00:00:24
I am in recovery. That's right, making the announcement here. And good for you. In recovery, I've spent the last four
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and a half days Mhm. drinking beer and watching basketball. Oh. Recover recover that kind of recovery.
00:00:41
Yeah, it's it's it's literally going to recover until we record the show when we're drinking this week's beer. That's
00:00:48
about how long the recovery process is going to last for me because I've been consumed by the madness that is March.
00:00:56
Yeah. Which let's let's make sure that we know here that March Madness is second only
00:01:03
to Macho Madness. I don't know. It might be. It's Macho Madness is definitely second
00:01:11
to March Madness. Yeah, I I would say so. So, well, at least in the month of March.
00:01:17
So, I was so looking forward to episode 3 of The Case Against Adnan Syed last night.
00:01:24
However, still going through the madness, I was a little consumed by the tornado
00:01:31
of March Madness, caught up in it, and um I watched I had to push back and watch
00:01:38
So, you had one job and Well, and you didn't do the job. The uh the Buckeye basketball game came
00:01:44
on at like 9:00, and that's what time the the Syed show was coming on. So, it was I watched the the basketball game.
00:01:52
And then I paying you to talk about that game. I watched Well, there's some debate if anybody's
00:01:57
talk paying me to talk about off the record stuff, too. I don't think you're getting paid for
00:02:03
that, either. So, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
00:02:07
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
00:02:09
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
00:02:12
I I I I I I I I I I I I I And I thought I'll I will plop down on the couch and tune into episode 3 there.
00:02:19
However, I didn't make it through the episode. Right. But, I am extremely responsible,
00:02:24
extremely dedicated to the garage. Woke up an hour and 15 minutes early today so
00:02:30
that I could watch it again. Right. And start drinking again. No, recovery. I poured I Well, yeah. Well, that's part
00:02:39
of the recovery. I poured a little whiskey in my coffee this morning. Poured a little coffee in my whiskey
00:02:46
this morning. No, it's definitely more coffee than whiskey. No, we My buddy Morgan came
00:02:53
over. We've done this for the last two episodes because we both got sucked back into the case.
00:03:01
Yeah. Well, yeah. And so I I think there's millions out there that have. Yeah, and so his whole thing was, "Hey,
00:03:08
let's get together and actually watch the episode together and then we'll kind of bullshit."
00:03:12
And And so, we did that last week and it was a lot of fun. So, he came back over
00:03:16
this week. But, the problem is he lays on the couch like like he's po- you know, like uh Titanic.
00:03:24
Laying on When he When he wants her to lay down Like Janet Jackson on the velvet rope?
00:03:30
Yeah. Album cover? I think she Maybe she's not on the couch there, but And he takes all my pillows and messes
00:03:37
with them and he I have a nice blanket that he always messes up. Mhm. And And then, he doesn't fix it. It's
00:03:43
not like he like gets up and fixes it. He just walks out of the room. Right. Like a complete diva. And But, it's fun.
00:03:50
It's been a lot of fun to have him come over and and and shoot the [ __ ] about about the episodes. And I also think
00:03:58
we've been doing a lot of stuff where we we pause it. If we think Oh, yeah. That's fun.
00:04:03
something, we pause it. We kind of talk about it. Maybe rewind it to to double-check what they said.
00:04:09
Mhm. And it's it's definitely been pretty interesting. And he started I'm trying to find it now. Let me
00:04:17
I'm on our Twitter account cuz that's all it's on is the Twitter account. Um Well, while you're looking for that
00:04:25
on. One One This is hilarious. They started a petition on Twitter. A a This American Life petition to get
00:04:34
it so I can do a song for them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's your dream. So people have been signing up. Uh which
00:04:42
is funny cuz I'm like, wait, you're just signing me up for more work. Mhm. Um but thank you. And then
00:04:51
So Morgan started this thing. You know, he he called me and said, "Hey, I want to
00:04:56
do this thing." And it's uh it's called Discord. d i s c o r d Discord. And you can join
00:05:08
It's basically multiple True Crime Garage discussions. Okay. So it's a app. So you download the app and
00:05:17
you can actually leave text messages or audio messages, which I think sometimes we're going to pull those audio messages
00:05:25
and we'll play them on Off the Record. Mhm. Um and then we can do live chats. So we
00:05:30
did a live chat before we watched the show. Just a little bit and we just did it
00:05:36
through the live chat, but just text. And I think this Wednesday at like 6:00 or something, we're going to do a
00:05:44
hour-long live chat. Mhm. Something like that. And and we'll actually it'll just be me
00:05:51
and Morgan. It'll be him in his garage and me in my garage. Oh, so you will not have to prepare your
00:05:57
couch for I can't handle him being on my couch that much and messing it up. I work too god damn hard
00:06:06
for him to mess up my god damn couch. No, so yeah, Discord is pretty cool. We just joined
00:06:12
um about a week ago or so. Oh, cool. Awesome. Yeah, it's cool though because you you
00:06:18
state what conversations you're having so you can every week people can go on there and it's not just about discussing
00:06:24
stuff with us. They can discuss stuff, you know, with between themselves. Mhm. Uh about the cases, you know, the case
00:06:31
from last week or there's a whole discussion board of just off the record. Mhm. And and then there's also a spot where
00:06:39
you can leave um case suggestions. So Got you. pretty neat. But it's cool because you
00:06:45
can actually just leave a voicemail Mhm. and not just have to type it all out. So
00:06:51
check that out. All right, was there anything on this episode part three? I can't remember what the title was.
00:07:06
Oh. Something about justice is arbitrary. There you go. Was that it? I think so.
00:07:12
Justice is arbitrary or something like that. Well, you know what what was interesting
00:07:16
for me uh right away. And and this has been the case too with with the first episode and
00:07:22
second episode. Is that, you know, I listened to Serial so long ago that and we've covered so many cases
00:07:31
since when I listened I mean I listened to the Serial well before True Crime Garage
00:07:36
even started. Right. And I remember enjoying it so much that I I think that very shortly after I
00:07:44
finished Serial, I went back and listened to it a second time. So, where I would think that at that
00:07:51
time I felt pretty knowledgeable about the case or at least Serial's presentation of the case.
00:08:00
Now, it's been so many years removed from it that when I watch some of this I to be completely frank here, I was
00:08:08
worried that it was going to be a little boring because sometimes sometimes like Netflix or Prime or HBO
00:08:14
or some somebody will come out with something that's a case that that you or I or both of us know very well.
00:08:21
Right. And it's it's kind of an older story and they're just now getting around to doing
00:08:25
a documentary about it. And a lot of times I find that that that just kind of bores me because it's like I haven't
00:08:32
there's not much in the way of new information. Right. Regarding Regarding this so it's like
00:08:39
I've forgotten enough Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like I'm watching I'm like
00:08:44
Right. I'm like Oh, yeah. That this was going on and oh, yeah. They They They hinted about this a little bit but they
00:08:50
go into it a little bit more. I I will say this, you know, like I like I said I kind of was a little
00:08:58
I went into it with low expectations because I thought that it I might find it to be boring but it's been very good
00:09:03
and I think that each episode just keeps getting a little better for me but I don't know if that's just because I'm
00:09:10
getting sucked back into the case itself. Right. But is is there anything that jumped out to you as
00:09:17
as far as the evidence goes or anything that was presented? Well, this a lot of this episode
00:09:23
discussed the the cell phone pings and some of the phone calls and and their relationship to the timeline
00:09:32
and to Jay's story. And that was I mean that that seems to me like most of of this episode 3.
