00:00:00
On October 17th, discover the secret behind the mask in Black Phone 2. Critics are calling it a cold-blooded
00:00:06
masterpiece, and it's the rare sequel that's scarier than the original. Ethan Hawk is pure nightmare fuel and returns
00:00:12
as the grammar, and Mason ths as Finny. This time, Vengeance isn't going to let death stand in its way. Spine chilling
00:00:18
and heart pounding. It'll get under your skin and into your dreams. Scott Derekson's anticipated sequel asks the
00:00:23
question, do you know what happens when you die? Find out on October 17th when Black Phone 2 arrives in theaters.
00:00:31
This Halloween, what's under your costume might just steal the show. >> Wait, is that glow-in-the-dark
00:00:35
underwear? >> Oh, yeah. Meundies has dropped their spookiest collection yet. Glow-in-the-dark undies and PJs. So
00:00:41
comfy, it's scary. >> Tricks, treats, and buttery soft briefs. >> Exactly. To get cozy and spooky for
00:00:47
less. Go to miunddies.com/tickorreat and enter code trick-or- treat to get 20% off your first order. That's 20% off
00:00:54
your first order at meundies.com/tickorreat. Code trickorreat. Me undies. Treat yourself.
00:01:08
>> Welcome to Off the Record. I'm your host Nick Crime. >> It's good to be seen and it's good to
00:01:15
see you. Off the record. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. >> True Crime podcast.
00:01:23
>> Be good. Be kind and don't live. >> Gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some ground.
00:01:32
>> It's a great day in the garage when you have two friends to join you. We have
00:01:36
the captain, of course. He's here every week, but we are joined today by Ana Kaine and Kevin Greenley, our friends
00:01:43
from the Murder Sheet podcast. We buddied up a few years back and shared a case that we were all four of us very
00:01:51
much obsessed with. And now with the recent release of your fantastic, wonderful book, Shadow of the Bridge,
00:01:58
The Deli Murders, and the Dark Side of the American Heartland, it's out now. It's available everywhere. It's an
00:02:05
incredible read. Anybody that has been eyeballs and earballs deep in this case for years must go and get this and check
00:02:13
it out. The dust jacket tells us that on February 13th, 2017, two teenage friends
00:02:20
went for a walk in the woods just outside of the small city of Deli, Indiana. They should have been safe, but
00:02:26
Liberty German and Abigail Williams never made it home. The next day, searchers found their bodies in a
00:02:32
clearing. The two girls have been brutally murdered. Incredibly, in the final moments of her life, Liberty
00:02:39
somehow managed to capture a video of the man who would soon murder her and her friend. This blurry recording showed
00:02:48
a man lumbering toward the girls and then gruffly commanding them to go down the hill. A fascinated public obsessed
00:02:55
over those clues. Speculation about the killer's identity ran rampant on social media. Meanwhile, a sprawling law
00:03:03
enforcement investigation led to some of the darkest corners of the heartland. Still, the case remained unsolved for
00:03:10
years. But that changed when Deli resident Richard Allen was arrested in October of 2022.
00:03:20
We have the authors of Shadow of the Bridge, Ana Kaine and Kevin Greenley, joining us here today in the garage to
00:03:28
talk about this case, the podcast, and really any way that the captain and I choose to steer this ship. So, welcome
00:03:35
to the garage, guys. This is probably long overdue. >> Well, well, thank you guys so much for
00:03:39
having us. We're absolutely delighted to be here and just want to commend both of
00:03:44
you for your coverage. We we love you guys. So, >> we really do. Do you remember when you
00:03:49
first learned of the murders? Where were you? What were you up to? Because here you have arguably two podcasts that
00:03:56
have, while we are able to shine a light on some other unsolved cases with the murder sheet and our great garage cast
00:04:04
here, we both have continued to return time and time again to this case. But the both of you were not yet seated up
00:04:12
high in your powerful podcasting chairs back in 2017 on that horrible day when a
00:04:17
tiny little man with hell in his heart decided to abduct and take away two precious and very special little girls,
00:04:23
Liberty German and Abigail Williams. Anya, let's start with you. >> Great question. And and honestly, my my
00:04:28
story is going to make me sound kind of dumb. I remember vividly I was in the kitchen at my parents house and my mom
00:04:36
and I are both very into true crime. We would talk about cases that we saw on the news and I remember reading I think
00:04:42
it was one of the English tabloids coverage of deli and my mom was so upset because the girls Abby and Libby
00:04:50
reminded her of my two youngest sisters. They're about the same age and she was like I could totally see them going on
00:04:56
this bridge to take Snapchats or something innocuous like that. And I remember just telling her, "Don't worry,
00:05:02
Mom. They're going to get the guy." One of the girls seemingly caught a picture of him on the bridge. Years and years
00:05:09
later, that that just didn't seem to be happening. But at the time, I was like, "This is going to be solved quickly."
00:05:14
>> And as for me, I happened to have a relative in the hospital at the time, so I wasn't paying much attention to the
00:05:21
news for the first couple of weeks. And then I remember when I did start paying attention to and became aware of this
00:05:28
crime, it already felt like it was so incredibly complicated because so many details were being released and
00:05:37
speculated about on social media. I just imagined it would be impossible to really catch up and really understand
00:05:45
what happened. >> And for the handful of our listeners that are not familiar with the murder
00:05:50
sheet, we should point out that you guys are our neighbors. You are in the great
00:05:54
state of Indiana, which of course this is where this terrible case took place. Were you both in Indiana at the time?
00:06:00
>> No, I was living in New York and and Kevin was in Indiana. >> I love the title. It's so very fitting.
