member of St John's Church now there were two poems I always thought there was one
00:52:15
Stephen singular had another poem we both thought we had the same po yeah and we never really discussed it that was
00:52:23
the part that not only confused you guys when it happened but but it confused me
00:52:28
because I'm reading his book and he he puts a portion I believe of the poem that he receives and then later you and
00:52:37
Stephen at some point figure out that you've both received poems but they're but they're actually different poems
00:52:43
well and like I said earlier we kind of like we didn't work on things together the the singulars are their own brand
00:52:51
you know and me and my brother we do our thing and occasionally we would kind of bump into each other
00:52:57
with information this was one of those instance uh instances when he said he had a poem I
00:53:04
had a poem and I said oh it's so you know about the three names right and he's like my poem doesn't have any
00:53:10
names and I'm like what are you talking about he goes my poem's called The Manchurian
00:53:15
da and I'm like what so I I don't know if you want me to skip that part uh I do have it here if you
00:53:24
want me to read it Nick if you think it's we should just continue on and get to the point that you're asking about
00:53:29
the tip line it's up to you no I like I want to hear the the and I think the listeners will want to hear the other
00:53:35
poem as well okay so attorney leh Hill has mailed two poems that he received out one is what we call the thre men
00:53:46
poem to me in the Manchurian do poem was sent to author Steven singular Stephen miles
00:53:57
was asked by somebody involved who's a member of St John's Church to send one of these poems to him and ask Stephen
00:54:07
miles to go to Denver so it did not have a boulder postmark so Stephen said he took a a
00:54:18
busted Denver and then dropped it in the mailbox MH and that's how he'll got it so the Manchurian da starts off they say
00:54:31
that innocence prevails and evil cannot Master time and riches and fame and fortune sow some evil seeds which then
00:54:40
will grow to devour their progenitors of 30 Duos some must know that they them out that they themselves
00:54:49
will out their crime and have within an old man's fleeting Lear the cycle of the Dows came round it
00:54:58
poisoned sick the world's Ule cheer they use their own in passing down the rituals remain
00:55:07
unfound and Christmas break gives time to heal parties abound all wounds congeal but
00:55:16
one at blyly festive New Year's bash some candidates in Roots stop there as if by figing toasts and chees
00:55:25
they could undo the Fatal sash the week before but handlers die and what to do with Christmas nigh the one in L did air
00:55:39
St John would roll over in his grave to know the smut that crossed his Nave yet Christmas day he held her near as if he
00:55:48
knew she disappear that very night an elder cleric's errant son his extant Crush now on the Run did they Supply the
00:55:59
candidates with fodder for their LW Eun D tell truth blazes in but from mcfar the hunt team's snare was too Adept with
00:56:11
Keen eyes place to guard the bar the talk of Dos and silence kept they tripped the truth while jurors prepped
00:56:21
then sacked the hunter as inept but Hunters now the haunted R death's officer pery bared though
00:56:31
taints of roofs fast disappeared no antidote this snow white spared the other signs were clearly
00:56:40
there yet all were hastily intered and silky dressed and golden haired truth slept of one who died outstretched on
00:56:51
high most gentle hands his swaddle made and in Spoke Al cloth she laid nor twins
00:56:57
replay round captive limb this Mortal braid is our demise when Angels perish in its
00:57:05
Vice betrayed by kindred's ging lies as purloin Justice turned blind eyes a panic lapse left
00:57:14
unsur Clues carried home already prone sleep guised however one must study grates
00:57:23
take for example William Meats who spoke about banum no Governor could stop the run your split and planning took its
00:57:32
toll your race spun out of control Things Fall Apart the Antichrist lurks in the head it festers in the carnal eye
00:57:42
which takes young victims from their bed to suffer that and then to die now vacant half Gaz tears are Shed from
00:57:51
ambidextrous author stead one da now groan hides in dread another Manchurian Candidate is
00:58:01
dead so now we got two poems am I crazy but does it feel like it's written by Nancy right you would
00:58:09
think because yes it's there are there are references in in the manuri and d right
00:58:19
story there's references to that that the Christmas break is going to heal all wounds but one that's right and so the
00:58:27
the wound that may never heal could be the death of the child or could be the damage down below that is talked about
00:58:35
we don't need to get into that too much um and then when when we reference St John's of course they're that that's the
00:58:45
intent is to talk about the the church and that's the church that the ramies attend that's the church
00:58:52
that a lot of their friends attend as well well correct correct uh John Fernie the doctor Dr Francis
00:59:01
puff also a St John's member uh very close Confidant to John Ramsay was Reverend htoo who was going to play a
00:59:09
key role with these in the story of the poems and the tip line and the tip line that you mentioned and before we go any
00:59:18
further go through the roster of names that were present at the ramsy house the the morning after the morning that
