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All right. Hey y'all. By the way By the way, the new trailer for Cobra Kai on YouTube. They're doing a season 2,
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huh? They're doing a season 2. The trailer came out the other day. Uh I don't know. Did you But you liked the
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first season? Season 1 was great, but it Here's my problem with it. is Cobra Kai at some point was
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Never die. Right. It was taking a turn to be something different than it was in the
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'80s. Right. And now it seems like oh, okay. Well, we're going to put them back into their roles
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and Cobra Kai is going to be bad. And Miyagi Dojo or Miyagi No Karate Dojo is going to start up.
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All the lessons are free because he doesn't need the money. And there's a clip of Daniel son saying,
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"I beat Cobra Kai before. I know how to beat him." or something like that. Right.
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Like, you beat them once. And then let's not count the third episode cuz that was just awful.
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So The third episode of season 1 of Cobra Kai. No, no, no, no. The third movie. The third movie. Yeah, let's just
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That one was just ridiculous. It's very cheesy the third movie. There was a fourth one, too, right? With
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Wasn't Hillary Swank the new Karate Kid? I vaguely remember that one, but what's
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weird is as cheesy as the third one was, I remember that one quite a bit better than the second one where they went to
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Japan. Right, but if you look at the fourth one Hillary Swank goes out to fight.
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And when she comes back to her corner, she falls and hits her head and goes into a coma.
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And then you have um What's his face? The old guy. I don't know. What Which old guy? For the Cobra Kai?
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No. I thought you meant maybe the Cobra Kai Clint Eastwood. Sensei. Clint Eastwood then has to pull
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the plug on her. In in Million Dollar Baby. Right, but that's the same ending as as number four. And then he then then
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when he pulls the plug, he says to her Cobra Kai never die. That's I think that's what happened in
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the fourth one. But I haven't seen it in a while, so Who knows? Million Dollar Baby,
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fantastic movie. Oh, great. That's a great movie. But like Clint Eastwood decided
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Okay, Hollywood has a bunch of movies that end well. Let me just make movies that have a sad ending.
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There's no I mean that's what he did. Right? He's done it like 10 movies in a row now. Yeah. Oh,
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Million Dollar Baby. She's going to do great job and then she's going to die in a coma.
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And then if you look at like uh What's that other movie where he uh is protecting the neighborhood and ends
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up getting shot to death at the end. Mhm. You just go Come on. Does all your movies have to end so
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negatively? The Mule was very good. I haven't seen that yet. I saw The Mule in the theater. Very
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good. Um Yeah, well, Million Dollar Baby alone if you haven't seen it is worth the
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watch just for the bickering between uh Morgan Freeman and uh Clint Eastwood. Yeah. That I mean that that's my
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favorite part of of the movie. They they tease each other back and forth and it's
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it's quite Well, and the bully scene, too. Where where the the guy that's a little slow
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is finally gets in the ring and he's getting beat up by the local bully. Mhm. The guy that has
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no heart but a ton of talent. Mhm. Then Morgan Freeman gets in there with one glove
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and knocks him out. Yeah. So, yeah, that's that's probably the best. Yeah. they call him? Danger?
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I You know, it's been so long. I Believe in it What? Million Dollar Baby? This probably what? 13, 14, 15 years ago? It
00:04:43
seems like yesterday. Right. But I except for I forget half the movie. Well, and and speaking of
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time going by, I mean we talked about talking about the new HBO docu-series. It's going to be a
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four-part series. Uh the case I believe it's called The Case Against Adnan Syed.
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Yeah. And um to think, you know, I graduated in '99 and to think that's we're coming up
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you know, 20 years. Yeah. And so it's it's pretty crazy to kind of look back and and when I was
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watching part one of the docu-series last night what's interesting about this case is
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since it's set in 1999 and both the victim, Hae Min Lee, and let's just say the suspect, right? Right.
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Or well, actually the convicted killer, we can say that. Right. Is they're they're both seniors in '99.
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So, they're the same age as me, but what's interesting about this case is there's not a lot other than
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a couple references to like passing notes in school or which I'm sure they still do even
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though you can text people. I'm I'm sure they still pass notes. And like the beeper.
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Like there's a couple people that have beepers. And other than that there's there's really nothing that kind
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of dates this case. Right. If that makes any sense. On that same note and I don't know that
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it so much dates the case because you this is still obviously available today but it was interesting
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I forgot about their little call system between uh Hae Min Lee and Adnan where you know they're not supposed to be
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dating. But they had some kind they had a system of she would call something else from her home phone from
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the landline and and he would know what time she was going to make that call and
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he would call her so she could just pick up on the the other line on the call waiting. No, so what she would do is
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she'd page him. Right. And then right after she paged him she would call the weather.
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Yeah, the weather. Remember can you still do that? Does that still exist? Like remember you could call we called
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it time and temp here, right? And that what was it was time and temp and it would be like
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you they'd pick it would have some tones at first and then it would tell you what
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time it was and it would tell you the temperature outside. Right. And what that day's forecast would be.
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Yeah, it's But yeah, so she'd call time and temp and then because of call waiting what
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would happen is if you had call waiting which really wasn't like not not every household had. Right. But if you had
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call waiting then when you're on the phone and somebody called you it would ring instead of get a busy signal.
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And then but when you're talking on the phone, you'd hear a little beep. You know, kind of like you hear now with
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your cell phone, if you actually talk on your cell phone. So, like I've mentioned multiple times,
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if you talk on your cell phone, it seems like now you're like a psychopath. Yeah, well, the call waiting thing is so
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that her parents don't pick up. Right. On you know, and and hear this boy on the line.
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And um so, I guess the first question I have for you is did you watch it? I did watch
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it. Um I do have to throw in a a little caveat here. I didn't watch the whole So, what it was about an hour long? Hour
00:08:22
and yeah, about an hour and five minutes, maybe an hour and 10 minutes. And so, I look, I love HBO. It's been
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one of my favorite channels for as long as I can remember. And but I had a lot of things going on
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yesterday and it came out at 9:00 last night. I think it was about It was a little after 10:00 by the time I was
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able to sit down and watch it. Mhm. Um and oh man, I just got my butt kicked yesterday. So, it was I I probably dozed
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off about 45 minutes into it. Mhm. And it's not so much it wasn't that it was bad or boring or anything like that. It
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was just it was just my day, you know, I I had a long day and I was tired. It I found it to be very interesting and it
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and it's one thing that and this is kind of generic to say, I guess, but sometimes when you watch these
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docu-series or documentaries on TV and it's something that you read a book about or in this case listened to a
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podcast about, Mhm. it one thing that's so refreshing and enlightening to me is seeing the
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visuals to go with the the story that you already know. Well, it changes, I think, your viewpoint a lot, a lot more
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than you'd think it would. I mean, just seeing the house in which he grew up in and and
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the house that um that she grew up in. It really reminds me of the neighborhood of our high
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school band. Mhm. Like, all the styles of houses were kind of of that that nature.
