00:00:07
by an unspeakable act. The apocalypse would occur soon. More white supremacist groups, more
00:00:14
anti-government groups. David Caresh, Ruby Ridge siege, Timothy McVey, more than 80 people dead. Bombed
00:00:25
a federal building in Oklahoma City. Eight by an unspeakable act. There is so little hope left.
00:00:35
A good soldier typically refers to someone who is disciplined, obedient, and dedicated to their duty, willing to
00:00:43
endure hardship. A good soldier sacrifices for the greater good, and fights bravely for
00:00:52
a cause they believe in. A good soldier follows orders without hesitation and maintains discipline even in challenging
00:01:03
situations. They are willing to face danger and put themselves in harm's way for God, their country, and their
00:01:11
cause. They are able to work effectively as part of a team and are loyal to their
00:01:17
unit and fellow soldiers. They possess the physical and mental fortitude to withstand the rigors of
00:01:25
military service. A good soldier can be counted on to perform their duties effectively and
00:01:33
efficiently. On the morning of Wednesday, April 19th, 1995, an ex Army soldier and security
00:01:43
guard named Timothy McVey parked a rented rider truck in front of the Alfred P. Mura Federal Building in
00:01:52
downtown Oklahoma City. He was about to commit mass murder. This is True Crime Garage.
00:02:07
[Music] In May of 1988, a young man named Timothy James McVey from Lockport, New
00:02:21
York, enlisted in the United States Army. Timothy McVey was 20 years old. He enlisted because his life was well was
00:02:30
kind of going nowhere and he wanted some direction. After graduating high school,
00:02:36
McVey was working at local jobs, but nothing that was really moving him and he felt like he was getting nowhere
00:02:44
fast. So, he needed a career or an education or both. The military was good for his father and Timothy was smart,
00:02:52
skilled with guns and so this was a natural fit for McVey. He attended basic training and advanced training at the US
00:03:01
Army Infantry School at Fort Benning, which is located in the state of Georgia. While in the military, McVey
00:03:08
used much of his spare time to read about firearms and explosives. McVey was reprimanded by the military for wearing
00:03:16
a white power t-shirt during his time serving in the military. He would later say that this was in retaliation to some
00:03:24
of the African-American soldiers who wore black power t-shirts. During McVeyy's time at Fort Benning, he met
00:03:31
fellow soldier Terry Nichols, who was his platoon guide. The two became fast friends. They shared similar backgrounds
00:03:39
and both were into gun collecting and survivalism. Terry Lynn Nichols was considerably older than McVey, about 13
00:03:47
years older. And from my understanding here, Captain Terry Nichols, prior to his time in the army, he simply enlists
00:03:54
because of being bored at home. He was a stay-at-home father to his own child plus two stepids when life wasn't really
00:04:03
doing anything for him. Much like McVey, he decided to sign up for the US Army as
00:04:10
well, even though he was a little older than traditional people who enlist. The two were later stationed together again,
00:04:19
this time at Fort Riley, which is in Junction City, Kansas. This is where the two of them became friends with another
00:04:25
man. His name is Michael Fortier. McVey was a top scoring gunner with the M242mm cannon on Bradley Fighting
00:04:34
Vehicles, which is used by the First Infantry Division, and was quickly promoted to sergeant. So, he's excelling
00:04:41
quickly during his time in the army. It's reported that McVey was building and stashing his own private gun
00:04:48
collection. This is something that was not allowed by the army. Now, it's unclear if the army was aware of this
00:04:55
activity or not. After being promoted, McVey had a bad reputation for assigning undesirable work to the black servicemen
00:05:04
and regularly using racial slurs in the company of other soldiers. This included
00:05:10
black soldiers. In fact, years later, several of the men who served with McVey would label him a
00:05:18
loner/racist. In the summer of 1990, like many other servicemen and women, McVey was sent overseas for deployment
00:05:26
on Operation Desert Storm, the US war against Iraq. There, McVey did see a good deal of action. What lasting
00:05:34
effects this had on him are difficult to say, but the Army liked McVeyy's work. He received several service awards,
00:05:45
including the Bronze Star Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Southwest Asia Service Medal, Army
00:05:52
Service Ribbon, and the Kuwait Liberation Medal. During this time here, Captain, it seems like when we say he
00:05:59
saw a good deal of action, he was forced to be involved in some very violent action. And without getting into the
00:06:09
details of the Iraq war, Desert Storm, he probably was responsible for many casualties on the on the opposing side.
