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GameChanger [Music] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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00:01:49
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support and keeping the lights on onward and upward cheers mates all right everybody gather around grab a chair
00:03:23
grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music]
00:03:47
[Applause] yeah and there there's some there's some interaction and and maybe I do need to
00:03:58
go back and Rel listen to to C because there's there's the weird interaction when they're uh when they're in court
00:04:05
together where Adnan says something to Jay he calls him pathetic yeah I thought that was to me that was a little telling
00:04:12
right when I'm sitting there in in my my uh armchair sleuth action right in the armchair right and I'm I'm trying to
00:04:20
sleuth this thing out I've already come to the conclusion based off every everything I reviewed to
00:04:26
that point that that it's one of three scenarios Adnan Jay or Adnan and J and that that little interaction to
00:04:36
me I thought was rather telling I thought it tipped the scales a little bit for me to to believe that it
00:04:45
was Adnan um and and and you know look Jay is not he's certainly not trustworthy uh so you always have that
00:04:54
in the back of your mind but and in some weird way ad on doing it is Jay's Alibi
00:05:04
but that that little that little exchange right there one I thought was a little telling it tipped the scales
00:05:11
toward Adon for me and then there was something which I can't recall at the moment to do with gloves that you know
00:05:17
that they some statement given about gloves that I I felt that it was a statement that Jay gave and that
00:05:27
that it had stuck and and it carried so much weight with me that that I do need to I believe that I need to go back and
00:05:33
review that for for me the timeline one spot that I thought was incredibly interesting was this Anonymous phone
00:05:41
call that comes in shortly after hymon Lee's body is discovered in Lincoln Park and so her body's discovered on February
00:05:52
9th and of course there's there's some period of time that goes by before before the body is identified
00:06:00
but on February 12th the Baltimore City Police Homicide division received a an anonymous phone call suggesting that the
00:06:07
investigators should focus on adnot Now One do I have that right and two could you guys expand on that a little bit for
00:06:16
the listeners yeah I'm give me a moment I'm actually trying to pull up the actual timeline to make sure that's
00:06:22
right but so we talked about a little bit earlier that you know they focused on ad on from the beginning and this was
00:06:31
all about railroading him and this sort of idea about this case and that's what you hear from some people and it seems
00:06:40
like it's actually pretty clear that they didn't really focus on Adon until this phone call you're talking about and
00:06:48
there was this and I and I got to tell you it is one of those it is one of those you got to be careful with rabbit
00:06:56
holes in this case because if you let yourself get sucked down into rabbit holes you'll be
00:07:03
lost forever and this is one of those that I would love to know who called right it's February 12th is when that
00:07:10
call comes in the same day by the way that Baltimore has 15 police officers who spend the entire day canvasing
00:07:17
Baltimore looking for that car you know they're looking for that car trying to find what they think is going to be a
00:07:24
vehicle that's going to have a lot of evidence in it so this phone call comes in to them on Fe 12th it's a few days
00:07:31
after Hay's body has been found and yeah it's an anonymous caller the officer describes them as an Asian male in his
00:07:40
notes when they testify about at trial he actually says he he he meant Indian which is interesting because I think
00:07:47
when you most people when they hear Asian they're thinking more sort of Japanese Chinese something along those
00:07:52
lines Indian is closer to Pakistani which is adon's racial background and it makes you wonder is this someone who
00:08:02
knows Adon is it someone from the mosque is it someone that he might have been friends with a lot of people have spent
00:08:08
a lot of time trying to figure out exactly who that is one thing they absolutely knew was this Yasser Ali guy
00:08:16
they say you need to talk to him because he's going to be able to tell you and the police actually I think they meet
00:08:21
him at a at a Pizza Hut or something to talk through with it and yaser's like yeah you know was we talked about that
00:08:30
he said if he ever you know killed a girlfriend he would drive her car into a lake or something like that which is
00:08:36
such a strange the whole the whole interaction is strange the the fact of the anonymous call the fact the
00:08:41
anonymous caller then calls back so he calls says that you know Adon and hay had had sex in linol park in the past
00:08:49
which I kind of doubt because leol Park I don't think is the kind of place to you but maybe it is I don't know I don't
00:08:55
want to I don't want to speak for what goes on in leak Park um and he says the thing about driving the car into the
00:09:01
lake and then he calls back and says you should talk to yaser Ali and when they talk to yaser yoser is like kind of had
00:09:06
a conversation like that but not exactly so whoever it was kind of knew enough to
00:09:11
be dangerous but maybe didn't know a lot and like I said it's a rabbit hole you can go down but I don't think you're
00:09:16
going to find any answers to it but new enough to send police in the right direction of talking to somebody that
00:09:22
that does say yes we had some kind of bizarre conversation at one point in our friendship
00:09:29
and it sounds like it's it's probably well before the fact that that she's eventually killed but that he says
00:09:37
something to the effect if I ever killed someone or if I ever killed a girlfriend
00:09:41
I would dispose of her of the vehicle in this manner and what's interesting about
00:09:46
it is it really is that is what sets them off an Adon so that happens you know they get this weird phone call that
00:09:53
I that's on the 12th on the 15th they're talking to this guy at the Pizza Hut right the next day they pull ADN on cell
00:10:01
phone records and it's when they pull his cell phone records and they start looking at the phone calls and they see
00:10:07
a call that comes up over and over again and it's Jen pusit ter and then they go
00:10:11
talk to Jen and Jen says I don't know anything I don't know anything and they're like they leave and in their
00:10:15
notes if you read the notes they're like spoke to Jen puser she doesn't have anything to say and then the next day
00:10:21
Jen shows up with her lawyer and her mother and tells them the story that is going to become the story that we hear
00:10:26
over and over and over again yeah yeah I've never had a conversation with a friend about killing a
00:10:33
girlfriend uh I have had several conversations about killing a co-host no com the
00:10:44
bizar you know you're being recorded the really bizarre part of that too that like that makes you
00:10:50
