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00:01:43
welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me
00:01:49
as always is a man who claims to have been Spit On by Keith Hernandez here is the captain yeah nice game pretty boy
00:01:57
it's good to be seen it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a
00:02:02
[Music] friend today we are still sipping on birthday Bomb by The Genius beer brewers
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over at Prairie Artisan ALS this is a fantastic beer with a birthday party going down right on the label it's a
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celebration it's a festival it's a delicious Imperial Stout double coffee Imperial Stout if you're nasty ABV a
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bombing 133% so drink this one at home in your garage sound the trumpets please as birthday bomb is most definitely a
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five out of five bottle caps kind of beer and let's give some praise to our good friends right here first up we have
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a shout to Kim and Chris in Florida a big cheers to Nicholas l in Parts Unknown and here's a double cheers to
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Miss Natalie bones in Seattle Washington so thanks to everyone for tuning into Today's Show and thank you to everyone
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who contributed to this week's beer fund yeah BW R you in beer run for all of our
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old episodes check them out wherever you listen to your podcast and make sure you
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check out our bonus podcast called off the record on Stitcher premium exclusive ly on Stitcher premium check that out
00:03:32
and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:03:55
crime on July 22nd 1993 and an employee at the University of California is injured after opening a package that
00:04:04
exploded in his kitchen the package was mailed to his home this is world-renowned geneticist Dr Charles
00:04:12
Epstein he was severely injured in the attack just two days later Captain a prominent computer scientist from Yale
00:04:19
University receives a bomb in the mail and lost several fingers when he opened up the package in December of 1994
00:04:30
a package was received at the home of Thomas Moser in North Caldwell New Jersey Thomas Moser was an executive at
00:04:37
the public relations firm Bon marstellar Thomas opens the package and is killed immediately now this is Bomb number 15
00:04:47
if you are keeping score at home MH on April 24th 1995 a mailbomb was sent to William
00:04:57
Dennison at his office however Dennis who the package is addressed to is actually the former
00:05:06
president of the California Forestry Association located in Sacramento so the new president is the one who actually
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receives this package this is Gilbert Murray he opens the package and he is killed
00:05:22
immediately so now what we have here Captain is two bombs in a row that are both deadly our attacker seems to have
00:05:30
perfected his craft which has to be scary for the FBI because what we know in his previous attacks is not just
00:05:37
sending bombs to individuals but the bombs that he put on the flight flight 444 and if that bomb would have went off
00:05:46
we're talking about casualties almost up to a 100 people and so if he's able to then go hey well this is working instead
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of going after single individuals again I'll go after the airlines again and if they don't stop it I mean you're you're
00:06:02
talking about a massive Devastation Captain I want to get into some Communications that have been going
00:06:09
on through the course of this investigation and these attacks now there was a letter that was sent to the
00:06:15
San Francisco Examiner in 1985 and I actually have in my notes here that a letter at some point was
00:06:22
received by the San Francisco Chronicle as well I don't have that date in front of me but one thing interesting
00:06:29
to our listeners they will remember the San Francisco Chronicle from the Zodiac case that's where he sent most of his
00:06:39
Communications now in this letter back from 1985 the author is explaining what FC stands for so I'll
00:06:51
just read the first couple sentences of this letter and what it says here is that this was a
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handwritten letter and it says to the San Francisco Examiner the bomb that crippled the right arm of a graduate
00:07:06
student in electrical engineering and damaged a computer lab at U of cow Berkeley last May was planted by a
00:07:14
terrorist group called Freedom club we are also responsible for some earlier bombing attempts and it goes on to list
00:07:24
some of those attempts and it also goes on to State how some of the s were constructed to try to prove that we are
00:07:33
in fact who we say we are yeah and then also they reminded everybody that the first rule of Freedom Club is to not
00:07:42
