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Welcome to Off the Record. How do you get rid of a high? Mhm. I don't know. How do you get rid of a high?
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Heyo. Eat some broccoli. What is there a Is there a method? I don't I don't know.
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it's just drink water, right? I don't know, but that's the uh that was the first standout
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thing for me in episode two. I know we heard it in the Serial podcast. Yeah. But the the
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reminder of Adnan asking, "How do you get rid of a high?" because now he's stoned
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and he's learning that he's going to have to talk to the police or investigators.
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Yeah. And but it also makes you wonder, "What are they smoking? Is it not the use? You know what I
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mean?" Mhm. Because if if I you know, back in the day or even now, if I have a couple drinks
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and you know, maybe I have a couple drinks and then I find out through a text or through a email that
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the phone meeting is going to happen tonight. Mhm. Okay, well, I know that if I drink a
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little bit, maybe I need to get some food into my system, have a couple waters, whatever I need to do to get
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back to professional status for the meeting. So, I just wonder, were they smoking
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more of something or a different kind of smoking? You know, was it a different type of weed?
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Well, even if it's the same um you know, I think this is just a a panic reaction to a trigger in his brain
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that's like, "Oh, I I need to talk to I am going to have to talk to an investigator at some point. And it could
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be very soon. And I think he's just like, you know, throwing out a thought, throwing out a
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question that maybe he's asking himself inside internally at first and then it just pops out of his mouth. How do you
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get rid of a high? Because now I'm extremely uncomfortable. It just seems like such an amateur thing to say
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though. Or ask out loud. Well, and I think that's the response of the friends that were around it or the people he was
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hanging out with that there's a lot of indication to suggest that he wasn't necessarily friends with the people that
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he was hanging out in that particular moment. Um but and I believe it's one of the um
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one of the girls that he's hanging out with that evening that amongst the group of people that is
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kind of like what's up with this dude? Yeah, what's up What's up with that? Right, he's at Ooh wee.
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Yeah, how do you get rid of a high? And then, you know, she's like probably thinking, "I'm pretty high. This is
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pretty good. Why would you want to get rid of this?" Right, but this is also somebody that
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doesn't know him. Uh what was your overall take of part two? Oh, I really liked part two. I I
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mean, I liked part one as well, but for me I thought that it was um a little more fast-paced than part one.
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And it was really kind of diving into some portions of the of the case. Mhm. Um it could have been a little easier to
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Well, I was going to say easier to follow along, but that wasn't the issue. I think there
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where where it may have lacked would have been the argument for or against or comparing
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things that they knew or were presenting about the case to other Right. other things that could have actually been
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going on. So, they're kind of giving you pieces of the story and and almost in a
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way as detectives are finding this information out. But then that's really kind of the
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big question that I think that they're circling around for a while is did Jay offer up this information? Did
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he provide detectives with this information or were they leading him along the way? Were they Were they
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you know, suggesting things to him? I I thought as far as the entertainment value
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and also I think because we haven't heard enough of Hae's side that the episode one part one was better than I
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thought two was. Oh, yeah. Um Yeah, I agree. I Now that you mention Hae's side, that that was certainly an
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interesting angle that that's just not been a part of the the case. Right. And then and I think Jay's timeline and then
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Jay's um interviews have really been focused on and micro-focused on. And and so now we do it again, but I almost feel
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like as far as the documentarians go they didn't do it so clearly. They It was almost a captain answer. Like now
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we're 15 minutes into the answer, we don't know where this is going. You think that Serial, the podcast, was more
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clear when analyzing Jay's story? Mhm. Maybe, but I just think in a whole whole like I mean again, like I said, if
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you if you listen to Serial and you thought you knew anything about the case, well you're just talking about 10%
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15%. You have the outline. You have to really dive into and that's where Undisclosed and and people like Bob, our
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buddy Bob Ruff, dove into these very tiny inconsistencies. And I just think there
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would there was a way to point these out. There's also going to be a a thing that I bring up,
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which I think if you're heavily into this case, you would have got you would have seen that happen in this episode,
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but I don't know if it would be clear to the average viewer. Okay. So, when when they go through the
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timeline, they keep talking about and I I just want to bring up my notes to have this
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make a lot of sense. Sure. But, the main thing is that we we're going through this timeline and they're they're
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stating, the police are, that they talked to Jen, Jay's friend, on the 26th. Mhm. She's not completely honest.
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When she knew she was going to have to go talk to the police, Jay said, "Hey, say whatever you have to say.
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You know, keep yourself clean. Mhm. Uh and then tell them to come talk to me." So, then come the 27th, Jen then goes
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back and talks to the cops, but now this point she has a lawyer. She's a little more
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uh forthcoming with what she knows, and then the cops basically say, "Hey, we we
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talked to Jay on the 28th. Mhm. We interviewed him. Then, after we interview him, we go find
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Hae's car because Jay told us where it was at." And then on the 28th, they arrest Adnan.
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Mhm. So, that's the timeline that they're presenting, and one of the things that uh a private investigator
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talks about is I believe it was like the 20 20th, 21st, and 22nd, where Jay missed work Mhm. because he
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was talking to the police, or this is what he claims. Now, the police's timeline does does not line
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up then if what the private investigator is saying is true. Right. So, you can't
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sit there and say, "Well, that's the first time we talked to Jay was the 28th." Um so, I think that part was pretty
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unclear because I think that's kind of a bombshell. When the police are saying, "Hey, we
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talked to Jen." I always I always wondered, why did they talk to Jen first? If they have Adnan's cell phone records,
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and they have you you know, the first call would have been to Jay. So, wouldn't they reach out to Jay
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first? And maybe there was not questioning, but maybe there was rolling up to his work or something.
