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[Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to true crab garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for
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listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always a man who was whelmed but not
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listening thanks for telling a friend [Music] this week we are very happy to be featuring ninja vers unicorn by the
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creativeminds over at pipeworks Brewing Company garage grade a big four and a half bottle caps out of five this is a
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crime garage and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's
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talk some true crime [Music] Stephen Paul Elliott Smith known simply as Elliott was born in Omaha Nebraska on
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August 6 1969 an only child his parents were Gary Smith a den student at the University of Nebraska
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Medical Center and bunny Kay Berryman elementary school music teacher seemingly Elliott followed his mother's
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creative footsteps with his shared passion for music he went on to become a claimed singer songwriter and a skillful
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instrumentalists Elliott was just 6 months old when his parents got divorced following this his mother uprooted to
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Duncanville Texas with her infant son it was there where she met her new partner
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Charlie Welsh and began what was reportedly agonizing chapter and Smith's young life Elliott was said to endure a
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turbulent relationship with a stepfather he claimed his childhood was tainted by
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cruelty and sexual abuse his allegations have been denied by Welsh though Charlie
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is referenced and Elliott's songs including flowers for Charlie and no confidence man despite his hardship
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Elliott found a positive outlet he started playing piano at the age of nine soon after he was introduced to the
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acoustic guitar a gift from his biological father around this time Smith wrote fantasy original piano piece when
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in him a prize and an Arts Festival at the age of 14 Elliott went to live with his father who was working as a
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psychiatrist in Portland Oregon adolescence was a period where Smith found his artistic style he started to
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experiment with recording and played clarinet in the high school band I didn't to his repertoire of instruments
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he too sang in the bands a murder of crows and stranger than fiction billed as Stephen Smith
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or Johnny panic but Elliot was venturing down a darker path within a circle of friends drugs and alcohol were prevalent
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this behavior was considered a coping strategy a way to help navigate the inner demons of its youth
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after graduating from Lincoln High School as a National Merit Scholar Smith dropped the name Steven choosing instead
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to be called Elliott he attended Hampshire College in Elmhurst mass in 1991 he graduated with a degree and
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philosophy and political science it was in Hampshire that Elliott formed the ban
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heat miser the van made three albums before being signed to Virgin Records and releasing a final album in 1996 that
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same year Elliott moved to Brooklyn New York as an artist Elliott's known for his soft almost whispered vocals and
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complex it's simple melodies fans of his work have praised his intensely personal
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lyrics though there are themes of sadness anger and self-destruction throughout these are layered with the
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bare bones vulnerability the writing can be interpreted as both relatable and cryptic and nature in 1997 Elia would be
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approached by director Gus Van Zandt Van Zandt wanted Elliott to be a part of the
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soundtrack for the upcoming movie Good Will Hunting the soundtrack featured two songs from the album's roman candle and
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either/or with the third song miss misery following the film's outright success Elliott received a nomination
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for Academy Award for Miss misery despite being in all of the Oscars experience he was quoted to have
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described the event as surreal and otherworldly and the background Elliott was believed to be struggling with heavy
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drinking and the use of antidepressants major-label DreamWorks sign Elliott in 1998 the album EXO was released the most
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profitable accomplishment of his career sadly it was at this point Elliott's mental well-being began to decline
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he spoke openly of suicide and reportedly made at least one serious attempt to in his own life when highly
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intoxicated Elliott planned to jump to his death his fall was broken by a tree which left him injured but alive
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in the early 2000s Elliott's mental health became a serious concern he was likely experienced paranoia and
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delusions adamant that a vehicle was following his every move and that his label DreamWorks was plotting against
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him breaking into his house and stealing songs from his computer it's noted that
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Elliott may have gone days without eating or sleeping and plans to produce a follow-up album to EXO which dissolved
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reports state that Elliott complain about the intrusion of his personal life as well as poor promotion of his
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previous work he apparently begged the label to renounce all ties therefore ending his contract or else he
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threatened to take his own life in 2001 Elliott was said to be smoking up to $1500 of heroin and crack cocaine daily
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and may have tried to overdose as a result of a suicidal state his dish of 'old appearance was unrecognizable
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during the occasional performances he managed to attend it was known to exhibit alarming signs of awkwardness