00:06:09
Shadow of the Bridge, the deli murders, and the dark side of the American heartland. Your book is over 400 pages,
00:06:15
so it's very much a complete telling of this Indiana tragedy. And you get so many words. You only get so many words
00:06:23
to put onto the cover. Kevin, what is the story behind the chosen title? >> Well, when we thought about it, it
00:06:30
really feels like this case cast a shadow over the town, over the families, and over all of us who have been
00:06:42
following it for so many years. as you so abley said, we keep coming back to it because there is something here we just
00:06:52
quite can't quite escape. It's just like a a shadow over all of us. >> And I I will add to that one thing we
00:06:58
learned during trial that kind of we didn't necessarily know about prior to picking the title because that the title
00:07:05
has been something we came up with a long time ago. But, you know, Libbyy's phone data shows that the girls, you
00:07:12
know, descend after they are being abducted by the killer. And it it sort of was like some police speculated to us
00:07:22
that, you know, they were at some point in the shadow of the bridge sort of as as some of these things unfold. So, it
00:07:29
kind of it kind of took on a new meaning for me when we were at trial. And not to
00:07:34
make this some mystical thing here, but really for five years, over five years, we only had a couple things to look at
00:07:42
and point to that we could recognize as evil. And it's you have an inanimate object like the bridge that sort of
00:07:50
represents some form of evil. Because to me, the first time we see Bridge guy is from the
00:08:00
footage from Liberty's phone. It's like this big scary tall bridge birthed this evil little man that we see for the
00:08:09
first time and for five and a half years it's who was bridge guy, why was he there that day? What was he up to? and
00:08:16
he just so happened to cross paths with, and I shouldn't say cross paths because
00:08:22
I've always believed that it was set like a snare trap that the the the bridge was his spiderweb and he was just
00:08:32
waiting for the flies to fall into it. And what was your experience with the high bridge uh when you went out there?
00:08:38
>> Great question. I completely agree with that analysis. I think the bridge was
00:08:42
his trap. whoever was going to cross the bridge that day was going to be the person or people he went after. And for
00:08:49
us, neither of us is very athletic. I don't like heights. So, whenever we would go to the trails of Deli, first of
00:08:57
all, there's a real heaviness there. There's a real sense of sadness there. It's often pretty deserted. But, I
00:09:03
remember the first time we went, we didn't go the main path to like lead to the bridge. I think that was blocked
00:09:09
off. We we headed for the banks of Deer Creek and then were looking up at this just massive hulking bridge and it
00:09:18
looked so unstable and frightening and we remember just feeling like wow the girls must have felt very trapped up
00:09:25
there once they realized they were being followed. Anagna says the bridge is unstable and people who have walked out
00:09:33
across it talk about how when the wind blows sometimes the bridge itself moves and there's even missing planks in the
00:09:42
bridge. And I recall when we spoke with former Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter, he said
00:09:49
after he crossed the bridge and then had to go back across it, he felt so uneasy
00:09:55
he actually had to crawl across it. >> Yeah. And that was a bit of a shocker to read that in your book with Doug Carter
00:10:02
because he's the type of guy type of man that within 30 seconds of interacting with him, you can tell right away this
00:10:09
is a brave, smart gentleman. And for him to have to crawl as so many others were
00:10:15
sort of reduced to with this bridge, for him to have to do that told me, you know, we were offered many times, we
00:10:23
were asked by other podcasters, local folks to go out to the bridge and I and while we we planned several times to do
00:10:31
that and ultimately the plans would fall apart. But I knew in advance I Ana, I'm
00:10:37
like you. I don't know what happened. I used to do ropes courses, jump off of cliffs when I was a kid, but at some
00:10:42
point in my early 20s, I became terrified of heights, and I I wouldn't have I don't know that I would have made
00:10:49
it out 10 feet onto that bridge. So, don't feel uh don't feel any uneasiness because as Kevin says, the bridge would
00:10:57
be shaking. I would be shaking on there as well. >> I appreciate that. And I'm going to tell
00:11:01
you, I did I just the thing that kept flashing in my mind was like some YouTube video of like podcasters fall
00:11:06
off bridge and die. Like I was like, we don't want to be those people. It's it would be two. I mean it that that would
00:11:13
be us. That would be Kevin and me. >> So on February 13th, 2017, we have both the perpetrator and the victims arriving
00:11:21
at the trail system roughly at the same time in the early afternoon. And by all accounts, the the victim, this was
00:11:29
something that was a hot debate early on in the in the goings of this investigation. But by all accounts, the
00:11:36
victims do not know Richard Allen, who is later identified as Bridge Guy. >> Yes, that's right.
00:11:42
>> And they're arriving that day about the same time. Talk about the the search that commenced and what does that tell
00:11:50
us about the town of Deli and the county, Carol County, as well? So many people out searching for these two
00:11:59
girls. So, the surge really gets started pretty quickly when Libby and Abby fail
00:12:05
to meet back up with Libbyy's dad, Derek, as they planned. And, you know, he looks around for them, and I imagine
00:12:12
he's thinking, "Oh gosh, teenagers. Maybe they're just late." Although, frankly, that was pretty out of
00:12:17
character for Libby not to be in contact. So, when he can find them, he brings in his family. Libbyy's family
00:12:24
sort of swarms the trails and they're all looking for her. when they cannot find her and when she is just not
00:12:31
responding to texts, not responding to calls. Um, and and they they basically say, "This is getting scary." And they
00:12:38
phone in law enforcement and law enforcement sends in sheriff's deputies, police officers from Deli. There are
00:12:48
firefighters involved. All these first responders going across the, you know, entire woods looking for the girls. And
00:12:57
I want to do note that they're not looking for bodies. They're looking for maybe girls who got injured or who got
00:13:04
lost or or something like that. They really don't suspect any foul play. They just think maybe someone twisted an
00:13:10
ankle and they're hunkered down somewhere scared. And I I want to stress that when Anya talks about the first
00:13:18
responders doing the search, that of course is entirely accurate, but that's only part of the story because Deli is
00:13:25
the type of place where everybody wanted to pitch in once they realized what was
00:13:31
going on. Employers, businesses were even telling their employees, "If you want, take the day off and go and join
00:13:39
in this search." It was a real community effort. >> Yeah. Like people were so committed and
00:13:44
when I ask people why is deli like that almost like is it just a very friendly town people say it is it's a town where
00:13:51
everyone knows everybody and it's a town where it's traditionally like a farming
00:13:55
community and what we've been told is like sometimes in those rural farming communities there's just this real sense
00:14:01
of like if my neighbor is in trouble I'm going to drop everything and help them deal with whatever situation that is and
00:14:07
that that definitely came into play here. One thing too is Indiana, for those that have not had the privilege of
00:14:13
traveling through or staying in the state of Indiana, Indiana's tends to be quite a bit more religious than many
00:14:20
other states as well. And I I would think that that has something to do with the tightness of this community of Deli
00:14:29
and Carol County. >> Yeah, a lot of the people in this story are people of faith, and that's
00:14:33
something that did strike me. Not everybody, but but a lot of people who were involved in this case.
00:14:40
>> Even the police chief of Deli, Steve Mullen, he is so strongly a man of faith. He doesn't even swear. He he will
00:14:51
do he will even say he will go above and beyond to avoid swearing. >> There was quite a bit of swearing in
00:14:57
your book, by the way, Kevin. >> Yes. My father pointed that out to me the other day.
