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yeah BW areu in beerun you need more True Crime garage for your earballs yes you do yes you do you're a little bored
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you need more to listen to and we just did a great episode on patreon and apple podcast subscription on the Menendez
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brothers biopic so you want to check that out and Colonel that's enough of the business all right everybody gather
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around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] [Applause] when it comes to the profiling of this
00:04:17
particular killer did you factor in or attempt to use any geological profiling when try attempting to unmask
00:04:29
as they say the Zodiac because typically we need at least three geological markers or locations and here with
00:04:36
zodiac we absolutely have four at the least I mean I mean we have our four attack and murder locations yeah um
00:04:45
Geographic called profiling something that uh has emerged in the 1990s looking at places that uh perpetrators live or
00:04:54
work in trying to from the GE geographic location of the attacks figure out where they are
00:05:03
comfortable with where they spend time uh some work has been done into the geographic profiling of the zodiac uh it
00:05:11
may not be useful in some crimes some crime spre it not um the Zodiac may have been tied to Southern California crime
00:05:22
scenes in which case we say well um does this say something about the individual
00:05:29
it is possible that the Zodiac was clever enough and criminally sophisticated to outsmart Geographic
00:05:37
profiling there's some thought that he may not have been living in California continuously during the crime spree um
00:05:45
for instance while the attacks occurred in in in Greater frequency the letters that
00:05:52
he spent were that he sent were were sent in different um different groupings different clusters letters were sent a
00:06:01
week or 10 days apart and that gives the idea that maybe the Zodiac came into town wrote a letter waited a week wrote
00:06:09
another letter and then took off and wasn't actually living in California if that's the case then Geographic
00:06:14
profiling would be precisely useless but the work that I've seen pinpoints the zodiac is living somewhere around
00:06:23
valo um maps have been generated of Darker regions of where he more like Al lived or worked based on where the crime
00:06:32
scenes took place um but that's kind of obvious because the first two crime scenes took place in or near valo what
00:06:41
what seems to be occurring with the zodiac is a progression toward greater visibility in other words he started in
00:06:49
the north bay area in uh valo which was a rather small town at the time moved to
00:06:56
Lake beresa which was even more remote so the early attacks took place in very vacant
00:07:04
remote areas and then moved to San Francisco because of the need some need for publicity where he could get uh a
00:07:12
greater visibility through uh Bay Area press and B the Bay Area Police Department if that was his motive then
00:07:22
maybe Geographic profiling says less about this type of criminal than it would about a criminal who was trying to
00:07:28
keep secret trying to not get caught something like the the Golden State killer or Ted Bundy or any number of
00:07:36
other serial killers who don't look for publicity so the zodiac is changing victims
00:07:44
locations and the manner in which he attacks his victims is is that is that to create
00:07:53
this overall um threat to society meaning this can happen anywhere anytime with any object and it doesn't matter if
00:08:05
you're a man or woman everybody in society could possibly be a victim that's a reasonable conclusion that uh
00:08:14
that seems to be um starting in a remote area and ending up in downtown or in in
00:08:21
the confines of San Francisco give the impression that anybody is vulnerable and that may have been either part of
00:08:29
his message or part of his intent to bring fear to everybody everywhere Mark in your book expose exposed you
00:08:39
expose who you believe the true identity of the Zodiac Killer the person you suspect of being the Killer part of
00:08:48
identifying the Zodiac as you include is how and why the Zodiac moniker originated so could you take us let's
00:08:56
start there with this part of our conversation how and why did the Zodiac moniker originate okay thank you for
00:09:06
mentioning the third book of my Trilogy exposed the Zodiac revealed in my first two books I do not deal with any
00:09:14
potential individuals the the only person I mentioned was Arthur Lee Allen because he was the the the police's
00:09:22
suspect early on in the investigation and the only one that they were able to look into in any great depth in the with
00:09:29
suspicions of being the Zodiac I deal with the the moniker of the zodiac the the name the zodiac what I found really
00:09:37
interesting in part of my research was that every other serial killer is given a name based on what they do where they
00:09:46
do it maybe how they do it may Jack the Ripper the hillside stranglers the uh um
00:09:53
BTK bind them torture them kill them each one of these names we know why that IND idual was given the name it it says
00:10:02
something about them but with the Zodiac suddenly we have this serial killer who
00:10:07
has a name and we don't know why this individual has this name in fact the Zodiac was given three monor monikers
00:10:15
within the Press prior to him giving us his own moniker he was called the cipher
00:10:22
Slayer or the cipher killer or the code killer each of these could have been picked up upon on picked up on by the by
00:10:31
the Killer and used but he didn't in August of 69 he sent a letter with the very terrifying opening line This is the
00:10:40
Zodiac speaking now what did that mean it sounds like a a Godlike pronouncement or possibly something that an airline
00:10:50
pilot would say this is your captain speaking uh it was an odd phrase especially because the Zodiac was never
00:10:58
known to actually say it in the instances that we have when he made telephone calls to police departments or
00:11:06
when he spoke to Brian and Cecilia at Lake barasa he never used that phrase he never said this is the Zodiac speaking
00:11:13
the only time he used that phrase was in a letter so he wasn't actually speaking
00:11:17
he was writing well it proved to be such a valuable tool for him that after his first use of it every other letter
00:11:25
essentially every other letter that he wrote following that time began with that opening catchphrase this is the
00:11:31
Zodiac speaking it uh it it brought palpable fear to individuals people would joke about it
00:11:39
in the neighborhood in the communities that he attacked um but the question is where did it come from people suspected
00:11:47
that maybe he had an interest in astrology um Robert greith the author of zodiac said that all of the attacks took
00:11:54
place within three days of celestial events in in in the heavens the problem with that is there are so many events in
00:12:03
the heavens that uh pretty much every date in the calendar is within three days of some winter solstice or phase of
00:12:12
the moon or whatever um so it remains a mystery what he meant by this is the Zodiac speaking other
00:12:22
than to terrify people or why he chose the name the Zodiac to identify himself and then