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and memory loss to the point of forgetting song lyrics in late 2002 Elliott and his girlfriend Jennifer
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Shiba were involved in an altercation with the Los Angeles Police Department outside a music concert
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allegedly Elliot was trying to defend a man who was being harassed by the officers in question this resulted in a
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brawl and Elliot being arrested concerned over Elliot's appearance emerged he was described as looking out
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of control after Elliot's arrest things were looking more promising in January and February of 2003 achieved to sell
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out acoustic shows at the Henry Fonda Theatre in Hollywood outwardly it appeared he was aiming to regain his
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integrity as a performer it's been speculated that Elliot had attempted rehab several times to no avail
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I couldn't do the first step he stated I couldn't say what you're supposed to say
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and mean it after his 34th birthday though Elliot cut out alcohol and ended his long-term use of psychiatric
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medication he also gave up caffeine red meat and refined sugar hopeful of recovery after many years of unease he
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began to re-emerge himself into recording exploring different styles and recording techniques elliot played red
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Fest at the University of Utah on September 19th 2003 his closing song was the Beatles long long long this would be
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Elliott's final performance on October 21st 2003 paramedics were called to Elliot's home in Echo Park
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California his girlfriend Jennifer who shared the home with Elliot made the call Elliot was found with two stab
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wounds to the chest and he could not be revived at 1:36 p.m. Elliot Smith was pronounced dead and Jennifer's account
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following an argument with Elliot she took a shower locking the bathroom door hearing a unnerving scream she opened
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the door to find Elliot standing with a knife in his chest on impulse she pulled
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the knife out causing him to collapse she promptly called 911 18 p.m. a suicide no written on a post it was
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rumored to be nearby the note read I'm sorry love Elliot God forgive me was this the result of Elliot's in her
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pain and act that he's been threatening for a long time or is there something more to this story
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suicide or homicide there are unanswered questions and mysteries surrounding the
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events October 21st 2003 what really happened to Elliot Smith [Music] all right there's a lot to unpack here
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and the question becomes suicide or homicide and because of the inconclusive autopsy ruling the Los Angeles Police
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Department's investigation remains open on this case so even though most people say it's a suicide why would the
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investigation remain open yeah this is a tricky one because we have a situation here where there seems to be some kind
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of argument and it seems like it was a big argument yeah and then later what we have is we have one man dead
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and then the only person that is there to tell us what could have happened or what led to this individuals death is
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somebody that you might suspect could have a reason for killing this man so it's it's very difficult when you only
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have this one let's call it eyewitness to to talk to you have to go off of what their statements are and based off of
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the scientific evidence that's out there now his girlfriend Jennifer Chiba what she claims is that they were in an
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argument for several hours now this is backed up by neighbors hearing yelling hearing doors slam hearing cabinets slam
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so that part of the story we could believe what Jennifer is saying because it's backed up by other witnesses so
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there are many points of speculation and many things that point to suicide or homicide so we want to dive into each
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one of those points the first one being that there is no hesitation wounds so what that means is normally when
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somebody commits suicide by knife which is a very small percent of all suicides normally and they actually put this in
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the same category as a stabbing or cutting like somebody cutting the wrists they put this in the same category that
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is still a very small percentage of all suicides now normally when somebody stabs himself
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there's hesitation wounds right meaning there's a couple marks around the actual
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area where they stab Elliot was actually stabbed twice which is also unusual mm-hmm now here's where it gets a little
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convoluted because the hesitation wounds can actually have been destroyed by him
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actually stabbing himself so there could have been hesitation wounds but because
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he was stabbed twice those could have got rid of the evidence of the hesitation wounds so these two stab
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wounds that that led to his death these are deep stab wounds so what you're saying is there could have been a one or
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two quick little stab marks that you cannot detect now because these two are so big yeah and when I originally heard
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of Elliot Smith suicide I remember hearing that the rumor was because I was a big Good Will Hunting
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fan and to know Elliot through that movie basically that's how I knew of his music I remember the rumor was that
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Elliot Smith oh that super depressed singer-songwriter guy yes he took his own life how did he take his own life
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he stabbed himself in the heart with the spoon that was the rumor that I heard for years and then I started thinking
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well maybe it wasn't the doll into the spoon it would been the handle of the spoon but now having the time to
