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GameChanger [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:44
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always as a man who has mad hits like Rod Karu he is the captain Oh
00:01:52
How I miss Adam yal the genius that is Adam yaal it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for listening and
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00:02:20
wonderful double IPA brewed with panda leaves and saber hops it's got a bit of a sweet finish to it which I like
00:02:29
chasing the bitterness ABV 88.3% garage grade 4 and 34 bottle caps out of five and this week our fridge is loaded up
00:02:38
thanks to our good friends first up we have Sophie Ash and Alba all from Shipley England yeah and monkeys might
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everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] [Music]
00:04:21
crime it took almost 2 years to find the remains of Heather Church in the crime scene where the remains were found off
00:04:29
offered no clues as to who the perpetrator of this abduction and murder could be the Daily Sentinel ran an
00:04:37
article with the headline girls remains found after 2year search this from the Associated Press the article labeled
00:04:45
Timothy belbeck the man who found her skull and reported his findings as a transient camper and states the death
00:04:54
was ruled a homicide and the coroner's report indicates Heather suffered blunt force trial trama to the Head this
00:05:01
article has some interesting pieces of information in here as well it goes on to say Heather was last seen wearing
00:05:08
white cotton pajamas and no shoes she had laid out an outfit for school and her bedding was rumbled as if she was
00:05:18
asleep until something had awakened her enter Lou Smith who is Lou Smith Captain he's a
00:05:27
detective that likes to climb in and out of window he's probably best known for his
00:05:33
involvement in The John Bay Ramsey case I think he's on the smaller side too captain that might make give him the the
00:05:41
extra superability of climbing in and out of Windows you think so I don't think he looks small to me but I didn't
00:05:48
either but I read some story where he decided when he first became a police officer he needed to bulk up because he
00:05:56
was like I want to say he was like five 5 6 to maybe 5'7 but like 150 lbs when he first started on the force he got
00:06:06
into some situation where he said a a large woman was attempting to drag him across the street and she was having
00:06:17
some success and that's when he decided I got to start going to the gym I got to
00:06:21
beef up if I'm going to be yeah I think that was my mother well you know I like to use the
00:06:27
term super cop loose is certainly a super cop in his career he worked on more than 200 murder cases in which a
00:06:36
suspect had been arrested and tried for their crimes he was a detective with the
00:06:42
Colorado Springs Police Department he joined the force way back in 1966 and worked his way all the way up
00:06:50
to the rank of detective Lou helped to get the arrest and conviction of spree killer Freddy Glenn and his accompl
00:06:59
Michael Corbett Glenn was found guilty of murdering three people in 1975 yeah one of them being uh Karen
00:07:08
Grammer that's correct this included the killing of Karen Grammer younger sister
00:07:13
of actor Kelsey Grammer he was also involved in the arrest and conviction of Michael Corbett
00:07:20
this was Freddy Glenn's accomplice so together we have Glenn who was found guilty of murdering three
00:07:28
people in 1975 Glenn and Corbett together were responsible for a total of five deaths in and around Colorado
00:07:36
Springs back in 1975 so now I would like to introduce you to another man John Anderson now I'm
00:07:45
not talking about money in the bank and simal wind John Anderson no I'm talking about the John Anderson who I will deem
00:07:52
to be another Super cop Anderson was sworn in in January of 1995 as El Paso County's new sheriff and with him came
00:08:04
Lou SMI Anderson wanted two things one for L smitht to take over as Captain of detectives in El Paso County and two to
00:08:15
solve Heather Church's case which by this time 1995 was looking like it would never be
00:08:23
solved in the over three years of the case law enforcement really only developed per evidence and interviews a
00:08:31
few suspects some of the members of Heather's church at one point turned on one another Heather's Sunday school
00:08:39
teacher and a family friend were questioned extensively as were Heather's parents
00:08:45
everyone police in the FBI looked at either had an ironclad Alibi passed a polygraph test or both again this
00:08:55
included Heather's parents Diane and Mike definitely a lot of Suspicion towards the parents I think when you
00:09:01
have a case like this where you have no leads no clues that's kind of where the direction
00:09:10
that it just naturally takes on yeah now in 1995 L SMI took over as Captain of detectives and he took over the Heather
00:09:20
Church investigation Lou is pretty old school and he said that regardless of what
00:09:27
other people thought that they knew about the case Mike and Diane Church were not suspects he said he knew very
00:09:34
early on in his investigation that they together nor separate were involved in any way after meeting them both and
00:09:43
