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Heat. Heat. [Music] [Applause] [Applause] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever
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you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host, Nick. And with me as always is a man that just
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like Michael Jordan, he knows the ceiling is the roof. He is the captain. What? It's good to be seen and it's good
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to see you. This week we are very happy to be drinking Tweak Bourbon Barrel Age Stout
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by Avery Brewing Company. Garage grade, four and a half bottle caps out of five.
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checking out some new games with some friends. And because of the high ABV, it's a uh 17.5%.
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Well, forget about driving because I couldn't even read after a couple. So, so be very aware, friends.
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>> You normally can't read anyways. >> Either way, you're going to love this strong boozy stout with coffee added,
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aged in bourbon barrels from the very cool people at Avery Brewing. And Tweak was brought to us by these very cool
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stuff. Untapped at True Crime Garage. All right, everybody, gather around, grab a share, grab a beer, and let's
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talk some true crime. [Music] in 1985. Hunters found a large metal drum in Allentown's Bear Brook State
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Park. Then in 2000, the second drum was found by Cody. In all, four unidentified
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victims, a woman, two girls related to her, and another girl were found inside. >> The two three-year-old little girl that
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looks like like a brick has been used to, you know, smash her head in. Retired New Hampshire State Police
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Detective John Cody vividly remembers the moment when he stumbled upon a rusty metal drum. Two bodies stuffed inside.
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>> I took my flashlight and looked in and you could see there was something white
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inside the plastic bag. So I peeled back a little of the plastic bag and that's when you could see that there was bones
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in there. and Lisa. That's why investigators want to come back here to search the very
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same spot in the spring where the bodies of a woman and three girls were found. They're also hoping all this media
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coverage will help bring their loved ones forward. [Music] November 10, 1985. There is this little
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town in New Hampshire called Allenstown. And in 85, the population was less than
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4,000 people. In Allentown, we have the Bearbrook State Park. So on that November day, there's two brothers.
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They're out hunting. This, of course, would be deer hunting season. And they're on the outskirts of the
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Bearbrook State Park. >> You say, "Of course, like like you're the best hunter in the world."
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>> I'm I'm constantly scouting. >> He's an avid hunter, people. This is off of a wooded trail which is off of
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Everwood Drive. These two brothers spot a bunch of trash and amongst the trash is a tarp. The tarp is covering
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something. So under the tarp they discover a barrel and it's lying on its side. This is one of those big 55gallon
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metal drums. You know, I've seen pictures of this site and the barrel appears to be like a dark blue or maybe
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even a black color. I'm sure everyone's familiar with these types of barrels. And the barrel that the hunters find,
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it's sealed. >> Yeah. And the two brothers, they decide that they're going to investigate. So,
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of course, they open up the barrel. Inside, they find trash bags. And inside one of those trash bags, they find
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remains. These are human remains. So, technically, this barrel is found on private property. On this property,
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there had once been a camp store that had operated for the parkgoers of Bearbrook State Park. This was called
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the Bearbrook Store, but this small store burned in July of 1983. So now it's just a shell of the store that
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remained. So on this private property, basically the whole place kind of looks like a dump in my opinion. has been
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described as having a small burnt building which is was the store, a mobile home, a camper, several broken
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down vehicles, several barrels and appliances that were scattered on the grounds of this property. Back then, the
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Allenstown Police Department was run by Chief Norm Connor. >> And like you said, this is a very small
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community. >> Yeah, small population. And so, of course, the police department is very
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small and they certainly are limited as far as investigative resources goes. So,
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Chief Connor brings in the state police to assist in the investigation. Back then, this may sound crazy today, but
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back then, New Hampshire didn't even have a medical examiner's office. So, the remains were flown to Maine to be
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examined. Once in Maine, what they discovered in regards to the human remains in the barrel was that they were
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actually two sets of remains stuffed into the barrel wrapped in these trash bags. We now know that we have the
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remains of two females. We have the remains of an adult woman and a young girl. The girl probably not even old
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enough to be like a teenager. They do the tough work and they put together a sketch of the woman and a
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sketch of the girl. They released these sketches to the media and to the public in hopes that someone would recognize
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these two and put names to these bodies. Obviously, when you have a victim or victims, usually you have means of
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identifying the victim. Sometimes you'll find identifiers with the body, you know, like a photo ID, credit card,
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driver's license, something with a name and or a face on it, >> or you have family, friends, or
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neighbors that can identify a body. So you start by making an identification to the victims and then once you have that
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established, you can start investigation by interviewing the persons in in the victim's inner circle,
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>> right? >> Usually that will provide you with, you know, the victim's timeline. You know,
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who who were they last with, where were they last seen, what were they doing the
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day they went missing. >> Yeah. Or in this case, did they have a husband or a boyfriend or, you know,
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they normally look at that first. >> Yeah. You know, what were they planning to do? Do they have any enemies?
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Unfortunately, we have a situation here where we have no identifiers. We have decomposed remains.
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>> So, you're left with creating and releasing sketches. >> Yeah. Yeah. A sketch that you don't even
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know how clear the sketch is. And this is also before the the technology that they had where they take the DNA to
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reconstruct, you know, like a a drawing or an image of the person. So without victim's names and knowing very little
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about these people, we have no inner circle to interview. Hell, we have we have no circle at all basically.
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>> Right. >> One possibility being here that the remains are related. Um that the grown
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woman could be the mother of the girl that was found with her. That was certainly a possibility and something
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that investigators were considering as they try to put names to these bodies. >> So they don't know who these people are
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or who the victims are. So, you'd think at some point they'd have to start looking in that area for possible
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missing persons >> and maybe trying to connect the dots that way. >> Yeah. And that's one thing that they
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were able to cover a lot of ground on. They they were able to eliminate persons as not being the identities of the
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bodies found, >> right? >> However, of course, they were unable to actually identify the bodies. The
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investigative efforts did not lead to answers and eventually the two bodies were released for burial. the Allenstown
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police chief Connor. He organized a graveside service complete with a priest and a minister because they didn't know
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what religion these these people could be. >> Um so, you know, we got to I give a
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little applause there to the police chief for doing right by the people that that were found these unknown victims.