00:12:29
along with that he provided a symbol which is a Crosshair symbol a cross surrounded by a circle and some people
00:12:38
have said that well that just that's just a symbol referring to zodiac or all 12 signs of the zodiac but why the
00:12:46
killer gravitated toward it is not entirely clear in fact it's debated to this day to me this killer comes off as
00:12:55
he's not interested in your thoughts or not interested in society's thoughts and
00:13:01
so you're not going to give me a name I can only give myself a name does that does that make any sense at all yeah
00:13:10
yeah and then and it's not unusual BTK gave himself his name the Son of Sam David burkowitz in New York City gave
00:13:18
himself a name even though he was called the 44 caliber killer in the Press but it says something about an individual
00:13:26
who refuses a name given to him in the Press comes up with his own name but with burkowitz and with Raider we know
00:13:35
what the names meant and how it functioned in their lives with the Zodiac we we just don't know there's
00:13:41
been some susp let's say some suspects that that is is laughable and you can hear me cracking myself up there
00:13:49
for a second but uh I think it I want to say that it started you know I'm of a certain age so maybe it started well
00:13:56
before this and I'm just not aware but when I became aware of it would have been about the mid to to late 90s where
00:14:05
it it maybe it's something in the water out there in California but at some point it got to be where everybody and
00:14:14
their cousin had a uh an uncle a stepfather or their own F their biological father people coming out of
00:14:24
the woodwork saying oh my dad or my uncle stepfather was the Zodiac and why and a lot of times it really boiled down
00:14:32
to like well he looks like the composite sketch and he was a really he was a really mean guy news flash for you all
00:14:41
the zodiac is Way Beyond really mean guy okay it takes it takes it takes a whole
00:14:48
another level of hate and evil to do what he did and then go out and do it again this whole thing with and I feel
00:14:55
like I just keep waiting for the next person to come forward saying that it's their that it was their father um well
00:15:02
it reminds me a lot of the Black Dalia it's like yeah if if your father wasn't old enough to be the Black Dalia
00:15:10
murderer then then he's the Zodiac well there were even some that if that wasn't
00:15:15
good enough for you my uncle not only killed the kill was the Zodiac Killer but also was the Black Dalia killer as
00:15:24
well yeah just to be clear in your book exposed you're not saying your father your Uncle stepfather anybody like that
00:15:30
had anything to do with these killings no no I have relatives who were not always the nicest people but no I have
00:15:36
no serial killers in my family as far as I know person that is often mentioned the most and this goes back to Robert
00:15:45
Grey Smith's book zodiac unmasked and then the the movie that came out what was that 2006 or seven Zodiac movie
00:15:54
Seven which I I I don't know what you're you know we don't have to play ciso and
00:15:58
eert here but I I loved the movie and it's um it's rare or at least it used to be for a long time that a True Crime
00:16:07
Story made its way to a blockbuster picture like that being a true crime buff I I always enjoyed when that
00:16:15
happened I thought that they they carried it out very well but Arthur Lee Allen is the suspect who is often
00:16:25
discussed starting with Grace Smith's book and again in the movie movie as well talk about Arthur Lee Allen and and
00:16:33
and maybe give us even a little bit of a a short pros and cons list for for Mr Allen why is he good why does he make a
00:16:42
good zodiac suspect what why does he make a bad zodiac suspect well I uh love the movie Zodiac I've seen it dozens of
00:16:50
times probably because of the content of the movie uh it's it's a subject near and dear to my heart uh it particularly
00:16:59
first half hour of the movie is very accurately done there there's some Hollywood
00:17:04
Liberties done to that that aren't exactly correct but Fincher did a lot of effort into put a lot of effort into
00:17:12
making sure the costumes were accurate and um much of the dialogue was correct or reasonably correct the first half
00:17:21
hour of that movie gives a very accurate portrayal of the different attacks that
00:17:27
are recorded on film the rest of the movie is dialogue driven and so many people find it a little bit slow and the
00:17:34
fact that the Zodiac was never identified leaves the movie with kind of a an empty ending but I think that's all
00:17:40
part of the experience that who is the Zodiac and why did he kill why did he appear why did he disappear that's all
00:17:49
part of the Mystique but with respect to Arthur Le Allen he was the the police's uh only
00:17:57
real suspect in the early years of the case he was brought to the attention of uh police departments in the early in 69
00:18:06
while the attacks were still taking place but why precisely he was brought to the attention of the police is not
00:18:12
exactly known we don't know from police reports who turned them in and why but arth Allen was kind of a weird
00:18:20
individual so it's not surprising that he was turned into the police throughout the Bay Area every
00:18:28
person who was a little bit different got looked at in fact uh many many people turned in their husband or their
00:18:36
father or their cousin or their ex-husband or their ex-boyfriend saying oh they must be the Zodiac so thousands
00:18:43
of people were looked into but Arthur Lee Allen seemed to have some connections to the case that the police
00:18:50
could not Overlook for one he wore a watch that had a Crosshair symbol on it a zodiac
00:18:57
symbol that was a zodiac Seawolf watch and very few places in human society the word zodiac and the
00:19:07
Crosshair symbol occur together well they occur together on the watch that he wore um so maybe he
00:19:17
uh maybe he was drawn to that symbol for that reason uh it was also uh somebody came forward a a former coworker and
00:19:26
former friend of Arthur Le Allen came forward to the police and said you know Arthur Lee Allen claimed that he wanted
00:19:32
to kill people and he wanted to call himself the Zodiac and they he would kill strangers so that they would never
00:19:38
connect it with him those are the reasons why he was looked into a number of people were absolutely convinced that
00:19:45
Arthur Le Allen was guilty they just couldn't prove it one of whom was Robert Grey Smith who wrote the book zodiac and
00:19:53
then the follow-up book zodiac un masted and it was from those two books that the
00:19:57
movie Zodiac was comprised so um Al also Dave tusy the lead investigator for sfpd
00:20:07
homicide who headed up the Zodiac uh investigation for nine years he was convinced that Arthur Le Allen was
00:20:15
responsible but he just couldn't prove it part of the reason that Arthur Le Allen became the only suspect is because
00:20:23
nobody else really fit the bill and they had nobody else to look at and so he was
00:20:28
given an awful lot of attention um part of the problem for investigators was the fact that Arthur
00:20:35
Lee Allen enjoyed the attention like the Zodiac he seemed to enjoy needling the police which was not an uncommon Pastime
00:20:43
back in the 1960s so it it it seems in the larger picture that Arthur Le Allen was
