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[music] [music] >> [music] >> Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, thanks
00:01:44
for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always is a man who won this year's feats of strength. Here is the
00:01:51
captain. [music] And I also won airing my grievances. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening.
00:01:58
Thanks for telling a friend. [music] This week we are merry little elves because we are getting full of holiday
00:02:07
cheer. We are drinking Holiday Cheer, one of my favorite Christmas beers from the good folks at Shiner. Holiday Cheer
00:02:15
is a Bavarianstyle dark wheat ale brewed with Texas peaches and roasted pecans. ABV 5.4%
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garage grade four [music] and 3/4 bottle caps out of five. And let's spread the cheer by sharing a cheers. First up,
00:02:32
cheers to Nicole in Calati, California. >> And a big we like your jib goes out to
00:02:37
Robert Maxwell [music] in Louisville, Kentucky. >> And here's a shout out to Lynn in
00:02:42
Memphis, the quote best mom in the world from her favorite son, Cooper. Merry Christmas to everyone who contributed to
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the beer fund. Yeah. Merry Christmas to everyone listening and joining us here in the garage today. We thank you.
00:02:58
>> Yeah. BW ruin beerun. RIP Todd [music] Snider. If you know, you know. Check out true crimegar.com.
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Sign up on the mailing list. Hey, subscribe to Off the Record if you need more True [music] Crime Garage for your
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ear balls. And Colonel, that's enough of the business. All right, everybody, gather around, grab a chair, grab a
00:03:20
beer. Let's talk some true crime. [music] [bell] [music] >> [laughter] >> December 26th, 1945.
00:03:57
The terrifying headline from the New York Times reads, "11 children die and four home fires. Weatherman's Christmas
00:04:04
greetings to two cities." That headline refers to a Times article reporting on multiple fatal Christmas Eve home fires,
00:04:13
including the infamous incident where five Solder children disappeared in Fagetville, West Virginia, after their
00:04:20
house burned down, sparking a famous mystery of potential kidnapping and unresolved disappearance.
00:04:27
The report details how a fire destroyed the solder home with officials believing
00:04:33
the five children perished, though no remains were found, leading the family to suspect foul play and fueling decades
00:04:40
of investigation. Early reporting places George and Jenny Solder and nine of their 10 children
00:04:47
asleep in the two-story home. A blazing fire quickly consumed their home in the middle of a frigid night, killing five
00:04:56
children while parents and four siblings escaped. It was very cold with temperatures dropping below freezing
00:05:04
during the night. It was cold enough that the area experienced a white Christmas. No remains were found in the
00:05:11
rubble, leading the family to believe that the children were abducted before the fire. A belief reinforced by
00:05:19
suspicious circumstances and subsequent unconfirmed leads. The New York Times headline 11 children die in four home
00:05:27
fires, weatherman's Christmas greetings to two cities specifically covered this in other Christmas Day tragedies. But it
00:05:35
was the solder case that gained lasting fame due to the missing children. This is True Crime Garage. [music]
00:05:51
[music] We have featured many, many [music] cases over the years. We have covered
00:06:02
and gone over hundreds of unsolved murder mysteries, some of them cold cases. We have one here tonight on tap
00:06:11
that will chill you to the bone. We often attempt to remind folks that each case is unique. You cannot nor should
00:06:20
not ever go into one of these cases with the mindset that you have seen it all before because you and we have not. If
00:06:29
you put blinders on, you will very likely prevent yourself from ever seeing the truth. This week's case is unique
00:06:38
and unlike any other case that we have covered in so many ways, but one way in particular that makes this one stand
00:06:46
alone. Again, we have reviewed many cases when and where additional investigating agencies and resources get
00:06:54
involved, but this is the first that I recall that we have the Smithsonian Institution
00:07:02
that became involved in this case. And it's a very strange and tragic Christmas mystery. This unsolved mystery is often
00:07:12
referred to as the Solder Children disappearance. This is when in 1945, five of the 10 Solder children simply
00:07:22
vanished after their house burned down, sparking a famous mystery that has fueled decades of investigation. Now,
00:07:31
let's get into some of the facts of the case, the timeline, and learn a bit about the Solder family by going back to
00:07:38
the early 1900s. The parents of the 10 Solder children are George and Jenny Solder, who were
00:07:46
both originally from Italy. So, let's go back to 1911 when a young teenager, just
00:07:52
a boy, really, only 13 years old, named Giorgio, immigrates from Sardinia, Italy
00:08:00
to the United States. Once here, he is now George Solder, his American name. Not much is known about his time before
00:08:08
he came to the state of West Virginia, but what is known is that he lived in Pennsylvania and Michigan for some time
00:08:17
and worked on the railroad. On a draft registration card from 1917, he states that he was sending money back to his
00:08:26
parents. Sometime in the early 1920s, he arrived in Smithers, West Virginia, and
00:08:32
worked both in the coal mines and as a taxi driver. Smithers is where he would meet his soon-to-be wife, Jenny. Jenny
00:08:42
was born Jenny Cypriyani in March of 1903 in Italy. She was the second born of six siblings, two boys and four
00:08:51
girls. She came to America with her parents in 1904. They eventually moved to Smithers, West Virginia, where her
00:08:59
father, Joseph Cypriyani, eventually opened a store called The Music Box. Jenny would work at the Music Box
00:09:07
sometimes, and that is where she met George Solder. They were married on November 4th, 1922. And then George and
00:09:15
Jenny Solder over the next 20 years would go on to have 10 children. So there's a dozen in the Solder Clan.
