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[music] [music] [music] >> Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
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for listening. I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who says movies don't create psychos, movies make
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psychos more creative. Here is the captain. >> It's good to be seen and good to see
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you. Thanks for listening and thanks for telling a friend. >> Today we are still sipping on this
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of the business. >> All right, everybody gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some
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true crime. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> The FBI and Arizona police are still
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looking for a wanted man, Jason Derek Brown, who is accused and responsible for a 2004 armed robbery that resulted
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in a homicide. This guy has been on the run for 18 years now. And as we discussed yesterday, Captain, we brought
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up the fact that we covered the FBI's 10 Most Wanted Fugitives List back in 2017.
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And I pointed out that the list has changed considerably since then. There's only one individual still on the list
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that I believe was on the list when we discussed it 5 years ago. And in fact, our episode may have done some good
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because there was change to the list within days of us releasing our episode. So, if you go to truecrimegarage.com
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and you check out our blog, uh most weeks when we put out an episode, we put up a a blog on that case. And you can
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get on there and you could submit a tip. You could ask a question about that week
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shows. You could provide some information. A lot of times we get locals, people that are local to the
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case that we just covered that they get on there with some somewhat insider information that you would kind of have
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to be a local to know, and they give us a little more details about the crime or
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the person that we might be looking for if it's a missing person's case. But, if
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you go to our blog and you check back from 2017 on the most wanted episodes, you'll see that we had some good get on
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there and comment. And one of the individuals was a Kylie from New Jersey who posted that just 3 days after we
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released our episodes, Walter Yovani Gomez was apprehended. He was somebody that was on the list. New Jersey gang
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member Walter Yovani Gomez, wanted in connection with a brutal murder, was arrested without incident August 11th,
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2017. They found him in Woodbridge, Virginia. And then, a week later, a little more
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than a week later, Luis Macedo was apprehended August 26th in Mexico. And Sarah from Parts Unknown says, "I
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like to think that it was because someone heard this episode and checked out the list."
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>> Yeah, and we're still waiting on our checks from the FBI. >> Yeah. Yeah, there would have been
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rewards in both of those cases. And so, good to see that the quick apprehension of some of these people that were on the
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list. As we stated yesterday, Jason Derek Brown is no longer on the list, but they're going to have a spot opening
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up. So, I'm hoping that they use the excuse of this movie to place him back on the list and to really put him back
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into the eyes of the media. And it was this case being in the media that led to a bunch of sightings. You know,
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everybody wanted to know, where could this guy be? Where is he? There were several sightings. We mentioned
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yesterday that he speaks fluent French and there were possible sightings in Canada. He's also somebody that was
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raised in the Mormon community and for a while at least there were they were getting sightings of Jason Derek Brown
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in the greater Salt Lake City area. Investigators even went so far to say publicly that they believed that Jason
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Derek Brown may have been hiding in plain sight among the Mormon community. Under an assumed identity. And then
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there were locations as far away as Quebec and Thailand that have been referenced in the Jason Derek Brown case
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as well. One thing that I found in my research here Captain that I've found fascinating was an article from April
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20th, 2020 from the Richland Source. And the title of their article was authorities Arizona fugitive sought for
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murder may have been spotted in Mansfield, Ashland, Ohio area. There's a picture of Jason Derek Brown in the
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article and the article's coming out of Mansfield, Ohio and it says authorities are seeking an Arizona man sought for
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murder that has possibly been spotted in the Mansfield, Ashland area of Ohio. Jason Derek Brown 50, he would have been
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50 in April of 2020. Of Phoenix, Arizona headlines this week's list of most wanted fugitives compiled by the
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Northern Ohio Violent Fugitive Task Force and Richland County Division for the week of April 20th. Brown is 5 ft 10
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in tall, 175 lb approximately with green eyes and blonde hair. He is wanted for murder and armed
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robbery in Phoenix. Authorities did not say where or when he may have been spotted in this
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Richland County area of Ohio, but urged citizens to not engage with him, but call for help immediately.
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>> Well, and based off his age, I mean, at this point his hair might not be blonde,
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it might be gray. And and you would think that the stress of running from law enforcement for the
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last 14 years would maybe add to those gray hairs. But I'm going to just put this out there.
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A con man, maybe the job gets a little easier as you get older because you wouldn't be suspecting
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a older gentleman to try to con you. >> Well, and let's let the experts weigh in
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on the possibilities of where he could be, too. So, going back to Lance Leising, Special Agent Lance Leising,
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who was the agent in charge of this manhunt and portions of the investigation that led
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to this manhunt. When he's asked, he was asked, you know, not just where could he
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be, but also do you think that Jason Derek Brown may have committed suicide? That maybe he's
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no longer alive. And Leising goes on to say, quote, it's a possibility. There are some family members that will and
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friends that say that they think that happened. Leising goes on to say, quote, it's a possibility. There are some
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family members that will and friends that say that that is what they think happened. He goes on to say, I don't
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know why he fled for a while. He planned the flight. The agent says that he believes Jason Derek Brown was ready for
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this. That that he could run at a moment's notice, which is what he did, obviously.
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And so, he said that based off of that information, that he does not believe that suicide would be something that
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Jason would do. And he says, I'm not a psychologist, but he didn't want to get into the minds of all of that stuff too
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much, but he says, "If you think of yourself that much, that highly of yourself is what he's saying, suicide is
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probably not at the top of the list of things that he's going to do." >> Well, we know what he got from the
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robbery, but we also don't know what other robberies he might have been involved in.