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But, I mean, he uses his uses that as an excuse on why he wasn't at work. Mhm. So, I thought that could have been a
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little more clear that, "Hey, this is a this is strange." Yeah, so regarding them talking to Jen first, if
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if in fact they did. Um Well, based off of what they're saying is they did. Would they have spoke to her first
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because talking to Adnan on the phone, cuz it correct me if I'm I'm wrong on any of
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this. You know the case a little better than I do. But, having spoke to Adnan on the phone,
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investigators looking for this missing girl, would they have learned from that phone
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call that he was at Jen's that evening? Or at some point on that day? Well, I think they knew that from the phone
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records. Okay. Because there was a there was a phone call that was made to Jen. If you whether whether or not you
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believe Jay, believe what Jay is saying at the end of the the night in questioning, the 13th of January,
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that after they're done, basically what he's stating is that Adnan killed Hae, showed the body to him. Mhm. They go to
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Lincoln Park. They bury the body in a shallow grave. And then they throw a bunch of stuff
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away. And then Jay took or Adnan drives Jay home. And then that's when Jen comes and picks him up.
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Mhm. Now, Jen's story is, "Why didn't pick him up at his house? I picked him up at a mall."
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Mhm. But so so that's the uh that that's his his story. But what we have is that Jay called Jen
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at some point or Adnan called Jen at some point. So we have those in the phone records. So
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that's obviously why they're talking to her. Right. And I think people sometimes get that confused like, "Well,
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how would they know to talk to Jen?" It's an easy trail. It's an easy trail to her. And and the
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thing that gets a little convoluted is that it seems to be that likely Jay was the one that called Jen but but using
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Adnan's phone. Right. So in reviewing the phone records or the phone information, investigators don't know
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who's placing the call but they know where it's coming from Adnan's phone and it's going to this individual. So let's
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go interview her. Right. And all they had to do and a lot of people make a big deal of how
00:11:00
they they creep the the cops creep up on Jen and they knew her name. And knew stuff about her. Well, what they did was
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they took the phone records and then they went back and said, "Whose number is this?"
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Okay, that's Here's Jen's, you know, number and let's uh I I think you know, to let's do a little
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investigation before we roll up on her. Right. So and um it's a made a big deal that these people
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were almost like waiting to talk to the cops. Like the cops make a bigger deal about that. Like we rolled
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up on her and she she wasn't too shocked that we were there. Mhm. So. I don't know how big of a deal that is
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though. Right. No, I I mean I don't That's really just the police perception though, too. It might not be
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the case at all. It might Jen may have been a little bit surprised uh that she was talking to them at that exact
00:12:04
moment. One thing that I'm going to point out that I thought was a little strange was after Jay does his once he's
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on the stand, he leaves the stand and they showed that clip. And I just kind of thought it was odd
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like to me, if this guy's walking past me, he has to walk from left to right of me
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past the desk I'm sitting at. I'm on trial. Mhm. I'm probably following him a little bit with my eyes.
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And I notice if you look at Adnan, it's almost like he didn't even like almost on purpose like let me try
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to act like this guy's not even there. Mhm. So he just kind of keeps looking straight, never kind of follows him with
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his eyes. Which I think if I just listen to somebody tell a story that I'm saying is
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complete [ __ ] Mhm. I'd have a hard time not staring that guy down a little bit.
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There was one case that I was looking at a few months ago and I don't recall the
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the um person on trial's name, but there was somebody on the stand that said he was at a certain
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certain place at a certain time, which would have made him look very likely as the guilty murderer Right. of the victim
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and he lost it. He the person gives their testimony and right at the end, before they can
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finish, he, the defendant, jumps up out of his chair and he's screaming at the judge and the jury and anybody
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that's willing to listen that these are all lies. I'm innocent. That person is lying. I wasn't there. I don't know what
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they're talking about, how they came up with this. He goes on and on about you know, this loud rant and he and he
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I only heard the audio. I didn't see cuz this is from an old trial. I don't think
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that there was a video camera present. If there was, I've not seen the video footage.
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He sounds incredibly aggressive and incredibly angry and the problem that that presented for him
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was the judge and the jury are then able to go well, this dude looks like he could get
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violent pretty easily because now he's jumping up and shouting in this courtroom and he's scared all of us a
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little bit. Now it's not too hard to believe that he he may have murdered this woman and then
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unfortunately, he was wrongfully convicted and it was years before his conviction was overturned, but it's one
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of those it's one of those strange situations where we hear often that that people will will
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have these predetermined notions on how someone is supposed to react or or defend themselves.
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Right. And I think that's the problem is because you take this latest clip of R Kelly
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jumping up in the interview screaming, "I'm fighting for my life. You guys are trying to kill me. I'm
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fighting for my life. You're taking everything from me." And he's like crying and there's a part of me that is
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like look, Adnan didn't act like this at all. Mhm. Like look, first of all, let's get
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out of the way. R Kelly is 100% guilty Right. of whatever they charge him with. Um But but But but you wonder, you go,
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Adnan doesn't act like this. He's a little more calm. Why wouldn't he be more angry? If he was innocent, he'd be
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more angry. But you can't and I think that's what as true crime becomes more popular and
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people study it more often, you have to step back and say, just because I would do something doesn't
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mean that because a person didn't do that, again, like I said, I find it a little strange that Adnan didn't stare
00:16:01
Jay down. Mhm. I don't know if that points to him being innocent or guilty. I'm just saying that's something I
00:16:08
noticed and that's what we're here to talk about, is what I noticed and what you notice. Right. So,
00:16:14
again, I think we need to be more intelligent as we're looking at these things and so many
00:16:20
times, especially with the Adnan case, I mean, I've I've talked about this case more than probably any other case
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and when we've gone to Crime Cons and meet up events, gotten to long discussions and I think
00:16:34
some people just they start assuming things for one and then they start jumping to conclusions where
00:16:40
with this case, I'm I've been trying to slow my roll a little bit. Mhm. Well, and and that's the thing. You can
00:16:46
say all day and night how you think someone should behave or react to something, but as I just pointed out
00:16:53
with the with that murder trial, that reaction, the reaction that some people say that you should have when
00:17:00
you're accused of something that you are absolutely 100% innocent of, Right. by by jumping up and defending himself in
00:17:08
court, he he hung himself in in you know, in a way in front of the jury and in front of the judge who now goes,
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"Well, this guy is Right. know, he's lost his grip, you know, he he can't can't even hold it
00:17:21
together during these court proceedings. Who knows how angry he got at the victim
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and and killed her?" Right. And and to stay on my point about the open-mindedness,
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um you know, the thing that I was really taken away from last night was and and the argument that you the
00:17:42
here's the argument is Jay's a liar. So, we see that time and time again his story doesn't line up.
