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Heat up >> [music] >> here. >> [music] [music] >> Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever
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you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always is a man that just got
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back from having lunch with Richard Simmons. He is the captain. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For some of us,
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it's good to be seen and it's [music] good to see you. How's our good friend Old Richard doing? Well, he's not happy
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with you. [music] Let the river run red, Captain. Tonight, we are drinking the Huntsman Red Ale by
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Barley Mo Brewing Company. Garage grade four and a quarter bottle caps out of five. M. This is an Imperial double red
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ale that is not only hoppy and malty, but also smooth and sweet and has a very beautiful red color and is brought to us
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by these fantastic people. First up, a big thank you to Michelle down in Clearwater, Florida. M like Next up in
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right, that's enough of the business. Everybody gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.
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[music] >> [music] [music] >> This is True Crime Garage. [music] >> And this is the case of the boys on the
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tracks. [music] >> [music] [music] >> By all accounts, [music] the engineer did a masterful job of bringing his
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train to a stop. It had taken a screaming, [music] screeching half mile. By the time the engine had shuttered to
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a standstill, conductor Jerry Tomlin was on the radio notifying an approaching [music] train on a parallel track to
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stop because some boys had been run over. He had [music] also called the dispatcher.
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"Have you got injuries?" the dispatcher asked. No. Tomlin said, "We've [music] got
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death. We got death. I'm sure we've got death. They passed under us. It has to be death.
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It has It has [music] to be death. It has It [music] has to be death. [music] 4:00 a.m. August 23rd, 1987.
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This is a Sunday in Arkansas. There's a train traveling north from Tex Arcana. This train is about a mile long, pulling
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mostly freight, but some empty cars as well. The train's headlight is set to the bright position. The crew would
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later say that it was particularly dark that night. The train's engineer, this is Steven Shyer, and the conductor,
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Jerry Tomlin, notice a dark spot on the tracks. Now, any debris on the tracks, of course, is a big concern. They can
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see a flash of light from this dark spot. The train's headlights beam, it must have hit something metal or
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something that reflected the light back to them. When the train was approximately a hundred feet away from
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the dark spot, engineer Shawyer yelled out, "Oh my god," and he hit the whistle and the emergency brake at the same
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time. This is because they could tell that there were two young men laying on the tracks between the rails. They could
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also tell that there was a gun lying next to them. >> They could tell that there was something
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covering the boys from their waist to their knees. Both boys were between the rails with their heads up against the
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west rail and their feet over the east rail. Both were right beside each other and their arms and hands were at their
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sides, their heads facing straight up and they didn't move at all. >> The train was traveling approximately 55
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m an hour. >> This would only give the crew just seconds to respond before running over
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the boys. As we had said, they hit the emergency brake, but with the weight and the speed of the train, this is going to
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take some time to bring this metal monster to a stop. >> As they are breaking, the steel wheels
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are they're screaming on the steel tracks. The train cars vibrate. The tracks begin to vibrate as well. The
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whistles blowing and still the boys do not jerk. They do not flinch. They do not move a muscle. Now, Shawyer couldn't
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tell what the object was that was covering the boys, but the other two men on the train, Tomlin and this other guy,
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his last name is Delmare, both said that this item that was covering the boys from waist to knee was a tarp, a a pale
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green tarp. I believe one of the men actually said that it looked like a boat cover. Um, and they stated that the gun
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was clearly a rifle. The barrel was near one of the boys's head and the stock was
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mostly underneath the tarp. The men watched as the bodies disappeared under the train. The men heard the train hit
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the boys. One of the men explained that what he was used to on occasion, the train would hit a dog. And he said that
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you would hear like a thud and then you would hear rocks flying because if it was something that was under the train,
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then the train was scooting the object along with the boys and with the gun. The men felt the impact and they said it
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was very one, two, three. You could you could feel the hit of the first boy, second boy, and then the gun. It's hard
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to imagine what's going through these guys' heads as they're hitting the bodies.
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>> Yeah, it's I mean it's a complete nightmare. When the train hits an object, uh one of two things usually
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happen. So there is a scoop on the front of this train that the men called a cow
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catcher. I believe this is a commonly used term. So either the cow catcher will hit the item and toss the object
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violently aside or get sucked up under the train. >> Right? And this is what happened here.
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>> And the two boys' legs were laying on the track. So what happened was the feet
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were actually severed by the train. >> Yes. Severed from the legs and the heads and the torsos were between the tracks.
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So the train would have cleared the bodies and then rolled them under the train. Uh this is what the three men on
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board had heard. So armed with flashlights, the men get off of the train and they went looking for what
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they had hit. About 35 cars back, they located the first of many pieces that they would find.
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>> Right. Train cars. >> Yeah. They they spotted some dismembered toes. The biggest body part that they
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found was the chest and head of the second boy. The first boy was he was much more chopped up. The police had
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started to arrive on the scene. Um, and they basically found parts of the gun and the bodies scattered along a quarter
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mile of the tracks. >> Mhm. >> One thing the crew members noticed very quickly was that there was a lot less
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blood than any of them had expected to see. >> And the blood that they did see and find
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it was dark. It wasn't it wasn't red. It was a purplish color. And like you said,
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they have experience with, you know, hitting the train, the train hitting a dog or a cow or a deer or something of
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that nature. >> Yeah. And and in this area of the country, too, these are guys that were
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familiar with hunting. Um so they they knew kind of what to expect. Unfortunately, in this situation, that's
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why they were so freaked out was they knew what they were expecting to see and they were terrified going back there
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looking for that. Well, yeah, cuz it's on a whole different level. I mean, it's one thing to hit a deer, but to hit two
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teenage boys. >> Mhm. The police were there at 4:40 a.m. This is just about 13 minutes after the
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crew had reported the incident. >> Mhm. >> This fell to the jurisdiction of the Saline County Sheriff's Office. On the
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scene, we have Deputy Chuck Talent and Lieutenant Ray Richmond, who was the head of the department's criminal
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investigation division. After checking out the scene, the officers decided that they were investigating either an
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accident or a suicide. >> The crew working the train immediately disagreed with the officers. They knew
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that, of course, accidents certainly do happen around trains, and suicides do as
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well. But the troubling thing here is that the men saw neither boy move at all. >> Right? If if it were a suicide, they
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said they might be able to be talked into agreeing that one person could brave through the terrifying situation
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of the train approaching them, but none of the men would agree that two people could lay there and not flinch or not
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move a muscle as the train got closer and closer. >> Right. Which I I think I agree with them
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on. Uh I just think that's a really hard thing to even speculate. >> Mhm. Also at the scene was state trooper
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Wayne Lanhart of the Arkansas State Police. >> Now Lanheart was concerned by what he
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saw at the scene, but let's keep in mind he this is not his jurisdiction, >> right?