speaking with them separately Smith believed they were truly victims and far too good of people to do something so
00:09:51
terrible and it's not clear whether or not they took polygraph test and passed or not right the the
00:09:59
information I have that came from the sheriff's apartment states that they did okay now Smith also offered up after
00:10:07
speaking with the parents he offered up some of his expert opinions on the case to the parents of Heather he told them
00:10:16
he would catch the man that killed her he said he believed the perpetrator was an intelligent male and that his name
00:10:24
was already in the case File he also believed unlike the FBI that the motive behind why the per entered the church
00:10:32
home may not have been sexual Smith wanted to start his investigation at the very beginning in reviewing the case he
00:10:42
noted the recovery of fingerprints from the crime scene Captain Schmidt recognized that although the prince had
00:10:49
been forwarded to both the FBI and the CBI he was aware that there were in fact 92 separate automated fingerprint
00:10:58
identification systems or aphis for short so here we are once more captain at the Laton fingerprints left on the
00:11:07
master bedroom window screen from inside Heather Church's house yeah it seems like that's the biggest piece of
00:11:14
evidence we have forensics expert Thomas Carney was the man who educated Smith on
00:11:21
the trouble with the fingerprint systems in fact Carney he came from Miami he worked in law enfor m in Miami he was
00:11:30
the first person to compile a list of the aphis systems in the United States Canada and Mexico in Short North America
00:11:41
as said this number as of 1995 was 92 of these systems Carney put together 92 sets of black and white
00:11:52
photographs of the prints that they found on the window screen and this was to be mailed off to all 92 automated
00:12:01
finger printing identification systems in March of 1995 they got the call they were waiting
00:12:10
on for years so sound the trumpets captain we're we're still working on the trumpets near at the garage that was
00:12:20
good taking lessons that was good but I mean we we need some actual real trumpets uh they got a match in fact
00:12:29
they got two matches one in California and one in Louisiana so 92 of these different places they send off these
00:12:36
photographs two of them call back and say hey we got a match for you on those fingerprints that you sent us mhm the
00:12:43
fingerprints were matched to 42-year-old felon Robert Charles Brown who lived at
00:12:52
16660 eastonville Road and he was one of the church's nearest Neighbors he lived in a double wi about a half a
00:13:01
mile from the Church's home where he lived with his wife Brown worked at Tree Farm located on his property where he
00:13:09
lived Brown was arrested for burglary and vehicle theft in Louisiana where he served 10 months he was also charged
00:13:18
with something in California and I believe he may have served a little bit of time there but his record he has a
00:13:24
record but it's for nothing nearly as heinous as a uction or murder in 1987 his parole was transferred from
00:13:33
Louisiana to the state of Colorado the fingerprints found inside the crime scene at the church's house
00:13:41
were submitted and resubmitted over the years to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation but for whatever reason
00:13:49
when Brown when his parole was transferred his Prince were never entered into the CBI system so even
00:13:57
though they're checking them there's nothing there to match them to 4 days after they got the match they
00:14:05
arrested Brown outside of a store in town and brought him to the station for questioning the first thing that they
00:14:13
wanted to know of course did Brown know the churches he said No in fact he said he was a loner and he and his wife did
00:14:22
not socialize much but we know they're neighbors yeah but he lives a half a mile away right
00:14:29
so again it's when we talk about these different cases it's important to always kind of keep in mind the lay of the land
00:14:38
they own that big property he owned a decent sized property as well he was what I believe is reported to be their
00:14:45
nearest neighbor but that's half a mile away they really wanted to know had he ever been to the church's house and this
00:14:53
would be for any reason at all right no he said in fact the closest to to their home that he had ever been was when he
00:15:02
assisted a delivery truck that broke down on the side of the road near the church's long driveway out to the road
00:15:09
that is exactly what they wanted to hear got him got him Captain right got him yeah because if if this guy was known if
00:15:17
Robert Brown was known to do like handywork in the area and they go hey were you ever in their house oh yeah
00:15:25
well I was wasn't friends with them but I I did some painting for them oh where did you do the painting at oh master
00:15:33
bedroom the other bed you know what I mean right like then it put it gives you a gives a reason why the fingerprint
00:15:40
should be there or could be there yeah and really that that is so key to this case as you just stated he has given no
00:15:50
reason at all for his fingerprints to be there let alone be inside of the home well mind you that's cuz he's a dumbass
00:15:57
where where the prince were found were found technically inside the home yeah cuz the here's the thing is they ask you
00:16:05