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investigate he okay he stabbed himself twice in the chest or that's what the speculation is so the other strange
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thing about there being no hesitation marks is the majority of the people that actually stabbed themselves do so not
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through clothing so if they have a shirt on the lifter shirt up or unbutton the shirt and so when they go to stab
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themselves his knife through skin and that is it not the case and the Elliot Smith's death he stabs himself through
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the shirt and so you're gonna stab yourself twice through the shirt another thing that
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points more towards homicide than suicide well and some people might be thinking well that's a crazy thing to
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say stabbing through a shirt is very uncommon but straight from the autopsy report here's what we have from their
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own words is there are several aspects of the circumstances that are atypical of suicide and raise the possibility of
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homicide these include the absence of hesitation wounds stabbing through clothing in the presence of small
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incised wounds on the right arm and left hand possible defensive wounds so he was
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stabbed with a kitchen knife with a regular one you know just a blade on one side one sharp side kitchen knife
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all right so the first point the no hesitation wounds I'm going to say we don't know if they were they're not so
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to me that doesn't point either way to suicide or homicide yeah oh yeah I agree 100% the other thing here too is I could
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see a situation where there was there was never going to be any hesitation wounds right you know if we have if we
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have this guy let's say he's just angered out of his mind mm-hmm we know they're in an argument we know they're
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in an argument he picks up what's readily available a kitchen knife from his kitchen and boom one in and boom
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another one so according to the coroner report to the autopsy right the cause of
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death is stab wounds to the chest each stab wound is considered fatal per se you know meaning if this were to be
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untreated for any length of time this guy's going to die right and they say that the second wound appears to have
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been deeper than the first because they're saying that there is a periphery a ting wound to the heart
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associated with stab wound too well and the situation that gets difficult here is like you said the there they cannot
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fine hesitation wounds on this individual so I'm with you it could go either way when
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you when there is a an offender stabbing a victim you typically will not see any
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hesitation wounds because they are attacking the individual right so on the second point him stabbing himself
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through a shirt to me that doesn't seem super likely not impossible obviously but you know the coroner is even saying
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hey this is this is something that we look at this leads more to the side of homicide so I go okay
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no no hesitation marks I don't know what that means so we can lean on the side of
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suicide there but with the stabbing through the shirt I go to me that leans homicide yeah and that's exactly what
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they are saying in their report in the medical report this is one of the reasons to point toward homicide rather
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than suicide so I'll agree with that as well the difficult thing here is the shirt is described as a black t-shirt
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again I could see a situation this guy's so angered out of his mind that there's
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there's no cooling down going on for this guy yeah I agree that it could be pick up pick up the readily available
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knife through the t-shirt you know taking off the shirt may have provided a cooling down period to go wait a second
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what am i doing what am i what what's going on here right and that's I think so we both agree that we'll lean towards
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homicide on that point yeah but but but it's not impossible not impossible but I'm going to agree with the expert
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opinion here yeah the other one too is that there's actually bone breakage or damage to the bone with the stabbings
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and there's two again this is difficult because it's not a situation where he's home by himself and and he's just
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depressed and decided that's it he's in an argument but most of the time when they see a suicide by stabbing or
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cutting or cutting there is the they're not hitting bone a lot of that time I'm guessing from the
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cutting situation would be cutting at the wrists yeah you're not gonna hit bone they're likely I think he should
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make the percentage way lower much much lower and I think that the situation here is very difficult to really get a
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grasp on what the percentage would be here because of the location of the stab wounds so the location of the stab
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wounds it would be very difficult not to hit or break bone right in that location
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so but I do want to point out one thing while we're you know talking about these
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stab wounds is they do point out in the autopsy report that the stab wounds are consistent with self-infliction okay so
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what they mean by that is the angle of these stab wounds it would not have been impossible for him to have done this
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himself right so it's not we're not talking about a Fahmy Malak type autopsy report where there's a gunshot wound to
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somebody you know in their back or the back of the head and in a weird location this is a location these two stab wounds
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are right to the chest to the chest cavity and he could have done this you know from this angle he could have done
