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brand [Music] [Music] never [Music] welcome to True crab garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for
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listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man whose favorite movie
00:01:52
is Threat Level Midnight he is the captain you can call me Captain Scar and it's good to be seen and good to see you
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thanks for for listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend today we are sipping on $129 tea
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hoodies I thought it's pass I thought you meant like the FBI was listening into us no no no we've been getting
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bugged because people want hoodies and I thought it's past hoodie season apparently not we have new they're black
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True Crime garage.com and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer
00:03:52
let's talk some true crime [Music] [Music] d on May 11th 2007 Leo left work at Agway
00:04:36
this is a farm equipment and garden supply chain around 6: p.m. he and his best friend and cooworker and now
00:04:44
roommate Caleb mcau got into Leo's powder blue 1984 Toyota Celica Supra for their evening the two picked up a handle
00:04:54
of vodka and cranberry juice for a little mixer five out of five bottle caps Leo and Caleb drove down Route 116
00:05:02
toward East and traveling at 45 to 47 mph the speed limit in this area is 35 mph but soon a police SUV this is a
00:05:14
Chevy Tahoe that's heading toward them from the opposite direction is spotted so Leo slowed down trying to avoid
00:05:21
getting pulled over driving the Tahoe was none other than Corporal Bruce McKay McKay saw that the registration sticker
00:05:30
on the Toyota was expired officer McKay flipped on his lights made a u-turn and now he's chasing down the Toyota
00:05:39
according to Caleb Leo pulled his car into the first available dirt turnout on the side of routes 116 we have dashboard
00:05:48
footage of this and this video will also be at our website at true Crim garage.com the two sat in the vehicle
00:05:56
while officer McKay called in a request for another unit to provide backup on the call McKay said he pulled over Leo
00:06:05
Kenny Sugar Hill PD heard this call and was quickly in route then officer McKay got out of his vehicle now for those
00:06:14
that have not seen this video online there is no audio for this portion of the video and McKay is just off camera
00:06:23
as he approaches the driver's side window so we can't see him all we know about this portion of the stop is what
00:06:31
Caleb later told investigators Caleb says he observed the following from the passenger seat McKay asked for Leo's
00:06:40
license and registration without telling him why he pulled him over Leo refused and asked that another officer be called
00:06:48
to the scene Caleb says officer McKay refused this request Leo started making calls on his cell phone but failed to
00:06:56
get a hold of anyone and then sudden suddenly Leo sped off leaving officer McKay's vehicle sitting in the dirt off
00:07:04
of the side of Route 116 Caleb says Leo was concerned and Afraid of the traffic stop and afraid of
00:07:12
Officer McKay Leo was in route to his family's property which was not far away at all this because Leo wanted there to
00:07:20
be Witnesses in case something should happen yeah and to be clear he's not speeding at like 100 miles an hour he
00:07:28
just drives off off yeah that's one thing that I thought was interesting about this portion of the video he's
00:07:35
clearly not speeding away but officer McKay jumps in his vehicle and gives Chase he is racing at a much higher rate
00:07:44
of speed in my opinion well right to catch up with him with the siren and lights on just a few hundred yards
00:07:51
before the east in line mck passed Leo and slowed to a stop forcing Leo's Toyota to a halt behind him K turned the
00:08:00
Tahoe around to face Leo's car and motioned for Leo to back up into uh a dirt driveway this is a wide dirt
00:08:10
driveway owned by the McKenzie family Leo gestured out the window with his hand indicating to McKay that he wanted
00:08:18
to to pass or as Caleb would say proceed to his family's property McKay was having none of this meanwhile a gray
00:08:28
Chevy silver pickup truck can be seen in the background of the dash cam footage stopped on the shoulder of Route 116 and
00:08:37
presumably observing all of this Leo backed onto the dirt driveway and McKay paused for a few seconds and then
00:08:46
Advanced his vehicle his bumper physically pushing Leo's car up against a front end loader that was parked there
00:08:54
I think it's safe to say he rammed rammed Leo's car rammed him and pushed him into the this front end loader then
00:09:00
suddenly the audio around this time kicks in and we hear the blaring sound of the siren McKay enters the frame on
00:09:10
the right side striding up to Leo's open window and immediately releasing a heavy
00:09:16
stream of pepper spray forcibly into the vehicle spraying both occupants McKay turns to jog away and then an arm comes
00:09:27
out of the driver's side window holding a handgun shots are fired in Rapid succession and we can hear McKay
00:09:34
groaning and pain then the car driven by Leo backs up turns and drives off to the
00:09:41
right out of the frame the dash cam video ends there but this is not the end of this encounter here's what we know
00:09:50
happened from multiple witness statements one thing that gets thrown in here captain that that may be of some
00:09:57
interest to some is that apparently totally uncharacteristically of Officer McKay he was not wearing his bulletproof
00:10:05
vest on this day yeah he was known to always wear his vest so one bullet went through McKay's arm and four hit him in
00:10:15
his side McKay likely in shock stumbled across the road dripping blood trying to
00:10:22
pull his gun out of his holster and that's when Leo backed up and drove in his Direction running his car right into
00:10:30
the back of Officer McKay Caleb later told investigators that he thought this was accidental after all Leo was likely
00:10:39
at least partially blinded by the pepper spray right but then Leo backed up and ran the Toyota forward right into McKay
00:10:49
now now the Toyota is stuck because this vehicle is now on top of the cop as stated in Bad Blood if the the
00:10:59
first attempt was an accident the second certainly was not and I tend to believe
00:11:04
this I I tend to believe it none of it's an accident I mean before you hit the officer with your car you pulled a gun
00:11:12
and shot him multiple times this horrific event still is not over sadly the other vehicle we
00:11:20
