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[Music] [Music] % [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
00:01:45
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man you gave a cookie so
00:01:50
he got you a cookie here is the captain you gave me Cookie I got you Cookie you gave me Cookie I got you Cookie it's
00:01:58
good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a Frank today we are still sipping on
00:02:08
green slush made by Wy Roots Brewing Company tall cans in the air green slush has an ABV of 4.6% and it's a sour ale
00:02:18
with watermelon drink mix don't ask what that means just enjoy garage grade 4 at
00:02:23
of five bottle caps and who is Raising those tall cans in the air with me well it's some of our good friends right here
00:02:30
first up and Captain you will like this one we have a cheers to Jolene from Payton Manning's favorite City Omaha
00:02:37
Nebraska and a big shout to Laura from Salem Oregon next up we have a double cheers to Scott and Lacy drinking it up
00:02:45
in Madison Indiana and a big shout out to Christina and udica New York next we have a big cheers and a Ron Swanson
00:02:53
please and thank you that goes out to Diane in San Francisco and last but certainly not least we have Brandy from
00:03:00
a dry county in Arkansas everyone we just mentioned they helped us out with this week's beer fund and we thank you
00:03:07
yeah be w r beer Ron get you some get you some more True Crime garage by going to our website truecar.com and signing
00:03:18
up for our bonus show called off the Record if you're nasty and that is enough of the business all right
00:03:26
everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some True Crime today's date is July 14th 1999 Wednesday
00:03:34
it's 1309 hours my name is detective Bud Samson we're in the Rena Police Department interview room along with me
00:03:41
is detective William mucklo and detective John leech of the Alliance Police Department also in the room is
00:03:48
Joseph [Music] Isaac can you tell us your [Music] murder in I'll you and I didn't care about life no more
00:04:12
and David knew about it and he took advantage of me and were you having some hard times that I lost my family I lost
00:04:21
all my friends I lost my little brother and sister I lost everything I had nothing anymore
00:04:31
where was her body found the living room so when you walk up the stairs from the
00:04:37
entry room she's right there at the top of the stairs so if everything is as it should be we have a baby up the next
00:04:45
floor up in her room we have two of the children locked in their rooms for the night and then we have Vinnie who may
00:04:54
have been in a crib or in a sleeping situation or may have been roaming the house when whoever came and we don't
00:05:02
have any sign of forced entry so either this person had access to the home or the door was unlocked or yavon knew the
00:05:11
individual and invited them in the way that things were found inside the residence almost would give the
00:05:17
appearance that someone was there with her and things were going smoothly up into the point of of her
00:05:28
murder yeah there's the the is it the dining room table or one of the tables almost has the appearance that two
00:05:35
people may have been sitting there discussing something or sharing cigarettes yeah yeah and then we have we
00:05:42
have the this is a a a very interesting angle of this case too is that the killer
00:05:50
either knew or felt comfortable enough that either a none of the children would be able to identify them or B none of
00:06:00
the children saw what they did and left all the children unharmed yeah and actually not only were
00:06:08
they unharmed but the the other thinking is that Vinnie always slept in his diaper
00:06:15
and Vinnie was fully dressed when he was found he was not covered in blood you know assuming if he was crawling around
00:06:21
and found his mom he'd be covered in blood he was fully dressed which he cannot do himself again he has a severe
00:06:28
disability he could not dress himself so the thinking has always been that somebody took care of and dressed Vinnie
00:06:37
so not only did they not harm the children but took care of one of the children which is yes A possibility one
00:06:43
and but two could just be happen stance that for whatever reason he was dressed still dressed from from the night he
00:06:50
could have been and just never made it to her body to get you know blood I mean but that's the thing too like there was
00:06:56
you know I stress a lot in the season the crime scene and how how brutal it is and that is 100% not for any kind of
00:07:04
shock value it is because the crime scene is so important to who did this I mean when you look at it it is so
00:07:12
gruesome and bloody and there is overkill I mean the TV was thrown on top of her um a dresser and a TV were thrown
00:07:21
on top of her after this person decapitated her anyone who's looked at it has said well this wasn't a hit this
00:07:27
looks personal this is so over kill en so that's why you know I talk a lot about the crime scene because it looks
00:07:35
so personal so it's and then when you think about that if you think okay this is someone who knew her they were angry
00:07:41
at her maybe it was a father of one of the kids maybe this person did know Vinnie really well so a lot of her
00:07:48
immediate family were looked into and surprise a lot of them had reason to kill her her dad was allegedly sexually
00:07:55
abusing her and her sisters for years and she thought that he was doing it to her kids too you know her mother-in-law
00:08:03
hated her because she was taking the welfare checks from Vinnie and the Mother-in-law was taking care of her so
00:08:09
when you look at this crime scene it does not look like someone was hired to kill her it looks like somebody who knew
00:08:15
her did this and took care of Vinnie on their way out well they even suspected David's girlfriend for a while right
00:08:22
because yes because you have this situation where you're dating this guy now he's having a baby with his X is
00:08:30
kind of a odd situation yes and we get into Amy in in the coming episodes but you know Amy is interesting because her