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this himself or it could be also consistent with somebody lunging at him with a knife well and then you have the
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angle of the blade and the rumor that I heard is that the angle that the blade was at is more consistent with homicide
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than suicide but with it being such a small blade I wonder if that even matters or if that should be something
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that we even take into play that is too difficult for me to get a grasp on from looking at the autopsy report I cannot
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figure out if these are vertical or horizontal right wounds the there is a diagram on there now people can find
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portions I couldn't find the entire autopsy report but you can find portions of this and it looks to me judging by
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reports that I've read in the past and what I can see on the the papers I have here my guess is that this autopsy
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report is probably anywhere from 14 to 21 pages long Wow but I could find five pages of the
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actual autopsy report so the one page that I have that has the diagram of of his body and where they're marking out
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the wounds it's the two wounds that they have here it looks like they're indicating that these would be vertical
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stab wounds but I can't say 100% because of the way that this is drawn out and the the notes that were taken on this
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diagram are all written in shorthand yeah and so it's it's difficult for me to say what what the medical examiner
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was was trying to convey here in this diagram because you know for her it's it's very very likely especially if she
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she determines that it's suicide it's a document that is only necessary for her so it's not like it has to be typed out
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they would type these out typically and more detail right but that page is missing from what I could find so I
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wonder if that has something to do with the fact that they haven't closed the investigation or it might just be the
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website where I got this from is not okay so it's not like a typical website where you would go hunting for autopsy
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reports they this just might be the portion that they decided to release on their website if that makes sense right
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right so they're they're taking a bit of creative control here and decided look a
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lot of this is is medical mumbo-jumbo and it won't be of interest to our readers so we will we will present the
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the pages that are of most interest or what we think that they will find most entrance interest in but like you were
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saying if if in fact these are vertical wounds I mean trying to make the motion myself
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with my right hand or left hand that does make it a little more difficult I could see if they were horizontal wounds
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it being easier to stab myself in the chest and give more force and thrust right and I think what I'm gonna cross
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the chest like as if you're like beating your chest mm-hmm I could see that being
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more vertical and but to your point is that if these are in fact vertical wounds that would be more consistent
00:27:43
with a homicide with somebody you know lunging forward and attacking him [Music]
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your first purchase that's third love comm / garage for 15% off today [Music] all right back to the open investigation
00:30:50
of Elliott Smith suicide or homicide the other thing that is strange here is like
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you said there's defensive wounds and right when you hear the term defensive wounds you go
00:31:03
aha yeah AHA got him but these defensive wounds it's not that simple there's not
00:31:12
a lot of defensive wounds on the hands where you would think somebody that was trying to defend themselves would be
00:31:20
marked up more again though it's also hard to figure out because it's not like we have the knife in front of us and if
00:31:30
it's just like a more of a doll kitchen knife you might not see as many defensive wounds as you would with like
00:31:38
a sharp butcher knife yeah and they're not saying for certain that these are in fact defensive wounds because if they
00:31:47
were 100% on that they're going to go okay this is not only an undetermined death right this is a huh this is a
00:31:55
homicide and we need to look at this or further investigate it into to the point
00:31:59
to where we can say it's not a homicide so the thing with these two wounds and it may be more than two but it says the
00:32:08
presence of a small incised wounds on the right arm and left hand and then they say possible defensive wounds so I
00:32:18
could see you know obviously with the hand you the in a lot of times when there are attacks you see several cuts
00:32:26
to the hands right where the person is able to fend off the attacker for a decent amount of time until the till
00:32:32
their end up they end up being attacked to the point of their death but I don't I don't think I fully understand the the
00:32:40
wound to the right arm it's it's more like towards the chest area right or towards the shoulder area it am i right
00:32:49
about that or you could be from from this report though again this is in shorthand so I don't know what
00:32:56
this mark is indicating here on the right arm it looks like it could be more than halfway up the arm right and this
00:33:05
is where it gets strange for me too because we have reports of them slamming doors and flaming cabinets and we all
00:33:14
know one of our friends that have gotten in an argument and punched something you
00:33:19
know whether it was a refrigerator or a door or in so I wondered is it possible that Elliot was upset and tried to punch
00:33:27
something or and and and maybe there's no evidence of him I once punched a skillet it was the dumbest thought but
00:33:38
at the time you're just an argument you're upset punched he you don't really punch something that you shouldn't punch
00:33:46
and so I just wondered if any of these wounds to the hand would be something that would happen from from that the way
00:33:54
that it's described sounds almost like a some form of cut though which would go to the thought of defensive wound
00:34:02
because of the knife being the what ended up killing Elliot Smith I think the the difficult thing here is I'd we
00:34:12
don't have Jennifer I don't know anything about his girlfriend right I don't know where they line up size-wise
00:34:20
compared to one another if well he was bigger than her but but not you know right and what what I'm getting at here