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Yeah. Um but to see that and then it's also hear stuff like, well, I think it's Heywood, the the school
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they went to, that being a whole different community compared to the one in which they grew
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up in. Yeah. Yeah. And so I thought that was interesting. I also thought the the visual
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I mean, agree or disagree, but I think this was, at least part one, told a lot of Hayman's story.
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Oh, yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. And I think that's something that Serial didn't get to. I
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don't know if they're I don't know why they didn't get to that. Maybe it was you know, cuz the case was more
00:10:43
interesting, but I think it sets her up a little bit more, tells her story a little bit better.
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And then I liked the drawings and the artwork. I did, too. And I thought that was very
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artsy, but it's it's funny because like that was like one of the number one things cuz I I after the show came out,
00:11:03
I just said, "Hey, what what did everybody think of this?" Mhm. And probably And of course, a lot
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of people were just liking the post, so it's not like everybody that watched the
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the episode uh is commenting on this, but one of the major comments was they didn't care for that part of the
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presentation. That they just kind of thought it was fluff. But if you if you didn't do it that way,
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what would be the the alternative? Like, a reenactment? Like, Yeah. Which I don't think those turn out
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very Did they do any re-enactments? No, which I I I think those always turn out really cheesy.
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I think it's very rough to get the re-enactments to not be cheesy. Um you know, the the Amy Mihaljevic
00:11:49
documentary I thought they pulled them off fairly well, the re-enactments, but there was a
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few times where it was very Velveeta, like he you know, like you know, that they're probably telling
00:12:00
the actor, "Okay, now we need you. Could you put on a face that that you're suspicious of something
00:12:06
you just heard?" And it's always like it's always weird. Uh But I I like personally I like the
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drawling situation better than the re-enactment. Yeah, I liked it, too. And I And So, it
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was kind of funny cuz even on Twitter today, there was a lot of people saying, "Yeah, I didn't really care for that
00:12:24
part." And part of it is cuz I think maybe you're either more of a artsy individual or not, I
00:12:33
think. So, I appreciated that, and I And but I also think with these documentaries, it's really
00:12:42
strange because I was watching uh Ken Burns Unforgivable Blackness about um Jack
00:12:50
Johnson, the boxer. Uh-huh. And when you watch something like that, it's very dry.
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And it's there you know, it's Ken is doing his best job to be informative and then entertaining. And I think with
00:13:05
these documentaries becoming so big and so powerful in the spectrum of the landscape of our
00:13:14
society, that these documentaries, they it's not that you just watch it and you get information, and that's it. These
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documentaries are are are changing lives. And they're persuading the public opinion.
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So, on one sense, I think people were like, "Hey, I I didn't need to know this nonsense." And I think part of that is
00:13:38
cuz they knew some of it. And if And if you listen to Serial, and that's all you listen to on this
00:13:45
case, you're just you're talking about you got 5% of the case. You don't know much about this case. You
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have to dive into other podcasts like when Bob Ruff was doing um Serial Dynasty, which then turned into
00:13:59
uh Truth and Justice or Undisclosed podcast, which it basically took Serial and then magnifying that. And then after
00:14:08
that, did it again. And so, this is you know, Serial was just the tip of this case. Mhm. But so,
00:14:16
it's it's a it's a interesting dynamic to me because they all Now, you have to put out this information and
00:14:23
and then hopefully you're trying to put out new information that maybe you're not even able to put out through the
00:14:27
court system, but you're putting out for the public to view and to see what happens there.
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But you also have to make it entertaining. Mhm. Because if it's not, then people tune out.
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And and so, that's kind of a very interesting time, I think, because I I've watched
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documentaries where it's a guy at his desk for 2 hours going over stuff, and the only thing
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that ever changes is pictures pop up on the screen. Mhm. And I'm fine with that.
00:15:00
But I think as far as like to try to get something to persuade the community, it has to be entertaining. And so, I I
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did like that aspect of it was the the artistic aspect of the drawings instead of doing a reenactment. Was it
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Soaked in Bleach that did a lot of the drawing? Uh Soaked in Bleach did a a bunch of reenactments. Okay. They're
00:15:26
But they did it in a very interesting way because they hired actors to play each
00:15:31
individual part. Mhm. And then when they're reenacting, they're actually saying lines that were
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recorded. So, I think that's one of the things in Soaked in Bleach that people missed
00:15:45
was if she's in the hotel room talking to some of her friends, it's not speculation on what she said.
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They're There's a Yeah, recording of it. Right, there's a recordings based off the private investigator that she hired.
00:16:01
So, but anyways, I I like I said, I think that's an entertaining part of it and I think it
00:16:07
told her story really well, better than probably Serial did. Mhm. Well, and but I think part of that, too,
00:16:15
is you know, we try to do this from time to time. We don't we we don't we don't like to sit down each week and
00:16:23
start a case right at the beginning and finish right where it finished. Most of the time that's the formula, but
00:16:28
sometimes we try to change it up a little bit because even though these are real, true, tragic
00:16:35
stories, there is still a storytelling aspect to it. And I think to be It has to be entertaining. If it
00:16:45
doesn't grip you at all, you you lose interest. Yeah, and I think the um for Serial in comparison to the HBO
00:16:57
show, with them showing more of Hae Min Lee and telling her story so much more in
00:17:03
this first episode, I think with Serial, at least the way that it's presented, I don't know what their game plan was
00:17:11
going into it, obviously, but at least the way that it's presented to me, I like the way that they did that. They
00:17:16
I'm sure they got the Hayman Lee story at some point. It's been years since I've listened to it, but I remember the
00:17:22
start of it, at least the first episode or two was very little about the victim.