00:20:51
throwing the police department's red meat of information that seemed to implicate him in the crimes that he
00:20:59
might be responsible and so that only tormented them more and wanted to look into his
00:21:05
life and his activities more at least two search warrants were executed on his on properties of
00:21:13
his um but no case was ever put together and it's my suspicion that uh no case could be put together because it just
00:21:22
wasn't him uh none of the forensics matched but at the same time the police were never absolutely certain that the
00:21:30
fingerprints or later DNA shred or um other information uh implicated him he's not the type of person who would be
00:21:43
the Zodiac at least by my mind in my my research Arthur Le Allen spent three years in custody for child
00:21:52
molestation well people with a sexual interest in children do not go out and kill heterosexual couples engaged in
00:22:01
sexual behavior in lovers Lanes areas it's just not the way serial killers think and it's not the way they work
00:22:08
serial killers tend to stay within their own community in other words a gay serial killer will kill gay victims a
00:22:16
heterosexual individual will kill heterosexual victims and a child molester is if they were to become a serial
00:22:25
killer will kill children for me a big reason that I was able to exclude Arthur Le Allen was because of his personality
00:22:33
as I have gotten to know the cases the attacks the letters choices that the Zodiac made in various times and the
00:22:41
contact that he had with people I came to the conclusion that he was a very cerebral person a person who was very
00:22:49
quiet who was um calculating but very hesitant in front of other people um there were great
00:22:57
stretches of time time that uh Brian hartell recorded at Lake beresa reported that the Zodiac didn't seem to know what
00:23:06
he was doing and didn't know what to say next um the the police officers who received the phone calls from the Zodiac
00:23:15
said that he appeared to be reading from a script that it wasn't a natural conversation that he was having in fact
00:23:22
he spoke over at least one of the individuals that he was talking with he wasn't conversing with them
00:23:28
that says that that's completely the opposite of the idea that we get from Arthur Lee Allen's
00:23:36
personality Arthur Le Allen had a kind of a verbal diarrhea where he would talk talk talk talk and he wouldn't want to
00:23:43
talk about the Zodiac or he wouldn't want to talk about anything that he was involved in but he would he would tell
00:23:48
talk about something Arthur Le Allen was the type of person who was able to get attention when he needed it when he was
00:23:56
in large groups of people or even small groups of people he would do something to impress other people whether it be U
00:24:04
he was a skilled diver a skilled swimmer but when he couldn't get positive attention he knew how to get negative
00:24:11
attention by making threats by appearing scary by by doing something outrageous that's exactly the opposite type of
00:24:20
person that the Zodiac has revealed himself to be in his attacks and in his letters it didn't help that Allen
00:24:28
would play into this idea that he's the Zodiac or suspected of being the Zodiac right he he almost very
00:24:38
boisterous would tell people I'm being investigated I'm they're looking at me because they think I'm the Zodiac and he
00:24:47
seemed to get an excitement or at least get something out of telling people that
00:24:56
and he he didn't mind as strange as it sounds he didn't mind being a air quotes zodiac suspect no he reveled in it um he
00:25:07
told people he was being investigated as zodiac which he was but he also told people he was incarcerated for three
00:25:13
years in a tasad because he was the Zodiac well he wasn't or at least that's not why he uh was incarcerated for three
00:25:22
years but that's what he told people he shared the trait with the Zodiac of like
00:25:28
to um um needle the police and U and get attention and and be this the center of
00:25:36
focus but that doesn't make him the [Music] Zodiac looking for Toys that'll get the
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upgrade your selling today [Music] I think of because of what he really was I mean he was a pedophile and and I
00:27:12
unfortunately made the mistake of reading the police reports on those the charges that he faced and the
00:27:19
accusations from the the boy and from from the things that he was accused of and let's be
00:27:27
clear convicted of he was a pretty hardcore pedophile and and especially with this this one particular victim but
00:27:36
I think that he I think that he enjoyed telling people that he's being investigated as the Zodiac or was locked
00:27:42
up for being the Zodiac because it it it was an ability it was a way of hiding or
00:27:48
masking who him being a pedophile which is I mean one the most disgusting criminal that that many can think of and
00:27:57
so I think that he thought that this I think he wanted people to think that he was something Superior some kind of
00:28:03
mystery something interesting I at the end of the day I think he wanted people to think that he was anything other than
00:28:10
what he really was and that was this pervert pedophile that's reasonable yeah what are your thoughts on I believe they
00:28:18
came out in 2021 the the case Breakers 40 independent investigators got together did their research and then
00:28:28
came out saying that they identified the Zodiac as Gary post yeah i' I've not uh
00:28:35
had real good feelings about the case Breakers I believe the group has grown to more than 50 now and these are um a
00:28:42
collection of people who have been in law enforcement or been investigators or whatnot retired police
00:28:51
departments and they have supposedly formed a group of of uh ex officers who want to solve
00:29:00
cases uh it seems to be more uh a case of a group of people wanting to be on television and wanting to be part of the
00:29:09
next documentary whatever that may be supposedly the case Breakers have solved the DB Cooper case they've solved the
00:29:17
Zodiac case they've solved other cases as well um what does it mean that 50 investigators have solved the Zodiac
00:29:25
case they've named a person well do all 50 of these investigators uh sign on to the fact that they believe that this is
00:29:35
the Zodiac because at the same time they're saying that they've solved the case they're also demanding that current
00:29:42
law enforcement look into the DNA possibility that there's a match between post and the Zodiac well if you know who
00:29:49
the zodiac is and you can prove it why are you looking for a DNA match so so there are a lot of questions in my mind
00:29:56
I have never seen any evidence that convinces me that post is the Zodiac um a photograph of him in that
00:30:05
era I think it's the 1970s or the 1980s shows evidence that post had a scar on his
00:30:12
forehead well the claim of this group is that that matches the the markings on the head of the
00:30:22
zodiac because the picture that was created in the aftermath of the Paul Stein murder shows folds or lines on the
00:30:32
Zodiac's forehead that seem similar to the scar that Gary post has in the photograph the problem is the original
00:30:39
photograph that was the original picture that was created by investigators did not have forehead lines on it and uh a a
00:30:49