mentioned the pickup truck that was sitting on the roadway a few hundred yards away witnessing this whole thing
00:11:26
had two passengers inside the driver was teenager Gregory P Floyd in the passenger seat was his father Gregory W
00:11:35
Floyd the senior Floyd walked over and grabbed officer McKay's dropped service weapon off of the ground he checked that
00:11:45
it was loaded as he walked toward the Toyota's passenger side and he raised his arm and he shot into the car
00:11:53
shattering the window and hitting the driver Leo in the head and the neck the bullets whistled over Caleb's back as he
00:12:02
bent over his knees terrified Floyd yelled to his son to call for help on McKay's Cruiser radio
00:12:12
Floyd Jr as we're calling him he's not technically a junior grabbed the radio in McKay's empty Cruiser and radioed in
00:12:20
officer down officer down I don't you need to come I don't know where you need to you need to come the police officer I
00:12:29
think he's dead the people that the officer was trying to stop all of a sudden just started shooting at him and
00:12:36
then my dad had me stop and then he tried to help the officer that was on the call now according to Caleb as soon
00:12:45
as Floyd shot Le without warning Floyd ordered Caleb to grab Leo's gun and get out of the car or he's going to shoot
00:12:54
him in the face Caleb was convinced that Floyd would shoot him so he decided to not touch the gun he refused to touch
00:13:03
the gun in fact not wanting to give Floyd an excuse to shoot him which is probably the move that saves his life
00:13:10
[ __ ] man I don't know if I would have been that quick on my head feet to come up with that in that situation
00:13:16
especially when you're you're I mean you're terrified instead Caleb sat in the dirt
00:13:23
outside the car with his hands in the air terrified and in tears Floyd took Leo's gun from inside the car
00:13:33
and then took off his shirt to make a tourniquet for the downed officer so now Floyd is shirtless his huge belly
00:13:41
hanging out holding two weapons both pointed at Caleb dad B when officer Philip Blanchard arrived on the scene
00:13:50
and told Floyd to drop the weapons he had to do so a number of times including using some Choice language before Floyd
00:13:57
complied but saying something like easy son I'm quicker than you yeah is so strange then Floyd and officer Blanchard
00:14:07
hoisted the Toyota off of Officer McKay so that a nurse could give him CPR McKay
00:14:14
had several lacerations on his face including having lost the tip of his nose his skull is fractured he had a
00:14:22
shattered pelvis and of course the gunshot wounds his intestines Spilled Out of a severe wound in his abdomen as
00:14:31
he looked on Greg Floyd said about McKay quote he's [ __ ] the cops yelled at him
00:14:38
to shut up McKay is still alive at this time you know CPR is being performed right you can't have this guy in the
00:14:46
background saying the guy's not going to make it people give up in those situations unfortunately the CPR was too
00:14:53
little too late for McKay who was then pronounced dead at the hospital meanwhile no one at the scene checked to
00:15:01
see whether Leo had a puls at this time he did not and he too was in fact dead and it's definitely a disturbing video
00:15:09
to watch knowing that both these individuals lost their lives that's what was strange for me Captain was going
00:15:17
into it I knew what the outcome was going to be but watching it it was it's still disturbing it just happen so fast
00:15:26
it's it's like chaos happens so quickly you can't really prepare yourself for what you're about to see so let's talk
00:15:33
about Gregory Floyd The Man Who so calmly walked up and shot 24-year-old Leo Kenny in the head the man that's
00:15:41
faster than you are 49-year-old Gregory Floyd was a former Marine and offthe grid backwoodsman he and his wife and
00:15:51
son also named Gregory lived just below the poverty line Floyd had had 16 back surgeries and was relying on social
00:16:01
security disability checks to get by his wife was in a car accident and used a cane to walk and she rarely left the
00:16:09
house The Floyds purchased their property with the proceeds of a disability settlement Floyd got after a
00:16:16
back injury he suffered on the job most of their money went to pay for medications Floyd was diabetic he had a
00:16:24
heart attack in 2006 and was on 22 different medic ation including anti-depressants the older Gregory Floyd
00:16:33
father Floyd had been arrested in Georgia in 1981 for selling PCP and pot and was prohibited by law from owning
00:16:44
Firearms which did not prevent him from keeping lots of guns stashed away at his
00:16:50
home he and his wife apparently were both big gun enthusiasts about 10 years before the
00:16:57
fatal traffic stop the police were sent out to the Floyd property when neighbors
00:17:01
turned Floyd in for firing automatic weapons on his property at night on multiple occasions they told police that
00:17:09
Floyd became paranoid when he took his medications both sets of neighbors appear to be afraid of Floyd obtaining a
00:17:18
search warrant for Floyd's Home Police found six guns this is in a May 1997 search Floyd handed them over without
00:17:27
incident but the next day Floyd threatened to sick his attack dog on and shoot a meter reader who was just doing
00:17:37
his job on the Floyd property when police came to arrest him for this incident Floyd went off on a
00:17:44
rant about his constitutional rights he raved to the cops I know you wear vest so I will have to put it right between
00:17:52
your eyes I'm an ex-marine and I don't miss while police were cuffing him Floyd tried to knee one of them in the groin
00:18:01
he posted $150 bail and later pled guilty to attempted assault of a State Trooper he received a suspended prison
00:18:11
sentence of one to three years on the condition that he stay out of trouble it wasn't until after this conviction that
00:18:19
his felony arrest in Georgia was uncovered which revealed that because he had a felony conviction he was not
00:18:26
supposed to own any guns so he was arrested again and another search conducted of his home resulted in seven
00:18:34
more guns being confiscated somehow Floyd managed to evade conviction for the threats to the meter reader and the
00:18:43
gun possession charges and things seemed to calm down for Floyd until this 2007 shooting of Leo Kenny so he could have
00:18:53
something maybe a couple screws loose or maybe it's just a crazy SOB maybe no screws at all right he he lost all screw
00:19:03
he's held together by duct tape and chewing gum so back at the scene of the officer McKay and Leo Kenny
00:19:12
shootings when officer Blanchard asked Floyd if he was okay Floyd said quote I'm fine that was the 43rd person I've
00:19:21