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>> Uh this is the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office, so he is at their mercy.
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>> So I'm assuming that it was the call was made and he was just in close proximity.
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So he then showed up to see if they need any assistance. >> Yeah. Everybody was responding to this
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call. So this is not his case. He is pretty much just a spectator at this point, but the thing that bothered him
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the most was the sheriff deputy's disinterest in the possibility of a murder. According to Lannard's training,
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any unnatural death should be investigative first as a possible homicide so evidence can be preserved
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and the most serious possibilities eliminated before less serious ones are considered. Leard, after having talked
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with the crew members, told the deputies that he doubted the deaths were an accident.
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>> Right. >> Another cause for concern was the observations made by the emergency
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medical technicians arriving on the scene. >> Right. The EMTs. >> Yeah. They both said that the bodies
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looked more like mannequins because there was so little blood. And at the impact site, the blood that they found
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was really dark in color, more a purple than a red. >> They didn't see any bright blood. And
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this led them to believe that the blood that they were seeing was not fresh. Who
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were the two boys on the tracks that night? And why were they there? >> The boys were 17-year-old Kevin Ives and
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16-year-old Don Henry. And I know it's 1987 and there wasn't a lot of law enforcement didn't crack down on curfew
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as often, >> but what is a 16 and 17year-old boy doing out by these train tracks? I mean,
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it's Saturday. They they're hanging out Saturday and then this happens at 4 a.m.
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on Sunday. >> Yeah. >> So, it was the weekend. >> Yep. Well, this is a rural area. Um, so,
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uh, you don't see curfews really enforced a whole lot out in these parts. Um, but basically the boys were staying
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the night at Don Henry's home. >> Uh, and they they got there around 12:15 a.m. Uh, Don lives with his parents,
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Curtis and his stepmother, Marvel Henry. Now, the two were supposed to be staying
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the night at Don's house. They had known each other about 6 months. Uh they had become quick friends, hanging out
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together very often. Uh this was the summertime, nearing the start of another school year, so they were, you know, the
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two of them were trying to make the most of their summer, what what they had left,
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>> right? >> Uh Kevin had stayed at Dawn's place once or twice before, but Kevin's mother,
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Linda, was not real excited about Kevin staying there that night. Uh, in fact, she had originally said no to the
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request because last time he had stayed there, she didn't approve of what went down. On that occasion, Don's father had
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called Linda the morning after and asked if the boys were at her house, >> right?
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>> And she says she says, "No, you know, they they were supposed to be at at your
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place. I don't I don't know what happened here." >> Right? So, they did a switcheroo. Well,
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what what it turns out that what happened was that uh at some point Don had got in an argument with his father
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Curtis. >> Uh and then then after the argument, the two boys went and decided to stay at
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another friend's house that night. Um so Curtis maybe thought that they went back
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to Kevin's and it turns out that that was not not the case. >> Well, it's very embarrassing when you
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have a friend over and you get an argument with your parents. >> Mhm. That's always like you're like,
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"Oh, I'm I'm really sorry that my mom's being a big old bee right now." >> Well, I'm sure Kevin's parents would
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have wished that they would have returned to to their place rather than just going to this Yeah. this unscripted
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place that they ended up. Um, so of course, Linda was reluctant to let Kevin go over there on this occasion, but you
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know how it goes. Teenagers talk their parents into things. Uh, so on that night, the two had been hanging out with
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some friends. Uh they were told to be home by midnight or 12:30 at the latest. So once they were back at Dawn's place,
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they had asked Don's father, Curtis, if they could go out hunting. Uh this is spotlighting, which is an illegal form
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of hunting. Plus, I wouldn't think that anything would be in season at that time
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of year. Now, Don was an avid hunter, so he was, you know, this activity sounds a
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bit strange to me. Uh, but I get the impression that this could have been a common thing here for him.
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>> Uh, plus it doesn't sound to me as if Don's parents or at least Don's father Curtis was the strictest of parents,
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>> right? Well, and some people remember what their childhood was like when when
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it's summertime and they think, you know, some parents get a little more loose and in the summertime and I I
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think that's okay. Well, I used to be a, you know, have to be in by a certain time, but in the summertime a lot of
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times my parents would let me pitch a tent in the backyard, you know, and have somebody stay over. So, really, I wasn't
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totally under their watchful eye. Um, but spotlighting is where you go out with flashlights and a gun and when you
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come across some unfortunate animal, and I don't know what they were hunting for,
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uh, or maybe if they were just looking for any type of creature out there. Um, but basically, you you shine your
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flashlight on the animal and the light beam will pretty much lock up the animal like the old saying, freeze up like a
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deer in the headlights. Well, this makes the animal a very easy target. So they ask Curtis if they can go out
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spotlighting and he says yes. And that is the last time that the boys are known to be seen alive.
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>> Yeah. Last time that they're known to be seen alive by any parents or close family members. Mhm.
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>> This story which has not been covered often has so many twists and turns and I
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dare say maybe one of the most interesting cases, most fascinating cases with as many twist that you will
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ever hear in a case. >> Yeah, it it it's crazy. It starts off as a small town case and it could be I mean
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it could be huge. >> Well, it starts out as as a small town case that people think it's an accident
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or suicide. Mhm. The next morning, Curtis, the father, he gets up around 5:00 a.m. and he wakes up his wife,
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Marvel, saying that that Dawn should have been home by now, but wasn't. And he tells her that he really thinks that
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something is wrong here. >> Curtis goes out looking for the boys. He knew where the boys were going to go
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hunt. Uh so he headed to the woods near the train tracks. He's out driving around looking for Don and Kevin. And
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while he's out there, he passes a uh deputy. >> Mhm. >> And he slows down and he stops and he
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asks the deputy if they had seen two teenagers out there running around. The deputy asked who the man was looking
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for. And Curtis, knowing that the boys were out hunting illegally, he decided that he didn't want to name any names,
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>> right? >> You know, um so Curtis is going to continue on looking for the boys. The
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officer also didn't say that they had found two boys on the train tracks when when Curtis had stopped to talk to him.
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>> Right. >> After driving around for a few hours, Curtis went home and he called Linda and
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he asked her if the boys were at her place. And of course, now she's thinking, "Oh, no, not again. This
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happened last time. And why the hell can't this other parent keep the kids at his house,
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>> right?" >> Uh she asked if there was an argument. Uh he says no, there was nothing like
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that. That the boys had simply went out hunting and they must have stayed out all night. Uh he told Linda not to worry
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because Dawn had hunted often. Uh he was very responsible with a firearm and he knew the woods better than anyone.