revised picture was made when um somebody presumably a police officer said no we don't we don't give the age
00:30:56
between 25 and 35 we give the age between 35 and 45 so the artist felt compelled to add some age to the Zodiac
00:31:07
picture and Drew a couple of lines on his forehead folds of of what wrinkles may look like in his
00:31:16
forehead but as far as anybody could tell these were not um composed were not added because of a report that somebody
00:31:25
said that he had a a scar or lines in his forehead that looked a certain way so that seems to be the major point of
00:31:35
tie between post and the Zodiac um I I'm very skeptical if if they have more information I'd love to see
00:31:43
it um but from what I've seen it it appears to be someone looking for getting involved in a documentary and
00:31:52
and evidently the the group has already done one documentary on DB Cooper yeah well and and you can't use lines on
00:32:02
on a picture of someone from the Circa 67 68 69 lines on someone's forehead and compare them to a composite
00:32:15
sketch with lines on the suspect's forehead that's not a fingerprint by any standard and it's it's so far from a
00:32:25
fingerprint is Mike Mao still live do you know I don't he was interviewed in 2007 in conjunction with the 2007
00:32:34
release of finer movie I have not heard of news of him since because he's remained very under the surface and I
00:32:43
think for obvious reasons but you know in ' 92 as The Story Goes Mike mou picked
00:32:50
Arthur Lee Allen out of a police lineup saying that's him he's the man that shot
00:32:55
me I mean these case crackers case Breakers what whatever they're called U you know let's maybe maybe show uh Mike
00:33:03
maou or somebody that we can get better confirmations rather than some lines on on a photograph compared to lines of a
00:33:13
drawing of an unknown individual one theory that became rather popular when Joseph D'Angelo was identified as the
00:33:23
Golden State killer one someone who moved around changed the way uh change the type of crimes that he was
00:33:31
committing we do know that there was some level of communication from him as well mainly to victims but uh what are
00:33:40
your thoughts on Joseph D'Angelo being a good or bad zodiac suspect yeah he was arrested in uh early
00:33:49
2018 and people who know the Zodiac case immediately said no this isn't the guy uh D'Angelo was involved in three
00:33:58
separate criminal campaigns as a as a serial killer he uh started out as a burglar somebody who went into people's
00:34:08
homes and took things it wasn't uh it wasn't a matter of trying to enrich himself because he left cash that was
00:34:18
out in the open and took things that had very little value he started out as a burglar became a rapist and then became
00:34:25
a murderer somebody who killed in conjunction with his rapes the Zodiac was never known to burgle he did he was
00:34:35
not a rapist that had that functioned in no manner whatsoever in any of his attacks and he didn't kill in order to
00:34:43
cover up his crimes or to silence Witnesses or to kill people that he had first raped so therefore there's there's
00:34:50
very little comparison between the two the the motives seem entirely different D'Angelo did not seek attention did not
00:35:00
attempt to terrorize a neighborhood he did inadvertently but he attempted to stay under the radar as much as possible
00:35:09
the only phone calls he made or the correspondence that he had with uh with citizens was following up with victims
00:35:18
and ret terrorizing them by contacting them he was not known to contact the police he was not known to look for
00:35:25
headlines um he was not known to taunt a community and one thing we should probably point out here too in regard to
00:35:34
Arthur Lee Allen I mentioned the the word fingerprint here Arthur Lee Allen from my understanding was at one point
00:35:43
dismissed by police after fingerprint and handwriting comparisons they said at the time in 71 did not
00:35:51
match yeah and even the um Mike Mao's U interview with the police Poli where he met with George Bower and looked at a
00:36:01
lineup of uh suspects he did indicate Arthur Le Allen he said that's the man who shot me I'll never forget that as
00:36:11
long as I live which sounds really great it sounds like a match it sounds like hey we have him but then Mike mou turned
00:36:18
and looked at another picture and said yeah he had a face a little bit like this guy so um in the end Mao was only
00:36:27
able to give an 80% certainty that Arthur Lee Allen was responsible the fact that he indicated other pictures
00:36:36
had similarities to the person who attacked him uh made his identification essentially worthless uh a somebody in a
00:36:46
defense attorney in court would absolutely tear to shreds Mike mou trying to um say that Arthur Le Allen
00:36:54
was responsible in the same way a defense attorney would abs tear apart the case Breakers saying that look this
00:37:00
line This scar on post looks very similar to a picture on a artist created rendering of the zodiac um that's just
00:37:09
not usable evidence and the other thing too that makes it difficult right is the
00:37:15
the timing of the attack on Mike Mao it it would have been very dark at that time it's very likely that the killer
00:37:24
the shooter used a flashlight has he just been looking for that face in the dark for decades and finally he's being
00:37:31
presented with faces No that that's not the case at all at the time following the attack Mike mjo said I don't want to
00:37:39
look at pictures I don't want to make a composite because I only saw the killer in profile and as you said it was at
00:37:48
night so the lighting was bad there was a flashlight waving around likely uh striking him in the eyes as well so he
00:37:57
said he was not able to identify the victim identify the perpetrator he did look at a number of books and books of
00:38:07
of uh photographs uh of potential perpetrators he never was able to say he looked more like this guy then this guy
00:38:15
he just looked at them and said you know I don't recognize any of these people the identification in 1992 in no way
00:38:23
represents uh what Mike mou was saying you know immedi Med after the attack let's get to your suspect then because
00:38:31
one day you decide to write a letter to your suspect can you tell us about writing that letter why you CH you chose
00:38:38
to put pen to paper and who you address that letter to okay first of all I don't
00:38:44
like the the term suspect um it it has a legal connotation when the police department identifies somebody as a
00:38:52
potential perpetrator and calls them a suspect immediately that individual is granted Extra Protection under the law
00:39:02
and so even police departments don't like to use that word you'll notice uh police departments will say somebody is
00:39:08
a person of interest or somebody exists under an umbrella of Suspicion similar wording that that allows them to
00:39:16
continue an investigation without being worried about all of the Extra Protection that an individual has when
00:39:24
when um amateur detectives say they have a suspect really doesn't mean anything it means that they know a little bit
00:39:31
about the case and they've picked a person that they think is responsible but um probably the word suspect is is not a
00:39:40
good one to use what I say in my research is that I present my research conclusions what I have concluded based
00:39:48