about your neighbors you you know that this girl was abducted right so if you just start lying and saying well yeah
00:16:15
you know I went over there a couple times mhm and and I'm sure they asked the the family and and I'm sure they
00:16:22
didn't but I don't know that'd be covering your ass a little bit let's get into that a
00:16:28
bit because th this part of the story is quite interesting I think really when they arrested him at
00:16:35
this store that was not their intention they actually wanted to set up um they wanted to catch him meaning they wanted
00:16:45
to get him in a conversation asking him questions about the church homicide and and catch him that way but
00:16:54
catch him off guard meaning that that he doesn't know that they are looking specifically at him right so once they
00:17:01
get the match on the fingerprints their idea is okay let's send a handful of officers and detectives out into the
00:17:10
area and let's knock on everybody's door again and let's ask these sets of questions that way he thinks it's all
00:17:17
this is just all routine you know we're we're doing a r routine questioning of everybody in the area we're not
00:17:25
specifically looking at you right this this is where they were hoping that he would say I've never been to their house
00:17:33
and the problem was when they sent all the officers out into the area he was already under surveillance at that
00:17:40
point he left to go shopping and at some point they got nervous the law enforcement got nervous and said we have
00:17:48
to arrest this guy they were really worried that when they Place him in cuffs and say look you're being arrested
00:17:55
for the murder of Heather Dawn Church right that as you said he's a dumbass that he would wise up and go oh yeah I I
00:18:03
was there to do yard work or whatever yeah babysit him yeah because even even if the church has said no that's not the
00:18:10
truth now she said she said you yeah you have his word against theirs yeah now the reason why police believe that
00:18:19
he wasn't smart enough to come up with with something like that yeah no actually they think that that he was so
00:18:29
convinced that he never left his fingerprints there meaning they believed that he was wearing gloves during the
00:18:36
abduction and he may have taken them off very briefly to replace the the screen right and very likely he's being
00:18:43
questioned about this 3 years later he remembers that he wore gloves to the crime scene but doesn't remember taking
00:18:50
them off for a very brief time yeah that makes a lot of sense so he's so surprised by this whole deal of him
00:18:56
leaving fingerprints there that he tells them straight up he's he's without a lawyer at this point in the questioning
00:19:03
and he's telling them there's no way possible that those are my fingerprints he said I don't doubt that you found
00:19:10
fingerprints there I doubt that they're mine and they say well we have your fingerprints back from when you were
00:19:16
arrested in Louisiana and we we checked them they got a match in Louisiana we got a match with your old fingerprints
00:19:22
in California he goes well that's well and good but people make mistakes my fingerprints could have been mixed up
00:19:29
with somebody else's you know what what you're testing are pictures he's saying take my fingerprints right now and test
00:19:36
them again because I'm telling you my fingerprints were not there that's how adamant he was and they did so and they
00:19:42
checked it again right so now you have that in your back pocket as the detectives are questioning uh Robert
00:19:48
Charles Brown yeah and during all of this remember he's he's asking for everything to be tested again take new
00:19:56
fingerprints they're doing all this stuff test it again and while they're doing this they talk him into a
00:20:04
polygraph test yeah and later he's told he failed the test and he's told again doesn't matter how many times we
00:20:12
fingerprint you and run the test they are still matching the set that we found on the window screen at the Church's
00:20:18
home right the other thing too Captain is during these interviews while they're being conducted the police were at
00:20:25
Brown's home they're search ing the place they already had a search warrant before they arrested it there they found
00:20:32
girls clothing and girls jewelry stuffed into a pillowcase he has no children this is a bit unexplained what
00:20:43
this stuff was or where it came from what is explained is that none of it belonged to
00:20:48
Heather they also probably it's probably trophies of some kind yeah so they found stolen items
00:20:57
from another another home that was another residence that was kind of nearby MH so these could have just been
00:21:05
things that they don't have to be from another murder victim they could be things that he stole from somebody's
00:21:10
home they found this is just straight up bizarre I've never heard of this before but I do know
00:21:17
people steal these types of things I've just never found one in any of the cases
00:21:21
we've covered they found a stolen Bobcat earth mover machine worth $188,000 now Captain you and I both know
00:21:29
that is not a small machine mhm that's a large thing to have stolen from someone
00:21:39
apparently I don't know why he stole it he must have used it for some kind of work keep in mind he had that tree farm
00:21:45
he had a big plot of land there's some suspicions as to what he could have used it for but his his