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So, we don't really know how much Like Like they said, FBI The FBI believes that this individual
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could have ran at any time, and maybe was planning for that. How long was he planning that for?
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And how much money did he have stashed back to do so? And did he have other resources that he already had set up?
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Did he set up other accounts? Did he already come up with an alias? Did he already establish an identity
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alternative identity? These are I mean, he was a con man for so long, and I don't believe that Jason was a dumb
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individual. I believe he he did have a a brain in him. >> Well, a a big enough brain that he was
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able to con people out of money. And continually steal from people, and commit fraud over and over again. And
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one thing that I thought was interesting, too, is that the reporter asked the agent
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"Well, what about plastic surgery? Do you think that that's something that he Jason Derek Brown may consider to change
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his look very dramatically?" The agent's answer is, "Look, the pictures we have of him are old, so he's going to change
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look and appearance just in age alone, but also, um that that's plastic surgery was
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something that Jason Derek Brown may have discussed with family at some point, and that that would, of course, change
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potentially change his look dramatically. >> Right. >> And then yes, Jason would have every
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reason to want to continue to hide from the FBI and hide from the authorities. So he of
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course does not want to look anything like the pictures out there, the pictures of him that are
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out there. >> Another thing that's very fascinating to me is like I was saying before, this guy
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gets his validation from outside sources. But he did live a pretty normal life up until some point
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when there was a switch that was flipped. And so could a individual go back to that?
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Again, you see a guy just working a regular job driving a pickup truck you know, change his hair color, maybe
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change his nose and you go that that does it doesn't look like the same guy, doesn't act like the same guy.
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And maybe that's why we haven't caught him yet, but it's also super fascinating because he's not the only individual in
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the family that's missing. >> That's correct. His father's been missing for even longer than Jason has
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been missing. >> So that then that makes you wonder was he able and and let's just go over his father's story
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real quickly. It seems like his father was a little bit of a con man got into some
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gambling and things of that nature. >> Maybe even some gang activity. >> Right. And and so some people go, well,
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he's he's not alive anymore. He was taken out by people and then other people say, well, he's on
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the run from those people. Not law enforcement, but maybe gangs or or organized crime.
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So is it possible that he had some contact with his father and was they they're on the run together?
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>> Yeah, it's really interesting because his sister, of course, is portrayed in the movie
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American Murderer and and plays a large role in this overall story, this true crime story, but she's on record as
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saying that she believes, or at least at one time did believe, that the disappearance of Jason Derek Brown's
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father and Jason himself being on the run were were completely tied and completely connected. And she believed
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that it could be connected in one of two ways. Either the father, their father has stayed on
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the run successfully for all of these years and somehow Jason learned how to stay a ghost
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based off of his father being a ghost. Or the other way that it could be connected
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in her mind was she said that there are days that she thinks that maybe Jason Derek Brown is responsible
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for the disappearance of his father. That and the way that she worded it, Captain, and her tone doesn't make it
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sound like he helped his father to disappear in this sense, that maybe he killed his father and made him
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disappear. >> Right. That [snorts] right. The the murder of the armed guard is not his first murder.
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Look, we know he's capable of a heinous murder. Does that make him capable of murdering
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his father? Absolutely. And then, is that the only two? Or there are other murders that are involved because
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of Jason Brown constantly trying to con people and probably getting into some sticky
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situations and maybe sometimes murdering somebody is the way out of that sticky situation.
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>> The FBI has also stated that they have reason to believe that at some point and they don't give it clear
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information. Like the more the public knows, the more the public has the chance to help you guys here. But they
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state that they have information that at some point while Jason Derek Brown was on the run, that he likely visited
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people he knew in the Salt Lake City area. But then an agent goes on and this is
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interesting, too. This is something for I hope the listeners' ears perk up a little bit and they pay extra attention
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to this. Because because again, our purpose of us covering Jason Derek Brown, again, is for the purpose of
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apprehending him. Just like when we covered the list 5 years ago. But an agent says, quote, "It's very hard for
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individuals to change the way they live, the way they behave. This is a guy who stays in shape, likes fitness, likes to
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look good. We are hoping that he is seen at a nightclub or a fitness club." And then they go on to say that he,
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Jason Derek Brown, is an outdoorsy type as well. So, he would be very comfortable outdoors. Well, one of the
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people listening to our coverage of the most wanted list in 2017 was writer and director Matthew Gentile,
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who is responsible for putting out this fine film American Murderer, which is in
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theaters now. I'll give a little description of the movie here, Captain. It's obviously based on a true story.
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They say this riveting thriller follows murderer and American fugitive Jason Derek Brown, a charismatic con man,
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bankrolling his extravagant lifestyle through a series of scams. Jason Derek Brown is played by Tom Pelphrey.