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>> Mhm. >> Linda was beginning to get quite worried about Kevin though. >> Well, and like we said, we're 16 and 17
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year old and you have your little stomping grounds. So, it seems like Don, one of Don's stomping grounds was these
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woods. And you know, and and back when I was uh probably, you know, elementary school and middle school, there was
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woods by my house. And if you took a you know, if a parent came back looking for
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a kid, they couldn't find their way around, >> right? >> But but >> but the kids knew how to get through
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every inch of that woods. Around noon, the phone rang again, and it was Curtis. Uh Linda could tell by his voice that
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this call was much different than the last call. He says, "Get over here quick. They've been shot and tied to the
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railroad tracks and they've been run over by the train." Now, this might sound a little weird here, but Linda, of
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course, she she's in shock by what she has just heard. >> Yeah, obviously. >> But she she says that she was actually
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somewhat relieved once she had a chance to kind of process what Curtis had said.
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Uh, Linda was worried that the boys could have been in a car wreck. You know, they were both young drivers at
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this time. They both owned fast cars. Don had a Firebird and Kevin had a Camaro, right?
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>> Uh, >> 1987. >> But yeah, but she said what Curtis had told her sounded so absurd that it
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couldn't have possibly happened, that it couldn't be the truth. >> Right. Right.
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>> So, Linda drives over to Curtis Curtis Henry's home. When she pulled up to the
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place, she sees Kevin's car at the end of the driveway, and this makes her feel very good. Uh she's immediately thinking
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that Kevin had returned to the Henry's and nobody was in a car wreck, and you know, all is good again,
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>> right? Maybe maybe something happened and maybe they were on these tracks, but
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they're okay now. >> Mhm. Well, that feeling quickly left her. As she's getting out of the car, a
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deputy, this is Deputy Talent, came out from the house and he asked her to come inside.
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>> So, we go here from from a lot of relief to very worried. Curtis, right in front
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of the officer, tells Linda that a neighbor had told him that the boys had been shot. They had been tied to the
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tracks and they've been run over by the train. Now, the police officer, he states that the boys, yes, there there
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had been two boys that had been run over by a train. Now, these boys had not been
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positively identified yet, >> and they were going to be checking dental records at the crime lab to
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figure out who these boys were, >> right? But you have no whereabouts of your two of these two teenage boys.
00:22:01
>> Mhm. >> That you know that they went out at night. You know what area they went at.
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>> Yeah. You know, they went in the woods down by the train tracks, >> right? And you now and they didn't come
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home and their vehicles are at your house. >> Mhm. >> So, this is this is very troublesome.
00:22:18
Well, Deputy Talent, he asked Linda for a description of what Kevin was wearing the last time that she had seen him. Um,
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she describes this and he does say that that fit with the items that they had found at the tracks. Um, what led the
00:22:34
officers to Curtis Henry's door? They had found a camouflaged baseball cap with the with a Little Rock electric
00:22:43
logo on it. This is the electric company in the area. >> Right >> now, Curtis was a superintendent with
00:22:50
that company and Dawn had had one of those hats, right? >> Don wanted to become an electrician uh
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just like his father after graduating from high school. And that summer he had actually kind of taken Don under his
00:23:04
wing a little bit and would bring him into work with him and you know kind of show him the ropes a little bit to see
00:23:10
if this was something he actually wanted to do after graduating high school. So unfortunately this is a this is a hat
00:23:17
that he knew that Don would have been wearing that night. >> Right. So the writing is pretty much on
00:23:22
the wall. >> Yeah. And unfortunately, the boys would soon later be positively identified as
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the two boys who had been run over by the train that night. >> Right. That being Don Henry and Kevin
00:23:34
Ives. >> Now, there are still plenty of more weird things about that night that we
00:23:38
haven't even got to yet. >> Mhm. Uh the first strange thing here is remember that at the beginning of the
00:23:45
show we had said that the train's conductor had called another train that was passing on a parallel track and he
00:23:52
called them telling them to stop because they had just run over some boys. Uh well once the officers had arrived and
00:24:01
they began scoping out the scene, the sheriff's told the other train that it could then continue on. Well, this is
00:24:08
before collecting some of the remains or looking for potential evidence of a crime here,
00:24:13
>> right? >> You know, nothing stirs up a crime scene area like a giant train passing through,
00:24:18
right? Next, the crew had said that they, and this is all three of the crew members, they all got the same feeling
00:24:28
that the sheriff's office, the the officers that were on the scene, they said that they didn't even believe that
00:24:34
any of them were looking for any clues as to what had happened. First off, they were obviously looking at this thing
00:24:41
like it was an accident or a double suicide. And not only that, but the officers were overheard being told,
00:24:48
"Hey, treat this as a traffic accident." >> Yeah. And and I'm guessing that this
00:24:53
might have been the extent of their expertise. You know, they were probably all familiar with traffic fatalities,
00:25:00
but not very familiar with, you know, a potential double double murder scene and
00:25:06
probably not a scene as complicated as this one. >> Uh this next bit is is extremely strange
00:25:13
in my mind. uh regarding the sheriffs that night. Uh it's like they were trying to pull the old Jedi mind trick
00:25:19
on the train crew. After listening to each of the crew members statements, the deputy and the lieutenant told the crew
00:25:26
members that they had all been mistaken, that there was no tarp covering the boys.
00:25:31
>> Do or do not. There is no track. >> Yeah. They they they simply told the guys that they were confused by how dark
00:25:38
it had been that night and that there was simply no tarp. Um, the next thing that the sheriffs did was confusing too
00:25:46
as well because they also seem to doubt the men's statements that there was a gun present with the boys.
00:25:52
>> Right. And we know from Curtis, from Don's father, that they were out there to hunt.
00:25:58
>> So, makes a lot of sense that there would be a gun beside the boys. >> Right. Right. And we and we know that.