00:21:52
wife was aware that he stole this large machine she said he used it the only thing that she knew that he
00:22:00
used it for was he dug a big hole with it drove the machine into the hole and then attempted to cover it
00:22:08
up attempted to bury it or just cover it up bury the machine uh as said he they found stolen
00:22:16
items from another house or other residences in the area this is you know some of the more alarming stuff they
00:22:24
found newspaper clippings a lot of them regarding Heather Church's case MH he was in fact arrested that day and
00:22:31
charged with murder he would be offered eventually actually pretty quickly after
00:22:37
the arrest he was offered a deal an offer to his public defender this would be so he could avoid
00:22:46
the death penalty and this likely may have been the best case scenario for the investigators seeing that at this point
00:22:56
when they make this offer all they have as far as evidence goes is his fingerprints right later on they did get
00:23:05
Brown's wife to admit that he was not home the night Heather vanished so we have a fingerprint and we have no solid
00:23:13
Alibi correct now he Brown maintained his innocence when he spoke with the police but he did ultimately end up
00:23:23
pleading guilty to murder this so he could avoid the death penalty and trade he got life in
00:23:30
prison this move was quite interesting the prosecutor they didn't really think that
00:23:41
that brown or his attorney would take the bait take the plea deal right because again such little evidence they
00:23:49
really made a strong push and what they did was they were vetting this guy they were calling where they knew he was from
00:23:57
this guy had moved around a lot they called his hometown where he lived for a long period of time and realized that
00:24:05
former neighbors of his one of them had gone missing and one of them was murdered oh great both of those cases
00:24:14
unsolved in fact the missing woman on top of on top of Heather Church's case correct yeah and so what their threat
00:24:23
was we'll call it a threat their threat to the the defense attorney was he he should probably hurry up and plead
00:24:31
guilty to this before we find another body right so ultimately that's what took place the prosecutor did check with
00:24:40
Heather's parents first to make sure that they were okay with them making an offer Heather's mother Diane said if he
00:24:49
is willing to plead guilty she is willing to let him sit in prison for the rest of his
00:24:56
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freedom all right welcome back cheers everybody cheers crispy Colonel oo cheers to you through the
00:27:16
glass the crispiest they've separated us I feel like I'm in solitary confinement
00:27:21
well that's where you belong all I I can't see you all I do is hear voices mhm so while Robert Brown never conf
00:27:27
confessed to the detectives and never confessed in court it's believed that he confessed to Susan Lawrence this was his
00:27:35
placement counselor and what he told her she passed along to authorities so let's
00:27:42
go through this what what she told the authorities he said to her she said that he Brown enjoyed roaming his
00:27:52
neighborhood at night looking for houses to burglarize sometimes he would take things sometimes he wouldn't when he
00:28:01
went to the church's residence there were two lights on inside the house and no cars in the
00:28:08
driveway and he did not think that anyone was home he was surprised by Heather Church inside the house and
00:28:16
killing her he says was unintentional Brown said that he did Kill Heather inside the home he placed
00:28:25
one hand over her mouth and one hand on her neck he demonstrated this to Miss Lawrence when he's telling her this
00:28:34
story and said he recalled doing this for only a couple of seconds he thought but now believes it must have been for a
00:28:43
longer period of time he assumed that he had strangled her because she was dead when it was
00:28:52
over now Mrs Lawrence asked Brown if it was possible that that he had broke her neck and to which he replied that that
00:29:02
was a possibility yeah cuz I mean Brown's a pretty big guy he's like 63 roughly yeah yeah Robert Brown said
00:29:11
he placed Heather Church's body in the back of his pickup truck and drove to the mountains where he disposed of the
00:29:17
body he denied having any sexual contact with Heather Church all right so bam boom
00:29:25
bang case closed yep get my coat time to tip my hat and ride nope you're you're locked up you're
00:29:35
right captain that is not it because there's much more to the story in 1996 Robert Charles Brown who is supposed to
00:29:43
be rotting away in his cell in Colorado State Corrections he receives a letter this is
00:29:51
an anonymous letter the letter says you got screwed and here's why there was something wrong with Colorado
00:30:00
state law and from July 9th to September 20th of 1999 [ __ ] let's keep going I was good
00:30:10
up to September 20th of 1991 Colorado was without a death penalty this is truly bizarre we've
00:30:20
never come across anything like this in any of our cases mhm so what that means is when the night when she was abducted
00:30:31
when Heather was removed from the home technically the state of Colorado for that very brief time period less than 90
00:30:40
days didn't have the death penalty does not have the death penalty so the offer then of hey plead guilty and we take the
