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foreign [Music] foreign foreign garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for listening I'm your host
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Nick and with me as always is a man who's working on a mystery without any clues but plenty of booze he is the
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captain Oh yeah I waited on the Thunder I waited on the Thunder it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for
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listening thanks for telling a friend [Music] today we are drinking Texas red this is
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an American Big Texas amber lager Texas red is extremely balanced super smooth and a perfect end of the day relaxer
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garage grade three and a half bottle caps out of five and this week's beer is brought To Us by all of you awesome
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people out there specifically we want to thank Zach in leicestershire United Kingdom and a big shout out to Jamie and
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caddy Texas next up a long distance cheers and thank you to our friend Emily and Kilkenny Ireland I think maybe that
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and click on the Donate button it's actually fun having enough friend that works at the Burger Shack because they
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smell tasty and that is enough for the beers Nest all right everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer let's
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talk some true crime [Music] a tragic house fire just two days before Christmas three little children trapped
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inside a father cannot get his children out but he somehow manages to escape the
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children die but the man is barely injured and we discussed yesterday things at his home were less than
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respectable people began to judge this man he was arrested where we left off yesterday we
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had covered the early stages of the trial we presented the prosecution's case today let's start with the defense
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Todd's attorneys attempted to poke holes in the arson investigators findings but
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they did not present any expert Witnesses David Martin later stated that he had limited funds to hire a rebuttal arson
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expert and the one that they hired agreed that the prosecution's arson analysis was correct
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Martin got fog to agree that he could not say that Amber did not set the fire but that was all he could get
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Martin did present into evidence photos of the front porch of the house showing that there was a charcoal grill and a
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melted bottle of lighter fluid on the front porch attempting to show that the puddle patterns found on the floor of
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the porch and hallway could have been from spilled lighter fluid sprayed around by one of the kids or kerosene
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from an oil lamp found in the house that had admittedly been ignored by investigators also Martin pointed out
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both Todd and Stacy were smokers and cigarette lighters were readily available throughout the house
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Amber could climb over the baby gate in the doorway of her room she could have tried to light the old
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lamp and it spilled in the process Martin also asked fog on cross-examination if the witness knew
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that the type of lighter fluid found at the house had been recalled because the flip top lid was too easily opened by
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children Martin went after Vasquez as well challenging his conclusions about the
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fire's point of origin and Todd's lack of burns on his feet the defense only presented two witnesses
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one was Stacy's cousin who babysat for the family she testified that there was a kerosene lamp in the house and also
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that Todd would never have set that fire another was a jailhouse informant who testified that Johnny Webb the state's
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first witness had been fed his information and only testified against Todd because he was under threat from
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some deputies at the end of the defense's case there was a very strange interlude in which
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Martin called Todd to the stand out of the presence of the jury but with the courtroom full of Observers and
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asked him if he intended to testify Todd responded quote I don't feel that I should have to I don't feel that I need
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to and quote with that the defense rested yeah I found that a little odd but I think what they were trying to do
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was to prove the point that the burden is on the prosecution and that this guy that's on trial for the you know really
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a heinous murder of his children is saying hey look I don't think you met burden of proof yeah this could have
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been orchestrated by the defense the only issue I take with that is that the jury's not present so I don't know what
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effect it would have on the case unless they're trying to prove a point to the judge
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that there was not enough evidence to convict right later it emerged that Dunn and Martin had dissuaded Todd from
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testifying believing that he would not make a sympathetic witness so with that you also have to wonder
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if they're just doing their due diligence where he is saying that he wants to testify behind
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closed doors to his attorneys and they are trying to talk him out of it to which they wanted it on the record for
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court record to cover their own butts that they at least gave him the attempt the the chance to testify and he the
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client declined right I I think the reason why they don't want him to testify is
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he comes off as a liar right away to everybody and that's before the people are really suspicious that he might have
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caused this fire so and then the rumors that he constantly changed his story as a lawyer probably going we don't know
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what he's capable of saying on the stand yeah yeah this is one of those one of those stories where I feel like you know
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technically the defense team did their jobs but yeah I mean regardless if you think Todd is guilty or not I have to
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ask myself and everybody else out there the question do you think they did a good job they they put up only one
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character witness a teenager no Experts of Their Own after the trial right and I felt like
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they could have we have statements from his wife which you would think that if she thinks he's
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responsible for this that she would hate him you'd think at some point they would get
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her to say in court you know yes he was a he was a piece of [ __ ] and he beat me and he thought he
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was Billy badass with his shitty mullet but he thought the world of his daughters and he wouldn't have done this
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he wouldn't have killed his daughters that's interesting for the defense I guess in their in their defense it's a
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it's a constant Battle of trying to determine how much sympathy the jury is going to find
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in a witness or your client in comparison to the information that they're being told by that witness or
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the client at the same point where maybe somebody like me might say well we know he was abusive to her and
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she still says he couldn't have done it right that carries a lot of weight for me there's other people on the opposite
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side of the fence would that would then say well we have proof we have proof that
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he's abusive he's a monster and I I actually believe that points more toward that he did do it even though she says
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he couldn't have right or is she just saying this out of fear because if he gets out what's going to happen to her
