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GameChanger [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:44
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who gave his father an autographed picture of
00:01:51
Secretariat he is the captain news flash for you Joy boy it's good to be seen and
00:01:56
it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for for telling a [Music] friend today we are drinking party at
00:02:10
the moon tower by the hardworking folks over at Latitude 42 Brewing Company this
00:02:16
dankalicious double IPA is a party in a can featuring Citra Mosaic 7 C's and Columbus hops that will make you want to
00:02:25
party at the Moon Tower Garage grade four out of five bottle caps all right let's get this party started right
00:02:34
Captain first we have a cheers to our buddy Avery down in Springdale Arkansas and a big we like your jib to Britney
00:02:42
and Midland Texas next we have James S and his supervisor Allison in Parts Unknown Allison you make sure to keep an
00:02:50
eye on that boy and a big shout out to Jessica and Garder Kansas next up we have Alita and high anger United Kingdom
00:02:59
and last but certainly not least we have Jennifer in Lewis Center Ohio everyone we just mentioned went to True Crime
00:03:07
garage.com and helped us out with this week's beer fund and for that we thank you and for all of our old episodes
00:03:13
check us out on the Stitcher app and also check out our bonus show called off the Record and that is enough of the
00:03:22
business and this evening we will be having a discussion with longtime friend of the show Melissa Lee from the victim
00:03:29
ology podcast so everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some
00:03:36
true [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] crime hello Melissa thank you for joining us in the garage this week how
00:04:02
are you doing hey it's great to be here thanks for having me so you and I have had so many off the record conversations
00:04:10
about the deli case and yes it's got national attention but it's something that is really always on my mind and I
00:04:19
know you're always thinking about it too and both of us have a lot of thoughts and opinions which is just a natural fit
00:04:25
because there's not a ton of information out there I thought would be interesting
00:04:30
if you could join me in the garage and we could talk about some of our thoughts and opinions regarding the unsolved
00:04:38
double homicide case of Abigail Williams in Liberty German sounds good the way this conversation came about was you
00:04:46
reached out to me and you said hey Nick are you listening to down the hill because I'm listening to it and it's
00:04:52
fascinating and you and I have had plenty of Deli conversations before this and I said to you yeah I said to you
00:04:59
well that's weird I'm not listening to down the hill I've been listening to scene of the crime but they're talking
00:05:06
Deli as well and so what that inspired for me and for you is you then went to listen to scen of the crime and I
00:05:15
listened to down the hill so now we're all caught up and here we are going to have a
00:05:20
discussion of reading between the lines of what information has been released And discussing what we think could be
00:05:27
going on here with the investigation itself and with what happened on that fateful day in February of 2017 so I
00:05:36
don't know about you but one of the like main issues I have with this case is there's not much information out there
00:05:43
so when we were given these little tidbits in both of the podcasts I felt like it was just a huge finding yeah and
00:05:51
it's really been a lot of trying to read between the lines and these two podcasts
00:05:56
had more information than others have True Crime garage has covered Deli at least six episodes in countless off the
00:06:04
Record episodes but it was interesting to get the real nuts and bolts of the case from these two different podcasts
00:06:13
so let's just Dive Right In Here with with some of the thoughts that we wanted to discuss the first being the
00:06:18
investigators they interviewed said that the video and the audio haunts him because of the reaction of one of the
00:06:27
girls and could take that a million different ways but I did want to get either what what opinions do you have of
00:06:37
that or what questions does that raise for you so one of my main thought processes with this was that the
00:06:44
investigator you know when he was talking about it he had said he had watched the video multiple times and it
00:06:51
always bothers him the reaction of the one girl's face as she's watching what's happening to her friend so in my brain I
00:06:59
was thinking okay we know this whole time it's been Libby's cell phone who was or who's been recording or who was
00:07:06
recording at the time and so my thought process was okay if he's saying he's watching the face of one of the
00:07:15
girls while the other girl is you know something's quote unquote happening to her she's watching watching what's
00:07:24
happening then I would believe that they referring to Libby watching what's happening to Abby
00:07:32
here because if it was Libby's cell phone we know it was in Libby's possession at the time I feel like that
00:07:38
is the most plausible explanation is that it was Libby who was watching what's happening to Abby yeah so we're
00:07:45
going to have a a difference of opinion here just based off and I can only go off of stuff that I've heard and seen
00:07:52
and read and and you can only go off of what you've seen and read I have a different different opinion on this
00:07:58
because what I I've I and I'm trying to think of the investigator that you're talking about but I do recall seeing an
00:08:06
investigator interviewed and saying yeah the video the audio haunts me and I didn't think that it was as
00:08:14
specific as because of seeing the one girl's face I'm not questioning that that you didn't
00:08:21
find that somewhere I just I didn't have the same experience what I was able to find was
00:08:27
that three of the family members are saying that they were allowed to watch the video and that was Becky Mike and
00:08:37
Anna watched the video and here's where you got to take it a step further did they see the entire video or were they
00:08:46
only showed a portion of it what law enforcement was willing to show them and their statements were that there was
00:08:54
very little on the video that they saw that was of use to ident identifying the the suspect or even really knowing what
00:09:03
was going on with the girls at at the time of of the video that what they're seeing what they did say that they saw
00:09:10
or heard on the video was typical girl talk talking about the man on the bridge Whispering between the two and at some
00:09:21
point Libby said something about a path ending and this is where I take it a bit
00:09:28
a step further try to fill in the blanks and then wonder if the order of this is
00:09:34
pretty concise as to what they witnessed on the video because you can almost see
00:09:39
this playing out in your mind where we have typical girl talk maybe the video actually started before they witnessed
00:09:48
the man on the bridge then all of a sudden hey there's somebody on the bridge he's alone why is he walking this
00:09:56
fast towards us and then wh Whispering between the girl between the two as the perpetrator gets closer and as their
00:10:04
fear heightens and then at some point we have this situation of Libby says something about the path ending and I
00:10:12
think Anna's words were something to the effect of well where do we go now the path is ending this almost sounds to me
00:10:21
like by this point he's already got them the bridge gu's already got them somewhat under his control that he's
00:10:28
directing them around and that's where I wonder if in fact there was some video at this point and that's what your
00:10:36
investigators talking about saying one of the girls faces at this point her reaction to what's going on because you
00:10:44
also wonder like if if the path does run out now not only does he have control of
00:10:49
us but he's taking us off the path doesn't it seem like the Situation's getting a little dire getting worse like
00:10:56
not only does he is he threatening us and controlling our movements but he's now taking us into the woods into a
00:11:03
place where we really don't want to go with this guy well now I've also heard rumors about either the video going out
00:11:10
or the audio going out at some point I don't know have you heard those rumors at all I've definitely seen the rumor of
00:11:16
the video going out where there is additional audio that can be heard but the the phone that was capturing the
00:11:26
video may have been concealed at some point and that's really interesting because I
00:11:32
feel like I'm a 50-50 split to whether the perpetrator knew of the phone at all of the existence of the phone at all
00:11:43
because one thing we do know is that the phone was found somewhere near the crime
00:11:49
scene we do not they don't tell us exactly where it was found but we do know that it was in fact found so that
00:11:55
leads me to believe one of two things occurred for the briti guy either he never detected Libby's cell phone never
00:12:04
she was able to conceal it and he never came across it or two he may have tried to destroy
00:12:13
it but was unsuccessful or thought he had successfully destroyed it you know smashed the phone and then left but
00:12:20
there was still there was the technology was still inside the phone and able to show us this video and give us this
00:12:27
audio one thing I do question though is if he did detect the phone if he did find the phone it's interesting to me
00:12:36
the sophistication that goes into the thought of to not take it with him especially if he may have thought that
00:12:44
there was something incriminating on the phone it it shows that he has some general understanding of that type of