00:30:48
death penalty off the table it was never on the table because it didn't exist during the the time frame in which she
00:30:55
disappeared [ __ ] offer yeah so this gets pointed out to him and now we have the appeals process but who
00:31:02
whoever's pointing it out to this scumbag yeah is also a scumbag Let It Be man you got screwed well good right
00:31:11
unless it was one of those things where um the guy was trying to rub it in his face you know like you're so stupid you
00:31:18
didn't know this oh you know what I mean but you know what you got screwed because the case took so many years to
00:31:25
apprehend somebody right I don't think that the prosecutors did anything malicious here I don't think
00:31:32
they were aware either no like you said it was a small window like 90-day window
00:31:36
yeah it's just one of these weird inconsistencies one of these weird little glitches that was that was going on
00:31:43
they're unaware of it so any anyway now we have the appeals process he's got a pretty damn good appeal when you think
00:31:49
about it hey I played guilty to something that only because the death penalty was being thrown in my face
00:31:58
in the face in the face well the current prosecutor the the one that now has to face these
00:32:07
appeals comes up with a great plan he says to the court system look she was abducted on the 17th this whole
00:32:18
thing with with the no death penalty expired on the 20th that's just a couple days later mhm he's also saying it took
00:32:26
us all this time who solved the case she was found over 20 mi away from her home
00:32:32
where she was abducted we the prosecutor's office believed that the crime was sexual in
00:32:38
nature that the motive was sexual nature and based off of all of that evidence and theory and thought it is our
00:32:47
argument that we cannot say for certain that her murder occurred on the 17th that it's very likely he may have kept
00:32:55
her for a couple of days and the murder occurred on the 20th or even later to this the appeals Courts at
00:33:03
least two of them that I could find they agreed with that they said look you can't prove the date of when she was
00:33:11
killed and if you do you know he's in all kinds of trouble and all kinds of mess here because now if you go back to
00:33:19
um he proves what day she was killed then he proves that he killed her and he boom he still ends up with life in
00:33:25
prison right so I I think that's just truly fascinating and the prosecutor later came out
00:33:32
said look I thought my argument was a good one but a weak one it was intelligent argument but it was a very
00:33:38
weak one he thought that they would lose turns out that they win this thing got all the way up to I believe the Colorado
00:33:47
Supreme Court state supreme court to which I think they tossed it out and said we don't even want to look at this
00:33:53
thing truly when you you have a child killer nobody wants this guy to get out on some
00:34:02
kind of tech technicality well yeah and on top of that you think he's possibly linked to other crimes that's
00:34:10
correct and that's still not the end of our story Captain because on March 30th 2000 Robert Brown sent an unsolicited
00:34:19
letter to the Fourth Judicial District Attorney's Office in Colorado Springs the letter was addressed to whom
00:34:27
it may concern inside this letter and I don't have the full letter itself I don't know
00:34:33
if the full letter has ever been released to the public but there is within this letter a statement from
00:34:41
Brown that says this is very cryptic seven sacred virgins entombed side by side those less worthy are
00:34:51
scattered wide the letter taunted investigators claiming the the score is you1 the other team
00:35:02
48 the obvious reference here being that he was arrested tried and convicted of the murder of Heather Dawn church right
00:35:13
they scored one the other team must be him Robert Brown he's got a score of 48 so
00:35:20
obviously he's implying that he's involved in other crimes possibly other murders
00:35:27
another statement included in this letter says if you were to drive to the end zone in a white Trans Am the score
00:35:35
could be 9 to 48 that would complete your homec court sphere ah let go a real dumbass Brown closed the letter by
00:35:45
demanding that he not be contacted now there was a second letter that was sent so he sent a letter and then at the
00:35:55
end he said don't contact me and here's another letter they sent another letter yeah the second letter for my
00:36:02
understanding I believe even less of that letter has been uh reported over the years maybe maybe
00:36:10
even some of the statements I just read could have been from the second letter itself it's all very cryptic his
00:36:16
writings and what has been released is it's not clear if it's if some of the letters are just
00:36:22
short and they were released in their entirety and then other letters were longer and only bits and pieces were
00:36:28
actually released but what we do know with the second letter there that one included a map and
00:36:37
we would later learn that the map was he took a piece of paper put it over over a
00:36:41
map like in an atlas and made the outlines of several different states and so he outlined the state of
00:36:51
Washington California Colorado New Mexico Oklahoma Texas Arkansas Mississippi and
00:37:01
