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GameChanger [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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our weekly show called off the Record and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a
00:03:59
chair grab a few beers let's talk some true [Music] [Music] crime [Music] basically we have identified the bodies
00:04:51
of of the two uh females that were found out yesterday or yes yesterday uh the bodies are of uh have been positive
00:05:00
identified as Abigail J Williams 13 of the deli area and Liberty Rose ly German 14 of
00:05:07
the deli area the two girls were reported missing on Monday February 13th the bodies were
00:05:14
discovered about 12:15 on the 14th in the woods just east of town here by volunteers that helped in the search of
00:05:20
the children after they were reported missing to the Carol County Sheriff's Department family has been
00:05:26
notified this is considered a double homicide in investigation no further information
00:05:32
will be released at this time we have we have nobody in in custody at this time uh so as far as I'm concerned yes there
00:05:38
is somebody out there that did this horrendous crime and uh we're going to track him down it is disturbing it is
00:05:45
concerning as sheriff in my position and uh you know I want to I guess assure the
00:05:52
community is as Trooper Riley indicated we're going to get to the bottom of this
00:05:57
we feel confident and uh you know we're going we're going to do everything we can within our uh resources to reach
00:06:06
Justice in this [Music] situation this is Deli Indiana and our case starts on the afternoon of February
00:06:24
13th 2017 at about 1:40 in the afternoon 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German were dropped
00:06:34
off by Libby's older sister Kelsey the drop off location is at a trail head on County Road 300 North this is near the
00:06:43
scenic monan High Bridge which is an abandoned railroad bridge that goes over Deer Creek in Carroll County
00:06:50
Indiana okay I'm going to try to get as detailed on this portion of our timeline
00:06:56
as I can so before the girls left left to go to the bridge in the trails Libby asked her older sister Kelsey several
00:07:04
times if she could drive them out there to which Kelsey said no several times before basically giving in and saying
00:07:12
yes now Liberty had already secured permission from her grandmother Becky to go to the
00:07:20
bridge the idea was Becky said yes you and Abby can go to the bridge if you can get a ride there and if you can get a
00:07:28
ride back So the plan was for Kelsey to drop the two girls off and then around 3:30 p.m. Libby's father Derek would
00:07:38
pick both of them up this 330 marker is just a general time as Derek said he would call Libby when he was close to
00:07:47
the pickup location so Kelsey drops off the girls and then calls her boyfriend to tell him that she is in route to go
00:07:56
hang out with him Kelsey was going to go hang out with him and and then go off to
00:08:00
work while walking on the trail Libby posts a photo to Snapchat this is the now famous 207 p.m. Snapchat photo
00:08:11
showing Abby crossing the moanin high bridge at 3:11 p.m. Derek calls Libby's phone Libby does not answer at 3:13
00:08:23
Derek makes another call Derek says both of these calls go to voicemail but after
00:08:29
ringing so Libby's phone rings and then the calls go to voicemail eventually and I've seen it
00:08:36
reported this might have been as early as 3:30 p.m. calls to Libby's phone start going directly to
00:08:45
voicemail when this second call goes to voicemail Derek Parks the car so now he is parked in a location where he can
00:08:53
pick up the girls this is the same general location where the two girls were originally dropped off off Derek
00:09:00
claims that once he Parks the car he gets out of his car immediately yeah he parked at the trail head and he walks
00:09:06
the trail within minutes of parking the vehicle and starting off on the trail on
00:09:11
foot he comes to an intersecting path he says it's here where he sees as he has described an older man with a plaid or
00:09:20
flannel shirt on he asks this man if he has seen two girls to which the man responds no but I saw a couple on the
00:09:29
Bridge these Trails out there are numbered the intersecting trails are the 501 Trail and the 505 Trail yeah Derek
00:09:38
is going to walk down the 505 Trail to look for the girls now forgive me everyone as I've only seen this on maps
00:09:49
but it appears to me that the 501 Trail is the more heavily traveled Trail it appears to be like the main trail there
00:09:58
Derek takes the other Trail the 505 which dead ends at Deer Creek he does not find the girls and he does not see
00:10:06
anyone else so he turns around and he heads back the way he came walking all the way back to his vehicle once he is
00:10:15
near his vehicle he calls Becky Patty Becky is Libby's grandmother Derek is telling her hey I'm here Libby is not
00:10:25
picking up the phone the girls are not here this this phone call takes place at 3:30
00:10:31
p.m. after the call Derek is going to walk the 501 path so he gets there he's calling nobody's answering he walks down
00:10:41
a path the less lesser traveled path gets back to the car still nothing now he's going to go walk the main path but
00:10:50
at this point there has to be some level of concern oh yeah yeah so much so that
00:10:55
he's already called Becky the grandmother right so let's give a general description of this path which I
00:11:02
think is very important for those that have not seen this on a map all right from where he is parked the general
00:11:09
description is this starting from where he parked he walks a short distance on a
00:11:13
short Trail once there he is standing at the 501 Trail which is a Long Trail it's
00:11:20
the more traveled Trail it's also called the moan and High Bridge Trail because if you are standing right there at the
00:11:27
intersecting trails Trail 501 or the monin High Bridge Trail to the Northwest goes all the way to the freedom Bridge
00:11:36
which is a beautiful pedestrian bridge that extends over Highway 25 better known as the hoer Heartland highway or
00:11:46
Triple H for wrestling fans to the Northwest is this beautiful Freedom Bridge right to the southeast is the
00:11:53
moan and high bridge so Derek goes up to the freedom bridge to see if the girls are up there he does not see them then
00:12:02
again he turns around by the time he gets back to the intersecting Trails this is when members of Libby's family
00:12:09
start to arrive to help in the search remember we said Kelsey was going to work well she got a call from Becky the
00:12:18
grandmother who is alerting the family that Libby is missing so instead of going to work Kelsey returns to help as
00:12:26
well just real quick just to recap because a lot of things are happening here the girls were dropped off at
00:12:33
approximately 1:40 p.m. I've seen this time as early as 1:35 p.m. and as late as 1:45 p.m. yeah the Snapchat photo is
00:12:43
at 20:7 p.m. so we know they are alive and well at 2:07 then not even an hour and a half
00:12:52
later less than 90 minutes later Derek is there at 3:15 looking for them at at 3:30 Becky is notified and by 400 p.m.