00:12:50
Technology meaning had he taken a phone with him they may have been able to track him in some form using her phone I
00:12:57
know that the fine my phone app was not working on Libby's phone at the time it does show some type of sophistication to
00:13:05
me that he he may have chose not to take the phone with him now I had had a thought that so from what I have heard
00:13:13
as far as the crime scene which I know we'll get into in a little bit that it was not a or not an organized crime
00:13:21
scene and the fact too it makes me think uh as well that her shoe was found what
00:13:26
a couple feet away from where their body were would eventually be discovered I had always thought that the phone had
00:13:33
fallen at some point and he didn't even necessarily know it was there or because
00:13:39
I I had had that thought too why not try to dispose of the phone why not throw it
00:13:43
into the creek that they were near you know why not try to completely get rid of it if it did have this evidence of
00:13:50
him committing these crimes on it you know that kind of goes along with the the theory that I'm now in belief of
00:13:57
that I actually think that at some point they did try to run from him that they tried to flee him and so the information
00:14:07
I found was that Libby one of her shoes was on the bridge on the moan and high bridge side of the creek and their
00:14:15
bodies were found on the other side of the creek so I'm wondering now if as they're approaching this Creek area or
00:14:23
as they're making their way down the hill if they Tred to run toward the creek and cross the creek to
00:14:32
get away from him Libby losing her shoe in the process or did the bridge guy then place it there or throw it there
00:14:40
discard of it there for for whatever reason later but then that's interesting what you just brought up it could be
00:14:46
just as simple as Libby dropped the phone to either abandon it to to be able to run away faster or dropped it on
00:14:56
accident or dropped it to seal it so he wouldn't know that she filmed him I do think there's more on the video and
00:15:04
audio than police are revealing partially also because we didn't even know it was a video until last year like
00:15:11
they didn't release that until 2019 April literally a year ago yeah so a couple things that that I believe and
00:15:18
again this is just my opinion in regards to the video and the Audio I do think that there is more that was recorded
00:15:25
there was more that was recorded I think that probably what we have here is whatever else they have in addition
00:15:33
to what they've released is of no benefit to the public to the victims or to the
00:15:40
investigation meaning I don't think that we have much more of the offender of the
00:15:45
bridge guy I think there's no reason for me to believe that we are not seeing the
00:15:52
best image that they have of bridge guy what would be the benefit to their investigation to withhold a better image
00:15:58
image of him from the public when you've clearly told us time and time again for
00:16:03
3 years that you need the Public's assistance so that just doesn't ring true to me that there would be
00:16:09
additional better images of the bridge guy I think that there's probably some additional images of the bridge guy but
00:16:15
the one that we're seeing is the best one that they are able to provide to us and then in regards to the audio I think
00:16:22
that there's definitely more audio one thing that Anna did say was you know gave us a brief description of the audio
00:16:30
she could make out again we don't know that that law enforcement showed the family every everything that they had we
00:16:38
just don't know that the family seems to think that they saw everything that law
00:16:42
enforcement had but we just don't know in regards to the audio the statements I saw from from the family was that there
00:16:52
was much more audio than there was video so that goes back to the idea that the phone was concealed or dropped at some
00:16:58
some point and from from from filming more video but then on top of that if you have additional audio I think that what
00:17:08
you probably have is a lot of talk between the two victims which doesn't help the the
00:17:17
public identify the bridge guy so there's no need to release any of that and then on top of that if you do have
00:17:25
additional audio from the bridge guy it may be to a point where he is initiating
00:17:32
certain threats that may be even detailed threats and we know that they've withheld a bunch of information
00:17:39
the cause of death they've withheld if if they were sexually assaulted how he gained control of them there could be
00:17:47
details inside those threats that would be would be bad for the investigation because they're withholding that other
00:17:54
information right and just to bounce off of that um so that audio that the police
00:18:00
did eventually release where it says guys down the hill I've actually seen quite a few people like try to analyze
00:18:10
that audio and I think I actually sent you a copy of it as well that someone tried to clear it up so it's very
00:18:15
apparent while looking at this from a sound point of view like looking at it underneath audio editing equipment you
00:18:23
can see a definite cut in the two sections my guess is there's more of the offender in the audio and I agree as
00:18:34
well that it's probably something not that should not be shared with the public at least right now as far as what
00:18:42
happened with the crime whether or not he described what he did to the girls or went into great detail or you know
00:18:47
something um but I do think I I just my guts telling me there's more on the audio and video than what they're
00:18:55
they're sharing ultimately so some information real quick that I have here in my notes sorry
00:19:02
I'm going through my notes as we go through this Libby cell phone was they did a factory reset 10 days before the
00:19:10
murder this was because the phone was all boogered up with a whole bunch of unnecessary data and probably games and
00:19:17
things like that that's why they were not able to use the Find My Phone app because a lot of the apps that were on
00:19:26
her phone had not been loaded back on on to the phone after this factory reset because that's what her grandmother
00:19:34
Becky would have used to track her down right so then take that a step further what we have here
00:19:42
is the phone was recovered at the scene we don't know where exactly but it's stated as found close to the
00:19:51
scene law enforcement has confirmed that they have more audio and video and all of the audio they have is from the video
00:20:01
that Libby filmed meaning there there's there's not a separate recording that's Audio Only and their statement here from
00:20:08
my notes Libby filmed using the standard video recording camera feature on her iPhone now I have a question that
00:20:17
picture of Abby on the bridge that was taken that day right yes yeah so that's definitely
00:20:26
Snapchat so correct yeah I mean well and if that's the case then that it was record I mean and
00:20:34
obviously you know anyone who has a phone we know we can just press the button and it records the whole time
00:20:39
that's interesting so it was Tobe lesen be who stated publicly that the crime is
00:20:46
not on the recording and I believe that was his exact words the crime is not on the recording again I have to believe
00:20:53
that means the the double homicide itself with the SnapChat thing first of all you're talking to the wrong guy I've
00:21:01
never used Snapchat I don't I don't know I don't even I barely even know what it
00:21:06
is to be honest with you what I have here is interesting because the we do know what time that that Snapchat went
00:21:16
out so the timing of that is 2:07 p.m. that the Snapchat goes out the interesting thing there is there's no
00:21:25
Bridge guy behind Abby at that time we know based off of sunlight and shadows and other
00:21:33
information that the bridge guy is approaching them between 2:20 and 2:30 p.m. so shortly after that Snapchat
00:21:43
minutes after that Snapchat we now have Bridge guy in pursuit of the two girls and what's fascinating and terrifying to
00:21:52
me too is I believe that either if they're already recording the video or if they were inspired to then record the
00:22:00
video there's somebody else on the bridge which seems haunting on its own he's by
00:22:07
himself again haunting why is he walking so fast why is he approaching us so fast
00:22:14
and the terrifying thing for these two girls again ages 14 and 13 years old they can clearly see a grown man
00:22:22
approaching them very quickly on this rickety Old Bridge you're now left with two options you're either going to be if
00:22:31
you let him keep approaching you you're either going to be in close quarters with this individual that you're already
00:22:37
kind of put off of or your other option is to have to cross him on that bridge just that alone you're kind of
00:22:49
you're really boxed into a corner if you're Libyan Abby here and that that thought there just terrifies me and I
00:22:55
think that that that thought alone explains the inspiration for for the for filming him be it if you were already
00:23:04
filming something else or if you were inspired to do so because of the sight of him now what we also can piece
00:23:12
together is that very likely Libby who's recording is already off of the bridge she's on the what I refer to as the dead
00:23:23
end side of the bridge she's already off of the bridge and you can see that she at one point is filming Abby who's
00:23:31
making her way toward the dead IDE and then at some point they become aware of the bridge guy and then what happens
00:23:38
after that we don't know we can piece together too though some point he's able to take control of the girls and attempt
00:23:47
I believe he was successful moving them directing them where he wanted them to go for for a portion of time that he was