00:06:19
There are some rumors, some pretty horrific rumors that he may have executed prisoners, which is of course
00:06:27
war crimes. But again, these are just rumors. These there's nothing over the years to say that this is fact. And no
00:06:37
other soldier or officer that he answered to would ever state that this is fact. It's hard to know what his
00:06:44
military experience did to him, but we do have evidence that he had some interesting and odd thoughts before he
00:06:52
actually went to war. And he he seemed to be uh an individual that didn't have much of a direction, maybe a little
00:07:00
aggressive, and was willing to piss people off by telling people his his views and opinions on life that might
00:07:09
not line up with most people. Yes, he was regularly offering up unsolicited opinions on social matters and that made
00:07:19
him you could look at it as sever several different ways that made him either an outcast or he's choosing to be
00:07:27
a loner type that he doesn't want to mingle with everybody. Some people decide, I'm going to put my worst foot
00:07:35
forward. So therefore, you just don't like me and so I don't have to show you the real me. So then you can then judge
00:07:43
that. But the military is a tough situation anyways because you go, well, how can this guy with these racist
00:07:50
beliefs and these racist actions actually thrive in in this system? But you have to remember it's a system that
00:08:00
not everybody's willing to sign up for. So sometimes the military has to kind of
00:08:06
look the other way on some of these bad flaws or bad character flaws. Many many people and thank you to everyone out
00:08:13
there who has done so over the years and will do so in the future. But many people sign up for all the right
00:08:19
reasons, God and country to find themselves and find a career for themselves to further their education.
00:08:26
There's a million wonderful reasons to sign up to enlist to serve in any branch of the military. I just worry that McVey
00:08:35
strikes me as one of those types and I know everybody out there has encountered one of these types that you talk to who
00:08:42
are excited to sign up because you know you get to shoot people. They say stuff like that and you're like don't I don't
00:08:49
feel now I don't feel comfortable around you. Not in just this war, but in every
00:08:54
war that we've been a part of, different outfits that go out on these missions, they're all basically
00:09:02
investigated later for either, like you said, killing prisoners, torturing prisoners, killing innocent people, or
00:09:11
even killing children. That's why war is absolutely the worst thing on this planet. the lines of what is right and
00:09:19
what is wrong get blurry real quick quick for men and women that are in combat and facing those who are trying
00:09:26
to to end them. So I mean it's just absolutely even when our country is doing the right thing. I just I mean
00:09:34
it's one of those things where most of the time it's hard to figure out what is the right side. Yes. It never really
00:09:40
feels like there is a a real true winner. I think we all lose when we have are faced with war. Now, after returning
00:09:48
from the Gulf War, as said, he's decorated. He's a decorated war vet by this point. McVey aspired to join the
00:09:56
Green Beret special forces because he excelled during his time in the army and he thought that he would continue. He
00:10:05
enters this 21-day assessment and selection course for the special forces, but he taps out after 2 days. So McVey
00:10:13
decided to leave the army and he was honorably discharged. This in 1991. Now at this time McVey and a lot
00:10:24
of other people were involved in survivalism and McVey was a survivalist. And we we touched on some of this in our
00:10:33
prior episodes regarding this true crime story. But one thing we didn't talk about is where the survivalist movement
00:10:43
and really gained steam was in the 1980s and during the cold war. Well, by this time with the collapse of the Soviet
00:10:54
Union because survivalist that the whole idea of it was built around well, how to
00:11:00
survive, how to protect your family if the Russians were to come over here and invade our country or to start dropping
00:11:09
bombs or nuclear bombs on our country. So, a lot of that idea was built around that threat from the Soviet Union. And
00:11:19
so when when we have the collapse of that, the individuals and the families and communities that had worked so hard
00:11:28
and prepared themselves for such situations, it was really weird because now that they have no enemy, right? They
00:11:36
have no opposition. They have no threat, no fear, right, from from a certain enemy. And so some of those persons and
00:11:44
those beliefs started to morph into this idea. Well, now we have to defend ourselves against our own government.