00:09:23
That's a lot of kitis. >> George and Jenny lived in Smithers until 1935 when they decided to move to
00:09:31
Fagatville. Makes some sense here as Fagville during those days had a large population of Italian immigrants. By
00:09:38
then they already had seven children. John, Joe, Marian, George Jr., who actually went by Ted, Maurice, Martha,
00:09:48
and Lewis. So, the big family is going to be moving and George decided to leave the coal mines and begin working for a
00:09:58
local businessman. His name is Fenzo Jonnutello. >> Yeah, it seemed like this area had a
00:10:04
high population of Italians. >> Fenzo Jonnutello co-owned Jonotello and company with his first cousin, Cleante
00:10:15
Jonatello. In October of 1935, the solders bought the land where the fire would eventually occur and built a
00:10:25
twostory house with a full basement. Donatello agreed to cosign the loan for the house
00:10:35
under the condition that he be made beneficiary of the home insurance. And to this arrangement, George agreed. Now
00:10:45
sometime in 1943, George decided to part ways with Jonatello and bought a failing company.
00:10:52
This was the Dempsey Transfer Company. It is rumored that Jonotello was not happy with George leaving him or
00:11:01
George's decision. But George would eventually change the name of this company to the Solder Trucking Company
00:11:08
and it and ran it with the help of his two oldest sons, John and Joe. and left Jenny in charge of handling the books
00:11:17
for the company. George's business prospered and they became quote one of the most respected middleclass families
00:11:24
around end quote. This was the words of one local official. By 1945, the couple had 10 children,
00:11:33
adding Jenny, Betty, and Sylvia to the mix. Also in 1945 in major world news, it was finally the end of World War II.
00:11:43
Of course, we know that the Allies won, but it's a little difficult to use the word one when over 70 million people
00:11:50
worldwide were killed. But Germany surrendered in May of 1945 and then Japan surrenders in August of that same
00:11:57
year. But before all of that, in April of 1945, the man who was the dictator of Italy, Benito Mussolini,
00:12:08
dictator up until 1943, was executed after being overthrown and arrested. Now, please note that I didn't go out of
00:12:15
my way to mention Mussolini as that name and the country of Italy come up quite a
00:12:21
bit in the theories and speculation portions of this case. Now, let's zoom in, captain, on the latter part of 1945.
00:12:31
The day in question will be Christmas 1945, but let's go right around 60 days before Christmas when the former
00:12:42
business partner and co-signer of the home, Jonathello, tells his friend, he sends his friend and insurance salesman,
00:12:50
Roser Long to the Solder residence. this to try to convince George to raise the amount of insurance currently on the
00:13:02
house and also take out life insurance on every member of the solder family. George takes the meeting, listens to
00:13:11
what this salesman has to say, but declines to raise the insurance and declines the life insurance on the
00:13:19
members of his family. >> Yeah. Then it seems to get pretty heated. >> Yes. There's varying reports of this uh
00:13:27
but the one that seems to ring the most true to me anyway is Jonatello then visited the solder home. I guess this is
00:13:37
at his anger that George wouldn't sign up for the additional insurance. The report I have in front of me, again,
00:13:45
reported various ways, but the report I have in front of me, Jonatello visited the home and stated to George, quote, "I
00:13:52
see you have refused to take out insurance and refuse to sign the papers to settle Mrs. Solder's father's estate.
00:14:00
Your godamn house is going up in smoke, and your children are going to be destroyed, and you are going to pay for
00:14:08
the dirty remarks you have been making about Mussolini." End quote. He was a lover of Mussolini.
00:14:14
>> Okay, we need to point out something here that's that's reported everywhere in in in all accounts of this the
00:14:20
telling of this true crime story. It seems to be no secret that George Slaughter George Sold was not a fan of
00:14:29
Bonito Mussolini. In fact, he was rather vocal at his dislike for Mussolini. God
00:14:36
forbid you say something bad about uh a dictator of a country who chooses to join the enemy partnering with a
00:14:47
genocidal maniac like Hitler. >> Yeah, >> I couldn't think of anything good to say
00:14:51
about Mussolini, but also I don't want my house burned down. So don't hold it against me, folks. So sometime after
00:14:58
this threat was made by Jonatello, but before the Christmas fire, >> right, there was a man that came to the
00:15:07
Solder residence and asked George if he needed any work done on the place. It's believed that this man was known to
00:15:16
George, but I couldn't find his name in any reports. So George tells the man that no, we're
00:15:24
good and we don't need any work performed at the solder residence. This nameless man then supposedly walked
00:15:32
around to the back of the house, pointed to two separate fuse boxes and said, "That's going to start a fire someday."
00:15:40
To which George replies, "We have an electric stove and then we had to have an extra fuse box installed for it."