talk about Freedom Club as well as the second rule of Freedom Club as well now there was some communication with the
00:07:49
New York Times from this same terrorist group that's identifying themselves as terrorist group FC in their
00:07:58
Communications with a Warren Hodge of the New York Times this letter was in 1995 again
00:08:07
explaining just like we said with the previous letter what the group stands for what
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they're responsible for and descriptions of bombs proving we are who we say we are what's interesting about this
00:08:23
scenario with both of these situations with the the letter to the San Francisco newspaper and then the New York Times
00:08:31
one thing that the FBI was doing in their investigations was they were able to really pinpoint and determine where
00:08:40
the mail bombs that were actually sent through the mail were shipped from where where someone dropped them into the mail
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they found that the majority of the communications as well as the majority of the bombs that were mailed were
00:08:53
mailed in the San Francisco area so what they believe in their investigation is that they are looking for someone who
00:09:02
lives in or around the greater San Francisco area now we have another scenario and
00:09:10
this comes from the 1995 letter to the New York Times what they see on the letter is indications
00:09:19
like someone had wrote something on another piece of paper on top of this letter or this envelope that was sent to
00:09:25
the New York Times through some analysis there able to determine what what was written and
00:09:32
it was written call Nathan R Wednesday 700 p.m. now the FBI is desperately looking for a Nathan R because they
00:09:43
believe that this evidence suggest to them that the unibomber made a mistake he accidentally wrote over top of his
00:09:53
letter and now they need to find a Nathan R because a Nathan R May may have received a call on a Wednesday at 7:00
00:10:01
p.m. at some point from the unibomber who made a note to themselves call Nathan R Wednesday 7 p.m. they are
00:10:10
making a national hunt for everyone named Nathan r with the last initial last name initial of R yeah or possibly
00:10:19
Nathan R is connected to this Freedom Club their second objective once they track down every Nathan R and ask them
00:10:27
the simple question of do you know who the unibomber is or do you who called you on a Wednesday at 7 p.m. so so on
00:10:34
and so forth yeah or sometimes they ask him to straight up are you a piece of [ __ ] they thought you know what if it's
00:10:41
not Nathan last name that starts with r once we've cleared all them let's start looking for Nathan middle initial R
00:10:50
right the problem with this is there's a lot of Nathan RS out there first of all
00:10:56
and second of all not all these guys want to talk talk to you you know you're a law enforcement agency and you're
00:11:01
saying hey we need to ask you a couple questions you're going what are you doing contacting me I don't know what it
00:11:07
is that you're talking about get the hell out of here especially if you're nowhere near the San Francisco area I
00:11:13
wonder if there was any communication within the FBI to go well we have now communication from this
00:11:22
FC possibly an individual or a group all the communication is coming from San Francisco
00:11:29
our communication with the Zodiac was coming from San San Francisco there's now communication between this unibomber
00:11:37
or FC towards newspapers just like the zodiac is it I wonder if there was conversation
00:11:47
within the agency to go is this somehow connected to the Zodiac my guess would be that when you have this many agents
00:11:56
working on a case and in a case that's uh has a span of this many years that you probably have all kinds of
00:12:04
speculation and theories especially early on in the case when you have really no evidence at all of anything
00:12:12
going on other than this FC calling card that's being left with each bomb so remember the communication with Warren
00:12:20
Hodge of the New York Times what we then have are several threatening letters that are sent to persons that would lay
00:12:29
be receiving bombs or at least the threat of possibly receiving a bomb and I'll read one but there were multiple of
00:12:36
these and this one says Dear Dr Roberts it would be be it would be beneficial to
00:12:41
your health to stop your research in genetics this is a warning from FC Warren hodj of the New York Times can
00:12:49
confirm that this note does come from FC which is bizarre because this is a complete different approach to some of
00:12:57
the attacks later that we're seeing in the 9s compared to what we saw in the late 70s and 80s
00:13:04
where there is in fact a communication in advance and a threat that is sent out saying stop what you're doing here's our
00:13:12
threat we are FC and oh yeah this guy Warren hodj he can confirm that we are who we say we are because we've already
00:13:21
communicated with him at the New York Times and what we'll learn later is by the 90s the mid90s that the FBI is going
00:13:30