00:08:38
and Yvonne hated each other obviously they're both you know in love with the same guy and there's kids involved but
00:08:45
you know the thing has always been is Amy would actually be the last person that was able to get into ivonne's house
00:08:51
because if Yvonne even saw Amy at her doorstep everyone who knew Ivonne was like oh no she would have beat the [ __ ]
00:08:57
out of Amy immediately she wasn't getting in the house so it's just really interesting Amy of course had a motive
00:09:04
but would she even be able to get in the house and then we go back to this hole we find out she's a sex worker that
00:09:10
could be why there's a lock on the door to lock the kids in so they don't walk out on something right um so did she
00:09:17
have one of her John's over that night there's just so many people and it's yes Joe sounds convincing and yes this could
00:09:26
be what happened but then when I look at the crime scene and I just again go no no way this was
00:09:32
Joe this was someone she was sleeping with or somebody that she already has a baby with it wasn't Joe hired as a hit
00:09:39
it's it's very confusing well there have been people that have said that the way
00:09:43
that they found the crime scene as you said the TV thrown on top of her there what there was a bookshelf overturned as
00:09:49
well it was there was a TV on top of a dresser so the dresser and the TV were on top of her okay so somebody attempted
00:09:55
to to probably in one foul swoop I imagine try to throw of those items tip them over on top of her at the same time
00:10:03
and some have speculated look that might be somebody who's trying to make it the
00:10:08
crime scene have the appearance of a struggle to me I look at that and say no this is somebody that wanted to destroy
00:10:15
this woman that slitting her throat was not good enough watching her expire in just a matter of seconds on the floor
00:10:22
there was not good enough they had to take it a step further and throw these heavy items onto her body as it lie
00:10:30
there lifeless already and you know we we have a certain a certain understanding of and rightfully so
00:10:38
descriptive way of hate crime but one thing that gets lost sometimes in these murder cases is the individual that
00:10:47
kills the victim nine times out of 10 hates the victim hates the victim to the point of
00:10:53
Destruction for whatever reason something happened they feel wronged they feel challenged or or or any number
00:11:01
of scenarios can play out but in that moment In the Heat of the Moment that individual hates the victims so much so
00:11:09
that they want to kill them they want to destroy them and that's what I see when
00:11:14
we're talking about this crime scene here that it was somebody was in such rage that they they took this extra step
00:11:24
it was unnecessary to kill her you know because she's already dead it was unnecessary to
00:11:30
do any of these these further actions before leaving the home let's stay on eyewitnesses because there was wasn't
00:11:38
there another possible eyewitness we talked about the children we we talked about the other eyewitness but there was
00:11:44
another eyewitness that that saw a man and the description sounds somewhat similar to to the to the other one I'm
00:11:51
just a little confused on on what time and where this falls into the the timeline of the 31st than the first yeah
00:12:00
so this this guy very similar he was another neighborhood guy who again just went to the police and said hey look I
00:12:09
think I saw this might be helpful it was actually the night of the murder he said
00:12:13
around Twilight he was walking his dog so who the hell knows what Twilight means he saw a man trying to get into
00:12:22
the house and that's really all we know we know that the police also took him to uh kind of relaxation therapy that
00:12:31
they also took George to to try and get them to remember what they saw George said it seemed more like an
00:12:36
interrogation he kind of seemed like he was hooked up to a lie detector test so they did the same thing with this
00:12:40
witness and nothing came of it um again this was not given to the defense in in Discovery so this was another Brady
00:12:49
violation what we do know about that night is she did have quite a few visitors I mean her house was not this
00:12:57
home that no one went to this quiet mom with you know kids it was really a high trafficked home you know her dad was
00:13:06
there that day we don't know where he was that evening uh we do know he he puts himself there that day we know that
00:13:14
around 5:30 her neighbor was there he was someone who was seen with her he said he went on a bike ride afterwards
00:13:21
um you can't really account for that so that's already two people we know were at her house that day that you know we
00:13:27
don't know where they went afterward at the time of the murder according to Joe he was there that evening so was this
00:13:34
guy one of them was it a different guy that the neighbor saw trying to get into the home around Twilight it just raises
00:13:41
so many questions yeah but the eyewitnesses that are not connected to the family they're just neighbors or
00:13:48
passer buyers they're all putting these individuals well below six foot yeah so the yes so both um George hail and this
00:13:58
other man two separate Witnesses two neighbors don't know anybody involved in this case
00:14:03
say that the the guy trying to get into the home or the guy leaving the home was
00:14:06
about 5'8 dark hair yeah I mean that wouldn't be Joe either way assuming that you know that what they saw actually
00:14:14
happened so George hail was on the stand for the postconviction hearing when they
00:14:20
went back to court for the Brady violation for George hail and on his cross is when he kind of came across as
00:14:27
a weak Witness I I personally don't think George hail is but cross-examination can always Shake
00:14:33
people and basically on the cross the prosecution got him to say he just didn't know if the man was leaving her
00:14:41
house or if he was just he he couldn't for sure say if he was leaving the house or not I believe George I've I've seen