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On Brown's trail is Lance Leasing, a dogged FBI special agent played by Ryan Phillippe. Lance Leasing is determined
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to put Brown behind bars. When Brown's funds run low and his past catches up with him, he plots his most elaborate
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scheme yet, pitting himself against the special agent in a deadly game of cat and mouse and becoming the most
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unlikely and elusive fugitive on the FBI's most wanted list. >> We'll get to that interview with Matthew
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right [music] after this quick beer break. >> [music] [music] [music] [singing] [music]
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>> Joining us here in the garage for the very first time we have screenwriter and
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director Matthew Gentile, who is here to talk about his new true crime movie that
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is coming out based all on a true story or mostly on a true story and we'll get into reasons why here in a bit. Matthew,
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introduce yourself to the audience. Tell us a little bit who you are and tell us
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about this wonderful film that's coming out. >> Hi Nick. Hi Captain. Thank you so much
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for having me. Um as you said, my name is Matthew Gentile. I'm a filmmaker. Um this is my first feature film, American
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Murderer. It's a true crime thriller about Jason Derek Brown, charismatic con man who became the FBI's most unlikely
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and elusive top 10 fugitive. It'll be coming out in theaters October 21st, on demand and digital October 28th and I'm
00:19:04
here to talk about it with this movie, the case it's based on and with you and your with you and the captain and your
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incredible audience and I'm excited to connect. I'm a fan of the podcast, so I'm very grateful to you guys for having
00:19:16
me on. This will be my first true crime podcast as we're recording it, so I'm excited to to chat with you.
00:19:22
>> Well, welcome in, and we covered a little bit of the Jason Derek Brown story years ago when we
00:19:31
explored the FBI's top 10 most wanted fugitive list with our listeners. And at the time, Jason Derek Brown was one of
00:19:41
the criminals that was on that list. The FBI was seeking this individual, and this is
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very much a an FBI case as well as a local case for the local police there in the greater
00:19:54
Phoenix, Arizona area. Now, this is still a bit of an unsolved case because Jason Derek Brown, while he has
00:20:02
been removed from the top 10, he is still a wanted fugitive. The FBI and authorities are still looking for
00:20:11
him because he is wanted for murder and other crimes. How do you How does a Matthew Gentile
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How do you get involved in this story? How How did you become aware of Jason Derek Brown, his
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crimes, and and then you have to to write this. You have to almost live in the mind of this
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individual or at least have him on your mind for quite some time. >> Well, first of all, it's a great
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question. Thank you for asking me that, uh, Captain Nick. Um, the way I became the story came to me was when I was
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between the ages of 10 and 14, uh, before I wanted to be a filmmaker, I wanted to be an FBI agent. So, I used to
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have a habit of going on the FBI's top 10 most wanted list on their website and looking at it to see, you know, if I
00:21:01
could help them catch a fugitive for the reward money. That was a foolish, naive
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dream I had as a kid. Um, I learned about the Top 10 list from watching the movie Silence of the Lambs
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and then it's less good sequel Hannibal, where they show the FBI Top 10 list on a
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computer. So, my 10-year my 11-year-old brain ran with that and would go on the list and look at the fugitives. And on
00:21:21
the FBI Top 10 list, as you two know from your episode and your coverage on the FBI Top 10 list, that there's a lot
00:21:27
of there's a sea of pretty menacing mean faces. You know, you've got Whitey Bulger, Osama bin Laden, and quite
00:21:34
sophisticated higher-level and high-operating criminals. And then you have on that list this surfer dude from
00:21:40
Southern California with spiky blonde hair who looks so much like Sean Penn that as I'm sure you know from what
00:21:47
you've read on the about the case, Sean Penn's body double was arrested twice in
00:21:50
the years Jason's been missing. So, you know, the first thing I think when anyone sees any image of Jason Derek
00:21:56
Brown, regardless of my film or before it, you know, they think, "This guy?" You
00:22:01
know, it's always been a There was always a little bit of that. So, his face stood out to me. Age 14, uh, when I
00:22:07
I was 14 years old when the crime was committed. He became a Top 10 fugitive a few years later in 2007, but I
00:22:13
remembered his face on the on the fbi.gov's site. So, cut to, you know, we're about 12 years later. I
00:22:21
graduated from film school at AFI, American Film Institute, and you know, I was lucky to short films I had made. I
00:22:28
made a western and it's all about a rock star losing his hearing. Those two films
00:22:31
were playing a lot over the festival circuit. I was getting a lot of attention for them and I was trying to
00:22:35
figure out what would be my first feature as a filmmaker. And you know, that's kind of
00:22:41
always the big thing when someone when you graduate film school or you have a short film that does well as everyone
00:22:45
says, "What's your feature?" And I was kicking around a couple different ideas attached to various projects. I've
00:22:50
always liked films in the crime thriller drama space, you know, the movie that made me want to be a filmmaker is a
00:22:57
classic true crime film Dog Day Afternoon. You know, I had read that when I was 12 and
00:23:02
became obsessed with it. My father showed it to me and I my mom bought me the screenplay as a Hanukkah gift
00:23:08
because they used to sell screenplays on street stands in New York City and she saw me eyeing it and she bought it for
00:23:14
me for $10 and that was the first time I read a script. So for me, I always loved
00:23:17
films about anti-heroes, you know, criminals, you know, for me like a lot of my kids my age were into
00:23:23
Pokémon and uh, you know, whatever it was at the time. For me, it was gangsters, con men, you know, criminals.
00:23:29
That was that was my that was those were my Pokémon. So, you know, I'm I'm out of school. I'm
00:23:35
figuring out what my next, you know, what my first feature is going to be and I'm storyboarding for a shoot. I was
00:23:40
shooting a commercial at the time. And I'm I'm drawing on my images and whenever I storyboard, I I always have
00:23:46
something on in the background. Usually it's a it's a true crime docu-series of some kind.