Louisiana and inside each one of those states that he outlined he put a number this number totaling up to 48 so
00:37:11
almost indicating that with inside this state for instance state of Washington he wrote the number
00:37:18
one I've killed one person in the state of Colorado he put the number nine in Louisiana the number being the highest
00:37:27
of all the numbers was 17 mhm this Captain I believe probably would have went nowhere because he's writing to the
00:37:37
District Attorney's Office in Colorado Springs they don't seem to have any interest in corresponding with inmate
00:37:46
Robert Brown turns out that about two years later A Man Named Charlie Hess is going
00:37:55
to send a letter to Robert Brown he doesn't know that Robert Brown has in fact sent these letters already to the
00:38:02
district attorney's office Charlie Hess is a former CIA agent and he was working
00:38:09
with a guy and I say working they were kind of doing this as as a hobby but Charlie hes along with some other
00:38:16
individuals were working with Lou SMI all these guys were pretty much retired by this time what they would do is they
00:38:24
would get together about once a week they would hang out they would eat pastries drink coffee smoke cigarettes
00:38:30
and they would talk about old cases mhm and really what they were focusing on was they were wanting to take on some
00:38:39
cold cases all of these individuals were involved in law enforcement or the CIA at some time this would be a good group
00:38:46
of people to volunteer to take on a cold case now during some of their discussions it comes up that one of the
00:38:57
individuals wants to know hey Lou or anybody here in our group has anybody worked in putting away a
00:39:07
murderer that they believe was truly a very dangerous person that was was a serial killer was one of these uh people
00:39:15
that had numbers you know multiple murders that they had committed L Smith says to his group I always felt Robert
00:39:26
Charles Brown was a serial killer and so much so that when we were working to put
00:39:30
him away we were aware that way back in Louisiana a neighbor of his one went missing and another neighbor was found
00:39:39
dead was found murdered so there's already a bit of a connection I I've seen a lot of people
00:39:46
cover this portion of the story and a lot of people have done a good job in doing so but what is usually
00:39:56
Lo lost in this Heather Church's case is usually kind of a a by the way or a way
00:40:02
to Kickstart the whole story of Robert Brown in his Communications with these Cold Case volunteer investigators right
00:40:11
and often it's reported that Lou Smith just had some kind of six sense that he was uh it was a gut feeling that he had
00:40:19
been working the these types of cases so long that he just had a sick sense that
00:40:23
Robert Brown was a serial killer he had he had a sense that Robert Brown was a serial killer because they were aware of
00:40:31
a missing former neighbor of his and a murdered former neighbor of his doesn't take much to you know you don't have to
00:40:39
have a a six sense to come up with that Heather Dawn church was a neighbor of his as well so you see a similar type of
00:40:48
Mo it's really a bit of a shame that when we talk about these cases from Louisiana I find it strange that within
00:40:58
just a handful of months these two cases take place we have a murder somebody goes missing both of these
00:41:05
individuals were neighbors of his but they were neighbors within the same apartment complex as him and further
00:41:14
Robert Brown worked as the maintenance man for this apartment complex his brother I believe was the owner or the
00:41:22
landlord of these uh Apartments it's really strange to me that they weren't able to make any type
00:41:29
of connection I think with the missing woman with her case that the husband was Under Suspicion and that would make an
00:41:38
obvious reason why you wouldn't connect them but with with the missing woman she apparently had the doors had
00:41:49
the locks on her doors changed the day before by the maintenance man of the apartment complex who in fact was Robert
00:41:57
Brown it seems like there would have been a connection to some of these individuals yeah and even though Robert
00:42:04
Brown claimed that he didn't want to be contacted there would be a bunch of corresponding emails for
00:42:10
years yeah well letters right and so it it's almost like Charlie H kind of befriended Robert Charles Brown and got
00:42:21
him to open up we have a man who says he doesn't want to talk it is in Charlie's
00:42:27
Arsenal though that he is aware that look this is the guy that opened up the dialogue he started the dialogue on some
00:42:35
psychological level he does want to talk and so I'm going to work that angle and
00:42:40
see what I can get from him it's interesting that you have a guy a serial killer locked up and I will I will say
00:42:47
serial killer because I believe him to be just that but we have someone like we've seen so many times before now he's
00:42:55
coming out playing this game of I know more than you know and here's all the other bad things that I've done but oh
00:43:02
I'm not going to tell you all the bad things that I've done I'm going to hint and nudge and wink you through it and
00:43:09
you got to figure it out on your own it's all really truly I mean it's a lot of it I feel is
00:43:19
[ __ ] and I don't really want to waste anybody's time here by going through all of the correspondence cuz as