believe that that conversation took place one yeah we have Yasser saying that yes that conversation happened but
00:10:57
let's set that aside for a second it's it's the added detail of not just like oh we're having this bizarre
00:11:03
conversation of killing somebody what if but oh by the way this is how I would dispose of their vehicle you know it's
00:11:11
that added detail that that makes it just ring true and of of of course you got to
00:11:19
investigate this guy as soon as you learn this detail I mean it would be incredible mistake not and it's very
00:11:26
possible that you know he was just talking a big game it's very possible what I think is really important here is
00:11:32
that they didn't know the police didn't know Adon cell phone number or to pull his cell phone records before this
00:11:38
interaction and so we're talking about what mid-February at this point it's you know this Cuts against the narrative
00:11:45
that the police you know knew she was missing and immediately zeroed in on Adnan as the main suspect by all
00:11:52
accounts they weren't looking at him really with any seriousness up until this point otherwise they would have
00:11:57
probably found some way to AA his records much earlier on well and there's a lot of indicators too to suggest that
00:12:04
there was not a whole lot of an investigating going on until her body's found like I think that's right it is a
00:12:11
concern they're aware that she is air quotes missing she may have gone to California or whatever but there does
00:12:17
not appear from where I'm sitting to to to a lot of evidence that suggests that there
00:12:23
was any kind of Hardcore investigation going on to find her and then as you guys said earlier it's
00:12:31
the it's it's the the discovery of her body of her remains that now 180 degrees flips this
00:12:44
investigation and now the importance of finding her vehicle and I think Baltimore treated this like they treat a
00:12:49
lot of stuff you know they've got way too many murders to investigate and way too many probably actual deductions to
00:12:56
investigate to worry about some 18-year-old girl who decided to go off you know to California or something I
00:13:02
think they they really and I don't want to be you know we talk about this so much when police
00:13:08
do this when when the the initial call comes in and they don't take it seriously and then two weeks later three
00:13:14
weeks later four weeks later you have a murder on your hands and it's really easy to be very critical the police and
00:13:19
say what in the world were you guys doing why didn't you look into this from the very beginning but it seems like
00:13:24
that's the way the Baltimore Police kind of approached it and I think you're right until she
00:13:29
until they found her body that's when it really starts to ramp up and you see that and you see that with all the
00:13:33
searches for the cars sending out the police the BOS requesting a helicopter you know all these efforts to find that
00:13:40
car because I think they realized if we find the car we might be able to figure this out the car is going to be the key
00:13:47
and when eventually they would find it when Jay LED them to it well and they're they're hoping to
00:13:53
find clear evidence of who put that car there they they don't believe that they victim was abducted there they don't
00:14:01
believe that their victim um was abducted elsewhere you know they believe that that car is is disposed of after
00:14:09
the body disposal and they're hoping that what they can find in that vehicle will lead
00:14:16
them to the killer to the same person that put the body in the park and when when they don't get that and
00:14:24
then there's also the complication of you're going to find evidence in side of that vehicle that will suggest that Adon
00:14:30
Sayed was in that vehicle but of course we would have expected to find we should
00:14:34
expect to find evidence that he's been in that vehicle at some point um because it's because he was um and on days when
00:14:42
she wasn't killed um so yeah there exactly that but but what I see too one thing that I that I always thought um
00:14:50
and one thing I try to point out and I don't know that it's always taken the way that it's supposed
00:14:56
to or even digested proper L is that there is a there is a strong psychology in trying to conceal a
00:15:09
body and this is an investigation that really highlights that that psychology of of
00:15:19
typically the more effort that is taken to conceal a body usually means the closer the per the closer connection
00:15:26
between Victor victim and perpetrator and here in and the reason why is because until there is a body found in
00:15:35
most cases there is not that level of investigation and here this clearly points all of that out that someone took
00:15:45
the efforts to to partially bury or or conceal this body to the best of their ability on that day at that night and it
00:15:55
took four weeks to find her and then what happens immediately once she's found the now we have an actual
00:16:02
investigation now we have a hardcore investigation so the the the closer the per is to the victim the more vested
00:16:10
invested they are in the idea of if they never find this person I probably don't
00:16:16
have anything to worry about yeah that's exactly right we see that unfortunately
00:16:20
if the victim has a relationship with uh the perpetrator there is some attempt to
00:16:25
cover the body because you know if this is a random attack some random passer by
00:16:29
let's say her car broke down and you know some Nero well happens upon her and they decide to kill her why not why
00:16:36
stick around and risk getting caught with a dead body it's going to take time to drag her body into the woods even
00:16:42
though it's not very far into the woods to you know stay there dig a hole to put
00:16:47
her body in there probably leaving evidence of you behind um if if you didn't know this person because a random
00:16:54
attacker is really difficult to find but if you're going to take the risk of covering someone up it's likely that you
00:17:01
know there could be ties to you especially if you're an ex-boyfriend or have any sort of relationship with her
00:17:07
there are going to be people who are populated on the suspect list by mere by mere relation to her right usually
00:17:13
family members or anyone close to the per to close to the victim will be on an initial suspect list who has to be
00:17:20
cleared by the police and so it makes sense psychology wise to cover up that body and also there's this strange Psy
00:17:28
ology even if you are the person who is the perpetrator that it's difficult to look at someone you know that you've had
00:17:34
a relationship with in this in this instance a very close relationship a love relationship in fact um of seeing
00:17:42
that person even if you have very you know hatred feelings toward them to leave them exposed and open to the
00:17:48
elements when they are dead and so that's a that's a great point to raise here that if it were a random attacker
00:17:56
it it is it's it it would not fit the typical stereotype of the attacker taking their chances and just running as
00:18:03
opposed to sticking around and maybe getting caught with the body or caught with more evidence what was some of the
00:18:08
evidence that was found at the body recovery site you know we basically skipped over it because there's so