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look they try to poke holes and the experts uh opinion right but like you said they didn't call their own expert
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and I think that is probably the biggest downfall and that might have been out of
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their hands and I know that's scary to think about uh but it's probably the reality maybe not 100 in this case but
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it's the reality in a lot of cases that have gone on in our system throughout the years
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obviously Todd didn't have any money his defense was provided by the state they did say look we we had a very small
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budget we used a portion of that to pay an arson expert however that expert said he agreed with the
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findings of the prosecution of the of the prosecution's witnesses and then boom our budget's done we have no more
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money if Todd had been a rich man and if there were a lot of money to fund his defense he'd be a rich piece of [ __ ]
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they would have found somebody to dispute some of those expert findings Yeah the more I learn about our justice
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system and Justice systems around the world one thing that seems to be very clear is the only way for you to
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actually get a fair trial is to have money that that's a pretty strong statement I think most would agree with
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you um I do in this situation I don't know if I would say that 100 across the board
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one thing I do not agree with at all is after the trial Todd's lawyers were vocal about the fact that they did not
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believe their client was innocent Dunn said to an interviewer quote to me he was not repentant he had this
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attitude and error about him that he was wrongfully charged and quote even worse
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the lead defense counsel David Martin said quote the real fact of the matter is that Willingham was guilty he wasn't
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innocent he really set that fire and killed those kids end quote the jurors agreed
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and post-trial interviews they said there was never a question as to Todd's guilt one juror Laura Marx said she
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would have found Todd guilty even without the arson finding solely because he did not try to save his children
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the deck it seems was stacked against Todd from the start in all the trial lasted just three days
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the jury deliberated for just 77 minutes wow Cameron Todd Willingham was found to
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be guilty every time I think I know most most of the things about the case then you throw something out that I didn't
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hear 77 minutes is not that long well that's because I'm making it up as I go along
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oh yeah okay in so it's quite easy I think they um I thought I think they thought about this for about 77 minutes
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in the penalty phase prosecutor Jackson painted Todd as a violent psychopath and he brought in a medical expert to
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testify to this psychiatrist Dr James Gregson testified that Todd was a quote extremely severe
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psychopath the psychologist Tim Gregory testified that the posters on Todd's wall showed violence and death he said
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many times individuals that have a lot of this type of art have interest in satanic type activities
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so again just one of a bazillion crimes where we see something as simple as some
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artwork with skulls on it right and somebody's saying that there's a chance that this guy is a psychopath that he's
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a Satan worshiper um I have that cool skull on my kitchen table I'm going to throw it away you
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know what I can't ever you know he's into the devil right I I guess I guess to be fair
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um I don't think that the psychopath determination was based solely off of these posters obviously this guy's
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beating his wife repeatedly and possibly very likely could be a psychopath and possibly beating her while she's
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pregnant now here's where we get more character Witnesses this is because we have the penalty phase right so several
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members of Todd's family they would take the stand here asking the judge to spare
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Todd from the death penalty this time it did include Stacy Jackson proceeded to grill her about the
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tattoos Todd had he asked about the significance of the very large tattoo of a skull encircled
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by some kind of serpent Stacy responded that it was simply just a tattoo it didn't mean anything yeah
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the tattoo what she should have said is that tattoos as shitty as his haircut prosecutor John Jackson never wavered
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from his conviction that Todd was guilty the supposed pentagram on the floor and
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the Satanist image posters on his walls were just icing on the cake the jury sentenced Todd to death after
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deliberating for less than two hours he was then moved to the Texas state prison
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at Huntsville to await his execution baton he's gonna get a pen pal once he's in prison right well in 1999 a 47 year
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old playwright named Elizabeth Gilbert decided to do a good deed and participate in a program where people
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become pen pals with death row prisoners she was assigned to Todd Willingham who
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by now was on death row for the last seven years the two struck up in unlikely friendship
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Elizabeth began looking into Todd's case after she visited him in prison and found him to be clean cut polite
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she just thought he was a nice young man and he was adamant that he was innocent
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he's been fooling people for a while she read the trial transcripts and spoke with his family and she was horrified at
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what she found Gilbert concluded that Todd's trial was completely unfair for one thing the psychiatrist who testified
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that Todd was a psychopath had never actually met Todd at all that seems like it should be part of the
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requirement right to diagnose somebody as a psychopath yeah well I've been diagnosing people as pieces of [ __ ] for
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a long time I never met any of them and then we have Dr Gregson who testified for the prosecution and more than 100
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death penalty cases so this earned him the nickname of Dr Death and in 1995 three years after
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willingham's trial Gregson was expelled from the American Psychiatric association for violating ethics
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turns out Gregson repeatedly arrived at a psychiatric diagnosis without examining the individuals in question
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and for indicating while testifying in court as an expert witness that he could predict with 100 certainty that
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individuals would engage in future violent Acts to top that off the supposed satanic imagery found in
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Todd's home and presented to the jury was actually a Led Zeppelin and an Iron Maiden poster
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Todd's stepmother and brother told Elizabeth what a good dad Todd was he had settled down and married Stacy
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for the good of his kids Elizabeth even met with Stacy who divorced Todd and refused to visit him on death row
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Stacy told Elizabeth seven years after the trial that Todd beat her but she still believed he would never hurt the
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kids Stacy added when the fire occurred things were good between them and Todd had no reason to set it furthermore
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Stacy said that the morning of the fire it was cool out and she recalled that the space heater in the kids room was