00:15:02
>> Kevin's father was not happy about this. There was uh about as many fbombs as a
00:15:07
Guns and Roses album. Let's talk about the Patties a bit because really leading the charge on
00:15:16
Searching for the Girls was Mike and Becky Patty. I I know that a lot of this is going to be repetitive because the
00:15:23
the folks that have been longtime listeners of our show and your show know the case very well, but there there are
00:15:29
some people tuning in today that don't know the particulars. So tell us a bit about the Mike and Becky Patty.
00:15:35
>> So Mike and Becky Patty are a couple. They were Libbyy's grandparents or I should say Becky was her paternal
00:15:44
grandmother and then Mike is her stepgrandfather. And they're I I truly think of them,
00:15:50
this is going to sound cheesy, so I apologize to them if they listen, but I think of them as sort of a power couple.
00:15:55
They're they're a couple that's like gets things done just in just in life. I mean beyond this whole situation, but
00:16:04
when the family hit this kind of crisis, they were very much dedicated to each other, dedicated to their family, and
00:16:11
dedicated to figuring out what happened to the girls. They just have that kind of relationship, I think, where they
00:16:18
kind of weather some of these storms. Mike is a lot quieter. Mike is very practical. He's, I believe, an engineer,
00:16:27
so he has that sort of logical analysis of things. Becky is someone who's just kind of a force of nature. She's going
00:16:35
to get things done. And, you know, they're they're tough people, but they're also very kind in our
00:16:41
experience. They're very, very kind. They look out for others, and they're I don't know, just they have a gentleness
00:16:48
about them that's really impressive just given everything that's happened. But when when Libby turned up missing and
00:16:55
then when when things started to happen in the case, they were they were going to be people who were never going to
00:17:00
give up advocating for Libby and Abby. >> The following day, a shoe is found and
00:17:07
then a one of the search teams, a man from the search team spots a body or finds the girls. He was, from my
00:17:16
understanding, actually hanging out with Mike Patty the night before when the girls were still missing and they were
00:17:23
trying to strategize and sort of game plan how to how to find the girls. Take us into that meeting as well as the
00:17:31
discovery. >> Yeah. So, it goes back to this idea that people know each other and they're
00:17:36
calling in their friends and their friends are coming in and dropping everything to help them. So that
00:17:42
searcher did know Mike Patty and and there were these communications of what can we do to help? Where can we search?
00:17:48
Civilians taking it into their own hands because again they don't think they're looking for a crime scene. They think
00:17:54
they're looking for two lost little girls. So the next day so many volunteer searchers turn out. They're being
00:18:01
assigned into different groups and sent out there. A a group of them, several groups of them really converge on the
00:18:07
spot where the girls are. And you have some men who are more in, you know, around the creek who are seeing clothing
00:18:14
and they're seeing shoes and they're saying, "Okay, these might be clues." And then on the other side, you have
00:18:21
people on foot who are going through the forest and and one of them does come across the girls. It's a shocking sight
00:18:29
because they can't really see them. They're in a bit of a shallow indentation near the banks of the Deer
00:18:36
of Deer Creek. They just come upon them and they're so pale. He he initially thinks they're mannequins and then very
00:18:44
quickly realizes this is a crime scene. So he's able to tell the other searchers
00:18:49
with him like don't come any closer. We need to stay here and make sure no one walks over this crime scene. When the
00:18:57
girls are found, from an investigative standpoint, there are three clear and visible findings immediately that are of
00:19:11
note with the girls. The the bullet, the phone, and the sticks. There's been much
00:19:17
to do about the branches. Talk about all three pieces of those uh evidence or parts of the the crime scene. So, the
00:19:26
first thing that's probably noticeable at the crime scene is that the the girls are covered in these branches. And when
00:19:35
I say covered, I really do mean they're they're really just a couple of handful of them. They don't cover them up as far
00:19:42
as someone looking from overhead or someone coming right upon them. Although I will note that when it comes to the
00:19:51
view from the other side of the creek, they do provide more coverage. So some have speculated that the goal was to
00:19:58
render them hidden from the other side of the creek versus people on the side of the creek with the bodies. Those are
00:20:04
the sticks. So they they basically kind of crossed over them. And some have seen
00:20:10
patterns in them. And then others just felt and law enforcement felt that it was just somebody trying to make sure
00:20:18
they weren't seen from the other side of the creek. >> And then another key piece, as you
00:20:22
indicated, was this bullet or this unspent cartridge because it was a chamber that had been in a gun and had
00:20:31
been cycled out without being fired. It was discovered between the bodies of the
00:20:38
two girls. And this became even more crucial once you start considering the phone because the phone was the phone of
00:20:48
Liberty German. And on that phone was a recording of basically their abduction, the abduction of these two girls. And on
00:21:00
that video, you get an idea of what the abductor, the kidnapper, this guy referred to as Bridge Guy, you can see
00:21:07
what he's wearing. And you can also hear what he is saying. And he says at one point, "Guys," and then there was a
00:21:15
pause and then he says, "Down the hill." And during that pause, you can hear the
00:21:21
sound of a gun rack. So it becomes clear that one of the ways he was able to control these two young girls was
00:21:31
through brandishing a weapon. And so it became clear that the bullet at the crime scene must have come from that
00:21:39
weapon. >> Now, initially, law enforcement only released a small portion of that video.