to have a list of about 2,000 suspects yes um in April 24 1995 that was the last deadly bomb that
00:13:40
was received again it was at the California Forestry Association exactly two months later on
00:13:48
June 24th 1995 copies of a three copies of a 35,000 word essay titled industrial
00:13:57
society and its future future by FC were sent to the New York Times The Washington Post and Penthouse Magazine
00:14:05
again very similar because it's sending to three different Publications and then also very similar
00:14:13
like what the Zodiac did to say hey publish these ciphers publish this Manifesto right and what you have here
00:14:21
Captain is basically it's this very lengthy Manifesto of what the author deems to be the
00:14:32
industrial society and the damages that it's doing to our society and to our freedoms and so on and so forth but also
00:14:40
saying you know we are FC we are the freedom club we are this terrorist organization who has been terrorizing
00:14:48
America for well over a decade now now if you publish our essay and I think there was even the words in there
00:14:58
publish or perish meaning if you don't publish this we're going to ramp up our attacks and oh yeah we've been deadly as
00:15:06
of late we've killed the last two people that we've attempted to kill now we can
00:15:12
ramp up these attacks if you don't submit to our demands which is publishing this
00:15:17
essay or if you do publish it well we will desist from terrorism if this demand is
00:15:26
met there was of course a lot of controversy over the idea do we give into this terrorist demand of printing
00:15:35
their essay in the papers I believe it was titled industrial society and its future what you end up having happen
00:15:44
here is this great debate that is going on behind the scenes do we publish or do
00:15:50
we not publish yeah and really what we want to have happen here the FBI is going to have the final say so they're
00:15:58
going to tell these Publications if they can publish or not however these things
00:16:04
were sent to three different periodical so we have the New York Times And The Washington Post that really says that
00:16:15
you know we are going to go off of the FBI's recommendation well and look we we have
00:16:21
a debate going on with inside the agency because like we were talking about earlier last week um off the Record if
00:16:31
you will that they did these uh strategies with the Zodiac and never caught him so the people that are saying
00:16:39
hey we need to publish this because this is going to bring other people out to to
00:16:46
possibly be able to identify this group or this individual and there's other people coming back and going hey it
00:16:52
didn't work with zodiac so how are you so certain that it's going to work with this uni bombers manifest it didn't work
00:16:59
with zodiac but the interesting thing is that the majority of the time when these
00:17:04
especially when it's a Serial offender that when they start communicating the communication is what
00:17:13
often leads to their capture and so you have this you have this conf confusion going on of oh we
00:17:21
don't give into terrorist demands but oh this also might be this might be our Spearhead for our
00:17:29
investigation to finally catching this guy mhm so the Penthouse Magazine look they're they're looking to become
00:17:38
newsworthy I guess right they're saying okay times they're going to defer to the
00:17:45
FBI the post is going to defer to the FBI we're going to publish it here at Penthouse Magazine yeah they said no
00:17:51
more with the tatas the ties and the tatas we're gonna we're going to go right after the industrial society well
00:18:01
they they were going to continue doing exactly what they were doing but they they knew this thing's going to sell a
00:18:05
lot of paper sell a lot of magazines and so of course they wanted to post it and
00:18:12
this is public information this is being released to the the ongoing talks of whether to publish or not are upfront
00:18:20
and center and the public is aware of what's going on it's just sad that but their editor wanted to call it the
00:18:26
Unabomber Manifesto well the the thing here is though now we have an issue of the author of the
00:18:37
industrial society and its future they're going well this was kind of a good game plan by the author in my
00:18:45
opinion because you have two quote unquote respectable two respectable Publications and one that's not
00:18:54
respectable and he or the author who whomever it was or this group or what have you they want this Manifesto to be
00:19:04
printed in an upstanding publication the New York Times The Washington Post or both but it's kind of cool that they
00:19:12
leverage this against those two by sending it to someone who was probably just willing to print it to sell papers
00:19:20
sell magazines and so when you see that this debate is going on in front of the American public now you have the
00:19:29
you have the author or authors come forward and say okay look we agreed that we would stop our terrorism we would
00:19:38
stop the bombings if this was printed however if it's not printed in the two newspapers or one of the two newspapers
00:19:46