00:34:27
is that I think that we I feel like I would see a situation if this was a homicide that there would be many more
00:34:35
defensive wounds I agree - Elliot Smith because I think he would have been able to fight her off or fend
00:34:43
her off for a good amount of time and keep in mind we know let's let's pretend he was attacked okay let's pretend for a
00:34:50
moment this was a homicide we know that he would have been attacked straight on face to face right because that's where
00:34:58
the wounds came from yeah it's it's not like we have a situation where we can think that he would have been attacked
00:35:04
but from behind and it was a bit of a sneak attack or anything like that this would be
00:35:10
a situation where he would be able to defend himself for a decent amount of time and I think for me the small amount
00:35:17
of speculative defensive wounds points to maybe those are either self-inflicted or caused from something else once she
00:35:26
claims that you know they're arguing for hours and hours and finally she's like this is nuts right I'm going I'm gonna
00:35:34
take a shower and I'm gonna get away and then once she goes in he's now telling her to come out you know basically a if
00:35:42
you don't come out you know I'm gonna kill myself he's threatening to kill himself according to her right and again
00:35:50
we don't know her but we know his life and somebody that has talked about suicide as openly as he did for one but
00:36:01
- we've seen it time and time again where he would threaten this hey you don't want me you don't want to let me
00:36:06
out of my record contract I'll kill myself that song record so at least we can say
00:36:13
hey there is some evidence that backs up what Jennifer is saying I go to the bathroom we're in this argument and then
00:36:21
it becomes you know come out or I'm gonna kill myself now she says she's only in there like five to ten minutes
00:36:28
for this five to ten minutes is Elliott walking around with the knife it you know does he you know accidentally cut
00:36:36
himself in the hand or does he does he purposely do it who knows we we won't we just don't know but I believe that part
00:36:46
of her story because we have evidence to back that up so it would be interesting
00:36:51
to know which side the blade was on the sharp side of the knife / his wounds and
00:37:00
I say that because with with where this wound is on the arm right I I could see that that maybe because if he did stab
00:37:13
himself he stabbed himself twice in the chest at least right and so we know the knife was removed from the body and then
00:37:20
entered the body again I almost wonder if the the wound to the hand or to the arm if it's a possibility
00:37:28
depending on what side the blade was on could that have been from the knife being removed and the other thing we
00:37:36
should keep in mind too is she Jennifer when she finds Elliott he's still awake and according to her report is standing
00:37:47
at the time that she finds him she removes the knife from his chest yeah so let's unpack this this part of the story
00:37:55
a little bit more well see real quick here but just before it before before I forget this thought completely might
00:38:03
where I'm going with this too is could this have been could he have put his hand to his chest grasping at the pain
00:38:11
and she removes the knife and then that that knife upon that removal could cause
00:38:16
the wound to the hand there's ways that these could be right these wounds could have occurred without them being an
00:38:22
intentional by him or her well yeah and part of that story is that she pulls the
00:38:28
knife from him he collapses look at though that the one chest wound or the shoulder wound whatever were calling it
00:38:35
is it possible when she pulls the knife out that he falls into the knife so because he does collapse so that that's
00:38:44
a possibility to explain away some of those what's very difficult is Jennifer was trained extensively in first-aid and
00:38:54
so she would have known that you do not pull the knife out you just add pressure
00:39:02
you call 9-1-1 you add pressure you do not take the knife out because sometimes pulling the knife out causes more damage
00:39:09
than it does going in there are some people that she has worked with that have came forward and said hey I went to
00:39:17
the classes with her she knew she knew better but then on the flip side the argument becomes yes that's when you're
00:39:27
in a controlled environment there's no panic there's no blood no she comes out of the bathroom because she hears this
00:39:36
agonizing scream he turns around there's a knife in him she pulls it out now people that are gonna say hey this is
00:39:46
homicide but what a great way to cover it up oh he stabbed himself where I stabbed
00:39:54
him I'll just tell everybody I pulled the knife out that explains why my fingerprints are on this knife yeah that
00:40:02
explains why my hands are bloody when you when my authorities show up right and so it's kind of weird to me that
00:40:12
people that she worked with would come forward and say hey we took these classes together she knows better so to
00:40:19
me that part it's again it's tough it's that gray area because there's a part of
00:40:26
me that goes yes she knew what to do in class but you've been in a heated argument with somebody that you love or
00:40:36
somebody that you live with somebody you're connected with somebody that has had a lot of issues and and so then you
00:40:46
freak out and you pull out a knife you do something you're not supposed to do but she did call 911
00:40:54
the the words of the medical examiner are this additionally the girlfriend's reported removal of the knife and
00:41:01
subsequent refusal to speak with detectives are all of concern so this is not our opinion that the removal of the
00:41:10
knife is a concern it's the opinion of Los Angeles County right now I did I did find something sorry because I'm reading
00:41:20
as we are doing this because I was looking for more information on these other what we were talking about just
00:41:28
before the possible defensive wounds we also wanted to cover this a little different we want to have it be more
00:41:33
like off-the-record just kind of a open discussion captain wanted me going into this blind let's say yeah with very
00:41:41
little information or knowledge about the case so according to the body examination from Los Angeles County
00:41:49
a small slight laceration is noted to the palm of the left and right hand and another slight laceration is noted under
00:41:59
the upper right arm as well so under the upper right arm that's a little that's away from the heart so that that's
00:42:08
likely not caused by what I thought of possibly removing the knife after the first stab and then stabbing myself
00:42:15
again but the the thing that's tricky here is but if she removed the knife and he collapse forward the knife could have
00:42:24
hit him under the right arm the small slight laceration is noted to the palm on the left and right hand which is
00:42:34
possible if he's using both hands to stab himself hmm it could have slipped on the second
00:42:42
stabbing yeah so that that's a possibility but again it's strange but also consistent with me putting my hands
00:42:49
up trying to stop an attack but I would expect there where they say small slight
00:42:54
laceration if I've put my hands up and in a way to stop someone from attacking me and I'm hitting the palm with with
00:43:03
that knife I'm expecting to see there's gonna be force there's gonna be power behind that blade and I would expect
00:43:10
there to be these to be deep wounds to the palms I mean you could almost envision a scenario where he's picking