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His story doesn't even line up with the other witnesses. Sometimes his story doesn't even line up
00:17:57
with the story he told before. Right. And it's changing. It's kind of um and just like his friend said, "Look, if
00:18:05
it if they're coming to point the finger at you, he'll throw you under the bus."
00:18:09
Mhm. And Jay's a storyteller and all these things. Look, that's true. We know that.
00:18:16
But, if I lie out of there's 10 points of evidence, right? If I lie about nine of them, but the
00:18:24
10th one is that Adnan killed Hae, and that is the truth, Mhm. and that doesn't change,
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is he still a liar? Yes. Is he still telling you pieces of truth? Possibly. And I think that's one the
00:18:43
initial detective, which I think is like D'Souza, I want to say. Um he was the original detective when Hae
00:18:51
was missing. And that's what he kind of was trying to say. Like, yes, you're interviewing this person, you're asking
00:18:57
this person questions. You you possibly could call it an interrogation, but let's just say at
00:19:02
this point it's more of an interview. He's telling you some stuff you know is [ __ ] but he's also telling you some
00:19:08
stuff that you never learned before, that you didn't know. So, it's like then the argument becomes did the cops know
00:19:15
where Hae's car was and they told Jay where it was or did Jay know where it was? Mhm. Now, that doesn't also mean
00:19:24
that doesn't also mean that that he put that car there with Adnan. At some point Jay could have came up on
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this car on his own accord. You know what I mean? Through travels. Through driving I mean, that was a thing
00:19:42
at least in my town Friday, Saturday night you jump in a car with one of your buddies and you're going from house to
00:19:48
house kind of hanging out with different buddies. And is it possible that Jay saw the car
00:19:54
during a time like that? So, but the but the broad stroke there is yes, Jay's a liar and we have we know
00:20:03
that. We have evidence of that. But, I also think that we possibly have evidence of him telling the truth at
00:20:08
times. And so, that's where it gets a little fishy. Mhm. Well, and that's been the whole
00:20:16
issue I think with this case is Jay's story. It It always has been and likely always will be. Well, it's very
00:20:24
irresponsible of the police and this is one of the things they didn't put point out. I
00:20:31
mean, just like I said before, Jay's story is that Adnan drops him off at at Jay's house and then Jen comes and picks
00:20:38
up Jay at Jay's house. Jen, the one of their other witnesses says, "No, I picked him up at a mall."
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So, right there they're putting people on the stands that have conflicting stories.
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And that should be enough to start raising red flags and possibly black flags because that creates reasonable doubt
00:21:03
right away. And so, it it there were so many points of this episode that just hit so hard with me
00:21:11
that this is not a fair trial. Whether you think he's guilty or innocent, this guy did not get a fair
00:21:17
shake. Not when they're putting multiple people on the stands where their stories
00:21:21
don't even line up. And I'd also argue if that they're creating I don't think the cops are creating the
00:21:29
story as much as I thought initially. I think Jay is constantly changing the story, and that probably became
00:21:37
a big uh problem for for uh the prosecution. Mhm. But, to have a situation where you know that Jay
00:21:46
is going to to say something that's different than Jen, you think that they would try to clear up some of those
00:21:52
points. But, I think the cops viewed it as well, it doesn't really matter where he
00:21:59
got picked up at because that's after the crime. Well, to me it does because if your star witnesses' stories don't
00:22:06
even line up, then I can assume that one one of them or both of them are lying. And you also have a a situation where
00:22:15
Jen talks to the cops on the 26th, admits that she's lying, and then says that she's completely truthful on the
00:22:21
27th. I can't believe you. Once we know that you're a liar um as far as the trial goes,
00:22:31
if I assume that you lie about anything, I have to assume And this is this is how
00:22:36
our justice system works. If we know that this guy's a liar, we have to assume um
00:22:44
for the innocence that everything he's saying is lying. Does does does that make sense?
00:22:51
Yeah. Like, that's something that the defense should have actually pointed out in this case. That if we're looking at
00:23:00
this evidence, and we know this person's a liar. But that's not a flaw in the justice
00:23:05
system, that's a flaw in the defense of Adnan Syed. Right, but it it and it's actually a
00:23:10
plus in the justice system because there's whenever we're whenever we're supposed to assume
00:23:19
something, we're supposed to assume it on the side of innocence. And that's the the whole term, you know,
00:23:27
innocent until proven guilty. That's kind of where that comes from because anything So, again, if we know
00:23:34
he's lying about some things, we have to assume that he's a liar, then we have to
00:23:40
assume then if he's not testifying on the behalf or saying that Adnan did this, we don't have a trial.
00:23:50
Cuz we don't have any physical evidence. Mhm. You see what I'm saying? So, that's what this episode to me kept
00:23:57
on going back to is these little points. But now, trying to solve this case and to get to
00:24:02
the truth, I have to be open-minded to the idea of just because he's lying about certain
00:24:07
things or maybe misremembering. Cuz you got to remember there was a long period that she wasn't found.