and it's only printed in Penthouse Magazine because it's not an upstanding publication well we reserve the right to
00:19:54
send one more deadly bomb one more deadly attack and then it can be posted in the Penthouse magazine and we will
00:20:03
stop our terrorism then our acts of terrorism then what they realized with the three different Publications was we
00:20:11
should we should print this in the Washington Post because it's going to be easier for us to monitor um it had it
00:20:18
had a less of a footprint as far as where the Washington Post was received by readers right when you say they you
00:20:27
mean the FBI the FBI has to put some Strate some strategy into this idea of do we post or not well cuz they know
00:20:35
that once they post that that this individual is going to want to read this and so they figured well maybe we could
00:20:42
catch him that way by wanting to read his work in the paper right so what you have is a double-pronged attack the
00:20:51
authors the this group FC Freedom Club they picked these three Publications well the New York Times is well
00:21:00
distributed everywhere across the entire country The Washington Post it's distributed across the entire country
00:21:08
but there's fewer Outlets to purchase and pick up the actual paper Penthouse Magazine I would assume is distributed
00:21:16
across the country but again fewer Outlets to pick up the magazine and you're exactly right Captain they
00:21:22
determined that in San Francisco in the greater San Francisco area where we think this guy is
00:21:29
uh living there was only I believe one place that you could purchase the Washington Post in that greater San
00:21:38
Francisco area so they're like cool on the day we will agree to print this Manifesto but we're it's like the
00:21:49
deli press release the deli press conference that we saw a couple years back where they made the announcement in
00:21:57
advance this is when we are doing this trying to draw the killer trying to draw the attention from the killer to that
00:22:05
location on that specific day so now we're going to announce yes we will print it it will be printed in the
00:22:14
Washington Post only and it will be printed on September 19th 1995 so author FC you now know when you
00:22:25
should be ready to go purchase and pick up your new newpaper they're going to monitor that
00:22:31
location in San Francisco with the idea of photographing and questioning every individual that buys a copy at that news
00:22:40
stand or what have you on September 19th 1995 it's a two-pronged approach to their investigation to draw out the
00:22:48
killer one either he does show up in the San Francisco area and purchase a Washington Post newspaper on said day
00:22:57
and they lure him out that way or B they print the manifesto somebody that knows
00:23:05
FC can identify them by their words and by their writing can contact the FBI and say I think I know who
00:23:14
you're looking for right and I also think there's some identifiers in there that the FBI saw right and you would
00:23:21
have that in really any type of writing especially something that's 35,000 words
00:23:27
yeah I mean there's a lot to sift through there there's a lot to consider but not just the identifiers that you're
00:23:35
pointing out here but it's also the ideals yes I mean this is that's what this manuscript is it's it's a a list of
00:23:44
ideal of how this person believes that the future is going to be affected by the Industrial Revolution and and and
00:23:52
everything going on with technology and nature versus technology and so on and so forth that someone will probably at
00:24:01
some point recognize the mission of FC or Freedom club and understand that because again we go back to yesterday's
00:24:09
trailer when we talk about the psychological makeup of this individual you're really patting yourself on the
00:24:17
back about that that uh trailer aren't you well if he's anything like the mad bomber what Dr brussle determined was
00:24:26
that this would be a grudge told her that this person would have certain delusions and would have certain ideas
00:24:33
that they might be able to act normal and set those aside until it comes up somewhere in conversation or until they
00:24:41
bring it up somewhere in conversation and this their ideas would be discussed with others well also with this
00:24:48
Manifesto I mean right away to me it's like this person has a higher level of intelligence um he's speaking of
00:24:58
ideas uh one of the great Elanor Roosevelt quotes is great minds discuss ideas average Minds discuss events and
00:25:07
small minds discuss people and he's not essentially doing that in this Manifesto
00:25:12
he is presenting these ideas uh and these problems that he sees facing the whole of society but not blaming
00:25:21
individuals I'm I respect your opinion but I'm going to have to disagree he's not talking about individuals
00:25:29
specifically but he kind of lumps people together and categorizes people as certain things and references them in
00:25:38
that manner and he does reference events as well to kind of back up his claims or
00:25:43
his beliefs yeah but I also think some of one you can see his intelligence two there's a lot of futuristic predictions
00:25:53