00:15:49
Now, it is stated in many reports elsewhere that George also said that they had electricians, professional
00:15:58
electricians that came out, installed this fuse box, >> right, >> and signed off on it that it was
00:16:05
perfectly safe. >> Yeah. But you got to remember the time period. It's 1945. And throughout the
00:16:10
years, practices of the past have had to be upgraded be due to safety and hazardous reasons. Yes, signing off on
00:16:20
electric being perfectly safe has been done countless times and we've also had uncountable house fires due to bad
00:16:31
wiring or electrical issues. The report is though as as said that he informs this guy of hey everything's fine here.
00:16:40
We don't need any work. You're wrong about the fuse box. And then this man leaves again. this man nameless in in
00:16:48
all of the reports. >> Well, and I think it's funny that when the one guy says, "Your house is going
00:16:53
to burn down," we assume that that was a threatening remark. But this guy that was known to the father says something
00:17:04
and we don't take that as a threatening remark. We take that as more as like, "Hey, that fuse box is going to start a
00:17:09
fire. You might want to be careful. You might want to get that checked." >> Yeah. It's whatever happened here is
00:17:16
stuck with George. And it would make sense because this is only about a week before the fire. But I don't have any
00:17:21
thing to tell me how he took that information to to be if he took it as a threat or just as a oh hey man that's
00:17:31
going to catch fire someday. For about a week leading up to the fire, the solders
00:17:37
would later report seeing an automobile being parked across the street with a man inside this vehicle that seemed to
00:17:45
be watching the house and they thought watching the children getting off of the school bus. The day of the fire, George,
00:17:54
the dad, and two sons, John and Ted, were busy making deliveries. Now, the daughter, one of the daughters,
00:18:01
Marion, was working a shift at a local store. She arrived home armed with gifts for her younger siblings. Now, we go to
00:18:10
10:30 p.m. Jenny the mom announced that, "Hey, it's time for bed." But we have Maurice, Martha, Lewis, Jenny, the
00:18:21
daughter, and Betty. These five kids, they asked if they could stay up late, past the bedtime. They wanted to play
00:18:30
with the toys that they had just received, the gifts they had just received, and listen to the radio.
00:18:36
Marian had already fallen asleep on the couch by this time. Now, it's my understanding
00:18:41
this was a pretty regular occurrence. Many times, she actually preferred to sleep on the couch in the living room
00:18:50
instead of upstairs. Jenny agreed to let the five kids stay up as long as they completed their chores, which included
00:18:58
taking care of the outside animals, closing the blinds to the house, locking the doors, and turning off the lights.
00:19:06
George, Jenny, Sylvia, John, and Ted were all in bed by 11:00. And remember, we have Marion sleeping on the couch.
00:19:16
This is the last time, depending on which report you read, and we'll we'll get into the details as we go, but this
00:19:24
is the last time that a member of the Solder family saw the five children that would be later declared
00:19:31
dead and argued to be missing. At around 12:30 a.m., Jenny wakes up. This is due
00:19:38
to a phone call. When she answered the phone, she said she could hear laughing and talking in the background. And a
00:19:45
woman asked her for someone, you know, by name. Hey, is soando there? And Jenny's like, I don't know who this is.
00:19:53
Jenny informs them that they have the wrong number. And the call ended. >> Yeah. And I think they hear some like
00:20:00
glasses clinking in the back and and some people talking and and and then like you said, some kind of weird
00:20:07
laughter. Before going back to bed, she noticed that the lights were still on and the doors were not locked. She
00:20:14
figured that the children just forgot and locked the doors herself before she then returned to bed. Shortly before
00:20:24
falling back asleep, she said she heard what she thought sounded like something hitting the roof and then rolling off.
00:20:31
She considered waking her husband, but she figured it was likely just a tree limb. And she does go back to sleep.
00:20:40
Now, the reports on this next part vary by the minutes, okay? And I think it'll be clear as to why we don't have this
00:20:50
down pinpointed to the exact minute. Some reports say that this was as early as 1:00 am. Some reports have this as
00:20:57
late as 1:30 a.m. But sometime between 1:00 am and 1:30 a.m., Jenny says that she woke up again, this time to the
00:21:06
smell of smoke, she got up to check it out, and this is when she said that she discovered a fire
00:21:15
in the room that they used as their office. The fire was spreading rapidly and was already blocking her path to the
00:21:27
telephone. She immediately yells to her husband, George. She runs to the living room to
00:21:34
wake up Marion, who then grabbed Sylvia and then yelled up the stairs to wake the sleeping children. She then ran
00:21:44
outside to try and put out the fire from the outside of the house. The two sons,
00:21:51
John and George Jr., heard their mother yelling and immediately jumped out of bed and started down the stairs, yelling
00:21:59
to their other siblings to wake up and get out of the house. As they were going down the stairs, the fire was spreading
00:22:06
so fast that their hair was singed as they were fleeing the home. They made it outside as well, also in hopes to help
00:22:16
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00:28:34
you, Colonel. >> Cheers to you. A holiday cheers to you, Captain. >> We're drinking some spiked eggnog.
00:28:42
>> Well, I'm drinking holiday cheer by Shiner, but uh spiked eggnog does sound fantastic.