00:09:42
And I I found that fascinating once again and forgot I kind of forgot that portion
00:09:48
of of the case from listening to it a long time there's been a lot of people that have
00:09:53
been either on Twitter or I've seen there's some stuff on Facebook that say that
00:09:58
once you watch uh now I'm going to correct myself. Once you watch episode 3 there's been a lot of if you watch
00:10:09
episode 3 that will change the way that you look at this case forever. I've seen that posted by multiple
00:10:14
people. And this is before episode 3 came out. So I don't know if they were given the material early. Sometimes when
00:10:24
there's a documentary series they'll contact us and say do you want all six episodes we'll send them to you.
00:10:30
Mhm. So I don't know if that's the case here, but I've also seen that the bombshell
00:10:35
doesn't happen in episode 3 that it's actually episode 4 and I've seen almost identical post that say
00:10:43
once you see episode 4 you'll never look at this case again. Mhm. Well, I think I I and and Matt saw the and Morgan saw
00:10:52
the same thing. So while we're watching it we're like is the bombshell going to happen
00:10:58
Yeah. in this episode or is it going to happen in the next episode? Well, I don't obviously know what the next
00:11:05
episode is, but I I think the bombshell started happening here. Okay. we have multiple situations where Robbie has
00:11:14
given all this information to a very sophisticated very intelligent lawyer that goes through the whole timeline.
00:11:21
Well, you can see that you know, why was Jay interviewed multiple times? Mhm. If they got the story correct the first
00:11:29
time, they wouldn't call him back in for an interview. But the problem is that is the cops
00:11:35
didn't have their data right, or they would write something down wrong. So then when Jay is saying, "Well, I was
00:11:43
here during that time that I made this call." Mhm. That because they wrote stuff down
00:11:50
wrong, that that basically blew their whole case. Mhm. So then they had to go back and
00:11:57
interview him again for the second time. Okay, now we have the corrections. Now we're going to get you to correct
00:12:04
this stuff. Oh, okay, we messed up again. Now we got to go back and we got to correct the story.
00:12:12
Mhm. So you want to know if he's lying, he's definitely lying. Why is he lying? People That's been the
00:12:21
question I think from the time Serial came out. Well, he's lying because the cops need
00:12:27
his story to make sense with their data their data. Mhm. And that's proven, I believe,
00:12:35
um no doubt in my mind it's proven in this docu-series. So you have that happening, then you
00:12:42
also have that there's multiple cases where these detectives were threatening witnesses
00:12:52
to testify to basically throw somebody under the bus. And the idea that possibly Stephanie
00:13:03
and Jay got busted with something. Mhm. That's the rumor I've been hearing lately. It's not just Jay, but something
00:13:11
involving Stephanie as well. That's his girlfriend at the time. That they got caught with drugs or
00:13:17
something. Not his friend Jen, but his girlfriend Stephanie. And that um And again, that could be a possibility
00:13:27
too. What was Jen um I actually believe Jen, but we'll get back to Jen in a second.
00:13:35
So, the idea is that Jay, Stephanie, maybe it's just Jay. They're they find some drugs on him. He
00:13:43
decides, "Well, I'll give you a bigger story. If I give you this story about Adnan
00:13:49
killing Hae, then you're going to let me go with this stuff." Now, what he admits to could get him some
00:13:59
time that he'd have to serve. So, it's crazy to me that you have Adnan that is sentenced a 17-year-old at the
00:14:07
time of the crime is sentenced to life plus 30. And a guy that helped him move the body
00:14:14
and bury the body that's 19 at the time of the crime gets nothing. Gets time served.
00:14:23
Well, and if you believe his story or at least parts of Jay's story, not only did he help dispose of the
00:14:31
murder victim, but he also says that he he knew that this may happen before it happened, the murder.
00:14:39
Right. And on top of that, then he also moved evidence. He moved the car. Right.
00:14:44
Helped move the car. And so then people then the question becomes, "Well, how did Jay know where
00:14:50
Hae Min Lee's car was?" Well, if the cops are telling you where you were at when you made certain calls,
00:14:57
and that's factually incorrect, then it's not that far of a leap to assume that the cops knew where the car
00:15:04
was, and they got Jay to tell them where the car was. Mhm. It's not that far of a leap.
00:15:10
Mhm. So, there's multiple But, the just so we're clear, and and and and for my own sake,
00:15:20
the vehicle was not removed from that spot until after Jay tells them where it is.
00:15:26
Right. Yeah. Regardless of how he knows the information, the vehicle sat there until
00:15:32
after they claim they get the information from Jay. Yeah, and there's some evidence as far
00:15:38
as the license plate being run. And then the question becomes, you know, was the license plate run by
00:15:46
the police officers cuz they're just looking for the missing car? Mhm. And that's why they ran the plates, or
00:15:53
did they actually run the plates and and and that's how they found the car? So, there's some speculation there.
00:16:01
And he says, Jay says, or according to his statement, I'm going to get heated by the end of
00:16:06
this conversation, for sure, 100%. So, according to his statement, he says that they moved
00:16:14
Hae Min Lee's vehicle relatively quickly after the murder, after the body disposal.
00:16:21
Right. Right. And so, it sat there, it would have sat there for close to 6 weeks.
00:16:27
Something around that time frame. I did, you know what I did really like in, I think it was in episode 2, not in
00:16:33
episode 3, but I did really like when those guys interviewed, it was a a lady that had lived in the neighborhood for a
00:16:41
very long time. I think she said she moved in there in like in the '80s or the '70s.
00:16:46
Right. And she was saying, um, you know, they asked her something to the effect of,
00:16:51
"Would it be uncommon for vehicles to sit in this area for an extended period of time?" And I
00:16:58
think she asked them to like clarify, "What do you mean extended period of time? Like a like a week or 2 weeks?"
00:17:03
And they were like, "No, like we're talking like 4 to 6 weeks and without you noticing it." And she says
00:17:09
emphatically, she says, "No, that wouldn't have happened. I would have called me or this other lady who kind of
00:17:16
I love I love when you get the the the a lady or two or you get an old-timer or if it's my neighborhood, it's me, you
00:17:26
know, like the you get you get the the person that kind of elects themselves to be the sheriff of that that little
00:17:32
neighborhood. And I love that she's like, "No, me and this this other woman." And I don't
00:17:38
recall the either of their names. Right. Me and this other woman, we would have talked about that. We would have spoke
00:17:43
about that. One of us would have called so-and-so Which you know some authority to come out and look at
00:17:49
the car. Which gives you reason to believe that it wasn't there for 6 weeks. Right. Right. And I
00:17:54
And so if it wasn't there hold on, but if it wasn't there for 6 weeks and it was moved, then we don't we have no
00:18:00
evidence, you know, then Jay's story is [ __ ] about the car Jay's Jay could still have
00:18:07
very good knowledge about the vehicle, but he's but that's not the story he told to police or that the or that
00:18:14
police and Jay agreed on. Right. But I think before you have to figure out why would Jay lie. Okay, we
00:18:21
have these detectives that are notoriously known for, you know, trying to pin something on somebody and then
00:18:28
get getting them to confess to something. You have a 19-year-old that is not lawyering up.