00:23:51
And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Jason's face popped onto my TV screen. The same and I just all like you know,
00:23:59
it'd been 12 years since I'd maybe even thought of him or heard, you know, it but it just it came rushing back. I just
00:24:05
saw it and I was like, that's weird. And so I started watching it, neglected my storyboards.
00:24:11
And I said to myself, "Oh my god, this guy is still missing. He's still out there. How what happened? How did that?"
00:24:17
And so I became, you know, pretty enraptured and you know, I have a mentor named Billy Ray who's a top
00:24:22
screenwriter. He's written films like Captain Phillips and The Hunger Games and you know, he's a great great writer
00:24:27
and great guy and he said to me like his rule of if he should write a script is if I don't if I wake up thinking about
00:24:33
the project, that's the project I should do. It's a great barometer I think for any, you know, anyone in any field and I
00:24:39
I couldn't stop thinking about this movie. I just, you know, watching the story about Jason, but you see, you
00:24:45
know, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. For me, the movie is as much about Jason Derek Brown as it
00:24:51
is about the web and the people who knew him and who loved him. And you know, those are the various lenses through
00:24:57
which we see Jason throughout the film. So, for me, you know, at first it was like, "Okay, cool. This has a lot of
00:25:03
elements of like a fun, pulpy crime thriller, you know, an armored car heist, you know, a con man." I love con
00:25:08
man stories. But, what ultimately became the emotional engine for me and my way in as a filmmaker,
00:25:15
you know, cuz to me American Murderer is a movie about family. That's the theme.
00:25:19
Uh every movie to me has a theme, and for American Murderer it's family. Um but, you know, that became through, you
00:25:25
know, multiple rewrites and drafts. And so, you know, basically the the process of
00:25:31
how it went about getting made, cuz I'm assuming you from your question you want
00:25:34
to know about that as well, you know, the the way it came from an idea of, "Okay, here's this guy Jason Derek Brown
00:25:41
who interested me when I wanted to be an FBI agent to how does this become a movie?"
00:25:46
At first, I began writing the script, you know, on spec, which means just, you know, on my own, on my own time,
00:25:53
thinking maybe, you know, I could try to sell the script cuz it felt ambitious for a first-time director, you know, to
00:25:59
do. It's a big, you know, pretty big movie for that. But, as I started writing it, I just began to research the
00:26:05
case. You know, I started I did begin interviewing some people. I'm not going to name exactly who cuz I don't want to
00:26:10
out them, but I did interview people who knew Jason and were associated or associates of associates, and I began to
00:26:16
gather a lot of intel and information in addition to reading everything I could get my hands on that was out there,
00:26:21
which on this case there is a lot of stuff. Um so, I became pretty obsessed. I resembled Jake Gyllenhaal's character
00:26:27
in Zodiac. Just wanted to know everything I could. And then I began to write a script. Um
00:26:34
and, you know, the first versions of the script were actually like just really going with Jason's point of view.
00:26:40
But, what it ultimately became as the movie progressed was an ensemble film, where it's really about
00:26:47
seeing Jason through all these various perspectives. And, you know, we um you know, at first, the way the thing
00:26:54
that really got it going was I made a proof-of-concept short of the film. I shot one scene from it, which was
00:27:00
actually the climactic SWAT invasion, um, in the movie I did it completely differently.
00:27:05
And I shot a, you know, 5-minute scene. We had this great actor, Jonathan Groff,
00:27:08
in it. It was attached at the time. And once that, uh, short went around and his
00:27:14
show, Mindhunter, dropped, a lot of people were, you know, interested in it. And this company, Traveling Picture
00:27:19
Show, and two companies, Traveling Picture Show, run by Kevin Matusow and Carissa Buffel, and, uh, GG Films, run
00:27:26
by Gio Walsh, these three producers, at various points in the process, came together and banded, and they really
00:27:33
backed me and supported me and really loved the script and were, you know, uh, helped me develop it into something much
00:27:39
better than it initially was. And, you know, we came together and we made this thing in the, at the height of the
00:27:45
pandemic. So, it was quite a journey, but, you know, at the end of the day, it was really Jason's story, and it began
00:27:52
by just seeing the image of his face on this top 10 list, you know, to really trying to see him as
00:27:57
a full, fleshed-out character, um, who I could talk a lot about. >> And you were kind enough to send us a
00:28:04
screener, so we've been able to view it before this, our sit-down here today. And of course, the movie is about Jason
00:28:11
Derek Brown, his crimes, but it's also about his family and then his fugitive status. So, tell everybody about your,
00:28:20
you know, you did a lot of research on this guy, and tell us about Jason Brown and what you learned about him in your
00:28:27
research. >> Well, Jason, you know, there's, as I said earlier, there's a lot written
00:28:31
about him. And part of the, you know, challenge of making a true-crime film, I would consider my
00:28:36
genre it's true crime, but I do true-crime fiction, meaning that this is based on a true story. There was a lot
00:28:41
of research, but also in the process of making a movie, one, you know, a director and screenwriter and actors,
00:28:47
too. Everybody has to take creative liberties to make it, you know, work as a film. Um so, you know, what's in
00:28:54
there, there's the line between fiction and truth is quite blurry in a movie like this. But, you know, there was an
00:29:00
extensive research process while I was writing the screenplay. What I learned about Jason Derek Brown was, you know,
00:29:05
and a lot of this is in the film or vaguely covered in the film, um you know, is that he was a con man. Um you
00:29:12
know, first and foremost, that was his profession. You know, Jason was not a guy who liked to work a 9-to-5. You
00:29:18
know, he was somebody who, you know, would would come into a neighborhood with lots of toys, Cadillacs, BMWs, you
00:29:25
know, and he presented himself really as like a rich frat guy, you know, um in a
00:29:29