00:43:18
up a knife and test it real quick on one hand right because you I mean if he's determined to do this he's going to grab
00:43:26
a sharp knife and like you said the the the other hand could have simply been from slippage from now we have we have
00:43:34
blood entered into the equation we got a slippery situation his hand could have slipped for the second stab wound and
00:43:41
mind you we do know that based off of the the how deep these two wounds are very likely the second stab wound was
00:43:53
with more power with more force which is strange to me because to me that leans more homicide than suicide because you
00:44:02
would think to the first stab he would be weakened he'd be weakened but again adrenaline I
00:44:10
mean you know hmm you know it's you know it's such a what's also sad about this is here's a guy that went through all
00:44:21
this stuff and obviously had some trauma from his younger days and wrestling with
00:44:30
a lot of stuff but seemed like he was turning turning a corner and even afterwards his girlfriend said it didn't
00:44:39
make any sense because he was so healthy did this was probably the healthiest he
00:44:44
had been since the time she had known him right that doesn't mean that he didn't relapse because you know I think
00:44:52
with depression or at least everybody deals with depression differently but I've always with friends or family
00:44:59
members that don't really understand depression or you know I you know I've had people tell me I've been depressed a
00:45:08
couple times but I don't understand a daily depression or or you just live with depression throughout your life
00:45:16
well to me it's very similar to like alcoholism or something where it's like you wake up and you need to do certain
00:45:23
things every day to kind of keep yourself above that low level and and so is it possible that he was eating better
00:45:33
and exercising and and staying away from drugs and and all that kind of stuff and
00:45:38
then he just but he still had a relapse of things aren't going so well today and
00:45:45
we just happen to get an argument and that just pushes him over the edge well so we have a couple things here and
00:45:52
this is from Jennifer statements we said that you know according to the report that her refusal to speak with
00:45:58
detectives is of concern which should be but in her statement was she stated to either law enforcement or to the medical
00:46:08
examiner I believe this would be to law enforcement is that Jennifer stated that the decedent has
00:46:16
suffered from depression all of his life he had a history of multiple narcotics addiction heroin crack and alcohol abuse
00:46:25
although he had been clean for over one year he engaged in self-mutilating behavior and would burn himself with
00:46:34
cigarettes he has a history of one possible suicide attempt but they go on to say that it's unknown details or
00:46:43
timeframe or circumstances and has a consistent history of verbal suicide threats right the decedent sought
00:46:54
treatment for his depression from several psychiatrist and was being treated with multiple prescription drugs
00:47:01
and according to the toxicology report the only substances they found in his system at the time of his death were all
00:47:10
prescribed medication those you know these are therapeutic medications or that's what their right price for
00:47:19
there's no traces of illegal substances or alcohol mm-hmm because what's not clear as we go hey these these
00:47:26
medications were prescribed what I would like to know is when when were they prescribed and not just saying like I'm
00:47:35
talking about when was the initial hey we're gonna put you on X drug to help you with depression was that six weeks
00:47:43
ago was that he's been on it for a year because sometimes they have reverse effects and I've had friends that have
00:47:51
had a mild case of depression never having suicidal thoughts and then getting on antidepressants instead of it
00:48:00
working now they have suicidal thoughts and so again I wonder is this some were they trying something out because
00:48:09
sometimes it takes weeks and weeks for these to take effect in a good way or a negative way so that could be a possible
00:48:20
reason why this person that was now clean and getting their stuff together and the health
00:48:27
yes quote-unquote he's been since Jennifer knew him that he would be in the state that he would want to stab
00:48:34
himself not once but twice what and medications are such a difficult thing and I I do not I do not care for doctors
00:48:44
that just kind of willy-nilly prescribe things to people I know that that it seems like the medical profession that
00:48:52
people are getting better about that doctors are getting more strict about that and policing themselves as well
00:48:57
have their patient right but that's what happens when the lawsuits happen yeah but I I can recall two situations for me
00:49:05
once I was prescribed Ritalin and I was on it for several months it made me incredibly like I can't even
00:49:14
explain how depressed I was right and that's the only I don't know 100% that it came from the Ritalin but that was
00:49:23
the only thing that was different in my life at that time right and so I you know finally got smart and quit taking
00:49:31
it and then another situation I had where I was going through some anxiety stuff and asked my doctor for to
00:49:39
prescribe something and I cannot recall the name of what I was prescribed but I took it on a Sunday and this was like a
00:49:47
narcotic though this was one of those deals where you get the prescription and it has to have like the stamp like the
00:49:52
it's written on special paper and so I got this thing and I called my doctor on Monday the day after I took one and I
00:50:04
said we got a we got to get some other kind of prescription here and she said what's the problem I said I took one of
00:50:11
these and I felt like I shot gun eight beers like I was I was athle up I mean I was so the medication has been a
00:50:26
difficult thing but according to the autopsy report and according to statements from his girlfriend Jennifer
00:50:31
he was clean for over a year now she stated in this report to that she knew him for four years yeah and that they
00:50:40
were together for one year and they were living together at the time I wonder is
00:50:46
this a situation where maybe they liked each other and she's like look dude you're you're on some hardcore drugs
00:50:52
right clean your [ __ ] up and we might be able to have a relationship yeah I mean
00:50:58
or this is you know somebody she admired and when you know he's really talented but that doesn't mean you want to be in
00:51:04
a relationship with a talent and talented drug addict because that's what he was yeah and as you said Jennifer
00:51:13
pulled the knife out of the decedent's chest and saw two cuts on his chest I find that a strange statement yeah a
00:51:20
little bit strange that she he's wearing a black t-shirt we can assume there's quite a bit of blood involved I don't
00:51:26
know how the shirt would have been tore from those from those two stab wounds right but I think to visibly and to
00:51:35
immediately notice two wounds seems a little strange to me well right but let's okay yes a little bit because he
00:51:44
did collapse right yes so it's one of those things where it's like she goes why I pulled the knife out then I saw
00:51:50
these two stab wounds he walks away from her after she pulls out the knife and then collapses but but then at some
00:51:57
point she calls 911 and yes she then goes over and tries to help him right she called 911 immediately according to
00:52:05