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>> Yeah. But they might not have wanted a priest or a pastor or anybody, >> of course, but they didn't want to be in
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a barrel either. >> Right. Right. >> Um so the the two were buried. um together in a single steel casket. Uh
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and this was kind of a wellthoughtout plan as far as their burial goes because the thought was that if they ever needed
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to exume the bodies, this would make that whole process a lot easier, >> right? >> They were buried in St. John Baptist
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Cemetery and it's a local uh a local company, the Epson Memorials Service. They donated donated a granite stone
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complete with a carved rose and a picture of a woman and a child holding hands. The reading on the stone is
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pretty vague because again not knowing who these people are, but but it starts off saying, "Here lies the mortal
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remains known only to God of a woman and a girl." >> All right, so we we know it's a woman
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and we know it's a girl, but what else do we know? Do we know anything? >> Okay, so both are female victims.
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They're both found November 10th, 1985. And we will refer to the grown woman as victim number one. So in 1985, this is
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what we can tell you about victim number one. She was a Caucasian female approximately 23 to 33 years of age. She
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was approximately 5'4 to 5'7 in tall. >> She was about 120 to 140 lb. She had shoulder length brown hair and she has
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had some dental work done. She had three fillings and she is missing some of her
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teeth. Investigators believe that she had been bludgeoned to death. She is listed as UP number 2174 with the
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Nameless organization. Now, we have the girl as well and we will call her victim
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number two. She too is >> and and for people that don't know what Namos is. >> Uh Namos is an organization where they
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they try to identify uh the the remains unknown remains that are found and they keep a big catalog of those and they can
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be accessed by somewhat by the public but mainly it's for uh law >> enfor law enforcement resources.
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>> Yeah. So like Jane Does and John Doe's. >> Mhm. So the girl we'll call her victim
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number two. She too is a Caucasian female believed to be between the ages of 5 and 11. She would have been
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somewhere in the area of 4'2 in maybe 4'4 in tall and weighing 65 to 85 lb. She too had brown hair. Uh this is
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believed to be collar length hair. Uh she has both of her ears pierced with two piercings each. So double pierced
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ears. and she is listed as UP number 2173 with Namus. So, both were believed to have been bludgeoned to death. Both
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were dismembered and basically basically they're stuffed into this barrel and thrown out like trash.
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The investigation, as far as the investigation goes, let's let's go through this.
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>> Mhm. >> I believe and I think that that you'll agree with me that police really did try
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everything that they could think of um at the time. So, in the beginning of this investigation, the New Hampshire
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State Police started off by sifting through missing people cases from the 70s and the 80s. Right. Okay. But of
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course, they were unable to identify these bodies. In 1986, the New Hampshire State Police, they get a strong lead,
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and they actually believed that this lead was going to solve the case. So, this is when they suspected two missing
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people named Grace Reeb and her 5-year-old daughter Gracie as being the unidentified bodies in the barrel,
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>> which would fit with the ages of the victims that we have. >> Yeah, it was a very strong lead, but
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unfortunately the dental records proved that the unidentified remains were not those of Grace and her daughter Gracie.
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>> In 1985 with a small town, you know, you'd assume this would be big news. Well, yes, of course it was. And that's
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one thing that they used to try to help gather leads regarding the the identities of these two people. Uh they
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they received hundreds of leads. >> Uh and they distributed composite drawings of the victims throughout the
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northeastern part of the United States and actually all the way up into Quebec, Canada. Several people in Allentown said
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that the unidentified adult woman resembled someone who had left town with several children a few years ago, but
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this this actually proved to be a dead end as well because later this woman was found alive in Arizona with her
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children. >> You would assume that there'd be a lot of dead ends in this case. >> Yeah. And and one of one more that we
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run into here is out of a lot of those leads that the New Hampshire State Police received, there was a lead about
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a mother and a daughter who had vanished from an Indian reservation in Maine, not
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only did the descriptions match the victims found in the barrel, but also the time of their disappearance seemed
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to match up perfectly with this whole case. Uh but here is just another case where the mother and the daughter were
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actually located alive and they were found to be living just in some other town in Maine.
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>> Um so >> and you would assume at this maybe not assume but you know it's 1985 so it's
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more likely that we would have these you know mothers that were taking their kids
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to get away from a maybe abusive husband or something >> and and maybe just didn't want to be
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found. And sometimes people have little to no ties to where they live at all, you know, and maybe someone goes and
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takes a job elsewhere and decides to up and move with their children and they have no parents local to notify that
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we've moved. >> Yeah. Or maybe you get like a really good offer to move to Parts Unknown and
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do a podcast, a local podcast there and maybe jump ship, you know. >> Well, we are selling uh plots of land in
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Parts Unknown and they are filling up fast, so make sure you reserve yours today. use promo code garage.
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>> But I wanted I know that these were all kind of deadend leads here, but we wanted to include these because I didn't
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want it to make it sound like, you know, the police couldn't identify these people, so they just kind of sat around.
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It it wasn't that case at all. You know, they're they're pouring through missing
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person's cases. They're checking the databases that are available at the time, and they're going out and
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physically looking for these people to to determine if if they match up or not. and again receiving leads and following
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up on these leads. So I I see a situation here where we have a police chief of a very small police department.
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I think he does the right thing by immediately bringing in the state the New Hampshire State Police.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Always always a good thing. >> Bring bring Yeah. Exactly. Bring in
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these people that have the resources that have the funding and have the manpower or woman power to to do the
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hard work. Well, here's what gets me is just imagine, you know, first of all, just go back to the hunters. Yeah.
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>> Right. You're a hunter. >> You're just you're hanging out with your brother. Do you do people drink beer
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when they hunt? >> I think some people do. >> Yeah. And don't I've been shooting and
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stuff, but I I'm not a hunter myself, but So, you find this barrel. One, I don't think I'd have the guts to open
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the damn thing. >> Yeah. you made a bit of a noise when when we we were going through the barrel
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portion and I actually I had I had thought that we would say like like don't open up that barrel. You know what
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I mean? Like cuz >> I don't know that I would like it. And actually I happened to I wanted to look
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up what what hunting season they would be in >> in New Hampshire at that time, right?