00:13:01
less than 2 hours after the Snapchat photo multiple members of Libby's family are there at the trails and looking for
00:13:09
the girls between 3:30 and 400 p.m. her family continues to try to call her some
00:13:15
leaving voicemails and some texting as well at about 4:20 p.m. Kelsey along with Cody Cody is Libby's Uncle Kelsey
00:13:26
and Cody set out down the trail and they go in the direction of the moan and high
00:13:32
bridge and they actually cross the bridge when they get to the other side of the bridge they went to a couple of
00:13:39
the homes in the area knocking on doors to inquire about Libby and Abby according to Kelsey and Cody they only
00:13:46
speak to one person and of course that person had not seen the girls Mike Patty is Libby's
00:13:54
grandfather just a quick background for those who are less familiar with the case Libby and her older sister Kelsey
00:14:01
were raised by their grandparents Mike and Becky Derek is their father both their father and mother are involved in
00:14:10
their lives but the mother lives all the way or lived at the time about 4 hours away in Kentucky Mike Patty Libby's
00:14:17
grandfather arrives on the scene this is right around 5:00 p.m. now there's a residence very near the trail head
00:14:25
parking area Mike goes to this home he knows these people there at the home while there he calls a friend of his who
00:14:33
is a police officer then Mike goes back to the trails this is around 5:20 p.m. at 5:30 p.m. Libby's family calls and
00:14:43
notifies the police a huge search gets underway but is called off once it gets too dark in a news release Carrol County
00:14:54
Sheriff Toby lasenby says there's no reason to suspect Foul Play or believe the girls are in immediate danger well
00:15:03
and based off of video footage and photos that I've seen of this area this would be difficult I think to search at
00:15:11
night actually I'd actually think parts of it would actually be dangerous to search at night there's steep hills
00:15:17
there and there's also I mean that bridge that moanin high bridge is dangerous in itself right it's an
00:15:23
abandoned railroad bridge anybody that walks across it and many people have uh it was a popular place to go before this
00:15:31
incident but even after people have filmed themselves or taken pictures of themselves on this bridge and you see
00:15:37
everybody looking down as they walk it it's a 70 foot drop uh 70 or 75 foot drop if you fall off that bridge and
00:15:48
anybody that's ever walked on an abandoned railroad bridge knows that sometimes they're missing steps and even
00:15:54
all the steps that are there there's a distance between them where you could could you could twist an ankle you could
00:16:01
easily lose your footing right and on top of that too I've seen pictures of this area both in the summer fall winter
00:16:09
and even in the month of February even with all the leaves off of the trees this is an area that's heavily
00:16:18
wooded in in a lot of parts and tough to see things at any distance at all even when the the leaves are off of the trees
00:16:27
right so they call Off The Surge they're they're trying to be hopeful but I'd be
00:16:30
a little concerned that if they're out there somewhere in the park that this is not the best area for them to be in
00:16:38
especially after dark right and you have the highway that's right by there the the um Indiana Highway number 25 which
00:16:48
we've discussed that on other cases too you don't want to disappear or go missing right around a highway but that
00:16:55
also probably leads to some kind of discussion on several levels these are young
00:17:01
teenage girls it's it's they've only been missing for a few hours uh probably let's say 5 six hours by the time they
00:17:10
call off the search right you're probably having the discussion with her caretakers with with the parents and
00:17:18
caretakers of these two young girls that they might have they might be off partying with somebody or they might be
00:17:25
out you know doing something right they could have been drop us off at the park we're going to meet up with somebody
00:17:31
that they just didn't tell their Guardians about so they're not going to start searching until the next morning
00:17:38
which would be February 14th 2017 yeah the search continues for the girls and there are several of these
00:17:45
teams of Searchers out there they you can find on YouTube and any of the people that were local remember that
00:17:53
they were calling that morning they were out on TV broadcasting and saying anybody that is available today please
00:18:00
come out and help us search this area for these two girls but unfortunately just after around 12:00 noon one of the
00:18:09
teams finds two bodies and this is about a half a mile away from the bridge from
00:18:16
the moan and high bridge so if you're looking at a map of the area and based off of later evidence the girls were
00:18:25
abducted after 20:07 p.m. we know that from the the uh Snapchat photo and they would have been abducted after 2:07 p.m.