00:23:54
successful with that I think at some point it it it may have got away from him so
00:24:00
something I'm thinking I don't remember off the top of my head which podcast it was that mentioned this but they had
00:24:07
made a comment that it was common for Abby to take pictures of random people out in the public um you know
00:24:17
secretively of course and like send it to people and like oh that's your boyfriend joking right which is a total
00:24:24
teenage girl thing to do speaking as once being a teenage girl so it almost makes me wonder if that's what the
00:24:33
ultimate like cause of the videoing was and we know that the video is the SnapChat thing is from that day one
00:24:40
because it was posted that day but on top of that Abby that was her first time crossing the bridge to my knowledge from
00:24:47
everything I've heard that that was the first time she crossed the bridge so it's almost like we have we have her her
00:24:54
best friend memorializing that event with that Snapchat post and then we have okay whole different reason whole
00:25:04
different action now we got Bridge guy we got video of bridge guy which we know was recorded using the standard video
00:25:11
recording camera feature on her iPhone the other interesting thing too we talked about the timing of everything
00:25:17
that the bridge guy was on the bridge between 220 and 230 roughly the spot where he is
00:25:25
recorded is St ated by and I can't recall I'm going off a memory here if he's the former prosecutor or current
00:25:34
prosecutor I'm guessing he's the former Robert IES he says the image of the bridge guy that we have seen publicly
00:25:43
was recorded at a great distance and based off of the markings on the bridge we're able to determine that the
00:25:53
suspect at that point is approximately 60 feet from the end of the bridge and that bridge from what I've seen the
00:26:05
locals say takes about six minutes to cross this goes back to a theory that that I threw out there when we covered
00:26:14
it on True Crime garage and I'm still of this theory that he was approaching them
00:26:19
and he was approaching them rather quickly that he was moving across that bridge at a faster than normal rate and
00:26:26
that might have been something that tipped them off why would he go that fast that it almost feels like to me
00:26:33
that the two knew or were suspicious of his movements believing at some point he's either going to approach us or he
00:26:42
might be after [Music] us if there is something interfering with your happiness or preventing you
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the counselor you'll love that's betterhelp.com garage [Music] mentioning Robert IES he is the one that
00:28:07
said that several things about the crime scene were odd and I found this interesting and I do know a little bit
00:28:14
of the production between the two podcast scene of the crime was was the production was completed on that before
00:28:23
down the hill was completed they both came out roughly about the but what I found interesting was theast
00:28:31
between the twoin that of Robert IES statements where on scene of the crime he says
00:28:37
there were several things about the crime scene that were odd and it's almost like he it's almost like loose
00:28:44
lips sink ships once the toothpaste is out of the tube you can't put it back in but he tries to walk it back a little
00:28:51
bit like you know there there are there are always odd things about a murder scene it felt a little telling like no
00:29:01
maybe th maybe this crime scene has things about it that are more strange than the typical crime scene and then
00:29:09
later on down the hill he's now referring to these rather than odd things as signatures and it's almost like he
00:29:20
was schooled to to start using the word signature or if it maybe it was a theatrics thing I don't know but I
00:29:29
cannot shake either of those statements I cannot get them out of my head I cannot quit circling round and round
00:29:36
about what they could mean and you and I touched upon that a little bit in our conversations I don't know take me into
00:29:42
your thoughts when you hear somebody that close to the case say a statement like that I can totally agree with that
00:29:50
the odd crime scene comment has stuck with me this entire time since it was said um cuz you know obviously your mind
00:29:58
starts racing like okay what in the heck could that mean and you know no no crime
00:30:03
scene is a good crime scene you know like it's to say that it's odd really makes me think that so and also too um
00:30:14
the First Responders they had made a comment too in the podcast I think it was down the hill that they all had to
00:30:22
decompress that evening so when I hear it was an odd crime scene they had to decompress that evening
00:30:29
which of course you know the murder of two children that is not an easy thing to deal with as a first responder or
00:30:36
investigator that is not a good thing that never sits well but for to make a point to say that almost all of the
00:30:46
people involved all of the First Responders involved had to decompress that evening because that was the like
00:30:52
like severeness of the crime scenea exactly exactly which I mean you know we hear that First
00:31:00
Responders need to decompress when they see some really messed up things which rightfully so then the mentioning of the
00:31:10
signatures so the second I heard that I was like okay that's really interesting to hear that there are signatures
00:31:17
involved in the case and to know about all the different rumors that are circulating around it
00:31:25
immediately made me think that there might be some value to some of those rumors you know I mean there were people
00:31:31
there at the crime scene the person who found them was a family member of libes I believe for them to say their
00:31:40
signatures I know you and I have kind of discussed this um what the difference between a signature and an MO is right
00:31:46
so it it's it just like I mean should we go into the rumors or well yeah I think we should
00:31:55
because part of this that I'm hoping oping to achieve with our discussion here today
00:32:00
is some of the old rumors that we're circling around they've made their way back again
00:32:08
and I think it's because of the two podcasts which is strange to me because they were so complete and concise about
00:32:16
the information that they were putting out but again it's always going to go back to the law enforcement has not
00:32:21
released much information so then that that only inspires the rumor mill but I think that some of the some of the
00:32:29
rumors are one they're just negative toward the victims negative toward the families and they hold no Truth at all
00:32:38
so not only am I hoping that our discussion has some some interesting opinions and some interesting takes and
00:32:45
theories on what might have actually happened but also to to squash some of those rumors that are showing their ugly
00:32:53
face again so I think the other interesting thing here to keep in mind and correct me if I'm wrong Melissa
00:33:00
but Robert IES was pressed they're like what do you mean by signatures can you tell us what they were and he's of
00:33:08
course he's like no I cannot tell you what they were I believe he was pressed to say well how many signatures or how
00:33:15
many odd things or off things would you say that you saw at this crime scene and
00:33:22
I believe his exact words were two or three I feel like three feels like more familiar to me to the point where I I
00:33:30
wonder if if he did say three but two or three is what I've been kind of working
00:33:34
off of based off of his statements if I'm remembering correct and I think too he says at least two or three at least
00:33:42
at least stuck with me I mean I feel like that leaves room now for like tons of speculation because it's like what
00:33:49
else was at that crime scene so um I know some of the like most popular theories are um and what we I can can
00:33:57
also mention that Facebook message that I had found so there's a screenshot that's been circulating around by the
00:34:02
person who actually found the girls um who saw the shoe first looked up ended up finding them so there's a Facebook
00:34:12
messeng Messenger picture going around stating that Libby was nearly decapitated and that it was obviously
00:34:21
personal towards her which is an interesting you know thing to say especially if they did not know the
00:34:30
person well and again this is not a the person that's giving that opinion that they believe it to be personal is not an
00:34:39
expert no can we agree on that and and should we take it a step further and question the the validity of that
00:34:47
screenshot oh I I would say yes well not only that but I think because that screenshot has circulated around this
00:34:55
person is now a favorite suspect of many online sths which is kind of interesting
00:35:02
but um just to roll off of that though I've heard many rumors and I'm not sure if you've heard the same rumors that
00:35:09
Libby had to wear a scarf at the funeral yeah that's been a pretty common one to
00:35:14
go around and actually I've seen it said that both were wearing scarfs at their funerals I I mean I don't know if that's
00:35:24
true obviously I was was not there and um I don't know if that's true but I will tell you this I am of the belief
00:35:32
and I'm basing this off of things that I've seen and heard and a lot of it mind you is second and third hand but I'm
00:35:38
hearing this from and seeing this from some trusting from some trusting persons and
00:35:45
sources and this is not Insider information this is my opinion I believe that the that it was a
00:35:53
bladed weapon that was used in the in the attack of of the girls I think that it was a gun that was used to
00:36:03
control them and to move them but because of how loud a gun is when it came time to you know that it was a
00:36:12