00:18:14
little there's either so little or so much depending on how you look at it so they found you know they found things
00:18:21
like like bullet casings they found which you know sometimes the number of times I've been talking to an officer
00:18:29
about a shooting and they're like yeah the first thing we have to do is sort out the bullet casings from this
00:18:34
shooting from the bullet casings that were left over from the last shooting and figure out which ones go with this
00:18:39
one and which ones go with some other shooting that we didn't investigate so there are things like that there were
00:18:44
things like discarded whiskey bottles I mean one advantage to taking someone to a place like leakin Park is the the
00:18:54
potential evidence of of who it was isn't necess necessarily going to stand out from the evidence that's just there
00:19:02
because it's the kind of place that all kinds of people hang out and do various things and I think you see that when you
00:19:06
go through sort of the evidence list not a lot of it ended up being all that significant you also have to remember
00:19:13
that she was she was there for about a month so when you when you read Jay's statement he talks about for instance
00:19:20
Adon throwing up that he's he's throwing up you know around sort of the barrel of
00:19:27
the body and we had some people asked well did they you know did they find that did they test that it's like it was
00:19:32
a month later you know there there's it's not going to be left so the thing about the case that I think trips a lot
00:19:38
of people up there's not a lot of physical evidence as you pointed out the fingerprints they're interesting there's
00:19:45
some interesting fingerprints in this case but it's easy to say Adon was in her car a lot I'll give you a couple
00:19:52
examples there is a mapbook the mapbook according to people who knew he stayed in her driver's side pocket that's not
00:20:01
where the police found it they found it in the back seat they found it open it had edon's fingerprints on it and there
00:20:07
was a page torn out of it which was a page included the map of Lincoln Park sitting on that mapbook was a rose
00:20:14
wrapped in floral paper on that floral paper were adon's fingerprints so those are some
00:20:20
fingerprints that are interesting but and and they were they were striking to me and it really stood out to me and it
00:20:27
it painted a picture for me of what I think happened on that day but it's also not unusual that his
00:20:33
fingerprints would be in the car since he had been in the car many times before well I'm trying to behave myself as as
00:20:39
much as I can here in the garage today uh Nick should give me an actual cookie for that
00:20:45
but okay so there's all this evidence that you say points to adnan's guilt then why would the prosecution the
00:20:53
prosecution the state not the defense team the prose Cuts why would they release this killer quote unquote why
00:21:04
would they release this killer and give him back his freedom well it's a it's a tangled
00:21:11
web it it's okay so if you go all the way back to the original trial according to Adnan he wanted to plead guilty in
00:21:18
the first trial and his attorney according to him went to the prosecution and the prosecution wasn't interested in
00:21:26
giving him a deal vers Tri in a mistrial Adon wants to plead guilty again once again the prosecution is not interested
00:21:32
in giving him a deal he goes to trial he's convicted all of his sort of appeals are exhausted serel comes along
00:21:41
brings a ton of attention to this case I mean makes it maybe the most famous True
00:21:44
Crime case in the world you start getting a lot of new money comes in a lot of new lawyers they're looking at
00:21:49
new things a couple things that come up whether or not Christiana Gutierrez who was his attorney was ineffective for not
00:21:56
following up on Asia mlan who we haven't even talked about but Asia mlan wrote a
00:22:01
couple letters that said I saw Adon Sayed at the library around the time that the prosecution had said hey had
00:22:08
already been murdered and so the argument was if he's at the library he couldn't killed her the prosecution's
00:22:12
theory must be wrong therefore he's innocent there's a slot problem with that even if the prosecution's theory is
00:22:18
wrong Asia left the library shortly thereafter so he still could have done it it just means not when the
00:22:23
prosecution initially said so but anyways you know good argument and there was also an argument about the cell
00:22:27
phone data so as we've talked about there are outgoing calls and incoming calls everybody agrees the
00:22:35
outgoing calls are are good for location there's a huge debate over incoming calls Gutierrez never brought that up at
00:22:42
trial and so there was an argument that she was ineffective for that she should have brought that up and those two
00:22:48
issues there's there's much later something called postconviction review which can happen if there's new evidence
00:22:54
that comes to light things that you didn't know about before initially the the judge who heard the case says yeah
00:23:01
you know I think she was ineffective she should have talked to Asia she should have questioned this cell phone data
00:23:05
more new trial it gets appealed and eventually that ruling gets overturned no new trial goes away so at that point
00:23:14
Marilyn passes a couple laws one of them says that if someone is under 18 at the
00:23:19
time they commit a murder and they get a life sentence that sentence can be re reconsidered this is a this follows
00:23:26
along with a lot of Supreme Court president that's really questioning whether or not people under the age of
00:23:29
18 should get life without parole or the death penalty it's the same sort of thing so Marilyn passes a law and they
00:23:35
create like a unit to look at that at the same time the Baltimore Police and like their drug testing unit gets in a
00:23:42
bunch of trouble I think it's them forgive me if I'm wrong that gets in a lot of trouble and it turns out they
00:23:48
were doing a really poor job their drug testing so maryn passes a law that says hey if it's patently clear that somebody
00:23:56
you know was innocent or or or there was Major corruption in their case you can vacate their conviction so they start
00:24:03
looking at adon's case as an example of this under 18 thing like are we gonna are we going to give him sort of an
00:24:09
opportunity to be led out of prison because he was under 18 at the time a woman named Marilyn Mosby is the state
00:24:15
attorney for Baltimore she is also at the time under indictment for some accused obviously innocent until proven
00:24:24
guilty accused of some sort of fraud involving covid relief funds I don't even really understand it all she loses
00:24:30
her re-election and she is getting ready to go to trial and around that same time
00:24:35
the person who's looking at the case for whether or not he should be released because he was under 18 starts
00:24:40
advocating for vacating the conviction altogether at some point they decide to do that they put together a a motion to
00:24:48
vacate it and and the whole thing goes Haywire they do they they file the thing they call Hay's family and basically
00:24:56