00:18:34
He had every right to, never did, probably cuz he didn't think he could afford it.
00:18:39
They were able to manipulate that situation. You have documented proof that his story is inconsistent and
00:18:46
they're getting him to change his story. Mhm. Because it didn't line up. And look,
00:18:54
they basically get him to say that he's in a certain location at the time and why are you there? He's like, "Well, I'm
00:18:59
not really for sure why I was there, but I know I was there because that's what your call log says." Well, when you
00:19:05
wrote down the call log wrong, then then you got him to tell you the wrong part of town.
00:19:12
And so then once you realize, "Oh [ __ ] that part's wrong cuz they went back, you know, with a fine-tooth comb and
00:19:19
they're like, wait a second, that part of the story is wrong cuz we wrote down the wrong location. Uh we need to fix
00:19:25
that. And then we got to call Jay back in. And then anytime he you know, the these little knocks on the on the desk
00:19:33
and stuff that people talked about before. Um and I guess a lot of this information as
00:19:39
far as the timeline goes and and Jay's motivation for lying, I mean, we know he's a liar in in general. But you can
00:19:48
lie about everything but be telling the truth about one thing. We kind of talked
00:19:52
about that last week. But in this situation, you know, I I don't even know if you'd
00:19:58
call him a liar. We have the cops, look, this to me is it's [ __ ] disgusting. Your job is you know, their job is to
00:20:11
serve and protect the community. Their job is not to create fictitious [ __ ] stories. And when you have him confess
00:20:23
and then you go back through this this data, right? Mhm. And if they would have actually
00:20:29
understood the data themselves at the time, they wouldn't have tried to make it fit their narrative. But they thought
00:20:36
that this cell phone records and these cell phone pings, this is science. And people can't dispute science.
00:20:46
Mhm. Well, when the cover sheet states that any incoming the only calls that would
00:20:52
be um the only calls that are reliable I believe come from incoming calls. Right?
00:21:02
Mhm. Or is it the other way around, outgoing calls? I I thought it would now now here's where
00:21:08
I'm getting confused. I thought it was outgoing and the reason why I say that is because I thought it
00:21:15
had something to do with the billing where if they they want to track your phone,
00:21:21
let's say, to be out of its area. You know, so they can charge you more. But I guess that would work for incoming
00:21:29
as well. So pardon the confusion here for for those listening. There's probably somebody screaming at their
00:21:35
their phone right now. Um Yeah, I'll go ahead and message Morgan just to see if he can
00:21:39
See what he recalls. Yeah, which calls aren't reliable. But either way, there's a cover sheet that
00:21:46
you know, they they claim through the documentary that it was lost or whatever. I don't know if it was lost or
00:21:52
if it was Or the person didn't read it. Or if this lawyer just didn't read it, but
00:21:57
right away, their their argument, this testimony, you can the incoming calls are not reliable.
00:22:04
It's the outgoing calls that are reliable. Okay. Because you're the one making the call.
00:22:10
Right. And they want to know if you're quote unquote out of your area. Like it it's for billing purposes.
00:22:15
Right. But now, they also prove that this was never So now you have Jay's story and they go through Jay's story and his
00:22:22
confession with a map and they show you all the pings and they show you how it lines up in trial and then they put an
00:22:29
expert on the stand that says, "Yep, that's how this technology works." Well, he didn't know that the incoming calls
00:22:37
weren't reliable. Mhm. And he claims that if he he he signed an affidavit that said, "If I would have
00:22:45
known this information, I would not have testified." And then goes to the family of Adnan
00:22:50
says, "Sorry. It's my fault. Your son's in jail." Mhm. Now, I'm not arguing guilt or innocence
00:22:56
here. I'm just saying factually we know that the cops fabricated they fabricated a
00:23:02
story. We know that Jay lied and went along with it. Mhm. And then on top of that, we have their
00:23:09
expert witness saying Yeah, that's [ __ ] So, those are big. On top of that, before all this happens,
00:23:20
you got the birthday wrong. Mhm. He's born in '81. I was '81 as well. They put '80.
00:23:29
That means they can hold him without bail. Mhm. And they did so. And they did so on a typo.
00:23:37
Now again, I'm not so upset about the typo. I'm upset that there's a ruling made
00:23:43
because of a typo. This is not you know, this is not getting your license renewed. This is
00:23:51
not getting some permit to have a fire in your backyard. This is not some building inspection.
00:23:57
Right. This is somebody's life on the line. And on top of that, you have a murdered
00:24:01
victim and their justice for them is on the line. And you [ __ ] up on every [ __ ] corner.
00:24:09
It's it's appalling. This is How is this a justice system at all? You can't even get the guy's birthday right.
00:24:19
And so, and the the malicious lying, like uh well, we think he's a flight flight risk because
00:24:28
there's numerous uh of these cases going on where uh somebody that's Muslim is helped by the Muslim community to to
00:24:38
um basically abandon ship and they uh ship them over to uh Pakistan. Mhm. You have prosecutors that their job is
00:24:49
not to say [ __ ] The their job is to to argue with truth. And if that was true that we had
00:24:57
hundreds and hundreds of Muslims that had relationship issues that were killing their exes or their spouses or
00:25:06
whatever and they weren't going on trial because their community surrounded them and
00:25:13
protected them and and fled them out of the country. If we had hundreds of these
00:25:19
cases then then you're arguing the truth and yes, I don't care if he's 17 or not he
00:25:25
doesn't get bail because he might bail the country. But that's not true. It happened once.
00:25:35
And it but it's it's the fact that the cops maliciously would tell stories. The cops
00:25:42
would maliciously tell lies. The and the prosecutors would do so. It's like how are you how are you
00:25:49
supposed to fight a fair fight when they're they're not fighting fair? I mean it's absolutely appalling.
00:25:57
Well, and I think it's a little unfair too. I I get that they're you know, bring up
00:26:03
the his his family's background. I get it. But it it seems slightly unfair that they're you know, they do point out hey
00:26:12
he No, this guy Adnan he's an American citizen. You know, it's not like he was born in
00:26:18
another country and moved here. Yeah, we have a guy that does not have a rap sheet. He doesn't have a criminal
00:26:24
record. Right. We have a kid mind you a kid. I'd even say if he's 18 yes, he's a
00:26:30
technically adult. Yes, he can vote. Um he he can buy cigarettes. Can't buy booze, right?
00:26:39
Mhm. He's just not a adult even at 18. But at 17 definitely not an adult. Right.
00:26:46
You can try him as adult and I understand that that's how the system works and you can do that.