on the evidence that I've gathered and the way I look at uh at the evidence and I attempt to make conclusion is based on
00:39:58
on facts not based on what I think a lot of times people when they say they they're suspect is so and so they're
00:40:05
referring to their their opinion and I've even seen people on the internet say well my top three suspects or my top
00:40:12
five suspects that really concerns me because that says that at least two or more people are entirely
00:40:22
Innocent but they're um being dragged through a a a mud of suspicion as I came to know the case um
00:40:33
Let me let me back up when I first looked into it I assumed that Arthur Lee Allen was responsible I did that because
00:40:39
of my knowledge of the case from Grace Smith's books um I figured that as I leaned into
00:40:46
the case and got to know the details I would either convince myself that yes indeed Arthur Le Allen was responsible
00:40:54
or else I would um come to know on a psychological level some perpetrator that I might never name somebody who may
00:41:02
have been lost to history um as I came into knowledge of the case and grew in my understanding
00:41:11
both of those original suppositions were were eliminated I came to believe that Arthur Le Allen had nothing to do with
00:41:18
it other than he liked attention the same way that zodiac did and it my research conclusions led me to somebody
00:41:26
who is not like to history um through great detail and looking at the case I came to the conclusion that the zodiac
00:41:35
is Theodore kazinski also known as the unibomber it's not a wildly popular theory on the
00:41:44
case but as I put together the evidence and as I collected it it occurred to me that the only way to understand the
00:41:53
Zodiac case is to understand its continuation as that of the unibomber and the only way to understand the
00:42:00
crimes of the unibomber is to understand its precedent the crimes of the zodiac serial killer the Zodiac who disappeared
00:42:09
in 1970 as far as anybody knew reemerged in 1978 under the guise of the unibomber a
00:42:17
separate and different campaign designed to look very different than that of the
00:42:23
zodiac and yet the similarities between the two are incredible and there appears to be a great
00:42:31
progression in crimes and in the need for publicity from the Zodiac that is continued on through the crimes of the
00:42:39
unibomber one of the things that you point out that I thought was very fascinating was when you look at
00:42:45
comparing serial killers there's not a ton of similarities between what what Bundy did
00:42:54
and what BTK did but when you compare the unibomber to the Zodiac you have a lot of similarities and and also a thing
00:43:05
that you you brought to my attention that I've never even heard before was not only were there letters to not only
00:43:13
did the Zodiac give letters but he also Drew bomb bomb diagrams and sent those out with the letters yeah on the surf
00:43:23
surface of it the Zodiac seems very different than the unibomber and it's led a number of professionals to lay
00:43:32
their professional um reputation on the line and say there is no way that the Zodiac could be Theodore kazinski
00:43:40
because the unibomber is so different than the Zodiac and they've gone on to say you know the Zodiac did this and the
00:43:49
unibomber did that and it looks entirely different the problem is what we know about the zodiac is what the Z zc wants
00:43:57
us to know about the Zodiac we see his attacks and we can gather information on them but the bulk of what we know about
00:44:04
the Zodiac we have gathered through the letters that he has sent well who says the Zodiac has to tell the truth through
00:44:13
his letters and with respect to the unibomber we got to know the unibomber through the the unibomber manifesto that
00:44:24
was sent out a year prior to Ted kazinsky arrest and a lot of people have read the
00:44:31
manifesto and said oh okay I get the unibomber I get the manifesto I know what he did and why he
00:44:38
did it well what's to say that Ted kazinski had to tell the truth in the manifesto and in fact uh there seems to
00:44:46
be an awful lot of deception within the manifesto and in fact his very reason for killing as the unibomber doesn't
00:44:53
really hold up to light when you begin to look at it in any great depth so that the truth about the Zodiac and the truth
00:45:04
about the uniom is an awful lot closer than people have been led to believe and people have concluded I don't believe
00:45:11
the media did a very good job of reading the manifesto and presenting the unibomber to the the general public um
00:45:20
there's a lot of misunderstanding and it led um writer Alon Chase to say every you know about
00:45:27
the unibomber is wrong which is quite a blatant statement but I have come to believe it that the more you look into
00:45:35
his life and his actions and what he has claimed about himself um a lot of it doesn't hold a lot of weight no he he
00:45:45
is and that's the thing that made me so damn angry about the manifesto and and look the what is we've studied and we've
00:45:56
studied we' put our best women and men on it we've studied serial killers what makes them tick why do they do what they
00:46:03
do nature virtues nurture there's no no end of what can be studied what could potentially be learned but then each
00:46:12
serial killer is in ways contradiction to the previous one that you studied before and but the one commonality that
00:46:20
they all share they're Liars the Zodiac the Zodiac was a liar Ted kazinski was a
00:46:28
liar whether they're one and the same it doesn't matter they were liars and the the thing the thing here is you read
00:46:37
that Manifesto and I'm so glad that you said that because that's the one of the things that angers me the most about the
00:46:43
unibomber case is oh yeah I get it I he was a man on a mission he was a mission oriented killer [ __ ] he was a holier
00:46:52
than thou you know uh do what I say not as I do type of type of guy at the end of the day and he he stole from his
00:47:02
neighbors he he fantasized about killing about shooting uh teenagers or children he he
00:47:11
he was he was he wasn't just scum for mailing bombs to people that maimed and and
00:47:19
killed he was he was scum because he was scum when he woke up in the morning and
00:47:23
he was scum when he went to bed every night that's that's who he was and he had a deep seated hatred for so many
00:47:33
people that he had to go live out in the damn Woods to be by himself and so this
00:47:40
look like the cap to the captain's Point earlier you you spend it um enough time
00:47:46
by yourself you can come up with some brilliant things to say well that's what the manifesto was he spent enough time
00:47:53
by himself that he could or orchestrate this and piece this whole thing together
00:47:57
for the rest of us to read and and and try and for a second to believe to have somewhat of an understanding of this
00:48:05
very flawed very complicated man who likely didn't understand his own intelligence and clearly had a lot of
00:48:15
problems with the emotion and with connecting on a real human level with anyone else Nick I have never heard a
00:48:24
more accurate description of Ted kazinski and believe me I've I've heard a lot um I'm working right now on a
00:48:34
rather comprehensive biography of Ted kazinski and you hit the nail on the head as far
00:48:42
as my research into the man he poached he was not an environmentalist he as as he seemed to