00:28:48
>> Always have to be a oneupper. Well, I I don't know if I'm oneupping you. I'm just simply drinking the beer of the
00:28:55
week. But what we have going on now here in the timeline, right, is a family divided. We have about half of the
00:29:05
family outside of the home. The home is ablaze. The portion of the family that's
00:29:10
outside, we have the parents, we have Sylvia, who is the youngest, and then we have some of the older children as well.
00:29:19
two sons and one daughter. They're outside and they are realizing that five of the
00:29:29
soldered kids were presumably still inside of the home >> and they have to assume that they are
00:29:37
trapped upstairs. I do want to note something here. All right, we've already pointed out that
00:29:43
they had 10 children. One of them was not at the home that night. So, we only have nine solder children to be
00:29:49
concerned with with this houseire, right? But the home itself is divided into a girl's room and a boy's room. So,
00:29:58
one part of this story that seems odd to me is we have the two older sons that when they wake up, I would assume if you
00:30:09
have a girl's room and a boy's room that all the boys would be in one room and all the girls would be in the other
00:30:14
room. The two boys are not saying that that that their brothers are seen in the room with them when they wake up and
00:30:21
start running down the stairs. But again, as far as most of this family is concerned, the kids that are missing,
00:30:29
they were all they all stayed up later than the rest of the family, >> right? So now once outside, this is
00:30:37
pretty smart. So remember, it's a twostory home with a full basement. You're outside. You assume that your
00:30:45
other children are trapped upstairs. So George and the two oldest sons, they go George owns this trucking company. They
00:30:54
have two trucks outside. They're going to attempt to start both of these trucks because these are large
00:31:02
vehicles. Their idea is, let's back them up to the house. We'll climb on top of them so we can reach the second story
00:31:10
and we can get the the other kids out. they can hop down on top of the truck and we'll all be fine.
00:31:15
>> Right. So, they're attempting to start the trucks. They are unable to get these
00:31:21
vehicles started. They were all at the same time yelling for the children to get out of the house. Get out of the
00:31:29
house. Wake up. Get out of the house. None of the solders outside of the home say that they heard the kids inside the
00:31:37
house or saw them at any of the windows. Yeah, we have nobody in the family being
00:31:42
able to put them in the house while the fire is happening, whether it's visual or, you know, through audible. But also,
00:31:51
it's not just these these trucks. These trucks are kind of the second attempt because the first attempt was Mr. Solder
00:31:59
had a a ladder that was always placed against the house for some reason. So, he initially went to get up that ladder
00:32:07
and the ladder was gone. Yeah, the again the reports vary here. We have a lot of
00:32:13
moving pieces and parts here and a lot of things are happening very quickly. Some reports state that he went for the
00:32:19
ladder first and then the trucks. This report that that I believe to be I I'm putting
00:32:26
a little more weight into this report for a couple reasons. This report has them going for the trucks first and then
00:32:32
the ladder second, but it doesn't matter, right? >> Yeah. either or it doesn't matter
00:32:36
because the trucks >> it doesn't matter the order because they're unsuccessful attempts both of
00:32:41
them >> but also it's very strange what why are the trucks not working the they were
00:32:46
making deliveries that day now they're not now they're not working that doesn't make any sense and then on top of that
00:32:53
you have this ladder that's you know like Dawson Creek Joey climbing up that ladder to go into Dawson's window and
00:33:01
mysteriously it's missing and they end up finding it almost I want to say half of a football field to a
00:33:08
football field away when they end up finding the the ladder. >> But the big problem is they're not going
00:33:13
to find the ladder that night. >> No. >> So, and here I've changed my mind, Captain. Pass me some of that eggnog. I
00:33:20
can I can have both. It's Christmas. It's Christmas. Damn it. >> I'll show you where you can put that.
00:33:26
>> We have George. He runs over to the staircase that goes to the second story. It has a landing and on that landing is
00:33:38
a window. So his idea is all right, let's go around to that window to the landing on the staircase and let's
00:33:46
attempt to break that glass. Here's another attempt to try to get to the upstairs of the home to get to the
00:33:52
children that he that everybody has to presume are trapped upstairs due to the fire having blocked the stairs,
00:34:00
>> right? He ends up cutting his arm pretty badly, breaking the glass to this window. Uh the stairs were already
00:34:08
engulfed in flames at this point and he could not enter the home through this window. And this is that part of the
00:34:17
story where it has him looking for the ladder. The family has always stood by this statement that the ladder was
00:34:26
always on the side of the house, but for whatever mysterious reason on this night
00:34:31
when they seemed to need it the most, they could not find it. It was not there in its standard location. So, Marian,
00:34:40
she runs to the home of the neighbors, this is Mr. and Mrs. Davis, to call the fire department, but they were unable to
00:34:48
reach the operator. All right. Now much to do has been made about the operator and other not being able to get a hold
00:34:56
of certain emergency services. We have to think about and keep in mind what the phone systems were like back in 1945.
00:35:06
Number one, and number two, keep in mind that it is in the middle of the night, Christmas Eve, going into Christmas
00:35:12
morning. I'm sorry, but it's and and and it's unfortunate for this situation that we couldn't get help out
00:35:19
to the Solder family home faster, but you know, people are people are partying, people are drinking, people
00:35:29
are sleeping one off. This is this is really a bad bad night for something to go horribly wrong.