00:24:15
We're talking about, you know, a time lapse. And so, he's might he might be thinking, "Hey,
00:24:22
she picked she picked me up at my house." And she might be thinking of a different night. Who knows? Mhm. So, I I
00:24:30
don't like to assume that he's a lying lying about everything, but I couldn't tell you which things he which things I
00:24:36
know are true or which ones I know are false. Well, if in fact, you know, a lot of these people in this
00:24:42
circle and Jay's circle would tell us even all these years later that he was shady, that he was a liar,
00:24:49
that he was always telling stories, making things up. He could be wearing a I think they He something like he could
00:24:55
be wearing a green shirt and convince you that it's blue. Right. And you the the troubling thing with Jay
00:25:04
is if he is lying about some small minute detail that doesn't really have anything
00:25:11
to do with the overall statement at the end of the day of Adnan killed Hae Min Lee. Right.
00:25:20
It's it's very difficult. I mean, look, I throughout my life I've I've known of I can think of two or three people
00:25:27
immediately where I knew them for an extensive period of time in my life and they
00:25:34
they were individuals that just seemed to lie about everything and anything to the point where it didn't even make
00:25:41
sense. Like they're you know Right, but if they don't do it in a harmful way, it's
00:25:46
those people in my life I've always just thought of as bullshitters. They're not trying to harm anybody with
00:25:53
the lie. No, I know, but that's why it makes zero sense to even create the lie to begin with.
00:25:59
Right. And one trait that I believe that these people that I'm thinking of shared
00:26:04
is that on a long enough timeline, the things they said they at some point couldn't keep them
00:26:10
straight. It was almost like they were living in a different reality than other people were because Right. I think they
00:26:16
get in a way they confuse themselves. And so Jay may just be, as you kind of pointed
00:26:23
out, may just be confused on some of the smaller details because he just lies all
00:26:28
the time or makes up stories all the time and he and he's he lives a different reality than the
00:26:34
than than the the real world. Right. And I I think the other thing that they didn't hit home enough
00:26:42
which they've talked about in the first part as well as when you have a cover sheet that says here's the cell phone
00:26:48
pings and oh by the way the incoming calls we have to rule all those out. Because the incoming call
00:26:56
that ping uh we we have no evidence that those are correct. At the time, that was the cell phone
00:27:04
ping technology. So, when then the cops then start taking Jay's interviews and testimony and start
00:27:13
having those try to match with incoming call pings Mhm. well, we know that those aren't always
00:27:21
correct. So, I think that makes this story even more [ __ ] Uh but it was the fact that the defen- I
00:27:28
don't believe the defense ever got that cover. No. And if and if they did, they would
00:27:35
have been able to rule out the majority of the cell phone pings. So uh I think that's something that wasn't
00:27:43
brought up. So, you have possibly meeting Jay multiple times before the cops claim they did.
00:27:50
Um then you have uh Jay's lying, but is he lying about everything? Jay's story doesn't line up with Jen's.
00:28:00
Those are red flags. Mhm. Those those uh you have to start assuming innocence. And like I said, on top of that, these
00:28:09
cell phone pings don't make any sense. So, now when you think back to Serial, when they start going over the cell
00:28:14
phone ping technology, you go, "Wait a second. The the DA is telling you that this this
00:28:20
cell phone ping technology, when it's incoming calls, can't be discussed because it's not accurate." Mhm. Then
00:28:27
that throws out another big thing that's been a part of this case and this discussion for a long time.
00:28:33
So, I I think that also goes to the fact of Jay's story not lining up or or adding up. Well, if in fact the defense
00:28:41
never did receive that that sheet that um paper that you're discussing That's enough reason for a new trial.
00:28:48
Well, yeah, of course. One thing. That's That's the the law. I mean, that that if if the defense needs to be
00:28:55
working with everything that the prosecution um has available to them at the time that
00:29:01
they bring the charges. Right. And and it and especially if it's part of your case against the individual. So,
00:29:10
uh that's a tricky thing. Um You want me to keep going down some of my list? We we can. I I do want to just kind of
00:29:17
underline something that you were talking about earlier. So, it's So, it's kind of clear. Um
00:29:24
Regarding Jay's statements or his work history of missing 2 days of work because he was being questioned by
00:29:32
police. Right. It It seems to me, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like
00:29:40
that's almost like a they the the uh private investigator finds that information somehow, someway. Yeah.
00:29:49
Is that just his work being told by Jay, "I can't come in today because I'm being questioned by
00:29:56
police, or I have to go to the police department"? Right. You know what I mean? It's It's
00:30:00
Look, almost everybody out there, if not everyone out there, has called in sick to work or called in sick to school and
00:30:08
missed a day when they weren't sick. You know? So, it's it's not so far-fetched to believe that he goes,
00:30:15
"Oh, I I have this great excuse now that I of something that my employer must understand that I can't get out of. I
00:30:23
don't have any choice in the matter. I It's an excused absence from work." Right.
00:30:28
That's very possible. Um and it's tough, too, because I think Jen I actually think Jen gets a bad rap.
00:30:36
And the reason why is cuz she she is just hearsay. She There's no evidence of anything
00:30:43
other than we have a phone We got a phone call record, so she got some cell phones from the suspect's
00:30:52
cell phone. She got some calls from the suspect's cell phone. But everything else that she's saying is
00:30:58
complete hearsay. Mhm. So, I don't even know why she's called. Because it seems like you could defend that so
00:31:06
easily. Were you there? You know, oh well, Jay said that uh they buried Hae. Were you there? No, I
00:31:13
wasn't. Mhm. You know what I mean? Like It right. It's so much like why was she She's She's only there for the portion
00:31:18
of picking Jay up from somewhere. Right. Regardless if it was a shopping mall or
00:31:23
Jay's home. Right. And what we do know is that yes, her story doesn't line up completely with Jay's, but what we do
00:31:30
know is it's pretty proven that this was the story that's been told to her all along
00:31:37
or some version of the story has been told to her all along. Mhm. And then you can get look at it and
00:31:42
go, well, what a piece of [ __ ] for not coming forward. Well, maybe she didn't fully believe it.