00:14:48
his interviews with you know reputable investigative reporters who have looked into this case I his story has always
00:14:55
been the same and I I do think he saw somebody leaving the house that morning um whether it was the murderer whether
00:15:01
it was someone who had some kind of appointment with her that morning and stumbled in and found her dead body and
00:15:08
was like oh crap um but I do believe George saw somebody leaving that house after she was dead and Twilight
00:15:14
typically is I I think everybody has a little bit of a different definition for what TW Twilight is it's one of those
00:15:21
things that you hate to hear a witness say because it it could mean different things to different people but I always
00:15:27
think of it as like the time of when I can no longer see the sun in the sky but there's still it's still light out so
00:15:35
around sunset or or slightly just after which is interesting because that plays to the the 7 PM I always thought it was
00:15:45
a teenage vampire movie the time frame at the at the earlier part of that time frame but Team Edward how else are they
00:15:52
coming up with that 7 P.M is it is it because there is somebody that says they spoke to yavon
00:15:59
what it 5 or six o'clock that night so that was the neighbor that was seen with her at 5:30 yeah okay yeah and then but
00:16:06
he's a bit wasn't he a bit of a creep himself yes okay um he's definitely an odd guy we talked to him in the podcast
00:16:16
but you know we don't really we don't we do not think he was involved um again this looks like Overkill I mean he's a
00:16:24
tiny little guy he's weird I just don't see we just didn't get that from him what is his motive what would he be so
00:16:32
pissed off about yes maybe he was a peeper but other than that I mean the guy has no record he just seems like he
00:16:39
still lives in the same house I mean if you murdered this girl you would think he'd probably leave I mean there was
00:16:44
just many reasons to make us think like you know he probably wasn't involved and
00:16:49
I'm with you I don't think he lines up and I find it interesting that he speaks with you guys all these years later it
00:16:54
doesn't seem like he's dodging anything here hasn't moved away but I will throw this out there when we go into motive
00:17:02
and things of that nature is I have seen in more than one case where we have an individual that is
00:17:11
very much like this that did commit the crime and what where I'm going with this
00:17:16
Maggie is that this guy would see men in and out of yvon's home all hours of the
00:17:25
day and then he's over there gets inside she's invited him in she rejects him and
00:17:32
then his mind goes to she doesn't say no to anybody else why is she saying no to
00:17:38
me what is wrong with what is wrong with me and then it then he turns on her so I've seen that in some cases I'm not
00:17:45
saying that's the situation here we know that yavon could be described as promiscuous I'm not saying that there
00:17:51
were men coming in and out of her house at all hours of the day although it seems like that may have been the
00:17:59
situation yeah yeah exactly and you know we think about that too with Joe maybe that Joe did do this and he also got
00:18:05
pissed that she rejected him and he just kind of lost it the interesting thing and I'm curious to hear what you guys
00:18:11
think is you know I guess we could put Jim aside the neighbor but I want to talk about Joe because I don't know as
00:18:18
much about Jim I just know he doesn't have a record I mean everything we know about Joe is he is this kind person yes
00:18:25
he's troubled but it never seemed to manifest in a violent deviant way um Joe's friends said he didn't even really
00:18:32
do drugs I mean he smoked weed and drank um so you know he's this kind nice kid would he suddenly just snap and become
00:18:43
this rageful killer when he had nothing like that in his past I'm just curious to hear your thoughts well he has a lot
00:18:51
of trauma in his past so to me that would give him the capability the thing I can't get over
00:19:01
with with Joe is um a couple things one the confession before he talks to police because he's basically telling
00:19:13
people I did this before he even talked with police yeah um allegedly did I put that I put that in the podcast I
00:19:20
couldn't remember well and maybe that's something that we need to to address here if if you're able to is what would
00:19:27
be the motivation of this Miss Moore and Mr Campbell for their statements that we
00:19:33
spoke with Joe wils on the day of the murder and and he says I'm I'm here to you know I've been hired to kill someone
00:19:41
for for whoever but what would be their motivation for their statement because the captain's absolutely right that's
00:19:50
that's how they find Joe wils and that's something that if if he did tell them that it's very difficult for anybody to
00:19:57
go he told somebody that and then that night someone he knew was murdered y um I'm sorry but it it gets very difficult
00:20:05
to to get past that one it is not so much for David not so much for David Thorne because again there are a million
00:20:12
different scenarios that we could have Joe wils as the actual murderer here and David Thorne didn't have anything to do
00:20:20
with it and he just had the the worst luck in the world that he interacted with this guy and was friends with this
00:20:26
guy before and after absolutely I mean we we think about this all the time so Rose and Chris are interesting so I I
00:20:34
mentioned you know we rack our brains every day trying to think about what would their motive be we don't know one
00:20:41
of our hypotheses is you know Chris did get a lot of trouble with the law he was
00:20:45
actually arrested like a day or two after he told police about this you know we've we've speculated he could have
00:20:53
been an informant they just needed to lean on him for this and Rose was his girlfriend friend and he just told her
00:20:59
to shut up and just stick to the story and whatever you know it could have been any sort of combination of that I I