00:35:36
>> I believe the fire department's like what 2.5 miles or something like that away from the family home. While this is
00:35:43
all going on or or just before the family starts to flee the home, we have some people that are driving
00:35:50
past the the home. So, the home is right near Route 21. So, the report is that they're driving
00:35:59
past the home. I'm assuming they're on this Route 21. They say around, this is Mr. Thomas Smith. Mr. Thomas W. Smith
00:36:08
says that around 1:00 a.m. he was driving past this location while on his way home from work. He says he saw the
00:36:16
fire. This Thomas Smith must be like Bob Cratchet working for Ebenezer here. He's
00:36:21
got to work till till midnight or so on on Christmas Eve. Well, he's really seeing a mistress, but he couldn't tell
00:36:28
the papers that >> he decides, hey, like >> he was seeing his second family and [laughter] he had to tell them that he
00:36:38
had to work all late on Christmas. >> He says he sees this house fire, so he decides he's got to report this. He goes
00:36:45
to this beer place known as Crass's Park, operated by Jeff Atkins and Lonnie Johnson. This is where he tried to call
00:36:52
the fire department, but he was told the phone was out of order. He was going to
00:36:57
go in there, hey, I need to call the fire department. Jeff Atkins and Lonnie Johnson, one or both of them informed
00:37:04
this man that the phone is out of order. So, no luck there. Mr. Smith then drove
00:37:09
to Fagatville and finally succeeded in reaching the fire chief. Now, I I do want to point
00:37:17
out you you could be absolutely accurate on the distance between the home and the
00:37:22
fire department. One thing to note here is that the solder home, while it's regularly reported that it's Fagatville,
00:37:32
West Virginia, that's that's not wrong, but but the detailed reports will state that they live just about 2 miles north
00:37:40
of of Fagatville. But when you're talking about emergency services, that's where they're going to be coming from
00:37:47
this Fagatville. So this Mr. Smith, he finally reaches the fire chief. The fire chief is FJ Morris. According to this
00:37:56
report, Smith is told from Morris, from the fire chief that we've already received a call about this fire. Now,
00:38:04
it's alleged that Mr. Smith had to drive to the chief's house rather than the fire department in order to reach him
00:38:12
and that when he arrived the chief was in the middle of a poker game again allegedly,
00:38:17
>> right? >> You probably should say that about your statement about where Mr. Smith was
00:38:22
earlier that night. >> Oh, it was a joke. >> Mr. Smith states that the fire chief
00:38:27
responded, "We know about it." And when asked if he would go to the fire, he stated, "Didn't know." Mr. Smith then
00:38:35
informed him that there could be children trapped in in in this burning house and to which he says Mr. Morris
00:38:43
gave no response. Mr. Smith then returned to the scene of the fire to find the house destroyed. He then went
00:38:50
home went back around 8:00 a.m. about the same time that the fire department to decided to show up.
00:38:57
>> Yeah. So it took him like what over 7 and 1/2 hours. But also, it's like shows
00:39:02
you how bad people can have a gambling problem. Are you going to show up to the fire? Don't know. Well, we'll see if I'm
00:39:10
still in the poker game or not. After the visit from Mr. Smith, Lonnie Johnson, and his business partner Jeff Atkins,
00:39:19
handful of other people. So, we have Peggy Price, Virginia Buckland, Everett Buckland, Lester Cook, and an unnamed
00:39:26
taxi driver. They arrive at the scene of this fire. They stated to officials that they did
00:39:32
not see any children appear at any windows. It was later learned that the phone call came from one of these women
00:39:40
that were at the bar and the women claimed that it was just a wrong number. Okay, so a little clarity here. We're
00:39:45
talking about with this FJ Morris, the fire chief, saying, "We already received a call about it." They're not talking
00:39:52
about that call. One of the persons in this group is saying that I was the one that accidentally called the solder home
00:40:03
and it was in fact a wrong number according to this person that I was trying to reach somebody somebody else.
00:40:10
The family remembers that the Christmas lights inside the house were still on even
00:40:17
while the fire was burning. >> Right. The solders were forced to wait inside the cab of the truck to escape
00:40:26
the bitter cold that night while waiting for the fire department to arrive. So, they're essentially left there stranded
00:40:34
almost, right? And you you don't want to leave because half of your family still
00:40:38
inside the home. You have trucks that are not starting and you're hoping and praying that the fire department gets
00:40:44
there ASAP. There's different reports, but a lot of people say that this fire only lasted 45
00:40:52
minutes to an hour. So, but it was still probably smoldering is what I'm guessing
00:40:58
by the time the the fire department took their good old time getting there. >> Yes, you're exactly right. So, according
00:41:05
to the newspapers published just days after the fire, the fire department arrived around 9:00 a.m. Again, we've
00:41:13
already reported that FJ Morris later would state that they arrived at 8:00 a.m. But regardless, exactly what the
00:41:20
captain is pointing out, by the time the fire department is on the scene, the entire house had been burned and reduced
00:41:28
to ashes. When he arrived, the fire chief stated that the basement was a glowing bed of embers.