tell them hey look we know for 20 years we've been telling you it was Adon Sayad
00:25:01
but now we're going to change our mind and say he's not guilty his case will be vacated on Monday
00:25:08
essentially they ask for a week they say hey can you give us a week so we can get
00:25:13
out there and appear in person and speak to the court about this and about our sister and our daughter right they say
00:25:20
no uhhuh go ahead well I was just going to say I mean don't they have to say here's the evidence against him but this
00:25:27
is why we they have to explain away that evidence they have to explain to the to
00:25:32
the victims and explain to the public why we're releasing this quote unquote killer and the victim has a right to
00:25:40
speak the victim has a right to appear in court and speak on behalf of their their relative it's a victim's rights
00:25:47
act and a lot of states have them and they're very important but they basically say no
00:25:52
we're not going to let you do that her brother lives in California and instead they send him a zoom link 30 minutes
00:25:58
before the thing starts he reads A prepared statement which if you haven't heard it is just heartbreaking his
00:26:03
prepared statement is heartbreaking he reads it they thank him they release ADOT yeah it's absolutely heartbreaking
00:26:10
and it's very confusing because they also don't explain anything to the victims or to the public correct there's
00:26:19
no evidentiary hearing there's no opportunity to present testimony there's no opportunity for the people who are
00:26:25
accused of misconduct including the prosecutor in the case one of the detectives to address that they use some
00:26:31
notes the prosecutor wrote which they interpret to mean one thing which he has since said they don't mean that there
00:26:37
are so many irregularities in this that you just don't see happen even in cases that end in exoneration think back to
00:26:43
the Michael Peterson case so the Michael Peterson case he gets convicted Dwayne ders turns out is just completely
00:26:51
incompetent well they didn't just release Michael Peterson they had an evidentiary hearing where they had
00:26:57
testimony they you know presented their arguments and then the judge said based on the
00:27:02
arguments and the testimony I'm vacating the conviction and I'm releasing Mr Peterson and then later on they entered
00:27:07
into a plea you in this case none of that happened you're 100% right and they just in really I mean in a whirlwind
00:27:16
they vacate the conviction Marilyn Mosby goes out and declares that Adon sad is innocent couple weeks later they get
00:27:21
back the DNA results from ha shoes that are inconclusive I mean it's the best thing you can describe them there's an
00:27:26
unknown touch DNA on her shoes that aren't Adon and for some reason that means it wasn't him so they dropped the
00:27:33
charges well at that point the brother Young Lee challenges this goes up to the Maryland court of
00:27:41
appeals Maryland court of appeals reverses all of that and says the whole thing was was improper he didn't give he
00:27:49
has an absolute right to appear he didn't give him that right to appear we're reversing the dismissal of the
00:27:55
indictment we're reversing the vacation of the conv ition but we're staying that
00:27:59
for 60 days if you want to appeal to the Supreme Court they ask the court of appeals to reconsider they deny it
00:28:06
they've appealed it to the Maryland Supreme Court and where the case currently stands is the Maryland Supreme
00:28:11
Court has continued that stay of the action of the of the court of appeals while it gets the briefing and hears the
00:28:18
arguments and at some point the Maryland court of appeals will decide whether or
00:28:22
not to agree with what or excuse me the Maryland Supreme Court will decide whether or not to agree with what the
00:28:27
court of appeals said or to reverse them if they reverse them Adon will go free and will be free if they uphold what
00:28:35
they did then we'll be back we'll be back where he's a convicted murderer and they'll have to decide what to do going
00:28:42
forward from that and I'll just say to people out there if you're interested in this case read the Maryland court of
00:28:48
appeals opinion and in particular read the footnotes because the footnotes just destroy the motion to vacate the actual
00:28:56
opinion is is all about victim's rights and how that was violated but then in the footnotes that's where the action is
00:29:01
so read the footnotes and you'll see all the problems some of which you've you've
00:29:05
laid out with why this was was [Music] [Applause] improper this show is sponsored by
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podcast you can start your day off right when you find a professional on Angie to
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get your Plumbing right first connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well
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visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that but it's also I think really
00:31:50
irresponsible because if I'm Haymon Lee's brother and I believe that Adon I had killed my sister strangled her and they
00:32:01
did not give me the evidence to to understand why they're letting a murderer out you better get security for that guy
00:32:18
cuz I'm coming after him I just think it's very irresponsible not just believe that this guy killed your sister but
00:32:28
being told by the state for 20 years that this guy killed your sister and then offered no no other explanation as
00:32:35
to oh well we we've we've changed our minds now Alice maybe you can help me out with
00:32:43
this here what is a Brady violation and was there one in this case sure so a Brady violation comes from the Supreme
00:32:50
Court um stating in the case Marilyn versus Brady that if the prosecution the the prosecution has to turn over has has
00:32:59
very stringent Discovery um obligations as it should because it's the investigative body and it the the
00:33:06
evidence is in its hands it has to turn over all evidence but not just evidence um that the person they've arrested is
00:33:14
um guilty of the crime they also have to turn over any evidence that could potentially be used um by the defense to
00:33:22
argue their side of the story so in other words the prosecution doesn't get to pick and what type of evidence gets
00:33:28
turned over to the defense they have to turn over everything including um evidence that could be helpful to the
00:33:34
defense um and it you know that is a very very serious obligation um in fact most um most prosecutors will go above
00:33:45
and beyond their Discovery obligations just so that they don't even come close to any sort of a Brady violation they uh
00:33:52
you know it's not quite open files but they will go above and beyond their Discovery obligation
00:33:57
because what you want to happen in the court of laws you want Justice to be done you want the proper
00:34:03
cross-examination to be done because you want ultimately the truth to come out in
00:34:07
the day you know a lot of people can say that the prosecution all they want to do
00:34:11
is to get another W on the board just win whoever they've arrested they want to make sure that they get them
00:34:17
convicted I mean having having practiced in this field that is the worst I would