00:11:50
And this is an idea that McVey and several others that he would encounter in the coming years would share and
00:12:01
express these ideas. Their their fear was that the government would come and take their guns away and and maybe
00:12:09
enslave them or take their money, right? The so the thought became at some point
00:12:14
that we need to a survivalist need to defend ourselves against the US government for our freedoms, our family,
00:12:21
our land, our money and of course the second amendment. Now the second amendment to the United States
00:12:28
Constitution was ratified on December 15th, 1791 along with other with the other
00:12:35
nine amendments that make up our bill of rights. The text of the amendment reads,
00:12:42
"A well- reggulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep
00:12:50
and bear arms shall not be infringed." One year, Captain after McVey left the army, Ruby Ridge happened. Now, the Ruby
00:13:00
Ridge incident, which we covered here extensively, was the 1992 standoff in Boundary County, Idaho, which involved
00:13:09
both the US Marshalss and FBI agents facing off against Randy Weaver, his family, and a friend named Kevin Harris,
00:13:19
resulting in a tragic loss of life, and sparking controversy over federal law enforcement actions. And as our
00:13:26
listeners know, this standoff and gunfight resulted in the deaths of Deputy US Marshal WF Deacon, Samuel
00:13:35
Weaver, who was the 14-year-old son of the family, and Vicky Weaver, the mother and wife who was killed by a bullet to
00:13:42
the head from FBI sniper Lan Haruchi. Lon Haruchi fired his gun from a position over 200 yards north and above
00:13:52
the Weaver cabin. And sadly, Vicky Weaver was killed by this bullet. This Ruby Ridge incident would
00:14:02
inspire not just Timothy McVey, but others. And it would have a profound effect on Tim McVey. And it would really
00:14:13
be the start of, I would say, the continuation of bad behavior. We talked about some of his behavior during his
00:14:20
time in in the army, but this is where we start to see it at at the civilian level, right? So, he starts threat
00:14:28
sending threatening hate mail to Lon Haruchi's home. One of the correspondents that I was able to
00:14:37
review, he says something pretty vague, but it is threatening. You know, he says
00:14:43
something like, "What goes around comes around." And later, McVey would even begin handing out flyers and pamphlets
00:14:53
with Lon Haruchi's address on it. He was hoping that somebody would do something
00:14:58
to Lon Herruchi because so many people had hate for this man. And McVey would later say that at some point he was
00:15:07
considering planning to target Haruchi or a member of Haruchi's family to assassinate. Less than one year later,
00:15:17
David Caresh and the Branch Devidians inside their Mount Carmel Center compound were surrounded by ATF agents.
00:15:24
In 1993, McVey drove to Waco, Texas during the Waco siege to support to show his support for the branch dividians. At
00:15:33
the scene, he distributed proun rights literature and bumper stickers bearing slogans such as, "When guns are
00:15:40
outlawed, I will become an outlaw." The 51-day siege resulted in the deaths of four ATF agents and 82 civilians. And of
00:15:50
course, this enraged McVey, not only enraged McVey, but it gave him another enemy, a new enemy, Janet Reno, and
00:16:00
further to bolster his hate of these different government agencies. Well, it's it's fascinating to me because this
00:16:07
individual didn't have much of a direction. And so he goes into the army to get a direction and then I think he
00:16:14
sees the inner workings or part of the inner workings of our army and the power of our government and maybe even by
00:16:22
being over in this war maybe he can't justify certain things that he's doing. So then he goes to advance his career
00:16:30
but is not able to. So he gets out of the military, still doesn't have much of direction, but he sees the power of our
00:16:38
government and then he sees the wrongdoings of our government and maybe even being involved in some wrongdoings
00:16:45
of our government. And so he starts forming his direction cuz he didn't have a direction, right? And so now he's
00:16:53
forming his direction and he and when you have a government that is not transparent on everything, you know,
00:17:00
going back from the president being sass the president being assassinated to uh wars that civilians don't know if
00:17:08
they're justified or not. Then like I said, his time in the military, it's like it's all leading to this idea of
00:17:16
him having this vendetta against the power that he served. if that makes any sense. Well, and I'm not trying to be a
00:17:24
complete jerk here, but really when you look at McVeyy's timeline, it's almost like a
00:17:30
really long fuse. Now, when that fuse was lit, I don't think it matters because it
00:17:38
stayed lit for a very long time as it walked its way to to I mean him becoming one of the most notorious monsters this
00:17:48
country has ever faced and slash produced. It's so before his time in the the military, he was we already covered
00:17:57
that he's he's familiar with guns. He's a bit of a gun enthusiast, but he he did
00:18:02
have some some jobs. He was a security guard. He worked at a Burger King for a while. He did attend a community
00:18:08
college. It was it was pretty brief. It's one of these positions that when you examine it, it makes no damn sense
00:18:17
to me. when you when you read or interact or or to see these types on TV, these militia types, the nationalists,
00:18:26
the separatists, the the white supremacists, they a lot of them to hear them talk about the US mil military,
00:18:34
they hold that in very high regard, which which anyone should regardless of where you come from, walk of life, it's
00:18:42
about God and country. It's it's very proud thing. It's it's honorable to to serve for your nation and to protect
00:18:50
your fellow man. But but at the same time, the militia types, the survivalists, and a lot of these hate
00:18:58
groups, while they may have respect for the different military branches, they seem to hate the government that those
00:19:07
that military serves, it never really made any much sense to me when all of that is it's like talking out of both
00:19:16
sides of of your mouth, right? It's out of your face. It it makes no damn sense.