00:17:27
Like you said, and so much more about the case against Adnan. And what I what I liked about that was you have Sarah
00:17:37
Koenig and and her her partner, you know, whoever she works with, they kind of like review the story
00:17:43
that's been brought to them. And then they did spend a little bit of time going, "Okay, well,
00:17:49
is it even conceivable that he might have been innocent? Is it even possible that this timeline isn't correct, or it
00:17:57
is correct and he didn't have enough time to do what they have accused and convicted him of?" Right. And I and I
00:18:04
think that was kind of neat because there, when you're listening, it's almost like they're taking the listener
00:18:11
by the hand and you're going on the journey with them in a in a very logical way of of saying, "Okay, well, this
00:18:19
story was presented to me by somebody that might have a good good motive or good reason for wanting this conviction
00:18:26
overturned or bringing light to this, what they're calling a wrongful conviction. But let's go ahead and do
00:18:33
our own little armchair detecting and sleuthing and try to deduce what we think actually happened. And if it looks
00:18:42
blatantly obvious that this dude is guilty, then we don't need to drag you through the muck of this whole story
00:18:48
um because it is what it is. It is what what it what it the result was. And therefore, when they find chinks in the
00:18:58
armor, then they can go, "All right, well, now there's a story worth investigating
00:19:03
here. There's a story worth telling. Uh there's there's more investigation to be
00:19:08
had here." Mhm. And I think HBO's doing it more of a um so far what from what I've seen, it
00:19:16
appears to be a little more straight down the middle where I don't think Serial set out to be on the side of
00:19:23
Adnan. But, the story came to them from someone who was on the side of Adnan. So, it
00:19:29
Yeah, it came from Rabia. Yeah, so it goes into it in that way. But, I believe this was
00:19:36
I I believe the story from HBO is probably connected through Rabia as well, which Rabia is his cousin, I
00:19:43
believe. Mhm. And and I've got a chance to meet her and talk with her and she has an interesting story, too. I
00:19:51
mean, you're you're talking about I I think she's mother of three now, but you know, to be going through law school
00:20:00
and raising a family and and then on top of that to go, "Okay, well, I don't believe this guy is guilty. And
00:20:08
yes, he's a family member, but what can I do?" And she was very smart in the idea that media could do something that
00:20:14
they couldn't. Mhm. And nobody knew. Again, you picked media, but you picked a podcast.
00:20:22
Nobody knew the magnitude that it was going to be. You're talking about over 100 and some
00:20:29
million downloads. That's insane. We're talking about a eight-part series or 10-part series,
00:20:36
and you have that many downloads. That's That's a lot of listeners. million downloads or something? I don't
00:20:41
know have the numbers in front of me. I'm just going off of what I think they said last night.
00:20:45
No, over 100 million. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So, I think they showed a little clip of where they
00:20:51
were celebrating over 20 million, maybe. To to kind of amp it up to to for those
00:20:56
who didn't know or have heard standing around the water cooler to listen to Serial and maybe never got
00:21:03
around to doing it. Uh I think it's important for HBO to bring up how you know, what what this was for
00:21:16
a different a different angle of media, you know, a different and and it was it was so huge and it a lot of it was word
00:21:23
of mouth. A lot of it was friends telling friends, "Hey, you should listen to this and check it out."
00:21:30
Right. I mean, that's one of the ways our show has grown to be so big. It's just people
00:21:34
saying, "Hey, I listen to this show and it's entertaining." So, with the drawings, I think what I was thinking of
00:21:40
regarding Kurt Cobain was there was I think it's Montage of Heck. Right, which is yeah, a different documentary.
00:21:48
Which is which is not so much about the suicide. It's much more about his life. I think that was the one where they did
00:21:54
a lot of the it was all kind of reenacted through artwork, which I thought was for that movie in particular and maybe
00:22:03
that's what's opened my mind up to this idea for other documentaries to do it, but I thought they did so well with it
00:22:09
in that in that movie that it's it's incredible. Yeah, so it's really hard to cover the Adnan case because
00:22:16
there's a lot of people that are for his innocence or for his guilt and they're very
00:22:22
um passionate about it. Almost to the point where it's it crosses a line. And so, we've tried to cover it before.
00:22:33
We've discussed covering it, yeah. And we've um looked into the case obviously a bunch but what we
00:22:40
really want to focus on is not the fact whether or not he's innocent or guilty. Like, we don't want to just
00:22:48
as far as our viewpoints go. Um, we we want to discuss the documentary and points of evidence that they're
00:22:57
pointing out in the documentary that we find odd. So, is is there anything that jumped out to you
00:23:05
at first like by watching this and like cuz some of the information you've heard
00:23:08
before, obviously. Mhm. But, was there anything that jumped out to you where you went, "Mhm, that's strange."
00:23:15
Mhm, no, not necessarily because I and I'm not trying to downplay the documentary. I What I've seen so far,
00:23:27
it's good. But, it a lot of it was to me, at least the first episode, was a lot of telling me the story
00:23:38
that I've already heard. You know what I mean? Like I agree with that on some level, but
00:23:44
when they talk about the the day that she goes missing, if you if you don't know anything about
00:23:50
this case, these episodes aren't going to be interesting to you. So, uh you might
00:23:55
want to watch the documentary. If you haven't watched documentary, probably watch that. But, uh
00:24:02
so, there was a call the day that Hae Min is notified as missing. And one of the things that I
00:24:09
think is not pointed out enough in this case, is this is a missing person case Mhm. for about 3 weeks. Mhm.
00:24:17
The fact that law enforcement did any work is amazing. And there's so many people that throw
00:24:25
law enforcement under the bus, and I think there's multiple times, rightfully so, so, in this case. And we can get
00:24:31
into that later, but the fact that they're calling friends and family and getting information
00:24:38
pretty quickly about a missing person. That night, weren't they calling that night?
00:24:43
yes. And so, you get a call that night to Adnan, her ex-boyfriend. And what I thought was
00:24:55
interesting and was I've heard that he got a call. I heard he was nervous. I heard all this other
00:25:02
stuff. You can take it however you want, but the way it was presented last night
00:25:06
was that he got this call and he asked the police officer, would there be a report filed?
00:25:16
Mhm. And I thought that was very suspicious. A report filed of her missing or a report filed regarding their phone call?