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>> To to actually verify that it was an actual hunting season because part of me
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thought, well, is this strange? Because in some cases you do have the perpetrator of a crime is actually the
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person that will later report >> right right that they found >> that they found the body. And so it was
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actually hunting season. But it seemed a little strange to me that these guys are
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just out and they're like, "Oh, >> we found a barrel. >> Check out that barrel over there. Let's
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go uh let's let's go pop that baby open and see what's inside." >> Well, and I think what's weird about
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that is that there there are cars to surround. There's, you know, old cars. There's trash. So, it's not like it's
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just like this middle of a field and there's a barrel and we should open it. Like, it's it's kind of odd that they
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decided we're going to open it, but that's creepy enough. And then imagine being the chief of police and this small
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community and you're going, "Okay, now we got these two victims >> and uh you know, I think it becomes more
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horrendous because one is a child and now but then you can't even start really the investigation because you can't even
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figure out who they are." >> Mhm. I mean, there's so many different levels of horror here.
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>> And I actually came across an interview with one of the brothers, one of the hunters that was out there that day that
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discovered the barrel. >> And this is many years after the fact. And they they had said that they got
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like some form of PTSD from finding this thing. That these guys were like avid outdoor guys. They were always hunting
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and they found this thing and it really affected them big time. >> There's some things you can't unsee.
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>> Yeah. And and the one the one brother said, you know, I you know, he said, I didn't return to the woods or to a
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wooded area for almost 10 years because it just kind of he's he's like, I got afraid of what I might see out there or
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what I might find or who might be out lurking in the in the woods. Well, and if you think with avid hunters that
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there's possibly, you know, the hunters would have to deal with, you know, carcasses of animals. So maybe they
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wouldn't be as affected by this, but it's probably takes on a whole different meaning or a whole different psych
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there's some psychological thing there where this is human remains. This is not a deer.
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>> Yeah. And you're right, it's something you can't unsee. It's probably something
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that unfortunately creeps into your dreams at night over and over again. So, they make this discovery in 1985
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and the leads are going dead >> there. You know, everything's a dead end and it seems like it's just going to
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we're going to have to chalk it up and put it to the side and just say we don't even know who these victims are. We we
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we don't even know what to do with this case and this is just going to be become
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cold. >> Yeah. And you can tell by some of those leads that they were following that it
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appears that I bet you these investigators thought several times that they had this thing solved or at least
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had placed names to these to these remains. >> And unfortunately they were able never
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able to do so. And actually not only that, the the bad part here though is they end up learning nothing new about
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the female victims throughout the course of this investigation. Uh, and I really
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do think they tried everything that they could think of. Um, from checking they they started doing other things too
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where they were checking elementary schools in New Hampshire. You know, they're going to go out and look for a
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situation where maybe there is a girl that was attending school one day and no longer was attending the next day.
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>> Right. And for whatever reason just wasn't reported missing or the paperwork didn't get filed or or something.
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>> Mhm. The other thing that they did, and this sounds extremely tedious to me, uh
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they were checking medical records for every person um that was listed as missing uh or or persons that they could
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find medical records for from everywhere from basically Cape Cod all the way out
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to California and they find nothing in this as well. I mean, think about how long of a process that has to be.
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>> That's a that's a task that I'd give you to do. cuz I don't think I'd want to do
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that. >> So, after the case goes cold, we we have a new person enter the story. And this
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is in 2000. There's a state police sergeant. His name is John Cody. And >> so 15 years later,
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>> yes, he was assigned to take over the case. So back then, the state of New Hampshire did not have a cold case unit.
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So what they would do is the state troopers would be assigned old cases. you know, you put fresh eyes to an old
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case. So, John >> might have been a little bit of fun for the state troopers. >> Yeah. He
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>> They're doing more like, you know, footwork, >> investigative type work. So, John Cody,
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he decides that he is going to go down to the site where the body where the bodies in the barrel were found.
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>> Uh he wants to see the location for himself and see if he can search out and maybe find some clues. I mean, it seems
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like a fruitless effort to me because it's 15 years later, but I don't know what what, you know, the things that
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John Cody knows. Uh, and who knows what he thinks he could find. >> I don't I don't think it's fruitless on
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the fact that we, like we mentioned, there's it's almost a little bit of a junkyard down there.
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>> So, I mean, there's possible clues around every corner. >> This is on May 9th, 2000. Officer Cody
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goes to the location of the privately owned wooded lot that is near the trailer. This is near a trailer park and
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it's also on the outskirts of the Bearbrook State Park. So, this is where the story is going to take a very
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strange twist. While Officer Cody is examining the area, he located another barrel. This one is approximately 100
00:24:02
yards from the where the first barrel was found. >> Mhm. >> So, just about a football field away
00:24:07
from where he found the first barrel. So, we have this situation here, Captain. Right. We have the the cold
00:24:13
case state trooper. He's out there checking out this area. >> Mhm. >> He knows what was found in 1985,
00:24:20
>> right? >> He's fully aware. He's on the investigation and he's out there and he
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spots an identical barrel >> and he knows what there were what was found in the barrel.
00:24:29
>> Yeah. And >> and so now we have a similar barrel not that far away. But again, it's been 15
00:24:34
years. >> Mhm. So, I mean there's, you know, the other question is as you're searching
00:24:39
this area, do you see any other kind of barrels and containers? You probably see
00:24:43
a bunch of stuff. Um, but this is very similar. And he's probably been looking at these pictures for a long time.
00:24:51
>> Mhm. >> And so what's going through his mind at that time? >> Yeah. Well, I I I would guess that he's
00:24:58
probably hoping to find clothing or maybe some type of murder weapon or or he's probably thinking that there were
00:25:05
may have be other things that were dumped at that same site along with those two first victims.