00:59:28
John B's body is discovered in the b in the basement and which ones on that roster have direct relationship with the
00:59:39
church okay well everybody that has a direct relationship so let's start John and paty their Church John
00:59:50
Benet the victim she attended that church The Ransom notes said don't call anybody or we'll behead Your
00:59:59
Child So what do they do they call people immediately Fleet white accusations he doesn't go to St
01:00:08
John's but he's called John and Barbara Fernie big players at St John's Church they're called to the
01:00:18
house Reverend htoo he also comes over those are your key players and then when paty is taken to John fernie's house
01:00:31
after you know the body's found she goes to John fernie's house they take her there that's when the doctor heavily
01:00:39
medicates her now people always say you know she had a whole bunch of doctors you know cancer doctors why call the
01:00:48
pediatrician to be the one H I guess she was close to him because he was a church member
01:00:56
you know and then she is heavily drugged at John fernie's house so those are your key players and
01:01:04
now look there were a ton of people there you know Social Services had a bunch of people there I think other
01:01:13
church members showed up and everybody was cleaning that's how they kept busy wiping down the
01:01:21
kitchen so yeah now you can't blame Linda aren't because like you said you know they were going
01:01:29
under the the idea this was a kidnapping but Linda AR could tell that things were just going out of control
01:01:37
there well she's trying to Corral them into the den or to the office area and she can't keep you know it's like it's
01:01:44
like hurting cats she can't keep everybody in there um and and in her defense as we already stated she's left
01:01:52
there alone without any help for from from her department and an interesting note be you know before uh she was a a
01:02:03
detective uh she works sex crimes so she would she may have known about some of the stuff that we
01:02:12
came across over the years the names I mean we haven't we've we've talked about cases we haven't even gotten into a lot
01:02:20
of it because you know he can't have us on for eight hours but you know the town had a
01:02:28
problem and we always said you know the answer is in the town and like you mentioned cops always look they start
01:02:36
from the inner circle work their way outward that's why we did the opposite we said we can't look at it
01:02:43
this way we gotta take it and from the outside and work our way in until we find something another case or event
01:02:55
that's separate from the ramsy murder that brings in or connects other Ramsay players that may be your only chance to
01:03:03
solve this case because the first case was so botched so bad that we believe that our way was the
01:03:12
only way so you now have these two poems I believe Steve one you know Steve got excited when I told him about the
01:03:26
three men poem gave them the names one name was a member of St John's Church another uh this man we can mention for
01:03:38
sure John rosi it's a name that nobody ever heard of and Jim what do you think about the third name uh well the third
01:03:47
name um third name was uh wasn't a supect at one point we'll we'll just say it now while
01:04:02
this poem it's just a poem and this was the problem for me was it could have been written by anybody could have been
01:04:10
written by an insane person but it was lose importance it was how he deemed it important and
01:04:20
and asking me for his help and finding out who wrote it that these three names had to be important
01:04:27
so one was a member of St John's Church the other guy's name was John rosi and the third was mvin
01:04:36
Pew now the poem this is an accusation so they're saying so the the writer of this poem is saying these
01:04:44
three men Were Somehow involved in the murder of John Ben Ramsey that's what the poem is making reference to correct
01:04:52
yep okay so we have that now we so we have the per we have the two poems we have the person
01:05:00
who delivered one of the poems I get the name of the writer of the poem we contact
01:05:08
her there were others I'm not sure if they want their names involved so I'm just going to leave it out but there
01:05:15
were other people involved with helping me it wasn't this wasn't just me and my brother at this point
01:05:22
but event you know Lee Hill came back from Asia to help us out to try to get this person to
01:05:31
talk and this person eventually did and eventually this person who was a member of St John's Church admitted to rioting
01:05:39
the manuri and D poem they would not admit to writing the three men poem because you're naming names you're
01:05:46
making accusations and you know there's some when you start reading it and you start breaking down each
01:05:59
stanza there's some truth you know that you there's some truth to it that you're
01:06:07
about to see and you can understand why nobody would want to cop to writing it because there may
01:06:14
be legal ramifications for what happened now we continued our investigation with
01:06:23
the poem and now the the years are going by so now you're talking this was now so now
01:06:31
we have the writer the writer doesn't really want to cooperate cooperated for a short
01:06:37
time but then backed away okay so we keep digging Jim what would what would you say would be the next big break that we
01:06:49
took after that well just going back to uh the names on the list real quick just