killed I had three tours in Vietnam I'm a marine I know how to use a gun I don't
00:19:27
know who the F he is he's talking about Leo I don't know who the f is under the car meaning McKay but godamn nobody's
00:19:37
going to run somebody over and just run them down two times right in front of me
00:19:43
I've been around the world and I'm not putting up with that crap this is quoted in the book bad blood I mean I I don't
00:19:53
know like you review this and you feel like you're you're reading a movie script well you know it's a
00:20:01
officer so I I mean it takes a lot of balls to get out of your vehicle with no weapon after you see a officer Gunn down
00:20:12
or no screws as we pointed out right and so um I don't know well the day after the
00:20:21
shootings the New Hampshire attorney general held a press conference that stated that officer McKay's d Cam and
00:20:28
Radio Calls had provided the following information McKay observed a Toyota driving on route6 was speeding and had
00:20:37
expired registration I want to cut in for a minute here I have no idea how McKay
00:20:44
would have saw the expired tags the expiration on these tags right they're they're they're
00:20:53
traveling toward one another it seems like a difficult thing to spot and I know that in some states they don't even
00:21:00
put the tag on the front of the vehicle but that that's just an an aside here right well unless they they do have
00:21:08
computers that can read the license plate is is it possible that something triggered it for him that he
00:21:16
didn't have to visual I got you that makes all he had to do was drive past him you're right I I just wonder about
00:21:23
the technology in an area that has three full-time police officers but but who knows anyway he he's got he's got
00:21:31
supervision either way and he saw that it was expired the the statement goes on to say
00:21:37
when pulled over the driver Leo Kenny asked for another officer then drove away McKay pursued and overtook McKay
00:21:44
then pulled in front of Kenny's car forced it off the road and used pepper spray on the driver and his passenger
00:21:52
Kenny then drew a handgun and shot McKay then ran him over another area man GRE gory Floyd observed the shooting from
00:22:00
his truck he retrieved officer McKay's gun he then shot Kenny when he told authorities Kenny refused to put down
00:22:09
his gun the Attorney General concluded quote Gregory Floyd's actions were Justified based upon dangerous
00:22:17
circumstances confronted with efforts to assist McKay end quote Floyd would not be charged and officer McKay died a hero
00:22:26
I wanted to make sure we read that statement because there's a lot of people that have a lot of questions
00:22:31
speculation and suspicions regarding this whole thing that went down well we have crazy Floyd saying
00:22:39
that he doesn't know who Leo is or McKay but there's some speculation that he actually knew officer McKay yes I was
00:22:48
looking for good proof on that speculation to which I could not find it could you no but I certainly saw the
00:22:56
speculation we're not talking about an area where a ton of people live there and the the other weird thing too so
00:23:03
you'd know the officers well but then you have to wonder does McKay know Floyd right it seems likely Floyd would know
00:23:11
McKay or know of McKay because you only have three officers but there's also speculation that Floyd was leaving from
00:23:21
the same place that Leo Kenny and Caleb had just left what I heard as a rumor is
00:23:27
Leo and his buddy are buying their booze buying their cranberry juice and Floyd sees them and actually calls McKay to
00:23:37
let McKay know hey your buddy Leo is here and he has some booze on him mhm and then that's how McKay uh started
00:23:46
pursuing Leo now again I don't know other than the speculation I've heard in multiple
00:23:55
places I can't find that to be fact well after the funerals for the two dead men
00:24:01
a ground swell of anger and protest began some people believe that officer McKay was hardly the innocent victim
00:24:10
hero While others believe that Leo got what he deserved and still others question why exactly convicted felon
00:24:17
Gregory Gregory Floyd was permitted to shoot someone to death and walk away newspapers demanded the release of
00:24:27
officer K's dash cam footage suspecting that he had antagonized Leo tensions ran
00:24:34
so high that officials they formed a committee to encourage an exchange of facts instead of rumors and grudges the
00:24:43
committee did not take sides but issued a report that said that it's likely both
00:24:49
murders could have been prevented if quote either Leo Kenny had more respect for the law or Bruce McCay had more
00:24:58
skill at Conflict Management end quote or both is where you take that statement a little bit further yeah or if Leo
00:25:06
Kenny wasn't carrying a gun so want to get your thoughts here because we discussed our thoughts a bit on the
00:25:13
first arrest from 2003 now we have this this double shooting here where the first video my very basic and general
00:25:23
opinion of the two the first video Leo is annoying defant to the end he won't let up he's pushing and pushing and
00:25:31
pushing and pushing the officer I actually think that McKay handled the first incident very well I I don't know
00:25:39
that I give him an A+ I give him like a B minus which I think is acceptable right I I have like the a total reverse
00:25:48
of opinion on this situation I almost feel like McKay should have been in total control I I
00:25:56
won't say that he got what he deserved that seems like too cruel of a statement or a thought for me to even have yeah
00:26:03
that is but it really feels to me like this is the reversal where McKay was really pushing the envelope and really
00:26:11
could have just controlled this situation in a much better manner no one had to be killed that day let alone two
00:26:18
people here's a difficult thing though is McKay knows Leo for now several years we now know that his behavior his Antics
00:26:28
his aggression his violence is ramping up so you have to keep that in mind that this officer knows this this individual
00:26:37
very well I question how did he know Leo was there I question was the actual reason uh did he get a call from Floyd
00:26:47
did he pull him over and then see that the the registration was expired and I was able to ask my father retired police
00:26:56
officer retired Detective Ive what do you see in this video and one of the things that he thought was interesting
00:27:02
was when you are following a car and you are the lone officer that you wouldn't make a move to get in front of that car
00:27:12
protocol would be just to follow that car until backup comes or until that car stops we don't see that here that makes
00:27:23
me believe that he knew Floyd was behind him that he knew he knew Floyd and possibly friends with him because he