00:31:49
And But I just think she gets a bad rap because everything that she's saying is just stuff that she heard and it's just
00:31:54
hearsay. Mhm. Um This Well, this isn't evidence, obviously. This is just my instinct.
00:32:02
But watching her, listening to her, even on the podcast or watching her on these two episodes so
00:32:10
far. Sh- She's the one that for for whatever reason, just instinct instinct alone,
00:32:17
she's the one that I seem to just genuinely believe. Like she seems to me, I I just feel like she's telling
00:32:25
the truth or the truth as she believes it to be. Yeah. Well, I mean, she goes and picks up Jay. Part Part of her story
00:32:32
is that she goes and picks up Jay late at night. Adnan's driving Adnan's car. Okay, so she picks him up at the mall.
00:32:39
Who cares? That doesn't show innocence or guilt. But then Jay says, "Hey, we you know, we used my shovels." And this
00:32:47
is before she knows how much Jay's involved or how much Jay is claiming to be involved. And then they go to this
00:32:56
dumpster and search and she's like, "I never really saw any shovels. I never really
00:33:01
saw anything." Now that could just be that she just didn't see anything or wasn't paying
00:33:06
attention or maybe there wasn't anything there. And if there's nothing there, then we got to start questioning some
00:33:13
other stuff. Is he just making this up completely? Like he was Jay was charged with all
00:33:20
these things throughout the years and most of them being dismissed. And it's like what is what is he telling
00:33:27
these people? So one of the things I wanted to bring up later is when you're questioning Jay,
00:33:34
what I always felt interesting was this information if if Jen is telling the truth, this information
00:33:44
that Jen heard started the day Hae went missing. The day that the cops think the murder
00:33:50
took place. Right. So Jay would have had to come up with this all on his own that day.
00:34:02
Hae's missing. Or or is Jay involved in some other way? Did Jay do this all by himself?
00:34:10
And then he's just trying to lump Adnan into this. But either way, Jen first hears the story the day Hae
00:34:18
goes missing. Mhm. And yes, makes her kind of a piece of [ __ ] for not coming forward and saying, "Hey, look, this
00:34:24
girl's missing." And maybe if she didn't believe Jay at first, okay, you don't say anything, but once they find the
00:34:29
body, you probably should call a lawyer and and go give them the information you want.
00:34:36
Do we know for certain that she knew that they found the body? Cuz the only reason why I throw that out
00:34:42
there is we know she didn't know Hae Min Lee, right? Right, but I think the thing is
00:34:49
with this case you're never going to know the full truth when it comes to Jen, when it
00:34:55
comes to Jay. I just don't think you're ever going to get the full truth. Right, but I
00:35:00
I'm just throwing this out there. If if she didn't know the victim, and she hears this story from Jay, who
00:35:10
she has straightforward said, you know, this is a guy that I believe has told me stories throughout the our time
00:35:19
together. And I mean, really, she may have just thought it was some kind of story. You
00:35:25
know, if I if I if I were to say to you, if you picked me up from somewhere and and later I'm telling you an explanation
00:35:33
of why I was where I you picked me up at or or what I had been doing beforehand,
00:35:39
and I say Anthony Scalucci or you know, some name you've never heard of before. Uh this is what happened, and I was
00:35:48
involved in this and this. You you might just you might just go, "Ah, this might be some other this might
00:35:54
just be a story. I've never heard of that person. That person is lying." tall tale.
00:35:57
I've Yeah, especially if we don't know a lot about there. We know that Jen and Jay were tight,
00:36:04
but Weed-smoking buddies, is what they say. Right. And we So, we don't know this may
00:36:08
this may in fact be Hae Min Lee's name may have never been mentioned to her to Jen ever before this night. You know, or
00:36:17
ever before this time. Right. And you know, that would be a bit of a weird thing. I'm with you. I mean, of course,
00:36:23
that's how we feel on everything and every case. If you know something, you should come forward to the police.
00:36:30
Um But uh yeah, but like you said, look into it from her standpoints and then standpoint, then you start going, "Okay,
00:36:36
I could see why maybe you would hesitate." No, and you got a friend that's a liar.
00:36:42
So, uh that's odd. You know, this Chris uh Flohr, which was um one of Adnan's lawyers, he's the guy with the amazing
00:36:51
um Michael Bolton hair. Mhm. Um the fact that Adnan said, "Hey, look, I would like a lawyer."
00:36:58
And they denied him, you know, access to a lawyer. That he didn't even know he had a lawyer at the
00:37:05
time. Well, is is that true that they denied him a a lawyer? Well, that's That is
00:37:12
what Adnan's saying and that's also what this Chris Chris Flohr is saying. Well, I think what Chris was saying was,
00:37:19
"I was sent by his family and I told police, 'Hey, you need to stop the questioning right now.'" And the police
00:37:26
reaction to him was, "Well, Adnan's not asked for an attorney at this point." Right. And so, they've they've not
00:37:34
necessarily denied him uh counsel if he if he if he's not asked for counsel. Right. But when you have Adnan saying,
00:37:46
"I asked for counsel and they denied it." And then you have his attorney saying, "Hey, look, this is like one of
00:37:51
the rare times I've ever been turned away like this." Mhm. It's more likely I'm going to go with, you know, two
00:37:57
people with the same story that's pretty tight. I mean, you know, they wanted a judge
00:38:04
they wanted the court of law to believe um Jen's story and Jay's story that don't
00:38:10
even line up. So, I'm going to believe a lawyer's story and a and and then the suspect's
00:38:16
story for whatever reason. And and that again is a red flag. So, is that is that
00:38:25
is that deserving of a new trial? Just by that alone. I I don't know the I mean, I know if you're denied
00:38:35
an attorney and you ask for one that you that should that should give you a new trial 100% of the time.