her statement and performed citizen CPR and First Aid with operator assistance until paramedics arrived right and so on
00:52:13
the 9-1-1 call would have at least evidence of that or evidence of her faking that yeah cuz we have seen
00:52:23
situations where people are like no he couldn't have killed his wife he clearly performed CPR on her you can hear it on
00:52:30
the 9-1-1 call and then scientifically they determined later that the the husband faked right you know just
00:52:37
pretended to be doing the chest compressions or any form of C but again when she goes over calls 911 and maybe
00:52:44
she saw the two stab wounds then just making the statement that you saw two stab wounds they're claiming that she's
00:52:52
saying it right away I pulled the knife I see the two stab wounds according to their statement
00:52:58
according to their statement what I'm saying is though as you know before the paramedics get there if she noticed that
00:53:04
there was two stab wounds I want to think that was too odd right because we do know that she if if she's to be
00:53:11
believed she was performing CPR on him at some point would have noticed if she didn't notice them immediately she would
00:53:17
have definitely even noticed the two stab wounds then I would guess yeah and and so then the paramedics come and then
00:53:24
they take him to the hospital and he's yeah he's alive at this time he's not awake yeah I can't speak to anybody but
00:53:32
he technically passes away at the hospital again I think this points more toward suicide because somebody that has
00:53:41
this knowledge quote/unquote this knowledge of first-aid if somebody was going to commit homicide and tried to
00:53:51
cover it up why don't you wait a little bit longer to call 9-1-1 yeah yeah and so it's the you know because again when
00:54:03
you hear stories I mean the first story that I heard was he stabbed himself with
00:54:07
a spoon I remember thinking at the time because I was pretty young and and being
00:54:15
an artist or trying to be an artist think he knew what a artsy way to go the guy stabbed himself with the spoon well
00:54:26
then you come to find out it was not well that's like the telephone game you know what I mean against right or some
00:54:32
guy who goes fishing the fish gets bigger every time he tells the story yeah well that's also that's also like
00:54:37
fandom though right like yeah fans are going in and rightfully so this was a very talented individual and I you can
00:54:46
see a situation where where fans are going he was not a regular man he can't have regular means of death right right
00:54:54
even though he threatened suicide multiple times he would never have taken his own life
00:55:00
and if he did it would have been with a spoon or something dramatic oh yeah although they
00:55:06
certainly in itself let's say let's let's pretend it is 100% suicide you know this is very dramatic a very
00:55:17
dramatic fashion so but again I think some of that is maybe not so much dramatic as it is adrenaline anywhere
00:55:25
else oh yeah and very impulsive and I and I think somebody that struggled obviously he's impulsive I mean he was a
00:55:33
crackhead at one point so I think that is evidence of impulsivity and so you have a situation where he can't control
00:55:43
this he's had a hard time controlling himself okay now I can control it by taking my life or or you know and and
00:55:54
look for all we know he was going I'm I'm gonna do it I'm gonna stab myself and she could have said go ahead go
00:56:03
ahead and stab yourself and a lot of people would go well then she's responsible on some level I would argue
00:56:11
that this is probably not the first argument they had and I'd also probably argue this is probably not the first
00:56:17
time that they were an argument that he probably threatened to kill himself he seems like somebody I mean if you're
00:56:24
threatening to kill yourself to your record label how many other people have you tried to use that right and one
00:56:32
thing I do want to clear up to make sure that we're clear on this is in her statement where she says so in in the
00:56:41
County of Los Angeles in there investigators narrative what they're saying here is he has a history of one
00:56:50
possible suicide attempt but they go on to say unknown details unknown timeframe
00:56:55
unknown circumstances that's because this is just simply her jennifer saying yeah i I think he attempted suicide on
00:57:04
one other occasion but she's unable to provide any details of such so they're they're being very clear with their
00:57:11
statement of that is that they're not definitively saying that he has a history of suicide attempts right again
00:57:18
and it could be some fandom but the there the rumor for the longest time was that he tried to kill himself
00:57:25
in a tree broke the fall which left him injured but he wasn't dead and then there was also reports that he actually
00:57:32
od'd multiple times on drugs and then that becomes 2d just OD because he was using heroin and we're using tried out
00:57:40
or was it on purpose so when you have somebody that it's od'd multiple times then you go okay well which one is it
00:57:48
and then you could also make an argument that how much do you value your life if
00:57:55
you're constantly using these drugs that could possibly kill you every time that you use them this this
00:58:02
is a difficult one for me because I I just always heard these rumors and this was one that was actually brought up by
00:58:11
listeners several times and it would be random it'd just be and it wasn't multiple it was never multiple times
00:58:20
there's never like I got an email that said check out Elliot Smith suicide and and let me know what you think I think
00:58:28
there's something more there well again first looking at it you start going suicide homicide well I think LAPD has
00:58:37
it right right now just open because they don't know for sure yeah and I think they're leaving that open in hopes
00:58:48
that if it was homicide that maybe Jennifer will say something maybe she'll slip up and tell somebody something and
00:58:56
then that is what will lead them down to the charging her with something I don't
00:59:05
think that's gonna happen and I don't know if this case will ever get close just because there's so many things that
00:59:13
point to homicide other you know rather than suicide but I think the suicide note for me and I think that's the last
00:59:24
point but to me the biggest point there is a suicide note yes it's only on a post-it note
00:59:31
right now the rumors for a long time was that you know it says let me read it again doesn't have much to it but a
00:59:43
possible suicide note write it on a post-it note read I am sorry love Eliot God forgive me now the name Eliot there
00:59:56
was rumors that it was spelled wrong cuz Eliot he spells it with two T's and in the coroner's report it was spelled with
01:00:03
one T well that's all it was it was misspelled on the coroner's report by somebody other than Elliot Smith right
01:00:14
so it it wasn't misspelled on the post-it note spelled correctly on the posted note but in the coroner's report
01:00:21
it was it was spelled incorrectly so that was a rumor yeah something that I heard for years
01:00:28
that oh yeah well there was a suicide note it's kind of weird that it's on opposed to note and they spelled Elliot
01:00:34
wrong well and here's here's their exact statement a copy of a suicide note was provided by LAPD detective King original
01:00:42
will be provided on 1020 303 so at the time that this documents created they've not received the original and they just
01:00:53
have a copy right and what they're saying is the note was handwritten on a post-it and stated quote I'm so sorry
01:01:01