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powered on more than once she said she found Amber messing with it well it's weird because it just happened stance
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that that Elizabeth gets connected with Todd and that she's the type of person that will go out of her way to try to
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figure out this case at least to get more evidence so she can make a judgment for herself and then she goes well now I
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think he's innocent and but he's set to die by the hands of the state yeah she's
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I mean she's convinced after meeting with his family after meeting with Stacy reading the trial transcripts that Todd
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has been railroaded but unfortunately his execution date is getting closer and she kind of fears that there's nothing
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that she can do then Todd confesses to her that he has been hiding this big secret for a decade
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now Todd said he had lied to investigators about his attempts to rescue the children
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he was racked with guilt as Elizabeth told Frontline quote in his mind he couldn't acknowledge that he didn't you
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know tried to save his children so he concocted the story that he you know tried to go in and find the babies and
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couldn't Todd says quote what I am guilty of is being a coward shortly after this Elizabeth was in a
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terrible auto accident and her ability to help Todd came to a screeching halt but
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science modernizes and so does fire science before the Todd Willingham murder trial
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this on February 10 1992 the National Fire Protection Association published a groundbreaking document titled NFPA 921
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this document compiled by 30 fire experts including John lentini who will come up again contained updated
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guidelines for fire investigators that reflected many new advances in fire science the Texas Fire Marshal's Office
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along with most other fire investigatory bodies adopted NFPA 921 as the standard
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in fire analysis NFPA 921 was based on fire science not the folklore and gut instinct that
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dominated fire investigations for Generations yeah which kind of drives me nuts that it would even be possible that
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somebody would be sentenced to death for arson if basically the investigators are
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just going off of gut instincts and not some proven science one thing we all need to keep in mind and this is one
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General misconception that I see often when talking to a lot of people regarding trial and testimony presented
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at trial when somebody sits on the stand and tells you what they think happened we need to keep in mind that even though
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the prosecution or the defense or even the judge or the court itself is telling you that so and so is here they are an
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expert you need to keep in mind that what you have to do as a juror what your job is
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as a juror is to take that information and take it into consideration it doesn't necessarily mean that
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somebody sitting on the stand is presenting to you the fact that this is in fact arson or this murder had to be
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conducted this way because I'm an expert and I say this is how it happened it's not fact it's one expert's opinion
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right and then we weigh those opinions against our own feelings and the other information that is presented the
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problem you have here in this particular case is there's no other opinion that was presented at the time now I will say
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this Todd Willingham is one of the most unlucky people to ever be tried in in court and
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I say that because of this and this this is regardless if you think he's innocent
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or guilty what takes place here is this document that becomes the new standard for fire
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investigation becomes the new standard on how you determine if arson was committed this NFPA 921 document
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this does not go into effect until February of 1992. by this point the investigation at Todd's home has
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already been conducted yeah they're going off of the old information these two these two old school guys went
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through the scene saw what they saw and then gave their opinion and said hey this fire was set and we know Todd
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Willingham was in the home at the time that the fire started he must be the one that started it and therefore he needs
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to be arrested he was arrested in January uh January 8th this document goes out in February now
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here's where it becomes a big uh a big time misstep in my opinion uh-huh yes he's already arrested yes he's going
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to be charged however his murder trial the triple homicide trial does not start until what was it August so we have
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months that go by that say this these two experts opinion might not be the best opinion out there right and
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basically what states is these guys are going by the old school way so guess what
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their opinion don't mean [ __ ] and so I again I think um you would think that the defense lawyers
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would know about this report and use this to their their advantage but but a lot of them are defending so many people
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so who knows yeah that's that's again where I say it it looks like technically they did their
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job they represented this man and they they did put up some fight but then you have to at the end of the day question
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truly how much of a fight did they provide and their job and their Duty as an attorney in representing this man is
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they have a fiduciary duty to every one of his best interests or what they're supposed to be pushing right
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well yeah and I think here like you said they they try to get their own expert witness and they go well I
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agree with the the states yeah because he's going off of the old information I would guess as well right and the thing
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is you could disprove everything that they say just by simply going do you go by this new way or the old way
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oh you go by the old way well guess what that doesn't count anymore so guess what
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you're not an expert anymore unless you're going by the new way well here's the other thing too when they're
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dispersing that information I I kind of Wonder even if the defense here's the thing we we were just talking
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about you you said to me in yesterday's show so you're saying here on the record
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that you're not a fire investigator an arson expert and I said no I only know what I know from this case and a few
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other Fire cases that we've covered in the past right the his attorneys Todd's attorneys are not technically fire
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experts either the disappointing thing here is that these two experts made their analysis in
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their opinion in January which led to his arrest then they are on the stand in August and at no point do they say hey
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some of the thought on this stuff has changed right and you know we do see that from time to time especially when
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you're talking about people that have that are working in a field where they have 20 25 years experience and then
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something new comes about they ain't always on board in the beginning or sometimes ever now speaking
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of experts this will bring us to a significant point in our story which is in January of 2004.