00:21:44
What did you guys learn or feel like you might have learned by them releasing the
00:21:49
full length of that video? >> I felt the thing that really chilled me was I felt I learned how scared the
00:21:58
girls were. So when we all saw this initially, I think they released just a still from the
00:22:06
video which was like a zoomed in version of Bridge Guy and then a few years later
00:22:12
they released kind of a bit of a clip of him walking and and you know they released audio at different times. So
00:22:19
first it was just down the hill, then it was guys down the hill and all of that kind of gave a sense of like what they
00:22:25
were looking for which was who is this guy? Does anyone recognize him? Does anyone recognize his voice or the way
00:22:31
he's walking or how he's dressed? And what the full video did in court was just show us that, you know, these are
00:22:38
two girls who I think are being stalked by this man. I feel like as a woman, I've been in situations where you almost
00:22:46
have this kind of voice where you're like more high-pitched and you're more of like, okay, if I act really normal,
00:22:52
this guy's going to leave me alone. It's like they sound scared, but like they're
00:22:56
trying to hold it together to avoid setting him off. And you can tell that they're breathing very heavily. It's
00:23:03
just it's very upsetting to listen to because I I remember when he approaches them, one of one or both of them says hi
00:23:10
to him. Like they're trying to be friendly. They're trying to be nice and they're clearly very scared because I
00:23:17
think I think most guys who are not like threatening, you know, you don't want to
00:23:22
do something where you're like following behind two young girls on a bridge. I think most guys if you're like, "Oh, I
00:23:28
don't want to freak them out. I'm just going to wait till they go and then I'll, you know, come back." Like once
00:23:32
they come back, then I'll use the bridge. You know, you're like most guys are more thoughtful than that. So, I
00:23:36
think they realized something's not right here and we're being followed, but I think they were just hoping it was a
00:23:42
misunderstanding on their parts. And and I think what really stuck with me was Abby saying to Libby at one point, I'm
00:23:48
paraphrasing, but something like, "Don't leave me up here." And that broke my heart because they never they never left
00:23:56
each other in the end. The sticks, as I said, there's been so much talk about and speculation about the branches that
00:24:03
they mean something, that they're significant to tell us who was responsible and why the girls were
00:24:10
killed. But in all reality, the sense at the scene that investigators are getting
00:24:18
immediately is that no, that this these are not branches that were freshly cut. They don't show markings of having been
00:24:26
cut. These are in all likelihood branches that have by the everyday power of the great mother nature fallen to the
00:24:34
the forest floor. The killer collected them in haste and attempted to camouflage the the the bodies in some
00:24:42
form or fashion. It that's that's your description of of these branches as well, right? So we don't confuse anybody
00:24:52
out there that's made a lot to do about these branches. >> Yeah. And I will say I mean law
00:24:57
enforcement was open to the possibility that their initial hunch was incorrect. They did seek out expertise from one
00:25:06
expert in sort of Norse runes. And what the guy said was these aren't runes. I mean, like what I'm looking at, if I
00:25:14
basically throw out a bunch of sticks in my yard and I invite you guys over and for some reason you come and you're
00:25:20
like, "What's going on?" And I say, "Can you read my name in these sticks?" Maybe
00:25:24
you say, "Well, that kind of looks like an A and that one off by itself kind of looks like an I, but the rest of it
00:25:31
doesn't." You know, it's like you letters have to be in certain shapes in order to spell something. And and these
00:25:38
just weren't. So it it it doesn't look so much like someone's purposely placing sticks as it does someone just hastily
00:25:47
putting sticks over bodies in the attempt to conceal. And I I think that's what was clear early on and they were
00:25:56
open to other things, but an expert told them, "Hey, this doesn't spell anything.
00:26:00
These aren't runes." So I at some point you have to let that go. >> Yeah. It's it's not the same as graffiti
00:26:06
or writing pig and blood on the wall at a murder scene. The these branches are really like looking at clouds in the
00:26:13
sky. It's open to interpretation and it it it's of no meaning at all. The alarm bells have to be going off
00:26:21
immediately with the finding of this bullet in large part due to the caliber because 40 caliber is not a common law
00:26:30
enforcement caliber of gun that that most members men and women in law enforcement carry. So immediately this
00:26:38
has to be even prior I'm guessing to to finding and viewing the footage on the phone and hearing the audio on the
00:26:47
phone. This this bullet is significant right out the gate. >> Yes. They feel like this bullet could
00:26:53
end up tying whoever we're looking for to this crime scene. And it also gave them the indication. I think early
00:27:01
analysis indicated that they might be looking for a sig sour weapon. So, they had a sense and they were going to test
00:27:09
every weapon against this thing, but I think they had a sense of we might kind of know the type of gun we're looking
00:27:15
for. >> And the importance of the bullet also kind of explains why so much about the
00:27:23
details of the crime scene were kept secret for years. Because investigators realize that if we put out, oh, we
00:27:31
recovered a bullet from the crime scene and we feel we can tie it to a gun. If the killer reads that or hears that on
00:27:40
television, obviously the first thing he's going to do is he's going to get rid of his gun. Mhm.
00:27:44
>> So it became very important to keep that and some of these details a secret from
00:27:50
the public which did have the tendency to inspire a lot of conspiracy theorizing and confusion.
00:27:58
>> And I'm going to I'm going to not lie like we were I feel kind of like we were
00:28:02
overly harsh on law enforcement cuz we were definitely a voice saying, "Hey, why don't you release more details?
00:28:08
What's going on?" You know, like let us know. you know, you have to use the public to help you solve this case. And
00:28:16
honestly, if they'd taken our advice, especially around the cartridge and the bullet, I I don't know if this case
00:28:22
would have gotten solved. I think it was important that they did not release anything around that. And that that
00:28:28
bullet detail never leaked. That never came out. And I think, you know, that shows how important it was. But we were
00:28:34
we were definitely people who were like, "Release stuff." And now I'm kind of like, "No, I think I think they did the
00:28:39
right thing here." which which is incredible considering all the other cases you guys
00:28:44
have reviewed and cases we've reviewed. You take one that just had some big break, the yogurt shop, they had 13
00:28:53
pieces of holdback information and every one of them managed to leak their way out even before they arrested and tried
00:29:01
Springsteen and Michael Scott. Mhm. >> And so it's not something that's easy to do, especially when you have so many
00:29:08
different law enforcement agencies involved. There was a lot of cooks in the kitchen for this one, and they
00:29:14
managed to keep that detail, as you said, perfectly secret to the point that the killer was dumb enough to keep his
00:29:24
gun all of that time. The the one thing that would truly tie him to the murders [Music]
00:29:39
Sling is changing the way live TV works by putting viewers in charge of their entertainment. Sports, entertainment,
00:29:46
and news can all be tailored without unnecessary extras. Pay only for the months when TV is actually needed and
00:29:54
skip the ones when it's not. I love only paying for stuff when I want it and when
00:30:01
I need it with TV. I'm a big football guy. I absolutely need access to my favorite sports channels during the
00:30:10
football season. But I don't even really need a TV when football is out of season. Sling gives me that option. And
00:30:17
then once in a while, maybe I want to dive in and binge watch something and it's not during football season. I can
00:30:23
sign up for the day pass or maybe the weekend pass for three-day viewing. Choose and customize your channel lineup
00:30:30
or pause and watch for free. Sling let you do that. Visit sling.com to learn more. Have you had that moment where
00:30:40
your kid asks for help with homework and you're like, I haven't done this since middle school. Or maybe your child's
00:30:47
ahead of the curve and getting bored in class. Whether your kid is struggling or
00:30:51
soaring, can make a real difference. L is an award-winning online learning platform that helps kids really
00:31:00
understand what they're learning. It covers math, language arts, science, and social studies from preK all the way
00:31:07
through 12th grade. It's designed to be engaging, personalized, and yes, actually fun with encouraging feedback
00:31:14
that keeps kids motivated. Don't miss out. EL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the US. One in four
00:31:23
students in the US are learning with. I have friends and family that have used for years. It's great for the summer
00:31:32
months when there's no classes so you can stay on track and it's even better when there are classes trying to get
00:31:39
ahead. Or maybe your kid needs help studying for test. Most kids need help in specific areas. I know that I did.