00:41:37
And he and his men then laid a line of hose to stream some water and try to cool everything down. Right? You're
00:41:46
trying to cool everything down. Once they're able to do this, we have nine persons that are going to search through
00:41:53
the rubble. Okay? So the searchers of this debris of the house that once was will be FJ Morris the fire chief, John
00:42:03
Solder, Emanuel Moles, Bill Bickford, Jimmy Arthur, Ted Solder, Arthur Moles, Carl Bragg, and Garnett Arthur. So two
00:42:16
of the Solder family members are involved in this search. Left in ruins was the house. And in the ruins of the
00:42:26
house, we find a stove, charred utensils, fruit jars, bedsp springs, toys, and two steel drums.
00:42:38
>> Yeah. I think the point here that people try to make when they're they're talking
00:42:42
about what's left is that not everything was disintegrated. >> Yes. And that's going to come into play
00:42:50
very importantly. I believe with the later >> findings and statements by >> the >> for a lack of a better term, let's say
00:43:00
experts. >> Yeah. Me and you are not uh the biggest fan of fire experts. >> No. No. And and I think it be it comes
00:43:09
from some of the cases that we've covered and then the changing diagnosis of the fire and how it was started,
00:43:18
where it was started, if it was arson, if it wasn't. >> I mean, we're very pro first responders.
00:43:25
We're very pro firefighters just as far as the investigation goes. I think it's also too like would be a very
00:43:33
difficult thing to try to study because you have so many factors. >> I think that they get it right 90ome% of
00:43:41
the time. But I think what you're spot on about here, my friend, is that sometimes [ __ ] just goes down weird or
00:43:50
happens the way that it's not supposed to. And it's really difficult to try to make heads or tails of stuff sometimes.
00:43:58
And fire is its own living breathing thing, right? >> It's fire breathing. >> So there you go.
00:44:06
>> Yeah. But this is a weird case though because one, it's so old and so I think some of
00:44:12
the information is kind of the telephone effect and then because it is so old and
00:44:17
so mysterious, so many people have covered it. So then, you know, some of that story becomes part of the story
00:44:25
becomes other people's speculation. And it's just so bizarre. I mean, think about this. We have some of the family
00:44:31
members up, some of the family members not up. We have two locations, the upstairs downstairs. So, we have a
00:44:38
separation of these individuals. But then we have things that don't make sense. We have this bump in the night.
00:44:45
We have this mysterious phone call. Is that a part of something? We have these threats happening. Then when the fire
00:44:51
starts, okay, nobody sees these children. Are they even in the house? Where's the ladder? Why aren't the
00:44:58
trucks working? Why does it take the fire department so long to get there? It there's so many bizarre things already.
00:45:07
>> Yes. And I think that, you know, we we talk about how each different layer can complicate a
00:45:15
situation. I think that unfortunately something that we all many many of us look forward to Christmas I think
00:45:24
complicates the situation even more. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately >> I think because it's Christmas this is
00:45:30
one of the reasons why we still talk about it. Yes. It's very bizarre, very tragic. And then you want to know what
00:45:36
happened to these children. Are are they dead? Did they die in the fire or are they missing? In 1945
00:45:44
there was over 10,000 deaths and and that's a estimated number because they don't have the the data that you know it
00:45:54
wasn't probably that data was probably not scrutinized over as much as it is now. So we probably have more exact
00:46:02
numbers today. But that's a lot of deaths by fires. But this one, you know, is very uh mysterious. Well, and as said
00:46:12
in the trailer, there was 11 deaths and fires uh that night, that exact night. So,
00:46:21
>> when you have the the fire chief playing poker, not giving a [ __ ] if he shows up
00:46:27
or not, I mean, that's a real douchebag. Are you going to go to the fire? Eh, maybe. Don't know. So, also found in the
00:46:37
rubble, we have damaged and undamaged coins, US currency, and we have what is most oftentimes
00:46:46
reported to be a dictionary. This report states part of a phone book was also uh
00:46:53
recovered. So, a dictionary or phone book, either way, a a portion of a book was recovered as well. Around 10:00 a.m.
00:47:06
we have Chief Morris who informs the solders that the ruins had been searched as if with a fine tooth comb, but that
00:47:15
no remains of the children were found. Okay, we're at the 10:00 a.m. marker here. I do want to point something out
00:47:22
here. We while while the reports state that the fire department was on scene at 9:00 a.m., the fire chief claims they
00:47:30
were there at 8:00 a.m. What we do know is the state troopers were at the scene at 900 a.m. and when
00:47:39
they arrived, the fire department is already there. I wanted to throw that into the mix as well. Now, we're at
00:47:46
10:00 a.m. This is when the chief informs them that no remains of your children are found. And he says to
00:47:56
the solders, "You, let's you're going to want to grab some dirt, scoop up some dirt, place it in a box,
00:48:04
and bury it and hold a funeral. Your children have passed in the fire. They were taken by the fire,
00:48:10
>> which I think is a very odd thing to say when you have no evidence of it." So,
00:48:14
I'm I'm I try to go through this in a linear fashion, but it gets a little bit difficult to worry that we may miss
00:48:22
something because as the captain has pointed out, 80 years, this Christmas marks 80 years since this horrible
00:48:31
tragedy. I want to make sure that we don't leave anything out because there's been a lot that has happened since the
00:48:38
Christmas and 45 to date regarding this case and right it we get reminded about this
00:48:48
case every Christmas but the other part of the reason why this case is continue to fascinate people it's the sheer
00:48:55
mystery of it and you have you have folks on either side and you also have things that are suggestive of that,
00:49:04
well, maybe the kids weren't even there when the fire started, the the missing kids, and then you have things that are
00:49:10
suggestive that yes, they were >> and they they did they were taken by the fire. So I before we move on too much
00:49:19
further, I do want to state that 3 years later in 1948, Chief Morris admits to a
00:49:25
newspaper that he actually did not do what he would call a thorough search of the ruins on that day. Instead, he said
00:49:34
he only searched where the beds could have been. and he says he stopped short of a
00:49:42
thorough search because George ordered him to th this is one example in my opinion of folks pointing the finger at
00:49:52
each other blaming one another. We do have other situations where people in official capacity do blame George for
00:50:02
for why this remains a mystery still to this day. >> Yeah. But we we see that in many cases.