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keep in mind Todd's execution is scheduled for February 17th so we're just weeks away from Texas
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executing Todd Willingham his appeals have been exhausted by this point we have his cousin her name is
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Patricia Cox she saw a fire science fire scientist named Gerald Hurst on TV Dr Hurst was a chemist with a PhD from
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Cambridge who studied fire from a chemical and scientific perspective one journalist referred to him as the
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Godfather of modern arson science Pat called Hearst and begged him to take a look at Todd's case
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Hearst agreed to free of charge four weeks before Todd was scheduled to be executed Hearst received the trial
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transcripts the state's arson report and a videotape showing the actual fire scene
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first completely throughout the entire report that was used to convict Todd he found that its conclusions were not
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rooted in scientific fact but outdated Concepts and myths [Music] [Music] all right we're back cheers mates cheers
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you filthy animals so Dr Hurst he was eventually interviewed by Frontline and he reported
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his findings in that interview now here's what he had to say the fire had gone to flash over
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flashover left natural patterns on the floor that all post flashover fires tend to leave behind and these were what was
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misidentified as the poor patterns he goes on to say that the prosecutor in this case literally believed that the
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burn patterns on the floor were in the shape of a pentagram like some Satanic ritual
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when you actually look at the burn pattern that they drew and then you look at where the windows are windows furnish
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ventilation to the fire right there's like a ventilation stream so really all what you're looking at in
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his opinion was what he calls ventilation patterns he also said that the sample of wood
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debris from the base of the front porch that was analyzed the results were positive for a
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combustible liquid accelerant kerosene specifically right well that's quite understandable because the porch also
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had a barbecue on it so likely there was charcoal lighter fluid there if there was Hearst believed that either the
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lighter fluid spilled or it spilled out when the container melted but it did not
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cause the fire this is this is a little tricky because we have the defense earlier pointing out
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that there was in fact charcoal lighter fluid on the front porch that could have
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been spilled by one of the kids right but there's also a grill out there that's it seems like that's where Todd
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grilled out was the front porch weren't burned because if no accelerant was poured on the floor the floor would
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have been relatively cool until after the flashover occurred in the bedroom right
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did you see the video footage of the flashover I did yeah it's amazing how quickly that
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room went and went into flames yeah well here's also one sad thing that I would like to point out when we talk
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about Todd's feet and that there was no accelerant poured on the floor and that's why
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you know in his defense his feet weren't burnt his feet are also not burned because he didn't attempt to save
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anybody right we know that from his confession to Elizabeth Gilbert so that's at this point talking to
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Frontline or whoever it doesn't matter about his feet Dad's feet his feet aren't burned because like he said he's
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a coward if if we are to believe him he he didn't set the fire but he didn't try
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to save anybody the crazed glass and the windows Dr Hurst says has not caused just by
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extreme heat requiring an accelerant it's also caused by heated windows that are then sprayed with water from fire
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hoses causing the glass to Splinter right and that'd be new science information that they would have got in
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this new report which is horseshit in my opinion this should have been old science this one piece right here
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because anybody that's taken like if you take a glass that that comes out of the
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hot dishwasher steam cycle immediately and try to pour cold water into it or fill it up with cold water we've we all
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see the effect of that right the the sudden change in temperature applied to Glass will cause it to break Splinter so
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on and so forth yeah like I said uh or like you said this is definitely something that they should have already
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known we also talked about the temperature of the fire and wood fires only burned so
00:32:15
hot that was their evidence stating that the aluminum threshold could not have been melted simply by a wood fire had to
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have been melted due to an accelerant fire he's saying Hurst is saying that it's a
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myth that an accelerant would have been needed to melt the aluminum threshold he's pointing out that wood fires can
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burn that hot or hot enough on their own right he also points out and I think this is where you were going Captain the
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V patterns that can be found V patterns can be found after a flashover they are not indicative of a point of origin
00:32:53
Dr hurst's report concluded that the fire that had killed Carmen Cameron and Amber was not an arson in his opinion he
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stated on Front Line quote Todd willingham's case falls into that category where there is not one iota of