00:26:03
But but the officers at the scene, they don't know any of that information yet. But it's very strange here, Captain. Why
00:26:09
would they when you take the the train crew statements >> Mhm. >> Uh and then you're going to go out and
00:26:15
look at the scene and and unfortunately have this terrible job of collecting things there. Why would you have any
00:26:22
reason to doubt them without walking the scene yet? Why why would you even say that there was no tarp? Why would you
00:26:28
say that there's no gun? Um I don't even know why you would even question that. Wouldn't you just take their statements
00:26:34
and not even make any observations of your own until you've walked the scene? >> Well, and as you're walking the scene,
00:26:40
maybe they're just having a hard time finding these items. So therefore, well, I can't find it, so maybe you are
00:26:46
mistaken. I mean, I I don't think all that stuff is nef, you know, nefarious. I think some of it is just simply, well,
00:26:53
maybe, you know, it was super dark. You have this bright light coming from your train
00:26:58
>> and maybe you didn't see exactly what you think you saw. I I can agree with that. I can agree with that. The train
00:27:04
is traveling very fast. It's very dark out that night. These men are trained though to spot things on the tracks. Um
00:27:11
that is one thing that they do, you know, >> right? But what what a law enforcement
00:27:15
should do is just take the statement >> and if the statement is a little off, that's okay. That is the statement from
00:27:22
that individual, not a statement that you guys made in a joint effort. >> Right. Right. and and don't react to
00:27:29
those statements until you have an opportunity to check out the scene and collect evidence to, you know, because
00:27:34
they're probably walking in there thinking this was an accident or this was a suicide. It's the only things that
00:27:40
seem to make sense here. Um, but it's it's weird that they have this kind of preconceived notion before even really
00:27:48
collecting evidence. >> Yeah. But we see this time and time again with law enforcement. It's you
00:27:53
create a narrative and then you make that evidence fit your narrative instead of collecting the evidence and
00:28:01
collecting the statements and and letting that create your narrative. >> Yeah. And while they're walking the
00:28:07
scene with the crew members, uh they even state several times, you know, where so where is this alleged gun?
00:28:14
Where where is this so-called gun that you guys saw? >> We have law enforcement creating a
00:28:18
narrative. Mhm. >> Now, we need to do an autopsy on these bodies to actually figure out, you know,
00:28:24
that's going to point us in a direction, too. And this is where the first twist in this story takes place. We'll get to
00:28:30
that right after this quick beer break. [music] [music] >> [music] >> All right, we're back. Cheers, mates.
00:28:58
>> Yeah, we have two boys that are found dead on the train tracks and we do have
00:29:03
autopsies that we need to get to, but I real quickly I want to go through a couple more things about that night
00:29:09
before we get to those autopsies. Mhm. >> Uh we had talked about the gun, you know, that the the officers refused to
00:29:16
believe the crew statement that there was a gun present present, that they had seen one.
00:29:20
>> Right. And like we said before, Curtis uh Henry, Don Henry's father said they
00:29:26
went out hunting. >> Mhm. And while they're searching the crime scene, they start referring to
00:29:31
this gun as the alleged gun or the so-called gun. It was not until the sheriff's office had actually recovered
00:29:37
pieces of a shattered 22 rifle with that they would believe that there was even a
00:29:43
gun present. >> Right. >> So, they did recover shattered pieces of a 22 rifle. Uh they there were no
00:29:48
bullets in it at the time. There was no tarp found. Um I could see a tarp just getting ripped to shreds. Uh you know,
00:29:57
if it's covering the boys. >> Well, possibly. But you also have the other train.
00:30:02
>> Mhm. >> That just they let go. >> Mhm. And I could totally see a a tarp being trapped into a a train somehow.
00:30:10
Yeah. You know, it gets pulled along. >> You're exactly right. And and not only that, they're not even looking for a
00:30:16
tarp. They're refusing to believe that it it exists. Right. Right. >> So, as they're collecting evidence, they
00:30:21
they they weren't looking for these things. And these things were scattered for about a quarter mile of track.
00:30:26
>> And there was also other items that were found left at the track as well. Mhm. So
00:30:31
the boys were the train incident took place on a Sunday. Well, Monday morning comes and the deaths are reported in the
00:30:38
news and in the papers. >> So people start going down to the tracks to check out the scene. U one group that
00:30:46
went down there, they found a >> I like to call those people whiskers. >> Whiskers
00:30:50
>> cuz they're curious like a cat. >> Well, these people uh be careful what you wish for. They went down to the
00:30:57
track, this one group, and they found a severed foot in the gravel uh that was missed by the sheriff's department.
00:31:04
>> Right. So, you don't believe that there is a gun. You don't believe that there's
00:31:08
a tarp. You find evidence of the gun. >> Mhm. >> And then you leave a foot behind.
00:31:14
>> Yeah. >> Right. I mean, and like we said, some of the police officers that were at the
00:31:18
scene at the time said, "Look, you have to assume that this is a homicide scene,
00:31:23
>> and you need to do your due diligence, so therefore, we can get some answers."
00:31:29
And this is direct evidence to point that they said, "Well, this is a suicide or accident. Case shut."
00:31:37
>> Well, in fact, it became it became well-known knowledge that the sheriff's investigators never even roped off the
00:31:43
scene. Um, and some other people recovered parts of the gun from that scene that the sheriff's office had
00:31:49
missed. >> Well, congratulations. >> When they returned Dawn's clothing to the Henry's, um, his stepmother found a
00:31:58
small bag of pot in his pocket. >> Uh, so the officers had missed this entirely.
00:32:04
>> And two days after the boy's death, the sheriff's, they they offer a statement
00:32:08
saying, "Hey, we haven't ruled out anything except for foul play. We ruled that out." Mhm. Yeah. In review of the
00:32:15
investigation, it was learned that the sheriff's office spent about a week on the investigation. This mostly consisted
00:32:22
of interviews with friends and classmates of the two boys. Uh most of these interviews contained the same two
00:32:29
questions. Well, heck, most of these interviews only consisted of two questions.
00:32:34
>> One, how much drugs did the boys use? And two, were they suicidal? >> Right? And this is what makes me go
00:32:42
bonkers, man. It's it's again, like we said, they are they have a theory and then they're trying to create the
00:32:49
narrative. >> And we see this time and time again. It's it's just it's utter malarkey.
00:32:55
>> Yeah. And usually even in an accidental death when they are invest when they're
00:32:59
investigating it, they will typically ask friends and relatives, well, do you know anybody that would have wanted to
00:33:04
hurt this person, right? >> Or why? And you know, and this is not even a question that is posed to most of
00:33:10
these people, >> right? But you're asking people the same question. Are they suicidal? How much
00:33:15
drugs did they use? >> And then it creates the story amongst the people that well that's must be what
00:33:20
happened here, >> right? And then and then obviously think about the family. Why would you why
00:33:26
would you tell your parents? Why one would you spend the night with anybody? And then why would you decide to oh well
00:33:32
let's just go hunting and uh let's now let's just lay down on the tracks >> and again like you said you'd have to
00:33:39
have I mean you'd have to have the balls >> nerves of steel man >> to lay there on that track
00:33:46
>> and let that happen. >> Yeah. Well, this story obviously very quickly became big-time news all across
00:33:52
the state of Arkansas. Not only was the story a parents worst nightmare, but it was a strange and horrible story all at
00:34:00
the same time. Of course, the rumor mill ran wild and there were a lot of theories regarding the deaths being
00:34:08
traded around dinner tables, dinners, at local bars, and you know, all over the state of Arkansas. One of the things
00:34:16
that I find a little creepy about this and uh our longtime listeners would know we we covered the Phantom Killer, also
00:34:23
known as the Tex Arcana murders. >> Mhm. >> And and having the train come from Tex
00:34:29
Arcana adds a little bit to the creep factor for me. The sheriff's office officially seemed to be describing the
00:34:37
deaths as an apparent accident, but would not give it that official title yet, stating that the official cause of
00:34:44
death would have to come from the state medical examiner's office. Unfortunately, when the deputies were
00:34:50
speaking with the families, they suggested that suicide was a more likely explanation.