00:27:32
makes a maneuver as if there's two officers there and there wasn't then you get in front of Leo and then you ram his
00:27:40
car now I don't know if that was an accident or if that was on purpose but again you know this individual you're
00:27:48
the officer you're the one that's trying to you should be controlling the situation not escalating it not throwing
00:27:55
gasoline onto a fire if you know that this individual is not stable maybe not mentally stable you are throwing
00:28:04
gasoline on that fire by ramming that individual and I think you can tell that by the passenger in Leo's car and in the
00:28:14
eyewitness and then you go in again instead of waiting for officers instead of uh waiting for backup you go in
00:28:25
instead of trying to talk to Leo you go and pepper spray him throwing gasoline on the fire
00:28:35
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hp.com garage canva presents a true crime of design in the office Maya spots something unusual in the presentation
00:29:46
what's this it was an off-brand font her coworker explains I added the font I thought it was fun it was not Maya
00:29:56
solved it with canva open up canva one click and the font is on brand easy stay on brand and solve font crimes at
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canva.com the home for every [Music] brand Rosetta Stone is the language learning program with a lasting impact
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00:30:51
joining us in the garage and thanks for telling a friend thanks for telling a friend that's right right I got a few
00:30:58
thoughts here Captain mhm and you're going to hear every one of them we don't have time for your
00:31:04
thoughts this is just like a weird weird colliding of Worlds here for me cuz what I feel like is we have four
00:31:13
people in the middle of the situation well five if you include uh the younger Gregory Floyd who was driving the
00:31:20
truck the real victim to me seems like this Caleb individual that's sitting passenger seat in Le 's car he seems
00:31:29
completely terrified and almost Frozen in the moment not really knowing what to do not knowing how to react and here's
00:31:37
the other thing had we had other individuals just not react it wouldn't have gone this far I feel like we have
00:31:45
McKay jumping his vehicle in front of Leos because he's coming up at the end of his jurisdiction at the line that
00:31:54
cuts off his jurisdiction I almost feel like this is a situation where McKay thought you know what I'm going to pin
00:32:01
him down inside my jurisdiction because he fled the scene I'm going to do some uh property damage to his his vehicle
00:32:09
and I'm going to get out I'm going to pepper spray this kid and when the other officer shows up which I know is in
00:32:16
route according to my radio or at least according to what we've been told was said the audio is conveniently not there
00:32:24
or maybe inconveniently not there I don't know how you want to spin that but the easiest thing to do would have
00:32:31
been like you just said before the break to continue to pursue Leo Kenny he's going to run out of gas or stop
00:32:41
eventually we know according to Caleb that he was intent on going to his family's property you could have simply
00:32:49
followed him there stayed inside your vehicle and when the other officer arrived the other officer could have
00:32:57
taken over the situation but possibly the other officer gets killed because I think there's enough evidence to prove
00:33:06
that there was something happening with Leo Kenny mentally um with his mental health I think the look The the victims
00:33:14
are the family of these two individuals because both their deaths are caused by cause and effect and and
00:33:24
adding fuel to the fire and never backing down it's almost like these two bulls that were on a collision course
00:33:33
for the last four years right and that's that's what I'm getting at cause and effect I think the most effective way to
00:33:39
control the situation would have been to continue to to follow the suspect right
00:33:45
and wait for the other officer to take over the situation we can't get into wha ifs after that we we just don't know um
00:33:53
but there is protocol that could have been followed and I think that McKay went out of his way to not follow that
00:33:59
protocol I think he went out of his way to really turn into a bully in this situation where I didn't see that in the
00:34:08
2003 arrest the other thing too and I I want to throw these other stories aside because I really wanted to form an
00:34:16
opinion on what I thought of the situation inside of what we see on camera inside what we hear from the
00:34:24
witness statements later I didn't want to get into this whole Floyd and McKay were friends I couldn't I couldn't find
00:34:31
any proof that the two of them were friends it's just some speculation and I saw a lot of speculation on that the
00:34:38
issue being here is I don't think the two types line up well to be friends one it doesn't seem like Floyd had any
00:34:46
friends it seemed like it would be very difficult to be a friend of his either way it's a two-way street yeah the thing
00:34:54
I argue is that the community is so small that that it would be almost impossible not to think of them as
00:35:00
acquaintances and then the other thing too is we have on the reverse of that M who by most accounts his personality was
00:35:09
he was black and white he was wrong and right and he wouldn't I don't know that he would have been friends with
00:35:15
somebody um of Floyd's character or past so that one seems a little weird to me and that's why I wonder if we just have
00:35:25
a weird situation where three Worlds Collide where you have Kenny who seems to be spiring out of control and then we
00:35:34
have M who with inside this situation is obviously losing control and then Floyd
00:35:40
who knows when's the last time he had any control at all it's just a weird weird tragic situation all foed with bad
00:35:49
filled with bad behavior and fueled with bad blood well and to back up the cause
00:35:54
and effect we have a retired office officer saying hey that's a maneuver to get in front of the person that's not
00:36:01
something You' do unless you had backup so he saw that as being wrong he saw ramming Leo's car as being a way that
00:36:09
you're escalating the situation and then you get out you're not protected if you
00:36:14
were so fearful why isn't your gun drawn uh why aren't you trying to talk to the
00:36:20
individual you do none of that you go up and and pepper spray so those are multiple things that retired police
00:36:27
officer which will normally always go to bat for a police officer saying those don't make sense to me those aren't
00:36:34