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evidence that the fire was arson not one iota and he added this quote there's nothing to suggest to any reasonable
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arson investigator that this was an arson fire it was just a fire it was likely caused by the space heater or
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faulty electrical wiring this meant that Todd Willingham was convicted and sentenced to death without any crime
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taking place unfortunately Dr Hurst finished his report only four days before Todd's scheduled execution
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Todd's appeals lawyer Walter Reeves this is a different attorney filed several emergency last minute
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appeals sending Dr hurst's report to the Texas Board of Pardons and paroles asking for Todd's sentence to be
00:33:57
commuted the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals as well asking for the execution to be halted and the U.S Supreme Court
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and the governor of Texas office Rick Perry whose office received it with only 88 minutes to spare
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despite her's findings the Texas appeals court refused to delay the execution the
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state court wouldn't hear the case the Board of Pardons and paroles denied Todd's petition
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and astoundingly the Governor Rick Perry declined to Grant Todd a reprieve while
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the new report was considered okay now the Rick Perry his office got it I believe on a Friday yeah I think that
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was the report that went out there but the report here is that his office received it with 88 minutes to spare
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okay so an hour less than an hour and a half before the execution right you wish
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that these reports got there sooner but here's why I'm on because we created this system that's flawed and
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we know it's flawed that's why we have appeals and things like that but here's this guy that went on trial with gut
00:35:13
feelings and not actual scientific evidence it's like it's like saying that's this is before DNA so therefore I
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believe the DNA matches and then DNA comes out and we have scientific proof on when it matches and
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does it and not just some gut feeling and that's what happened here and it seems to me constantly that the state
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and the justice system itself doesn't want to examine itself it just wants to say
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it it constantly wants to defend itself to say we got it right the first time well his appeals were exhausted they did
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examine theirselves as your as you as you say um he had several appeals he did receive
00:36:01
different representation during that appeals process right how how adequate was that
00:36:10
um representation you know if they're not it seems pretty thorough to me Walter Reeves filed
00:36:17
several emergency last minute appeals sending them to one two three four four different
00:36:24
offices no no I mean the fact that all these offices saw these and go We're not gonna we're not
00:36:33
going to call a timeout right now we're just moving forward we got it right moving forward
00:36:40
so I mean right no I I get it I get it where here's here's the other thing to keep
00:36:47
that I would keep in mind anyway that when I'm reviewing this it Rick Perry is going to have some
00:36:55
further involvement in this case or these types of cases let's say that we'll call in a question his
00:37:03
character for me right I wonder when receiving this report 88 minutes and less than an hour and a half
00:37:13
before the execution did he even was it even reviewed was there even time to review you know what
00:37:20
I mean it's like and it's nobody's fault that's just the way that it worked out that's pretty last minute
00:37:30
it is it is very last minute and there's there's no turning back if somebody if that report is not seen
00:37:38
reviewed before the 88th minute yeah the other thing too I also want to point out
00:37:46
I respect this Dr Hurst I respect his findings and I believe his findings are correct
00:37:53
I will point out though his report also well I shouldn't say also his report does not provide a point of
00:38:02
origin for the fire itself well he believed that it was actually I I think his will go back to gut feeling is that it
00:38:12
was electrical and that to determine that would have taken minutes is what he claimed because
00:38:19
you could follow because now everything is exposed so you'd be able to follow the wire to see where it was faulty at
00:38:27
correct I get that but in this report that I cited here he States it could have been electrical wiring bad wiring
00:38:34
or it could have been the space heater right but the reason why he doesn't have that is because he wasn't he wasn't
00:38:41
physically there he wasn't physically there to Go Through the Wire so you know I he can only base it off of he's saying
00:38:49
he's saying had he looked at it been physically there this is the route he would have taken he would have been
00:38:57
able to conclude within minutes if it was faulty wiring right because if there wasn't faulty wiring then you could
00:39:02
point to the space heater so I I'm guessing that there was faulty wiring but this is one of those weird
00:39:09
cases where people believe somebody's innocent or guilty and there's not much of a conclusion yes this guy is
00:39:17
sentenced to death and he he goes through with it I mean like he he is put to death
00:39:25
um and what is what I was saying giving a spoiler alert so the the weird thing too while this is
00:39:34
all going on mind you this is starting in January and leading up to the date of execution during this time frame Stacy
00:39:42
his ex-wife now their divorce she comes out publicly and stated that she now believed Todd to be guilty for years she
00:39:50
maintained that he was innocent right even campaigning for his release by writing to the governor but now she said
00:39:59
after reading the entire trial transcript she changed her mind she finally visited Todd in prison just
00:40:07
weeks before his scheduled execution date and the two exchanged some words Todd asked her not to attend his
00:40:15
execution right and Todd asked her to bury him by you know with his kids she denied both of these requests Todd
00:40:27
later found out that Stacy's brother signed an affidavit in opposition to his appeals for clemency saying that Todd
00:40:36
had confessed the crime to Stacy this is not true this didn't happen but Todd believed that uh Stacy had turned on him
00:40:46
on February 17 2004 Todd's parents spent a few hours with him to say goodbye he told them he didn't want them to
00:40:56
worry and that he would be okay Todd ate his final meal at 4 pm this was three barbecued pork ribs two orders of
00:41:06
onion rings fried okra three beef enchiladas with cheese and two slices of lemon cream pie while you eat the okra