00:26:51
But this no no criminal past and on top of that we have tons of people coming forward as a
00:26:59
character witness to say this is a good guy. And not just the Muslim community. We're
00:27:04
talking about students he went to school with. Right. That could have been prejudiced against
00:27:09
him for his religion because he was pretty religious. Right? At least wore that on his sleeve
00:27:16
enough. Wore it on his sleeve enough where you could be prejudiced against him if that's what kind of person you
00:27:22
were. Mhm. And you have several classmates coming forward and he's a part of this honor program.
00:27:30
Elite academics. Right. You know, this the sports, you know, every time they talk about this former
00:27:37
football player, I'm like, "God, I would have loved to play against Adnan in high
00:27:41
school. I would have smashed him." This is not some super athletic looking dude. You know what I mean?
00:27:50
That's what cracks me up every time they they Have you noticed that? They keep mentioning that like
00:27:55
former former football athlete. I mean, that's the picture they have. That's the news clip they or the sound
00:28:01
clip they have. but but it's like uh that's a lot different than hearing like former honor student.
00:28:09
You know what I mean? Mhm. Little different. But it's But every time they say former
00:28:14
football star and they show his picture and he has these little tiny uh chicken arms. Like, "What
00:28:20
What position did he play?" Um But yeah, it's just so frustrating when you see that
00:28:26
and yes the system gives you the the right to defend yourself and to find these inaccuracies. And what hap-
00:28:37
what has happened is in this case is I think they found a pathway to victory and a pathway to uh indict somebody on
00:28:46
these crimes and to get this off their board and they went with Jay and they fabricated the truth and they went after
00:28:53
it. And I think they just thought it would be swept under the rug. They got the win. He goes to He goes
00:29:02
He's sentenced to life plus 30. And we got him. Case closed. We didn't have to look into anybody
00:29:11
else. We didn't have to look into any other options. And that's it. But but there's also a chance
00:29:20
that they believed that they were convicting the right guy. You know, there's there's also that
00:29:25
chance as well. And the the guy said it best the guy that actually worked the one
00:29:32
detective that worked the missing person case actually worked Hae Min Lee's case
00:29:36
and then got on board when they were going after Jay to get a confession. He said, you
00:29:42
know, he's not an informant, he's a witness. Mhm. And that's what you have in a murder
00:29:47
case and it's like No. When you are changing the narrative and he's following along, that's
00:29:54
informative. That's not a witness. A witness tells you what they saw, their truth.
00:30:02
And that's it. But you are taking this data from these cell phone pings and changing this
00:30:07
person's story. So the cell phone technology itself would have altered the case and again,
00:30:13
they show you he's awarded a new trial. So basically, he goes from convicted killer to now he's just in jail and he's
00:30:20
not convicted of the crime. But what we do know now is that they claim that he's not going to get a new
00:30:27
trial and his conviction is going to stand. Which I don't understand. I mean, you
00:30:31
see that at the end where the lawyer says well, now we got to fight to keep this
00:30:38
ruling upheld. Uh the fact that it's overturned is it's sickening. Because you know, you don't have to be a smart
00:30:47
man or woman to sit down and look at these cell phone records, listen to that story and see how that's changed and to
00:30:55
go, they fabricated the story. And on top of that, we have all these other calls that they're claiming Jay
00:31:04
was certain places or Adnan was certain places and this is what convicts a 17-year-old and that information was not
00:31:12
accurate. The the fact you know, you can't 100% for certain say that Adnan and Jay were in Leakin Park that night
00:31:22
based off the call log anymore. Right. You can't. Because the information is in front of
00:31:29
you. Like you could assume, I mean that's kind of what me and Morgan talked about was
00:31:34
okay, maybe it's not reliable. That doesn't mean that it's not accurate. It doesn't mean that they weren't there.
00:31:42
It doesn't mean that they weren't in the park at that time. It just means that you can't point to this piece of
00:31:48
information and say that proves that they were there. Yeah, so uh, okay. The the other thing though, just to
00:31:55
play, you know, both sides of the of the courtroom here. Well, I'm going to go to the other side
00:32:00
too in a second. Okay. The other thing though too and I and I don't and it does appear that the
00:32:05
way that they got Jay's story to change to what they wanted, appears to me that they are trying to make their story fit
00:32:14
or his story fit the evidence that they believe they have. But to argue the other side of that, you
00:32:24
know, Jay would not be will not be the first nor the last person to be suspected of
00:32:32
either murder or assisting in some form or fashion of a murder to lie to police the first time they talk or the second
00:32:40
time or the third time or the fourth time. Um Yeah. I Again, I'm not I'm not coming to
00:32:46
anyone I don't want to I don't want to sound like I'm coming to anyone's defense there, but I do think that
00:32:51
that's something that should be thought of um or or at least taken into to factor at some point.
00:32:59
Yes. Factor that in. We we know Jay's a liar. Okay, we know that. We know he's not a good dude.
00:33:09
We know that. Well, right. When it comes to telling the truth, No, but but but what I what I'm saying
00:33:15
is that's that's fine. And I I understand that the idea that the first confession might not be the full truth.
00:33:22
That you might get more truth as the story comes out. Okay. I think you got that when he's basically like, "Yeah, I
00:33:28
didn't help him." And then it turns into, "I helped bury the body." I think that's where you get
00:33:34
Mhm. But what you don't get is a cop writing down that Jay or Adnan's phone would
00:33:41
have been in this location at the time and they wrote it down wrong. And so the one of their one of his
00:33:48
confessions, he says, "Well, then where you at at this time when this call comes
00:33:53
in?" He goes, "Well, I must have been so and so place, right?" And they're like, "Yeah, that's right."
00:33:58
Because that's what the call log says. Mhm. But because they wrote it down wrong,
00:34:01
now we got to go back and make him change it. Mhm. And we've been Make sure we got it right down
00:34:06
correctly. And that's my disappointment. It's like I end up the cops didn't look more into
00:34:12
the idea that that certain calls aren't reliable. So, if they're not reliable, we let's just not assume anything.
00:34:19
Because when you're talking about reasonable doubt, if something the the idea We have these calls that
00:34:27
put Jay and Adnan in Leakin Park, right? Mhm. But we know from the service provider
00:34:35
that those cell phone pings aren't reliable. Right. So, as a jury what you would be instructed to is if if
00:34:44
there's a point of evidence that could point to guilty or innocence, it is your job to have that lean on the side of
00:34:54
innocence. Right? Mhm. That is your job. That's the whole innocent until proven guilty.
00:35:02
That's the reasonable doubt. So, you can't then go into the jury room and go But it's also being presented to the
00:35:10
jury in a form that this is science. This is What we're showing you today is science.