00:31:46
And is a great way to keep your kids on track or to get ahead. Make an impact on
00:31:53
your child's learning and get Il now. And True Crime Garage listeners can get an exclusive 20% offl membership when
00:32:01
they sign up today atl.com/g. Visitl.com/g to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.
00:32:15
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. World Mental Health Day is in October and BetterHelp is shining the spotlight
00:32:22
on therapists. People who truly make the world a better place because the right therapist can change everything.
00:32:29
BetterHelp therapist work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US. BetterHelp does the
00:32:38
initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs
00:32:46
and preferences. And their 12 plus years of experience and industry-leading match
00:32:51
fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you are not happy with your match, switch to a
00:33:00
different therapist. It's that easy. This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapist who've helped
00:33:07
millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help
00:33:15
you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/g.
00:33:23
That's betterh ep.com/g. Most people think that home security is just an alarm that goes off after a
00:33:33
break-in, scaring the intruder off and getting a neighbor's attention if you're lucky. But that's a reactive approach.
00:33:41
By the time an intruder is inside of your home, it's too late. Your feeling of safety is shattered. That's why you
00:33:48
should trust Simply Safe. Their system is designed to be proactive, not reactive. They use smart AI powered
00:33:57
cameras to identify threats lurking outside of your home or business. And immediately alert Simply Safe's
00:34:04
professional monitoring agents. They access two-way audio to confront the person, let them know that they are
00:34:11
being recorded, they're being filmed, trigger sirens and spotlights to scare them off, and request police dispatch
00:34:19
when needed. All helping to stop the breakin, stop the intruder while they are still outside of your home. That's
00:34:27
why I love Simply Safe. It's a double layer of protection. You get the AI powered cameras with the professional
00:34:33
monitoring. And let me tell you from experience, their monitoring agents are better than other services and security
00:34:40
systems that I have had in the past. It's a better system at a better price. Check out Simplysafe for your home or
00:34:48
your office. Get peace of mind. Visit simplysafe.com/g to claim 50% off a new system. That's
00:34:56
simply.com/g. There's no safe like Simplysafe. [Music] As the information was coming out in
00:35:15
this case, was there a turning point for you? And and this question is for both of you.
00:35:21
Was there a turning point of I I'm just interested or fascinated with this case to to the moment where you go I I need
00:35:31
to get involved? >> That's a great question. I think this case was for me sort of like being a
00:35:37
frog boiled in water, you know, if someone had just thrown me in in the middle of trial. And I will commend some
00:35:45
some folks came in uh from YouTube and and different podcasts and they were able to just jump in and go with it and
00:35:51
they did a great job. But for me, I think I would have been like, "Get me out of here." I I think it was so
00:35:58
chaotic and it was so depressing and sad and heartbreaking. But I think for me it
00:36:02
was like we started getting into it and then it just morphed into more of an obsession in a way because we were like
00:36:09
we cannot let this go. we have to keep reporting on it and try to get answers. And I think at some point we just
00:36:18
crossed that threshold perhaps without re realizing it. We never really wanted to get involved because we never wanted
00:36:23
to be part of the story. Although unfortunately that did happen kind of against our will, but we we knew we were
00:36:30
going to be involved in in the sense of covering it for a long time. And there were a couple times there would be so
00:36:36
much drama and you'd be like, I don't want to cover this anymore. And we always kept coming back cuz it was like
00:36:41
we felt we had a duty to say say what was going on, I guess. >> And I also think as time passed and we
00:36:50
got to know the families better and got to know the city of Deli better and just
00:36:56
to see how this affected all of them. It became in some way personal that we really did very much want to see justice
00:37:04
done and we wanted to share the story of how that happened. Well, and in some ways, you guys became an your podcast
00:37:11
became an authority on the case because, like you said, you wanted more information to come out. Why are you
00:37:19
holding back so much information? You do. The longer an investigation drags on, I think it's just human nature to
00:37:26
start to wonder, are these are these guys able to solve this thing? Is this is this above their heads? I think
00:37:33
that's just natural. But you guys sort of became a an authority on the case because while this there was information
00:37:42
out there that was public information, the public didn't know about it, right? So you were able to release information
00:37:49
about this case that otherwise was going unnoticed. >> Yeah, we were able to get that and we
00:37:54
were able to get some trust from members of the communities affected and they were able to give us more information.