00:25:24
Uh this not clear. Okay. Uh so I'm assuming that it's is there going to be a report on the
00:25:30
missing person case or the phone call. Either or. I thought it was just a question that is
00:25:38
not you want to ask. That's not something you'd ask. Cop calls you, missing person, you know them, you
00:25:45
answer the questions, you hang up the phone. Mhm. You don't sit there and go, is this
00:25:49
going to be reported? And he states that well, he asked that because he knew she would get in trouble. Okay.
00:25:59
Let's just think about this logically for a second. Your family calls because you're missing.
00:26:05
You think they give a [ __ ] about they're going to be there's going to be a police
00:26:09
report? Mhm. You know what I mean? Like it's one of those comments that Cuz they're the ones that reported her
00:26:15
missing. Right, but it's one of those comments when you go, hey, she came from a strict
00:26:19
family. She wasn't allowed to date certain people. She wasn't allowed to have boyfriend. She wasn't You know what
00:26:23
I mean? She didn't like for people to come over to her house because her home life was strange.
00:26:28
Okay, I get that. But she was supposed to pick up her nephew or niece or whatever it was.
00:26:34
Mhm. And she didn't do it. So then they called and they started calling friends and family and they were worried about
00:26:40
her. So this idea, it just goes by like it's nothing to say, hey, is this going to be filed?
00:26:49
And they just And again, his explanation makes sense for a second until you actually think
00:26:57
about it a little bit more. And then you go, that doesn't make any sense at all. So, it's almost like
00:27:02
coming up with an answer for something you better you would be better off just not even talking about.
00:27:10
Right. It's almost a bad answer to to explain away something that might point towards
00:27:19
your guilt. Yeah. And the other thing that I thought was odd too was when they were talking about
00:27:28
um one of her friends was stating that well, the French teacher, the French teacher talked about how she created a
00:27:39
list of questions and she gave them to somebody to write in their their daily planner.
00:27:46
Uh like their daily agenda. I can't remember what those things are called. Uh but I know
00:27:52
my school had them. Mhm. And Adnan didn't have his daily planner, so he couldn't You have to have your daily
00:27:59
planner to have them sign you out to go to the bathroom. Mhm. So, somehow he doesn't have his daily planner. He
00:28:08
gets this girl's daily planner that just happens to have these questions that the cops basically asked
00:28:15
the French teacher to come up with some questions to ask her friends and family.
00:28:19
Mhm. Because she was a younger teacher and she was closer to them. So, he somehow gets that because he didn't have
00:28:25
his so he can use the restroom. And then he's questioned the French teacher like,
00:28:29
why are you coming up with these questions? Now, I understand that you're 18 at the
00:28:36
time, but it's a missing person case. Um and I can't remember if it's just a missing person case at the time she's
00:28:45
coming up with these questions. I'm assuming it is. But, you know, the fact that he confronts her and says, "Hey,
00:28:50
look, don't do that." And then the explanation is well, I don't want my parents to find
00:28:57
out. You know. That's strange to me. I agree that's strange because I mean, what what
00:29:04
How are they going to find out that they're asking questions around school? And if this girl that that is somebody
00:29:10
that you dated and you've getting you've gotten in trouble before, they know about her, right? On some level.
00:29:17
They might not want you to be dating her, but they know about her on some level. And they the cops have been to
00:29:22
your house. The cops have questioned you. You know, with your father around. Mhm.
00:29:29
They know. You had to say that you were in a relationship with her in front of your parents. They know
00:29:36
about what's going on. This, you know, It's Yeah, it seems to me even if your parents like are super
00:29:42
rough on you or even if you're even if he was afraid of them it seems to me like the cat was already out of the bag
00:29:49
at that point, right? That it's kind of like what shouldn't your wouldn't you be
00:29:54
more concerned about this person being missing? And and if you do have to answer questions to mom and dad, it it's
00:30:02
it's look, the police are going to investigate this. This is a She's missing and yes, we we were friends or
00:30:09
we dated or however he wants to explain it to them. Right. Even if he needs to downplay it
00:30:16
that's when you have to tell mom and dad, whatever relationship we had before is not going on now. She's a friend of
00:30:22
mine. They have to investigate this. Don't don't get on to me. You know, because
00:30:27
and we talk about this, too, you know, regarding missing persons or or murder victims.
00:30:34
There's other victims that don't always make the headlines in these stories and that is the the victim's family and
00:30:41
friends. And you know, when when somebody goes missing or when somebody is murdered, it
00:30:47
hurts a lot of people. And if Adnan was completely innocent in this, I'm sure it hurt him in some way. Well,
00:30:56
And he and you might have to tell in jail for 20 years. not just No, but I mean emotionally at
00:31:02
the time before he was, you know, arrested and and later tried for this. Right, right. You know, and sometimes
00:31:10
sometimes you have to stand up for yourself and even maybe if you're afraid of mom and dad, you have to say, "Look,
00:31:14
I I'm I'm I hope they find her, one, and two, this is a sensitive issue for me. I'm
00:31:21
hurting right now." And uh but but you know, it's it's it's weird and kind of back to what you
00:31:30
were saying earlier regarding the asking if there will be a report, a police report filed regarding uh her her
00:31:37
disappearance. You also have to wonder, is that on some level does that show a certain
00:31:44
level of innocence on his part? Like you kind of want a better explanation from him, what he means, what his full
00:31:51
concern. Give us your full concern about why would there be a report? Could Could he have just been an
00:31:58
18-year-old naive boy Mhm. who thought that a a police report filed with her name on it, with her being missing,
00:32:08
let's say that that he thought somewhere along the line that she took off for whatever reason. Right, or she was
00:32:15
with her new boyfriend. Right. Did in his in his naivete did he at some point think this could hurt her
00:32:25
uh college career or could hurt her on some other level? You know what I mean? Was Was it truly being a friend and
00:32:33
being worried about not that that just missing, but if she did walk away, or if she did go off with somebody, or is just
00:32:40
not where she's supposed to be for a while. Right. Is he Is he worried about what
00:32:46
what consequence this will have for her once she surfaces? Right, but that's that's one
00:32:52
time. Right. And if it just happens one time, naivete, right? But when you're then
00:32:59
going to after the French teacher to say, "Hey, why are you asking questions about this?" Mhm.