00:41:15
because it's good for you then he was told that Governor Perry refused his request for a stay that statement makes
00:41:23
it sound like it the information that was sent to his office was in fact reviewed right
00:41:30
basically for Todd time is up Todd refused to cooperate and he had to be carried into the execution chamber
00:41:39
shortly after 6 PM Todd Willingham was executed by a lethal injection his final statement was quote
00:41:48
the only statement that I want to make is that I am an innocent man convicted of a crime I did not commit I have been
00:41:56
persecuted for 12 years for something I did not do from God's dust I came into dust I will return so the Earth shall
00:42:06
become my Throne I gotta go Road dog I love you Gabby when Todd finished with this statement he started swearing in
00:42:14
the direction of his ex-wife Stacy who was watching the preceding contrary to his wishes
00:42:21
he said a few sentences that I will not repeat and then a lethal cocktail was administered and Todd Willingham was
00:42:29
pronounced dead at 6 20 PM yeah I think she he told her that he wished that should
00:42:36
F and rot in hell yes there it's I think he probably said more than that yeah that's what they
00:42:45
report most of the time it's actually about four sentences along and it's pretty brutal
00:42:52
um the Chicago Tribune later that same year this is on December 9th 2004. the Tribune had a shocking
00:43:01
headline on page one that said Texas man executed on disproved forensics the second headline stated fire that
00:43:11
killed his three children could have been accidental the story was sixteen thousand words the
00:43:17
newspaper conducted its own investigation of the Willingham case and hired four fire science experts to
00:43:24
review the evidence including John latini and general Hearst the four experts unanimously found that
00:43:33
Willingham was prosecuted and convicted based primarily on arson theories that have since been uh refuted and by
00:43:41
scientific advances the paper cited that the original investigation was flawed and the fire
00:43:47
was possibly an accident John Jackson the prosecutor in the Willingham case stuck to his guns even
00:43:55
in the face of this report but a juror in the case felt differently she questioned if anyone knew about the
00:44:03
hearse report prior to the execution adding quote now I will have to live with this for the rest of my life maybe
00:44:11
this man was innocent and end quote the Tribune also interviewed Douglas Falk the assistant fire chief in the
00:44:20
Willingham investigation he said that his findings were correct he said fires talk to you the structure
00:44:28
talks to you he said you call that years of experience you don't just pick that knowledge up overnight he has refused to
00:44:36
admit that it is possible that his conclusions were based on erroneous assumptions and outdated Concepts
00:44:45
he told Frontline I don't care how many degrees you have how many books you may have written this
00:44:52
was a set fire yeah this guy is a [ __ ] this is one of those guys that go my gut
00:44:57
feeling tells me that the Earth is flat and and I don't give a [ __ ] what science
00:45:01
says uh it's ridiculous the Corsicana Police Department Sergeant Jimmy Hensley who helped interrogate
00:45:11
Todd after the fire told Frontline quote the thing is we eliminated all those possibilities of gas or accidental
00:45:18
things that could have caused the fire so if they're eliminated and they're not present then it's arson
00:45:26
so I mean this is if you believe this statement then it's like as if arson exists just because the
00:45:33
absence of any known cause right and there's also causes that they didn't check they didn't check the wiring right
00:45:40
and that that was one big thing that comes out in this whole thing you know the Tribune for the very first time
00:45:48
publicly revealed that fogg's report did no possible electrical shorts in two places inside the home right this is a
00:45:59
yeah this is stupid in June of 2005 Governor Perry signed a law establishing the Texas forensic science commission
00:46:08
this govern government agency was a panel to improve forensics in the state and investigate forensic analysts
00:46:15
misconduct this included ensuring that forensic fire investigation techniques were up to
00:46:23
date meanwhile as a result of the Chicago Tribune's expose on Todd's case the Innocence Project got involved in trying
00:46:32
to posthumously exonerate Todd it consulted with fire experts including John lentini in reviewing the arson
00:46:42
evidence on May 2nd 2006 the innocent project released a report from its fire experts
00:46:49
that was starkly critical of the original fire investigation that concluded that quote each and every one
00:46:56
of the indicators of arson had been scientifically proven to be invalid the Innocence Project sent its report to the
00:47:06
tfsc the Texas forensic science commission with a request that they investigate Todd's case Sam Bessette the
00:47:15
chair of the board decided to hire Dr Craig Baylor for their first inquiry to look into the case
00:47:24
on August 24 2009 Baylor's report came out he found that the original fire investigation relied on indicators of
00:47:33
arson that had since been disproved the initial investigators Fogg and Vasquez failed to examine all of the
00:47:41
electrical outlets appliances and wiring in the Willingham house and did not consider other potential causes of Fire
00:47:50
as John lentini summarized the Baylor report is point for point a confirmation of the original Hearst report that all
00:47:59
20 of the indicators were wrong the evidence says this was an accidental fire further Baylor's report found that the
00:48:08
fire investigators did not meet the standard of care for fire investigation at the time
00:48:15
vasquez's findings are nothing more than a collection of personal beliefs that have nothing to do
00:48:21
with science-based fire investigation this is what Baylor concluded right he also said that a finding of arson could
00:48:29
not be sustained this was very bad news for Governor Perry he was up for another
00:48:35
term in office and look the last thing he wants looming over his re-election is the Specter of a
00:48:43
possible innocent man being executed under his watch so two days before Dr Baylor was
00:48:51
scheduled to testify before the tfsc about his findings Perry fired chairman Sam Bessette and
00:49:01
two others on the commission what a [ __ ] stain Perry named John Bradley this is a
00:49:07
close Ally as beset's replacement and the Baylor testimony was canceled this move by Perry backfired somewhat
00:49:16
because when word got out that he had engaged in political maneuvering to avoid publicizing the negligence in
00:49:24
Todd's case the story became a national one sparking outrage by anti-death penalty activists
00:49:33
on April 14 2011 the tfsc released a report that concluded its review of the Willingham case the report acknowledged
00:49:44
that their fire investigation had changed and the willinghams investigators had relied on now outdated
00:49:52
science but also found that there was insufficient evidence that fog and Vasquez were negligent having used
00:49:59
standards accepted in Texas at the time meanwhile a judge who had voted to uphold Texas
00:50:10
meanwhile a judge who had voted to uphold Todd's death sentence when he was on the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals
00:50:17
in 1995 agreed in 2010 to convene a court of inquiry to determine whether Todd had
00:50:25
been wrongfully convicted this was in response to an appeal by Todd's family directly
00:50:31
the judge Was preparing an order for exoneration but the third court of appeals shut this
00:50:39
inquiry down on the basis that the judge should recuse himself because he had previously ruled on the case back in
00:50:47
1995 right and was not permitted to conduct further inquiry or issue his order of exoneration
00:50:57
Captain I can tell by the the steam coming off my head well in the the low beer uh count in the fridge and the
00:51:08
clock on the wall that we are running out of some time so I do want to I'm going to summarize something that's also
00:51:14
pretty big in this case remember we talked about Johnny Webb this guy that comes forward from jail and he says hey
00:51:21
Todd confessed to me that he killed his kids yeah he came home one day and Stacy
00:51:28
had done something to one of them maybe one of the kids was almost dead or even dead and Todd comes up with this idea
00:51:35
let's burn the house down and we're gonna hide this whole thing that's basically his testimony
00:51:42
without getting too far into the details of this Johnny Webb eventually does recant that
00:51:51
he he there's a there's a retraction of his testimony right he actually says you
00:51:57
know I I was fed some information and I went along with it and I testified against this guy and I was promised some
00:52:06
you know like we said favor for a favor yeah and he didn't get it he he did receive some uh
00:52:15
favors right um you know again without getting too much into the details of such his case
00:52:22
was recommended for an early parole this by the prosecutor of Todd Willingham he
00:52:29
was also hooked up with a somebody that might take care of him once he is on the
00:52:34
outside somebody that provided him with money for things like getting back on his feet so he could find a job getting
00:52:40
a vehicle things of that nature so he did receive some help uh even if you want to go and say that
00:52:48
it was from a third or fourth or even fifth party the problem with Johnny Webb is there
00:52:55
will be multiple times that he will say I was lying when I testified and then later he comes back and says no I wasn't
00:53:01
lying and then he comes back again and says he was lying I don't I can't believe anything the guy
00:53:07
says so I think you throw the whole thing out yeah I think for the most part you throw out any
00:53:14
prison type confession because they never seem to go well so the thing here too is in Johnny Webb's
00:53:26
defense and I know I just said I don't know that I can believe anything he says this is backed up by other individuals
00:53:34
that we have some that have been named in this story and are telling of this case and some that have not been named
00:53:40
unfortunately Johnny Webb was brutally attacked when he was in jail there's evidence to that suggested to me that
00:53:48
this was a man that was very afraid uh possibly even for his life I think that he would have been easily
00:53:57
manipulated or maybe even came up with some of it on his own anything he could it was Battle
00:54:05
conditions for this dude and I think he was doing anything he could to to save himself right and what's so pathetic
00:54:12
though is we don't know why those conditions were that way because I I was watching
00:54:19
um a dramatization of something and it it almost seemed as if the the prison put a certain person In
00:54:28
Harm's Way knowing that later they're going to use them to testify against somebody else and that person we just we
00:54:35
don't know yet we need a little help with the trial probably down the line and that's the person we're going to use
00:54:41
but they're the ones setting up the really bad harsh conditions in prison yeah or or failing to understand that
00:54:48
there are harsh conditions or or persons in danger right yeah you know as as funny as this may
00:54:55
sound to to hear um and and this and I I bring this up because this is something that you you
00:55:04
get when you talk about inmates on death row but it also goes to the same standard of
00:55:11
people in jail awaiting trial Jeffrey Epstein would be a good example and he's been in the news a whole lot lately
00:55:18
um technically it is the state's Duty it's the state's job to make sure that even if
00:55:26
um somebody is put on death row even if John piece of [ __ ] Smith is put on death
00:55:31
row for multiple murders technically it's the state's job to keep that man alive so they can carry out the
00:55:38
sentence of executing him same thing with this jailhouse it's the state's job or the County's job
00:55:46
whoever's housing these persons in jail awaiting their trial to keep them safe to the point that they can actually go
00:55:52
to trial you know because just because they're in a jail cell does not mean that they're a
00:55:58
bad person it doesn't mean that they're guilty right they haven't gone to trial yet
00:56:03
now in 2012 Todd's stepmother Eugena Willingham and his cousin Patricia Willingham filed a petition with the
00:56:13
Texas Board of Pardons and paroles for a full pardon for Todd they had the full assistance and support of the Innocence
00:56:20
Project but their petition was opposed by Stacy kaikendel who said that she did not feel that Todd deserved a pardon the
00:56:30
Texas Board of Pardons and paroles voted in March of 2014 and they did deny Todd
00:56:36
Willingham a full pardon right because like I said the system never wants to admit that it's wrong
00:56:44
it's just refuses to even even when they were so scared to uh go against the new
00:56:51
evidence that like West Memphis Three it's like well how about we have you admit that you're guilty and then we'll
00:56:58
let you out I mean some of this stuff doesn't make any sense so you're okay you're gonna
00:57:04
take three people that you're claiming killed three eight-year-old boys and then satanic Manner and you're going to
00:57:12
just say say you're guilty and we'll let you go and it's ridiculous and in this case
00:57:19
it's like this you know was this guy a piece of [ __ ] yes he was a piece of [ __ ]
00:57:23
you know and and he deserves to run in Hell anybody that puts their hand on a woman deserves to ride in hell and then
00:57:30
if he was beating her up while she's pregnant he's even worse I mean they cut off these goddamn testicles for all I
00:57:34
give [ __ ] but that doesn't mean that he set this fire it doesn't mean that he's
00:57:39
responsible for their deaths now I would argue that his cowardness is what led to their death it seems to me
00:57:47
that if the police sorry I'm getting off frustrated but it seems to me when the firefighters showed up that they were
00:57:56
able to get into the house and actually get to the girls and it seems to me that
00:58:00
when he was when he was coming to or when he was waking up because he hears his daughter that he would have had the
00:58:07
time to go in there and get his children out and he chose to be selfish because this guy seems to be a selfish selfish
00:58:14
piece of [ __ ] and you could even see one like it's his last words and it's just
00:58:20
all about him you know I I've I'm innocent of this you know why you could have just admitted you know look I'm
00:58:27
innocent of this but yeah I was a coward and I didn't save them and maybe I deserved this it's it's frustrating oh