00:18:34
at the southeast side of the bridge this is where they were likely ordered by the
00:18:41
abductor to go down the hill they would have went down the hill and then across a long private driveway now this is not
00:18:51
keep in mind this is not the suburbs so when we say driveway it's not what anybody's picturing this driveway looks
00:18:57
like a long long gravel and dirt road and at this approximate location you can't really see any houses
00:19:06
there's not houses or like other roads visible at this location so as soon as they they go across this dirt road
00:19:15
gravel road Private driveway whatever you want to call it they would have then went down yet another Hill and this one
00:19:22
is steeper than the last this would put them right at the edge of Deer Creek the bodies were found on the opposite
00:19:32
side of this Creek about 50 feet from the North Bank of Deer Creek Police have not publicly stated how the girls were
00:19:42
murdered and law enforcement secured a large area of this North Bank of the creek with crime scene tape as well as
00:19:51
some of the areas from that Southeast side of the bridge working your way down to the creek
00:20:00
side we do not know if the girls were ordered to cross the creek at the shallow point there or if they tried to
00:20:09
make a run for it or if in fact they may have been killed and then carried across
00:20:16
the creek to try to conceal the bodies further we we don't know that but we know that they were found across the
00:20:24
creek is there any way to get across the creek some other way like by driving down a path or I say that they crossed
00:20:33
at this shallow point because that would be what would make the most sense be from from where they were
00:20:40
found um right if you were to cross the creek there's there's that one shallow point right there and it's near that
00:20:47
North Bank area where they were were found and I don't believe that police have actually disclose whether or not
00:20:53
their clothing was wet with the creek water well that's that's the difficult thing
00:21:01
here in this case and that's why we're going to go through it in this manner because when we originally covered it
00:21:06
was very early in the case and there was little to known facts about the case there was a lot of
00:21:15
speculation there was even speculation at that time that they were found in the creek and we can piece together words of
00:21:22
of law enforcement and detectives since then to know that that's not true they were found on dry ground about 5050 ft
00:21:30
from the creek side regarding the wet clothing we don't know if their clothing was found at all right to for starters
00:21:41
and factoring in the the distance of time the time that has elapsed from when it's believed that they were abducted
00:21:50
and likely killed to when they were found I can't say I can't say if their clothes would have been still wet at
00:21:57
that that time what I can say but what you're saying just so we're clear you're not saying that they were found
00:22:05
nude I don't know we don't we don't know but that's what I'm saying is the the way you made it sound was like we don't
00:22:11
know if their clothes were even found right you asked about wet clothes and I'm saying we just don't know because we
00:22:18
don't we don't even have anybody to tell us if the cloth clothing was on them was
00:22:22
found was was never there whatever but what I'm going to guess here and say is that and I'm basing this simply off of
00:22:33
just what the police did in fact rope off with with the large area on that North Bank uh Creek Side with crime
00:22:42
scene tape I'm completely guessing here Captain but it it would seem more likely
00:22:47
to me that they were they were probably killed on the side of the creek in which
00:22:51
they were found again I don't know if that means that they were ordered to cross the creek or if they tried to make
00:22:58
a run for it now on the 15th on February 15th autopsies were conducted on the bodies that afternoon Indiana State
00:23:08
Police in the Carroll County Sheriff's Department held a press conference and they did confirm that they found Liberty
00:23:15
and Abigail Libby and Abby the girls were murdered and again they did not state how they were killed Indiana State
00:23:24
Police also released a photo of a man reported ly seen on the trail around the time the girls disappeared the image
00:23:33
shows a white male with his hands in his pockets while walking on the bridge he's
00:23:38
wearing jeans and a navy blue jacket and a hat well the the hat is still an argument but a lot of the news pressers
00:23:48
that came out around this time describe him as wearing a hat it's very pixelated police this is the other
00:23:55
tricky thing here right from the get-go so police do not call the man a suspect but say that they would like to talk
00:24:01
with him we've seen this tactic in other cases sometimes that person is actually
00:24:11
considered a suspect by law enforcement but by releasing it in this manner right
00:24:15
not calling him a suspect and just saying we would like to talk with him there have been cases where that
00:24:20
individual has come forward to try to explain away why they are in the area at that time he goes He you looking for me
00:24:29
yeah now also uh law enforcement does not say where the photo came from or how they
00:24:36
obtained the photo now I remember thinking and and I don't think this was stated anywhere by and I know it wasn't
00:24:44
stated by law enforcement but I'm sure others may have been thinking the same thing that I thought maybe this photo
00:24:51
this it was a still image may have just been captured from some type of trail camera right but we're going to soon
00:24:58
learn that this actually was taken by Libby on her [Applause] [Music] phone this show is sponsored by better
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[Music] 2023 all right we're back cheers cheers to you captain on February 22nd 2017
00:27:30
there is another news conference this is the now famous news conference where police reveal that one of the victims
00:27:39
Libby recorded video and audio of the suspect on her cell phone the audio recording is released to the public it's
00:27:49
a man's voice saying down the hill this audio triggered more than a thousand tips we can Captain you and I like so
00:27:59
many others offered our speculation on not only the photo but the audio when we first covered this case back in May of
00:28:07
2017 in episodes 110 and 111 yeah those are free to listen to on the Stitcher app and a lot of the speculation that
00:28:16
was involved between you and I and like I said others on their TV shows their podcast in newspaper articles everywhere
00:28:25
was how much more does police have what more was recovered from Libby's phone and we also question things like you
00:28:35
know the the voice sounds muffled is that because the the phone was concealed in her pocket and how did they obtain
00:28:43
this information that was on her phone was her phone in fact found I believe now I you know at the
00:28:50
time I thought maybe they pulled this stuff from the the cloud possibly I I've changed my opinion on
00:28:58
that I'm starting to think that they probably found her phone and it was just a I think the killer was in a rush to
00:29:05