00:25:10
>> And this is different than when the hunters found the barrel because the hunters find a barrel and it's like,
00:25:14
well, you could open it up, it could be anything. >> But now you're in a situation as the
00:25:19
detective where there's kind of two possibilities. It's nothing or or it's more of the same
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>> or it could be be evidence of towards the first victims that were found, >> right? This could be the smoking gun.
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>> The big question would be, do you open up this barrel? >> That of course is the big question. But
00:25:38
one question that he must be asking himself too is, was this something that was searched in 1985? You know, how much
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of this land and things on the land were searched in 1985? >> Yeah. Maybe they missed something.
00:25:51
>> Mhm. Uh, let's get into that right after this beer break. [Music] All right, and we're back. Cheers,
00:26:15
everybody. So, in 1985, two hunters discovered this first barrel with two sets of remains in it. And now
00:26:22
we have this situation in 2000 where police sergeant John Cody is back at the scene and he's looking for clues and
00:26:30
scoping out the area. What he discovers while he's there is he finds a second barrel. Opening it up, looking for
00:26:37
clues. Unfortunately, what he does find inside is the sets of two more remains. Now the question becomes, is this just a
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dumping ground or is this connected to the first barrel? >> Yeah. And what they find inside is again
00:26:51
these are dismembered remains uh wrapped in plastic and these people were disposed of like trash just like the
00:26:58
first two. Uh but again we have a situation here where these are two unidentified bodies. What they do learn
00:27:05
and what they now know is as follows. The remains found were that of two young girls, both younger than the girl that
00:27:13
was found with the woman in 1985. >> So, we will call these two victims victim number three and victim number
00:27:20
four. Victim number three, or what some would call the middle child, is well, this is because she is younger than
00:27:29
victim number two, the girl found in 1985, and she is older than the girl that she is found with in 2000.
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>> Mhm. She is believed to be 2 to four years of age. She is listed at 3' 10 in tall. Weight unknown. She had wavy brown
00:27:46
hair and a pronounced overbite. She is listed as UP number 2175 on Name. Now, victim number four is the youngest of
00:27:56
all of the victims. She is believed to be 1 to 3 years of age, 2'5 in tall. Her weight, too, is unknown. and she had
00:28:06
blonde wavy hair. She had a large gap in her upper front teeth and she is listed
00:28:13
as UP number 2176 on Namus. Both of these girls were Caucasian. They just like the first two victims were believed
00:28:22
to have been bludgeoned and they were again dismembered. >> 100% Caucasian. >> Um well, we'll we'll get into that. The
00:28:31
single steel casket idea is going to pay off a bit because in 2000 after the discovery of the new body barrel, this
00:28:38
led to the exumation of the woman and child found in 1985. This of course is going to be for multiple reasons, but
00:28:45
one of the things that they really want to do here is to set up a DNA comparison. Okay, so here is what we
00:28:52
have learned from the DNA testing. The testing found that the woman was biologically related to the oldest
00:28:59
child. This is victim number two, the girl that was found with the woman. >> Mhm.
00:29:04
>> It is also determined that the woman was biologically related to the youngest
00:29:09
girl found. This being victim number four. >> Yeah. The baby. >> So victim one is biologically related to
00:29:15
victim victims two and four. I believe when DNA was not so advanced originally, they could prove that the woman was
00:29:23
related in the sense that she was either the mother, the aunt, or possibly a sister to victims two and four. Of
00:29:31
course, science gets better and then they are later able to determine with further testing
00:29:38
>> that she is in fact maternally related to victims two and four. So, she is the
00:29:43
mother. Now we have this weird thing here though because there are all these people. But who is this unrelated middle
00:29:53
child? Victim number three is not maternally related to victim number one. But there is a possibility at the time
00:30:00
that she is related to the other girl victims. Meaning that she could have possibly the same father or maybe some
00:30:08
more distant type relative to the two. >> Right? So they can't say that she is related to the other girl victims for
00:30:15
sure, but they also cannot officially rule that out. >> With knowing the ages of these victims,
00:30:20
does that kind of pinpoint a time of when they were actually murdered? >> Yes. And this is kind of weird to me
00:30:26
because this is what the investigators are able to to say. And this is their statement as being and quote, "All four
00:30:33
victims were killed between 1980 and 1985 and possibly as early as 1977. Can't you kind of see the press
00:30:43
conference right there and that that being delivered? >> Uh between 80 and 85, but maybe 77.