00:35:16
Right. So, whether that cover letter is wrong or it wasn't shared with people, it
00:35:24
should have been argued by the defense and and on top of that, the expert should have said
00:35:29
that's that's not reliable. We can't go off that. Mhm. And that was never presented to the
00:35:36
jury. Mhm. So, again, then you get a guy again, guilty or innocent you have a guy that
00:35:42
they made up stories and now he has a serving a life plus 30. So, I said I want to go on the other side
00:35:51
for a second. And so in short, it turns out the expert it was not an expert. Right. And he he then signs an affidavit
00:35:58
saying I would be never there. didn't have an understanding of how that science air quotes
00:36:04
worked. Right. Because all he was looking at is that all the incoming calls and outgoing
00:36:09
calls, they're all reliable. And then you read the data. So, that's what he did.
00:36:14
Mhm. But then once you just throw in that wrench that hey uh these calls aren't reliable.
00:36:21
Um incoming calls aren't reliable. Then then you have to throw out any incoming call. And And so, what they did was um I
00:36:31
can't remember the girl's name. Uh it's not Jen. But, the girl's house that they claim
00:36:38
that they were at and then they show her, "Well, you were in school, you know, on Wednesday nights."
00:36:45
And so, it couldn't happen on that day because the class you know, the girl even said, "I could
00:36:52
have skipped class. I could have you know, not paid attention." Right. And what they were showing to her was a
00:36:58
was a class that was only like you could take some of these college classes where it's only like six
00:37:04
classes. But, they're 3 hours each class or whatever. Mhm. And it's a way to like kind of
00:37:10
fast-track a class. Right. was one of those types of classes, so it would have been a class like you miss
00:37:16
once, you fail the class. Yes. Yeah. It's going to be very difficult because you've missed a large portion of the
00:37:24
curriculum. Right. So, they were saying, "Look, that that these events that you're
00:37:29
remembering couldn't have happened at these times." But again, what were they trying to line
00:37:35
up? The cops. Incoming calls. Mhm. They're saying, "Well, we know that you were here and that you we know that Jay
00:37:43
was there and we know Adnan was high as a [ __ ] at your house and they got some incoming calls." And then and
00:37:50
then the cops saying, "Yeah, I remember talking to Adnan." And then he got all nervous and and and this girl saying,
00:37:56
"Adnan was high and he was all nervous because he had to talk to the cops." Right.
00:38:03
Now, again, did that happen on the 13th when Hae went missing? Doesn't look like it did because she
00:38:10
would have been at school. But, again, they're trying to line up these incoming calls that might not be
00:38:18
reliable. So, if they're not reliable, that doesn't even put her put them in the
00:38:23
area, but because it was in her area, they had to get an eyewitness that said, "Yeah, we hung I hung out with them."
00:38:30
Right. So, so I think she doesn't even know. And I feel really bad for these people that
00:38:38
get involved because first of all, it's weeks of her going missing, and then it's trying to backtrack.
00:38:48
Mhm. And I think that's really confusing for a lot of people, like in this case. Not
00:38:54
people looking on the outside of the case, but people actually on the inside. Cuz let let me just play a little
00:39:00
devil's advocate, right? I'll just go into the Adnan's guilty camp for a second.
00:39:07
Well, before you get to that, I mean, that's what Sarah Koenig did so well. I believe it
00:39:13
was the very first episode of Serial where she's pointing out how difficult it is for
00:39:18
most people to remember certain events within the last week, 10 days, 3 weeks, 6 weeks.
00:39:25
And I love how people are like, "Well, Adnan doesn't remember everything, so therefore he's guilty."
00:39:31
Well, right. Their right. Their their belief, if you go under that thought, it's he's conveniently not remembering
00:39:38
because he has something to hide. Right. Yeah. And so, so the Asia situation. Mhm.
00:39:50
And they were talking again, we have another prosecutor that lies saying that that
00:39:55
she recanted her statements and said that she was forced to make these statements from
00:40:01
Adnan's family. What was her response to that? She was like, "That's bullshit." And she
00:40:06
actually wrote another affidavit saying Saying the same thing she stated originally. That I saw I believe I saw
00:40:12
him that day in the library after school. Right. And again, the thing that becomes strange is when
00:40:21
the cops go, "Well, we think that she was killed during this time period." I don't think she was killed during that
00:40:26
time period, personally. I don't think it was like such a small window. But that's a that's the time that the
00:40:32
cops came up with. So, well, now you have this girl saying, "Well, I saw you in the library." Well, if if she saw him
00:40:38
at the library about 2:15 to 2:30, there's your alibi. She He's not killing her at 2:36 in the Best Buy parking lot.
00:40:49
Or or making the come get me phone call at 2:36. Right. Right. Right. So, if the the key to their story
00:40:57
and the key to Adnan's alibi really revolves around that call to come get me at 2:36. So, if he could if there was a
00:41:07
way or if Adnan could prove that he was not in the parking lot of Best Buy calling
00:41:14
Jay at 2:36 or not in that area, not in the parking lot of Best Buy for 15 20 minutes before that, then he has to be
00:41:23
innocent according to the detectives' narrative, the prosecution's narrative that she was killed and he was picked up
00:41:30
around that time. Here's one thing I've always wondered about the and I know that that it's tough to lay out the
00:41:38
timeline of the movements of Adnan that day cuz he doesn't recall. He And it The
00:41:43
thing is, too, when we say don't recall, some of it may be as simple as it was a pretty regular day for this guy
00:41:51
and it's kind of meshing and jelling and getting all mashed up with other regular
00:41:56
days. Yeah. And the thing that I've wondered, though, is there a way Do we know for certain again, forgive
00:42:04
me, I haven't listened to Serial in years. I mean, I listened to it when it first came out. And
00:42:11
Oh, What do we know regarding Hae Min Lee's timeline? Is there a Is there any chance
00:42:17
that she could have left school earlier than what everyone is saying? Well, that
00:42:22
Because if she did, that throws in a whole That throws a big wrench into the whole timeline.
00:42:27
I think that's a possibility. Because under that Under that scenario, Jay could have killed her.
00:42:33
When he's out riding around in at Was it Jay's car or his or Adnan's car? Adnan's car.
00:42:38
So, Adnan's car with Adnan's phone. Yeah. He could have And so, the motive for Jay people think
00:42:45
that there was rumors that Jay was cheating on his girlfriend Stephanie and that Hae
00:42:51
actually knew. And that Hae Min Lee was actually going to tell Stephanie. threatened to to out him.
00:42:58
Right, and that would be his motive to kill her. I don't know how much I believe that.
00:43:03
Um cuz I think this is a strangulation. This is personal. I think you know, to to me, it comes down to
00:43:16
Adnan. He was the ex-boyfriend. We see that all the time. The current boyfriend, Don, or like I
00:43:25
like to call Donnie. Well, And then we have Jay. These are because he is confessing to the crime
00:43:35
and a possible motive. So, those are the three that we kind of know of through the story.
00:43:41
But is there some random? Very possible. It's very possible. So, I thought with episode three, and
00:43:49
it's not that I read this anywhere or anything like that. This is really just my own speculation going into it. And I
00:43:55
did too what you and Morgan were talking about about there being a a bombshell or
00:44:01
something really big, significant uh that they would present to us. I did read an article as well, maybe two
00:44:07
articles that said something similar that that that is going to occur in episode four.