00:19:22
Let's go to April of 1993. This is when McVey, he takes off and he goes and lives on a farm in Michigan. This is
00:19:34
with his former army mate, Terry Nichols, who we always already introduced. So, the Nicholls family, and
00:19:42
I believe that it is actually Terry Nichols older brother that has this farm up in Michigan. McVey goes and stays
00:19:50
there for a while. During his time there, McVey and the Nicholls brothers, they are making explosives. These are mostly
00:19:59
like small pipe bombs and and they're using things household chemicals and items, plastic jugs and whatnot to
00:20:07
create explosive devices. Now, not that McVey needed any influence, especially by this time, but the Nicholls brothers,
00:20:16
from what I understand, were quite racist and and a little bit radical as well. In fact, they had hopes
00:20:24
of building a paramilitary training camp on the family farm. McVeyy's anti-government rhetoric became more
00:20:32
radical during this time as well. And he would start frequenting gun shows. And one of the things he was
00:20:41
doing at gun shows was he he had developed this devout hate for the ATF and several other government agencies
00:20:50
that we already had talked about, but he was selling items that were like ATF or
00:20:59
FBI hats that were riddled with bullet holes. His answering machine greeting, one of them included the quote, "Give me
00:21:07
liberty or give me death." And as said, he began experimenting with constructing
00:21:12
pipe bombs and other explosive devices. And in 1994, the US government imposed new firearms restrictions, which McVey
00:21:20
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00:26:17
mother. Thanks for telling your brother. Cheers to the people in the bleachers all the way in the back. And cheers to
00:26:23
the people under the bleachers. Having a good time. No doubt. Well, you did say it's kind of like
00:26:30
talking out of both sides of your your face. But I think the problem here is when you're a part of the army, there's
00:26:37
some, you know, infighting or ribbing to to the navy and the guys in the navy kind of make fun of the guys in the in
00:26:47
the army. But I think it can go beyond that. When if you believe in the mission that you were serving and then you come
00:26:54
back home, now we take that power away from you and now you're seeing these other entities doing things that you
00:27:00
don't agree with and you almost feel slighted because of the effort you put in and and the mission that you tried to
00:27:08
accomplish. Yeah. And look, I'm a huge fan of a good road trip. I think most people like a good road trip. Now, it's
00:27:17
often reported that that Timothy McVey was kind of boopping around the country and on the road for about two years
00:27:28
straight. That that's not a false statement, but we should point out that he he does kind of he he never settles
00:27:36
down during this two-year period. He is moving about going statetoate. But we did mention, you know, he he went and
00:27:43
lived on the Nicholls farm for a little bit. There was a um farm that he lived at for a period of time on in Kansas in
00:27:50
the state of Kansas as well and he would live briefly in the state of Arizona as well. So McVey he hits the
00:27:59
road he's he's frequenting and also working at some of these gun shows throughout the country. And this is
00:28:08
where McVey sold those items that we've already mentioned, plus survival items and copies of the book titled The Turner
00:28:17
Diaries. The Turner Diaries is a 1979 novel by William Luther Pierce, who is the founder and chairman of National
00:28:27
Alliance, an American white nationalist group. And he published this book under a pseudonym, Andrew McDonald. The book
00:28:37
depicts a violent revolution in the United States caused by a group called the organization. The organization's actions
00:28:47
lead to the overthrow of the US government and then a nuclear war and ultimately a race war which leads to the
00:28:56
systematic extermination of non-whites and Jews worldwide. So the white race in this book view
00:29:08
other white people as race traitors as well and they ultimately ha were hanged in a mass execution which was called the
00:29:18
day of the rope. The book while never something that I would want to read has been incredibly influential
00:29:26
destructively so I might add. It's believed that this book inspired numerous hate crimes and acts of
00:29:33
terrorism, including the 1984 assassination of Allen Berg, the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and the 1999
00:29:43
London nail bombings. Meanwhile, in Arkansas, in the state of Arkansas, Richard Wayne Snell, who was convicted
00:29:51
of two murders, one the murder of a state trooper, Officer Bryant, and sentenced to death. While Snell never
00:29:59