00:30:51
>> So, let's touch on something real quick here. The the first two victims were described as having been found in trash
00:30:56
bags inside the 55gallon barrel. >> Victims three and four were described as having been found in plastic inside of
00:31:05
the second 55gallon barrel. But what I did find later was a statement where an off officer says, "We believe this
00:31:13
plastic to be trash bags as well, matching the trash bags from the first barrel." So maybe maybe that's their
00:31:19
connection. So most likely, I'm guessing after sitting there for an additional 15
00:31:24
years, just like, you know, the bodies were far more decomposed than the first two, these trash bags could have either
00:31:31
been cut up or maybe they deteriorated over time as well. And I know that might sound dumb because, you know, we're told
00:31:37
that plastic does not break down, and that is pretty much true. But there are a few types of bacteria that will in
00:31:43
fact break down plastic. Also, there's this thing that happens with sunlight over time that can create a situation
00:31:50
that will eventually begin to break down plastic. Did the murders take place somewhere and then were they put into
00:31:56
bags, transported, and just maybe happened to find, you know, happen stance that they happen to find these
00:32:02
barrels? >> Mhm. Because you're talking about a 55gallon barrel. They're probably
00:32:08
somewhat weight to them. >> Yeah. >> So, or did the murders take place somewhere else and then put in the
00:32:15
barrels and then transported to the scene in the barrels? >> Those are all very good questions. And
00:32:21
and one thing one theory that locals have brought up was that they had locals thought that this would have been
00:32:28
somebody that would have been local to the area or knew the area because the area where these barrels were found is
00:32:34
not like easily accessible from the highway or anything like that. It's not like somebody just pulled over and
00:32:39
dumped these things out and kept on going. >> And then you have the the other issue
00:32:43
because we talked about the trailer park that was close. >> Mhm. the the one of the issues there is,
00:32:48
you know, it is the 80s, late 70s, early 80s, and what kind of records were kept
00:32:54
on rentals there. >> Yeah. >> You know, somebody could have been renting, you know, and who would know
00:33:00
when somebody's coming and going >> or possibly somebody just shacked up with somebody for a brief period of time
00:33:04
and weren't technically listed as a tenant, >> right, on the lease. Yeah. >> So, we have this very weird situation,
00:33:10
right, Captain? We have four victims. Well, I don't even think Well, it's weird, but I think it's it's gruesome. I
00:33:16
mean, we got four bodies that were mutilated and put into a barrel. >> Mhm. >> Into two separate barrels, all with
00:33:24
unknown identities. But even more strange, there is one, you know, there there is not even anybody listed in any
00:33:31
database that matches this criteria. You would think that with the advancement of
00:33:36
DNA and all of the the items that were collected that you would know something about these victims and that maybe you
00:33:44
would have a young mother with two children listed in some database somewhere that you could link to at
00:33:49
least three of the four victims. Right. >> Right. You have a mother of two and you'd think that somebody at some point
00:33:57
would come forward and say that's possibly mine. U you know possibly my daughter. It's it's almost like these uh
00:34:06
it's almost like these four victims are the the forgotten. >> It's conceivable that if you could
00:34:11
identify any of these that victims that you would have some kind of leads to go off of, but then you have this other
00:34:16
girl victim that that is not related to the others that you know, you would think you would have a situation where
00:34:23
you have this woman and her two kids were last seen here or they were last living here,
00:34:28
>> right? And if we could identify her, right? or if we can identify any of them, then the question for me would be
00:34:34
asking the family, why didn't you report her missing? >> Right? Was she not your favorite
00:34:38
daughter? So, you just just figured all she went off and with somebody. And look, I know it's a different time, you
00:34:43
know, late 70s, early 80s, it's a different time. There was a lot of times that people, like I said, they ran away
00:34:50
from their abusive husbands. Rightfully so. Right. >> Right. But, but people still reported
00:34:55
children as missing. And and and I get what you're saying. And it is a little more believable that a that a mother and
00:35:02
a couple kids possibly go missing and something tragic happened to them. But then you throw this whole wrench in the
00:35:08
thing where you have this unidentified third girl who's not related to the others.
00:35:14
>> And so it's weird to have a situation where you basically have most of one family disappear, something tragic
00:35:21
happened to them, not reported missing, and then on top of that they're linked to this other victim who's not reported
00:35:27
missing as well. >> Right. That's what flipping blows my mind. You know what I mean? It's like,
00:35:31
you know, if it if this was your sister, you'd report her missing, >> right? If this was your girlfriend,
00:35:36
you'd report her missing, unless you're the one that put her in the these barrels, right? But but still, or maybe
00:35:43
maybe this person was a orphan. Maybe they're maybe this girl um didn't have family members. Maybe she was a runaway.
00:35:54
The thing that bothers me too on this is what if this what if the girl Okay, just
00:36:01
so just go down on this little rabbit hole with me. >> Mhm. >> But what if this girl was actually
00:36:07
abducted, you know, in the 60s, >> right? >> And then she was reported missing in the
00:36:14
60s and this person was groomed or was was captive. Oh, like a JC Duggard situation where it's where you take
00:36:23
somebody captive and you keep them as a family member or keep them in your home and then father children with with them,
00:36:31
>> right? And so now you have these these two children, right? >> Mhm. >> And and we know that they're connected
00:36:37
to um the oldest victim, but we have no record of them going missing. >> Yeah. So, as much as I I there's a part
00:36:45
of me that doesn't want to believe that there's I mean, look, we all have douchy
00:36:49
family members, right? >> But >> do you want me to list mine? >> I don't think we have enough time on
00:36:56
this show. Met some of his family members. Not Not the best of people. Um but it seems unlikely to me that nobody
00:37:04
would report this girl missing. >> Yeah. And you're doing exactly what everybody does once they review the
00:37:10
victim list here. your mind starts to run wild and you try to make sense of this whole situation. You kind of start
00:37:16
to come up with your own stories. Was this was this middle child somebody that the mother was babysitting? You know, or
00:37:23
was this an adopted kid? Um, you know, >> or or was it a kid that she was forced
00:37:28
to take care of? >> You know, some psycho kidnapped her when she was a kid or a teenager. And that's
00:37:34
what they should really be diving into. >> Were these people living with somebody?
00:37:39
Were they living with a man that did this to them? And was this man potentially >> not living, but I I would assume cap
00:37:46
they were captive. You know, they were taken captured by this guy that were kidnapped. This girl was kidnapped and
00:37:52
then she was probably forced to have these children and now there's this other child and she is having to raise
00:37:59
that child as well. >> Yeah. So there there's a question of where is the father? Why didn't he
00:38:04
report anybody missing? But the other thing too is then you have a situation where there has to be another mother
00:38:10
involved in this inner circle of victims that didn't report anybody missing too.
00:38:14
So there's so what we end up here with is a few answers as far as the DNA testing goes in their findings in 2000,
00:38:22
but we all we ultimately just get a whole bunch of more questions. Well, the other thing that they're able to do with
00:38:27
the DNA is to do the DNA rec, you know, uh, profile picks >> where they can take uh, and make an
00:38:35
image of the person based off of DNA. >> Yeah. And that advances some of the sketches that were released from 1985.
00:38:42
They they've further advanced them and put more likelihood and more likeness to to those sketches in 2000.
00:38:49
>> And the middle child, which we don't know if she is related or not. We can't rule that out. But to me, she looks like
00:38:56
uh possibly possibly Filipino or possibly some kind of Asian descent. >> Yeah. And there there are some
00:39:04
differences in her herd look compared to the others. Let's let's step aside though and go into some suspects because
00:39:12
in 2000 they did start coming up with some some suspicious people here. Uh the New Hampshire State Police started to
00:39:19
look at a serial killer. His name was John Edward Robinson uh as a being a suspect in this case.