00:44:13
Right. So, that was was confusing because a lot of people that the stuff that I was kind of blown away by, a lot
00:44:19
of people were saying that was on undisclosed the podcast which I just never um Well, the thing that
00:44:26
time to get into. The thing that gets tricky about that is the articles that I remember reading
00:44:30
about it, they're discussing this big batch of interesting information that's going to come out in episode
00:44:38
four, but all those articles came out and I well I read them, you know, a day or two before watching
00:44:44
episode three. So, you know, you if if if you're not paying attention to the number, you kind of just assume ooh,
00:44:50
that's going to be on the next one. Right. Um but regarding what you were getting
00:44:55
into there a little bit is I kind of anticipated that we were going to get more into the Don stuff on episode
00:45:03
three, but that didn't happen, right? Like Did I miss something? Am I hard of watching?
00:45:08
Yeah, they they didn't talk about Don at all and I don't even remember his name being
00:45:12
mentioned in episode three. Right, he's been you know, not brought up at a lot he hasn't been brought up a lot, but
00:45:19
that makes me wonder with these private investigators looking into the case with
00:45:24
these other lawyers looking into the case, is there something that they know Or is that what we're going to get in
00:45:29
episode four? Possibly. It's possibly what we'll get in four or did they check out this alibi
00:45:35
that never made sense and and did they find out that it's truthful and then they have to back off of this idea? I
00:45:41
mean, because the to me it's about finding the truth. So, you take Asia's claim and again, here's a high school
00:45:49
student. She claims that she knows she stayed at her boyfriend's house that night because there was a snowstorm and
00:45:55
they didn't have school the next couple days. That's the that's the big wrench in this whole thing is that the girl
00:46:01
goes missing and then they have snow storms. Mhm. So, there is a gap before they even get
00:46:09
back to school to start going she's missing. Her friend's talking about her missing.
00:46:15
Mhm. That's the That's really like if that doesn't happen, we we're going to know some [ __ ] We'd
00:46:21
know way more [ __ ] because people would be going, "You know she's missing? Oh,
00:46:25
she's not at school today? What the flying fuck?" You know what I mean? Well, then people are going to start talking
00:46:32
and then people are going to start hearing stories and we'd get way more out of the people. But, because
00:46:38
there was multiple snow storms and then the power's going out and all this shit's happening and they're missing
00:46:43
school and so you keep having these lapses of time and I think because of those lapses of
00:46:50
time of friends not seeing each other, it disrupts the conversation of where could she be and if something bad
00:46:58
happened to her, who could have done this? Right. So, it's like this perfect storm.
00:47:05
So, but like I said, let me play a little devil's advocate here. Let's say that Asia
00:47:13
I mean, how do we know she's telling the truth? Well, let me let me say this real quick.
00:47:18
Okay. Sorry. Um but you know, we we have said this on the show several times. I've said it in
00:47:26
regards to eyewitness statements and accounts of past events that the one thing that I do like about
00:47:34
Asia's story is there are some very specific points to her story. It's not just "Oh, I think I saw Adnan after
00:47:42
school somewhere." No, it's "I saw him in the library and it would have been between this time and this time and when
00:47:49
I saw him, we spoke about his relationship with Hae and how it was over and he just wants her to be happy
00:47:56
and I I know that I didn't get picked up until this time because I was angry at my boyfriend because he was late. And
00:48:03
then the next day we had a snow day. Right. You know, it's it's all it's very it's
00:48:07
very detailed. It's a very detailed account. Right, but this wasn't written a couple
00:48:11
days after Hae went missing. No, I know. This is after Adnan is arrested. Right, and that's why I think some
00:48:20
people don't believe it. Right. So, let's just go on the side that he's guilty. Okay, so I can dismiss
00:48:26
that, right? Oh, he is. I knew he did it. Well, I'm just saying I can I can argue
00:48:29
that away. Okay. She's misremembering. Right, or or making it up. Right. And now not Jen, but the other
00:48:37
friend, I can't remember her name. But the one that they went to the house that night and they talked.
00:48:44
Well, she's misremembering, too. Right? We have evidence of that. Mhm. Now, that would go in my favor of him
00:48:51
being guilty, right? But Or at least not having an alibi. No, no, I'm talking about
00:48:59
the the the the call that they get from the police officers where they're over at some girl's house that Jay knows,
00:49:06
that Adnan doesn't know, and he's super high. Right. What I'm saying is their defense last night in in episode 3
00:49:17
kind of proved that that probably didn't happen. Mhm. So, that doesn't go good for my he's
00:49:22
guilty case. Right? Now, Jay what what did they prove last night? Jay lies. But on top of that, that the cops lied
00:49:33
and created a narrative. They proved that last night. Mhm. That doesn't go good if I believe
00:49:41
Adnan's guilty, right? Right. But the thing that happens at the end of the episode is what I find very
00:49:48
interesting. Okay. And I believe somebody was arguing with me on Twitter and they were saying Rabia
00:49:55
is one of the executive producers. That might be true. I I don't know for sure. I I didn't look at the ending
00:50:03
credits. But they give you all this information at the end, right? They give you all
00:50:08
this information through the whole episode. The cops did this wrong. They lied about this. Jay lied about that. Uh
00:50:14
they didn't get any time served. Jay was appointed attorney pro bono, you know, probably from the DA.
00:50:23
Like all this like [ __ ] shady stuff, right? It starts making it look like Adnan's
00:50:31
innocent. Right. Like they're like we have all these people building a case against
00:50:36
Adnan because there wasn't already one to be one to pursue. Right. And then we have this situation
00:50:42
where Jay says that Jen picked him up on the 13th from his house. Jen says no, on the 13th I picked him up
00:50:51
at a different location. location. She says like on a street corner somewhere, right?
00:50:57
No, it was like in a mall. At a mall, okay. So, because right after and here's what's interesting, right
00:51:05
after she gets he gets in the car is when he says Adnan killed Hae Min Hae Min Lee.
00:51:14
And then they go to some dumpster around the corner. And she's like that happened on the
00:51:20
13th. Mhm. So, that's that's her story. So, we got a change in Jay's story. We have the police altering all this
00:51:31
stuff, right? Right. But we have this girl, which is high as a [ __ ] kite, on the
00:51:40
documentary. I think there's I think she's on something at least. I I will say this though, Jen seems
00:51:47
genuine to me. Like Right. Right. Right. Okay. So, but here's the big point. just a gut feeling.
00:51:53
She says, "Look, I mean, you got Yes, did the cops lie? Sure. Did the Are the cell phone pings wrong? Did we not Did
00:52:02
Jay and Adnan not go to this girl's house that night?" Who knows, right? She even says, "I
00:52:10
don't know what to believe anymore." Right. But then she reiterates that on the 13th
00:52:15
of January, she picks up Jay and he gets in the car and says, "Adnan killed Hae Min Lee."
00:52:20
Mhm. Now, his story changes later that he helped bury the body. He didn't tell the her that that night,
00:52:27
but that's what she claims. So, after all this stuff and all this smoke that's thrown at you,
00:52:34
basically, the last impression you get is, well, if Jen is telling the truth, then none of that other stuff matters.