00:38:01
And so it kind of was a positive feedback cycle where we would do some reporting and people would kind of fill
00:38:07
in and we'd be able to do more reporting and and that was nice. And I think it kind of shows that the community
00:38:12
members, you know, did want to continue to put information out there. I think with law enforcement, they were they
00:38:18
were very much not leaking to us and not interested in in having those conversations. And I understand that,
00:38:24
you know, and we understood it at the time, too. But it was one of those things where I think they were more of
00:38:29
like why why are you like why do you want to cover it in such depth you know and we had to explain to them it's
00:38:36
because there is a strong public interest people want to see what's happening so I think over time they came
00:38:41
to understand where we were coming from too and they they respected that and they understood that even though we were
00:38:48
criticizing them at times we were trying to be fair about it we weren't just trying to say oh they're corrupt or
00:38:54
they're evil or they're incompetent. We were just, you know, we were speaking based on what we knew and trying to be
00:39:00
as fair as possible. >> Yeah. And it they were listening. I didn't realized this at the time because
00:39:07
the prosecutors and the police couldn't really talk to us because there was a gag order in place. They weren't talking
00:39:14
to us, but they we were talking to them through the podcast without knowing it because people would be sending them
00:39:21
clips of things we'd said on the show, either positive or negative. And not just us, they'd send them clips of your
00:39:29
show and other programs and we didn't realize that. And so when it came to the point where we were able to do
00:39:35
interviews with some of these people, I remember for instance I was sitting down
00:39:40
and Ana was with me of course we were talking with prosecutor Nicholas Mleland and I said oh you know some people were
00:39:46
pretty critical of you over the secrecy and he just waited a beat and said yeah Kevin you were I I heard the clips
00:39:54
>> and I remember too we were talking with one of the investigators on the case and
00:39:59
he was like people in his department would send him, you know, stuff and they'd be like, "Well, I think I know
00:40:05
more about your case than you do because I listen to the murder sheet." And so he
00:40:08
was like, "Uh, like," so I think they were maybe a little annoyed with us at times. But, um, I think they understood
00:40:14
that we were trying to be fair and I think they understood that with time, like, you know, you guys did some great
00:40:19
coverage. The prosecutors did some great coverage on their show. I think they understood that all of these people are
00:40:26
just trying to inform the public at the end of the day and we don't we don't mean harm and you can't say that for
00:40:32
everybody in podcasting or YouTube but but there that there were shows that were trying to do a good job and I think
00:40:40
they they understood that for at least for at least some of us. Do you think the coverage from podcasters and
00:40:46
YouTubers helped the case ultimately or do you think it hindered the case? >> I think that's a great question and I
00:40:54
think it it really just depends on the show. And I think for the most part it didn't necessarily affect things either
00:41:01
way. I'd say for for our show people sometimes thank us. They're like, "Thank you so much. I I think you you helped
00:41:08
solve the case." And we have to be like, "We didn't do anything. We truly did not
00:41:12
help solve the case. Our show did not have an impact. It hopefully kept the public informed, but we don't deserve
00:41:20
any credit as far as an outcome. And I think that is where shows did shine where they could keep the public
00:41:27
informed. I know at the Clue Awards at Crime Con, Mike Patty, Libbyy's grandfather, ended up thanking
00:41:35
podcasters and and people who were covering it in the media because he said that kept the story alive. So, in terms
00:41:42
of continuing to make it clear to everyone that Libby and Abby were important and that we all wanted to see
00:41:47
this case solved, I think that's a benefit. And as far as hurting the case, I think in some instances there were
00:41:55
attempts to hurt the case or misinform the public, but that was probably more specific shows doing that. So, I think
00:42:02
it was kind of across the board and it depends on what we're talking about, but for the most part, I think it was
00:42:07
probably a neutral to positive impact. >> I would agree with that. >> Yeah. I often wonder because of the
00:42:15
podcasters, because of the YouTubers that created also media coverage, I would see you guys on the news often.
00:42:25
And you just kind of wonder that puts some pressure on law enforcement and maybe they wouldn't have gone back and
00:42:32
double checked their work and maybe would be sitting here with the case still not solved after all these years.
00:42:39
>> I thought that for a time, too. But meeting those investigators, I think on some level they were as obsessed with it
00:42:47
as all of us were. I think they were really emotionally locked in in a way that almost surprised me because you're
00:42:56
talking about all these like veteran law enforcement guys and they're also, you know, Midwestern, middle-aged men for
00:43:02
the most part. And when we finally sat down to interview them for the book, a lot of them were like crying because
00:43:08
like I think Abby and Libby just came to mean a lot to them. So I I feel like I for a long time thought, okay, we need
00:43:15
to keep the pressure up because otherwise they might just ditch the case. Although maybe maybe that's
00:43:20
possible in the macro sense, but just having met some of them, I I think they were in it for for as long as it was
00:43:26
going to take. and and perhaps it was helpful for them because it, you know, ensured that higherups knew, hey, this
00:43:33
is really important and the public wants to see movement on this. So maybe maybe
00:43:36
it did help with resources and giving them the space to do it. But yeah, it was it was it was interesting to finally
00:43:43
meet some of these people. >> And I don't think I'm giving away any secrets when I say Ana and I have had
00:43:49
talks with both of you in real life about this case. And in those conversations,
00:43:56
you could tell that all of us were really obsessed with finding answers and we really cared deeply about this case.
00:44:03
And when you feel that way about a case, you can recognize it when you're talking
00:44:07
with someone else who feels about the case. And what the obsession and the compassion for the victims and the
00:44:14
desire for justice that I felt coming from both of you was very very similar to what I felt coming from these
00:44:21
investigators. I will also add that is something I do love about Nick's book on deli because I know we're talking about
00:44:28
our book, but I felt like Nick's book you captured the for lack of a better term vibe of why everyone is so obsessed
00:44:38
with this case because it it becomes almost and I thought your book again captured this really well. It becomes
00:44:45
almost like a personal mission and not every case has that effect and it's not that every case isn't important. All of
00:44:52
all of them are important, I think, and and deserve attention. It's just there's
00:44:56
something about Deli that makes everyone feel if I can just dig a little harder,
00:45:03
I might be able to get somewhere. And that that was what sucked a lot of people in. I think that's partly what
00:45:07
sucked us in. And it was Yeah. I mean, it it just it kind of takes over your life for a lot of people.
00:45:13
>> Well, this is going to turn into just one big love fest here because compliments all around the room, all
00:45:18
around the garage today. One thing I loved about your guys's coverage of the case when it was ongoing before Richard
00:45:24
Allen was identified and then after and this carried over to the book and that's what makes the book so good,
00:45:32
right? If you like Anya, if you like Kevin, if you love the murder sheet, you're instantly going to love this book
00:45:38
because it's an extension of all of the work that you guys have done on that. And the thing that I loved about your
00:45:43
guys' work on this case was even as as passionate and as obsessed as you may have become at certain times, you manage
00:45:54
to stay as level-headed as one can in the moment, but you you also don't pull any punches, right? You you guys I love
00:46:04
that you call people out when they deserve to be called out and you do that on the show and you do it in the book.
00:46:09
And I think that that's one thing that sets you guys apart, that you're able to do that in a way that is also fair and
00:46:16
level-headed. >> That Thank you. That means a lot. We we tried it and sometimes we didn't feel
00:46:21
levelheaded, but we we tried to maintain some kind of fairness and balance throughout.
00:46:27
>> And I I think I've been very lucky in that regard because I'm married to a wonderful person to work with on this.