00:21:06
don't know what their motive would have been I don't know if they lied what I do
00:21:11
know is that their stories are odd there they change a lot between no it was definitely not a pocketknife and then by
00:21:19
trial it was a pocket knife I find that something really difficult to get around
00:21:23
how do you mistake an 8 in Blade and then suddenly a PO it's a pocket knife you know specifically mentioned a sheath
00:21:30
I think that's weird his clothing changed colors they say he was in a white Nike tracksuit at the mall um the
00:21:38
pants that he found were black that doesn't bother me as much you know people can mistake colors all of our
00:21:45
memories are not perfect but you know there are just weird things about them in Joe's confession he never mentioned
00:21:52
seeing them he says I was at the mall and blah blah blah they specifically asked did you tell anybody about this so
00:21:58
it's weird it's it's just weird it's one of those Mysteries that I don't know if
00:22:03
we'll ever have answers to what happened at that at the mall and if they lied or
00:22:09
why they lied if they did well when they they come forward it's three months later so it's it's easy to go okay maybe
00:22:17
they didn't remember what color pants the guy was wearing it's it is weird that that Joe isn't a little more
00:22:25
upfront about having talk to somebody that night when he seems to be giving the police everything else that they're
00:22:31
asking for during the course of that confession the one thing though that I find interesting is do you see is there
00:22:42
a road that investigators could take that somehow leads them to Joe wils through
00:22:51
David Thorne and then now 3 months later we have to we can't say oh we we found Joe
00:22:59
wils by this Avenue we need to create an Avenue that led us to Joe wils because what the jury is going to see in this
00:23:09
case if David would have had a good defense team it would have it should have been pointed out that look for
00:23:16
three months these guys had nothing and they tried to build a case against David
00:23:21
Thorne and they couldn't so you as jurors have to ask yourself why if David is so damn guilty here why did they have
00:23:28
nothing for three months and so now we have this I mean and here's where I'm going with this mag I wonder phone
00:23:36
records Joe wils does he use his name when he checks into the hotel that night it you know there are ways that could
00:23:43
lead you to Joe wils as an investigator that that later you can go back and say you know what Chris Campbell you're not
00:23:50
such a good guy why don't you help us out and we'll help you out a little bit at the same time because we need
00:23:56
somebody to tell us about this Joseph wils guy exactly oh and that that girlfriend of yours that uh can you
00:24:03
think you can get her to go along with your statement well that's the thing too they knew that they were at the mall
00:24:08
that night and and it's just so interesting because Joe has never denied seeing them but he
00:24:16
has said it was just a casual conversation you know it wasn't something that stuck out to him when
00:24:22
he's being interrogated by the police and telling them every accounting of his day so it's just I and I'm with you on
00:24:29
that maybe that's exactly what it was that's why you know we have really been looking into was Chris an informant of
00:24:37
some kind did he have relations with the police could they have leaned on him it's all possible there's so many
00:24:43
possibilities in this case yeah the other thing that bothers me is the child when he says that he saw Jeremy or or
00:24:53
what was the other name Jimmy or Jimmy sounded like he gave two or three there was another name yeah they were all J
00:25:01
names right which goes along but it wasn't Joe yeah but it goes along with Joseph where maybe he just can't
00:25:09
remember I know it started with a J so it's Jeremy or you know or whatever it is so I
00:25:15
think that has always bothered me and that's very interesting Captain because we know by Joe's own statements that he
00:25:24
had seen he had been to yavon at least once maybe twice is that right Maggie no more than maybe
00:25:30
two times according to him three times if we include the murder yeah it's one of those kind of murky murky areas so
00:25:38
Captain might be hitting on something here with this child may be trying his best to help but because he's only met
00:25:46
this guy once or twice or or you know maybe he's having trouble placing the name and and he's getting close with the
00:25:55
Jay names and uh that's a very interesting thing I absolutely agree with you guys I don't think we can
00:26:00
really you know just brush aside what Vinnie said and I think you know every one of these things on its face is not
00:26:07
you know major but when you put them all together it's it's really um confusing I'd say
00:26:16
well I have a questionus I have a question for you Joe has recanted his confession
00:26:22
before is that is that when he's recanting the confession is he saying I I wasn't there I didn't murder
00:26:30
anybody no he's always put him there himself there he says he didn't do it he says he he walked in and she was already
00:26:38
dead and he panicked and [Music] left this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays
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[Music] freedom [Music] so if he wasn't there with the purpose of being paid to commit a homicide why
00:29:05
in those statements is he there he at all one statement he went to invite her to a a hotel party in one statement
00:29:13
that's why he's at the hotel yes and another statement he's there to have sex with her again she could have rejected
00:29:20
him and he flies into a rage does something that he almost immediately regrets and and now lucky him see that's
00:29:30
one thing the other issue that I have with getting away from the possibility of Joe wils as the actual murder because
00:29:38
you know you said well he didn't have much of a record or didn't have a record and and he didn't do drugs yet by his
00:29:43