bladed weapon that was used for that portion of the of the crime now that's interesting and I don't know that I want
00:36:18
to take any further than that um as far as what the injuries could be and then you take it a step further and you say
00:36:26
well and you bring up a really good thought it's it's this lay person's opinion that it was personal based upon
00:36:37
the injuries they saw or may have seen that it was personal against you said Libby yes yeah
00:36:45
here's where I take that a step further and and and you said well that's interesting especially if they didn't
00:36:51
know them it's almost implying that the the victim and the offender knew one another another but we've seen plenty of
00:36:58
crimes we've seen plenty of murders where it it appears to be personal in nature but they didn't know each other
00:37:06
and that can happen for a multitude of reasons one did Libby present certain problems to the
00:37:14
offender and really piss the guy off or did he or did she really fight him fight back in a in a good strong way
00:37:24
and it became personal for him the other thing too that people often point out is
00:37:30
overkill well the the offender must have known the victim because of the overkill
00:37:36
that we see at the scene or on the victim or the overkill that's um presumed to be at the scene since we
00:37:43
don't know exactly how they died you know looking at other cases not this case but there were plenty of Ted
00:37:53
Bundy's victims that had the appearance of over Overkill because that's how he preferred to kill the victim that's how
00:38:00
he naturally attacked these victims and he didn't know any of them where there's
00:38:06
Overkill does not necessarily have to mean that the offender knows the victim or has a a specific hate for that victim
00:38:14
that they want to destroy because that's what you see with Overkill you often say
00:38:19
um to to kill somebody is to take them away to to end their lives but the overkill is the emotion is they want to
00:38:27
destroy that person you don't necessarily have to know them to have that hate the victim could be a surate
00:38:34
which is seen represent it's it's seen a lot it could and it's with some of these killers
00:38:40
serial killers in particular some of them it's just a a a general hatred for women in general and and that all that
00:38:49
means is that for Overkill to be present is that the victim is a woman I don't know I've not heard rumors of of of
00:38:57
Overkill here with Deli but I have heard and seen the rumors of it possibly being
00:39:04
personal with in regards to Libby I think that that means something that that doesn't necessarily mean that they
00:39:14
were that they the perpetrator knew either one of the victims I think this was a stranger abduction and attack and
00:39:22
I think that's part of the reason why the investigation has been so difficult and I think that it became it may have
00:39:29
become personal for the killer so this is um something I've gone back and forth on a
00:39:36
lot let me ask your opinion do you think that the girls were killed at the scene
00:39:42
we have a vague statement from law enforcement that would lead us or lead me to believe that their statement is
00:39:48
they were killed where they were found and people have taken that you can take that a million different ways where they
00:39:55
taken off someplace else and then returned to the general area and killed there I don't think any of that went
00:40:03
down I think that this the general statement of they were killed where they were found and they would have evidence
00:40:08
to prove that to them to law enforcement it wouldn't be very hard for them to figure that
00:40:14
out but I think that you have to take in account a few different things all of these crimes and anytime you have a
00:40:19
murder especially with a double homicide you have you have multiple crimes that happened during the commission from the
00:40:25
start to finish of this we know that they were abducted at some point because they were moved they were under his
00:40:30
control and moved somewhere that they would not want to be so that is the definition of being abducted and then
00:40:38
they are killed what we have here to me is there there's not a lot of time that goes by from the time that he Bridge guy
00:40:47
first comes on the scene to the girls to the time when they're probably when it's
00:40:52
probably all over with and he's in the process of fleeing the area we have law enforcement statements that say and
00:40:59
again they're they're speculating as well because until we catch the guy we just don't know but they're saying that
00:41:06
on their press releases with the description of the bridge guy and images of the bridge guy they state that it's
00:41:13
believed he left the area by 5:00 p.m. but could have still been there in the general area when the family started
00:41:20
searching for the girls the other difficult thing here which is weird about the phone with going back to
00:41:27
Libby's phone is we have Derek who was there to pick them up he calls Libby's phone at 311 that afternoon because he
00:41:36
can't find the girls now a couple tricky things here she doesn't pick up the phone you could take that one of two
00:41:43
ways whatever happened already happened or by 311 or she's under the control of bridge guy or has dropped the phone by
00:41:53
that time there's also some interesting speculation that we know to be true is with the with the camera feature that
00:42:02
she was using to record the video if you have an incoming call on that iPhone that she had it would it would stop the
00:42:12
recording is that what stopped the recording eventually the phone goes dead eventually that you know it's going to
00:42:18
to voicemail at some point then you take it a step further if they were afraid enough to
00:42:24
record video why not just call 911 right you know like right you got to think that may have been an option I'm sure
00:42:32
that there's somewhere places that your phone just won't work but why was that option not used or and here's a little
00:42:40
safety tip for anybody out there if you're approached by somebody that that that they know they're aware that
00:42:48
you saw them already and they're trying to abduct you at the very least lie to them and tell them you've already called
00:42:55
911 even if you feel like you can't in that very moment tell them that you've already called yeah can't hurt by that
00:43:01
point no I mean shoot yeah and it's just making me think like at what point were they under his
00:43:11
control at what point did they feel unsafe what was it during the video was it after the video did it and I think
00:43:19
that's a really interesting point too that if I had to guess that's most likely how the video stopped was
00:43:25
probably the call coming in from her father and that's just my opinion obviously but yeah no it just makes me
00:43:31
wonder at what point they knew they were in trouble and why they didn't feel comfortable I
00:43:38
mean unless he had had a weapon on them at that point yeah which is I I think I mean and you got to think too it's very
00:43:45
difficult to handle two victims at one time even if you're a man like into small smaller teenage girls um and I
00:43:54
want to say too they don't think think that the murderer is a very tall large person they think he's on the shorter
00:44:02
side and what did they say thought I heard like 5'9 to 5'11 but I could be wrong don't quote me on that I'm G to
00:44:08
pull it up I I have the FBI seeking information flyer here somewhere 56 to 510 yeah I mean that's a short guy and
00:44:18
they put him at 180 to 200 lb which is interesting because that's from the the newest information
00:44:26
because the old information had him about 20b heavier but the same height yeah I mean how How could
00:44:34
somebody of that stature and I want to say Libby was taller for her age I I believe she would probably would have
00:44:42
been close to that height and I know Abby was a little bit smaller but to be able to control two victims at one time
00:44:49
that is not an easy thing to do by any means that's what you need the gun for un or some weapon um right and this is
00:44:58
going back to the statement that Doug Carter stated Kelsey said as well they both are of the belief that the the
00:45:06
bridge guy that wasn't his first time Crossing that bridge they both they're saying anyone that has
00:45:15
walked that bridge before would understand that and I've never walked the bridge so I don't know but I'm going
00:45:20
to believe them with that statement which is interesting meaning he's either from the area or currently lives in the
00:45:27
general area or or at least has been to that location a time or two before where I take it a step further is
00:45:36
if you the a map of the general area is so key for anybody that's trying to look
00:45:41
into this case and do a little bit of their own web sleo thing a little bit of their own armchair detective work here
00:45:48
because if you look at the way that that whole situation is laid out if he's familiar with the area if he this is
00:45:56
where you got to put yourself in the mind of the killer of the perpetrator he chose that area he didn't
00:46:02
just end up there by accident that day he chose that area and if we're if we're to believe that he used a gun to control
00:46:10
them if we if he brought weapons with him to the scene there's every indication that he went there and he's
00:46:17
using this as some type of hunting ground now he is using that bridge as a strategy he
00:46:29
knows that once somebody gets more than halfway across that bridge that either he can go to the other side of the
00:46:38
bridge and pin them down or they at the very least have to pass him on that b Bridge as they're coming back trying to
00:46:46
get to to the opposite side I think he was looking for a certain type of victim and I think he was looking for them to
00:46:54