00:34:24
say most prosecutors worst nightmare is to be on the side of having um uh be in violation of any sort of Discovery
00:34:35
obligation but even worse putting someone who is innocent of the crime in prison that is truly I mean wakes me up
00:34:43
at night and makes makes me make sure that I go above and beyond all of my obligations to make sure that I am not
00:34:50
um a player uh in that sort of a situation and so with respect to whether a Brady violation has happened in this
00:34:57
case no no a Brady violation has not happened in this case because remember just because evidence is turned over to
00:35:03
the other side there are ultimately strategy calls for any sort of attorney defense or prosecution as to what your
00:35:10
story is going to be out there we've already talked about the problems with Witnesses who may have um credibility
00:35:16
issues or even stories that may not be backed up by the evidence and so when evidence is turned over to the defense
00:35:22
the defense doesn't just wholesale throw everything at the board they have to take into account what story is going to
00:35:28
be believable in general believable to a jury and also what can feed into their their Narrative of what's going to
00:35:35
happen and so if a defense attorney gets information about a case and they ultimately choose as part of their
00:35:42
strategy not to present it as part of the defense that in itself is not necessarily INE effective assistance of
00:35:48
councel that in in of itself is not necessarily the defense attorney falling down on the job and shifting to
00:35:56
information that could or could not be Brady violation just because an piece of evidence could look good for the defense
00:36:06
doesn't necessarily mean it rises to the level of a Brady uh of being Brady material you know the the courts have
00:36:14
said often times it has to be materially um uh uh it has to materially affect the
00:36:21
case because there is always going to be this incredible amount of information that you can argue should have been in
00:36:27
or not but a lot of that information as we've talked about in adon's case is going to be ancillary to the actual
00:36:34
charges brought here you know an investigative file is you have to draw boundaries somewhere otherwise you know
00:36:40
the the amount of information that could come up that could come in is not helpful is duplicative and could also
00:36:48
just merely be confusing um if they have nothing to do with the case here yeah and I think when you think about this
00:36:56
not not every Discovery violation is a Brady violation and I think that's what confuses people I think there is this
00:37:02
notion that the prosecution has to give the defense everything well that's not true you don't actually have to give the
00:37:07
defense everything but even if you didn't give them something you should have that doesn't mean it's a Brady
00:37:12
violation you also have to prove that had you given it to them it would have had an effect and usually a pretty big
00:37:18
one on the case and a lot of times if the evidence is overwhelming anyway it won't even matter and I think people
00:37:23
miss all those little nuances and and to me was wild that the prosecution or the
00:37:29
state in this case included possible Brady violations as as a reason to vacate this conviction and the the
00:37:36
Attorney General of Maryland even came out and said none none of this is a Brady violation and it wasn't and
00:37:42
honestly and this goes back we talked about this on we have another podcast called legal briefs where we talked
00:37:47
about this this should have been argued in a court of law there should have been
00:37:53
argument about this with two sides debating it and putting putting on evidence and and putting people on the
00:37:58
stand and making them answer for the things they' done and that should have been done not only for hay and not only
00:38:05
for Adon but because the justice system is about the public too and it's about ensuring that the public has faith that
00:38:10
whatever you're doing is the right thing and they did this essentially in the dead of the night behind closed doors
00:38:16
without any presentation of evidence and it it bothered us then and when we looked into the case and we realized how
00:38:22
strong the case was it bothered us even more but this is not this is is not a case where he might be guilty but his
00:38:29
constitutional rights were violated so egregiously he should be out that did not happen in this case well one thing
00:38:34
that I learn is that there's the the two trials the first trial and the second trial and that at both trials that Adon
00:38:40
wanted to plead guilty to me that seems like somebody wanting to either just make a deal to save themselves or
00:38:47
possibly wanting to confess uh because some people do feel guilty and if he did love her and he did kill her he he might
00:38:54
feel bad about that and want to show remorse for it do you think do you have a thought process on on if he is guilty
00:39:03
on why he never has confessed to the crimes well at this point I I don't think you can I mean like you said I
00:39:10
don't live in adon's head but at this point I mean just imagine imagine you were in his
00:39:18
circumstances where the entire world is divided over whether or not you're innocent or guilty you have people
00:39:25
who've invested everything and proving your innocence and I and I don't think this
00:39:30
is the only case you see this in you know we talk about we talked about the Jeffrey McDonald case way back when and
00:39:37
I don't know how you guys I don't remember what you guys said about that case but I feel like you're on the same
00:39:40
page as we are you know Jeffrey McDonald yeah Jeffrey is guilty Jeffrey McDonald
00:39:46
you know he killed his family he's so obviously guilty and yet to this day he won't admit it and you have people who
00:39:53
will make that argument if he just admitted it he could get parole but won't admit it that must mean he's
00:39:58
innocent and and and like I said I'm not in his mind and I'm not a psychologist but I think that ignores some pretty
00:40:03
strong psychology when you think that's true I think it was much easier for Adnan when he's you know 18 and being
00:40:12
charged with murder and the trial is about to happen to plead guilty at that point get a you know whatever sentence
00:40:18
he would get and move on with his life now his entire being is wrapped up in being wrongfully convicted well and
00:40:25
that's what he wanted that's what he would have wanted 20 years ago right for a room divided which he he didn't get
00:40:33
and I mean that's what a defense attorney wants to get to a room divided because then then they're not convicting
00:40:39
your guy and now he has a room divided and you I'm the one that brought up psychology so I kind of circle back
00:40:47
around to that too I think there's some weird psychology about the whole serial presentation as well and I don't think
00:40:56
it's intentional on their behalf I think it's just human nature so you know they're journalists they're telling a
00:41:04
story but right out the gate just like they would in a sit down meeting with with their editor with their boss right
00:41:12
out the gate in serial they're say you know why are we doing this story why are we covering this story well we're