in a suburban neighborhood. And we show that in the film as through his relationship with his his landlady love
00:29:34
interest played by Idina Menzel and uh her son. Um you know, so, he's he's somebody who
00:29:40
had that larger-than-life personality, would buy you a drink at the bar, you know, would take you out, you know, it
00:29:45
just was a lot of fun to be around, that kind of charismatic guy. You know, his crimes were pretty petty for the most
00:29:53
part, bank fraud, things of that nature, you know, but he was always basically traveling around place place, never
00:29:58
staying in one place for too long so that he could, you know, stay off the trail of creditors and people who were
00:30:04
on to him. As his crimes escalated, his his pet his petty cons, you know, he started to basically lose the ability to
00:30:12
do it. He he became desperate in his own mind and decided to rob an armored truck
00:30:16
and that became, you know, what was the central crime that put him on the FBI's top 10 list. So, you know, his
00:30:22
upbringing, which there is quite a bit written about, and one of the, you know, the craziest mysteries of the movie is
00:30:29
also about how his father, um who was a con man himself, um you know, the the the background of Jason's
00:30:36
interesting because he actually came from a very, it looked like on the surface a strict Mormon upbringing. They
00:30:40
were a Mormon family, the Browns, but um Jason's father was a con man himself and
00:30:46
had criminal ties, and he his father disappeared off the grid in 1994, 10 years before Jason
00:30:54
did. So, there's a bit of an odd mystery around that. In terms of the research process, there was a lot written about
00:31:02
these characters, you know, which was my main source of information was from There were a lot of documentaries made
00:31:08
about them. There were a lot of articles. There was even a book at one point. There's a lot There are a couple
00:31:12
books. So, there was a lot of information out there, which, you know, I read and used, and I, like I said, I
00:31:17
did interview people. There's a couple of characters in the film who are what we call composite characters, meaning
00:31:22
they're based on one or two folks, some of whom were interviewed to give me as much information about Jason as
00:31:27
possible. But then I ultimately take all that information, of which there is a lot, and there are some amazing
00:31:32
true things that happened that unfortunately can't make the movie. I I find doing research extremely important.
00:31:38
One key part of my research process I will can talk in depth about was my um I have I was very lucky to work with a
00:31:46
detective named Adam Richardson, who actually runs a podcast called uh the Writers Detective Bureau, Writers
00:31:51
Detective Bureau. Um he consults a lot of screenwriters and directors in Hollywood, and he actually I'm sure you
00:31:59
guys are aware of the Jesse James Hollywood case? >> Mhm. >> Yes. >> He actually was a detective who worked
00:32:04
that case, and I believe he arrested Jesse James Hollywood. If not, had a key role in in getting him back here. So, he
00:32:10
was He worked the case of Jesse James Hollywood, and he worked very closely with me and gave me a lot of incredible
00:32:17
and valuable insight into the police procedural process, um because, you know, we were not able
00:32:21
to consult with the FBI on the film because the FBI It is an open case still, um even though Jason was taken
00:32:27
off the top 10 list. It's the case is still open, and Jason technically still is reported missing. So, you know, it
00:32:34
The FBI can't cooperate with filmmakers or authors on a case on an open investigation, but you
00:32:39
know, we were able to use the FBI in the film and all of that, but yeah, this detective Adam Richardson was
00:32:46
phenomenal. He really helped me you know, make sure I know it's our presence was interesting. He read a
00:32:51
couple drafts of the screenplay and after I consulted with him, I definitely made some things better and more
00:32:57
accurate. Um but while I was even on set shooting, you know, when we were staging the crime
00:33:03
scene and all those elements, I was showing Adam you know, I was FaceTiming him from the set. I couldn't have him
00:33:09
there cuz it was COVID and or the amount of people we could have on set was limited, but he was FaceTiming me for
00:33:14
all the things like the SWAT invasion, you know, to the car chase, you know, to to every police element in the script
00:33:20
that the stakeout and the uh >> [snorts] >> storage units, all those, you know, action set pieces, this gentleman Adam
00:33:26
Richardson was very generous with his time and really helped me uh you know, know as much about police procedure as I
00:33:31
could so that we were portraying it accurately and authentically as possible. >> It's interesting though, too, because I
00:33:36
look at somebody like Jason Derek Brown and I I cannot help but wonder was it the divorce that spawned this
00:33:46
kind of wild behavior that led into a lot of criminal activity, petty leading up to this
00:33:53
execution-style murder or was it his personality that led to his divorce or you know, the
00:34:01
the chicken or the egg. We don't know what happened first or what led to one thing led to another. But yeah, he has a
00:34:07
very bizarre upbringing to me. Almost, you know, raised by by a criminal-like father,
00:34:14
but also goes off on this missionary adventure and he's talked very highly of by a lot of people that were very close
00:34:25
to him and then he is accused of this execution-style murder, which is mean, this is one of the
00:34:32
most cold-blooded homicides that I can think of, right? Like >> Right. >> Yeah. Jason Derek Brown knew he was
00:34:40
killing someone that day when he woke up and when he went to the AMC theater that
00:34:45
day. The thing The thing that is so horrific about this to me is he didn't know the individual's name. It
00:34:54
didn't matter the individual's name. It didn't matter who that person was. He was going to rob that armored car that
00:35:02
day and he was going to flee. And whoever happened to be holding the bag was going to be catching bullets from
00:35:10
Jason Derek Brown. And in your movie, one thing that I want to give you a big kudos on here,
00:35:15
Matthew, is I've read pretty detailed descriptions of that crime. >> Right. >> The way that it is in your movie, I
00:35:25
don't know that anybody could have done any better of a job playing that out for
00:35:30
the viewers. I mean, it I think you got it as accurate as you as one possibly could.