put thems in a state of vulnerability and the bridge is what caused them to be vulnerable if he's up on a bridge with
00:47:02
them right a bridge is not stable like and if you look at pictures of this bridge it is an Old Bridge um yeah so I
00:47:11
mean you got to think I mean if all it would take is one of them to push him off and it's like even if you have a
00:47:16
weapon on them it's still a very risky area to try to take control of two teenage girls and part I think not only
00:47:25
is he chasing after them but I think that's why I believe him to be moving so quickly across the bridge and there's a
00:47:34
lot of other people that share that opinion is that he wants to catch them at that state of being vulnerable and
00:47:41
that that area for him is getting them on the dead end side of the bridge and I think that I think that as
00:47:48
fast as they saw him moving is what inspired the the fear that that sent up the red flags about there's something
00:47:56
not right with this guy let's go back to our our takes on the the crime scene itself and there being at least two or
00:48:06
three signatures or at least two or three things that were off or odd about the scene according to Robert IES take
00:48:13
that for what it is but but look at the surface of what we do know and see if any of the things that we already know
00:48:21
could apply to that statement one thing that we do know is multiple victims at one time is a rare it's a rare
00:48:31
thing so is Robert IES lumping in the fact that we know that there are two victims as being a signature or
00:48:39
something that was off or odd and now are we down to just two things that we have to try to decipher what was was off
00:48:47
or OD and you know i' I've heard theories that a lot of people believe this was the first time this suspect or
00:48:54
um perpetrator had killed somebody I I I'm not sure how people have drawn that conclusion being we know
00:49:01
so little about the crime itself if it were his first time offending to initially take on two victims at once
00:49:09
and like you how you had said it's it's rare and it's not a common thing and it makes me think that somebody who is just
00:49:20
you know starting to kill would not necessarily go straight away for two team teers yeah it seems like a more
00:49:27
difficult situation that anytime you increase your level of risk you're increas increasing your level of risk of
00:49:35
getting caught and these guys that fantasize about violence that fantasize about abduction or killing they want to
00:49:45
be successful in what it is that they set out to do so they do not want to increase the risk of getting caught
00:49:51
number one but they also don't want to increase the risk of not being successful in living out their fantasy
00:49:58
their violent fantasy the thing that gets difficult there is you have to because we don't know who bridg guy
00:50:06
is we do not know what his fantasy was what his intention was what his plan was is there a chance that he was unaware
00:50:17
until it was too late that he was approaching two people instead of just one I think that's on the Slimmer side
00:50:25
of of possibilities I think it's very likely that he knew he was approaching too because I keep going back to that
00:50:33
he's looking for not only a certain type of victim but a victim that puts themselves in a in a certain spot in
00:50:40
that that state of being vulnerable I don't think that two victims was a signature but I think
00:50:48
there's a purpose for it I think there's a reason behind it why he chose to rather than one I or maybe the
00:50:58
numberers not so much important but the people that he saw the targets that he saw I think there's reasoning behind
00:51:05
that like maybe he set his eyes on one of the girls and the other one with collateral damage that's always a
00:51:10
thought process that's a strong possibility yeah the other strong possibility is were these the first two
00:51:18
Targets that he saw that didn't contain a male or was this the smallest group of
00:51:23
people that he saw I have some belief and I don't know for certain but there are some statements and some witness
00:51:33
reports eyewitness reports who people that were in the area around this time of day where it seems to me like he may
00:51:42
have had the opportunity to go after a single female uh a woman or a or a younger lady
00:51:52
by themselves now we don't know that we can't say for certain that he actually saw that Target and decided to pass on
00:52:00
it but there seems to be enough evidence out there to me that that is a possibility that he that he didn't
00:52:08
choose that Target for some reason so then that makes me go back to well maybe it's it's either this type of victim the
00:52:16
number of targets that was important enough for him to move in and act because one thing we do know is we don't
00:52:23
have anybody coming forward saying oh I was attacked or approached by some weird
00:52:28
guy on this day around this time that didn't happen so it almost appears like whoever he first set out to go after he
00:52:36
he did he actually went after them there's also zero this is the one rumor that I would love to squash right
00:52:45
here there is zero evidence or zero reason to believe we cannot say for certain but there is zero evidence to
00:52:53
suggest that he went there targeting one or both of these girls specifically that
00:52:59
he knew that they would be there and he went there for the purpose of going after one or both of them
00:53:05
so we we can state that for several reasons one it was kind of a last minute trip that they went out there and two
00:53:15
this isn't like a super secluded place this is a place that a lot of people went to to go hiking especially younger
00:53:23
teenagers to hang out or hike the trails which makes me wonder if he if he knew the bridge and he knew that area well
00:53:30
enough he would have known the type of people that would have ventured to go there especially during the middle of
00:53:36
the day of a on a work week and that also tells me maybe he was looking for that type of victim your show's called
00:53:43
victimology so I don't have to explain to you there there is these perpetrators have uh have a victim type often and be
00:53:53
it if they're a Serial offender or not a one off if you're going to try to profile the offender it's as important
00:54:00
to profile the victim and as important to profile the area and just to bounce off of that
00:54:08
so one really huge issue with the information we know about this case is and I think this is the reason why
00:54:17
people are so upset that it has not been solved and that we don't know more is because we don't know what the
00:54:23
motivation was behind the crime they have never said if it was sexually motivated if it was a rage killing if it
00:54:31
was a mission killing they have never ever clarified on their thought process on that so we don't know if the ultimate
00:54:39
goal was to have some sort of sexual fantasy fulfilled by the girls death deaths so and I know um there's a lot of
00:54:48
theories out there that a lot of weird post-mortem activity had happened and I really don't hold a lot
00:54:54
of I I don't think they hold much water let's put it that way well again that goes back
00:55:01
to if that that means he has to stay there longer and longer every every weird postmortem activity
00:55:10
that that he's supposed to have done means he's there longer at the scene and again increasing his risk
00:55:20
level of getting caught or being seen with the victims after the fact and I I do think that there was some
00:55:29
stuff done and I think that that is really where I want to mesh two statements together where we have Robert
00:55:37
Ives who says there were two or three signatures at least two or three signatures we also have Doug Carter the
00:55:44
spokesperson for and I know that's not his proper title but he's done he's The Upfront one he is the the face and the
00:55:51
voice of the press conferences coming out of the Indiana State Police his statement when he was addressing the
00:56:00
killer you know and he got real personal with his statements and I loved that I loved the aggressiveness of his
00:56:07
statements and addressing the killer directly in some of those press conferences but one of his statements
00:56:13
was he says something like I can promise you they are not the way that you left them that day
00:56:21
yeah and that to me does tell me that there was there was some postmortem activity that
00:56:29
was that were actions by the Killer and I almost feel like that is an attempt to
00:56:37
slap the killer in the face because we see this with a lot of these guys they have fantasies leading up to
00:56:45
the to the commission of these types of crimes and then they have fantasies after the fact and some of them want to
00:56:52
relive what took place when they committed some of these crimes to me that's almost like we know you did some
00:57:00
things to these to the victims or to the area it's not that way today so get it out of your head quit fantasizing about
00:57:10
it what what you think that you created no longer exist to me that points out one of the most common signatures that
00:57:19
you will find out there is the posing of a victim so feel like to me meshing Carter's statement with Robert I's
00:57:30
statement I feel like posing one or both of the victims is probably I would put that at a high
00:57:39
probability I would also think that there's probably some type of covering of the victims be it with sticks leaves
00:57:46
debris or all of the above because one thing we do know is we have statements from The Searchers that say you know we
00:57:54
were in that very general area the night before and we didn't find them we found
00:57:59
them the next day during daylight and then that has spread the bad rumor that the bodies were moved or the victims
00:58:08
were were taken away from the scene and then brought back at some point I think people are overanalyzing that I think
00:58:16