00:41:18
covering it because there's someone who tells us that their loved one has been wrongfully convicted or didn't get a
00:41:25
fair trial and he's been in prison all these years for a murder that he didn't commit
00:41:30
that's why we are doing the story and so I think it's human nature when you're tuning
00:41:38
in right out the gate that seed has been planted in your brain and as you continue to listen and as you continue
00:41:49
to invest your time in listening to this story that seed is already been planted
00:41:57
that well they're doing the story because he's innocent wrongfully convicted and um I'm I'm now continuing
00:42:04
to listen and giving that more weight and credibility on some weird psychology human nature level because
00:42:12
that PL that seed has been planted a long time ago look I think group group dynamics happen all the time they happen
00:42:19
in courtrooms too they happen with juries you have 12 people you get into a Jury Room I've never served on a jury I
00:42:25
wish I could but you can imagine if you take that first vote and 11 people say guilty and you're the only one saying
00:42:32
innocent you know maybe you spend the whole time trying to prove everybody else wrong or maybe you start to
00:42:37
reconsider you know why these people that you spent some time with and gotten to know and all seem like normal
00:42:42
rational people think the person's guilty and there's nothing wrong with that that's actually one of the ways
00:42:47
it's supposed to work supposed to make you question your own sort of preconceived notions but I think when it
00:42:52
comes to podcasts and I think it's important to remember this we try to remember it it's it's hard to do there
00:42:59
is there is always going to be a strong group dynamic of we all want to be in this together you know we all want to be
00:43:07
cheering for the right side and I think you saw that with serial it very effectively made you want to cheer for
00:43:14
Adnan and maybe by the end you weren't cheering for him anymore and you'd sort of G your own way but very much there
00:43:21
weren't that many people who listen to Cal and were like I have no idea there weren't that many people it was either
00:43:27
you strongly felt like he was guilty or you strongly felt like he was innocent and serial very effectively did that and
00:43:35
it's really hard to get out of of that kind of group mentality and and that psychology I think it's absolutely there
00:43:42
well and for me I I know a lot of people were really infatuated with this case and and really have stuck with it and
00:43:51
followed it since the first time they listened to serial I did not I I very much enjoyed the podcast but I kind of
00:44:00
moved on this there's other cases that peque my interest and oh by the way we're kind of doing a show about a new
00:44:06
case every week too so I had other things to to focus in on but you're your guys's podcast for me brought to light
00:44:16
some things and brought up some new things for me that I was unaware of that that are Central to this case and one
00:44:23
was the Anonymous phone call that was something I don't recall ever having any knowledge of uh the other thing and I
00:44:29
can't can't let you go until we talk about this a little bit and and bring everybody up to speed as as much as you
00:44:37
know right because it sounds like this is a bit of a shadowy figure here but who is balah Amed or Bal balah Ahmed I
00:44:47
think I'm trying to say that as best I can I'll let Alice take this one that's a that's a good
00:44:53
question you know I didn't know this was is where you were going Nick of all the
00:44:58
things in this case that you could have uh asked about I'm not going to say I knew what you were going to ask here so
00:45:03
Bal is this interesting like you said shadowy figure that kind of is part of this case but not much is really
00:45:10
discussed about him and not really that much is known about him basically we know that uh we know more about him now
00:45:16
than we did at the time um that all of this was happening with um Heyman Lee's investigation but balal is someone that
00:45:24
was like an older figure with in the mosque who knew Adnan um and interestingly enough we know that
00:45:31
adnan's parents uh didn't have a cell phone for him whether he was not allowed to or what have you he didn't have a
00:45:38
cell phone that was paid for by his parents but we know that bolal uh basically opened up a cell phone account
00:45:44
under his own name for Adon and that's the cell phone we've been talking about here the one that he left with Jay um
00:45:50
all the cell phone P were talking about that cell phone bill is actually opened under bal's name and and apparently he
00:45:56
had opened this phone account up for Adon the day before Brett I think the day before the day before that um hey
00:46:06
goes missing and so of course he's going to be an interesting figure here because
00:46:11
the cell phone is you know activated essentially right before hey is uh Hey disappears and is murdered and also like
00:46:20
who is he why is he getting a cell phone for Adnan who is a teenager at this time
00:46:25
uh balal is an older man and then you know fast forward many years balal has since been um in trouble with the law
00:46:33
himself with um kind of sexual improprieties with um with uh with minors as well was minor boys he
00:46:43
was a I mean he was a dentist so he was taking advantage of of boys basically who he would give them nitrous oxide and
00:46:52
then sexually abuse them so he's obviously uh you know he hasn't kept his nose clean and those are some very
00:46:57
serious allegations that have been brought against him um but you don't see him discuss that much we talk about him
00:47:04
a bit but he's an interesting figure just because of um his relationship with Adnan in that he provided the cell phone
00:47:11
that is Central to a lot of the evidence that we've been discussing the problem with him is he's like a black hole if
00:47:16
you if you get near him he will you get it's not a rabbit hole it's a black hole
00:47:21
and you get sucked into it and you can never get out because he's obviously he is such a shady individual he is a
00:47:29
criminal he is a sexual predator of young boys yet he's also friends with Adon he's opening up this cell phone for
00:47:37
him there are a lot of people who go a lot of different ways with him but the problem is you can you can speculate
00:47:47
well maybe he did it maybe you know and we mentioned this in one of our episodes
00:47:51
you know maybe he abused Adon and hey found out about it and so he had to kill her to silence her okay I mean that's a
00:47:57
great screenplay but there's literally no evidence of that whatsoever you know we have Hayes diary and she wasn't shy
00:48:03
about writing in it doesn't say anything like that you know you've got maybe Bala
00:48:09
did it for other reasons maybe he was doing it for for Adon and so you know but once again other than Bala sort of
00:48:17
being a bad guy there's just no real evidence of it and we we talked about him but we tried to just talk about him
00:48:26
in general because we didn't want to get sucked into that to that to that black hole I mean this case is one of those
00:48:32