get out of there and may have not known that his image and his voice was captured on her phone yeah or was
00:29:15
unaware that she had a phone I mean there's any any number of reasons out there but again I'm just simply guessing
00:29:20
on that but I wanted to mention that I've changed my thoughts and feelings on that I think po very likely that they
00:29:27
found found her phone now by March 1st the reward money for information in the case grew to
00:29:37
$200,000 8 Days Later Mike Patty Libby's grandfather who some on the internet were saying looked like the suspect or
00:29:46
the bridge guy speaks out publicly for the first time at the Carol County Courthouse personally I don't think Mike
00:29:56
looks anything like what I think I'm seeing in the photo of the bridge guy and I say what I think that I'm seeing
00:30:02
because as you've pointed out it's a p pixelated grainy photo right it's taken some distance away the man on the bridge
00:30:11
the bridge guy is some distance away from Libby when she took this video footage and what's released to the
00:30:19
public there's hot debate and has been for almost two year Well for over two years about what we are seeing and what
00:30:28
this individual looks like but again personally I don't think nor have I ever thought that that Mike Patty looks
00:30:35
anything like what we are seeing in that photo and then later the video footage right but you have
00:30:42
two children dead we have no evidence of the grandfather being there around 2:00
00:30:51
let's say and you would think that with this information he might not have known
00:30:59
let's just say hypothetically it was him he wouldn't have known that he was having his picture taken by
00:31:05
her you would think that somebody in the family would come forward and say that looks like
00:31:12
him yeah and there's nobody coming forward and and doing that and and I think they probably agree with me that
00:31:19
it doesn't that they don't think it looks like him one I don't think it looks like him body type I don't think
00:31:23
it looks like his face I don't think it looks like his his facial features his hair his nothing like there's there's
00:31:31
none of it that other than it being a white guy right I don't see any other any other possible connection plus we
00:31:39
know that Mike Patty has an alibi for that time period he he very likely when you really tear through this timeline
00:31:48
and some of the phone calls that were going on right I find it very likely that Mike Patty would have been unaware
00:31:56
that the girls were even there until they were until people were worried right until they said hey they're
00:32:02
missing and and I think that's what's so difficult in this case is it seems like
00:32:06
there's a lot of grabbing at straws I mean the first thing that I'd want to know investigating this case is one we
00:32:14
don't know if this bridge guy is connected or not we're not law enforcement so we don't know the extent
00:32:20
of information that that phone captured do we have minutes of audio footage do we have minutes of video footage we
00:32:30
don't know we're not law enforcement and my but my first thing when looking at this case is who was supposed to drop
00:32:38
her off where were they at what's their Alibi after that then it becomes who was
00:32:45
supposed to pick them up where's his location based off maybe cell phone pings you know does the does the father
00:32:53
get there earlier than he says he did uh you know where where was he at what's his alibi what would his motive be this
00:33:04
is where I would start but you see quickly in this case people jumping to that looks like the
00:33:11
grandpa and and having really no evidence to connect connect that at all well and that's what this case will has
00:33:20
been and will continue to be and this is not a standalone incident we've seen this in other cases where they release a
00:33:28
composite sketch drawing of the person last seen with somebody or a potential suspect right and you get a flood of
00:33:36
people calling in and the tip is not a great tip it's just a tip of I know somebody that looks like that or I was
00:33:44
driving on the on the uh this such and such Road on Main Street and I passed a car and the guy in the car looked
00:33:51
exactly like that dude like that picture like that drawing but what we will learn
00:33:57
is that we will eventually learn just to clear anything up here that the the image captured on Libby's phone it it is
00:34:06
it is announced later that that is the killer of of the two girls so that is the person that we are looking for the
00:34:14
debate is what are we seeing what does he actually look like because it's a grainy again it's a grainy
00:34:22
picture and he he's walking with his face down and he's not walking with his face down to try to conceal himself from
00:34:31
her her camera phone I don't think he even knew that he was being videotaped he's looking down because
00:34:38
he's making sure that he doesn't lose his footing on that bridge right and fall 70t just like everybody else if if
00:34:44
this guy felt that he needed to conceal his face from from these two girls he would have put on a mask or he would
00:34:53
have put something on he would have done that in a different manner other than just simply looking down as he's walking
00:34:59
toward them and I want to go ahead and throw this out there too you can tell that he's hurridly he's
00:35:05
he's in a hurry walking towards them so even more important that he's paying attention to the placement of his feet
00:35:13
as he makes his way across the bridge um what we're going to see here though this whole thing that I'm pointing out
00:35:22
here with Mike Patty with the grandfather he's making this this very personalized statement this
00:35:30
very heartfelt statement at the County Courthouse but I'm pointing this out because on the internet people were
00:35:38
saying that he looked like the suspect or some people thought he looked like the suspect this is really just the
00:35:43
start of the online suspects that we will see in this case and it quickly continued because on March 17th the
00:35:53
Indiana State Police the FBI and Carroll County Sheriff's deput deputies serve a
00:35:57
search warrant this is at the home of Ron Logan Ron Logan owns the 30 acre property where Abby and Libby were found
00:36:07
yeah the popular TV show Inside Edition speaks to this man uh in his interview he says he was buying tropical fish at
00:36:17
the time of the murders Ron Logan is later arrested and sentenced to 2 years for operating a vehicle this is after he
00:36:26
was El legally operating a vehicle this is after being a habitual traffic offender he is accused of driving to the
00:36:34
county dump on the same day that the girls vanish to be 100% clear he has not been charged in regards to the murders
00:36:45
although he's certainly been same kind of scenario a lot of people saw his interview and went that
00:36:52
looks like the guy right and and it's his property so and there's some debate on how Cooperative he has been with
00:37:02
police right I've seen people that have said Ron has been gone out of his way to
00:37:08
do everything he can to make sure that they know what he was up to that he was not involved and then I've heard other
00:37:16
other arguments that have said just that complete counter of that that that he has not been very