it's just as simple as it was dark out right and they didn't and there may have been some camouflage involved be it
00:58:24
leaves sticks debris covering of the bodies that prevented them from finding them that night under the cover of
00:58:33
Darkness the other thing we have to factor in there too Melissa is keep in mind at night you believe you're looking
00:58:41
for two girls who are alive and well that's a much different thing and I I still think they The Searchers believe
00:58:49
that they were looking for two girls that were alive and well the next day but now that the fear level has
00:58:54
increased for the Searchers because the time that has expired but that night you're not you're looking in a different
00:59:02
way you're out in the dark you're calling the girls names hoping to hear them respond to your voice and when you
00:59:09
don't get that you kind of quickly move on in that situation you're hoping to cover as much ground as possible we just
00:59:16
reviewed a case on True Crime garage it was the Evansdale murders where the two victims were found in a remote location
00:59:24
and it was such a remote dense area that the the officer said had these Hunters just been five feet or so in a
00:59:36
different direction they would have never have seen the bodies so I I don't think that them not finding them that
00:59:42
night means anything other than they didn't find them that night they were probably there the whole time but then
00:59:49
it also takes you a step further to go okay well what was the signature were they posed were they covered
00:59:55
were they both was it both one of the other theories I had heard and I really don't think there's much to it um is
01:00:02
that the girls were wearing each other's clothes the reason I don't think that's
01:00:07
the case because the person who actually found the bodies um I I believe the way
01:00:13
it happened is he saw the shoe on the ground looked at the shoe began to look up and ended up seeing Libby in her
01:00:19
tie-dye shirt I don't think that they were NE neily dressed in each other's clothing I thought that was
01:00:26
kind of an iffy one the posing though I totally could see some some form of that
01:00:34
and also too I had also heard a rumor that um either both of them were nude or one but um the wearing each other's
01:00:41
clothing I really don't think that's the case the rumor I heard was that one of them was completely clothed or found in
01:00:51
all the clothing that they were last wearing and then that one of them might have been somewhat undressed but not
01:00:58
completely nude and again that's just the rumor I heard I think this whole thing with them being an each other's
01:01:03
clothing is probably a rumor that just started at the very local level and grew legs for some reason it doesn't
01:01:13
seem like a likely scenario because you're going to have to if you're the perpetrator you're going to have to have
01:01:20
them carry out that act for you or you're going to have to strip them and redress them it see again it's like a
01:01:29
whole lot of extra unnecessary things going on and usually there is a very usually there's a very simple
01:01:38
explanation to what happened and why the issue being for us on the outside trying
01:01:45
to look in one we don't have much information to work off of but two we also don't know
01:01:52
as you pointed out the M MO or the intentions of the perpetrator it's hard to profile him and profile his actions
01:02:01
and what he did or may have done that day because we don't know what what the intent was I I keep seeing a scene where
01:02:12
his intentions were to do something different and it went sideways at some point and then he he attacked and killed
01:02:21
the girls either out of necessity or out of anger and I know it seems like a very
01:02:26
simple explanation but I to me that there seems to be some information out there that might point to that the the
01:02:33
the shoe on the other side of the water and then if you're we know he's directing them we we know that 100%
01:02:42
because we have the one line of down the hill he's telling them go down the hill
01:02:49
he's not saying look there's a deer where is it down that that Hill no he's directing them to go where he wants them
01:02:56
to go he's moving these people along and why is he moving them where is he taking them what is his intention with
01:03:05
that and then take I take it a step further why if if they were killed where they were
01:03:12
found I I have to question that he didn't direct them to that area why would he take them why
01:03:19
would he choose to take them across the water when he didn't have to yeah and you know he could have taken dry land
01:03:25
elsewhere the water seems like an added an added risk level one to and just kind
01:03:34
of a dumb move if if he were smart enough and and look I'm giving him a lot of credit when I say some of these
01:03:41
things and and I and I know that I'm just speculating on a lot but if he was smart enough to choose a victim because
01:03:47
they put themselves on the dead end side of the bridge that's a tactical move why would
01:03:52
he then do something as stupid as to lead them across the water when there's so much other dry land right in the
01:03:59
immediate area that you could have just directed them that's where I almost wonder did they did they decide to make
01:04:07
a run for it at some point or did he lose control of the situation and they fled yeah that's that is one of the
01:04:12
things that I often question so the thing that always comes to my mind is the shoe that was left right did that
01:04:19
fall off while she was fleeing and running or did that come off because the per was dragging her or she's or she's
01:04:27
trying to run full speed across across the water I mean we've all done that and your shoes immediately become soaked and
01:04:34
super heavy and you can you can easily slip out of one of the shoes in regards to the clothing thing we do have
01:04:41
statements from law enforcement that there was some clothing that was found under or near the bridge so this would
01:04:48
be kind of Downstream from where the bodies were found the issue being is we don't have confirmation that it belonged
01:04:57
to the victims or that it has anything to do with the crime at all and then you have to wonder if it did belong to the
01:05:03
victims did the killer place them there for whatever reason or to like mislead them yeah my question is depending on
01:05:13
the type of crime committed I mean if a knife were involved right there would be blood MH
01:05:22
this person would most likely have blood all over themselves and would draw attention to themselves trying to leave
01:05:28
the area yes so I mean unless those clothes underneath belong to the killer like he had stashed something somewhere
01:05:36
or you know he knew he was going to commit a crime that day and tried to plan to the best of his ability or he
01:05:43
left some of his items behind that were covered in blood that's interesting too because one of the statements is that
01:05:49
there was so much evidence left at the scene so you have to wonder do they believe or do they know that he left
01:05:56
some of his belongings there and he does appear to be overdressed when he's on the bridge and one thing that I've come
01:06:05
across many times with people that do like that that try to sneak into a home and steal things or break into a home
01:06:12
and steal things that they will often if they're if they're people that are experienced at doing this they will
01:06:17
often wear multiple shirts and maybe even multiple head coverings or at least one because they
01:06:27
know that if they if anybody sees them if they if somebody spots them either in the house or fleeing the scene oh we got
01:06:36
a we got a male black shirt jeans well if he sheds if in the in the process of fleeing the area if he sheds
01:06:45
his black shirt now he's wearing instead of a black sweatshirt he's wearing a white
01:06:49
T-shirt you you might you might overlook him when you see him again and so you have to wonder is he wearing
01:06:57
extra clothing for to protect his person or because he plans on leaving some of it at the scene if it does in fact get
01:07:06
bloody so when you said so much evidence at the scene um it made me think so a lot of times with criminals you know
01:07:13
they're obviously categorized as organized or disorganized when they leave evidence at a scene that is
01:07:20
indicative of a disorganized criminal but if he were to have planned to leave evidence at the scene it completely
01:07:29
switches the mo on its head to where the purp is now an organized criminal which
01:07:35
is really kind of interesting and it you know it's like if we knew more we could
01:07:40
probably figure it out but unfortunately or at least share what the police know with the way that I think this attack
01:07:47
went down I think we're dealing with and you can't have a mixed a mixed offender
01:07:52
as well that shows signs are both organized and disorganized but I feel to me like with the planning that I believe
01:07:59
was in play here I believe we're dealing with an organized individual now did things get go sideways on him and his
01:08:08
plan got thrown out the window completely and it just got out of control that's a possibility I also
01:08:13
wonder though too with the word the vague word of evidence that doesn't have to necessarily mean that it's evidence
01:08:19
against the perpetrator it may just be evidence that there things at the crime scene that tell them more exactly what
01:08:27
happened and how things went down and it doesn't really point to who committed it
01:08:33
it's just they can connect the dots and know kind of the general timeline and what took place when but then on top of
01:08:42
that you also have to wonder this being out in the open in a public place does some of that evidence quote unquote
01:08:49
evidence some of the stuff that you're collecting at the scene is it just just debris just things that have been left