00:33:06
And then when they find Hae Min's body, which I'm guessing that the clips that we saw of them
00:33:16
finding her body in the shallow grave, which has always been something where it's like you visualize, but you have no
00:33:23
clue. This is a grave. Mhm. This is not you know, that they laid her down and put you know, put a couple leaves over
00:33:33
her. So, but the other interesting thing is when they find her and they tell Adnan about
00:33:41
this, and they kind of say how they like there was a pin drop, and then he starts like
00:33:46
panicking and saying, you know, "I got to call the cops, and it's the wrong person."
00:33:52
Again, on some level, I think that's evidence on some level of somebody putting themselves
00:34:01
into the investigation. And I don't think that favors him. You know, I don't think that puts
00:34:09
Adnan in a favorable light. Mhm. And now I I have I'm I am hearing the crowd scream, you know, "He's innocent."
00:34:18
He's Well, he might be, but I mean, we're we're going to go through some different
00:34:22
uh Right. What I'm pointing out is those are the three things that I thought were fishy.
00:34:29
Like as far as like it just kind of stuck out stuck out as a sore thumb. Where it was like, wait, what the what?
00:34:36
He asked? Well, the other thing There's going to be a report on this. But again, I I do like your viewpoint on
00:34:43
the idea that it could just be as simple as well, she's supposed to go with Don.
00:34:48
Right. And this whole thing where the guys that think he's guilty the the men and women that think he's
00:34:57
guilty, the fact that he can't remember certain things. Um people throw that up as like a sign of
00:35:04
guilt. And I just argue again, she was missing for 3 weeks. Mhm. And when he's really questioned about some of this
00:35:11
stuff hardcore, he has to remember 3 weeks ago? Mhm. And as far as like my school routine, like if you
00:35:19
would have asked me on a Thursday, what did I do on a Thursday in 1999 on May or not May, let's say uh
00:35:29
uh March the 3rd uh Thursday of March 1999 I could guess that I was Now, I mean, obviously this is 20 years
00:35:40
later, but even three if it was 3 weeks ago, I could guess that I was at orchestra rehearsal because that's what
00:35:47
we had on Thursdays. Mhm. I It's just a guess. And so I think the fact that people bring that
00:35:58
up as a sign of his guilt is just nonsense cuz I don't think it's a I don't think it's a evidence of anything.
00:36:06
Uh other than he just doesn't remember probably cuz a lot of the days were the same.
00:36:12
So, the the strange thing though becomes that he's not that close to this Jay character, but he lets him borrow a car.
00:36:20
Uh I I kind of I have issue with that, but I don't want to go into like a million points of the case. I mean, kind
00:36:26
of want to focus on what was in the documentary. Mhm. But, I mean, they clearly point out that
00:36:32
there was possibly a eyewitness. I have a couple issues with this eyewitness, though.
00:36:38
Okay. Because it's not it's not clear at all. And if somebody says it's clear, go back and watch the
00:36:44
documentary. I went back and watched this part multiple times. towards the end Y- of the documentary?
00:36:51
Yeah, cuz I feel like I don't I don't I don't know this part. they're going to go into it more. So, I
00:36:56
But, I end up just looking up um I think her name is Aisha or something. Um and she has
00:37:05
or Asia. Is it Asia? Um Anyways, there was a girl that kind of knew Adnan that saw him in the library. That would
00:37:13
give him an alibi. So, and this is kind of what they were trying to get a new trial for. She wrote
00:37:21
multiple notes. She contacted multiple people to say, "Hey, I saw this guy. I know for a fact I saw him the day that
00:37:28
Hae Min went missing. And I know that I saw him around 2:15, 2:30 because my boyfriend was late. Mhm.
00:37:36
So, here's where the story doesn't make any sense. They think that she died in between,
00:37:42
let's say, like 2:30 and 3:30. Mhm. H- Hae Min Lee died between 2:30 and 3:30. Mhm. She thinks that she saw
00:37:50
Adnan in the public library from school. So, School library, but I get confused. I think maybe the public
00:37:58
library was right next to the school. I think that's the situation. of people called it I think the school
00:38:04
library. Mhm. It was like right across the street. Yeah. So, she's there. Here's where it doesn't make any sense,
00:38:11
though. She claims that she talked to him like He didn't know her that well. She didn't
00:38:16
know him, but he's I was one of these kids in high school. I talked to everybody. So, if I saw
00:38:22
somebody sitting by themselves at the library, I might sit down and just be like, "Hey, what's up? How you doing?"
00:38:26
Mhm. And we're also talking at a guy to a girl relationship. So, he sees, you know, a pretty girl sitting down in
00:38:35
the library by herself, and he sits down and talks to her for a minute. Mhm. That's
00:38:39
very likely. She claims it's around because school got out at a certain time. So, it would have been between like
00:38:47
cuz school got out around 2:00 something that they would have talked between like 2:15
00:38:54
and 2:30. Mhm. And she knows this because her boyfriend was supposed to pick her up. But, she
00:38:59
keeps on talking about that her boyfriend was like 2 hours late. So, it's like that's the confusing thing
00:39:05
to me. It's like, what time did she get out of school because some seniors don't have to go to school
00:39:10
all day. Mhm. So, did she get out at 12:00 and she had to wait a couple hours for her boyfriend to pick her up? That
00:39:17
part's very confusing cuz she keeps on saying, "I know it was this time because I was sitting there for 2 hours."
00:39:24
Right. Well, if you got out of school at 2:15, you wouldn't have been sitting there for
00:39:28
2 hours. You see what I'm saying? Well, yeah, depending on on what the situation
00:39:34
is. Right. So, that that whole thing is confusing, but again, just that evidence alone, the guy
00:39:41
deserves a trial because if that's not brought up in the first trial because that's his alibi. Mhm. If that's not
00:39:47
brought up in the first trial, well, the guy deserves a new trial because his his
00:39:51
lawyer didn't, you know, do anything. Um So, yeah, so those were the some of the
00:40:00
things that were kind of jumped out to me. The other thing, too, was they they had
00:40:07
a detective on the case, and he was saying like, "Look, our job is not to get it 100% right."
00:40:13
And and I agree with him. Mhm. The detective's job is not to put all the pieces of the puzzle together.
00:40:21
What he claims, and I think that's probably pretty accurate, their job is to get 51% of the way there.