own admission in in that confession regardless of how they got to that statement it is still his sworn
00:29:50
statement at the time he says I did I did some drugs that night uh before going over there to kill her and then
00:29:58
later his own words again to save my own ass I said you know I had to tell them that David Thorne hired me and so it's
00:30:09
like is this guy smart enough and you said he's no dummy is he smart enough to be creating ways to save his own butt I
00:30:18
think so I was I was so high on these drugs when I killed her I didn't know what I was doing I was out of my mind
00:30:24
man oh and uh if that doesn't work and need somebody else to to save my butt I can blame some of this on David Thorne
00:30:31
and may maybe I called him the next day for for no reason other than because we were friends and and I know that maybe
00:30:39
they might be able to find he called David to confess called him to confess there's any number of things and we we
00:30:45
see if in fact all the things that everybody says about David Thorne and Joe wils relationship is true other than
00:30:53
this murder part given Joe's background and how he was raised and the horrible environments that he was raised in and
00:31:01
then David being a little older it looks like d David kind of takes him under his
00:31:06
his wing he you know we know David's a car guy he gives him some kind of junk car that that somebody like David could
00:31:13
fix up and that he would he would actually have a vehicle so he could get to and from a job and David says you
00:31:19
know like look I'm not doing I didn't do favors for this kid because because I hired him to kill my ex-girlfriend I did
00:31:28
favors for the kid because one I wanted to help him out but two I would help him
00:31:32
out and it would create inconveniences for me now now this guy's always reaching out to me can you drive me here
00:31:39
can you drive me to my I'm gonna lose my job if somebody doesn't take me there and you know I can get this kid a
00:31:44
vehicle for a few hundred bucks and it helps him out but ultimately helps me out as well yeah absolutely I I think
00:31:53
you know there there's so many possibilities and we haven't even gone into you know the fact that the cops the
00:31:59
cops didn't at the beginning think David actually had anything to do with this by
00:32:04
their own admission they went to the psychic I mean and that that is the biggest bombshell of this whole case is
00:32:12
what the police say to the psychic well let's let's Circle back to that Maggie before we get too far away from
00:32:17
something else that I'm very intrigued on I I I always love when we cover cases I I want to hear the suspects I want a
00:32:25
roll call of the suspects and let's start with the J suspects because we were talking about Vinnie trying to help
00:32:33
out saying I saw a Jimmy or a Jeremy or somebody with that sounding name hurt my
00:32:40
mom pushed my mom interestingly enough there is a Jeremy in this case and there's a Jimmy in this case who is the
00:32:46
Jeremy and how is he tied to our victim yeah so Jeremy is a family friend it's um Eric who's ivonne's boy Boyfriend
00:32:57
Baby Daddy it's his mother's boyfriend okay so Jeremy you know knew Vinnie very well actually
00:33:05
because Vinnie was living with him and Linda Vinnie was not in yvon's custody she pretty much gave Vinnie up at Birth
00:33:13
because he was disabled she couldn't really take care of him and she gave him to her her boyfriend's parents to take
00:33:20
care of so Vinnie was raised by Jeremy and Linda for the most part so he would know Jeremy if he saw Jeremy and one of
00:33:28
the names of Jeremy if the if there was a motive for Jeremy to be involved or have done this it would be simply all
00:33:37
tied to the boy Vinnie they're practically raising Vinnie the majority of the time not practically they are
00:33:43
raising him the majority of the time they're his main caregivers as it sounds to me yet yvon is getting the disability
00:33:51
checks from the state and she's using them to fund her lifestyle or raise her other children exactly well again I
00:34:01
think the whole idea of you know if she's having if she is a sex worker and having guys coming in and out of house
00:34:08
that creates a motive for almost any male that's in her life like you said they come on to her or they think well
00:34:16
she's uh saying yes to all these guys she'll say yes to me and if she doesn't there's a lot of guys that would go into
00:34:24
a rage and then the there also a Jim or a Jimmy in this right and that's the neighbor that we talked about Jim is the
00:34:33
neighbor who also knew the kids I don't know how well they knew him I mean According to Jim you know him and Ivonne
00:34:40
would just hang out outside in the yard sometimes and the kids would run around his yard because their yards connected
00:34:45
there was no fence between them so it seems like he knew the kids but certainly not on the level that Jeremy
00:34:52
did and if he were in fact the guilty party it would fall into what the captain was just talking about there
00:34:59
where this would be he had some kind of infatuation or obsession with with this I mean she was a very beautiful young
00:35:06
woman and again if you have a scenario where he thought they were friendly and all of a sudden she rejects him or calls
00:35:16
him a name or finds him inadequate or anything you have those possibilities one person that I want to hit on before
00:35:24
we get into the amazing wonderful Alliance Police Department and how fine and fantastic of a job they just
00:35:32
continue to do I want to talk about somebody that if in fact the things that I've heard about this individual on your
00:35:39
podcast make him probably the most disgusting and Despicable individual that's referenced so far I I understand
00:35:47
you have some episodes to get to but Sherman let's talk about Sherman because I have Sherman Sherman Sherman if I'm
00:35:54
looking at this case from a clean slate that's the guy that I want to talk to the most and the people around him are
00:36:02
the ones that I I want to ask about Sherman the most off the bat I've called him the number that I have for him isn't