denied the accusations of these murders, he nevertheless nevertheless undertook what became a decadel long effort to
00:30:08
overturn these convictions trying to avoid the death penalty. An appeal in one of the cases was heard by the
00:30:17
Arkansas Supreme Court which upheld the conviction and the death sentence. So Richard Snell's petition for a writ
00:30:29
of habius corpus was denied by the district court and that ruling was upheld in 1994. At a final appearance before the
00:30:39
clemency board, Snell showed no remorse and in fact he said he probably would kill state trooper Bryant again if
00:30:48
the same circumstances were to present themselves. Just prior to this, the court proceedings against Randy Weaver
00:30:56
and Kevin Harris from the Ruby Ridge incident concluded. They were acquitted of the charges from the standoff and
00:31:06
federal committees criticized the US Marshalss and the FBI for mishandling the situation. Once again, Timothy McVey
00:31:16
hit the road. he was heading west as he felt more free the further west he went where he came across other
00:31:26
like-minded individuals and families with as he said the exception being the state of California in a lot of the
00:31:33
states going west McVey found a more anti-government sentiment it's said that McVey considered buying
00:31:42
property in Arizona uh Siggman Arizona which he determined which McVey determined to be a quote nuclear free
00:31:51
zone. This goes back to that survivalist, right, mentality that he's he's using to direct most of his life.
00:32:00
But money was a problem for McVey being that he had very little of it. So he didn't buy any property. He went to live
00:32:08
with his old buddy. This is Michael Fortier in Kingman, Arizona. Remember, he knew him from the army as well. And
00:32:16
the two of them during this time became so close that Timothy McVey served as best man at Michael's wedding. Michael
00:32:25
Forier and his wife Lori frequently experimented with drugs, mainly cannabis and
00:32:31
methamphetamine. So they involved with some some meth going on out there. And this Yeah, just just a little bit of
00:32:39
weed and a little bit of meth. Yeah, maybe a little meth on top of the weed. Who knows what they're doing out there,
00:32:48
but because McVey is living with them, he too gets involved in this. And from my understanding, help his
00:32:56
radical ideas. No. And from my understanding too, meth makes people can make people extremely paranoid. And it
00:33:07
it would appear to me, Captain, as as tough and as much as he positions and presents himself to be this person who
00:33:15
is willing to fight the government and willing to fight for what he believes in, I have to believe that some of his
00:33:21
beliefs are stem from some level of paranoia already prior to any type of drug use. Right? He's living out there
00:33:29
with with Lori and Michael Fortier. There's some drug activity going on in the household. And I think what they're
00:33:38
doing is a a good amount of drugs are going on before McVey even got there. And eventually McVey joins them in this
00:33:45
activity. But it's said that he was never as interested in drugs as the couple was. In fact, one of the reasons
00:33:54
that he parted ways with Michael was that McVey grew tired of Michael's drug habits. At some
00:34:04
point in late 1994, we learn, we would later learn that McVey did discuss a severe act of terrorism with Michael
00:34:16
Forier and with his wife as well. In fact, he tried to recruit Michael. Lori says that McVey told her about plans to
00:34:27
blow up a federal building. Now, what's uncertain here, Captain, is did he ever name the building? And according
00:34:39
to Lori statements, he he came quite close to naming the building, but never actually did. Keep in mind, they're
00:34:46
living in Arizona at this time. So, what familiarity, if any, with Oklahoma or Oklahoma City did she have is really
00:34:56
hard to say. But what I've reviewed states that that Lori was told, this is her words, that McVey was going to, his
00:35:06
ultimate plan, and he was recruiting others to help him execute this plan was to build a bomb in a vehicle and place
00:35:16
that vehicle near a large building. And I believe he did reference the city of Oklahoma. the building. He described it
00:35:25
as a building that had a glass front. And he told her that this building would he picked this building
00:35:33
because of the glass front and because that it was what he called an easy target. Well, and one of your favorite
00:35:41
parts in the true crime stories is when there's letters. Yes. And a lot of these
00:35:47
types, especially like a McVey type, they like to they like to talk a lot. They like to communicate a lot. They
00:35:53
like to threaten people. So while all this is going on, McVey is also mailing some letters that would be of interest.