00:46:36
Anya has journalistic background that I really really rely on. I really rely on her judgment and her expertise and a lot
00:46:47
of the positive things that you've just said I feel are really attributable to her and I just feel very very lucky not
00:46:54
only to be married to her but to be working with her. >> A thank you Kevin. I didn't force him to
00:46:59
say that by the way. That was all organic. Hey, Kevin, blink twice if you're being
00:47:04
held against your will. >> He just blinked 365 times. >> Oh my good. Well, and you know, on I
00:47:13
don't know about behind the scenes on your guys' end, but on our end, you're absolutely right. We got we got up in
00:47:20
our feelings about this case plenty of times and there were a handful of times that we are microphones off in a
00:47:26
disagreement about the case or the investigation or what's going on with it trying to read too much between the
00:47:32
lines and more than once we had to look at each other and go what's going on here. You know, you didn't kill him. Uh
00:47:40
you don't know who did it. I don't know who did it. What you know, what are we getting all worked up here for? It's
00:47:44
it's a case that drew so many people in and so many people had very loud voices.
00:47:49
Some of them should not have had a loud voice at all. Uh but it was a case that that drew so many folks in. And as you
00:47:56
say, I think that the good podcasters and the and the good YouTube shows that were doing it correctly and that carried
00:48:04
themselves with a level of integrity in a way I think helped the overall encompassing story because I think it
00:48:13
did manage to keep some of the public at bay and keep them keep them a little more reserved because there were people
00:48:21
that were going off the rails here and saying some crazy [ __ ] [ __ ] that just wasn't even wasn't
00:48:28
plausible, wasn't practical, wasn't in the realm of reality. And one thing when we th this shows the the level of class
00:48:37
of the Patties, you guys just you guys just came to and witnessed your first Crime Con this this
00:48:45
last year, and we were so glad to see you guys there. You're natural fit. You should have been there the whole time.
00:48:50
But in 2018 and Kelsey the first one, >> Kelsey Libbyy's older sister talks about
00:49:00
this in Susan Hendrick's book Down the Hill, how she was in a very dark place in a world of hurt. Of course, why
00:49:10
wouldn't she be? Until she there was the healing sort of started for her, as she says in in Susan Hendricks's book
00:49:20
at the Nashville 2018 Crime Con. What is still very difficult for me to wrap my my head and heart around is that in
00:49:30
2018, Mike and Becky Patty come up to the True Crime Garage table. They go way out of their way. They've just
00:49:38
experienced the most horrific tragedy anybody could possibly ever experience. And they come up to us and say, "Thank
00:49:45
you guys for covering Libby and Aby's case and and keeping the case and getting it out there." And it just I I
00:49:53
told them, I don't know if I would have the strength to to do what you guys just
00:49:59
did, to go out of your way and and and say something so nice to to some some folks that that you you've never met.
00:50:06
and and we are retelling your tragedy over and over again. And I what was so one thing that I think was lost on a lot
00:50:17
of folks out there was what these families had gone through and then their names to be smeared on
00:50:27
the internet daily was just sick and it was perverse and disgusting. And yet they they walked and carried themselves.
00:50:39
And talk about the folks that helped them. I I I think there's they it it's weird. I said this in my book that I
00:50:46
think in some weird strange way Mike and Becky Patty taught all of us how to handle and how to live with something
00:50:55
that they had to experience firsthand. And I know you've guys had a had a lot of interaction with them, but talk about
00:51:01
them. talk about uh talk about Doug Carter as well because I he's a big part of this story.
00:51:08
>> Absolutely. And yeah, I know I know they appreciated so much of this podcast coverage and that was you know as you
00:51:14
said we felt uncomfortable too because it's like we are making a podcast about your guys's personal tragedy, but they
00:51:21
had so much grace. >> They had so much grace. They're remarkable people. Uh, I want to say
00:51:26
something that Becky did that just astonished me. As you indicated a moment ago, they got a lot of unwarranted grief
00:51:39
on the internet. There would be people online saying, "These people killed these girls." Becky Patty was involved.
00:51:46
Kelsey was involved. Just awful, vile things without a shred of truth to them. And some of the people who were saying
00:51:55
that online came to the trial and would wait in line at the trial to get in. And
00:52:04
Becky Patty more than once she would look at these people in line and think they're here because they care about the
00:52:12
girls. And she would bring the people in line food. and she would go and she would look right in the eyes of some of
00:52:20
these people, including people who had accused her of murder and she would give them freshly baked banana bread just out
00:52:28
of the kindness of her heart. And I don't understand how she was able to do that, but I have so much respect for
00:52:35
her. >> I told her, Becky, I would be throwing the banana bread in the pan at some of
00:52:40
these people's heads based on what they were doing. and she was like, "Well, you
00:52:44
I mean, she's she's just a very genuinely nice person. She's a lot nicer than I could ever be in a situation like
00:52:50
that." But I I felt like that was something that was remarkable to us. And and they they taught us, too. I mean, we
00:52:57
had the same thing where, you know, we we had to learn to how to communicate with, you know, victim's families in a
00:53:04
way that would inform them and keep them feeling like we were giving them that information and sort of like passing
00:53:11
that on to them in a way that they felt comfortable with, right? Because I mean,
00:53:15
it's like we're trying to break news, but we we had to always keep in mind that it's not just news to two families,
00:53:22
it's their lives. How do you balance gathering the news and trying to report on that with ensuring you're not doing
00:53:30
harm or or hurting people who care deeply about this because it's literally their lives. So, they were very patient
00:53:37
with us and that was something that we always strive to honor was our relationship with them in terms of
00:53:44
saying we're going to we're going to respect you. we're going to um be compassionate and we're going to ensure
00:53:50
that you get this information and that we explain to you why we think it's newsworthy. So, that was helpful to us,
00:53:56
too. >> Doug Carter, of course, the former superintendent of the Indiana State Police. If you follow this case at all,
00:54:04
you've probably seen him on television talking about the case. And he always speaks with such emotion that I'll admit
00:54:12
at the very beginning I I was cynical and thought, "Oh, he must be putting on a show." But when you see him behind the
00:54:21
scenes, when there's no cameras present, there's just as much emotion there. And
00:54:26
when you talk with people who work with him, they say, "This is just Doug Carter. He feels things very, very
00:54:34
deeply. He's a very very sensitive and caring man to an extraordinary extent. >> And I want to say this about Doug Carter
00:54:41
because I thought this I I think I I don't know. I think he should write a book on leadership or something because
00:54:47
the choices he made with this case were ultimately about protecting his team. And by his team, I mean his men on the
00:54:56
Indiana State Police who were working this case, but I also mean like the overall team of Deli, which also
00:55:01
included people from other agencies. And to me, it seemed like when he was doing
00:55:06
things like getting up there and doing a press conference and being the voice and
00:55:10
being more of the face, he was providing them a level of cover where they could do the work they needed to do and he
00:55:17
could basically take the public scrutiny. and he would do things like all of the detectives in the beginning
00:55:24
were like working around the clock just working themselves to the bone on this case and he at some point went to one of
00:55:32
them Jerry Holman who was one of the kind of leaders for the state police on this case and was just like you know I
00:55:40
think Holman had been you know he and his wife had been scheduled to go to a concert prior to all this going on but
00:55:46
he's like I'm just going to blow that off and Carter was just no, you're going. And like sent him a car to go
00:55:53
because he was trying to reinforce to them, you have to take care of yourselves and you have to take care of
00:55:58
your team members because we're in this for the long haul. This is a marathon, not a sprint. And if everyone burns out,
00:56:05
you're not going to solve it. You're not going to be able to do anything. So, I think he he led by example. He was such
00:56:11
an impressive person. And you know, when he was when he was okay with writing our
00:56:17
introduction, we were just we were delighted and we were really honored by that cuz we knew how important this was
00:56:23
to him. >> But back to the banana bread, in fairness, I think Becky put laxatives in
00:56:29
it. >> Becky's revenge. I would not blame her. Is is is there something that you have
00:56:37
learned with this deep dive into this case that you will you will take forward into other deep dives into other cases?