00:50:08
I mean, people blame John Ramsay for the for the killing of his daughter not being solved. I think there's evidence
00:50:16
that George did a lot to try to figure out what happened. And and also like, okay, they searched one time, but I
00:50:23
guarantee you other people, whether it's family members or just nosy individuals, went
00:50:30
through that rubble as well. And [clears throat] like you said, 80 years later, where's
00:50:37
the evidence that they were in the fire? >> Yes. And we should also point out here
00:50:41
um some some of these time markers, right? Because if in regards to the search, depending on what time the fire
00:50:48
department actually did show up. What we do know is at 10:00 a.m. is when they stopped the search. So if they were
00:50:55
there at 9, that's one hour. If they were there at 8, that gave them a max of two hours to search, minus also however
00:51:05
long it took to cool down the embers to the point where they could start going through them.
00:51:09
>> Right. >> To me, that's an inadequate search regardless. And it sounds like the chief
00:51:15
eventually admits to that and agrees to my statement. >> Well, and I I believe that they would
00:51:21
have found something. And I think when you look at even individuals being cremated and you talk to people that do
00:51:28
that, there's normally fragments or even more than fragments left from bone or teeth or whatever. And we see none of
00:51:38
that. So, and and that would be temperatures up into like I believe like over 2,000°.
00:51:47
So, I don't know if the fire ever got that hot, but again, I don't know if it's an exact science because where
00:51:53
where did the fire start? I don't know. Why did the fire start? I don't know. The Faget County prosecutor, Faget
00:52:02
County Prosecuting attorney Carl Vickers was informed by Chief Morris that no remains were found. So, he decided to
00:52:10
hold a coroner's inquest at the location. So on site at the fire they're going to hold this inquest. Back then
00:52:21
inquests were normally held at the scene of a crime or from my understanding at the scene of a crime or incident where
00:52:28
the conclusions were likely to be obvious. So the coroner's inquest consisted of six persons. Five of which
00:52:38
we should point out have personal ties to this Fenzo Jonatello. Now the members were as follows. One his
00:52:48
cousin and business partner CG Jonatello who was named the foreman of this jury right the jury for this inquest. We also
00:52:58
have fire chief FJ Morris who is a friend and bookkeeper for Jonatello. We have Floyd C. Shuck,
00:53:10
bank bookkeeper for Jonatello. JD Schultz, member of several clubs with the Jonatello and other members, as well
00:53:19
as president of CG Jonatello's company, which is Fagatville Savings and Loan, County Clerk Lacy Neely, and Jackson
00:53:30
Theodore Jennings, who was an employee of George Sauders. The jury quickly returned the verdict that the children
00:53:38
had perished in the fire due to smoke suffocation and that the fire was accidental. A second inquest was held
00:53:46
the following day, December 26, where Clinetti Jonatella reported that quote, "No parts of the five missing children
00:53:55
were found in the debris of the fire." End quote. The verdict of accidental fire was based on the allegation that
00:54:03
large quantities of oil, gas, and coal were kept in the basement of the home, but George Solder insisted that none of
00:54:12
that was kept in the basement. The police report only mentions John Solder, stating that one or two truck motors
00:54:20
were currently being stored in the basement at that time. Prosecuting attorney Vickers was quoted as saying to
00:54:26
a local newspaper that the that was published on December 26, 1945 that there was nothing left to investigate.
00:54:34
It was complete destruction and the jury rendered I think the only possible verdict under the circumstances. He told
00:54:42
another newspaper, "So complete was the destruction that any investigation as to
00:54:47
the cause was impossible and the only deduction which could be made is that the fire was caused by a short circuit."
00:54:56
Let's let that ruminate for a minute, right? Cuz that seems a little talking out of both sides of your face, right?