00:36:03
So he he mailed two letters to the ATF. The first he titled constitutional defenders. The second letter he titled
00:36:11
it ATF Reed in which he denounced government officials as fascist tyrants and stormtroopers and warned ATF all you
00:36:21
tyrannical [ __ ] will swing in the wind one day for your treasonous actions against the Constitution of the
00:36:29
United States. Yeah. I mean he's planning on hanging them. And but I'm glad that you bring up that
00:36:35
point because anybody that studies history whether you're and I I don't want to get into a gun
00:36:43
debate, but one of the biggest arguments or the one of the reasons why we have uh the right to bear arms is not so much
00:36:54
about hunting or even just protecting your house from somebody breaking in. It's also to protect yourself from a
00:37:04
tyrannical government. And so if you like study how the Nazis took over Germany,
00:37:11
well, when they had no guns to defend themselves and you have the military showing up at your at your house at
00:37:18
night, well, all you can do is follow their rules and hope that they don't shoot you. And so I think it's funny
00:37:26
that he brings this up because I I think when people are arguing this point if they're proun if they're constantly
00:37:33
talking about well a tyrannical government and the chances of there being a tyrannical government are pretty
00:37:41
slim but they almost get fixated on this point. And I think definitely people like Timothy get stuck on this idea and
00:37:55
they almost manifest it into their own life even if it's not happening uh in the truest form to them.
00:38:04
Does that make any sense at all? No, it makes complete sense because think about
00:38:09
what's taken place in his life as as he's going down this this very dark road that that
00:38:17
he was on that he started off on a few years back during his time of his starting to hate these different
00:38:25
government agencies, the US government fearing that they are going to take away his guns or all of our guns. What has
00:38:32
taken place? Ruby Rich to for starters, right? Where that all started on some illegal gun
00:38:40
charges that Randy Weaver faced and it turned into the death of a US marshal and the death of his wife and son and
00:38:52
their daughter and then and then you afterward the family members or at least the two adults that survived faced
00:39:01
charges. you know, the the they wanted certain agencies wanted to charge them with the murder of the the officer. And
00:39:09
it's a very difficult situation to sort out who was right, who was wrong, and and as we said when we talked about it,
00:39:15
it appeared nobody was right and everybody was wrong and everything was mishandled and they really they really
00:39:23
went over the top unnecessarily with what they how they handled Ruby Rich. And so this is backing up his paranoia.
00:39:34
This is backing up his concern. The threat to him is being backed up by an incident like Ruby Rich. And then a year
00:39:41
later, whether you agree with the branch devidians or their apocalyptic views or
00:39:47
David Caresh or any of that nonsense of the story, where does it start with? A big part of that starts with the ATF
00:39:55
just simply wanting to to carry out these search warrants where illegal firearms is part of that search warrant.
00:40:04
They wanted to execute this search warrant, right? And so again, we hear the words illegal
00:40:11
firearms and what is the result? The result is the compound being surrounded by an army of ATF agents and local media
00:40:21
which then turns into to national media and the whole place goes up like a tinder box in flames resulting in the
00:40:30
death of so many civilians regardless of how the fire started. I've heard a lot of opinions and read a lot of opinions
00:40:36
on how this fire started. I don't know what the hell happened. I don't know who started the fire. All I know is that I
00:40:43
both sides handled this in complete disaster and it ended in complete in complete disaster. But this is this is
00:40:51
fueling him. This is this is furthering his beliefs that my my the thing that I'm worried about the stuff that
00:40:58
threatens me and the threat that I'm trying to tell everybody else out there. Look around you people. This shit's
00:41:04
really going on. This is really going down. Waco and Waco was a lot worse than Ruby Ridge. And it's only going to
00:41:11
continue to get worse. And he was witness to this. Correct. He, you know, when you're miles away, I'm sure it felt
00:41:21
different. It's It smells different. It looks different. But this becomes a slippery slope because whether it's the
00:41:33
government, the ATF, the FBI, whether it's the army, all these entities are made up of
00:41:42
humans. And humans make mistakes and humans can be good or evil. And so a lot of these people that start having these
00:41:52
more radical ideas, it's like if you want to find conspiracy, you can you can find it if you look for it. Doesn't mean
00:42:01
it's there, but because you think you're seeing it, it's it's true. It's in its truest form to you. And that's where I
00:42:10
think all this stuff becomes a very slippery slope. And somebody like Timothy reminds me of Remy from Higher
00:42:18
Learning. Uh, a smart guy that didn't really know what his direction was, was almost afraid of the world in a sense
00:42:27
and was looking for direction, but found it in these negative thoughts and and negative ideas
00:42:36
and spiraled completely out of control. Some of it some of it pushed by his own actions, own thoughts, own beliefs, but
00:42:45
some of it also furthered by what's going on around him and what he is witnessing. Well, and we don't know what
00:42:53
his mental health is, but when you're doing I can tell you this as far as McVey goes and I'm no doctor. I wouldn't
00:43:02
guess that it was good, my friend. Right. But what I'm saying is then if we have this history of
00:43:09
methamphetamines, this could put him into states of manic, you know, hyper manic or even
00:43:19
um maybe bouts of depression or even bouts of u psychosis. So, who knows what he's actually thinking in his brain.