00:35:36
>> Well, thank you for saying that, you know. And like I said, you know, just like what you guys do in making true
00:35:41
crime podcasts, you know, research and authenticity is important, you know, and you want to capture it as authentically
00:35:47
as possible, you know. Um yeah, and that that you know, there was a lot to research because it was a very
00:35:54
It was actually a much more sophisticated crime than it looked like, you know, cuz exactly It was very
00:36:00
calculated um is the word I would use to describe the whole thing. You know, he scoped out the right alleyway. He scoped
00:36:07
out the you know, he knew what street he could go in. You know, look, um you know, I as a filmmaker, I find it's
00:36:14
very I cannot make a movie with passing judgment on any character I'm portraying, you know, whether it's the
00:36:19
antagonist, the protagonist. And in this case, you know, your antagonist is your
00:36:23
protagonist in this movie. Um you know, and on the record, what Jason did is a horrendous, horrific act as you, you
00:36:31
know, as you pointed out. You know, for me the power of of film and cinema is that you can look at characters like
00:36:39
Jason Derek Brown and put them under a light. So, you know, you can shine a light on a dark soul and ultimately try
00:36:46
to, you know, without being sentimental, move the audience to understand who this
00:36:52
person was. I'm not saying like and I'm not saying feel sympathy for, but help them see him for who he was and
00:36:59
what he meant to be because you're right, this man did a really horrifying, monstrous act.
00:37:05
He was also loved by many people. And so, that's what the movie ultimately is grappling with is is like, you know,
00:37:12
are we capable of having, you know, of moving an audience to a place of compassion, understanding for someone
00:37:19
who is a soul of someone who's rotten to the core and did something so heinous. And so, that's what I'm, you know, as a
00:37:24
filmmaker. And I'm not saying you can and I'm not saying you can't, I'm just asking
00:37:28
with the movie. So, you know, that's what That's the ultimate central question of like why, you know, when
00:37:34
people ask me in interviews, you know, why did you want to make this film? What made you want to tell this story? And
00:37:37
that was it for me. You know, is can you take someone like Jason and and move it
00:37:41
on. And you look, we grew up in the era, at least my generation did of, you know,
00:37:47
the TV shows Breaking Bad and The Sopranos, you know, and you watch Tony Soprano and he's he's a monster, he's a
00:37:52
sociopath, but you kind of can't help but love him a little. And so, or same with, you know, Walter White in Breaking
00:37:58
Bad. So, I I think, you know, film and TV is becoming more and more sophisticated in this way, especially
00:38:04
with all the shows that are out there and and the books and and the true crime boom that we live in right now, you
00:38:09
know, thankfully. Um, you know, in the in this true crime boom, it's it's asking the questions of
00:38:14
why. Why did someone do this? And I think, you know, there's a lot to unpack with this character. Um,
00:38:21
I don't know if that answered your question. >> I think somebody like a Jason Brown
00:38:24
lands on this top 10 list from the FBI for a multitude of reasons, but I I personally believe that it's probably
00:38:32
because the trail for the FBI on Brown went completely cold because he's not placed
00:38:39
on that list until 3 years after the crime. Part of it I think is the crime itself.
00:38:44
>> Mhm. >> When [clears throat] you really try to dissect the elements of that crime and
00:38:48
in the crime that he committed one robbing an armored car is not common. That's not a common crime at
00:38:56
all. Bank robbery is far more common than robbing an armored car. Now, you rob an armored car and what you see
00:39:03
traditionally, typically in those types of crimes, they are much more violent than a bank heist. Bank heist, the
00:39:12
majority of them, it's some guy passing a note to the teller. That's the way that the majority of them work. Most of
00:39:21
these armored car robberies involve a high level of violence and in this case murder. And Jason Brown ambushed this
00:39:30
this gentleman. Th- This guy was a guy just like the three of us who woke up this morning, went off to their work,
00:39:37
went off to their job. We want to do a good job. We want to knock it out of the park here today. And but at the end of
00:39:42
the day, our number one goal is to go home, to our homes and to our families. And
00:39:48
this individual was not able to do so because of the the cold, calculated mind of somebody
00:39:55
like Jason Brown. I mean, we're talking about Robert Keith uh Palomares, who was
00:40:01
only 24 years old, did not even get a chance to pull his firearm when he's attacked by Brown because
00:40:09
Brown ambushes him. Brown manages to get off six shots. He's at close enough range. We're not talking about a highly
00:40:16
skilled marksman here. We're talking about a guy that ambushed and and snuck up on this guy and and
00:40:22
the closer he got, the faster he was pulling that trigger. He hits Palomares six
00:40:28
five out of six shots hit above the neck on our victim. And that's because Brown
00:40:34
knows that that he is going to be wearing bulletproof vest and he's going to go for
00:40:41
parts on the the would-be victim that cannot be covered, cannot be protected. This Unfortunately, this individual
00:40:48
didn't stand a chance. He he didn't have a chance. There was no fight because he
00:40:52
was ambushed by Brown. And then Brown This is how cold he is. >> Ice cold. >> He he has to walk up to the body and
00:41:00
pull and tug on the money bag to get it out of to pry it from the fingers of our victim here.