00:52:44
Because why would Jay on December or Why would Jay on January 13th, the day Hae Min Lee goes missing, why
00:52:53
would he tell Jen that Adnan killed her? There's only two reasons. There's only two reasons, right? Either
00:53:01
Adnan did it as he's saying or Jay did it. Right. Or I guess or they did it together,
00:53:07
um which is is somewhat what the the story is, anyway. Right. But, so that that that's pretty
00:53:13
freaking damning though, don't you think? Like, if you if if I'm Robbie on I'm a the executive producer, that's not
00:53:20
the last taste in your mouth I want to leave on episode 3. Mhm. That well, none of that [ __ ] really
00:53:27
matters because if Jen is telling the truth, that And that's what her statements were to
00:53:32
the cops. Right. Was, "Hey, January 13th." Right. No No matter how much the police
00:53:40
got Jay to change his story to go along with what they wanted his story to fit the evidence.
00:53:47
Right. Regardless of that taking place weeks later. Yeah. If If Jen is being fully honest, if Jen
00:53:53
is telling us 100% the truth that that night on the 13th, Jay jumped in her car and says, Adnan
00:54:00
killed Hae Min Lee. Or Adnan killed Hae. Right. Then Then there's very few possibilities
00:54:08
that are left. Right. And that to me is like I've always really I've always really
00:54:15
thought that portion of her story super super important, obviously as you just pointed out. And then the other thing
00:54:22
too is is the the car. Hae Min Lee's vehicle. If If you believe Jay, If you believe
00:54:31
believe Jay, if you believe that he provided the information regarding the location of her vehicle to the police,
00:54:38
then again, that leads you to only three outcomes. Either Adnan killed, Jay killed, or they both did it.
00:54:45
Right. And And that's why it was so important for the police to say to Jay, "Well, we
00:54:51
need you to tell us where her car is." Probably for multiple reasons. One, he's told you multiple stories. Regardless if
00:54:58
he's Regardless what's going on that we can't see because you didn't videotape it, you
00:55:04
know, going on behind the scenes, let's say, as you get to his final story. Regardless of that,
00:55:11
they're probably saying, "Well, we need you to give us something that we don't already know." And if so, one, that
00:55:18
could be where the vehicle is. And two, you can't lead us to her body, so the next best thing would be to lead us to
00:55:25
her vehicle. Right, cuz you can't you can't lead her to the body because the body was found.
00:55:30
And you'll see that a lot of times in these criminal cases, and we've talked about it on many cases that we've
00:55:36
covered. usually when they get a confession, right away they want the killer to lead them to the body. Because
00:55:43
if for some reason under any technicality at all, they can get that confession removed from the final trial,
00:55:51
then the police can come back and the prosecution can come back and go, "Yeah, well we had to throw out your confession
00:55:56
because of this, this, and the other thing, but later that day or first thing the next
00:56:01
morning, you let us to the victim's body. So, how do you explain explain that? Right.
00:56:08
So, me and Morgan are sitting in in the garage thinking, "Well, yeah, okay, you throw all this
00:56:18
stuff at us and it's a bunch of piled dog [ __ ] and that doesn't seem like the justice system is
00:56:24
fair, but what we do about this Jen thing, right? Cuz like you said, if if she's telling
00:56:32
the truth, then there's not too many options. Right. And Adnan's involved in two of the
00:56:38
three. But then that started making me think, "There's been discrepancies all along on
00:56:45
when the police first talked to Jay." Yeah. Now they claim that, you know, the first
00:56:51
time they talked to him is when he confessed. Really? Is that how it went down? Is this private investigator that did
00:56:58
all this stuff and knew that you made contact with Jay before this? Weeks before this? Weeks
00:57:04
before he confesses to the crime? And you're going to tell me that you talked to Jay,
00:57:13
uh you find the body, that you didn't find the car? I mean, we know Jay's a liar, but we also know
00:57:22
that the cops are lying and that the DA is lying to just try to win. They're not trying to get to the truth,
00:57:30
they're just trying to win, right? That's what we We know that. We have evidence of that.
00:57:36
So, I can dismiss now, I can say well, Jay is saying that he told the cops where the car was.
00:57:47
And if you can just speculate that the Well, we think that the cops told Jay where the car was.
00:57:53
And it was part of the fabrication. Again, reasonable doubt, you have to go towards innocence.
00:58:00
And that kind of dismisses that theory. But, we still are left with Jen's conversation.
00:58:08
And I'm not saying that Jen is a liar, right? But, we have so many people misremembering
00:58:19
days that we don't know if we don't know if she has the date correct on January 13th.
00:58:32
I mean, that's what she says, Mhm. but how do we not know that she hung out with Jay
00:58:42
after he had a couple talks with police officers before any interview was reported?
00:58:50
And there wasn't some conversation. You know what I'm saying? Cuz everything that she said on the stand, like she
00:58:59
would even tell you, "It's all hearsay because this all was told to me by somebody else."
00:59:06
The only thing that is not hearsay is that she says that she picked up Jay sometime that Jay and Adnan were hanging
00:59:14
out. From from the 13th to whatever it was, the 28th, um that whole time period, how many times
00:59:24
did Jen pick Jay up with Adnan around or at Jay's house. And why doesn't Jay's story line up with Jen's?
00:59:39
She says pick him up up at a mall and Adnan was there. Jay says, "Nah, nah, she picked me up at my house."
00:59:47
Right? And those are not Jay's not changing his story there cuz he has to. That's just what he's claiming. So maybe
00:59:57
he's misremembering. But what I'm saying is we have a lot of people misremembering and the fact that their
01:00:02
stories don't line up makes me believe that Jen is not 100% sure that when she picked up Jay the night
01:00:12
that she picked up Jay and Jay said that Adnan killed Hae. That might not have been the 13th of
01:00:20
January. And if it wasn't then to me when did Jay start fabricating this story? Does that make any sense?
01:00:35
Well, yeah. I mean, the the key here is unless if Jen is correct, all right, let's go back to that. If she's correct
01:00:43
in what she's saying that she picked him up that night from a mall as you January 13th, yeah.
01:00:48
January 13th, picked him up from a mall and he at some point once he's in her car says that
01:00:55
Adnan killed Hae. Yep. If that is correct then now we have to go to well, why would Jay want to alter
01:01:04
that story, alter the truth? Why does Jay want everyone to believe that she picked him up from his house and not
01:01:11
from the mall? Right. And the only thing I can go to is would be this. Is there a if Jay were involved more so
01:01:21
than what he has said or if he committed the crime by himself. Is there a chance that Jay was scared
01:01:29
that that somehow some way they could trace Hae's car, Hae's vehicle to that that shopping mall
01:01:38
Right. where Jen pick says that she picked him up. Right. And if if you could do that, then that
01:01:44
might point to a completely different killer. And so you have to question if if you
01:01:50
believe that Jen's telling us the truth, then why does Jay want to alter that portion of the story that seems to be
01:01:57
kind of pointless on the outside looking in. Right. It's not so obvious that that it's just
01:02:02
this one little detail that he can change and tweak, but he might be the only one that knows the the strength and
01:02:09
the power of of that that actual detail. Right, but if you have this guy's cell phone and you go
01:02:18
he lent his car out to his friend Jay, which is 19, and he's a dummy, and uh we busted him on marijuana, but hey,
01:02:29
you're friends with the ex-boyfriend and a suspect in this girl's case. And if they talked to
01:02:39
him and they kind of laid out on the table like they did with all these other eyewitnesses that really were really
01:02:47
informative, right? These girls that they threatened if they didn't press charges or they
01:02:53
didn't testify that they'd go to jail for whatever. Did the cops then talk to him? And then
01:03:01
did he get picked up from Jen, and that's when he said Oh my god, Adnan killed Hae.