00:56:48
>> Yes. For me, it's a sense of humility because there were so many times where Kevin and I would be looking in from the
00:56:57
outside and we would make an assumption and it's not like we would even report on it. we would just have it in our
00:57:03
hearts. We'd make an assumption or we would think the wrong thing or we wouldn't have a grasp on how things
00:57:12
really worked behind the scenes. And I think going forward, I'm just going to be a lot more comfortable saying, "Hey,
00:57:18
I literally don't know what's happening and I'm not going to assume anything and
00:57:22
we're just going to try to dig into this and then I'll start kind of coming to some conclusions." I think it's just
00:57:28
there's no prize for being first when it comes to thinking up something. And in this case, again, as I mentioned, you
00:57:35
know, we were pretty hard on them for not sharing more information. And turns out we were totally wrong about that.
00:57:40
So, I think stuff like that, I'm not going to be as quick to form an assumption because it's like I've never
00:57:46
worked in law enforcement. I've never worked as a prosecutor. That's another example. Uh we were extremely critical
00:57:54
of prosecutor Nicholas Mleland in this because we were like he's hiding the PCA and you know transparency and all that
00:58:02
and like I understand where we were coming from but he had some pretty good reasons for doing what he was doing and
00:58:06
we also were like listen he's a young guy he's you know not he's not really had any really high-profile big cases
00:58:14
yet. Is he ready for this? And then when we saw him in action I mean he was more
00:58:18
than ready. He was amazing. So, you know, I think we we will just try to check our assumptions. We always do when
00:58:25
it comes to trying to report things fairly, but I think even just internally, I might just sort of say,
00:58:31
let's just see how this plays out. And I think there is something extraordinary in the world when you have a situation
00:58:41
where the absolute worst of humanity, the absolute worst things we are capable of as a species exist side by side with
00:58:52
the absolute best of people. This murder, what Richard Allen did, was horrible and that can be overwhelming.
00:59:02
But there's also stories like Becky Patty giving the banana bread. Anya just mentioned Nicholas Mleen. This is an
00:59:09
attorney. His his dream in life is to become a judge. And during the course of this case, he has not one but two
00:59:20
opportunities to become a judge. And when he gets the second one, he even goes to the families and says, "I hate
00:59:27
to do it, but I have to think of my future. I'm gonna I'm gonna resign the prosecutor and become a judge. And they
00:59:34
give him their blessing. But he finds that he can't walk away from the case because he cares about it so much. He
00:59:43
just has such a deep feeling of connection to these girls that he gives up his dream perhaps forever in order to
00:59:52
work to do the right thing and get justice for these girls. And so there is something just very special about things
01:00:01
like that. And I'm always going to try in the future when reporting on some terrible cases to remember that and to
01:00:11
look for the heroism and the grace that also exists within these cases. >> Yeah. Like people like Lieutenant
01:00:17
Holman. This is a guy who's worked as, you know, worked in law enforcement for years. He took this case extremely
01:00:24
personally. I feel like he was the glue that held this group together in terms of what they doing what they needed to
01:00:31
do to stick with it and continue the case. And I know it it stressed him out a lot. I mean, this was something that
01:00:38
aided him for years, but he stuck with it. There's people like Tony Liot. He's now the sheriff of Carroll County. He he
01:00:45
knows what it's like to experience this tragedy to a certain extent. He lost his
01:00:49
teenage son in a in a really horrifying car wreck years ago. And so he was able to bring some of that empathy and he's
01:00:57
the first to note, hey, it's it's different when it's murder, but he he does know the loss of a child. H there's
01:01:03
people like Dave Veto, right? He's very young detective who comes onto this case
01:01:09
and he gets assigned along with some other detectives. They have to look into this really horrible child predator and
01:01:16
and there's stuff that they had to see with that part of the investigation that they'll never unsee. But they stuck with
01:01:24
it. People like Brian Harshman who had to listen to this guy's calls in prison all the time. I mean, all of these
01:01:29
people lost something. The two prosecutors who helped Mleland, Stacy Deiner and James Leil, they did an
01:01:36
amazing job. They they came into this and basically volunteered themselves to help him with it. And I I think that is
01:01:43
I mean the one that really stands out to me though um you know, all these people
01:01:46
stand out to me, but the one that really comes to mind is Kathy Shank. She's a woman who was like the CPS agent of
01:01:56
Carol County for years. Like her whole thing is protecting children and she's this like tiny little lady, but she's
01:02:03
also like a badass because I mean she was just doing this incredible work. You know, I think law enforcement locally
01:02:10
was like pretty intimidated by her cuz you know she was going to come in and she was going to tell you what needed to
01:02:14
happen. So, she volunteered her time with helping these investigators organize their files and be a
01:02:20
receptionist when they had people come in with tips. And she's ultimately the one who found the lead on Richard Allen
01:02:29
and brought it to their attention. And she's a remarkable person cuz she will not take any credit for that. But she
01:02:38
she's somebody who um I think is a hero because she was just doing this out of the kindness of her heart to help the
01:02:44
investigation. And I think people like that are what Kevin's talking about when we talk about the best of humanity.
01:02:51
[Music]