00:41:08
To the point that he drops the bag, he drops the gun, and then he picks both of them up before before he flees. But I
00:41:14
and I think I think when you really kind of dissect this crime, and there's a lot
00:41:19
of thought put into it. There has to be. It's so calculated. You examine the mind
00:41:25
and the personality of the type of criminal that would carry out this type of crime and you see just how dangerous
00:41:33
this person is to the general public as a whole. Because he does not think of people the way that
00:41:41
you and I think of people. He does not think of life or this earth the way that the rest of us do. He sees this as a
00:41:50
grid, as a giant chessboard. And there's a lot of pawns out there. And as far as
00:41:55
he's concerned, there's very few kings, knights, and queens. And he's one of the
00:42:00
kings in his own mind. And the rest of us are just fodder. We're we're we're pawns to be dismissed, to be done away
00:42:07
with so that he can keep going. And that and that always makes him dangerous. And then on top of that,
00:42:14
while he's on the run, that makes him extremely dangerous as well because we've seen what he he will resort to in
00:42:22
this situation. And now that he's on the run, who knows what he's capable of. >> Yeah, definitely makes Jason Derek Brown
00:42:29
a very dangerous individual. And people that think they might know where he's at
00:42:35
should be very careful and contact law enforcement immediately. >> The one thing that the film
00:42:42
doesn't get into dive into too much, but I did want to get your opinion on because you
00:42:49
you you were you were busy writing and exploring this man and his crimes and his and his
00:42:56
personal life for such a long period of time. You know, one thing that a couple things that he did that were
00:43:02
very interesting, I thought, while he was on the run. At first, the police and the FBI, even
00:43:08
though they knew who who had committed this crime, they didn't come out and publicly announce that because they
00:43:15
thought that the the manhunt would change. There would be a giant shift in the manhunt and in Jason's actions and
00:43:22
behaviors based off of the fact that he is under the assumption that nobody knows that he
00:43:29
did this. He may know that people are looking for him or he knows he's on the run, but for a period of
00:43:35
time, he doesn't know that they know that he's the one that committed this crime. At some point, they have to
00:43:40
publicly announce that, and I think it was about a month or so after um the crime was committed. And then a a few
00:43:47
years later, he his name is added to this 10 most wanted list. But >> Well, actually, just to just a little
00:43:55
correction there. So, what what actually happened was in No- So, the murder was committed in November 29th, and they
00:44:01
figured it out quite fast uh because of the fingerprint left on the bike. They knew it was Jason. Or they knew Jason
00:44:07
was at least very much involved, right? On December 6th, I believe, Jason was staying at his sister's house and the
00:44:15
Phoenix police did have a press conference where they released Jason's image from taken from the gun store,
00:44:23
which became his top 10 fugitive image. And that was put on TV and somebody, nobody knows who,
00:44:30
called or let Jason know that they were looking for him. And that was how he was able to get out
00:44:37
before the police and FBI stormed his sister's house. So, he was aware that he was wanted and
00:44:45
that's part of how he was able to get away. And then he actually drove his car down to
00:44:50
allegedly down to San Diego. Um they thought he was going to go across the border and then he's apparently got
00:44:59
cuz they he swiped his credit card at a gas station near the San Diego, Mexico border. And
00:45:05
then allegedly though did not cross. They had APB's out for him. And disappeared into the ether and they
00:45:10
found his car in Portland, Oregon. Now, nobody knows if he actually went to Portland, Oregon, right? He could have
00:45:16
not. >> Right. >> Yeah, that's another one of the many, many unsolved mysteries.
00:45:21
You know, he could have paid somebody to send the car up to Portland. But, um you know, but that's so that's just you
00:45:27
know, something to keep in mind was they did they did release um to the press and
00:45:30
that was considered, I think, by many people to be a huge mistake to release his image to the press when they did.
00:45:36
But, you know, they had their reasons, I'm sure. That's uh that's that. But, yeah.
00:45:41
>> Obviously, we can only track so much of his movements. Uh if we could track them
00:45:45
all, we wouldn't be having this conversation, right? Yeah, interesting to me, I goes down to San Diego,
00:45:52
gives the impression that he might be headed for Mexico. And then finding and then some trace of him in Portland,
00:45:59
Oregon gives the impression of maybe he's going the other route to Canada. >> Right. You know, it's like, you know,
00:46:06
he's a con man. You know, that's who Jason is at the core to me. Always was a con artist. How do con artists get you?