00:36:08
working I've reached out to the kids to ask them you know for a number I have tried to reach him and I can't so um
00:36:17
Sherman you know again they're Jehovah's and they live a very quiet life but we have heard from her friends a lot of
00:36:28
horror stories about the abuse that he put her and you know very recently we heard from another close friend and her
00:36:35
sisters we believe were were also maybe abused by him sexually and we do know that Yvonne thought that it was possible
00:36:44
he was doing this to her kids and she actually set up a video camera in her house with tapes Eric's actual dad not
00:36:53
Jeremy Eric's dad Fred helped her set up videotapes AP es to try and catch Sherman in the ACT um this was Fred's
00:37:01
one of Fred's statements before he passed away so we have not been able to like a nanny cam type situ but of course
00:37:07
it was you know 1999 so it's like a giant camera that you could see in some of the crime scene photos on top of her
00:37:12
fridge and those tapes were collected and and Fred had asked for the tapes back and he never got them so we don't
00:37:17
know what's on those tapes they don't seem to exist anymore but um yeah you know Sherman to me too like you know
00:37:24
what if yavon was pregnant with kid what if one of these kids is Sherman's kid that that has certainly crossed our
00:37:31
minds that could be the reason why the one kid has certain disabilities and I mean anything is possible um you
00:37:39
know the more we've talked to people who knew her the more it seems like the abuse was pretty severe it seems like
00:37:47
you know even their mother probably knew in a lot of these cases they know and there's nothing they can do or you know
00:37:53
they're also abused you know again these are all allegations I'm not saying Sherman did this this is just what we
00:37:58
have heard from multiple people um and I we've thought about him as a suspect and
00:38:03
the thing that we just keep coming back to is I don't think that he would have wanted this attention they really seem
00:38:11
to recoil from it and not necessarily in a way of like we did this it seems like
00:38:17
they really just do not want this attention at all they have never spoken to Media they've never been a part of it
00:38:24
they you know kind of wrapped it up it was quiet and again that could be because he knows some dirty things are
00:38:30
going to lead back to him or again because they're quiet people and he just wouldn't murder his daughter because he
00:38:35
doesn't want all this attention is something we've really thought about I don't care who you are nobody wants to
00:38:41
be known as an you know an incest driven sexual predator and um so one thing that
00:38:51
we see here in this case is the potential of a possible cover up and the reason why I bring him up and you know
00:39:02
there's another cover up possibility that we're going to quickly get into and move along to here but with Sherman in
00:39:09
relation to him if there were to be another type of cover up if she was killed you know that's one of the
00:39:16
leading motivations for murder in anywhere is to cover up previous crimes and if in fact Sherman is guilty of the
00:39:26
rumor that you have heard then it seems to me like that would be something that he may want to cover up maybe he went
00:39:34
there that night to try to reason with her or threaten her to keep her quiet or to collect those tapes maybe she
00:39:43
threatened him that's one thing that I think we haven't really touched on much is yvon's personality she didn't seem to
00:39:50
me to be much of a a take a lot of [ __ ] kind of person no she actually she was
00:39:56
not um she was feisty would be a very polite and kind way of of describing her yeah
00:40:03
so so we have found out you know through our reporting that yvon was a scammer in
00:40:09
a sense she would Shake people down so the idea that you know she was threatening her dad to expose him is
00:40:17
very plausible uh maybe she did catch something on that camera and he went over again he puts himself there that
00:40:23
day I have no idea where he was that night of course we don't have any recorded interviews with him from the
00:40:30
police um so that's really helpful when trying to go back to this investigation there is not a single interview with him
00:40:37
so we don't really know where he was that night what he was doing at all and one thing that doesn't sit well with me
00:40:43
about Sherman and it's coming from law enforcement's own mouth when they went to talk with her mother they say even
00:40:53
now she's a shell of a individual and so if you happen to hear you know your husband say well that's it she's dead to
00:41:03
me and then you end up finding her dead the next day there's going to be doubt in your
00:41:10
mind so you know it's one thing to find your your dead child but then if you know on top of that that your husband's
00:41:18
responsible for it that put you in a very scary situation yeah I think Tanya was in a
00:41:26
scary situation before the murder too I think that was just a dark household you
00:41:31
know the abuse that she endured if it is true would certainly explain why you know she was allegedly so promiscuous
00:41:39
and having children at 16 a lot of it you know makes makes sense um she was sexually traumatized
00:41:46
and you know that that's that's often what happens but yeah so you know there's and I know this is what you want
00:41:54
to talk about you know there's no interview with Sherman because the police did a really not good job with
00:42:00
this investigation so yeah we can talk about that well yeah and real quick before we
00:42:06
move on in regards to the tapes if they existed or or what was on them we don't know as you said they we can't find them
00:42:14
uh today and one thing with those those tapes and yvon's personality and attitude and being a possible victim to
00:42:25
sh or maybe her her kids are victimized by this guy there doesn't necessarily have to be
00:42:32
anything incriminating on those tapes for him to want those tapes to go away bad enough to potentially do something
00:42:40