00:40:29
And then and then it's the the court and the trial that needs to get it 100% correct. Well,
00:40:40
so so here's the way that it typically goes down is that the detectives are going to they're supposed to follow the
00:40:47
evidence to lead them to what they think happened. And once they get there, they're to collect as much of that
00:40:55
evidence and then present it to the prosecutor and say, "Look, this is what we think happened and here's the
00:41:00
evidence to suggest that that that is correct and this is your perpetrator. Now we need to we need an arrest warrant
00:41:08
because you need to back us up and say yes, I think these guys and girls have enough
00:41:14
evidence and information on this person that they are the likely perpetrator." Right.
00:41:19
And then they go out and arrest the the individual and then now we we turn it over to the prosecutor. It's the
00:41:26
prosecutor's job to then build a case against this individual and and review the evidence, review the
00:41:34
information, and determine if they want to in fact take it to trial. Now, the interesting thing here is
00:41:43
I was looking into some cases in the past few weeks and one thing and and this was
00:41:52
big time in regards to the JonBenét Ramsey case was the the detectives were running up against some problems.
00:42:03
They had a lot of people and a lot of groups that didn't want to talk to the detectives including the
00:42:10
Ramseys themselves. And what what the detectives kept saying was, "Look, we we followed the evidence
00:42:17
to where we think it it should bring us. Now, we keep trying to hand this over to
00:42:22
the prosecutor because the prosecutor can then say, 'All right, the detectives have run into some issues where people
00:42:30
are are closed-lipped. They're not talking.' The prosecutor can um organize a grand jury.
00:42:39
And the grand jury can then they have powers that the detectives don't have. And what that is is a grand And there's
00:42:46
not always a grand jury for every every case out there. But a prosecutor can put
00:42:51
one together, and then what happens is if you if we think you know something or want to interview you regarding this
00:42:59
particular case, we call you in front of the grand jury. And if you won't talk to
00:43:04
them, now we can take action against you for not talking. Where you can choose to
00:43:09
not talk to detectives. Right. And so, he the detective that states that's 100% correct. Their job is to just
00:43:19
is to follow the evidence. And they think they got their their guy or their perpetrator or offender, whatever you
00:43:25
want to call them, and they give it to the prosecutor. And if the prosecutor can roll with it from there, they can.
00:43:32
Right, but the problem in this case is they didn't do certain things that they should have.
00:43:38
I mean, they basically go, "All right, let's question this guy." Of course, that's that's one of the things you need
00:43:44
to do. Because but in this case, it's interesting because we have two people that she could have been with.
00:43:50
Some of her friends say that that Adnan was going to ask her for a ride. So, that would put Hae Min Lee with Adnan.
00:43:58
If that ride took place. The other person that she told all of her friends she was going to be with is
00:44:06
her new boyfriend, Don. Right. So, those are your two people that you as far as closeness to her. Now, That's
00:44:14
where you start, yeah. we know with the autopsy that it's strangulation, so let's just assume
00:44:20
uh for this argument's sake that and we know as far as strangulation goes, it normally comes from somebody
00:44:26
that is close to her. So, we got two individuals, one that used to date her and one that is dating
00:44:31
her that she's supposed to be with. And if the cops are saying that she died basically within an hour of being out of
00:44:41
school, that's not giving much time. Um so, did Adnan get a ride with her? Again, they didn't check.
00:44:52
I'm sure there was even surveillance footage that they probably could have found that they didn't check.
00:44:58
But, Adnan says, "Well, I don't know where I was at." So, I think what happened with
00:45:03
detectives is they go, "Well, he he doesn't know where he's at. It's our not our job to figure out his alibi." Mhm.
00:45:11
Which I which I'd argue it is your job because this is a 18-year-old kid that doesn't really know where he's supposed
00:45:19
to be at. Okay, let's figure out did he get a ride with her? If he didn't get a ride with her, then where was he? Well,
00:45:26
he was at the library then at some point he was at track practice. So, then you go interview the the the
00:45:33
track teacher. Now, when they were doing that, you know, basically the teacher says, "Look, I
00:45:43
don't keep attendance record of people at the track practice. But, we it would be very unusual for him not to
00:45:54
be there. And he would have remembered that and he doesn't remember him not being there.
00:46:01
Mhm. So, is it a solid 100% alibi? No. But, that's a lot different of a story than we don't know
00:46:12
I don't know exactly where I was at. And I mean, this case is such a perfect storm because one, you have
00:46:19
teenagers involved, but then you have this ice storm that hits when she goes missing.
00:46:25
So, then you got kids not in school, kids without power at a time that people aren't as
00:46:35
in connection with each other. And then you And then the fact that she's missing for 3 weeks before they
00:46:42
find her body. And then when you start questioning backwards, you're going to get a lot of I don't know. I don't
00:46:49
remember. So, I think they So, then they have to interview Don. Well, Don is strange.
00:46:59
And his wording is strange. And the way he talks in general is strange. And he's 22 years old and he's dating a
00:47:10
17-year-old. It's a little strange. You know what I mean? Um her friends all have met Adnan because they went to
00:47:21
school with him. They all like Adnan. Most of her friends never met this guy. Well, he was supposed to be at work.
00:47:28
Well, she was supposed to meet him. So, where's the Where's the [ __ ] logical sense in that?
00:47:36
She's supposed to meet this guy. She tells everybody she's supposed to meet this guy.
00:47:42
I'm supposed to meet my boyfriend after school. I'm going to go hang out with my
00:47:44
boyfriend. I'm so excited. Uh we didn't hang out. We don't know. We're We're assuming they didn't ha-
00:47:52
hang out. But, we have no call log of him to her uh of of him saying he can't hang out,
00:47:59
but then he's at work. Well, the problem with the work alibi is his mother's a manager.
00:48:06
So, therefore, then there's all this specu- Now, they didn't go into this in the documentary, but he was working at a
00:48:12
location that he normally wouldn't work at, never worked at before. And normally when you put your time
00:48:19
sheet in, your time sheet would go through a computer. But for some reason, the only time in
00:48:25
however many years he worked there was a time code handwritten and then signed. Now,
00:48:35
I think the location he was at was actually like his mom's girlfriend or something was the manager. Either way,
00:48:42
your mom is a manager of the store you work in, and that's your alibi. Well, that's not an alibi,
00:48:51
because that's a family member giving you an alibi, to me. But it's a better one than Adnan can provide.