00:48:50
Proclaim within the the words of the manifesto John Douglas has written that um when Ted kazinski took a six-year
00:48:59
break from his bombing it was his prediction he claimed that Ted kazinski would work on number
00:49:08
one improving bombs but also number two developing a justification for what it was that he was doing so in many ways
00:49:17
the manifesto is a justification for his activities his murders and he has claimed that the reason that he killed
00:49:27
people was to give his ideas a fair hearing well the truth is a lot of people have ideas and a lot of people
00:49:34
want their ideas to be heard but the idea that he went out and killed people because he needed to get his message out
00:49:41
it was such an important message and he was such a benevolent person that he wanted to help humankind none of that
00:49:48
made any sense the truth is when you look very close into Ted kazinski the reason he killed is because he enjoyed
00:49:57
killing and so the words of the zodiac apply very closely to Ted kazinski he likes killing because it's so much fun
00:50:06
so if if we're on a speed date right and you had a couple minutes to make your case for Ted kazinski uni bommer being
00:50:21
the zodiac what what would your major points be well and I and I think has to one thing that we've not gotten into yet
00:50:30
here Mark is the the chronologic the Chron sorry the chronology of Ted kazinski where he was
00:50:40
living at the time what he was doing and then comparing that to the Zodiac the Zodiac timeline yeah to really um
00:50:50
connect the two it took me a 400 400 page book to uh lay out all of the evidence so so it's difficult to me to
00:50:58
uh to do speed dating um but I did gather the information into six or seven constellations um groups of evidence
00:51:08
that seem to connect the two it's been common in the Zodiac Community to notice uh a scar on the forehead or the way
00:51:17
somebody writes their ease or some some minor piece of evidence and then built up a a a philosophy of that convicts
00:51:26
this person of being the Zodiac the the evidence that I use to link the two is is gathered into quite a large
00:51:34
collection divided into six clusters or six constellations um with respect to timeline Ted kazinski was a professor at
00:51:44
UC Berkeley he was on Christmas uh vacation your Christmas break during the murder at Lake Herman Road one month
00:51:55
after that he abrupt sent a resignation letter to his school which really shocked his uh superiors his last day of
00:52:04
being a professor UC Berkeley was June the 30th 1969 four days later the Blue Rock
00:52:10
Springs Park murder took place after kazinski left UC Berkeley there's a two-year Gap in his life where very
00:52:18
little is known with specificity as to where he was what he was doing that two-year gap of time ended in July of
00:52:27
1971 and that's the time that Ted kazinski purchased property in Montana and began to build his cabin the bulk of
00:52:35
the zodiac activity happened during that two-year break the two-year Gap in Ted gazinsky life the murders the bulk of
00:52:45
the letters um what the Zodiac did happened during that two years following Ted kazinsky move to Montana only a
00:52:55
single verif IED zodiac letter was ever sent and that was sent in 1974 three years after the The Zodiacs
00:53:04
three years after kazinski had moved to Montana so it's entirely possible that Ted kazinski traveled to the Bay Area in
00:53:13
1974 and at that time sent one final zodiac letter but the six clusters that uh of information that I gathered
00:53:22
include bombs um some people say well you know this zodiac killed with knife and guns and the unibomber killed with
00:53:30
bombs and so they're very different and there's no way the two could be one but the truth is the Zodiac himself uh made
00:53:39
that change made that alteration in his own life following the murder of cab driver Paul Stein he sent two different
00:53:47
bomb diagrams to the Press saying I'm going to start killing people with the use of bombs um Ted Kaz inski in Montana
00:53:57
rope bomb diagrams some of that he sketched out in three dimensions exactly as the Zodiac did the Zodiac improved
00:54:05
from his first bomb making it into a second Revis bomb diagram and Improvement Ted kazinski improved upon
00:54:13
his bombs when he was in Montana the unibomber bombs were very distinctive and very easy to recognize for
00:54:21
investigators because they took great um great pains to put in a second failsafe uh
00:54:32
circuit kazinski was worried that his bombs would not work and so he often put a second circuit in the Zodiac bomb
00:54:40
diagrams contain two circuits or a circuit used also for a second use um so there so they're great similarities
00:54:49
there the Zodiac was uh had a had a strong connection to mathematics if you think of what codes are and the Zodiac
00:54:58
sent four codes in his letters codes are at base a mathematical operation codes are symbols that need to be solved well
00:55:08
Ted kazinski was a PhD mathematician who is a prodigy and a a a a worldclass mathematician as he was a professor at
00:55:18
UC Berkeley um if you go back and look at the Zodiac letters there's an awful lot
00:55:24
of mathematics within them the use of the word radians um many many symbols not only in
00:55:32
the not only in the codes but in the actual writing and a number of um Illusions or ideas that the writer of
00:55:41
the zodiac letters was a teacher a professor and a mathematician are all there so that uh I see many connections
00:55:51
between the two but also a great deal of effort putting into trying to make individuals look different um when Ted
00:56:01
kazinski was a professor and Following being a professor people knew his handwriting people had a familiarity
00:56:08
with him even if it was not very close and so he put a great deal of effort into disguising his handwriting and
00:56:15
disguising the tone with which he wrote his letters and he was a young man at the
00:56:21
time he was 27 at the time of the zodiac attacks as the UN bber when he was arrested a lot of people think of the
00:56:29
unibomber from Ted kazinsky arrest he was led out of his cabin and taken away in handcuffs at the age of 53 almost at
00:56:38
the age of 54 he was at a very different time in his life therefore it was very easy for Ted kazinski to present himself
00:56:47
differently to present himself more as he was in actuality but not entirely the unibomber did enough to mask himself so
00:56:56
that people didn't know that he was a a PhD Professor um and and and incidentally we discussed earlier about
00:57:05
the intellectual level of the zodiac and how that's a hotly debated issue Ted kazinski as the unibomber did a
00:57:11
fantastic job of presenting himself as possibly a bluecolor worker somebody who didn't have a lot of
00:57:19
Education in other words uh Ted kazinski was presenting himself in his letters and in his Communications and in his
00:57:28
Manifesto as somebody who was not as intelligent as he actually was but somebody who was trying to
00:57:36
convince the investigation that he was more intelligent than he was so investigators kind of snickered and said
00:57:43
yeah here's this dumb bluecollar worker trying to present himself as more more intelligent than he is but we know that
00:57:50
he's only a blue color worker whereas it seems that the Zodiac did very much the
00:57:56