like this it could just simply be the threat of those tapes of her saying you know I got a video camera running in
00:42:47
here all the time you know I've been taping you while you're over here that doesn't necessarily have to mean that
00:42:54
that she caught anything on camera just that it was happening and he perceived the threat of being outed because of
00:43:04
that camera now just so we don't dance around the subject anymore why don't we talk about the alliance PD as it were
00:43:16
1999 and I understand that they've made a lot of effort to clean things up there
00:43:22
since then it but it was not the most well-run oiled machine back then as we would want it to be as Citizens and
00:43:30
taxpayers and a lot of that comes out in those tapes when we have detectives talking with the psychic and thank you
00:43:38
Maggie for including that in the series because that psychic woman just amazing she she's looking at these detectives
00:43:46
and going why haven't you guys looked into this why is yavon hanging out with so many cops why is she friends with so
00:43:53
many cops why are there so many married offic offers Married with Children officers that seem to be friendly with
00:44:00
her some have some kind of relationship with her yeah these cops mlo and Samson never thought the these tapes would see
00:44:11
or hear the light of day ever ever ever ever this was one of the Brady violations at trial this was never
00:44:16
presented it was hidden they got it in the post conviction and the the tapes actually I got the attorneys never had
00:44:24
the tapes that I know of they have the transcripts so this is the first time anyone's hearing the tapes and it's just
00:44:34
it's like you said the psychic I mean it's just jaw-dropping at what they are telling the psychic about their own
00:44:40
department and people that they had heard officers were sleeping with her you know for money um and she asked if
00:44:50
they ever looked into any of these people and they're like no did you look into you know the dad no did you look
00:44:56
into Jeremy well I guess we should do that they honed in on David and it seems like they really we don't have a formal
00:45:04
interview with Jeremy don't have a formal interview with Jim we don't have formal interviews with any of these
00:45:10
officers that were allegedly sleeping with her half of these we don't even have interviews with so if they spoke to
00:45:15
them where is that why would you not speak to her father that you tell this psychic was abusing her um it's just
00:45:23
mindblowing that the entire case File is David and then Joe and you know so the department at the time um I do a
00:45:34
whole episode on this because it's you know I could do five episodes on it um in
00:45:40
1998 the chief chief black and eight officers were fired for severe corruption for stealing guns drugs and
00:45:49
money from the evidence room and your guess is as good as mine as where the guns drugs and money were going when
00:45:55
they were stealing it so you know at the time of her murder the department is in chaos there are
00:46:01
still folks that are you know seriously corrupt who just were not caught and fired it was just it was it was
00:46:08
incredible what was happening at the time in the department and then this young mother is murdered and the
00:46:15
investigation was so poor it will just blow your mind I mean and to simplify it almost seems like law enforcement went
00:46:24
okay well it's either Eric or it's David and Eric's in jail so it has to be David oh wait David was at
00:46:36
at this uh wrestling class and there's he has a three count counties away and he has solid Alibi not just one person
00:46:46
multiple people and then they just kind of stop stop the investigation for three
00:46:52
months that's that's how the exactly that's how the case files are there's nothing from May there's nothing from
00:46:58
June whoop all of a sudden we have Joe wils in in July I mean I just think it's really bizarre what were you doing in
00:47:08
that time well and for those not familiar with the case we should point out here that David Thorne is at this
00:47:15
martial arts class this was routine this was a once a week thing that had gone on
00:47:20
for weeks prior to this this was not him going out of his way to be several counties away conveniently at the time
00:47:28
of the murder these guys it doesn't seem like they were starting a murder investigation it seems to me like they
00:47:36
were starting from scratch because they just didn't know what to do or how to conduct this type of investigation not
00:47:44
with any T kind of efficiency or thoroughness that's going to seal a conviction you hear the psychic when the
00:47:52
detectives give her information she's looking at them and you you can you hear it in the tone of her voice when she's
00:48:00
throwing questions back at them she's like you guys didn't look at that you guys didn't look at this you didn't you
00:48:06
you can tell she wants to look at these two guys and go is this your first day on the job did you did you just get
00:48:13
deputized this morning because uh all these things that are obvious to a psychic woman didn't appear to be
00:48:19
obvious to these detectives or they turned their heads away from it and did not want to look in those directions I
00:48:26
think I think that's you know we talk about this too is if someone else killed her the police
00:48:34
certainly had motive to cover it up because of whatever was going on with them they just wanted to brush it under
00:48:40
the rug and none of you know none of their sex with her or even maybe drug connections I mean the police tell the
00:48:48
psychic they found weed at the crime scene marijuana there is no marijuana in evidence where is that Mar Marana that
00:48:56
you allegedly found at this crime scene so whatever happened in this murder I think the police definitely wanted to
00:49:05
brush it under the rug very quickly um for their own sake well that's a good point too
00:49:11
because one of the things I wondered is we have this girl dead you know that there's officers that are having some
00:49:19
kind of sexual relationship with her at that point you either have to turn this investigation over to somebody else or