00:39:25
>> Now, this does make some sense here because John Robinson was apprehended in June of 2000. So, less than one month
00:39:32
after the discovery of the second body barrel, he's apprehended. And we see this happen a lot where police apprehend
00:39:40
a serial killer and in some cases, if not most cases, they can be unaware that they even have a serial killer running
00:39:47
around at all. and then they arrest someone for an individual murder and then they quickly become aware that hey
00:39:53
this you know this guy's a serial killer and sometimes that means okay well now we need to figure out this guy's
00:39:59
movements. >> Was this his first arrest? I mean was he in jail during the times where these
00:40:05
barrels possibly would have been dumped? >> Um no he he would have been out um and
00:40:11
you know they want to figure out all the places that he would have lived all the
00:40:15
places that he would have worked. Does he travel for work? Does he travel a lot for fun? All of these things because it
00:40:20
always raises the question, if this guy was capable of killing a handful of people here, he's probably capable of
00:40:26
killing people elsewhere. Of course, >> what was his typical victim? >> Well, that that's the thing and that's
00:40:32
why I think that they they looked at him. So, Robinson was suspected of having killed eight or more people in
00:40:39
more than one state. Uh they have linked him to deaths in Kansas and Missouri. But the thing that I think landed him on
00:40:46
the suspect list was that he had a similar MMO that would fit this case. Robinson had been known to prey upon
00:40:54
single mothers and in some cases he was able to convince or at least attempted to try to convince the victim's
00:41:01
families, you know, the the mom and dad of the single mother that the victim had
00:41:06
moved away of their own will. making it look like, you know, he had written letters and sent them to moms and dads
00:41:14
stating that the the mother had taken a job elsewhere in another state of work. >> She was doing well. She didn't intend to
00:41:21
move back, you know. So, these parents have their daughter who's actually been out and been murdered and they think
00:41:28
that she's off and fine. And so, therefore, she's not reported as missing. >> Yeah. Yeah. note to self if some dope
00:41:35
writes you a letter saying, "Hey, uh, your daughter's with me and she's fine. She just don't want to come home
00:41:41
anymore, uh, that guy's a dope. Don't listen to him and, uh, do your due diligence." Well, just to go into how
00:41:49
manipulative this guy was, okay? Um, he there was a situation where he had killed a mother and he had convinced her
00:41:56
family that she had moved away and he needed to get rid of the lady's kid. So, what he did was he set up some fake
00:42:04
adoption and adopted the kid out to some other couple. The only good thing here is that these people thought it was a
00:42:12
legit adoption. Um, they weren't like some weirdos looking to illegally adopt a kid.
00:42:18
>> Well, and it's a very good thing that he didn't kill the kid. You know, it's >> Yeah. And that shows you why his MMO
00:42:25
matches this type of case. you know, they're looking for somebody that could make people disappear, go unreported.
00:42:32
Um, he is ultimately eventually ruled out of this case. Um, I'm guessing that they're able to figure out that he would
00:42:39
not have been in the area at the time of when they think that these barrels were
00:42:44
placed there. >> I'll post it I'll post a couple of his pictures online. I mean, this guy's
00:42:48
definitely a creepy looking dude. Has his giant glasses, you know. >> Mhm. Yeah. And one of one of the things
00:42:55
they call him they or refer to him as uh Robinson, they refer to him as the internet's first serial killer because
00:43:02
later in his killing career uh he he started using chat rooms to to you know hook up with these victims.
00:43:11
>> This other site also says uh they call him the internet slave master. >> Mhm.
00:43:16
>> Uh he's a creepy dude. I mean this is this is El Creo. This situation though definitely fits a lot of theories that
00:43:26
were going around at the time. Um, you know, of course, one of the theories was that this would be the work of a serial
00:43:32
killer or maybe even possibly an organized crime member. Uh, because we've seen throughout time that that
00:43:39
organized crime members seem to be pretty good at disposing of bodies. Um, some have believed that the killer was
00:43:45
someone local. discussed that because of the the highway situation and it being an area that wouldn't be familiar to
00:43:52
people outside of the town. Um, and of course there's also the theory, which is a very plausible theory in my opinion,
00:43:59
is that the victims could have been killed by a boyfriend or a husband. >> So, starting in 1985, this case quickly
00:44:06
became a cold case and then it gets reopened in 2000. Yeah. >> But then, you know, now it's 2017, it's
00:44:13
since have gone cold again. But we've noticed with a lot of these cold cases and a lot of these armchair
00:44:19
detectives as you know we're trying to be I guess uh or support the true crime community that people kind of get their
00:44:27
pet cases. >> Yeah. >> That they keep researching and and I know I think I I believe our Facebook
00:44:32
girl Aelia actually is really into this case. >> Yeah. There are a lot of people out
00:44:37
there that have followed this for the entirety of the case. We want to give a quick shout out to some very cool people
00:44:42
that have worked very hard on this case. If you watch some of the police press conferences, um you'll hear the
00:44:49
investigators say that they've been working with agencies in other states, right?
00:44:54
>> And sometimes they mention that they've been working with a local lady or local
00:44:58
amateur investigator. And I actually believe that they are talking about New Hampshire residents Ronda Randall and
00:45:04
Scott Maxwell. This is a brother and sister amateur investigative pair. And they have spent a minimum of 40 hours a
00:45:11
week on this case for the past 5 years. Wow. >> So, in doing our work >> that I mean that's a lot of dedication.
00:45:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. I don't know how they have the means to do that, but
00:45:21
they've put in a lot of hard work on this case. So, in doing our research for this case, uh we used some of their hard
00:45:28
work as a primary source for us as well as the local agencies as well. Uh there have been been many great groups
00:45:35
involved in this investigation, but I wanted to make sure that we included Rhonda and Scott because I feel like
00:45:40
they have been a great source and a very positive force in this investigation and
00:45:44
they often get left out when police and media are, you know, kind of rolling through their credits.