00:34:56
>> Right. Again, coming up with your own narrative. >> Well, and both sets of parents disagreed
00:35:00
with this thought uh from the beginning. uh that you know there was no evidence that the boys were suicidal. There was
00:35:09
some evidence that the boys had been using drugs. Uh one 1.9 gram of marijuana was found in the pocket of
00:35:15
Kevin's jeans. >> Right. And not always is there signs of somebody struggling with, you know,
00:35:21
suicidal thoughts. >> Here's another strange thing to this story though, Captain, uh that is often
00:35:27
not reported. Kevin's father, Larry Ives, he was an engineer for the railroad. Mhm.
00:35:33
>> Uh the route that the train was on that passed over the boys, that route just
00:35:38
months before it was his route. >> Um and it was just pure coincidence that that route was no longer Larry's or he
00:35:48
would have been driving the train that night, >> right? So he would have he would have
00:35:52
been engineering the train that basically, you know, uh ran over his own son. >> Mhm. The parents obviously were
00:36:00
devastated by the tragedy, but they were also disappointed in the sheriff's office and how they handled this
00:36:06
incident. They were anxiously awaiting the medical examiner's ruling on the cause of deaths. Uh, and they wanted
00:36:13
answers, obviously. A week after the funerals, the medical examiner had finished his report and a meeting with
00:36:20
the parents was scheduled. When the parents arrived, they were first met in the parking lot by officers from the
00:36:27
sheriff's office. There was also an officer from the Arkansas State Police there as well. This was really good news
00:36:34
to the parents as they had been requesting multiple times in this short time period that the case be transferred
00:36:41
to the state police. Um, but that had not been done. >> Uh, Ke Kevin's parents brought a
00:36:48
potential useful item with them. Larry and some of his friends went to the site where the boys had died. When when they
00:36:56
were there, they found a large piece of cardboard. The piece was large enough that it could have been used to drag two
00:37:03
bodies on it. There was also a stain on it, and that stain could have been blood.
00:37:08
>> Right. >> Larry knew that the sheriff's office didn't have the technology or the
00:37:12
capability to properly analyze it, so he wanted to bring it directly to the medical examiner's office. in the
00:37:19
parking lot. He showed the piece of cardboard to the state police officer and he turns it over to him. There we
00:37:26
have a 16 and 17 year old and obviously they're just teenagers but they're becoming young men and you know you have
00:37:32
a lot of growth spurts at those times. So we're talking about two big individuals
00:37:37
>> that you know now it's very possible if there was foul play that they were they
00:37:42
were attacked on the train tracks because we know that's where they are at. But if they were attacked somewhere
00:37:48
else and they use this piece of cardboard, anybody that knows, it's like a sled push or something like in
00:37:54
weightlifting. Yeah. >> You can put on a ton of weight, but because it's on on a different surface,
00:38:01
you can drag that surface, you know? I mean, most people can't pick up a couch, but people can push it around their
00:38:08
living room. >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately, this possible piece of evidence, um, it's not
00:38:14
seen again after this situation. He, the father gives it to the state officer and
00:38:19
he's told that it's going to get where it needs to go to be examined and that just simply doesn't happen.
00:38:25
>> Right. And again, the the my issue is you'd have to test this to one, find out
00:38:30
if it was blood. If there was blood, then we can assume that this was used to maybe transport the bodies.
00:38:36
>> But here's the other thing about it. This is the thing that frustrates me is whoever used if that was used to
00:38:43
transport the bodies, then there's a good likelihood that there was fingerprints on there.
00:38:48
>> Right. Right. >> And and and that's what frustrates me. >> When the parents went inside to meet the
00:38:54
medical examiner, uh this is Fami Malik is his name. Uh they were >> Yeah. And his face looks exactly like
00:39:01
the way his name sounds. >> Okay. [laughter] Uh but >> fomie. >> Well, the >> his face is very fomy.
00:39:08
>> When the parents first met Malik, they found him to be weird. Uh when they first arrived, Malik took Polaroid
00:39:14
pictures of each parent and had asked each of them to sign forms so it was official as to who was in attendance at
00:39:21
this meeting. >> Oh, I thought you were going to say he took pictures. He took Polaroid pictures
00:39:25
of them. Then he asked them to shake it like [laughter] a Polaroid picture. >> Malik then passed out copies of his
00:39:31
official ruling. The statement read something like this. At 4:25 a.m. August 23rd, 1987, Kevin Ives, 17, and Don
00:39:41
Henry, 16, were unconscious in a deep sleep on the railroad tracks under the psychedelic influence of THC,
00:39:49
marijuana, right >> when a train passed over them, causing their accidental deaths. The parents
00:39:56
began questioning Dr. Malik, not really his ruling, but they wanted more information because none of them had
00:40:03
ever heard of people passing out from THC. >> Right. >> According to the parents, Malik seemed
00:40:09
very irritated at the additional questions. I think that he thought that they would simply hear his final ruling,
00:40:15
accept it, and then leave. This is very surprising to me that he would not have expected questions or that he would have
00:40:22
seemed irritated at the additional questions given his amount of experience in these matters. You know, no one
00:40:28
handles a sudden death well, and loved ones are always left with a lot of questions when someone suddenly dies,
00:40:34
especially if it's your kids, and especially if the circumstances surrounding those deaths are abnormal.
00:40:41
This guy has the bedside manner of a wolverine. He basically states that marijuana levels in the boys were
00:40:48
extremely high. Drawing a line on a chalkboard, he writes a large five below the line and a 100 above it. Pointing to
00:40:57
the 100, he says, "This is how stoned they were." >> Well, you know, old Captain Fami over
00:41:02
here. I think part of his annoyance is that, >> you know, he's an expert in his mind
00:41:09
>> and here's my findings and kind of how dare you question me. >> Yeah. Well, of course, the parents are
00:41:16
still confused as the doctor has not clearly explained this very well, >> right?
00:41:21
>> Uh when they ask him, "What kind of measurement is that?" Malik snaps back and says, "It's units."