00:48:59
Uh I I would say no. And the reason why is cuz we at least have a coach that has no relationship,
00:49:07
no he's not a father, he's not a stepfather, he's nothing. Yeah, but which says I can't 100% say that he was there,
00:49:14
but it would have been odd if he wasn't there. No, I'm not comparing I'm not comparing
00:49:19
the track coach's statement to to this Don's time card. What I'm saying is if I'm remembering the timeline
00:49:28
correctly, wouldn't they believe she had she was dead by the time he would have gone to
00:49:33
track practice? Right. So, the So, to get to have committed the murder, it he could have he could have gone to
00:49:40
both. He could have killed her and then went to track practice. And what I mean is
00:49:46
being able to one, tell police, "Hey, this is where I was at during this time on this day and here's something to back
00:49:55
that up. Be it whether you want to believe that that piece of evidence or not. Right. You know, that's for them to
00:50:02
decide if they believe it or not or think it was fixed or altered in any way to to change what actually took place.
00:50:10
When you have another guy that just straight up says, "I don't know where I was. I could have been here. I could
00:50:15
have been there." Um Well That's that Right. You got one guy that's providing no
00:50:20
alibi and another guy that is providing something. Okay. Now whether you But that's when they They're detectives.
00:50:27
That's when they have to deduce what's presented to them and decide which direction do we start to go with
00:50:34
this? Right. Right. Right. But we got we got another thing in play. So, I agree with
00:50:38
you. So, on that one Don wins one. And now we got to start looking at Adnan. But like I said
00:50:46
there's rumors of her supposedly going to give Adnan a ride. Right? And it's not like he was getting
00:50:54
a ride home. It's like a ride around the corner, basically. So there's two people that she could have
00:51:01
been or supposed to hang out with. She's either going to see Adnan or she's going to see Don. Mhm. So like you said,
00:51:09
okay, alibi. Give you that one. Don wins one. But we have multiple friends of hers
00:51:17
that say she could not give Adnan a ride because she had something to do. She had
00:51:25
somebody to meet. Mhm. And so this is after I mean, these are her friends. So if she if they knew, I mean, cuz there's
00:51:37
people on record saying no, she basically told Adnan that she couldn't give him a
00:51:43
ride. So, if that's true and he didn't get into her car, she didn't give him a ride,
00:51:51
then where's she going to go? Who's she going to go meet? She's going to go meet Don.
00:51:57
So, win for Adnan. And like I said, I don't know how I don't know exactly how that played out,
00:52:04
but what I'm saying is as a detective and you go, "Okay, Hae Min Lee, who's where was she going after school?"
00:52:11
Well, when all of her friends go, she was supposed to meet her boyfriend. Well, that's the first
00:52:18
rabbit hole you go down. And I really think what happened is they they met. But wasn't wasn't Don's
00:52:27
hit the shift that he worked that day, according to what we've been told on Serial, wasn't that an unscheduled
00:52:33
shift? Yeah. Right. So, so not necessarily. It doesn't have to be one or the other. There's a chance that
00:52:40
it could have been Adnan could have been somewhere else, didn't get a ride with her. Right. She's supposed to meet Don,
00:52:47
but now he's working and and working at a different location. Right, but you're supposed to meet up with your boyfriend
00:52:53
and he never calls, you never makes any contact with you to let you know he has to work that
00:53:00
You know what I mean? Doesn't mean that it didn't happen. No, I agree. and and I'm I I'm kind of representing
00:53:06
her. She's She's missing. He doesn't call her. No, I know, but that's a whole different
00:53:11
avenue. We're talking about just one thing right now. Where Where was she supposed to be? Mhm. And what I'm
00:53:17
getting at is that it doesn't it being 1999, no she doesn't have a cell phone. What's his means of letting her know
00:53:25
that that hey, I got to work this shift. You know, it's Well, she has a pager. So,
00:53:32
we know that much. So, but Yeah, so okay, maybe there's no communication, but that also doesn't
00:53:42
eliminate the possibility, like you said, it doesn't have to be one or the other.
00:53:47
I'm glad you brought that up cuz I was I was kind of missing that. Is Okay, Don goes and and works
00:53:54
LensCrafters. Well, I mean cuz when Serial ends, they present the idea that maybe there's a serial killer that
00:54:02
killed Hae Min Lee. And right, or just yeah. You know, there there could be a chance I mean if we
00:54:08
really want to dive into all the possibilities at some point, there could be a chance that she
00:54:14
maybe Don never communicated with her and she was going to where she thought she was going to go and waited around
00:54:20
for him and the and a very bad person crossed paths with her at some point. Right.
00:54:27
Yeah, it's You know what's what's a real [ __ ] nugget in this whole case? Mhm. Is you you
00:54:36
hit the nail on the head here when you said it was it's kind of the perfect storm. If you were going to put a wrong
00:54:43
the wrong guy in prison, this is the type of case where it could very likely happen. And I think here
00:54:52
if if she let's say she was killed sometime that day, right? Mhm. If if her if she would have been found
00:55:01
that night or sometime the next day, I think they would have had a whole different investigation to do because
00:55:10
they would have they would have had more to go off of of possible time of death.
00:55:16
And what I mean by that is there's a lot of moving parts and pieces when you factor in everybody's stories
00:55:22
about what people were doing that day and where everybody was going. All the players involved, Don, Adnan, Jay, Hae
00:55:29
Min Lee, everybody, you know, and what I'm getting at here is Well, and also the just But if if she
00:55:36
would have been found the next day and they could have said and they would have said, "Oh, we actually believe that the
00:55:42
that the death occurred between 6:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. last night." Right. Well, then him being at track practice,
00:55:50
I don't know what time the track practice was. I'm just using I'm just using an example. Don't don't
00:55:55
reference this as an exact timeline. But, there's a chance that that track practice could have been more of an
00:56:01
alibi because as we pointed out, there's a chance he could have killed her and then also went to track. Well, if they
00:56:07
had a better time of death, which they don't have and they won't they will never have, there's a chance that that
00:56:13
time of death may have occurred or believed to have occurred while he was at track practice.