01:06:54
to state facts of the case you know alleging you know the allegations that are there mvin Pew also looked at as a
01:07:01
suspect early on did receive a DNA test and was eventually cleared according to the early DNA tests so I just wanted to
01:07:12
put that out there wait wait wait wait so he was cleared because of DNA test but he was not he didn't have to submit
01:07:20
DNA is that what we're saying I'm confused from my understanding ing they he was given a DNA test they took his
01:07:27
DNA and he was cleared he was cleared correct okay now he has an interesting name here right because mvin Pew didn't
01:07:37
one of the poems say something about Offman Pew yeah it's that's the part where it
01:07:44
says and I mean I I'm Catholic so I know what a Pew is but uh when you break down the thre
01:07:52
men poem and you look at it carefully the P the writer of this poem chose their words very specifically and wrote
01:08:00
it in a certain way to give Clues yeah for example a little you know to Sal a tale of misconstrue just look into the
01:08:10
alman's Pew it doesn't take rocket science to figure out Offman Pew is a play on the last name hofman
01:08:20
Pew you'll find there in Fort lumptons slw Fort lump is where they used to live at one point wait Hof Hoffman pews the
01:08:32
the the cleaning lady the uh housekeeper yeah and mvin pews a husband and and here's the thing I've I actually found
01:08:41
myself in a conversation about mvin Pew and and Hoffman Pew uh uh just a few days ago somebody
01:08:49
asking if if how well they were vetted and we know they were question question very quickly because
01:08:56
py points the police in the direction of Hoffman Pew because she had asked to borrow some money and they even had
01:09:05
Hoffman Pew submit some handwriting samples now and I'm going to ask you guys to
01:09:14
confirm or or uh or tell me that I'm just wrong here but it's my guess based off of my mited understanding of of
01:09:25
these two individuals that they I don't believe that they would be able to write the
01:09:33
ransom letter do you agree with me on that uh yeah I I I I would agree there were some words and some terms and some
01:09:43
phrases that were used in The Ransom note that I don't know I I wouldn't if I had to make a wager I wouldn't bet that
01:09:51
they could write that letter yeah no I I I agree with you I agree I I don't I don't think I think none of none of the
01:10:00
three names mentioned in the poem are going to write that Ransom letter I I agree and Not only was mvin Pew
01:10:07
excluded the one name that is a member of St John's Church he was excluded the person that
01:10:16
we've been advised I want to be clear here with the the listeners so we can be candid we've been advised not to say
01:10:23
this individual name corre yes that's correct correct so uh the the individual who can't be named trying to
01:10:32
get his story about his DNA a little on the confusing side because I've been given multiple
01:10:40
stories first I've been told oh yeah cleared right away in 97 but then I start getting information
01:10:50
that well maybe he his DNA sample was improperly taken so I'm told that then I'm told oh no no he was cleared in 2008
01:11:03
then I'm told oh no no no he wasn't so there's this confusion when it comes to this individual who's a member of the
01:11:12
church about his DNA there may have been somebody may have screwed up once again
01:11:21
botched by the bould the police department and I'll say it again when you start botching this much stuff
01:11:28
sometimes it could be on purpose I'm just saying that's how it appears because this case has been
01:11:35
botched all the way through and now you're telling me you can't take some people's DNA you can take right and
01:11:43
maybe some people's DNA you take wrong and to make it even worse CU everybody especially today everybody's
01:11:50
got such high hopes ah d DNA that's going to solve it finally they got outside people looking they got this
01:11:58
cold case unit DNA DNA DNA Ali gray told me back in 2007 that he was gonna start
01:12:06
collecting certain people's DNA not going to mention their names but big players in the case yeah that you would
01:12:13
assume have been excluded and were via DNA and when I asked Ali why he was doing that he was like Yeah there may be
01:12:22
problems with uh some people's DNA where you know we may have to do it again and do it right so if you can't
01:12:32
even trust who's been excluded how you going to solve this case via DNA some fascinating information and
01:12:48
fascinating insights into Boulder Colorado we want to know we want to hear from you please go to True Crim
01:12:57
garage.com we have our blog there get involved in the conversation we want to know what you think about these two
01:13:03
poems that we've reviewed here this week join us back here in the garage for part
01:13:08
three with the zel Brothers until then be good be kind and don't [Music] litter [Music]
01:13:50
look around you can find cars like these on auto trader like that car right in your tail or if you're tailgating right
01:13:56
now all those cars doubling as kitchens and living rooms are on auto trader too are you working out and listening to
01:14:02
this ad at the same time well multitasking Pro cars like the ones in the gym parking lot are for sale on auto
01:14:08
trader new cars used cars electric cars maybe even flying cars okay no flying cars but as soon as they get invented
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they'll be on auto trader just you wait Auto Trader