00:41:27
>> The parents wanted this explained to them in an easier terms because marijuana was not something they were
00:41:32
familiar with. They didn't know if passing out was possible or likely or or really what they wanted to know how much
00:41:41
pot the kids would have had to have smoked to achieve these high levels of THC. Malik never really answers that
00:41:49
particular question. >> Right? >> The more the parents question him or push him for reasonable answers, the
00:41:55
more the doctor gets upset with them. And at some point he holds up a large envelope stating that inside are the
00:42:02
autopsy photos and in these photos is the proof that you are looking for. Well, the parents of course they they
00:42:10
don't want to see these photos at all. >> Right. >> And they told him that they didn't want
00:42:14
to see these photos. >> Yeah. I don't know what parent would want to see that. >> Yeah. They wanted toxicology results and
00:42:22
Malik insisted that they see the photos. As crazy as this whole story sounds, I believe this is true because remember
00:42:29
the officers are there with the parents at this time and at this meeting. Yeah. >> And we already know that they are not
00:42:35
all on the same page. But one of the officers >> Yeah. Just meaning that some of the
00:42:39
officers >> think from the get-go this should be this should have been looked at as a
00:42:44
homicide and then some of the other ones just going this is probably accidental >> or possibly suicide. Well, and the
00:42:50
officers know that the parents are dissatisfied with with the officer's investigation of this incident.
00:42:57
>> Yeah. And I think the officer's hearts would have to go out to those parents.
00:43:00
>> And this is why this statement has to be true because one of the officers then
00:43:04
stands up at the table and this is an increasingly heated debate. But he says, pointing to the photos, pointing to the
00:43:12
envelope, he says, "They don't want to see those." >> Right? Uh that same officer as he begins
00:43:17
to take his seat again, he tells the parents that Malik had told them that 20 joints is what the boys would have had
00:43:25
to have smoked to to have that high level of THC. >> That you know I am not a you know pot
00:43:31
smoker myself, but I would just assume that 20 joints is a is a lot of joints. Yes. 20 joints would be a considerable
00:43:40
amount of >> I mean even if you just put it in like terms of like cigarettes like a normal
00:43:45
cigarette package has 20 cigarettes in it. >> Mhm. >> So they would have had to smoke 20
00:43:52
cigarettes within hours. >> I I don't know. But it sounds that way because he's pointing to the 100 mark
00:44:00
and saying this is how stoned these guys were. Um it it seems like >> Yeah, but I would have walked up to that
00:44:06
board and pointed to that 100 and said, "Mr. Fami, this is how much of an [ __ ] you are. [laughter]
00:44:12
That's that's what that 100 means." >> Well, Malik, he denies that he had ever told the officers such a statement. He
00:44:18
says, "I never told the officers that it would have taken 20 joints." Um and the
00:44:22
officers, they had reason to believe that the boys purchased a $10 bag of marijuana on one of their stops that
00:44:31
night. um the the police, >> right? It's a man, if you can get 20 joints out of $10 of marijuana,
00:44:38
>> Yeah. it'd be a bad business to be in because you could you you could spend $10 and be good for quite some time,
00:44:44
>> right? >> Uh the medical examiner's findings not only seemed questionable to the parents,
00:44:50
but most of the citizens of Arkansas were pretty stunned by the ruling. Uh this is according to the newspapers. The
00:44:57
parents decided to seek a second opinion. They hired a second pathologist to review the deaths. Now, this was a
00:45:04
pathologist that came recommended to them uh from other physicians in the area. This is Dr. JT Francisco. He's
00:45:12
located in Memphis, Tennessee. He was charging the parents $200 an hour. Uh and he explained to them that he would
00:45:20
preserve and test the blood of both boys and the urine of Kevin. they would be unable to test Don's urine because his
00:45:28
bladder had been completely destroyed. >> Right. And then also the this is the first time that the parents are aware
00:45:34
that that his urine hasn't been tested. >> Yeah. So we're seeing some progress here
00:45:40
for the parents. Uh they received the results from Dr. Francisco. Uh and he actually confirms Dr. Malik's ruling. Uh
00:45:49
he quoted the same levels of THC that Malik had reported, >> 100 >> 97 micrograms per milliliter for Kevin
00:45:58
and 122 for Dawn. >> Okay. >> Upon further review of the material sent to the parents from Dr. Francisco's
00:46:05
office, they were able to determine that the results were from a test of Kevin's
00:46:10
urine only. No blood from either boy or no urine from Dawn were tested. >> All right. So he's agreeing with, you
00:46:19
know, Mr. Fami. >> Yeah. So they get Dr. Francisco on the phone and after some debate on how he
00:46:26
could have confirmed Malik's findings with only having tested the urine of one boy, uh the doctor then admitted that
00:46:34
they had arrived at the conclusion by inference. uh because his lab and the Arkansas lab followed standard
00:46:42
procedures, the confirmation of one test gave weight of confidence that the other
00:46:47
findings were going to be true as well. >> Right. But couldn't they just test both
00:46:51
of their bloods? >> But they didn't. That's the whole thing. They were led to believe that that both
00:46:56
sets of blood would be tested. They didn't test any of that. But they but they claim that they can back up Malik's
00:47:03
findings. >> Right. So, we have the Ives family and the Henry family kind of getting [ __ ]
00:47:07
around again. >> In February of 1988, the parents contacted members of the media to
00:47:13
arrange for a press conference. This is a brilliant idea and they arrived at this plan because the longer this thing
00:47:19
went on, they were beginning to realize that the only group interested in this case was the media. No other group
00:47:26
wanted to spend any time on this thing. The day after the press conference, the families were contacted by Richard
00:47:32
Garrett, who is the district deputy prosecuting attorney. Garrett wanted to help. He told Linda that until he saw
00:47:39
the press conference, he had no idea that the parents of the dead boys had been dissatisfied with the sheriff's
00:47:46
department. >> Mhm. >> He was going to hold a prosecutor's hearing. >> Well, what's that exactly?
00:47:51
>> Well, he he's hoping that they will re-examine the case. But a a prosecutor's hearing is not just
00:47:57
unusual. They are highly unusual. These are intended for only special inquiries.