00:43:24
you said this goes on for quite some time and really all Charles Hess wants to do is he wants to sit down and speak
00:43:36
with Robert Brown face to face that's what Charlie Hess did in the CIA back in the day of Vietnam War he was somebody
00:43:45
that interviewed people during wartime he gave lie detector tests during wartime he is extremely good at
00:43:53
communicating with people getting people to open up getting people to tell the story tell the truth and figuring out
00:44:00
what are the truths and what are the lies with inside their story he eventually through befriending
00:44:07
or at least letting Robert Charles Brown believe that the two are friends got brown to allow him to speak with him
00:44:15
face to face and this all it did was open up correspondant because Brown was giving little hints and winks and nudges
00:44:25
saying I've killed roughly like you said Captain I've killed 48 people 47 of them
00:44:31
you don't know about and some of their talks and correspondence he had the number as high as
00:44:38
51 but he was really giving them nothing to go off of he's like look I um they keep telling them you got to tell us
00:44:45
more if you want us to clear any of these cases we can't do anything with this and if you don't give us more
00:44:50
information we don't think you're serious we think that either you're making this [ __ ] up or you've lost it
00:44:58
and you believe it to be true and it's not true at all mhm eventually they get him to talk and
00:45:06
give more details on some of these cases where he will go you know maybe give a nickname of an individual maybe give a
00:45:13
spot where he uh dumped the body so on and so forth and this leads them to throughout months and years of
00:45:23
working on this this leads them to starting to complete some of the story now mind you all of the states that he
00:45:30
listed that he drew on that map he did live in those States and they could find evidence that he in fact lived in those
00:45:37
States at one point and the three states that he listed as having the highest number of kills interestingly enough are
00:45:45
the three states where he spent the most time so there was some stuff there was some meat on the bone in the beginning
00:45:51
for these investigators to believe that there could be some truth to Robert Brown's story now we know with these
00:46:01
Psychopaths and these narcissists none of this would come without him getting something in return for offering up this
00:46:10
information he was unhappy with the way that he was being treated he did not like where he was being housed and he
00:46:16
also didn't feel that he was receiving proper medical treatment basically he wanted to transfer and again Charlie H
00:46:25
pushed him and said we can't help you unless you help us eventually through a lot of back and forth and through a lot
00:46:33
of working and a lot of hard work what we end up getting is we get another solved case because in July of
00:46:42
2006 Brown pled guilty to the murder of Rosio sper this he was sentenced to life
00:46:51
without the possibility of parole for 40 years now unfortunately this did not come without brown getting something in
00:47:00
return Brown was then transferred to the state of Minnesota to serve out his time
00:47:07
there what's very weird here Captain is I found an interview with Heather Church's father Mike and I
00:47:17
believe it was from 2015 or 16 where he had a complaint and a very valid complaint he saying because of
00:47:26
Brown's manipulation of the system because he's working these deals to get moved and and plead guilty to an
00:47:35
unsolved case that he did not know where the killer of his daughter was being housed
00:47:44
and he felt that that was unfair and I agree 100% because at some point Brown was
00:47:51
moved and it wasn't public knowledge to know where he was located I found a letter that is believed I have
00:48:00
plenty of reason to believe that it was written by Robert Brown where he states that at that time he was housed in
00:48:09
Florida in the State of Florida and there he is complaining that they riged on the plea agreement that he
00:48:18
was supposed to be in Minnesota and after being in Minnesota for 4 years they transferred him to Florida where he
00:48:25
does not want to be and I hope he stays where he does not want to be welcome to Florida the thing captain that we have
00:48:36
here and I do want to say I am very um the thing that I want to say here Captain is that I think that is great
00:48:45
the work that Charlie H Lou Smith and all of their little Cold Case volunteer work that they did is fantastic yeah I
00:48:53
don't want to say it's all [ __ ] and it's all or not because they did get a conviction in the Rosio SP case and that
00:49:00
was so important not just to get another case off the books not just to get some
00:49:04
answers but for so many years her husband was thought to be the one that was guilty of her disappearance and we
00:49:12
now know that that's not true MH and that guy was a victim himself not just from being the husband of a of murder
00:49:21
victim but he was a victim of being thought of as being guilty of her disappearance and
00:49:28
her murder for so many years so I'm very glad and very happy that they got that one off the books I do think that a lot
00:49:37
of Brown's communication and a lot of what he hints at we talk about a number of 48 possible victims I think that