00:38:42
I don't know according to what possibly went down if that falls into the parameters of that. Now, and look,
00:38:52
so many Which I which what I mean by that straight up is just if Adnan never asked
00:38:57
for an attorney. Right. Then they technically did not deny him one. I don't know the way that the rule works
00:39:03
if the attorney shows up on your behalf and you don't even know who they are or don't know that they're there
00:39:10
uh and they get turned away. I don't know how that you know, would work out. The difficult
00:39:16
thing too with that whole situation where you think that as law enforcement, we might want to err
00:39:24
on the side of caution here and we got this guy with this beautiful Michael Bolton hair out in the lobby and he's
00:39:30
saying, "Hey, I'm here to represent live without Adnan Syed?" Yeah. You would think if you were if you
00:39:38
wanted to you know, cuz we see this on on TV from time to time like on Law & Order where
00:39:43
the the police were they're they're doing they're doing what they believe is right in the moment because they're
00:39:49
they're forced to do such a tough job and sometimes the cards are stacked against them and okay, so this is TV
00:39:56
drama and we're going to well, we're going to maybe let one of these rules kind of not really apply in this very
00:40:02
moment because we know this is our guy. Um and then you you have the scene later
00:40:09
where the prosecutor or there's some argument between the detectives and the prosecutor uh because oh, it's getting
00:40:15
thrown out. It's getting thrown out now or we can't use that in court because of
00:40:19
this and this and this. Um, you would think though if if police in this situation really wanted to err
00:40:27
on the side of caution, cuz I firmly I absolutely believe that the attorney showed up that was hired by Adnan's
00:40:34
family and was turned away. I believe that happened. But, I don't know what the rules are on that specific situation
00:40:41
had Adnan not asked for him. The difficult thing here is you would think the detectives would go
00:40:48
Right, but let's back up a little They would go for letting an attorney in the room because it's hired by a family
00:40:54
his family and he's 17 years old. Right, that's I think that's a big thing that's missing in this case a lot when
00:41:00
people look at it is he's 17 years old. Yes, he's charged as a adult but let's not forget he's 17 years old. So, how he
00:41:08
acts and you know, it it's a mature thing to say, "Hey, I need to talk to a lawyer." So, but somebody
00:41:16
could also say, "Well, that sounds guilty to me." You know, um I don't think so. I think I
00:41:22
think once he realized how serious it was I think he knew that he had to get somebody else involved. Well, and he
00:41:29
think he asked and they denied it. You can be these two things at the same time. You
00:41:35
can be scared and innocent. Yes. And let's pretend that we know for certain that Adnan was innocent. I don't think I
00:41:45
would have any reason to believe that he wouldn't have been scared. He's 17 and that's the whole that's the whole thing
00:41:51
about how do you get rid of a high? There's been a lot of people that have suggested that that implies some kind of
00:41:57
guilt that he's like, "Oh, [ __ ] I got to be on I got to bring my A game because I'm going to be questioned and I
00:42:02
might not want to you know, I want to choose my words carefully but I can't now because I'm I got high with these
00:42:07
fools." Right. And I actually think that there's there's as many reasons that you could point to
00:42:14
that as being a statement of guilt of of being some kind of uh Freudian slip of of his guilt
00:42:22
that it could also be very much just a scared teenager who's like crap, I'm high and now I'm
00:42:31
going to have to talk to police. Yeah. I I think I think you could be innocent of murder
00:42:37
and high and 17 years old and still afraid that you're going to have to talk to a police officer. Yeah, well, cuz
00:42:43
it's a drug that makes people paranoid. So, I think that's one. I think even if you were a 17-year-old drunk person
00:42:50
would be I You know what I mean? It's you're doing you already know going into the situation regardless of what they're
00:42:56
going to ask you, you have done something wrong and it may have nothing to do with murder or a missing girl.
00:43:02
Yeah. Uh the other thing that stuck out to me was the students how they got together and they went to the
00:43:10
principal and they were demanding to talk to the the cops. Mhm. Because these are individuals that took
00:43:18
time to talk to different detectives when uh Hae was missing and now that it's this this murder this is homicide,
00:43:26
they went going hey, no, this is too far. We got to protect this person. We know him. Our gut feeling.
00:43:33
And that's that's a big a sign of character. Because if you're on the fence about it, there's no way
00:43:40
you're going to the principal going, we need to talk to authorities. Right. The other thing that I think is um
00:43:50
is interesting about that is um how a lot of the misinformation, hey, they have DNA. Or these parents
00:44:00
saying, yes, this kid was arrested. Yes, we we know that you think he didn't do it.
00:44:07
but come on, he probably did. And I think it's that kind of thinking that we need to dismiss in this country. Mhm. I
00:44:14
mean, it's just not getting us to the truth. Our goal should always be to get to the truth, not to get a conviction,
00:44:20
but to get to the truth. Um another thing that I thought was very like, you know, sirens going off, was
00:44:29
when they say, "Hey, there's 20 bodies found in this wooded area." The same wooded area that Hae Min Lee's body was
00:44:35
found in. And this was known as the city's graveyard. So, Over the course of how long? Um
00:44:44
It It's It's I I don't know, maybe a 10-year Oh, you're right. I was going to say it's an
00:44:49
extensive period of time, if I remember correctly, from Right, but 20 bodies is a lot. Yeah.
00:44:54
And so, now we have this idea that maybe she didn't maybe she didn't The The whole thing has always been, did
00:45:02
she give Adnan a ride? Cuz if she did, he's probably the killer. If she didn't give
00:45:07
him a ride, and she met up with her boyfriend, Don, then he's probably the killer. But one of the things that I've
00:45:12
always thought needs to be looked at is yeah, a serial killer, or a killer, or, you know,
00:45:20
opportunist. Um I think that's very possible. And And to me, the where she was buried,
00:45:31
and that being a common place for people of that city to bury somebody, or put somebody after a murder,
00:45:40
it leans towards that idea. Po- Possibly, but I mean, it's it's also not terribly uncommon for for
00:45:50
someone who is not equipped to deal with something that they just did, to react Right. I agree.