00:58:36
yeah I I absolutely hate this case 100 it was very interesting to dive into it was very interesting to learn some of
00:58:44
the fire science if you want to call it that arson science and how it's changed throughout the years
00:58:51
the where where you hate this case and why you can't feel good about this case look man I'm not gonna lie to you we
00:59:02
presented a lot of information that says that this guy was in fact innocent after
00:59:07
presenting a lot of information that says this guy is guilty right the thing about it there's still
00:59:13
to this day people that feel one way or the other it's not it's not a uniform united front here that everybody is
00:59:21
walking arm and arm hand in hand and singing the Praises of Todd and saying he was innocent of these three murders I
00:59:29
read one interview where there was a person from the area and the way that this was stated made me
00:59:36
feel that there's probably a lot of other people from that area still to this day but that would feel the same
00:59:41
way this person's statement was I know that he's dead I know that they executed him and I wish that I could dig
00:59:49
him up and we could kill him two more times just so it would be even three murders and three executions yeah so
00:59:56
there are a lot of people that feel very strongly about this one way or another and I'll tell you what after spending
01:00:02
two weeks looking at this case and and just being eyeballs deep in this whole mess
01:00:09
I can see why people feel strongly one way or the other so I'm not even going to bother getting into that portion of
01:00:18
it where I have some some big big issues is from things at the start look let's all pretend that we are united
01:00:28
front and we all 100 believe that Willingham that Todd Willingham was innocent and I don't want a victim blame if that
01:00:37
would be the case but one you know if you give a man enough rope sometimes he hangs himself I think what
01:00:45
happened here is if he was telling the truth and he was innocent one and two he was a coward and
01:00:53
he fled the home what does he do on that first day of questioning he gives a very
01:00:58
long story of the motions and the actions that he did while still inside the home trying to save his children
01:01:07
failing to do so and then ending up on the front lawn and then I think we have a problem where
01:01:14
Not only was the deck stacked against Willingham like we said regarding the trial
01:01:20
in a sense the deck is then stacked against the fire inspectors as well because as
01:01:25
you're going through this and you're looking at everything and I know that the one fire inspector said the fire
01:01:30
talks to you the structure talks to you right and maybe there's a building that can help you if there's fires and
01:01:35
buildings talking to you anyway and I know he's just using those terms but when you're going through this and it is
01:01:43
at that time the fire science to this man's knowledge and to the other fire investigators knowledge is based off of
01:01:50
years of experience past experiences things that they have seen witnessed and worked on in the past so in a sense it
01:01:59
is a gut feeling it's one man or two men's interpretation of what they believe that they're seeing but you go
01:02:05
through in every piece every burn mark every questionable thing is a mystery to you
01:02:12
but what is not a mystery is you have this long statement from a man who says he was inside the home
01:02:21
woke up around the time that the fire seemed to start and he made an attempt to save his
01:02:27
children he he had movements and actions that were an attempt to save his children
01:02:34
ends up on the front lawn a bit of that too man as an investigator is you're taking his statements and
01:02:41
you're looking at the house and you're going what he said doesn't match up with what
01:02:48
we are finding inside this house yeah he must be lying well why would he lie because he set the fire and he killed
01:02:55
his children right so not to victim blame here if in fact Todd Willingham was a victim
01:03:03
but had he just been up front in the beginning and said look I woke up and the place was on fire I don't know what
01:03:11
the hell happened it was you know I got burned a little bit and I ran out front and then I was too chicken [ __ ] to go
01:03:17
back inside right and that that the investigation itself regardless of of fires and buildings talking to this man
01:03:25
might have gone a different way right and also I think he was pretending outside and making a scene
01:03:36
to cover up the fact that he was a coward and then that came off as disingenuous so because it was right
01:03:45
disingenuous the other thing too Captain the that is terrible you know I just referenced how
01:03:51
strongly some people in the area still feel to this day about his guilt and we even have the one juror who says it
01:04:02
wasn't a question about his guilt after I figured out that I don't really think he attempted to save his children
01:04:08
what I'm getting at is I I find I'm with you and and I'm not going to go as far to blame it on the system there were
01:04:18
some areas there were plenty of points you're absolutely right there are plenty of points and and moments in time where
01:04:24
this could have corrected itself or at least put it on freeze mode and re-examine the
01:04:31
whole thing and that didn't happen and that is horrible but when we say that our system is flawed
01:04:39
there's there's everybody knows that there's no one out there that denies that one bit and when this system was
01:04:45
set up and put in place if anybody believed that they were putting in place a Flawless system well that's a [ __ ]
01:04:52
right but what we attempt to do over time and we learn with the experience we try to
01:04:59
mold the system to get better with time and to do what we set it up to do in the
01:05:06
process what what I'm getting at here is I find that the trial itself was not a great
01:05:16
trial but that seems to be for my opinion more on the defense side it looks like the prosecution is putting
01:05:24
forth the case against this man that was presented to him by investigators and the witnesses that this prosecutor
01:05:31
interviewed minus that of Johnny Webb because that's a whole other story we don't know that portion of it 100
01:05:38
percent Johnny Webb can't be believed this prosecutor could be corrupt and there are signs pointing to that but
01:05:47
Johnny not Johnny Webb uh Todd willingham's counsel again I think they did an okay job they didn't do the best job
01:05:59
I think that given what what we have people to this day saying let's dig them up and execute him two more times that
01:06:06
to me is proof that this trial should have been moved change of venue get this thing away this community that immediate
01:06:13
area is too messed up and distraught by the death of three children to probably provide an accurate jury full
01:06:24
and the other thing too it just I mean they didn't call hardly any Witnesses I don't know it's just it's it's an
01:06:32
aggravating case because no matter how you spin it either three kids were murdered or an
01:06:39
innocent man was put to death [Music] everybody thanks for joining us in the garage spending your quality time with
01:06:58
us be kind to everybody we'll see you back here next week until then be good be kind and don't let her
01:07:14
[Music]