love Elliot with 1t God forgive me the note is not dated right so here's here's where it gets weird so detective King
01:01:11
could have wrote this out and handed it to him and said this I'll get you the I'll get you the original again four
01:01:16
years I heard that there was a suicide note but the name was spelled wrong now now we know that that was just it was
01:01:24
just a myth Tyla error yeah so here's where it gets weird cuz we go okay they believe or at least all the speculation
01:01:36
that I've seen is that this note was written by Elliot Smith I am sorry love Elliot God forget
01:01:45
I would like for them to examine just the God forgive me because I am I'm so sorry love Elliott how many fights were
01:01:54
they in that week that led to a bigger fight and is it possible that he just wrote that out and he went for a walk
01:02:01
one yeah just left it yeah and didn't write God forgive me but again everything that I've seen says this note
01:02:09
was written by Elliott now if this note was written by Elliott Jennifer would have walked into the perfect situation
01:02:17
we're in this argument he's uh he's out of control I can't stand I can't stand him anymore I want
01:02:26
him dead I'm gonna stab him and oh look he left this little possible suicide note so now how I can stab him twice
01:02:38
pull it out I'll wait a little bit but not too long and I'll call 911 again I I I think it's more likely this guy that
01:02:49
threatened suicide multiple times was in a state of panic in the state of acting
01:02:55
erratic couldn't control the situation probably was making threats the person on the other end of the threats probably
01:03:05
thought they were hollow threats because they were hollowed threats before he writes this note it's simple but he
01:03:14
wrote it and then he stabbed himself twice and she comes out and yes she should not have pulled the knife from
01:03:23
his chest but again she called 9-1-1 when she could have waited just another five minutes or another 10 minutes or
01:03:32
another you know I mean well in another another note regarding the new it states
01:03:40
here that once the decedent was taken to the hospital police officers arrived and
01:03:46
questioned Jennifer about this incident during this questioning she was seated at the kitchen table and noted for the
01:03:53
first time a post-it note that appeared to be a suicide note left by the decedent Jennifer recognized the
01:04:01
handwriting on the note as that of the decedent and had not seen the note before that moment the knife the knife
01:04:10
the decedent used to stab himself was a regular kitchen knife that immediately prior to this incident had been sitting
01:04:17
out on a cutting board in the kitchen right so the the note according to detective king and according to these
01:04:26
police officers it's not believed that she saw that note beforehand right so they're questioning her they're talking
01:04:36
to her they're trying to figure out what's going on well he's being taken to the hospital right and she then notices
01:04:41
the note but they're there and it looked these guys are trained to read people and they're reading somebody see this
01:04:51
note for the first time well in the thing here to captain is that the way that this autopsy document reads it
01:05:00
sounds like the detectives the exact words our detectives believe this death is possibly suspicious it sounds to me
01:05:09
like they were suspicious of this whole incident as soon as they arrived on the scene right now the problem then becomes
01:05:16
the person that that's dead you can't speak to them they can't give you their account of what happened well now we
01:05:24
have this other person we only have two people in this apartment at the time that this incident occurs yeah so if
01:05:33
they are immediately suspicious they have to figure out is this person who's giving the statement Jennifer is she
01:05:42
truthful well we can't determine some of her truthfulness right here during this
01:05:48
questioning because we need scientific fact we need evidence and stuff like that
01:05:53
to tell us if she is being truthful about the exact incident but what we can figure out is as a whole do we generally
01:06:04
walk away from this conversation and believe her statement as a whole to be truthful so
01:06:12
what they're going to look for are things like okay so according to this document it does not say in here that
01:06:18
that she took a shower but for instance that's something they would use because according to the statement is she took a
01:06:25
shower and then heard the scream this leads me to believe that she had to end her shower abruptly and go out to find
01:06:32
him well first off when I'm talking to this individual does she look like she recently took a shower is her hair still
01:06:39
wet right does she look like she was in a shower that was interrupted okay we spoke to the neighbors yes they heard
01:06:46
shouting they heard some kind of argument so what they're going to do is if they are suspicious of this person
01:06:53
they are going to look for reasons to feed their suspicions or look for reasons to believe her story or her
01:07:00
story is being truthful about points of the story so again if she were to have attacked him we know this would have
01:07:10
been a face to face attack this would have been a head-on attack we see very few possible defensive wounds and then
01:07:18
on top of that they're going to be looking at her and saying does she look like she had just been in a fight does
01:07:25
is there any marks or scratches or anything on her that would lead me to believe that she's recently been in some
01:07:32
type of altercation or some type of fight where she attacked this man right and I think if they would have seen
01:07:40
those if that would have been obvious to them or if any points of the shower or the neighbors didn't you know confirm
01:07:48
the argument they would have backed all that stuff up and they would have piled it up against her to leave - to have the
01:07:56
suspicion meter tilt more toward homicide right so that it could be further investigated as such so I think
01:08:06
here what I'm going to go off of is similar to you I my determination from the outside looking in would be yes
01:08:16
there is cause to question this right as a suicide but for me there are more things that point towards suicide as
01:08:24
well as the 911 call if in fact it was placed immediately that really points to me
01:08:33
like she was just doing her best to try to save him and then on top of that I'm gonna factor in the the responding
01:08:40
officers they don't seem to know anything in this report that they believe that she was in some type of
01:08:48
fight before this this occurred so I think that I think that there's a lack of evidence to point towards homicide
01:08:58
here [Music] we'd like to hear your opinion suicide or homicide go to true crime garage calm
01:09:16
and go to the blog and let us know your thoughts there also if you're looking for old episodes download the stitcher
01:09:23
app they're all available for free on the stitcher app and our weekly show off the record on stitcher premium is
01:09:30
available just go to our website and click on the off the record link and if anybody wants to learn more about
01:09:37
Elliott Smith this great artist you can find a lot of his music and videos on the Internet I would recommend Son of
01:09:45
Sam is a good one as well as his performance in the late 90s on Saturday Night Live if anybody's looking to check
01:09:52
out more of Elliott's myths good good stuff that he did give to us while he was here I recommend doing that all
01:10:01
right until next week be good be kind don't live [Music] [Applause] [Music]