00:45:59
and and and, you know, place a body where they've heard in the news or or have heard from friends that oh, they
00:46:05
found another body out in Lincoln Park. Right. You know, um The The interesting thing there is the burial with when you
00:46:15
when you dig when someone digs a grave and I've I believe firmly and in in fact know this to be a a very true statement,
00:46:24
not 100% of the time but 100% a good amount of the time I would guarantee you that a seasoned detective
00:46:32
would say that that action, the action of digging a grave and placing somebody there and covering them up suggests that
00:46:40
the offender would be someone close to the victim. Right. That That someone on their inner circle
00:46:46
at some level because if it was a a lot of times when you have a stranger on stranger attack and murder
00:46:54
a lot of times they won't even place the body very deep into the woods. You know,
00:46:59
because they're they're not running from as much as the person that kills the victim that's on the inner circle.
00:47:06
Because it the if you don't ever find that victim well, then there's a that really helps
00:47:14
the people close to that victim. If it if in fact the offender was very close to the victim. Right.
00:47:21
Yeah, I mean, the more I watch this the more confusing I probably after I watched it I had my buddy Morgan
00:47:30
come over and we're working on some exciting project that we have in the works. We finally
00:47:36
started on it for a True Crime Garage project. We also have another project that we started uh that got kicked off.
00:47:46
You got something sent to you in the mail. Mhm. I won't go into it too much, but
00:47:50
there's two things that are a part of the garage, let's say. They will be a part of the garage,
00:47:57
but But projects outside the normal show that we're working on. So, he comes over, watches it. We we we watch it. We
00:48:02
kind of dissect some of the stuff that didn't make any sense. Again, the the amount of
00:48:09
the amount of charges uh on Jay's uh rap sheet is just a lot. Uh ridiculous. And
00:48:21
one of the things that I thought was multiple red flags is when they're going over the evidence that they didn't find.
00:48:29
They want to talk about these gloves that Jay claims Adnan had. Well, it's one guy claiming them. So, if
00:48:36
you think this is a big aha moment that we have a red fabric which her uniform her field hockey uniform was made out of
00:48:44
a red fabric. That if that's a big aha moment for the cops, then why didn't they get pictures
00:48:50
of Adnan with these gloves on? Or get eyewitnesses that say, "Hey, I saw Adnan wear gloves like these." These were red
00:48:59
wool gloves with leather palm prints Mhm. whatever you want to call them. So, if
00:49:05
that was a big aha moment, why didn't he do anything about it? On top of that, we
00:49:09
have a thumb print. You know, they they believe that the attack happened in her car.
00:49:17
And the murder took place in her car. If that was true, we got a big thumb print
00:49:22
that did not match Adnan and did not match Jay. Mhm. So, who does it match? Why didn't we go
00:49:29
after this? Why don't we Why don't we know that answer? And then we have DNA underneath her fingernails and and I
00:49:35
think other points of DNA. Why aren't we testing these? You know, it's it's that simple. It's
00:49:41
almost like they got this idiot to confess. We don't know if his story is or true.
00:49:47
Uh they kind of line up, but they don't with some other person that that he knows. Uh both drug users, and we're
00:49:54
going to put them on the stands. They're not even going to line up with each other, and we're going to get conviction
00:49:59
out of this. Mhm. I mean, it's so surprising that they did, really. Um but I think that's another point of
00:50:09
you know, evidence of why there should be another trial. Well, you you need your when you're
00:50:16
sitting there at the defendant's table and you're on trial, you really need your defense to come to
00:50:23
bat for you. And if if your defense team sees something on the victim, it's it's difficult
00:50:33
because if you if you're absolutely innocent, you should be screaming the the reaction you should be having is not
00:50:41
in the courtroom, like we talked about earlier. Right. It's behind closed doors in front of
00:50:47
your defense attorney saying, "I'm absolutely innocent. They need to test you know, please test something. What
00:50:54
what is there anything out there that they didn't test that we can test?" Um because
00:51:00
there there's two there's two problems, well, one problem, but a problem from a different angle for
00:51:07
both sides. If you're the prosecutor, if you have a guy that's saying, "Look, I helped
00:51:14
dispose of the body. The the person on trial told me they killed her. Right. And I can point to A, B, C,
00:51:22
and D why he did what he said he did. And then you have another person backing up portions of that story saying, "Yeah,
00:51:31
he told me that that that Adnan killed this girl." Right. And all you need for if you're the prosecutor is for at
00:51:40
trial for them to believe Jay's story. That's all you need. Right. You don't you don't necessarily need
00:51:50
the DNA evidence underneath her fingernails to convict them if you can get them to believe his story. If you
00:51:56
can get get them to believe that he's telling the truth and we can prove that he's telling the truth because he
00:52:02
knew where the car was and that's kind of what their general approach was. So then you go, all right, well, we have
00:52:10
this other stuff. We're not going to test it because what if what if we're wrong? They it it it doesn't build our
00:52:18
case. I know, but that's what frustrates me. It's like we're we're going after convictions and
00:52:23
not going after the truth. Well, no, I get that. I get that, but the other thing though too is
00:52:30
you can also have a victim who doesn't have the DNA of the offender underneath their fingernails. Right. So that can
00:52:38
happen that can happen too. It's almost if you're the prosecution, it's almost like you have no reason to to to test
00:52:46
the DNA. But that but the defense could have pushed to have that tested. Well, that's what I mean. The defense
00:52:51
could have. The defense could have and probably should have and that's why if you are in fact the defendant and you
00:52:58
are innocent look, I know it's tough when you when you're sitting in that chair, but you
00:53:03
got to confer you got to talk with your defense attorney and figure out what there is out there that can they can
00:53:09
test because on the defense side now if you're the defense attorney and you're not
00:53:16
you're not completely certain that your client is 100% innocent, you may not want to test the DNA underneath those
00:53:24
fingernails as well. Right. But if you are the living breathing person that was that's on
00:53:29
trial and you know you are innocent, then you you have nothing to to lose by this because if the DNA is tested and as
00:53:38
I said, it it there There cases out there where the victim does not have any of the offender's DNA on them. It It It
00:53:46
does happen. But, you can at least point to that as a possible sign of reasonable doubt.