00:43:30
Well, and hate begets hate. and what we're seeing here and of course we're just taking a glimpse at this time
00:43:39
period in Timothy McVeyy's life. What does not appear in this glimpse here, Captain? While he's I mean, he's openly
00:43:47
expressing the idea of threatening other people or assassinating a person or two
00:43:54
and talking about all of this these fears that he has that will be carried out by different government agencies.
00:44:02
Well, the people he's talking to, there's nobody telling him no. There's nobody saying no, that's not going to
00:44:06
happen to him. There's nobody saying no. Don't don't Oh, he told me about he wanted to build blow up a federal
00:44:12
building. Well, when did you try to talk him out of that? What you know there there's the people
00:44:19
around him while they may not be influencing him, they are certainly don't don't appear to be deterring him,
00:44:26
right? in deterring this type of behavior or saying, "Hey, man, you might want to go talk to somebody about this
00:44:33
because I I don't think you're a bad dude and I don't want bad things to end up happening to you. Let's let's go
00:44:40
let's go talk to somebody about this." That never comes up in any telling of of this story with with Timothy McVey,
00:44:49
right? It is said that at this time around this time is when he was already starting to talk about plans of blowing
00:45:00
up a federal building. Now how much was known by some of the others in his very small inner circle is difficult to say
00:45:10
and still is up for debate even to this day all of these years later. It's in some in some circles it's it's quite
00:45:19
highly debated and I think for good reason. I think for plenty of good reason. Like we just said, we've not
00:45:26
mentioned anybody who's trying to talk him out of these actions whether they believed he would carry them out or not.
00:45:32
But another thing that he's talking about at this time is he said he would later say that he considered a campaign
00:45:41
of individual assassination with certain eligible targets. And according to McVey, these eligible targets included
00:45:49
Attorney General Janet Reno, Judge Walter Smith Jr. of the federal court district or sorry, federal district
00:45:58
court. This is the judge who handled the branch devidian trial and also FBI agent
00:46:04
Lon Haruchi who we already talked about who was the FBI sniper on the uh rescue team for the FBI at Ruby Rich. Around
00:46:15
this same time as well, Captain, we have McVey and Terry Nichols who began making
00:46:21
bulk purchases of ammonium nitrate, which is an agricultural fertilizer. Now, I want to circle back
00:46:32
to McVey talking about and telling Lori about his plans to blow up a federal building. it the the plans were so he
00:46:42
was so descriptive according to Lori that he had explained to her how the bomb would be
00:46:50
constructed and I mean what it would look like the configuration of the bomb and that it needed to be mobile so they
00:46:58
could move it up to the building. But he also said that this would require a good
00:47:02
amount of money for funding and that he planned to get the funding by robbing a guy that he called Bob. And this would
00:47:12
turn out to be Robert Moore who lived in Arkansas. And he and Terry Nichols went
00:47:19
and robbed this man of a bunch of guns, jewelry, and valuables estimated worth thousands and
00:47:27
thousands of dollars. But I bring this up one because this action, this horrific action in his plan did require
00:47:38
some money, did require some air quotes funding. But we also saw a lot of this similar behavior from different
00:47:47
individuals and different groups that we talked about in episode one of Hate American Made where they were they were
00:47:57
stealing guns. They were regularly robbing for guns and using this to to fund all their little secret missions or
00:48:08
plots. By this time, Captain, we have McVey and Nicholls who are working at a farm or campground. It's
00:48:20
been described a few different ways. and they are busy constructing their explosive device, their their mobile
00:48:29
bomb, and they wanted to mount this in the back of a box truck. So, the short of it is that the two
00:48:41
constructed what is called anfo explosive device mounted in the back of a rented box truck. The bomb consisted of
00:48:51