same thing presented himself as somebody who wasn't very intellectual somebody who couldn't spell very well somebody
00:58:03
who didn't have good penmanship but at the same time tried to throw in words like radians and photo electric to get
00:58:12
investigators to think that he was a dumb person masking himself as somebody who was more intelligent than he
00:58:18
actually was when you talk about his handwriting I I noticed some of Ted kazinsky letters if you look at that
00:58:26
actual letter compared to how he addresses the letter almost looks like two two separate people um how do you
00:58:34
mean how he addresses his letter do you mean the handwriting yeah so like the handwriting when he is putting the
00:58:42
address and everything is like in all caps and and has one style you know any graphic artist or whatever would go well
00:58:51
this is one font and then when he writes the letter it's almost in a completely different font yeah Ted kazinski
00:58:59
addressed envelopes in a block letter and uh his brother David kazinski claimed that uh his whole life at least
00:59:09
since the time that the two of them were corresponding his brother Ted always addressed his envelopes in Block
00:59:15
lettering zodiac did the same the Zodiac printed almost everything that he ever wrote which for the 1960s was a little
00:59:26
6s and 70s was a little bit odd because most people knew cursive and use cursive
00:59:31
it's not in Vogue today it's not being taught any longer but people generally wrote in cursive the Zodiac never did
00:59:40
and neither did Ted kazinski I corresponded with him for about two years and all of his letters to me the
00:59:47
envelopes were in Block lettering and the letters themselves sometimes page page after page were done in a very
00:59:55
careful printing the only cursive that I ever received from kazinski was his uh signature at the end of a line where he
01:00:02
wrote Ted kazinski in a very small script you mentioned John Douglas uh legendary retired FBI agent in criminal
01:00:13
profiler John Douglas earlier we've had the privilege of interviewing him several times here in on in the garage
01:00:21
but you you mentioned what he said about Ted kazinski now let's go back and compare that to what he said about the
01:00:30
unidentified the unknown killer who he profiled the Zodiac Killer when he profiled the Zodiac Killer yeah he um
01:00:38
profiled he actually had the Zodiac Case Files on his desk for only a single day
01:00:43
back in the 1970s his hups assigned him to work on the Zodiac case for no apparent reason gave him the
01:00:52
files and he started to work on them the very next day the same files were removed from him and they said no we
01:00:58
don't want you to work on this any longer you need to work on something else he wasn't sure why he uh he was
01:01:05
given the case or why the case was taken away it was never explained to him but he said something very interesting he
01:01:10
said that that the Zodiac was more intelligent than he let on in his letters and that the Zodiac had the
01:01:19
meticulousness of a bomb maker I thought that was really interesting even despite
01:01:25
the messy script that the Zodiac wrote John Douglas realized there was a certain amount of skill and intricacy to
01:01:35
what it was that the Zodiac was doing I don't believe he ever made the case that
01:01:41
uh kazinski was the Zodiac in fact he has written on both the unibomber and on the I andon kazinski said many of the
01:01:52
same things about the two of them but has never um made the leap of saying that they were the same person yeah as
01:01:59
far as suspects go or sorry Persons of Interest go he was more willing to work the angle of words that were said by the
01:02:09
Zodiac Killer when interacting with the victims at Lake berasa and maybe clues that he dropped or of course he could be
01:02:16
lying but even if he were to have been lying he had to have some knowledge of what it was that he was saying at the
01:02:24
the time there yeah I believe Douglas came down on the fact that uh the perpetrator was Arthur
01:02:32
Le Allen or somebody similar to him somebody somebody who was ineffective and socially incompetent one of the
01:02:40
bigger arguments against Ted kazinski being the zodiac is that well after he was apprehended of course they took
01:02:48
apart his the Little Shack that he was living in piece by piece with all the books that were in there with him and
01:02:54
went through everything I I mean you want to talk about really throwing a guy in all of his belongings underneath a
01:03:01
microscope that's exactly what they did and got several different sets of eyes to review and use that microscope to to
01:03:10
look at everything with this guy and so the argument would be well they never found anything once they apprehended him
01:03:17
to link him or to say that he was or suggestive that he was the Zodiac Killer but then you can take that same argument
01:03:26
and apply it to Arthur Lee Allen as well I mean he he's I I might be a little incorrect on
01:03:35
some of the details here but Arthur Lee Allen at the the age of 52 I think it was suffers a heart attack calls for
01:03:44
help in the paramedics arrive at his house and so a lot of Arthur Lee Allen's belongings and things were gone through
01:03:52
because it it wasn't like he was didn't become a suspect or a person of interest
01:03:58
until after he had passed and then later they had to go back and go well we missed out on this one no he was he was
01:04:04
alive and well for a large part of when people were considering him as a possibility for being the Zodiac yeah I
01:04:12
ironically what you say is absolutely true they looked at his his belongings Ted kazin's belongings and found nothing
01:04:19
to specifically forensically tie him to being the Zodiac but ironically the search of his cabin is another of the
01:04:28
clusters of evidence of showing a familiarity between kazinski and the Zodiac when they took apart kazinsky
01:04:36
cabin they found many books they found disguises that consisted of glass sunglasses and a hood because you know
01:04:45
the Z the the unob bomber used a a hood and sunglasses as part of his disguise they also found codes they also found
01:04:55
bum creation material these are precisely the things that we would expect to find
01:05:01
in the home of the zodiac were he to be arrested and his belongings gone through
01:05:09
if you think of um the home of Ted of of Ted Bundy or the home of Gary Ridgeway the uh Green River Killer or the home of
01:05:20
John Wayne gasy any of these individuals would not be expected to have disguise es because as far as we know none of
01:05:29
them wore disguises there would not be any codes and in fact no codes were found in these
01:05:36
individuals we would not expect to find a lot of books um and yet these are precisely the things that we would
01:05:42
expect to see from the Zodiac and these are the classifications the the the types of things that were taken from the
01:05:50
uni bomber's cabin once he was arrested and am I correct by thinking though two Ted kazinski moves across the country to
01:05:58
go to school moves back across the country and then moves far again so I would I would expect that he wouldn't
01:06:06
have many personal belongings from his past if any yeah and and in connection with that kazinski was very meticulous
01:06:15
about all of his belongings he attempted to distance himself from a lot of his Crimes by um purging his his uh
01:06:26