00:49:27
you have to figure out which officers are having a relationship make sure they have nothing to do with the case and
00:49:34
then when you say oh well they found weed and it goes missing well probably because she got that weed from a police
00:49:41
officer or there's some connection from that weed again and that's I mean they were literally stealing guns drugs and
00:49:48
money from the evidence room and like I said it's anyone's guess where that was going there's missing marijuana from her
00:49:54
house and I mean you put the pieces together it just is really shady it sounds to me like there's a portion of
00:50:02
their evidence room back in the 90s that was set items that are set aside for an
00:50:08
officer's only barbecue that was probably happening on the rig you know oh we got some weed and cocaine for free
00:50:16
oh you like collecting guns here you go buddy you know let's get together officers and wives only and let's have a
00:50:23
big blowout this wives sound like to me yeah regardless of where it came from or
00:50:28
how she got it but the the thing here too and I hate the term police cover up because I think it's way overused and
00:50:35
that takes away from the severity of the situation when you use a term way too much and use it when it's not necessary
00:50:43
in most cases they go oh well this cop knew the victim so clearly the whole Department's covering it up nay nine
00:50:53
times out of 10 what I've seen in these invest vations they don't mind busting and popping one of their own they want
00:50:59
to get the guilty party here this situation is unique because if what was going on that's been speculated if if
00:51:07
any of that is true they're not covering for the guy that actually killed her because of to to save his butt they're
00:51:16
covering for the whole departments they were doing committing yeah they were committing you know breaking the law
00:51:23
time and time again themselves and so they're covering their own asses by covering for one of their own if in
00:51:30
fact what we've heard has been true yeah no exactly and that's the thing it's so
00:51:35
messy could that guy that have been seen that morning been a cop like George Hil
00:51:41
said sure and he was just you know cleaning up some stuff because he was like oh [ __ ] if there is drugs and stuff
00:51:48
in here we got to get rid of it because it's coming back to us you know it's like all everything is possible I think
00:51:55
what I see here look there again there's no smoking gun that tells me that David
00:52:00
is 100% innocent I strongly question the investigation I even more so question Joseph wils I do see plenty of scenarios
00:52:10
where Joe could be guilty and David just is Collateral Damage I also see scenarios where we have other suspects
00:52:19
that I have to believe I've not reviewed the trial transcripts but one thing to point out here is that Joe had no trial
00:52:26
he confessed and then he testified against David Thorne and not over overly whelmingly convincing in his testimony
00:52:35
against David Thorne either I think you pointed out that he on your show that he
00:52:39
says I don't know is seems to be the most common answer that he gives while on the stand I don't know I I see a I
00:52:47
see a case where we have other possibilities we have other good suspects and I can't believe that the
00:52:55
the defense even made reference to these people the whole thing here is I've always said that your homicide or the
00:53:03
the V the victim if you're a family member of a victim your case is only as good as the desk of the officer that it
00:53:11
your case File lands on and that's the unfortunate truth of these scenarios and obviously there are some better police
00:53:18
forces than others that will always be the truth but one thing that gets lost in a lot of these True Crime cases
00:53:26
especially the ones that are solved is you know we've presented some cases here in the garage where you get these guys
00:53:32
that just get bum freaking lawyers that they they they're happy to take your money but they ain't they ain't going to
00:53:39
do any work for it well that's the thing they paid a lot of money this was a private attorney that they hired David's
00:53:44
family they again they were not broke I mean they used they had money to hire this private attorney well and the
00:53:50
defendant is usually blinded by the idea oh this guy cost a lot of money he must
00:53:56
know what he's doing yeah well I don't know if this guy knew what he was doing or not but he didn't act that way or
00:54:02
conduct himself that way he called three Witnesses the guys on could be facing the death penalty yeah well it reminds
00:54:10
me a lot of the Ryan Ferguson Trial because you have yeah one guy confessing to the crime the other guy
00:54:18
saying I wasn't one I have an alibi but two I wasn't involved at all and then you have a crappy lawyer
00:54:25
that basically says oh well prosecution didn't prove their point so I'm not going to really defend it much how many
00:54:33
episodes Have You released so far and how many more do you have to go so there's 14 and we have six more and it
00:54:42
is with some of the very exciting key people that can answer or just muddy more of this but you know it's um this
00:54:53
is a crazy case and I'm I'm so thankful for you guys for putting it on your Airwaves especially from Ohio because
00:55:00
somebody knows something we have a tip line number now um that people can call um if anyone in Ohio in the alliance
00:55:09
area knows anything the number is 888 863 9550 so I really thank you guys for this
00:55:15
thank you as always for coming on the show we're looking forward to the final episodes of murder and
00:55:23
Alliance murder [Music] [Music] tell thank you guys so much for the support thanks for telling a friend so
00:55:47
much more you can dive into in this case and that's why this week's recommended listening will be murder and Alliance
00:55:56
wherever you get your podcast and join us back here in the garage next week for a new case until then be good be kind
00:56:05
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