00:48:03
Uh particularly when the cause of death is in dispute. >> Well, here the the cause of death is
00:48:08
definitely in dispute. >> I mean, we have two coroners saying, "Well, they they got super stoned and
00:48:14
then they lay down on the tracks and they got ran over by a train." >> Mhm. >> And then the parents are going, "Well,
00:48:19
that just doesn't add up. Doesn't make a lot of sense to us." Mhm. Well, the uh deputy prosecuting attorney Garrett, he
00:48:27
would introduce the families to a man by the name of Dan Harmon. Now, Dan Harmon
00:48:32
is actually a guy that is off in a private practice. He's not a prosecutor, but he's going to be brought in as a
00:48:39
quote unquote special prosecutor in this situation. and he is going to make arrangements because he wants to get a
00:48:47
grand jury organized so that this case can be looked at by some fresh eyes and decide if the an investigation should
00:48:55
shift gears or if that there's a chance of a trial taking place here. >> Right. Right. So basically this grand
00:49:01
jury is going to be set up. They're going to look at that evidence and they're going to decide, do we need to
00:49:06
reinvestigate this case or is it shut, you know, open and shut case where these guys smoke some pot and then they had an
00:49:16
accident where the train ran over them. >> Mhm. And more importantly, if if the the
00:49:20
cause of death is what's in question, what the big dispute is, then can we get, you know, another autopsy? Can we
00:49:28
get other autopsies performed on these two bodies? >> Right. And after a couple more autopsies
00:49:33
are performed, I think part of it too is like you don't want the families uh of these, you know, victims, they're
00:49:39
victims of at least at this point a tragic accident. You don't want them to be dissatisfied with uh law enforcement
00:49:49
and the way uh the coroner or anybody else handled their loved ones case. >> Mhm. So, upon further review, the grand
00:49:57
jury, the first thing that they're going to do is determine if this cause of death is correct. And their findings,
00:50:03
they're not agreeing with what Dr. Malik had stated. And they basically overturn
00:50:08
the cause of death as a possible accident, as a likely accident to a possible homicide. Well, once that takes
00:50:17
place, they're going to need to bring in somebody to conduct a further investigation into this autopsy. and
00:50:24
take a look at this thing and see if their findings are correct. >> Right. So, we already have two autopsies
00:50:31
done. So, this is technically going g going to be the third autopsy done. >> Yes. So, this they will bring in a man
00:50:37
by the name of Dr. Burton. And they actually bring him in from Atlanta. Uh they wanted to bring in somebody that
00:50:43
had more experience and somebody with outside eyes that wasn't so privy to what was going on in the area.
00:50:50
>> They bring in Dr. Burton. And what are his findings? Well, to begin with, one
00:50:54
of the things that he found most disconcerning or most important to this case is the shirt that was worn by Don
00:51:01
Henry or allegedly worn by Don Henry. This is the shirt that was not on the boy's body when he was found. This was
00:51:08
found some distance away from the track where the torso and the body of Don Henry were discovered.
00:51:14
>> All right. So, Don didn't have a shirt on, but this shirt was possibly ran over
00:51:19
by the train. >> Yes. Yes. This shirt, as we know, has a lot of tears and defects in it. A
00:51:24
question that was raised as to whether these tears or defects were made by the body being pulled down the track by the
00:51:31
motion of the train over the body of the victim. What Burton did was he had took
00:51:37
the shirt to a private laboratory that he had worked in in Atlanta, and they took one of these tears. This was a tear
00:51:44
from the lower back area of the shirt that was kind of in the area of of an injury that they had found on the back
00:51:50
of Don Henry. And they took a scalpel and they cut this defect out which measured a little bit over an inch in
00:51:58
length. They then took this defect and they analyzed it under a scanning electron microscope which is a very
00:52:05
powerful microscope. And with this microscope, they could tell whether the fabric had been torn or cut with
00:52:11
something like scissors or a knife. >> Right. So what he's saying is this cut on the shirt and the body was either
00:52:18
made by scissors or a knife. >> Yeah. Well, basically basically what he can say is that the cut on the shirt, it
00:52:25
exhibited all the characteristics of something that was cut with a very sharp blade.
00:52:30
>> Um, so there's there's no question as far as this being a tear or anything like that. As far as Dr. Burton is
00:52:37
concerned, also around the cut in the shirt, they found evidence of blood, >> which means
00:52:45
>> which means that the the boy had probably bled through some kind of injury before the shirt was removed from
00:52:51
his body. >> Right. So, we're starting to assume that this uh injury was um premortem.
00:52:58
>> Yes. Yes. And and here's the to kind of lay it out very quickly here of Burton's
00:53:04
concerns, right? First of all, we have the the knife. He believes a knife made this cut in the shirt.
00:53:10
>> Second of all, it's majorly concerning to him that this cut matches up with a
00:53:14
with an injury to the boy's back. And that more importantly, that the shirt was not found on the boy's body. Meaning
00:53:22
that if this was an injury that was sustained by the train itself, that you would expect to see you would expect to
00:53:28
see the the shirt still on the boy matching up with the injury. Another thing that concerned Burton was an
00:53:35
injury found to the left cheek of Kevin Ives. Uh this was an injury that he did not find consistent with any pattern
00:53:42
that might have been made from being struck by the cow catcher in front of the engine.
00:53:47
>> Uh he explained that he sent photographs of the boy's injuries to a computer enhancement specialist and he was
00:53:53
awaiting those results. >> So we have two things that he finds pretty odd. Mhm. Yeah. These are
00:53:59
injuries that would not be consistent with with the train. Now, the thing is once they get those results back,
00:54:05
Captain, he finds a as well as the the specialists that he sent them to, they find that that injury to Kevin's cheek
00:54:13
is consistent with that of being struck in the face with like the butt of a gun.
00:54:18
M >> and more specifically uh they said that the gun that was found with the boys could have very likely
00:54:26
made that injury or caused that injury. It would have been a similar type gun or
00:54:31
that gun. The other thing that's interesting here, Captain, is that he would find something in both of the boys
00:54:38
that would give him cause of concern. Uh this is the amount of congestion and fluid in the lungs of both of the boys.
00:54:45
He felt that this was inconsistent with the type of injuries that one might expect from someone being run over by a
00:54:52
train when you have a sudden death occurring. He feels that it's very likely uh that the possibility exists
00:54:59
that because there's this con congestion and fluid in the lungs that both boys were either unconscious or already dead
00:55:07
when they were placed on those tracks. >> They're either dead or they're knocked
00:55:11
unconscious and that's why they didn't move at all. Mhm. >> And so that the train possibly did cause
00:55:18
their death, but who put them there? >> Mhm. >> Who made them unconscious? >> Another thing that he included in the
00:55:26
autopsies as well, and this is more opinion than it is fact. Um, but he had agreed with the train crew members,
00:55:34
stating that he he didn't see how anyone, whether they be passed out from drug use or be sleeping on the tracks,
00:55:43
how they would not have, you know, woke up as the train was getting closer and closer. These these rails, they vibrate.