those aren't actions I would have done yeah and I I tell you what this might not be a a popular opinion to have but I
00:36:43
do believe that the the Floyd shooting Kenny I agree with the decision that it was justifiable I also think that really
00:36:53
that committee broke it down to the best of what what I believe yeah but wasn't that ruled within like 24 hours yeah but
00:37:02
I'm not I'm not saying I never said that I agree with the time frame in which You
00:37:06
released your your decision I just agree with the the decision yeah right my twoo
00:37:12
my two problems is again because you have a grieving family take a little more time try to be a little more
00:37:20
understanding of the situation and on top of that when you release this V uh video footage why is the audio
00:37:29
compromised was this compromised by Officer McKay or was this compromised by the committee who released this video MH
00:37:39
because that to me seems suspicious and and I think uh the Kenny family has the right to go hey this
00:37:49
doesn't this doesn't make a lot of sense on the same token we have a family that has been dealing with the Antics
00:37:57
and the behavior and I think the mental instability of Leo and I and I wish again we just don't talk
00:38:07
about mental health enough enough and I think sometimes when and somebody's going down the wrong path we we start
00:38:13
thinking that that's alcohol abuse or drug abuse when it really might just be uh imbalance and somebody that needs
00:38:21
mental health help yeah I I do like that committee's decision or or at least their statement of what they said in
00:38:28
regards to both of these murders could have been prevented if either one of these individuals would have behaved
00:38:34
differently or had more respect for the law or each other right you know I think
00:38:40
that that is really what I see here as well and then my thoughts on the audio itself I almost feel like I would like a
00:38:49
statement in regards to that why it is what it is on the the public view of the dash cam footage I almost my my own
00:38:58
personal belief would be that if it was compromised before it was released I feel like they would just have removed
00:39:06
all of the audio rather than have it kick on at the end to notify us that hey it's it's not there and now it's here I
00:39:14
actually don't believe it kicked on at the end I mean I'm telling you it did unless somebody went in it to the video
00:39:22
I've watched it when when it starts to fade in it's it's almost like uh there's a gate almost like there's a gate on the
00:39:31
audio or that the that the audioos just turn way down and because something happens whether it's the gunshots or the
00:39:41
sirens blaring that that's where why you can hear that loud peak of sound but those low-level of a car driving or
00:39:53
McKay talking and radio radio something in would be low enough of a volume that we wouldn't be able to hear right and
00:40:02
that's what I'm getting at I'm wondering if that is something that McKay would have had control over inside the vehicle
00:40:10
yeah I just wish either one or both of these individuals would have had more respect for each other and and there's
00:40:17
no reason either one of them should have lost their lives over this but I guess that's not the complete end of
00:40:24
speculation in regards to to officer McKay because there's some discussion out there that he may be involved or
00:40:33
have some knowledge of another case that we've talked about several times on this
00:40:37
show and that's The Disappearance of Mara Murray and True Crime garage was lucky enough to speak with Aaron Lin
00:40:45
someone who has spent a lot of time looking into the mara Murray case [Music] and I want to thank you for taking the
00:41:05
time to speak with me you're the host of 107° a podcast about the missing person
00:41:13
Mara Murray and one of the leading experts on this case I appreciate that how did you get involved in the mar
00:41:22
Murray case it was sort of a slow process process slow build but I actually was on the track team with Mora
00:41:31
we weren't friends but I remember when she disappeared and then a few years ago I
00:41:37
saw that there was this podcast and I started following up and trying to see like where the case was and learning
00:41:43
more and saw that there was a lot of misinformation out there and thought I might be able to help in some way and
00:41:54
what's your degree in itical science and I have a masters in quantitative methods
00:42:00
in political science and I'm ABD in a PhD program so this was just kind of a labor of love yeah I mean I think that
00:42:09
there was a lot of things that I identified with with the Murray's and the idea that my family
00:42:17
could be going through the same thing was sort of a horrifying thought so um that was definitely part of it as well
00:42:24
so when did Bruce show up on your radar as you looked into the marur case maybe like a year or two
00:42:32
into it I was looking through the dispatch logs and I saw that there was this officer who was unresponsive and at
00:42:39
a at a motel like around 9:30 the nightm disappeared and I thought oh well Mora was looking for a motel maybe I'll maybe
00:42:48
this has something to do with something and so I looked other places where he was in the log and saw that he seems to
00:42:58
have dropped everything that he was doing the minute after the 911 call came in from Faith Westman where they first
00:43:07
reported Mor's accident and from that point from 7:28 forward he was essentially off radio and
00:43:16
unaccounted for so that's what was the first thing that made me a little bit curious about what he was doing Samara
00:43:23
rexor car in 2004 M there's neighbors and we know there's a bus driver that is calling 911 to report this wreck right
00:43:33
this officer Bruce McKay is responding to a suicide call yeah so it was a pretty serious one too because the guy
00:43:43
had had his guns confiscated by police earlier in the day and there's actually a note in the log that says they don't
00:43:50
think that they got them all so then later on in the evening he's threatening suicide and may have guns and may have
00:43:58
um some anger toward police so I would think that that's a situation where you know it's pretty big emergency do you
00:44:06
know what time that call came in so that call came in just before 720 I think it
00:44:12
was either 719 or 717 or something but McKay was the first officer dispatched and that was at 720 so they dispatch him
00:44:21
to respond to this uh suicide call do we know if he would have passed Mara on the
00:44:29
route to this suicide so there's no way to really know where he was when he was dispatched um but there is some evidence
00:44:39
to suggest that he may have been in Woodsville because he made a call earlier in the night around 7:08 p.m.