00:45:50
>> Well, cheers to them. Yeah. What's their major theory? >> Uh they they have a few theories that
00:45:55
they review and we won't we won't have to go all the way into every one of them because you can kind of get the gist of
00:46:01
each. So to just put your toe into the rabbit hole. >> Yeah. So So let's go. This first theory
00:46:07
here is the drunken rage theory. >> So this theory is >> sounds like >> sounds like the captain throwing a beer
00:46:15
bottle at the garage wall. >> That is not true. That never >> has never happened.
00:46:20
>> Maybe once. >> Maybe last week. Uh so the drunken rage theory is a you know the woman with the
00:46:27
two kids is living in some sort of relationship with a man and a kid and in a drunken rage he ends up killing them
00:46:34
all. You know this is pretty much similar to the theory that is out there from before that they establish that the
00:46:40
midchild is not linked to the woman this being victim number one. This is just like the family annihilator theory that
00:46:47
a man annihilated his entire family. either he either a then committed suicide or b moved away and assumed a
00:46:55
new identity. Not reporting anybody as missing obviously. There's also the sexual predator theory. This is that a
00:47:02
sexual predator offers a needy family a place to stay and eventually molests or attempts to molest the children and then
00:47:10
kills to cover up this crime. >> Mhm. >> There is also the woman on the run theory which is kind of a two-parter. So
00:47:18
>> yeah, we kind of brought that up. You know, the a battered wife. >> Yeah. The thought here that that a woman
00:47:24
on the run with her two children runs into a situation that ends up being even more worse than what the situation she's
00:47:30
running from or a person they are running from catches up to them at some point. Uh, but as you can see, the
00:47:37
midchild, the one that's not connected to the woman, victim number one, this midchild throws a big wrench in a lot of
00:47:44
these different theories and certainly adds a variable that is not easily explained.
00:47:50
>> Rhonda and Scott, they uh uncovered some stuff that just doesn't seem like a law
00:47:53
enforcement uncovered about the owner of the private property. >> Yeah, remember we had said that the
00:47:58
barrels were actually found on private property that backs up to the state park, right? So the land owner's name is
00:48:04
Robert Callahan and Callahan lived on the land during some of the time that these barrels could have been placed
00:48:10
there. Uh so the thing here is though that Callahan spent time at the New Hampshire State Prison. This would be
00:48:17
from 1991 until 1996. He was in there >> until afterwards after the first barrel
00:48:23
was found. >> And he was in there for sexual assault of a minor. >> Oh, >> his >> red flag. and they revealed his court
00:48:30
transcripts to to figure out exactly what this means. They didn't go into specifics, but regarding those
00:48:35
transcripts, they were able to determine that during the course of that trial, he
00:48:40
admitted to molesting both girls and boys over a period of time. The other thing to consider here is the trailer
00:48:49
park that is nearby. You brought up the trailer park about possible people living there, right?
00:48:53
>> Uh people that might have been listed or not listed as living there. And I I do
00:48:59
want to say something that I heard from a now famous Ohio detective who turned author. And I'm not going to say her
00:49:05
name because I'm not sure how many people she intended for this statement to be heard by, but she had once said
00:49:11
that in some of these trailer parks, you can't swing a bat without hitting a sexual predator, which which makes you
00:49:18
think, you know, it >> Well, note to self, I will I'm not going to be living in a trailer park then.
00:49:23
>> And I'm moving out of mine immediately. Yeah, the where we're going to have to
00:49:27
move the garage out of our trailer park. Um, yeah, that's Well, but you would think because of the codes now where you
00:49:34
have to register and you can't be a certain distance, >> stuff like that. >> Times have certainly changed and that's
00:49:40
one thing that we see in this investigation as it goes on throughout the years. Anytime technological
00:49:47
advancements were made and could provide additional investigative tools, the new
00:49:52
the New Hampshire State Police and the FBI, they took advantage of new technology by applying it to this case,
00:49:59
running the necessary test and putting it to work. >> Yeah. The FBI doesn't mess around.
00:50:04
>> Well, they did this thing. This is some weird stuff here. >> Well, and and I would just like to say
00:50:08
it's to me just because of what happened with the the the case in Grove City and
00:50:13
the Columbus case. Uh and then the the case that's helping uh happening right now, the deli murders,
00:50:21
>> uh in Indiana, and now I believe the FBI is involved in that. >> Um you see now with more modern cases
00:50:29
because and probably because of technology that when the FBI gets involved, it gets solved quickly.
00:50:35
>> And so it's it's fascinating to me that the the FBI has been involved in this
00:50:39
case and they're not any further along. Well, and the thing is, and this is my understanding here, Captain, I could be
00:50:45
completely off base, but my understanding is for the FBI to get involved in a case, there has to
00:50:51
actually be a break in a federal crime. Somebody has to break a federal law. Now, one bit of a
00:50:57
>> murder is not >> well, but that's technically investigated by a state, >> right?
00:51:02
>> So, but the loophole in that situation is kidnapping is considered a federal crime. And therefore, you could, one
00:51:10
could argue that even if you are even being held captive for a second or two before you're murdered, that that's
00:51:17
technically kidnapping. Anytime a person is somewhere where they don't want to be
00:51:22
is technically kidnapping according to the definition. >> So like Oh, so like if you're at your
00:51:27
job, you don't want to be there. >> Well, is that can I call my boss is keeping me here?
00:51:34
>> You might be stretching. I just want to go to the garage and have a couple beers.
00:51:38
>> Let's talk about this isotope testing because this is this is yeah, this is some weird stuff.
00:51:43
>> Isotope. >> Yes, isotope. So, basically due to chemicals and pollutants that are in our
00:51:48
environment and I'm sure there are several other things that I don't understand nor could I explain uh that
00:51:54
are involved, but they can determine where someone may have lived basically by determining where they wouldn't have
00:52:02
lived. >> Right? >> Does that make sense? And I think a lot of this has to do with drinking water.
00:52:07
Um, and so here's the situation, right? They do this isotope testing. So for victim one and her two children, this
00:52:15
would be, you know, victim two and victim 4. They have a map of the United States showing that she could have been
00:52:23
from the Northeast and there is some of the Midwest on there and some of the West Coast as well.