01:03:10
See what I'm saying? No, yeah, yeah, I get it. Cuz cuz then it's not he's telling the
01:03:15
truth. He knows that the cops are going to make him say this. So, now he says it
01:03:20
to a friend. And I just question whether or not Jen knows it was actually January 13th or not. Because like like I
01:03:28
said, the whole documentary just to But sum this up real quickly. Necessarily though, she doesn't have to
01:03:33
know for certain that it was the night of the 13th. It could just be as simple as knowing that it was before Jay ever
01:03:39
spoke to the police. Right. Cuz he didn't speak with the police the 13th, the 14th, the 15th, right? I mean,
01:03:45
there was some delay in that. Right. We we don't really know when he I mean, we have what the
01:03:53
We we have different people saying different things regarding the first time he spoke to police.
01:03:57
Right, but it was like in February. February what? 26th or something when they Yeah.
01:04:02
first like I thought I saw one that said maybe February 22nd. Something like that.
01:04:07
Right. Right, but what I'm saying is so, we're talking about a whole month difference.
01:04:12
But again, you have a girl going missing for 3 weeks with all this time elapsing
01:04:19
because what I'm saying is there's more time elapsing because of the snow days. And when you add in snow days
01:04:27
and the power outages and stuff like that, you start losing communication of certain days. So, it's almost like feels
01:04:33
a little longer. So, I just um so, to me, it was a lot of these bombshells of wow, this is not the
01:04:41
justice system. Wow, they got these people to lie. Um I don't think maybe they didn't even
01:04:48
you know, get the star witness, you know, or the technical witness to lie. He just was
01:04:55
misinformed, but they lied to Jay to fit their narrative. Jay then had to lie on tape, then he had to lie on the
01:05:03
stand. And this is just then you get a guy, again, like I said, how the how is somebody else involved in
01:05:12
this crime, Jay being involved in the crime, and not getting charged with anything?
01:05:20
But you have Adnan being charged with life plus 30. But anyways, but that was the trade-off.
01:05:26
That happens all the time. Yeah, no, I yeah, I understand that. But but to me the whole episode was like
01:05:34
moving forward. It was like maybe not bombshells, but like Jesus Christ. I mean, it really was
01:05:42
made me realize how shifty the cops could be, especially with these uh confessions and the fact that they
01:05:50
had a change the the confessions later. I mean, that's just so shifty. And then like I said, all of a sudden,
01:06:00
after all the smoke clears, Jen is like, "Hey, does not change what happened when Jay got in my car
01:06:08
January 13th." Mhm. And I remember thinking, "Damn." That's the last thing I remember. Like,
01:06:16
to me it was like if again, if that's true, "Damn." But then like I said, couple minutes
01:06:23
later I thought, "What if she's just wrong on the time?" So, I'm I'm but people keep trying to bait me
01:06:33
into arguments on Twitter and Instagram. But uh that hasn't worked yet, but I think that's because
01:06:48
I was never 100% sold that he was innocent or 100% sold that he was guilty. I just really open to the idea of the
01:06:57
discussion and this case because of shows like Serial, because there was a bunch of documentaries, because there
01:07:03
was a show called like um Serial Dynasty, because there was uh another show called Undisclosed and they
01:07:11
dove into every point this case so many people know so much information about it.
01:07:17
So, to me it was always an interesting case to talk to true crime fans or true crime nerds
01:07:24
because there were so many details and you can kind of go through every little piece.
01:07:29
But, I was never sold either way. You know, at moments I'd lean more one way and then other moments lean lean another
01:07:36
way. And you would think by the third part that I'd have a little bit more clarity.
01:07:46
But, and I was getting there. It was like, you know, we're getting to the end of
01:07:51
the episode three and I'm going I'm getting some clarity. I'm going to I'm going to be on one side of the fence and
01:07:57
my fist is going to be up and I'm going to be um doing everything I can to champion that
01:08:03
idea. And then, like I said, this little this little slip, you know. Well, you know,
01:08:12
is Jen correct or not? So, I I feel like I'm more confused than ever. You know what I mean?
01:08:20
But, I definitely I think when you hear me getting upset, it's I know that there was injustice done.
01:08:31
I don't know if he's guilty or not. Right? I don't know 100% if he's guilty or not, but because of the fabrication
01:08:39
of the stories, because of the the tampering with the data and not the correct data
01:08:47
and the not not the correct defense, he deserves a fair trial. You know, and that's hard to say, especially if
01:08:57
you don't know if somebody's 100% innocent or or not. Because obviously if the person is
01:09:03
guilty guilty deserve a fair trial. Yeah, but you know what I mean? Like you're never going to be like, well, we
01:09:08
know this Well, you're now We know this SOB did it. Let's give him a fair trial.
01:09:12
Yeah, but the problem here is we're saying we're talking about somebody that's already in prison. That's that's the the
01:09:19
problem with it. It's Okay, when you say even the guilty deserve a fair trial, that's 100% true. What's not true is
01:09:27
even the guilty deserve another trial. Yeah, it's so frustrating. I just I don't know.
01:09:35
Like I said, I I think part of it is just that I feel like we're better than this.
01:09:42
Or we should be better than this and I know that Don't lump me into this. Leave me out of this.
01:09:47
I know that Well, what I mean by that is just the system in general. I mean, I know
01:09:52
Well, this is not supposed to be how the system works out. This is This is This is individuals if this goes down
01:09:58
the way that they they are presenting it to have likely have gone down. If this goes down did go down the
01:10:05
way that it seems like it may have gone down, this is individuals manipulating the system. This is individuals that are
01:10:11
just they're doing what they want to do. You know, it's You can't If you sit across the table from somebody and
01:10:17
you're playing Monopoly with seven people and one of them cheats, you can't blame it on Monopoly. You blame it on
01:10:23
the on the individual that decided to steal a bunch of the fake money out of the box when you weren't looking.
01:10:28
Right. Yeah. Good point. All right. The system's not The system's not perfect, but it's intended
01:10:37
to be fair. And unfortunately, there are those that take advantage of of the system.
01:10:44
Yeah. Well said. So, well, we got to get out of here cuz we got to head to the airport to pick up
01:10:51
a two special guest. So, we'll see you guys next week. Yeah, we we'll determine how special
01:11:00
these guests are after their visit. Yeah, they they're special special smelly guests. And remember,
01:11:08
ban the van.