00:37:23
forthcoming yeah and a lot of people actually spec ulate that here's this lesser charge that we can charge him
00:37:30
with and therefore maybe he would then say something because I remember at the time once they arrested him it's like
00:37:37
okay well here's this guy that claims he was somewhere where he wasn't um you know then they you know why is he at the
00:37:45
dump the day that these these girls are found yeah none of this is sounding good
00:37:50
this yeah that doesn't sound good what what is he disposing of because yes you you find these bodies but again we don't
00:37:58
know if they were clothed or not clothed and then on top of that what did he use
00:38:03
for these murders and did he go to the dump and and dump those so a lot of people speculated early that this was a
00:38:13
a tactic to get him behind bars get him thinking about what happened get him away from everybody and therefore he
00:38:21
would then come forward and and maybe possibly confess to this the other thing though too is you know we talk about
00:38:28
what does not sound good for for Ron what does look good to me is I don't think that he look like the bridge guy I
00:38:37
think Ron looks considerably older than what I think I'm seeing in that picture and he I don't think he matches the
00:38:45
description not only does he look older he looks a little bit he looks taller to
00:38:49
me than than what we believe we are looking for and then in July of 2017 after everyone was waiting and
00:38:58
waiting for the other shoe to drop for some kind of new information on the case the Indiana State Police released a
00:39:05
sketch of the murder suspect the person depicted in the composite sketch is described as a white male between 5' 6
00:39:13
in tall to 5' 10 in tall weighing 180 to 220 lb with reddish brown hair and eye color
00:39:23
unknown right so this would go against Logan yeah because of the hair color one also
00:39:29
the the drawing looks a lot younger than than Logan looks yeah and this is the this part of the story can get a little
00:39:37
confusing for people not so familiar with the case because there are eventually two sketches released this is
00:39:43
the first one and you I guarantee that people have seen this this is the one with the the flapjack hat on and the the
00:39:51
little kind of thin goatee hair sticking out on the sides around the ears and the
00:39:56
individual wearing a hoodie well on the picture that they released to the public
00:40:01
it's very pixelated so then one would have to start assuming that they had some other
00:40:07
angle uh some other picture that they found on Libby's phone and and that's how they were getting this
00:40:14
drawing well that's that's interesting that's always been another hotly debated item so it's rumored and then later
00:40:24
stated on the Dr Phil show that that that this sketch was the product of more than one eyewitness who saw this man on
00:40:33
the trails so going off of that statement it seems like this sketch is not compiled based off what they think
00:40:40
they were seeing on her phone or on that footage but based off of more than one eyewitness who saw or claims to have
00:40:48
seen this man on the trails the the day that the girls were killed now for some speculation on
00:40:55
this several people have put together and compiled some good info on this case these people seem to believe that
00:41:06
given the timing of the known facts and of the persons on the trails that day and Libby's family there searching for
00:41:14
her just shortly after the abduction for there to be more than one eyewitness of
00:41:20
this man many believe he must have been spotted both before and after the murders some have made a strong case
00:41:29
that the man wearing the plaid or flannel shirt that interacted with Derek on the trail intersection before 3:30
00:41:37
p.m. people have pointed out that he must be or very likely could be one of the persons to have seen the suspect and
00:41:46
given that timeline he likely saw the suspect after the murders when the suspect was trying to leave the area
00:41:54
this is interesting on several levels s if in fact that it if it's true one because it has never been publicly
00:42:01
released where the public where the suspect was spotted M and by who and even though there are several theories
00:42:09
out there we don't know what route or exactly where the suspect left the area from right from law enforcement
00:42:17
statements it's believed at least one witness is a man and at least one witness to the suspect was a female
00:42:26
and I say that because in one of the pressers when giving answers one of the officers says
00:42:33
she in in response to this composite sketch so and I I would argue or just speculate that these eyewitness accounts
00:42:45
are before pre-murder because where they're found and and the area that they're found is is it's off
00:42:55
the trail and to then backtrack and to get back onto the trail to leave um my gut is telling me that that's not
00:43:05
how it happened that's possible but we don't know where this where this monster parked his vehicle right and it may or
00:43:15
if he had a vehicle there at all it may not have been out of design it may been have had to have been out of necessity
00:43:22
to make his way back and backtrack through the trails correct he could have also avoided the main trail for a large
00:43:31
portion of whatever part that he had to walk back to his vehicle you know tromping through the woods as much as he
00:43:38
could until he had to get back onto the trail and and if he if he had to get back on the trail I would say that would
00:43:44
be more likely we cannot say for certain that the man in the plaid or flannel shirt was one of the people that claims
00:43:53
to have seen the suspect that that was provided details to come up with this sketch but I'm guessing based off of
00:44:03
that this individual has talked with with police pretty extensively if regarding his timeline
00:44:10
flannel shirman plaid shirt man's timeline right if he if he tells police I did not arrive until to the park or
00:44:19
Trail area until this time that might be why the speculation is that maybe he did
00:44:26
in fact see this suspect after the murders because we now what's so interesting about this timeline to me
00:44:33
and what we did not know when we first covered this case is the the window in which the the murders very likely
00:44:42
occurred is so much shorter than what we originally thought right we're talking about it's so very likely that this this
00:44:51
all went down between about 215 and and maybe 3:00 right it seems to be generally believed or or theorized
00:45:01
that the killer had already made his way out of that general area by the time or
00:45:06
shortly after Derek Libby's father arrived and looking for her and I think you can base that that
00:45:15
thought off of his interaction with the flannel shirtman right all right sorry I
00:45:23
went down I went down a long road there thank you for for joining me on it there
00:45:28
well I also want to bring up the fact that based on it's speculated cuz they're not
00:45:35
telling us how they died how they were killed right mhm but from some of the rumors out
00:45:46
there that you would think that this guy would have some kind of blood on him there would be some kind of blood