cases and you guys see him too and y'all do an amazing job I don't know how you do it I don't know how y'all keep your
00:48:37
Series so short because you know we talked about this one for 14 episodes and could have done more but if you were
00:48:43
doing an entire show on the Adon side case you probably could talk a lot about balal we tried to avoid that which I
00:48:50
think was smart because like you said it's it's a black hole it's it's not I don't even think it's I brought him up
00:48:58
because I wanted to point out that once again that that you are bringing something new to the table for for some
00:49:05
of the people with their understanding of this case and so I I really only brought him up for that reason but like
00:49:12
you said he's a black hole because then then the problem if you if you want to go and make the giant leap that the Adon
00:49:20
didn't do this or that Jay didn't do it or the two didn't do it together for to be anybody else then you have to also
00:49:28
believe that Jay for whatever weird inconceivable reason would lie to police saying he
00:49:38
helped bury a body when he didn't and and and face severe criminal charges off of that statement it it when you talk
00:49:49
about Rhyme or Reason we don't have either with with that idea that that somebody else could have done it and
00:49:56
then oh by the way this guy also admitted to burying a body that he had nothing to do and I think that's such an
00:50:01
important point and it goes back to what you said about their three real possibilities here you can never forget
00:50:08
the giant conspiracy theory that you have to buy into hanging over here where the Baltimore Police are somehow a bunch
00:50:15
of bumbling idiots frankly you know because we all know the Baltimore Police do a lot of really stupid things but
00:50:22
also have managed to build this amazing conspiracy that involved Jay and Jen for
00:50:29
no reason Jay and Jen they're not covering for themselves they're just framing Adon because they were forced to
00:50:36
do so and that's why whenever you you know Bal you might be like man I don't know balal seems good or Alonzo cers
00:50:42
that guy you know he's he he could have done something like this or you know DA's the current boyfriend maybe it was
00:50:47
him but that that hangs there just over you the whole time and for me it's the reason that you know we talk about the
00:50:56
difference between Reasonable Doubt and any doubt that's something that's important in the court system and when I
00:51:01
look at this case it it it is just I feel it so much because there are times where I'm sitting around and I'm like
00:51:07
well you know I mean I guess something could have happened maybe something happen so that Adon didn't do this it's
00:51:12
hard for me to figure out what it is but maybe maybe you know and then I'm like but no that that actually is completely
00:51:18
unreasonable because of all the things that would have to be true for that to to to be a fact and I think you're 100%
00:51:24
right you just keep coming back to that it can't it just it can't be the case that Jay is not involved in this at all
00:51:32
it just can't be the case and for it to be any of those other people that's what
00:51:36
you'd have to believe when I think people put so much weight on whether Jay Wilds is lying or not and we know he's a
00:51:42
liar but does that mean he's lying about everything but the wrench in this becomes Jen because she doesn't seem
00:51:51
like she's a liar and somehow she knows this story before Jay even tells this to
00:51:57
the cops before there's a deal made she does and people forget about her and they forget about her a lot or they
00:52:03
ignore her and I think there's a reason for that if you go back and you read her
00:52:10
statement that she gave before before Jay gets picked up it is to me one of the most believable statements that you
00:52:19
can read it just reads like it's true and people point out well yeah but it's all here say she didn't see anything she
00:52:25
just heard it from Jay that's true but that means Jay told her the story first before the police got to him before the
00:52:33
police could have fed him any information she's walking into a police station with her lawyer and her mother
00:52:38
sitting down and telling the basic story in fact telling them some details that Jay doesn't even offer in his first
00:52:45
statement like the fact that it happened at the Best Buy Jay told Jen that Jay in
00:52:49
his first story doesn't tell the police that which I've always thought was interesting you know if the police were
00:52:53
feeding this story to them why isn't that consistent that's a pretty important detail but it's not and yeah
00:53:00
you just JY JY is just a glaring red flag if you want to try and get around Jay this case is uh pretty emotional for
00:53:10
me I was in school at the same time as these characters in this you know it's almost
00:53:17
like a tragic Opera but I feel like we always forget about hymon Lee and how special of an individual she was and and
00:53:29
how she's the real victim in this and she's always going to be the real victim in this tragic
00:53:38
play and maybe the prosecution will come out and tell us why they let him free and how that makes sense in all of this
00:53:48
and what evidence they found and what suspects and maybe they can actually make an
00:53:54
arrest and bring some justice to hymon Lee but what do you guys think is next in this Saga so I
00:54:04
think as we often talk about on the show the further you get from the trial court the less the facts of the case
00:54:12
matter when you're moving up the appeals court the more and more the court is concerned about the precedent that it's
00:54:18
setting and I think and this is my opinion I think the vacation of adon's conviction was a
00:54:26
fraud on the court I think it is an absolute Injustice I think it was done improperly whether he's innocent or not
00:54:33
and I think it was a violation of everything we hold dear in the justice system and it should be overturned even
00:54:39
if they go back to court and they do it right this time and they do it in the open and they have the evidence
00:54:44
presented and they reach the exact same conclusion I think that's what should happen the court of appeals what's weird
00:54:50
about this case is because the state did what it did there the person to attack the conviction is kind of missing or the
00:54:57
the vacation is kind of missing ordinarily it'd be the state they'd file an appeal everything would be very
00:55:02
normal in in ordinary course but in this case you had the victim the victim's brother who has to stand in for hay and
00:55:10
has to speak for her and there is one hero in the story it's Young Lee who to this day has not stopped fighting for
00:55:16
his sister despite immense pressure to do so he steps in and challenges this on the basis of victim's rights and
00:55:24
unfortunately in this country and and and you know it's this way for a lot of really good important
00:55:30
reasons people who are accused of crimes have all kinds of Rights people who are
00:55:35
victims of crimes often don't and the states have tried to remedy that by passing laws but a lot of times they
00:55:40
don't have teeth and Young Lee using one of those laws has challenged this the court of appeals I think they looked at
00:55:47