00:55:04
It's a strange statement to say that the damage was so bad, the level of destruction here is so incredible that
00:55:11
it was impossible, his word, impossible to determine the cause of the fire, but then to claim it was caused by defective
00:55:19
wiring almost in the same sentence. >> Yeah, it's very bizarre. And then again, it's like you wonder if these
00:55:27
individuals heard anything about the the insurance agent or did any of them hear
00:55:34
about the the the handyman and then just go, "Well, they're not talking about that on on the day of the
00:55:42
fire or the day after." I mean, you have George in the hospital, you have the family gone. Uh, and we'll get into that
00:55:51
as we continue on. >> Yeah. Or is it just well that's the simplest answer? >> Well, that that's I think I think that
00:55:59
could be the case, right? This just may be a case of civilians with no real understanding of the situation coming to
00:56:07
a reasonable explanation that makes sense to them in the moment based on life experiences. I mean, you have Yes,
00:56:15
you do have the the fire chief. I would like to know the how the the workings of
00:56:21
the fire department back in 1945 in Fagatville. Was this uh was this a paid position? Are these voluntary
00:56:31
right >> positions? What's his experience beyond that? Because we one thing we mentioned when
00:56:38
we went through the roster of our jury for this inquest, he's he's a bookkeeper. He also works as a
00:56:44
bookkeeper. though is this is this hey I'm a bookkeeper but I also when I'm available I help people I attempt to
00:56:52
help people or or or at least put out fires. The other thing though too is you can look at this same situation, right?
00:56:59
A jury of six at this inquest and go, "Well, is this just civilians with no real understanding coming
00:57:07
to what they believed at the time was a reasonable explanation for what happened
00:57:12
or do we have one or two men leading the group down the wrong road?" >> Yeah. And cuz how many times have you
00:57:22
been a part of a situation where there's not a bunch of bright bulbs in the room
00:57:28
and they just kind of default to whoever is leading the conversation. >> Every time I have my fantasy football
00:57:35
draft, [laughter] >> of course, the Solders did not agree with the findings. They didn't agree
00:57:44
with the inquest and their ruling. John Solder told the police and newspaper that they believe the fire was
00:57:51
intentionally set, that it was arson. As far as what's going on at the scene, after we
00:57:59
talked about the search, some of the members, the older solder boys were involved in the search of the rubble.
00:58:08
Now, it's believed that George and Jenny, mom and dad, remained at the scene until the majority of the search
00:58:15
had been done. But at some point, George, he has to leave. Remember, we talked about his injury. He had to be
00:58:21
sent to the hospital due to this large gash >> he had on his arm uh from breaking that window. And on top
00:58:30
of that, that he's like inconsolable. He's he's once he's released from the hospital, he was placed on bed rest due
00:58:39
to shock, doctor's orders. That morning, Jenny, she takes the remaining children, minus John, to a
00:58:48
family member's house in Smithers. Her her parents and extended family, remember we mentioned that she had five
00:58:55
siblings. Most of them are still living in Smithers. So, they go there so they have somewhere to stay. Dad's in the
00:59:02
hospital and John is left at the scene and it's stated that he stayed behind until
00:59:10
officials decided to leave the scene. So, he's there until until the officials leave the scene. A lot of
00:59:17
times when a case is covered by a lot of people, that doesn't interest me as much. I want
00:59:24
to hear about the case I've never heard about. But this case is very fascinating
00:59:28
because you could sum up the case in probably a 10-minute conversation, but you'd leave the individual wanting to
00:59:37
know more. But it's also a case that if you dissect every weird, bizarre scenario within this case, you could
00:59:47
talk about this case for a month and not get tired of it. The basement captain of
00:59:53
the home was filled in on December 29th, 1945. This by Jenny's brother, Jimmy Cypriyani, using fill dirt and a
01:00:05
bulldozer. The reason for this is that the parents, George and Jenny, decided to fill in the
01:00:14
basement because they did not want what they believe to be their children's final resting place to be trampled on.
01:00:24
So, the basement was filled and then turned into a memorial garden or or going to be turned into a memorial
01:00:31
garden for the children. On December 30th, 1945, despite no remains being found, death certificates
01:00:41
were made for the children, citing the cause of death as smoke suffocation. So, let's take a moment here to
01:00:49
recognize that regardless of what everyone or we end up thinking happened here, we we've got five little kids,
01:00:58
five of the 10 solder children gone. Gone are Maurice age 14, Martha 12, Lewis 9, Jenny 8, and Betty 5. That were
01:01:12
they killed in a horrific Christmas fire or were they stolen away before the flames took the house? That has been the
01:01:21
question for 80 years now. This Christmas, as said, will be the 80year anniversary, a sad one, of that tragic
01:01:30
day. While this absolutely devastated the Solder family, especially the the parents, and we have seen tragedies
01:01:38
destroy so many families in these stories that we cover. We have seen murders lead to divorce, separation,
01:01:46
families torn apart. But that does not seem to be the case here. Somehow through all of this, the solders
01:01:53
remained strong. They remained tight. They became hypervigilant and determined, determined to get answers.
01:02:01
George and Jenny were somehow convinced that if they fought long and hard enough, if they spent every dime they
01:02:08
had, if they spent every sleepless night and waking moment, that they would find
01:02:14
their children. And they were willing to go to the ends of the earth to do so. [music]
01:02:35
Thank you so much for joining us here in the garage. Stick around for part two of
01:02:39
this bizarre, mysterious case. Until then, >> a toast and a cheers. And be good, be
01:02:44
kind, and don't move. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Having the right people in your corner
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