00:45:52
evidence and so that's why like I said whether you're leaving from a different way that you came in because you could
00:45:59
backtrack somewhere or like you said and I agree with you staying off the path as
00:46:05
long as you can because you have this evidence on you that something bad happened mhm and and so so I think that
00:46:14
again they have all this information they're only releasing bits and pieces so we we can only speculate on some of
00:46:21
these things you know what I do want to point out real quick while we're on that
00:46:25
top before before the thought leaves my tiny little brain here um there is one YouTuber who's done well there's several
00:46:34
YouTubers that have done a lot of work on this case some of it good some of it bad just that's my warning if if you
00:46:40
choose to go down that path don't say that Nick don't say that the colonel and the captain sent you go in there swim at
00:46:46
your own risk some of it is good info and some of it is absolutely painful and terrible to watch yeah but at the good
00:46:54
stuff right but at the end of the day day there's two murdered kids and I think that's why the community has the
00:47:01
community of True Crimes have triying to got behind this case and and try to do everything they can to put the word out
00:47:09
there and sometimes people get fixated in their ideas and fixated on you know it has to be this Logan guy or it has to
00:47:16
be the father or it has to be the grandfather uh they just get fixated but at the end of the day I think they don't
00:47:22
mean harm by that I think they're really trying to bring attention to the case well this is one thing that I found
00:47:29
super interesting that this this guy did and I can't remember his first name last
00:47:34
name greo greo has done a lot of YouTube work on this case and one thing that he
00:47:41
did that I found incredibly interesting was he had a a man wear about the same color of jeans cuz that's one thing you
00:47:50
can't dispute that's not up for debate we know we can look at that picture and see what color those jeans are that the
00:47:56
guy was wearing and so he had somebody wear the same color of jeans and remember what we do know is this the
00:48:05
killer the bridge guy would have had to cross that Creek at some point and it it
00:48:12
would either be because he ordered the girls across the creek and killed them there or he transported the bodies there
00:48:17
or he or he chased after them because they tried to make a run for it right so those are two known facts and this is
00:48:25
what I think is brilliant anybody anytime anybody can take some known facts and then do a little
00:48:31
experimentation with them yeah fantastic work so so uh a big kudos to greo there
00:48:37
but what he did was he had a man wear the same color of jeans and then walk across that Creek at that shallow area
00:48:45
and then very shortly afterwards he videotaped the guy's jeans which sounds silly but what he's pointing out is and
00:48:55
it was was very clear on on the from his footage if this man if the bridge guy were walking and later spotted by
00:49:02
somebody it's very likely that nobody would say I saw a man wearing wet jeans walking on the trail the way the color
00:49:10
of those jeans when he filmed them after the guy walked across the the water there right did not appear to look wet
00:49:18
to me which I I found fascinating because that was one thing that I always wondered about once we learned more of
00:49:25
the area of where in fact they were found I kept going well why wouldn't out of these Witnesses and out of these
00:49:32
people that were at the bridge and at the trails those days that day and then all these people from Libby's family
00:49:38
there shortly afterwards looking for her mhm it would have been so easy for police to get a tip that oh I saw a guy
00:49:45
that looked exactly like this and what was so odd about him was he was soaking wet but we don't have that tip right and
00:49:52
again we don't know you would think maybe you you would see more of that if if the perpetrator chased after them and
00:50:00
had to run through the water but again if it's one of those things where it's the the crime happened on one side and
00:50:07
then the murderer transported their bodies over you could roll up your jeans or whatever but basically what what your
00:50:15
state in which I think is very intelligent is the idea of even if they walked through the water you might not
00:50:23
have seen um this might not stuck out to you no because all it looks like is a darker pair of blue jeans it doesn't
00:50:31
look like like they're soaking wet it just looks like a darker color a darker shade of blue and here's the other thing
00:50:39
too regarding Mike Patty and the um the property owner Logan Ron Logan look I understand people have
00:50:49
their suspicions but I want to throw this out there just so we can all try to get on the same page
00:50:56
this is not some fumbling and bumbling investigation this is the state police this is the FBI this is the sheriff's
00:51:04
department this is as many agencies as you can possibly think of working together putting all their resources
00:51:11
into solving this case yeah key word FBI if the if the bridge guy was somebody so
00:51:21
close in Social Circle to one of the victims such as Mike Patty or somebody so close
00:51:28
in proximity as to Ron Logan to where the bodies were found on his property it's been over two years this thing
00:51:36
would have been solved by now now nobody's out there standing on a hill saying I'm going to die on this hill and
00:51:42
argue this to death that these two were not involved nobody's doing that so there's still public speculation and
00:51:49
suspicion out there I'm saying that I believe if somebody was so close either in proximity or
00:51:58
relationship to the girls that committed this crime that was was in fact Bridge Guy the killer this thing would have
00:52:04
been solved by now it it seems so far-fetched that that that that would be the result when this thing does finally
00:52:13
get solved because it will so let's continue on with some some other suspects here Captain well I I just want
00:52:21
to say I agree with you mostly but again we don't know what evidence they have and what evidence they don't have and so
00:52:31
um but what we do know is that they haven't come out publicly and said that Logan is not involved they haven't come
00:52:37
out publicly and and stated that that they cleared everybody in the family or cleared people in closed circles so that
00:52:46
has to remain on the table and I think especially the family members are normally understanding of
00:52:53
that you take any case like where a wife is murdered and they heavily investigate
00:52:59
the husband most of the time if if the husband is innocent he's saying that's fine keep looking at me keep keep
00:53:08
investigating me if you want you're going to get to a dead end at some point so I think that you have to keep those
00:53:16
on the table because again we don't know exactly what they have and what they don't well this is where for some the
00:53:24
levy broke and this is on September 17th 2017 when authorities in Colorado arrested a man named Daniel Nations for
00:53:35
having expired Indiana license plates police say he could be linked to the murders and call him a person of