00:44:47
that appears to be a call to butson Liquors which is in Woodsville so that doesn't mean he was
00:44:55
certainly doesn't mean that he was in Woodsville but he may have been and then you say that he he goes off radio around
00:45:03
what time uh so he's not heard after after he drops whatever he's doing and goes
00:45:09
somewhere else at 7:28 p.m. he's not heard from for two hours and dispatch contacts him and he communicates that
00:45:17
he's at a motel but then doesn't communicate why and isn't responsive when they try to get in touch with him
00:45:24
again so basically the idea once he hits your radar is you see that there's a cop
00:45:32
working in the department that should have been investigating this crash I don't know if he should have been
00:45:39
investigating it necessarily but I do think it's quite a coincidence that he he cleared out of this call that he had
00:45:47
been on his way to for 7 minutes seven or eight minutes before clearing it so something had to have happened or I I
00:45:55
mean he might have run out of gas like anything could have happened but if he cleared it for a reason that was work
00:46:03
related the only explanation would be that he was going to Mor's accident because there's nothing else that was
00:46:11
occurring at the time nothing so we know that multiple officers were dispatched to this call right is there any
00:46:18
explanation of why he would be dispatched to this call and then not show up uh not that I'm aware of I mean I
00:46:27
think it's possible they just decided not to send him and send somebody else in his place like within 15 seconds of
00:46:35
him clearing it there was another dispatched officer that was sent out so it seems like they wanted three people
00:46:42
there right and um and as to why why this third officer the fourth really and not McKay I don't I don't know I mean I
00:46:54
guess you probably know a little bit about McKay's personality at this point maybe it's not the best situation to
00:47:01
send him into uh there could be a lot of reasons but there's no we don't know the
00:47:06
answer but it's on record that he was cleared from the call yes we do he was he was well it just says it was cleared
00:47:14
so it the implication is that he was cancelled out of the call and we we don't know why and I actually went to
00:47:22
the Littleton Police Department and got the police report of that incident just to make sure that there wasn't something
00:47:28
wrong in the log and maybe he did show up but that wasn't the case there were only three officers and they were the
00:47:35
other three officers that were listed in the log mck did not show up right but are you saying that the department told
00:47:42
him not to uh I don't know whether they told him not to or whether he um chose not to for
00:47:50
some reason the problem is that the dispatch logs are a little bit hard to interpret the shorthand of and
00:47:59
so I don't want to I don't want to assume too much but it does say in there that there was an
00:48:07
officer that was had referenced that he was covering a town and asking for another officer to come out it seems
00:48:17
possible that some one of the officers was asking to have another officer be sent in his place place and it just so
00:48:26
happens that that is what happened the first police officer is on the scene with the mar Murray crash at what time
00:48:37
at 7:46 according to the dispatch log and we have no known whereabouts of Bruce McCay for roughly two hours yeah
00:48:48
and then for the rest of the evening as well so even after he he did communicate
00:48:56
to dispatch that he was at that Motel after that he didn't respond either and he never there's no record of him
00:49:03
signing off his shift or anything like that so pretty much the rest of the night we don't know where he was now did
00:49:10
they have to return vehicles at the end of their shift or they did they just drive home in in their own vehicles that
00:49:15
I'm not sure honestly um I'm not sure so other than this call that he was supposed to attend and he never showed
00:49:25
up and then we have no record of his whereabouts other than he claims he was at a hotel uh with no explanation why he
00:49:33
is there it it seems like he couldn't tell his Department was at the hotel because
00:49:39
I was taking a nap but other than that and other than his behavior towards because his behavior
00:49:48
towards Leo was not the only person he was aggressive towards there was other reports what else what other information
00:49:56
do you find interesting about Bruce well I think that for anyone that knows about
00:50:03
the morar case there's all these questions that don't seem to add up like the timeline and whether or not there
00:50:11
was another officer on scene uh before the first official officer arrived and how Mora disappeared so quickly why
00:50:21
eight firefighters two cops and a neighbor all searched West of the accident and no one even did a
00:50:28
cursory search of the East which was the direction that Mor was heading and that
00:50:34
happened to be McKay's jurisdiction so when you when you sort of plug in McKay and overlay him in this whole
00:50:44
in the whole situation some of these things start to make sense how many eyewitnesses do we have claiming that
00:50:53
they saw a officer at the scene of the crash before the official officer showed up at the crash so just one that I'm
00:51:02
aware of that's witness a so she's the one that drove by approximately 10 minutes before the first reported
00:51:09
officer and said that there was the police SUV nose to noose with the Saturn one of the other things she said was
00:51:16
that she she saw that vehicle a total of three times twice it passed her going in
00:51:23
the same direction on the left and the third time was at the accident scene for that to have been possible for
00:51:31
it to have passed her twice it had to pass her go off somewhere and then come back and double back one thing that
00:51:41
could potentially explain how how and why that might might have happened is if McKay is heading to to this other call
00:51:48
to this Littleton call he hears this accident come in over the radio and says hey I'm right in the area I'll go go to
00:51:56
that he could have doubled back and that's when she sees him the second time and and then the third time was
00:52:02
obviously the accident but the timing works out pretty perfectly for for that to have been the case but we have no
00:52:10
evidence of Bruce radioing in and saying hey I can go to this no we don't but one
00:52:16
of the things that I think I don't want to say like about this Theory but is different from some of the other
00:52:24
theories that have been postulated in this case is that it is potentially falsifiable and you can follow up on it
00:52:32
because what we do know is there's a 25 minute recording that the police have in
00:52:36
Mor's file that has all of the dispatch chatter on it from the time that the um presumably from the time the 911 call
00:52:45
came in for the next 25 minutes so from 727 to 7 52 I guess right and if he cleared it at 728 there's got to be some
00:52:57
chatter there they they refuse to release that recording right now uh it's unclear why they refuse to release a lot
00:53:06
of things yes right which is unfortunate because it might answer this question it
00:53:11
could also answer some of the timeline questions uh regardless like this is something that can be followed up on
00:53:18
well like you said if he passed this witness a to head to the suicide call then another call comes in and Bruce
00:53:28
then thinks I'm right around the corner there's other officers going to the suicide call let me double back passes
00:53:36
witness a again gets to the scene but now once he makes contact or once he arrives at
00:53:46
the scene with Mara this would give him a very small window about 10 minutes to leave the
00:53:53
scene yes I mean it's it's it is short but something something happened and um you know 10 minutes is it's not an
00:54:06
insignificant amount of time really could you tell me off the top of your head how many people were calling into
00:54:12