00:46:11
They prey on one's confidence, right? So, you know, I think he, you know, was And look, he was also coached in the art
00:46:19
of disappearing. You know, part of, you know, the storyline with his father is that he would, you know, they
00:46:25
the father used to say to the kids apparently growing up, "If I will If I'm gone for more than
00:46:30
you know, 2 hours or 48 hours, get rid of everything." So, you know, this was someone who knew
00:46:36
how to, you know, probably work under the black market, get fake IDs, whatever you needed to
00:46:43
get on out and and disappear, you know. So, it was pretty He was pretty sophisticated in that way as a criminal,
00:46:50
and then he's remarkably unsophisticated in other ways as a criminal. So, I think
00:46:54
that's what again makes him so interesting. >> I don't want to back you into a corner
00:46:58
here, Matthew, but uh Where do you think he is? >> into a wall get out. >> Where [laughter] Where do you think he
00:47:04
Where do you think he is? >> You know, we had in the production office of the movie, we had a running
00:47:08
list on the window of all the places he might be. Um, you know, for a while I I have thought
00:47:17
he was out of the country. [clears throat] That was always my guess during the writing
00:47:21
of the film. I think there's a very good chance he's not alive anymore. I think that's highly
00:47:25
possible. I don't know if that's true, but I think that could be the case. If he is, then he's still running, my
00:47:32
guess is somewhere either in like Australia or Southeast Asia would be my would be my best not, you know, I guess
00:47:40
somewhat educated guess, but it's a big mystery, you know, but I don't think he could be in the country.
00:47:45
I mean, he was allegedly spotted in Salt Lake City in 2008 where we filmed the movie.
00:47:50
And that was an area where he had tremendous ties to Salt Lake City. So, I mean, there There people in our crew who
00:47:55
knew him. Uh who who were very close to people who knew him. There was, you know, he but he
00:48:01
had you know, when we were scouting pawn shops and gun stores for the movie, there were people who would ask about
00:48:06
him like, "Oh yeah, I knew I knew Jason Derek Brown." Um so, there were you know, he he he had a lot of ties uh
00:48:14
to many different areas, you know, he also Jason's fluent in French. I think he also speaks spoke Spanish.
00:48:20
So, you know, that's a lot of the world that he could get through. >> Well, and so you say
00:48:28
if he is, in your opinion, if he's still alive, probably outside of the country somewhere. If he's not still alive
00:48:35
what's your speculation there? Are we Do we think cuz his attitude, his personality to me does not
00:48:42
in any shape or form suggest suicide. >> Mhm. Right. Me, neither. >> What I What I think could be a
00:48:50
possibility here if he's not still around would be Look, you can only con so many people
00:48:56
until until you con the wrong person and retribution takes place, right? Um >> Right.
00:49:04
>> And that that's kind of where where my my thoughts go to. But, I mean Let's He might not be on the top 10 list
00:49:14
anymore, but there's still a $200,000 reward out for >> Right. >> his for his capture and that's a lot
00:49:21
more money than what he made off in his armored car heist. >> Right. Well, that's the other thing you
00:49:27
know, people say a lot is you know, $60,000 isn't that much money. So, how did he
00:49:32
get out and go about How did he disappear? Like that's not a ton of money, you know,
00:49:38
it's not like in Breaking Bad when Walter White has all that money to go and disappear or
00:49:42
you know, Bob Odenkirk right or better you know, Saul Goodman has all that money to disappear. This is a different
00:49:46
scenario. So, yeah, you know, there there's endless speculation on where he can be. And you
00:49:52
know, to be honest, you know, I got I like I don't feel backed into a corner by that question at all. I think it's a
00:49:57
totally legit question that I've been asked before. You know, but I never really it's never been something that's
00:50:03
been that much on my mind, you know, as a filmmaker. I you know, felt like what for me the
00:50:08
movie ends when he's gone, you know, and that's it. And that's kind of where the
00:50:12
story ends, you know, I would be of course, if someone updated me and told me where he was or what actually
00:50:16
happened, I would definitely be interested to hear, but you know, the film wasn't so much about
00:50:21
that to me cuz look, even though and now maybe we'll call this a spoiler section,
00:50:25
so for your listeners, if you haven't seen the movie, maybe watch it before you listen to this very small part of
00:50:30
the interview. You know, maybe like for me the movie is about a loss of humanity in a human as
00:50:37
well. This is this man really eroded his own humanity to get this money, and he by the end of the film, yes, he does get
00:50:45
away with the crime in theory. But what kind of life is that? You know, he he he can never talk to anyone he knows or
00:50:52
loves again. He has to disappear. He has to, you know, he can't go out much, right? He has to kind of stay, you know,
00:50:58
so it's like at the end of the day, this man like has disappeared and it's it's as if
00:51:06
he is dead. You know, at the act of him sending a box of all his things to his sister,
00:51:12
you know, he's in a way saying goodbye forever Jason Derek Brown as far as you know him, no longer exists, right? He's
00:51:19
like erased his own identity pretty much. So, you know, while it is definitely not, you know,
00:51:25
it's a it is a tragic ending, and I think it's a tragic film. You know, the film is tragedy at at the core in terms
00:51:32
of what the how the story line plays out. So, yes, he does get away, but this is there's no happy ending, right, for
00:51:39
anybody involved. And I think that he he disappears. >> Yeah. [music] You let that
00:51:53
>> [music] [music] >> Want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage. Join us every week.
00:52:08
Make sure you subscribe to the podcast. One of the perks of having a true crime podcast is we got to watch the screener
00:52:17
of American Murderer. And that's this week's recommendation. >> Yes, you can find that recommendation
00:52:22
and many more on our recommended page on our website truecrimegarage.com. Go see American Murderer. It's in select
00:52:31
theaters now or if you want to stay home and watch it on the comfort of your own couch, it is
00:52:37
available on demand streaming on demand as well. That's American Murderer. Thank
00:52:42
you to Matthew Gentile for joining us this week in the garage. And check us out again next week. Same bat time, same
00:52:50
bat channel. Until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter. >> [music] [music]