about 5,000 lbs of that ammonium nitrate and and nitromemethane. So now we are at April
00:49:03
17th and April 18th, 1995. And this is when Timothy McVey and Terry Nichols removed bomb supplies that
00:49:13
they they they had been acquiring these supplies for this bomb and for their mission and keeping them in a storage
00:49:20
unit in Harrington, Kansas. And on these two days, they spent time loading these items into the
00:49:31
back of a rider rental truck that they had secured. So they're, if you're trying to picture this, they are
00:49:39
outfitting this truck to really be a gigantic bomb on wheels. Yeah. And they wanted to construct it in a way that
00:49:48
with these box trucks, keep in mind, the the the box portion of it, the cargo portion of it is separate from the cabin
00:49:58
of of the truck or or where the operator, the driver of the truck would sit. So they need to construct it in a
00:50:04
way that the driver or the passenger who are riding up front can light, ignite and start the fuse to
00:50:16
eventually blow up this giant bomb that has been constructed in the box portion of the truck without getting into the
00:50:24
back portion of the truck. They want to be able to light the fuse, hop out, and leave. the following day. But I'm sure
00:50:34
when they're renting this truck, they ask, "Would you like to have uh insurance on this?" I wonder if they
00:50:42
made a comment of, "Well, we don't need insurance on this truck." Well, no. We would later learn that
00:50:48
Timothy McVey turned down the insurance and told the um individual that rented it to him that he one he didn't want it
00:50:56
and on top of that he's he's a really good driver and was used to driving vehicles of this size. Never mentioned
00:51:02
the bomb they're going to put in it. On April 19th, 1995, at 8:50 a.m., Timothy McVey
00:51:10
driving a yellow rider rental truck arrives in Oklahoma City. At 8:55 a.m., a video camera captured the rider truck
00:51:20
heading towards downtown Oklahoma City. At 9:02 a.m., the bomb explodes in the rider truck parked outside the Alfred P.
00:51:32
Mura Federal Building. A massive car bomb exploded outside of a large federal building in downtown
00:51:41
Oklahoma City, shattering that building, killing children, killing federal employees, military men, and
00:51:48
civilians. The chaos in downtown Oklahoma City did indeed resemble Beirut after what police believe to be a,200 lb
00:51:55
car bomb ripped through the ninestory federal building shortly after 9:00 this morning. More than 500 people were
00:52:02
already in their offices and at least 50 children were in a daycare center on the
00:52:07
second floor. The bombing in Oklahoma City was an attack on innocent children and defenseless
00:52:18
citizens. It was an act of cowardice and it was evil. The United States will not tolerate it
00:52:29
and I will not allow the people of this country to be intimidated by evil cowards. I have
00:52:38
met with our team which we assembled to deal with this bombing and I have determined to take the following steps
00:52:49
to asssure the strongest response to this situation. First, I have deployed a crisis
00:52:56
management team under the leadership of the FBI, working with the Department of Justice, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
00:53:04
and Firearms, military and local authorities. We are sending the world's finest investigators to solve these
00:53:13
murders. Second, I have declared an emergency in Oklahoma City. And at my direction, James Lee Wit, the director
00:53:22
of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is now on his way there to make sure we do everything we can to help the
00:53:29
people of Oklahoma deal with the tragedy. Third, we are taking every precaution to reassure and to protect
00:53:37
people who work in or live near other federal facilities. Let there be no room for
00:53:45
doubt. We will find the people who did this. When we do, justice will be swift, certain, and
00:53:56
severe. These people are killers, and they must be treated like killers. Finally, let me say that I ask all
00:54:08
Americans tonight to pray. To pray for the people who have lost their lives, to pray for the families and the
00:54:19
friends of the dead and the wounded. To pray for the people of Oklahoma City. May God's grace be with
00:54:28
them. Meanwhile, we will be about our work. Thank you. How many people [Music] [Applause]
00:55:01
[Music]