this case and like I said if you read those footnotes you see it they saw a massive
00:55:51
Injustice and they undid everything that had been been done up to this point the
00:55:56
Supreme Court of Maryland when they think about this though they have to consider all the other cases you know
00:56:02
they have to consider things like standing which nobody wants us to get into because it's so boring they have to
00:56:07
consider how broad the victim's rights statute should be and I kind of wonder if they wash their hands of the cases
00:56:14
not quite right but basically say the standing Doctrine and the victim's right Doctrine is not Brad enough to do this
00:56:21
to overturn this vacation this this not the way you can do it and I kind of feel
00:56:28
like that's the way they're going to go because I think they're going to be thinking about the law sort of r large
00:56:31
and not the individual case so at the end of the day I think it's likely that his conviction which has been reinstated
00:56:39
but that reinstatement has been put on hold that the court of appeals opinion ends up not going into effect and he'll
00:56:45
be a free man yeah it's uh again it's all sad because we tend to forget about him and Lee and and if Adon is truly
00:56:54
innocent then you're you are out now and you have power to bring pressure onto the prosecution to find the real killer
00:57:04
if you are not the Killer and we've see this in other cases where people say once I get out free I'm going to work to
00:57:11
get Justice for the victims and they seem to never do that it's it's very depressing all all of this I'm just so
00:57:21
depressed about what Brett said I don't know if I can add more to that um I I think what's important that Brett said
00:57:27
right there is we this should have gone about the proper way and it absolutely was not done the proper way even if the
00:57:34
they went back to the district court and um moved for vacation through an evidentiary hearing and it came out the
00:57:41
exact same way I would be okay with that because the proper procedures were followed and we care about procedures
00:57:46
because there this is not the only criminal case right this is if this is a uh wrongful conviction this hopefully
00:57:54
you know there are not many wrongful convictions but we want to make avenues for the overturning of wrongful
00:57:59
convictions and procedure matters because that is the route in which we can seek Justice in the court systems no
00:58:04
matter your facts and no matter who you are and what has happened in adnan's case I think threatens that because it
00:58:10
makes it it makes the Judiciary System uh a laughable uh completely laughable to others who are looking at the
00:58:18
Judiciary especially if they are not on the inside and don't know how the Judiciary System works I am afraid that
00:58:24
Brett premonition of what's going to happen at the Maryland Supreme Court will come to
00:58:29
fruition but I hope it is not true so you know we will we will keep our eyes open for what happens next but we
00:58:37
absolutely do know that what happened in the first instance in s in terms of his
00:58:42
vacation at The District Court did not follow the proper procedures I want to applaud you guys for having an
00:58:48
intelligent conversation about this case we might not agree on every little detail
00:58:55
but it's important that we hear all sides and it's important for hmon Lee again the the true victim
00:59:05
and all this and so what one of the things I I really loved about your guys' coverage is you said hey don't take our
00:59:12
word for all this there's other sources that you should check out can you just tell the audience uh some of those
00:59:19
sources that you believe they they should go check out if they're interested in diving more into the case
00:59:25
of hymon Lee well I just want to say you know I listen to Cal again and Nick you're 100% right when you listen to it
00:59:32
it takes you back to a place in time when you hear that that music the serial theme song you know you're just you're
00:59:38
right back in 2013 2014 whenever exactly that was that it came out I think it's worth it to listen to cereal look a lot
00:59:45
has changed since cereal a lot has come out since cereal but seral it was it was
00:59:51
good I mean it was really good and it was really entertaining and in some ways a lot of you out there
00:59:57
who who Listen to True Crime a lot now if you listen to serial you'll also see a lot of the flaws and you'll see the
01:00:02
little tricks and you'll see the places where things are sort of OBS cated to keep the mystery going but I do think
01:00:08
you should listen to serial and then two of the big programs that I think have done the most for laying out the case
01:00:14
for adon's innocence the one that's indispensable is undisclosed undisclosed which is three lawyers including Robbie
01:00:22
a chalry that that is sort of the I think the gold standard for if you want to hear the arguments for how Adon side
01:00:31
is innocent should listen to that the other one Bob Ruff who always puts on a good show truth and Justice his very
01:00:37
first season was called the serial Dynasty and it was happening basically parallel with undisclosed so you hear a
01:00:43
lot of sort of a lot of he's talking about undisclosed a lot he's talking to some of the people in undisclosed and so
01:00:48
it's interesting to hear sort of both their perspectives on the episodes as they come out those are great toist
01:00:54
listen to but I think if you are really fascinated about this and you spend a lot of time with this
01:00:59
case the case File is big but it's not as bigest some and it's out there and you can read it we've put a lot of it on
01:01:06
our website there are a lot of websites that have the information on there read the trial transcript read the interview
01:01:12
transcripts with JY and and with Jay you know read through it for yourself you guys you're all you know you're all
01:01:21
qualified to be jurors you're all smart enough to decide whether or not somebody
01:01:24
guilty or innocent based on the evidence the evidence is there go go look at it for yourself don't let anybody tell you
01:01:30
what to [Music] [Applause] think want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage Colonel do
01:01:51
we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners now Captain I know that we have recommended this one before
01:01:58
but it's a great read and the story shares some unfortunate similarities with the hmon Lee case so this week we
01:02:06
are recommending little crazy children by longtime friend of the show James rener in this True Crime Story a young
01:02:15
High School couple the girl in this case is Lisa pruit she's just 16 when she is
01:02:20
stabbed to death in the affluent neighborhood of Shaker Heights Lisa had snuck out to go over to her boyfriend's
01:02:28
house she is found outside by police after calls alerting the police to screams heard in the neighborhood now
01:02:36
did her boyfriend kill her or did someone intercept her late that night you'll want to check out little crazy
01:02:44
children a true crime Tragedy by James rener you can find that great title and many more recommendations on our
01:02:51
recommended page true Crim garage.com and until next week be good be kind and don't
01:02:57
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