belongings of things he he categorized everything in his life and with respect to incriminating evidence he would list
01:06:34
something by how incriminating it was what needed to be done with it um did it need to be burned could it be buried um
01:06:42
is it mildly embarrassing to him or is it completely incriminating in um felonious behavior
01:06:50
and and because he wrote a lot about this a lot of things in his possession just a lot of things disappeared from
01:06:57
his possession before he was arrested he wrote about uh how he would destroy things and how he would hide things and
01:07:04
what he would do to prevent himself from being caught so while when he was arrested there was an awful lot of
01:07:10
evidence of him being the unibomber there was not evidence of other crimes he had committed in his life and that
01:07:18
gives us the idea that he may have entirely purged his life of the zodiac crimes if he was responsible
01:07:26
one of one of uh his greatest fears and he wrote about this regularly and his uh
01:07:31
his brother confirmed this he did not want to be considered mentally ill even though he was diagnosed as having
01:07:40
schizophrenia with paranoia at least on a provisional basis through the courts after he was
01:07:46
arrested as many schizophrenics he attempted to present himself to the public as somebody who was entirely sane
01:07:55
he was afraid of his life's work the manifesto not being believed or being ridiculed because maybe he was insane
01:08:02
maybe he was crazy mentally maybe he suffered from a mental illness um his whole life this is something he fought
01:08:09
against his father compared him to a coworker who suffered from schizophrenia and ended up being in uh
01:08:17
institutionalized as a result of it Ted kazinski appears to have fought against the whole notion that he was insane um
01:08:25
following the death of the the murder of Paul Stein when he became a letter writer because he was not killing any
01:08:32
longer the Zodiac's letters became more and more desperate and more and more ridiculous and bizarre and people
01:08:40
stopped taking them very seriously because well he wasn't killing anymore and what he was writing about just was
01:08:48
starting to be silly so it appears that the Zodiac wrapped up that campaign and completely rid himself of it um for fear
01:08:57
that he would be considered mentally ill one thing that when we started this when
01:09:01
the captain and I started True Crime garage we were eager to we were already into True Crime and eager to be a part
01:09:10
of the True Crime Community but one thing that that that I've never liked you know I like to have the open
01:09:15
discussion these cases are unsolved for a reason we don't know until we know and
01:09:19
so I've never found it to be I found it to be very off-putting when someone says
01:09:25
oh don't present me with your person of interest because you know I got my own Theory and yet some of those people if
01:09:35
you don't like their guy then you're wrong and they don't want to have a conversation but the thing that annoys
01:09:42
me so much with so and it's very few people but but some of those same people will then later look at investigations
01:09:49
and go well the cops locked in on a on a suspect too quickly and then they built
01:09:53
their case around around that guy well essentially if if you've locked in on a guy and you're not willing to have
01:09:59
conversations about another guy then you're doing the exact same thing and I know you're not of that type you're
01:10:05
willing to have other conversations and and look you're presenting a theory and I I enjoy the theory I think that Ted
01:10:16
looks as good for this as anyone else uh he's he's a better he's a better person
01:10:21
of interest than a lot of other ones he separates himself from a lot of individuals simply because we know he's
01:10:28
capable of murder we know that he had murder on his mind and he successfully did it whether he was the Zodiac or not
01:10:36
so that sets him apart from a large portion of the population and this this whole idea clearly it look it was it was
01:10:46
not lost on us we didn't we didn't broadcast this or shout it from the mountain tops when we covered zodiac in
01:10:55
2021 but one thing we did with it was purposefully done was that we covered zodiac in five episodes the Tylenol
01:11:05
murders and two the unibomber and two and all of those episodes ran between the episode numbers of 470 and 483 so
01:11:14
there there was reason for putting those Nine episodes with in a 14 episode batch
01:11:22
so I I love the theory before we wrap up here Mark please tell everybody where they can get your books or where they
01:11:29
can find you my books are available as they say wherever books can be found um with respect to the Zodiac I've written
01:11:37
the Zodiac serial killer Trilogy which consists of hunted profiled and exposed and three weeks ago I released my
01:11:46
Memoirs entitled obsessed my Relentless pursuit of the Zodiac Killer some of the
01:11:51
interesting material that you'll find in my most recent book is how I came to acquire and own the unib bombers cabin
01:12:00
Library also how I corresponded with Ted kazinski across two years kazinski of course passed away in June of last year
01:12:10
he took his own life Behind Bars um partially because he had been diagnosed with cancer and was in the late stages
01:12:17
of uh his life I can be contacted through my website dru.com doct hewitt.com and I enjoy interacting with
01:12:30
other people answering questions or um just discussing the Zodiac case and uh I I really appreciate the opportunity to
01:12:39
be here and to talk with the two of you well and now we want to thank you for joining us as well and now the three of
01:12:45
us will leave the garage together we're going to walk to the nearest bar and consume as many Aqua Velva cocktails as
01:12:51
we can together so thanks Mark for joining us I know that this uh it will be something really to enjoy by the the
01:12:59
listeners and it's a lot of a lot of uh thought will be brought forward and and be had because of our conversation here
01:13:07
today so thank [Music] you want to thank you so much for joining us here in the garage thanks for
01:13:24
telling your mother thanks for telling your brother thanks for sharing the cases on social media it means the world
01:13:30
Colonel do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful beautiful listeners yes please Captain we have
01:13:37
plenty of recommended reading for you this week that's because the great Mark HT who you heard with us here in the
01:13:44
garage this week he's got four count them one two three four books all centered around the Zodiac and his
01:13:52
investigation and Research into this still unsolved case so look for Mark htt's books all on the Zodiac you can go
01:14:01
to our website and check out our recommended page we'll have them listed there for you and while you're there
01:14:08
make sure you sign up on the mailing list and until next week be good be kind and don't litter
01:14:24
[Music] looking for Toys that'll get the biggest reac actions yes please Walmart has
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jaw-dropping toys like for real Daisy yoga goat awesome Razor Crazy Cart Shuffle wo Hot Wheels Bluey 3in1
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airplane playet and more aren't you going to say cool I'm saving it for the holidays
01:15:16
[Music] smart welcome to your Walmart