00:53:55
Right. Yes, I mean, so now that we're halfway through this, are you any closer to
00:54:05
an idea of what you think happened? Because a lot of times with documentaries, you know, after
00:54:15
after uh you know, episode one in a six-part series, like by the by the third episode, you start going,
00:54:22
"Yeah." I kind of I kind of get a better picture of what happened. Are you any closer to a better picture?
00:54:33
No. Um Cuz I And I agree with you, either am I, but that's where I think that's what makes this documentary
00:54:42
pretty interesting, because I don't know what side the documentary's on. I You know, I've since the the
00:54:51
completion of Serial season one podcast, you know, when listening to it through the first time, I was trying not to make
00:54:59
not to pick a side or to even pick uh okay, here's what I think happened. You know, not even to create a theory.
00:55:08
Right. But, after I finished it, um my general thoughts on on the the whole case is that either Adnan
00:55:16
killed her as as the, you know, as the court system, as the detectives, as Jay has all said, or that Jay killed
00:55:25
her. And I I still you know, there there are some other possible avenues, but I I feel like with
00:55:33
what information has been presented, whether you choose to believe if it's true or not.
00:55:40
My feeling is that one of those two individuals killed her or they both killed her together.
00:55:45
And the the problem that I keep going back to and that I that I still have even more so now having seen the first
00:55:52
two episodes is Okay, let's let's pretend for just for the sake of this argument. Mhm.
00:56:01
That Jay is telling the truth about one simple thing. That Adnan did kill Hae Min Lee. Well, right. And let me just
00:56:08
stop you there. If Well, What What the So, I don't get to finish my argument for the sake of
00:56:12
this argument? No, no, no. I want to I want to point out because we've had this conversation.
00:56:16
I want to point out that after Serial, after everything, when they have talked to Jay,
00:56:23
Jay has stated, "Maybe you don't believe my story. Maybe parts of my story changed, but it will
00:56:30
never change the fact of what I saw that day in that trunk." And you know what I mean? You know what I mean?
00:56:36
Right. So, like So, what you're saying is he lied about everything or could have, but as long as he's
00:56:43
telling the truth about this. Okay, continue. Well, what I what I mean is what I can't
00:56:51
figure out and what I'll never be able to figure out is let's pretend that he is absolutely
00:56:57
truthful in his statement that Adnan killed Hae Min Lee. Then why lie about any part of the story?
00:57:06
That's That's the troubling thing. That's the troubling thing and that's just a liar. You're just naturally a
00:57:12
liar. get that and that's why I pointed out that sometimes it doesn't make any sense
00:57:15
and maybe he doesn't Maybe he's living in an in alternative reality because of his own lies throughout the years.
00:57:23
Right. But it it just I For me to have a to definitively believe that Adnan did it and Jay did not or did not assist in
00:57:33
the murder. I mean, other than what he's saying he assisted in. What What I'm getting at is I can't get
00:57:39
over the fact that I know he is lying about some of these portions of the story. Right.
00:57:45
Why would he lie at all when he needs the police to believe him? That That he This is what I saw. This is
00:57:53
the This is what I participated in, but I didn't kill her. This guy did. Right. And
00:57:59
and here's where it gets weirder is when they know that Jen's going to be talked
00:58:04
to by the police and and Jay says, "Say whatever you need to say, but, you know, be careful and protect yourself."
00:58:12
And so, even Jen has said, "I picked him up at the mall." For some reason, Jay keeps saying that
00:58:21
"I picked him up at his house." Why is he saying that? What is he trying to protect? Mhm. What is you know, he's
00:58:30
doing it for a reason. And so, that's weird because they know him. So, to them he's lying for a
00:58:36
reason. And there's a part of me cuz I don't know him, I go, "Well, yeah, some of the
00:58:42
stuff he's probably lying for a reason, you know, to make himself look less guilty." I mean, there's no wonder that,
00:58:48
you know, his story has changed and course he got more involved. You know, he went
00:58:54
from "I just was there. I just drove there. I just saw the body." To Mhm. "Oh, we used my shovels
00:59:03
and I helped dig the hole." Mhm. So, yes, here's what we do know. We know he's a liar. But, what is he lying
00:59:13
about? And is there any truth to what he's saying? Or is this all completely made up? And what what is tough for me
00:59:21
to think that it's all made up is if if this story just started coming out December 26th or December 27th or
00:59:33
December 28th or February I mean February 26th 27th 28th Maybe I go hey he's probably completely
00:59:42
full [ __ ] But the fact that he then this is what now Jen could be a liar too but what she's stating
00:59:52
is this information was given to her on the 13th of January. On that night. And that makes it seem like
00:59:59
but then I also just wonder does this dude have some mental issues? Is he I mean we have this rap sheet
01:00:08
that's super long. He's just not getting charged you know he's he's basically doing a crime and never
01:00:16
getting convicted of it. He's getting charged with a crime and then he'll get convicted of it. He gets convicted of
01:00:21
somethings but it's just like does this guy have some kind of mental thing that's going on or again did he do
01:00:27
something to Hae Min Lee and he's now you know uh and he started covering his tracks on
01:00:37
the 13th. Mhm. Uh but I feel like somebody that knows a lot about this case and had some strong opinions
01:00:46
and strong thoughts that it's like after these two episodes I'm I'm I'm one way back into the case way too
01:00:55
deep spending too many hours looking this stuff up and I'm more confused than ever.
01:01:02
I am more confused than ever. Cuz um it just nothing seems to line up. Hey.