00:55:50
The the train was extremely loud. Anybody that even has ever stood next to a train, just on the ground, you can
00:55:56
feel the ground moving below your feet. Uh there was also a state trooper that was involved with the u grand jury who
00:56:05
had gone down to the train tracks with with some other people witnessing him. And he timed this so that he would be
00:56:12
arriving and he could he could do this little experiment as a train was coming. He laid down exactly how the boys were
00:56:20
laying on the tracks. >> Mhm. >> And he jumped up from the from the rails pretty quickly. But he said that, you
00:56:26
know, when this train was, this train was still quite a ways away, maybe a quarter of a mile, he said he felt the
00:56:32
thing when it was like a mile and a half away from him. He could feel it coming down the tracks. And then on top of
00:56:38
that, he said he he he got terrified and to the point where he says he still has
00:56:42
a little bit of like PTSD just from from that moment experiencing that little experience.
00:56:48
>> He was also conscious at the time. >> Correct. >> All right. So this third autopsy, it
00:56:52
brings up some questions and and it seems like it's not that agreeable with the first two autopsies.
00:57:00
>> Mhm. >> Which I think, you know, causes a lot of concern. I think it also causes a lot of
00:57:04
concern with the parents. >> Well, as far as that second test goes, and let's let's call that a test rather
00:57:10
than an autopsy because it was supposed to be a testing of the boy's blood and the boy's urine. Um,
00:57:16
>> you're exactly correct. >> Thank you. and and but we know that that didn't take place. Um but not only does
00:57:22
this point out here that the the autopsies were probably wrong, but now this really starts to make you question
00:57:30
the medical examiner himself uh you know what what is he up to? Why how would he
00:57:37
have arrived at these conclusions uh after performing an autopsy? he had a significant amount of time to perform
00:57:44
these tests and he comes up with a completely different ruling than what this this other guy comes up with from
00:57:51
from Atlanta, >> right? And look, then it becomes which doctor is correct? Well, because of this
00:57:58
whole case, we have a lot of interesting things come out about Malik >> and Malik has all these autopsies that
00:58:04
were ruled normally natural causes or accidental. And because of this, you know, because
00:58:11
of the parents, and I applaud the parents, they start stirring the pot. And then they start going back and
00:58:17
looking at some of his other autopsies, >> right? >> We have a scenario where he ruled a guy
00:58:23
saying >> we're we're just going to tell you about some of the more wild ones. Let's call
00:58:28
them wild. And and we won't use any names because these p these particular people are only involved in this case
00:58:34
through Malik. They have really no right, >> you know, nothing to do with this case,
00:58:38
but this gives you an idea of some of the shenanigans going on with Fami Malik, >> right? So, old Fami, he, you know, rules
00:58:48
this guy dies of a ulcer and not a big deal, >> right? That's his ruling. The guy died
00:58:53
of an ulcer >> and everybody actually agrees with him. >> Says, "Hey, Malik did his job again."
00:59:00
But they had people find this guy's head. >> Yeah. So he was decapitated. Apparently
00:59:08
that happens naturally when you have an ulcer. Uh your head just pops off. >> Right. Um
00:59:14
>> so once they found this severed head, they realized this autopsy was completely botched.
00:59:21
>> Yeah. Do do you want to know how he defended himself on that particular case?
00:59:26
>> Sure. >> So um here's what happened here. They they found the the dog that lived with
00:59:32
this guy. Uh he actually lay dead in his home for for quite some time. Uh the dog
00:59:37
that lived there, they recovered some of the dog's vomit and in it they found what what Fami believed to be uh
00:59:45
evidence of of human tissue of of skin. Um, so what had happened was Fami said that the guy had died and he lay there
00:59:53
for quite some time and at some point the dog uh chewed on the neck and to the point of decapitating uh his owner. Um,
01:00:03
but of course the thing here is it it was all the evidence points to a very clean cut of somebody killing this guy
01:00:13
and taking off his head, not the gnawing of a dog uh chewing chewing up this this
01:00:20
guy's neck. >> Right. And then there's this other case where the guy this guy was suicidal. He
01:00:25
he he told his family about it. >> Yeah. >> He they put him in in a place for treatment. He wanted help, right?
01:00:33
>> He went to his family and said, "Help me out." And and >> Right. And it looks like he lost his
01:00:37
battle with, you know, suicidal thoughts and he hung himself. >> Right. >> And in this case, Malik decides, well,
01:00:45
it wasn't suicide. It was actually an accidental death. >> Mhm. And again, it's just stuff like
01:00:52
that where it's like, and this is just three examples of probably like >> doz maybe a dozen or 20 of them out
01:00:59
there that that are pretty well known, >> right? And so the governor at this time
01:01:04
is Bill Clinton. >> Mhm. >> And people are calling for this guy's job, saying, "Look, we got these two
01:01:09
boys that now we believe, there's good reason to believe that there was some foul play and this guy is ruling this.
01:01:17
We dug up all this other stuff. He's not doing his job and taxpayers are paying for that. They want him to c, you know,
01:01:24
they want Bill Clinton to ask for his resignation, right? >> Bill Clinton says, "Well, I I'm not
01:01:30
really in charge of doing that. That's not really my thing." So, what do they do? Do they fire him? Do they replace
01:01:37
him? >> No. They give him a 43% raise. Where this leaves us now is we now have to
01:01:43
look at these two deaths as murders. Okay? So, we need to conduct a proper murder investigation.
01:01:50
>> Mhm. >> And why were these things covered up? And why does it seem that government
01:01:56
officials and people at the medical examiner's office and the sheriff's department, they seem to not want to
01:02:01
investigate this thing properly, right? And at what lengths are they going to go
01:02:06
to or what is anybody going to go to to possibly cover up this murder? There's so much more to get into and we're just
01:02:14
on the first episode of this. >> Yeah. Because if the cause of death can be overturned, that brings up so many
01:02:20
more questions. Okay. First of all, if these boys were murdered, why were they murdered? What what happened during
01:02:27
those four hours between the time they left Don's house and the time that they're found on those tracks? What
01:02:33
occurred during those four hours? Did they see something that they shouldn't have seen? Mhm.
01:02:38
>> Did they come across somebody that they they shouldn't have come across? What
01:02:42
happened to those boys in that 4 hours? >> Well, we have a really good idea what
01:02:46
happened because we have a bunch of eyewitness accounts. We're going to have to get into that tomorrow.
01:02:51
>> Yes. And don't forget to check out all of our old episodes. They're available
01:02:55
in the iTunes store and on our store page at true crimegar.com. >> Thank you guys so much for sharing the
01:03:03
Thank you guys so much for sharing. Thank you guys so much for sharing it with a friends, family. I just got a
01:03:10
text message a couple minutes ago saying, "Hey, I told somebody about your show. Uh they don't call it true crime
01:03:16
garage, they call it the captain's show." >> The captain's show. Well, imagine that.
01:03:21
Isn't that special? All right, we'll see you guys in the garage tomorrow. And until then, be good, be kind, and don't
01:03:27
litter. >> [music] [music]