911 at the time of the crash uh there were two two calls there was two and then out of all the people that you've
00:54:18
talked to is do we have any other eyewitnesses other than those two making those calls not that I'm aware of no
00:54:27
because so we have no other neighbors that were possibly looking outside their window well there was uh there were the
00:54:33
morat they were sort of looking out sporadically they weren't like focused and staring the whole time but they they
00:54:41
did look out a few times and see see somebody walking around the car see they actually saw the car being moved right
00:54:47
during the 2 911 calls though we have uh there's two couples two married couples
00:54:53
that are making the calls mhm so we we have at least a total of four people watching the scene pretty
00:55:02
intensely or or less intensely but my point being is that you have a 10-minute window that's not that large you think
00:55:10
that these individuals would keep checking out their window nobody ever reports anything that suspicious but why
00:55:18
would you if another officer showed up was there for 10 minutes left and then you next time you looked out the window
00:55:28
there's another officer you might not even know that that's a new officer exactly it like I think who better would
00:55:36
be able to hide in plain sight and not necessarily um stand out it's just they look out their window they see blue
00:55:44
lights an officer comes to their door they don't have any reason to think that it wasn't the same officer that they saw
00:55:50
10 minutes before when they looked out their window do we have any evidence uh of sexual assaults that
00:55:59
Bruce might have been responsible for or any violations when he has pulled over other individuals I mean so there
00:56:11
were I know that there were a number of complaints about him I don't know how typical it is for any given officer
00:56:19
to have a series of complaints I mean I'm sure they all have some um right but I think that his tended to be instances
00:56:30
where he failed to deescalate situations and he was certainly um reprimanded for breaking protocol a
00:56:41
number of times and I mean not to be insensitive but he sort of met his demise as a result of breaking protocol
00:56:51
a number of times right Fen his own rules be making up the law instead of enforcing it yeah operating outside of
00:56:59
his jurisdiction um using his own personal vehicle to police stuff that really maybe should have given them a
00:57:09
sign that he shouldn't have been a police officer but uh but then besides that yeah he did have a restraining
00:57:16
order uh taken out against him by his wife for domestic violence and as a result he shouldn't have had a gun at
00:57:25
all which is a problem and according to frankonia police they quote misplaced that
00:57:32
record it disappeared yeah it's funny how audio has disappeared with Bruce McCay and now these records dis
00:57:42
disappear and we have really no knowledge if if if the call to the suicide was canceled or if it
00:57:49
disappeared and then and then he goes off radio for multiple hours comes back back on radio with no
00:57:56
clear reason why and then he disappears again correct and so like you said there
00:58:03
was possibly some domestic violence in his past do we know if Bruce had any uh substance abuse issues
00:58:15
um I I'm reluctant to to talk about that because I I don't know for sure right I have
00:58:26
there are some indications that that could be the case but it's it's really impossible for me to say any
00:58:36
other thing during your investigation of the marur case anything else that has stuck out to you about Bruce McCay um
00:58:46
yeah there's so I don't know if you read the part of about him being a a prosecutor for for the town and for the
00:58:58
state so Not only was he a police officer but he also prosecuted cases and called himself as a witness isn't that
00:59:05
like a conflict of interest yes it is and I don't think there are any other states that do that but in New Hampshire
00:59:12
you can still be a a prosecutor and a police officer even despite the fact that you don't have a law degree so you
00:59:20
can be a prosecutor you can be pretending to be a lawyer without a law degree right and without being held to the same
00:59:26
standards as barred lawyers would be and all of that stuff but anyway so he he would actually make money with every
00:59:34
arrest so because he can he can arrest he can charge them and then he he makes the money Prosecuting them right so I
00:59:43
think in that Boston magazine article it said that he he had like 300 stops compared to the other two officers
00:59:50
combined 11 and yeah I think part of that is some obsession with being in authority and a
00:59:58
power trip and maybe some sadistic Tendencies but also he made money it was just like
01:00:05
basic like he just wanted to make money too right so I think that you know when I when I think about what could have
01:00:12
happened if he did encounter her that night I mean did he try to arrest her for leaving the scene of an
01:00:20
accident when she was just trying to make a cell phone call or anything anything he could have arrested her for
01:00:26
but we don't have so we don't even know if he showed up to tomorrow scene and called that in exactly but that could be
01:00:37
on the audio file of the dispatch log that the cops are are not disclosing to the to the public could be anything else
01:00:49
that you have uncovered about Bruce McCay um so far there's a lot of rumors and I'm
01:00:59
reluctant to talk about the rumors because they are just rumors I'm fine with the speculation I mean we're going
01:01:08
forward knowing that they are rumors is there one that you can throw out well for this is not a rumor he he did
01:01:17
actually take out a second mortgage on his house 3 days later okay um after she disappeared and then an additional line
01:01:24
of credit for I think $110,000 a month later that could be entirely unrelated like I think 2004 the
01:01:34
interest rates were pretty low like historically low so right I mean it could mean nothing at all but I did I
01:01:41
did think that was somewhat interesting and as far as I can tell and from talking to people in his world they're
01:01:51
not sure where that money went or what it was for so that's something that I would if I
01:01:57
had the ability to I would look look into further and then about that specific Hotel I mean he was a single
01:02:05
guy and he was known to stay at that hotel from time to time not really making any judgment there
01:02:16
but it is a place that he seemed to frequent with with um female friends yes but like actual like uh females he'd go
01:02:26
on dates with or whatever um are these paid female friends from what I have been told they
01:02:36
may have yeah they may have been transactional I don't know why I'm dancing around this but because it's not
01:02:42
proven and I I want to be really careful about that but right but yeah they people that worked there had noticed
01:02:51
that he he stayed there well and it's it's weird too you wonder you know infidelity is is very high when
01:03:01
it comes to officers um well he wasn't married at the time either so right but but I'm
01:03:08
saying the ones that are married the the rate of infidelity is pretty high so it's so what's weird to me is you don't
01:03:15
hear from your offic there you don't hear from your officer that doesn't show up to a scene for 2 hours when you do
01:03:23
hear from him he's basically says oh by the way I was at this hotel then you don't hear from him for
01:03:29
the rest of the night to me that would be like some red flag yeah but if this hotel was
01:03:36
something that dispatch knew that McKay would frequent or other officers would go to from time to time then when he
01:03:43
calls back in after two hours and hey I was at the hotel they go oh well we know
01:03:48
why he was there you know what I mean like yeah it seems funny to me that he's coming back and saying hey I was at
01:03:57
that hotel and it doesn't giant red flag for the Department to go okay well that's great that you're at the hotel