01:08:53
by other people at other times and it has nothing to do with the case at all you and I talked a lot about Amy I just
01:09:00
say that yep yep yeah they found her off the side of the road they collected every piece of debris that they could
01:09:06
find up and down that stretch of road and we have to believe very little of it little of it actually had to do with the
01:09:13
crime at all when they say evidence you also wonder does does that just mean we found all this stuff and we have to we
01:09:20
have to go through it piece by piece and try to determine if it if it means anything or not and you know that area
01:09:26
too that they were found is technically the property of somebody who lives farther towards like it's like the back
01:09:33
end of somebody's property is where they were found right Ron Logan yes thank you
01:09:38
which is interesting in itself because they are approached we know they are approached on on these Scenic Trails on
01:09:45
these you know public land let's say and then later found on this private land but yeah they they butt up to one
01:09:52
another but I I found that interesting too and that's a question that comes up often too people go well why didn't they
01:09:59
scream and I I mean I look at the location of where they were found eventually and where they were abducted
01:10:04
and I go well they may have and they just nobody heard them or the screams were so far off in the distance that the
01:10:13
people that heard them didn't know they were hearing screams right it if you want to go
01:10:19
like superp super down into it down into the the weeds with me real quick on what
01:10:27
what I think happened here I think the pro a big problem with this case is that whatever he planned on doing it didn't
01:10:35
it didn't work out it's that's not what took place I think he was able to take control and have control for a certain
01:10:41
amount of time and going back to the theory of why take them across the water when there was so much other dry land
01:10:48
that you could Traverse with with your victims as you are directing them where to To Go part of the whole thing about
01:10:57
blood on his person did he plan for that I think he did plan for that but I think
01:11:02
his plan for that was that he was going to be leaving the area in a location where he didn't think he was going to be
01:11:09
seen so that might have just been good enough for him to not have to to put other things into play there to to avoid
01:11:19
that being spotted covered in blood one thing that's weird is we have statements from local law
01:11:28
enforcement that said that they did a sell they subpoena cell phone records within a f mile radius of that
01:11:37
day within the time in question so anyone whose cell phone pinged in that location was contacted and questioned by
01:11:44
police that's their words contacted and questioned by police I have to believe that that involves a face-to-face
01:11:51
conversation where you can see this guy especially where you think that you can see him or make out his features from
01:11:59
from the video that we have of him on the bridge so that brings a whole another thing into play here where and
01:12:08
and they stated that they looked particularly hard at anyone who was new in the area or who was in the area of
01:12:14
the bridge for several hours on that day so they did what I call like a data dump
01:12:21
and I've heard of this type of investigation tactic in other investigations I also know that it it it
01:12:29
is rather difficult to to pull this off this you know what they call data dump but it seems like
01:12:37
they did either successfully or attempted to so if if they were successful with it
01:12:44
you have to take it a step further and go well does that mean he was he was organized enough and sophisticated
01:12:53
enough to not bring his cell phone with him during his time at the moan and high
01:12:59
bridge that day yeah I think I'm leaning more towards that he did not have a cell
01:13:04
phone on him yeah that's that's definitely seems right either he's a dinosaur and
01:13:11
just doesn't own one or he made a he made an a conscious effort to not bring it with
01:13:18
him they've also said that they don't know for certain if he took a vehicle you know if he drove a vehicle there and
01:13:26
left one there and fled in a vehicle or if he walked to this area I find it interesting I personally think that he
01:13:35
drove to the area but then that creates a whole different set of problems for the perpetrator of going undetected but
01:13:43
if he did drive to the area with this data dump investigation it makes me believe he
01:13:51
didn't even leave his his phone in his vehicle that it was just not a part of the plan at all it
01:13:58
was purposely left out and that's where you know I go back into the weeds and I say I think he was
01:14:04
trying to direct them to a vehicle oh I agree I don't think 100% I agree yeah I don't think that he was I don't think
01:14:13
that it went down the way that he wanted it to go down and that is a a big uh Kudos and thank you to the to Abby and
01:14:22
Libby they were you know we we have people on record saying that Libby was a hero
01:14:30
because she filmed the bridge guy we also have Mike Patty on record saying that you know Abby was a hero as well
01:14:38
because the two neither one of them left each other they they wouldn't have left
01:14:43
each other they were best friends till the end and then I take it a step further and say they're both Heroes
01:14:49
because they fought back they whatever this guy wanted to happen it didn't go down the way that he wanted it
01:14:56
to that has led to evidence against him that we will be able to use against him someday so let's talk about the
01:15:06
connection between serial killers and signatures so we know that law enforcement use terms like Mo and
01:15:13
signatures to determine how someone commits a crime and why they commit a crime or what their you know thought
01:15:19
process is so the signature for law enforcement to state that there are signatures
01:15:29
available it most likely points to the fact that they believe this person has offended before or will offend
01:15:37
again there's if it were a one-time crime there would be no need to even mention the signatures that were there
01:15:46
right because the signature is mostly wrapped up in the fantasy of committing this crime so they've thought about they
01:15:52
fantasized about committing this type of crime before and likely still fantasize
01:15:58
about committing this type of crime again and the signature is required by the fantasy and not necessarily required
01:16:06
by the commission of the crime itself right and if it did not go his way it's very possible that the two
01:16:15
girls were killed out of Rage because they did not follow his commands and he ended up still performing some type of
01:16:23
signature that could eventually be connected to his other crimes or future crimes so I I think that's very telling
01:16:31
by them stating there are signatures that they've noticed in the crime and I too I had written down as
01:16:38
well they use the term red flags as well so I I just really in my gut and I've I've actually consulted a couple
01:16:48
different Professionals in the field and I asked them why would law enforcement state that there are signatures in a
01:16:56
crime if they think it's a one-time offender and the answer is they don't they do not think it's a one-time
01:17:03
offender so you know take take everything with a grain of salt but I think they're by saying just this little
01:17:13
statement they're saying a whole lot with it there are some suspects that are known to the public and even their the
01:17:21
Wikipedia page has four or five listed there do you like any of th those suspects we don't need to go through
01:17:27
each one but are there any of those suspects that you like and if so why and if if you don't like any of them what
01:17:37
are your thoughts or suspicions on who this guy could be just um looking at the crime itself I've always thought it's
01:17:45
some type of a truck driver some type of a delivery driver something like that to
01:17:49
where there could have been a vehicle stashed somewhere and it would would have not it would not have raised red
01:17:54
flags in the area um and you know if that were the ultimate goal to get the girls there that would make sense
01:18:01
because that's his domain that's his area that's his property so that being said fairly
01:18:12
recently I want to say close to the beginning of the year there was actually I'm on I'm on a
01:18:19
couple of the um I'm on a couple of the Facebook groups about the Ali case just to watch to see what people are saying
01:18:26
most things I don't take completely seriously um just because again too it's all speculation you know all of this is
01:18:35
speculation but as of late there was actually a man who came on to the group claiming he believes that his brother
01:18:44
committed the crime I believe this person is already in prison So currently he overweight about the same height
01:18:55
somewhere in the same range as what they had originally said um at the time he would have been much thinner and another
01:19:02
thing too we forgot to mention is about the Gate of the person on the bridge so I I've seen a lot of arguments as far as
01:19:10
whether or not this person is walking very particularly because it's unstable or is it because they have some sort of
01:19:19
a limp this specific person is from the area was a truck driver and has a limp he had
01:19:27
had knee surgery or something like that so at the time he would have been about the same size as the suspect's
01:19:35
dimensions so very lightweight on the shorter side so I had actually ended up messaging the brother of this person
01:19:43
just to find out whether or not he has he's communicated with law enforcement and he did message me back and state
01:19:51
that he has um communicated with them and the deli police are aware as well as the FBI so as of right this moment that