00:53:43
interest in the deli case Daniel Nations is a sex offender from the state of Indiana and he was homeless at the time
00:53:52
of the murder so nailing down his whereabouts is difficult to say the least M nation's
00:53:59
wife says he resembles the police sketch of the suspect but did not own the clothing scene in the photo in fact she
00:54:09
told The Gazette newspaper quote I can't tell if that is him or not but the one thing I'm not going to buckle on he did
00:54:19
not have that jacket so Daniel Nations was arrested during the Tim Atkins murder investigation this murder took
00:54:27
place in the state of Colorado to be clear he was arrested during this investigation but he was not been
00:54:35
charged in the murder of Tim Watkins even though there are some who suspect Nations could possibly have killed Tim
00:54:43
right because he was seen and reported to be threatening people with a hatchet on the trails out there but Tim Watkins
00:54:50
was killed with a gun and authorities have been unable to link Nations to to a gun and the murder of Tim Watkins well
00:54:58
here's what happened in the public eye though you hear here's this guy that was arrested he was on these Trails he was
00:55:05
threatening people with a hatchet and you go and he's from Indiana and I believe he had a probation hearing or
00:55:13
some kind of hearing that he was supposed to show up to it was he's supposed to check in regularly because
00:55:19
he's a sex offender right he's like he's got a parole officer and all that jazz and he's got to show up and say hey I'm
00:55:25
here I'm still I'm still working at my job I'm keeping my nose clean I'm not doing anything weird but it was like
00:55:30
something he didn't show up yeah but it was like the week after the murders it was like some weird timing where it's
00:55:38
like so not only um do the you know not only do we not know his whereabouts when
00:55:44
he was in Indiana but he these murders take place and you take off and the next time next time we see you you're in
00:55:53
Colorado threatening people with that acting like a complete nut job and if you see his picture and you see the
00:55:59
first drawing uh of the suspect you go I can see that and then that was it they they were saying that they were
00:56:08
transporting him back to Indiana mhm and then we just kind of sat around for a while just wondering what was happening
00:56:16
yeah we talked about who I think does not look like the sketch or the bridge guy of what I think I'm seeing in the in
00:56:23
the picture there yeah if you put Mike Patty Ron Logan and Daniel nations in a lineup and said Nick which one of these
00:56:33
looks like the bridge guy I'm saying Daniel Nations please step forward here he looks to me a much more like
00:56:41
potential Bridge guy than the other two yeah same hair color as described as well same weird face but mhm he he
00:56:50
claims his Alibi is that he was tagging along with his wife for a doctor's visit
00:56:56
that day to which later she says I believe he was with me but I can't I can't prove 100% that he was in fact
00:57:05
with me that that day now keep in mind she's being asked this you know six months later right seven months later um
00:57:15
we covered Tim Watkins case if anybody's interested in checking that out earlier
00:57:19
this year in March this is episodes 284 and 285 and we also covered the Daniel nation's portion of that case in depth
00:57:28
in those episodes on February 14th 2018 one year after the double homicides of Libby and Abby authorities say Daniel
00:57:40
Nations is not a suspect saying quote we went out to Colorado and we spent a little bit of time with Daniel Nations
00:57:49
and he is not a person We Care a whole lot about at this time this comes from Super intendent Douglas Carter with the
00:57:56
Indiana State Police he said this at a news conference this is where I think the the DNA question comes up right
00:58:08
because you and I have been fairly vocal about this on off the record on our other show
00:58:16
questioning if in fact they have DNA now what we can report is this we know early in the investigation it was
00:58:27
stated that they had DNA that disappeared from the news at some point and disappeared from their statements at
00:58:33
some point yeah there's also rumor that very quickly I mean we're talking like the
00:58:41
next day two days after the girls were found very quickly in this investigation The First 48 for first 72 hours after
00:58:50
finding the bodies the local rumor is is that the state police were in the area knocking
00:58:59
on doors not only interviewing everybody that lived in the immediate area but also asking them to submit
00:59:08
DNA right which would lead you to believe that they have DNA but what if it was just like you know as a
00:59:15
cautionary measure and we're talking to you will you submit DNA you will thank you so much autopsy comes back we have
00:59:23
no DNA from the perpetrator and you're exactly right and that's that's the whole problem with public perception on
00:59:32
this case and others as well you can't immediately go well they're asking people for DNA so they must have it you
00:59:40
just you can't believe that because it is a tactic it's an investigative tool just to see if you can make somebody
00:59:47
squirm and if they squirm when you ask them a question or ask them to cooperate in any shape or form then you want to
00:59:54
know why the hell they're squiring right right so I I agree why are you a squiring verman yeah I I agree with you
01:00:01
100% here Captain I personally think that they have DNA or some form of DNA and I say that for a couple Reasons I'm
01:00:11
not convinced I'm not 100% convinced I could be talked the other way but this this whole statement of of
01:00:22
Daniel Nations is not really somebody that we really care a whole lot about that's that's like a vague statement of
01:00:30
almost well did you clear the guy because that sounds I mean the public it seemed like like watching the
01:00:38
old Frankenstein movie where the where there's a mob with torches that are ready to hang this guy yeah and and you
01:00:45
come out with some vague statement and I'm not criticizing police because I think they've done I think they've
01:00:50
worked incredibly hard on this case but the vague statement they've not been willing to show their hand they
01:00:59
don't have to they don't want to it's it's almost we're this is something that we're not really worried about to much
01:01:05
we but we have two dead kids and it's been over two years and oh but I I do not want the inv don't have to show
01:01:13
their hands they don't they don't right but I I would I understand who the victims are I'm not going to ask them to
01:01:20
compromise their investigation in any form or fashion no I don't want the to compromise it no so what I don't
01:01:27
understand what you're asking no what I'm saying is that I think your statement is a little
01:01:34
silly because it's like well they don't they don't have to show anything they don't have to do anything well whatever
01:01:41
they're they've done so far obviously hasn't worked I mean we have evidence of that so I I don't know
01:01:49
what they're supposed to do I'm not I'm not a a detective I couldn't tell you what they're supposed to do I I lean to
01:01:57