01:04:04
why why were you there for two hours why didn't you show up to this call right so
01:04:10
I did hear from Chuck West last year he he did explain to me that McKay was at what he told me was that he was there
01:04:22
that night because he was responding to a theft that had been reported and that's why he wasn't on radio and that's
01:04:29
why he was in in the motel that night so I pulled the records for that incident and it had actually occurred
01:04:39
several days before and uh McKay had filed that report Away by Monday afternoon and so I
01:04:47
don't know if officer West just didn't maybe he confused the police report date with
01:04:55
the uh with the incident date right but he he hasn't responded to my follow-up questions
01:05:03
yet um but when I when I got those reports the what I noticed is that there were more than a few times that McKay
01:05:11
called in at that motel and for walkthroughs late in the evening right and I don't know what a walkth through
01:05:20
is I like my I always interpreted that as when somebody comes home and they see like their door is a little a jar right
01:05:28
and they have the the cops like go through and clear basically make sure that there's no bad guys hiding out
01:05:34
somewhere but I don't know what that means for a hotel necessarily yeah maybe possibly the same thing yeah maybe and I
01:05:43
I know that they did have a bar in a restaurant at that point too they don't anymore but right so it could be a
01:05:49
situation like I know in my small town that there was a restaurant that was connected to a bar that was connected to
01:05:56
a hotel and and that was the primarily primarily a place that truckers and a lot of people coming just for the night
01:06:04
would visit so cops would multiple times a night especially on like Fridays and Saturday nights do walkthroughs of the
01:06:12
bar yeah so so I think I guess that's probably what it is um it's a little unclear but yeah which is tough because
01:06:20
when you're looking into this missing person case and you have a couple things that don't sit well with you you think
01:06:29
that these would be answers that uh department for me okay we have this investigator poking her head around
01:06:40
and bringing up some things to our attention why not just give her the answer I don't know I don't know and
01:06:48
unless you can't well that's possible but I do know that last uh when the oxygen show came out there was a a
01:06:58
person who who came forward with a tip after seeing like the first episode I think and it had to do with McKay and
01:07:08
somebody that lives up in the area and the police took two and a half years to call her back wow yeah and so
01:07:19
and just my impression from speaking to them I believe that they believe that no cop could ever have
01:07:27
anything to do with anything nefarious right but I think that sometimes their bias gets in the way a little bit and
01:07:36
they don't want to look into it because even just looking into it perhaps is offensive in some in some way no I think
01:07:44
there's a lot of cops that they're good guys they're solid guys with solid morals just like my father was a a
01:07:53
street cop and then a detective for many years and when you bring these things to
01:07:59
his attention and having him look at Bruce McKay's videotapes it doesn't make any sense to
01:08:05
him and it almost boggles his mind because that is not his personality that's not his set of moral standards
01:08:12
that's not why he wore the badge to Serve and Protect so it becomes this this thing that they can't even it's
01:08:20
hard for them to wrap their head around right and then they become very defensive of officers in almost every
01:08:29
scenario when I sent the videos to my father about this case I was expecting a laundry list of what Leo did and what
01:08:39
the Bruce did but within his rights as an officer and that is not the feedback I got the feedback I got was these
01:08:48
actions don't make a lot of sense yeah and I mean obviously law enforcement as a topic is very divisive in the mmory
01:08:58
world but and of course you always have those people that think that all cops are Sinister and the other side thinks
01:09:08
all they're all Hees yeah but I think if nothing else what the McKay Leo situation proves is that there are two
01:09:17
sides to law enforcement and there are two sides in that area and one of them that was on duty the night that Mora
01:09:27
disappeared is it likely or not likely that Bruce McKay was involved in The Disappearance of Mara Murray I think
01:09:33
that the most likely outcome is like statistically speaking is probably something we've never heard of and a
01:09:41
person whose name we've never heard but of the theories that are out there I think that this one at least
01:09:51
possible holds a little water it it does and I think it's possible that answering
01:09:56
some of the questions about what ha what he was doing that night could potentially lead to answers about Mora I
01:10:04
think that there is circumstantial evidence for sure that he was headed to her accident and that fact even the
01:10:13
detectives in her case have not disagreed with me about they just say that there's no evidence that he was at
01:10:19
her accident right so there possibly could be evidence that would show was that again like we said there that he
01:10:27
cancelled him being dispatched to the suicide call rerouted himself to go to this crash scene shows up at the crash
01:10:36
scene we know that she's in a state that she didn't want law enforcement there even if he did even if he did show up at
01:10:44
the at the scene there's no evidence that he did anything tomorrow but I think it's something that can be
01:10:50
followed up on and should be followed up on and I think almost the worst case that I think is perhaps the most
01:10:58
possible is that he did show up to the scene she wasn't there he kept going but they don't want to let that out because
01:11:05
of his reputation right because of how it could potentially like blow up in their face well and potentially they
01:11:13
don't have answers because Bruce is deceased we we do not have answers and possibly we'll never know what he was
01:11:22
doing at that hotel for about 2 hours and then what he was doing the rest of his shift do you know what time roughly
01:11:28
his shift ended that night uh I believe that he was on the 4 to 11 or um yeah but it's it's unclear because he
01:11:42
he never doesn't actually sign off so I'm not I'm not positive so it's almost four hours three and a half four hours
01:11:48
of his shift that he's unaccounted for and if if that was my employee I would want to know where they were and
01:11:56
what work they were doing all right Aaron thank you so much for joining us here in the garage what's the best way
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for a listener to dive into your investigation of mar Murray probably the podcast it's called 107°
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[Music] moreor what a interesting case mhm do we have any recommended reading this week here we go
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Captain a big cheers goes out to New York Times best-selling author Jr Ward there are more than 15 million copies of
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Ward's novels in print worldwide published in 25 different countries around the globe Ward's latest novel The
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Center mentions True Crime garage and we are forever thankful to Jr Ward so check
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out the center available everywhere and if you'd like to binge old episodes of True Crime garage check us out
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exclusively on the Stitcher app and we have a bonus show called off the record on Stitcher premium until next week be
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good be kind and don't let it [Music] canva presents a true crime of design in the office Maya spots something unusual
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