00:56:18
Well, they believe within an hour, but I also think that a lot of the cops' beliefs and detectives' beliefs in this
00:56:24
case is just not true and they don't have evidence to back that up. Well, no, they have no way of no I mean,
00:56:29
when you find someone 3 weeks later, they're going to have no way of really determining her time of death. They
00:56:36
could probably narrow it down to within a couple days, but But, what's interesting
00:56:44
here is if they're coming up with a time of death because they're and we've talked about this in cases we've
00:56:51
covered. When you find somebody so much later, the only way you can come up with
00:56:56
the time of death is you go, "Okay, well, when is the first time that we know that the victim was not where they
00:57:03
were supposed to be?" Right. And as and when you hear about her track record, when you hear that Was it Was it
00:57:10
her cousin or the or niece niece or something that she would pick up? Cousin maybe, yeah. Okay, so she would
00:57:16
pick somebody up from from daycare or from some school or some kind of situation. I don't remember what it was.
00:57:22
her brother states, which this is where you have to understand how important it was. It wasn't like
00:57:28
something like, you know, sometimes my sister calls me and I pick up my niece or nephew from school.
00:57:33
I don't do that on a regular. That's not my job, right? What her brother states is we knew
00:57:40
something was up when she didn't pick up her niece or Right. And that's what I mean.
00:57:44
Because it was her job. Her track record was also that she always did it. It wasn't like something
00:57:49
that was a constant all you let us down again. You failed to pick this person up. No, she always did it and so that's
00:57:57
all the police have to go off of when they're going okay, that's when we believe that she was already dead or the
00:58:04
murder occurred you know, they're going to say we believe she was already dead or the
00:58:08
murder occurred around that time because this is where we can what we believe definitively say she was
00:58:16
not where she was supposed to be. Now, what I'm getting at is if she would have been found the next day
00:58:22
there's also there's also a chance that you go if if they knew the hours of death or if they knew the window.
00:58:31
There's there's a chance that that she could have been detained for some reason. Well, and
00:58:37
And and unable to pick that person up and was actually alive for an hour or two or three or four or five after that
00:58:44
time when she was supposed to pick that individual up. Well, let me look up her name cuz I want
00:58:50
to make sure I get this right. And uh Uh ta ta ta ta ta ta ta with this ta ta So,
00:59:08
um but this I I this alibi witness that they kind of failed to bring up in the first
00:59:18
trial. The problem with the problem with people that think he's innocent they come up with a Well, there was a
00:59:28
there was eyewitness that they never brought up, which would have gave him an alibi for
00:59:34
the time right after school. Which I do think is important because we do know that she did not get to where
00:59:42
she was supposed to be going. But who was she with? And if you rule the fact out that
00:59:49
that she was not with Adnan because he was in the library right after school, then that really gives him like a very
00:59:58
tiny window. Right. And he would have had to like strangle her her in the parking lot of the
01:00:03
school, and she would have had to sit there, and nobody would have saw him do it.
01:00:09
You know what I mean? Mhm. So, I do think the alibi is important, but at the same time it's like we also
01:00:15
don't know when the death occurred. So, we don't know if that even means anything, you know, because it could
01:00:21
have been Well, we saw him after school, but we didn't see him at track practice, or in between track
01:00:28
practice and when he went to um the mosque that that nobody knows where he's at.
01:00:35
So, it's very difficult, but also I think the interesting thing with with Don's alibi,
01:00:44
it's also you question by the police multiple times again, you're not calling your girlfriend, you're not paging her,
01:00:52
you're not doing anything to see where she's at. You just waiting around for the cops to
01:00:58
ask you questions. It's very strange. And I I almost think by him knowing Don knowing what they're asking him,
01:01:09
gives him Like I said, it's 3 weeks later, they find the body, and when they go back to question him,
01:01:18
now he has an alibi, and he it's this is handwritten note. Mhm. And even if you come up with the
01:01:25
alibi early, you just know that you have to get to the note by then. So, this documentary is really good. I'm
01:01:32
looking forward to the next three parts, and I'm guessing it's coming out each Sunday.
01:01:38
Um but, you know, it was released on Friday that he will not be getting a new trial
01:01:44
anytime soon, anyways, and the conviction stands. So, for a while he was not convicted of this crime.
01:01:53
Now, it goes back to it stands, and the what I was reading about this is uh I mean, we might not have any movement
01:02:00
on this case unless something really blows something wide open, like a confession or something. Mhm.
01:02:07
Uh any movement in this case for a possible 3 to 4 years. And I I think that's a
01:02:14
pretty sad when there's a lot of holes in this uh trial and this case. Mhm. Now, and you know what? Who knows? I
01:02:23
mean, it's For For those that believe that Adnan was wrongfully convicted. Um I mean, there's always hope with the
01:02:34
with these things. The um We When we talked You know we what we haven't done in a long time is
01:02:42
you know, must-watch true crime shows or documentaries. We We did that once or twice.
01:02:48
Um the one that we referenced on there that was on our list, The Thin Blue Line.
01:02:56
I mean, this was from back in It's a case from '76, 1976, and the the the documentary, The Thin Blue Line,
01:03:06
came out in 1988. And I believe this is the first one or one of the first ones where this documentary
01:03:17
ended up changing you know, who was sitting behind bars. Yeah. Um so And we've seen that I mean as far as
01:03:25
like Or at least get some movement. Yeah. Right. With the Steven Avery case, I mean because of the first documentary
01:03:31
you get Zellner involved. And then she becomes a part of the second documentary and now
01:03:37
um it looks like he'll get a new trial. Mhm. You know, and so we've seen that before.
01:03:42
But in this case, like I said it was it timing by the state knowing that the HBO
01:03:48
docu-series is starting on Sunday that they released that information. I believe it was on the
01:03:54
Friday. Mhm. Um did they decide to come out with a verdict because you know that a public
01:04:00
opinion is going to be swayed? And like I said, I don't know what Rabia's involvement with HBO um
01:04:07
but saying that, I don't think I after watching it cuz I I was Here's what I wondered. Like with
01:04:19
with Making a Murderer, they can claim all they want that they didn't go in with the agenda.
01:04:25
But after they learned what they learned, when they made the film and they edited the film, there was a
01:04:30
agenda. Mhm. So but this one, I can't tell what the agenda is. Well, they they might not
01:04:38
have one and hopefully they don't. They might just be, you know, documenting Cuz like I said, a couple of the things
01:04:45
that stuck out to me as odd or doesn't put Adnan in a favorable light like came from the you know, straight
01:04:54
from the documentary. And it's stuff that I never heard before uh or put that way. So, I do think on
01:05:01
some level I mean, I really think like I said, Serial is just the tip of the iceberg. But I I really think
01:05:10
we're going to learn a lot more from this four-part series.