towards the idea that they don't have DNA and the reason why is because normally when they have solid DNA and
01:02:04
cases especially child murder cases we've seen this with John B Ramsey and other cases like that where they test
01:02:13
the DNA and they definitively tell you that this guy is cleared you see what I mean and that's
01:02:21
where I wonder if they have it because if they if they do have it and they're testing people
01:02:29
and they're clearing people and they're not making that public you know public knowledge then that's a bad thing
01:02:34
because just you take this Logan guy for example these these girls are found on his property 30 Acres which is pretty
01:02:43
freaking big and think about the ringer that they put him through and if they had the DNA to test
01:02:52
against his who's they that put put Ron Logan through a ringer is that law enforcement or the
01:02:59
public because law enforcement is not in charge of the public no I understand that but again if law enforcement has
01:03:08
the DNA and they matched it and it didn't match Logan's DNA then I think you have a responsibility when you know
01:03:16
the public is going after this guy like you said like the old Frankenstein movies you I think have an obligation to
01:03:25
him you're supposed to Serve and Protect each individual and if you have a test that definitively shows that he wasn't
01:03:34
involved I think you have the obligation to then come out and go hey we know that
01:03:38
people are speculating that that is right but that's that's my reasoning that to me that's the evidence uh that
01:03:47
they don't have the DNA because or that they don't have Ron Logan's DNA yeah but
01:03:52
he was arrested they could have taken his DNA DNA then and same way with Nations so here's two individuals that
01:03:58
are highly suspect on top of that a third individual felony charge because I I think in in Most
01:04:06
states that you have to be charged and convicted of a felony to be forced to submit your DNA I could be wrong but
01:04:14
that's my understanding right to be forced but if you're again again okay obviously we don't know for a fact if
01:04:22
they have Logan's DNA or not uh do they have nation's DNA do they have you know the grandfather's DNA I'm not for sure
01:04:32
but I would just assume that if I'm the grandfather and and everybody's saying hey you kind of look like the bridge guy
01:04:39
and they and law enforc is telling me that they have DNA and I know I'm not the killer swap me
01:04:46
up so that to to me that's you like like I like you said to me there's not definitive evidence but to me there's
01:04:55
enough showing me they're not it's just like with this nation guy out of nowhere
01:05:00
it's kind of like well we're not that interested their exact words are he is somebody that we not we do not care a
01:05:08
whole lot about at this time right but again that's not definitive right that's what I said a vague statement right so
01:05:16
that makes me that makes me feel like they don't have the DNA evidence because they're kind of like well we don't care
01:05:22
about them at this time but I think if they had DNA evidence they would say we're not interested in
01:05:31
him with him about this case period not like we're not interested with him at this
01:05:38
time again though I go I I think that that goes back to a couple of things 100% it comes back to whether
01:05:48
they have DNA or not but on two different levels I think if they don't have DNA they want and they're fine with
01:05:57
the bridge guy walking around believing that they have it or suspecting that they have it right so they don't want to
01:06:04
show their hand on that front if they don't have it now if they do have it and there's something up with
01:06:11
it right that's tricky too there could be some kind of um what do they call that when there's
01:06:19
actually a mixture well there there's a bazillion different things that could be
01:06:23
going on with it so one it could be that they have it but it their sample is of such that they need to compare it to a
01:06:32
profile and they can't really do a whole lot with it without having a having a match to compare it to right if that's
01:06:40
the case that's difficult or they could have it and it be contaminated right they could have you know what I mean
01:06:47
there's there's a million different things that you can really go into here the reason why I go on the opposite side
01:06:54
and and what's interesting I think here is that really you and I kind of have the same argument for different sides of
01:07:00
the fence is that my where I lean to that they probably have some form of DNA is that they are somewhat dismissing
01:07:11
people and we see that with Nations which is which is the same and just as good of an argument as yours saying well
01:07:18
they've not cleared other people who probably should be cleared in the eyes of the public right and so therefore it
01:07:24
makes me think that they don't have it I the DNA and and the the other reason why
01:07:28
I say that too though is is with the press conferences with talking with with the family members and
01:07:36
everybody's respect for these law enforcement officers and the respect that you could
01:07:43
you got to give it to them just when you hear the press conference how much they
01:07:46
care how much they're working towards this they seem like good officers and if they were able to clear guide that that
01:07:54
the society was trying to throw shade on I think they would do it you know 100% I
01:08:00
think they would come out and say 100% this person's not involved in the murder of these children I can't wait until
01:08:06
they do solve this thing because I think that the the full story that comes out about the investigation and the way that
01:08:15
they took this the directions that it's gone in whether they took it that direction or the investigation LED them
01:08:21
in that direction I I think the it it it will end up being a very interesting story from that aspect of this case and
01:08:34
I I think that like just like they have said we can't we can't tell you everything that we know one day we would
01:08:43
like to sit down and do that and where I say that I they don't have to show their
01:08:48
hand and I don't want them to and you question well it's not working it's not working working in the sense that we
01:08:54
know that they've not arrested the killer they've not arrested the bridge guy he's not sitting there waiting to go
01:08:59
to trial but where where in fact it that same tactic may be working is they may be Crossing people off their
01:09:09
list and the suspect pool is going to get shorter and shorter and shorter and smaller and smaller and smaller so it
01:09:16
may be working in some form and fashion that's just not obvious to us [Music] make sure you join us back here in the
01:09:36
garage tomorrow for part two until then be good be kind and don't [Music] litter
01:09:56
[Applause] [Music] Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I
01:10:13
thought it was an Eco move few your worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iconic
01:10:21
must be a tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare upfront prices book a service
01:10:27
instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us so much more than
01:10:33
just a list get started at angie.com that's ngi or download the app today