01:19:59
is what my gut is telling me um that he looks really good for it why isn't this why isn't this thing solved yet why do
01:20:09
you is there any one thing that you think you can hone in on and point out that you think that hey this is what
01:20:15
they need or this is why they can't find this guy well I think one of the main reasons is time has become the enemy
01:20:23
in the case if and you know we can always say if right if this happened then we would
01:20:30
have him if this happened I really believe though and I think we talked about this in the Amy mahalic case as
01:20:36
well why sit on evidence for that long that could potentially identify somebody and we know with Amy's case they did not
01:20:43
know it was even connected right with this case though they knew that was a video and they did not release any of it
01:20:53
they they sent out a still frame of a person and then they sent out a sketch that was later changed and I I mean I
01:21:03
think unfortunately I don't know if it was a strategy of law enforcement to not let the individual know how much they
01:21:10
had at first um but I mean like my God the the man is captured on tape his voice is captured on tape there's a
01:21:18
video of him available like what what else is it going to take to be able to find this
01:21:24
person I mean I really do think that whoever did Commit This somebody knows it was them whether it's a family member
01:21:32
close friend they know but they just have not spoken up and I mean be with that amount of evidence it would be very
01:21:41
difficult to not identify but at the same time I do think if this information would have been
01:21:47
released previously I have a feeling it would have been solved by now one thing that
01:21:52
has taken over my mindscape in the past few days more so than the statement of there were at least two or three
01:22:00
signatures or at least x amount of things that were odd about the crime scene is I've heard several of the
01:22:08
investigators that are at the very center of this investigation say the same thing and
01:22:16
this is in regards to them talking about the crime scene and potential evidence as well stating that we all thought this
01:22:24
would be solved very quickly we all thought it would just be a day maybe a couple of
01:22:30
days it makes me wonder what happened that's that prevented that from being the case these are seasoned
01:22:38
investigators these are this is not their first rodeo and they're all sharing that same opinion from different
01:22:45
agencies what changed in the investigation that prevented that from happening or you wonder do they did they
01:22:52
think that they had something that they did not did they think that they had something of evidentiary value that
01:22:59
turned out to not be of any value at all like they focused too much on one or two
01:23:05
things that they should have been looking at the bigger grand scheme no not that they mishandled it or went
01:23:11
about it the wrong way just they they thought they had something that that it didn't turn out to be what it appeared
01:23:19
to be on the surface at the crime scene or uh in relation to the case yeah H but to have different
01:23:30
individuals from different agencies all say that same statement and then later we have Doug Carter saying well we think
01:23:35
we were on to something early on in our investigation and that he has that statement right around the time where
01:23:41
they're changing directions they're taking the investigation in a New Direction you know when we get the new
01:23:48
sketch I think the reason why this thing might not be solved I think Bridge guy has a
01:23:55
helper H and I don't that doesn't necessarily there's I think there's something helping him and it's working against the
01:24:07
investigation I think there's an added step there's something extra that law enforcement are up against here that
01:24:14
they may not even be aware that they're up against and what I mean by that is a helper does I don't even know that it
01:24:21
has to be a person it could be some form of Technology it could be a person and again the the person themselves doesn't
01:24:30
necessarily have to be a fullon 100% accomplice it could be somebody that just aided in some manner to this
01:24:40
individual and may not even know that they've helped Bridge guy right and what what any of this could be could be it
01:24:49
could be a false Alibi you could get that with with some kind of technology or a person maybe the person does know
01:24:56
what you've done but you have a false Alibi that that looks and it passes the smell test to investigators to where you
01:25:05
are not on a certain list now because you have this Alibi but but in fact it's not a truthful one at all you could also
01:25:12
come up with a false Alibi based off of technology and I and I don't know exactly how or what I don't have an idea
01:25:19
of what that would be but if you had somebody I think the problem is a lot of people
01:25:25
point out to you well you want somebody that had a type of job or lifestyle that
01:25:30
means that they did not have to be accounted for during that time because they've always told us in their General
01:25:36
profile that this person may have missed an appointment or had an unexcused absence from something during or around
01:25:45
the time of the murders so if they if they didn't if that has not worked on on appr hending this individual then you go
01:25:54
well maybe this person did not have to be accounted for that day at that time and that was my belief for a long time
01:26:01
I'm starting to wonder if if this individual maybe they spoke to them or spoke to the
01:26:08
helper and there's something telling them that this person could not have been in the area at the time but they in
01:26:14
fact very well could have well and it's interesting too um at that at the announcement they had last
01:26:22
year in April um do you remember the comment they they made to the perpetrator who may very well be in this
01:26:29
room and they stopped talking that has stuck out to me too and I think it stuck out to a lot of people
01:26:36
and a lot of people noticed both of them looked in a very specific area of the room did you notice that yeah I noticed
01:26:45
that I I thought that um one the rumor I heard in regards to that was that there was somebody in the
01:26:53
room that has not been fully Cooperative with their investigation and they might be
01:27:01
suspicious of the individual because of that but I've also heard from the press that was present there that day that
01:27:09
they had a different feeling and a different sense yes they were all kind of in shock when they heard that
01:27:15
statement at first and thought well the killer could be in the room but I got the feeling that none of the the press
01:27:22
that that spoke about their experience that day left there thinking that that police believed that the guy was
01:27:29
actually in the room I do think that they purposely because remember they announced I think they made the
01:27:36
announcement on Thursday or Friday that they were going to have an announcement in the case on that Monday on the
01:27:42
following Monday so I think they purposely did that with the intention of giving the bridge guy enough time to get
01:27:49
there should he want to attend that press conference right and what was interesting to me too is the murders
01:27:55
took place on a Monday maybe they're just going off of something as simple as well he was available on that Monday is
01:28:02
there a chance that he's still available on Mondays let's make the press conference on a Monday that's an
01:28:08
interesting thought that's a really interesting thought I really can't shake and I know it seems so stupid and dumb
01:28:15
and out of bounds right now but I cannot shake the fact that I'm I'm really starting to think he had some kind of
01:28:21
helper MH in some way and I and I mean is that somebody that's providing a false Alibi is it somebody that dropped
01:28:30
him off in that area right is there is it somebody that that was not there for the abduction or the killings themselves
01:28:40
but was going to be a part of something later and then that's where I go back to
01:28:45
maybe that's why he passed on the potential of one victim and went went after two just gonna say that oh my gosh
01:28:52
that's why I mean that's a really that could explain the two victim choice and there's a good chance that law
01:29:00
enforcement knows this and you go well why would they hold that back are they trying to appeal to
01:29:08
one of one of the perpetrators right to turn on the other one because under that scenario you may
01:29:16
have two people and and my belief is if it was if he did have a help that the bridge guy is much more guilty
01:29:25
of much more horrible crimes than what the helper would be guilty of and you wonder does Doug Carter come out with
01:29:32
that statement that I believe that you still have just an ounce left of I I can't remember his exact words but he's
01:29:42
he's trying to play to somebody that might have some form of remorse or some form of guilt of their involvement in
01:29:49
this and get them to come forward give them the chance to come forward yeah that help their theories really that's
01:29:55
really interesting Melissa thank you for coming on today I really appreciate it was fascinating discussion and hopefully
01:30:02
we will be talking very soon when this case is solved or going to trial I sure hope so thanks for having me
01:30:20
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01:31:04
discussion with Melissa Lee to lesen be who is the Carol County Sheriff told the
01:31:11
Carrol County Comet that they have DNA and a partial fingerprint of the suspect that they are seeking in the double
01:31:20
homicides of the dev murders if anyone has information you can reach the tip line at
01:31:27
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