00:49:45
that's total bogus bogus I think it's a bogus number that he came up with we're talking about he's saying this in the
00:49:53
early 2000s and at the time I believe a number of 48 would put him at the highest number for
00:50:01
a serial killer that's who he wants to be he's never been anybody important he wants to be somebody important and he
00:50:09
does not mind the attention why because he is so guilty of Heather Don Church's murder and now he's locked up in a place
00:50:17
he does not want to be for life and he has nothing to do he is to put it quite frankly he is bored everything that he
00:50:26
did when he was on the outside a lot of it being illegal a lot of of it being perverted deviate Behavior he cannot do
00:50:34
now and so he's come up with some kind of game to pass the time he's come up with a number that makes him important
00:50:41
when he is not I also think that part of this game is he feels screwed by the prosecutor by
00:50:52
the District Attorney's Office of Colorado that because he as you said was dumb enough to one not give a good
00:51:01
reason why he would have been at the church's house MH two didn't lawyer up three agreed to a polygraph test in
00:51:09
which he failed and then four pleas guilty so he can avoid the death penalty yet there
00:51:16
was no death penalty yeah so welcome to Florida dumbass I think he feels tricked
00:51:21
because he was he was an idiot he was stupid he was a [ __ ] he feels tricked and now his way of
00:51:30
retaliating is to send them on this wild goose chase keep in mind who did he direct his letter to he didn't send it
00:51:38
to the media he didn't send it to the El Paso County Sheriff's Office he sent it
00:51:43
to the district attorney's office the same district attorney's office that was able to put him in prison for life for
00:51:51
the death for the murder of Heather Dawn Church now I do believe with inside this
00:51:58
48 this magical number of 48 Captain I do believe that there are some other victims in there of note of of of note
00:52:08
of ones that he actually provided some detailed information this would be the uh murder
00:52:15
of Katherine Hayes from Louisiana Wanda Hudson and F self also of Louisiana Melody bush
00:52:26
and Nidia Mendoza both from Texas and then Lisa low who was killed in Arkansas so while I do feel that a lot of his
00:52:37
stuff is probably [ __ ] I would love to see some further movement on some of these other cases where there was some
00:52:45
detailed information provided by Robert Brown unfortunately L Smith has passed away he passed away he had the cancer
00:52:55
and by the time the cancer was founded it spread to his entire body yeah but I agree a lot of good work here and uh
00:53:02
Robert Charles Brown deserves any bad thing that's coming his way the other thing about his if you want to try to
00:53:12
call them confessions regarding these murders even the ones where he offers detailed information what you will see
00:53:22
is him minimizing his involvement him minimizing his role in the murder of these individuals I personally believe
00:53:32
that most of his murders if not all of them were sexual in nature they they seem to be that that was the motive the
00:53:41
driving force for his actions I don't know about when he set out to enter the home to Heather Dawn
00:53:50
Church's house but what I will say here regarding his bullsh [ __ ] confession that he offered up to his placement
00:53:58
counselor what do you see there straight up minimizes his involvement in the whole situation it makes it it's all so
00:54:07
confusing to him he killed her he didn't even really know why he killed her he didn't he didn't intend to kill her and
00:54:14
I think that is absolute BS I think that there's a lot of evidence that will show
00:54:20
that there was no reason for him to remove her from that house his confession somewhat makes it sound
00:54:27
like she surprised him and he reacted and before he could realize what was going on she was dead there's evidence
00:54:36
to suggest that she may have been sleeping when he came upon her that night right and if he was afraid or got
00:54:44
scared all of a sudden because he entered a home that he thought was empty and he reacted and that was the
00:54:50
result you just can't believe that because if she was sleeping he had the opportunity to be afraid and then leave
00:54:57
the home after he was in the home and when he left there the only thing that was missing from that home was that
00:55:05
little [Music] girl a lot of really good sources for this case here Captain one of the better
00:55:20
ones is the newspaper The Gazette they covered this case pretty extensive Ely over the years and did a very good job
00:55:27
one of the best sources is this week's recommended reading it's a book titled the devil's right-hand man the true
00:55:36
story of serial killer Robert Charles Brown you can write that title down now so you can pick that up and find out
00:55:43
more if you're busy just go to our website later go to our recommended page go to truecrime garage.com we will have
00:55:51
that title there for you so you can make that selection and add that to your library we want to thank everybody for
00:55:58
listening we want to thank everybody for the wonderful festar reviews we want to
00:56:04
thank you all for telling your friends about True Crime garage until next time be good be kind and don't
00:56:11
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