00:52:30
>> But it basically, which sounds like I just named the entire United States. you
00:52:34
know, you basically pulled the uh well, they were probably dumped or probably murdered between 80, 85, maybe 76.
00:52:41
>> So, the thing here is though when you look at the map, it uh it really does eliminate a good 2/3 maybe 3/4 of the
00:52:50
United States. >> So, it does narrow it down quite a bit. >> They do have a separate map containing
00:52:57
some of the same testing results. This being for the third girl, victim number three, and the areas where she could
00:53:03
have lived or been from closely resemble that of the other victims. However, the
00:53:08
places she could have lived in the northeast are a lot smaller. Um, so, so some very interesting stuff here,
00:53:16
>> right? So, you basically make a circle of one, make a circle of the other, and
00:53:20
then there's probably going to be a section that's overlapping, and then you can really kind of focus there. Mhm. And
00:53:26
the other thing we see is like you touched on the advancement as far as the facial reconstructions go for the four
00:53:33
victims which have changed quite a bit over the years as well. >> Again, this is due to advancements in
00:53:39
technology. The most obvious in this situation would be victim number one. Remember we said that she was missing
00:53:45
some of her teeth, >> right? Well, that changed her appearance greatly because eventually they were
00:53:51
able to put together a facial reconstruction with what she would have looked like with teeth. Of course, you
00:53:57
know, this changes the appearance of the lower half of one's face almost entirely. Yeah. And originally, we have
00:54:05
evidence of blunt force trauma to the victim's heads, but the law enforcement is able to shine a little more light on
00:54:13
possibly what happened to these uh victims. >> Yeah. And that that's something that I
00:54:18
really question here because one thing that I've noticed that have changed in the the presentation of this
00:54:24
investigation in the last few years is that regarding the two younger girls, you know, they they originally stated
00:54:31
that they shared the same cause of death as the two older victims. Um, which we said originally was listed as being
00:54:38
bludgeoned. Um, but to be more precise, like the captain said, it's actually blunt force trauma to their heads. Now,
00:54:45
this the reason why I question this is I'm not certain if this was something that they weren't making well known at
00:54:53
the time or throughout the years or if it was something that they actually had to scientifically reconstruct and have
00:54:59
to spend a whole bunch of time on this situation to to determine that that was in fact the situation. I mean, we have
00:55:07
something that's very hard to investigate, first of all, when you don't know the victims and their names,
00:55:12
but on top of that, you have dismembered bodies that are found in these barrels that create all kinds of problems when
00:55:18
you're trying to forensically put this back together. >> Well, right. And then this case really
00:55:23
spans over 20 years. And so, the advancement of technology, you would think that you'd be leaps and bounds
00:55:29
above where you were at on doing an autopsy. Even if you don't think that the the original autopsies were bad, it
00:55:37
doesn't it makes a lot of sense to go back and do them again. I mean, back in, you know, 85, you know, most houses
00:55:43
didn't have computers. Now, people were walking around with computers in their pockets or on on their uh watches.
00:55:49
>> Mhm. Yeah. And I wonder if some of those autopsies contained speculation in them.
00:55:55
Um I know that it's supposed to just be reported fact. However, if you cannot make a proper determination, you can
00:56:02
leave what would be called an expert opinion. Now, when you exume those bodies many years later, again,
00:56:09
advancements in technology, maybe they're able to to actually determine that this is it.
00:56:14
>> What a frustrating case for law enforcement because not only do you you're trying to figure out what
00:56:19
happened to these individuals. Then you're also trying to find who is responsible for this, but you can't even
00:56:25
get the first part together. You can't even figure out who the actual victims are.
00:56:31
>> And this this goes on, like we said, we're going on almost uh >> over 30 years now.
00:56:36
>> Yeah. >> And and it's not for the lack of not trying, right? I mean, we see the
00:56:42
efforts that are being put forth. Uh this >> and efforts and and multiple decades.
00:56:47
>> Yeah. By several agencies, by multiple states, even armchair, you know, amateur
00:56:53
sleuths getting involved. Um, this is a case for for a case where you don't have
00:56:59
the identities of the victims. This is a case that's huge and it's it's spanned over the o over across the USA. You
00:57:08
know, looking for these people in every state, medical records, elementary schools, uh, everything that they could
00:57:15
do. >> You have the you have the first barrel in 1985, then the second barrel in 2000.
00:57:22
And if that's not strange enough, nothing none of this leads to to answers. >> Yeah, but this case is going to take a
00:57:29
twist in 2017. >> Yeah, it's this thing's going to bust wide open. Um, but I do >> and we we'll get to that tomorrow.
00:57:38
>> Yeah, because we're running out of time here, but I do have to throw this out
00:57:41
here, Captain. >> This is this is one of the strangest cases I've ever I've ever read about. It
00:57:48
might be the strangest case that we've reviewed so far. And we've we've reviewed some very strange and odd
00:57:54
cases. >> And yeah, and we'll dive into that tomorrow. And we'll dive in that. And we'll dive into that tomorrow. I
00:58:06
want to I want to thank everybody for uh all the feedback on the Brandon Lawson case. I did take it to some buddies of
00:58:14
mine. Everybody was asking for a update. I did take it to some some of my audio engineering buddies to look at. We just
00:58:22
couldn't really come up with anything clearer on this. >> What we found here, >> right? So, we're just kind of stuck at
00:58:28
this point. Maybe uh a as technology gets more advanced in that case that will help us out with that 911 call.
00:58:35
>> If you are looking for an update, you can go to our website trueimeg.com. There are a lot of people that have
00:58:41
posted things that they think that they're hearing what Brandon is saying, as well as theories that they think
00:58:47
that's going on. And interesting enough to me, a lot of the people chiming in seem to be from Texas that are able to
00:58:53
offer a little more insight as to the area that that case took place. >> And make sure you subscribe to the show,
00:58:59
make sure you tell a friend, and we'll see you guys here tomorrow. >> Until tomorrow, everybody, be good, be
00:59:05
kind, and don't flitter. Heat. Heat. [Music]