I think now a lot of stuff that is being talked about now and so that's why I think people were going to wait maybe
00:25:59
this guy wasn't a complete madman uh even comparing this Manifesto to you know 1984 George Orwell's
00:26:09
1984 maybe he lumped people into very standard groups but he's not going after one individual or multiple individuals
00:26:19
and saying all this is their fault that's correct um anybody I I don't know if you've read it or not
00:26:26
Captain but uh again I I have a bit of a different take probably on this than some people that I've seen give their
00:26:33
opinions on well there's there's also two versions because he updated it so there I think there's one that's like
00:26:39
126 pages and then one that's Le less than that yeah so I'm just going off of the one that was printed in the paper on
00:26:49
September 19th 1995 when he's making the threats um yeah it's um yeah it's you can obviously tell that it
00:27:01
was written by an intelligent individual or a group of individuals and it's but at the end of the day to me it looks
00:27:09
like the ramblings of an Angry Young Man um I I didn't find anything particularly
00:27:15
brilliant about the the thoughts of the future of society or lack of freedoms that us as individuals may have in that
00:27:26
Society it I mean it's nothing there's no predictions or thoughts in there that would be any more brilliant than George
00:27:35
Lucas's Star Wars or stuff that we've seen in sci-fi uh books comic books and TV
00:27:43
throughout the decades right but I think I I think that's lessen lessening these
00:27:48
ideas I mean maybe he just came out with these ideas in 1995 but he's talking about the way he thinks Society is going
00:27:58
to work with artificial intelligence and that stuff that's we're just now talking
00:28:04
about in the public uh atmosphere like in The Last 5 Years and so yeah I mean I but I think the work of uh George Lucas
00:28:16
and and the creators of like Star Trek and the things that they were able to think of how they thought the future
00:28:22
would go those were genius ideas and so if you compare them to that I think you'd have to say some
00:28:31
of these thoughts are genius level ideas agreed agreed as said I believe it's obvious that the uh there's some
00:28:39
intelligence there from the author I just don't find it to be anything super unique he's not the only one thinking of
00:28:47
some of these ideas now what this does do though is it does have the desired effect because we start getting a lot
00:28:57
lot of people coming forward saying oh I know somebody that talks like this I know somebody that that has said similar
00:29:04
ideas I know someone that writes like this so on and so forth what we end up having Captain is a
00:29:12
husband and wife will eventually come forward and this will be David kazinski and Linda Patrick and the way that this
00:29:20
goes down is Linda Patrick decides she is going to read this Manifesto knows that it's going to be published decides
00:29:27
that she is going to read it she reads it and she informs her husband David she says this sounds to me a lot like your
00:29:36
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[Music] changer [Music] all right we're back cheers mates cheers to you Colonel and cheers to everybody
00:32:06
for the the nice uh birthday wishes yesterday I appreciate it and cheers to the people in the back all right we
00:32:13
brought up David kazinski and his wife Linda Patrick the way this comes about here is Linda Patrick tells David I
00:32:21
think that this author of this Manifesto could be your brother it sounds a lot like how your brother
00:32:28
writes this is really interesting because Linda Patrick had never technically met David's brother Ted
00:32:36
right he just would write them quite often he would write them some nasty letters and a lot of the letters are
00:32:43
about David now being married to Linda and how much Ted does not like Linda and how much Linda has changed his brother
00:32:51
David andbody never met her for the worse that's right that's hilarious yeah well he's the ultimate Grudge
00:32:59
holder um and so Linda it does take some convincing to her husband David that the
00:33:08
writings are similar and in fact David ends up finding an essay that Ted had written years before that actually is
00:33:17
listing out a lot of these same ideas that are presented in the what is dubb by the FBI the unibomber
00:33:24
manifesto eventually David is convinced that his brother should be looked at he's concerned because you have things
00:33:33
like Ruby Ridge that went down where the FBI surrounded a home and they had guns
00:33:38
inside a gun a gunfight breaks out and we now have people dead as a result of Ruby Ridge he was worried the same thing
00:33:47
could happen with his brother his brother's living out in the middle of nowhere in Lincoln Montana in a tiny
00:33:54
little cabin and he's got guns in his little cabin got really annoying after like the fifth or sixth person as I'm
00:34:02
researching this case said little Log Cabin this is not a log cabin this looks more like a
00:34:09
shed yeah and there's no running water and there's no I believe there was no electricity as well no he's [ __ ] in
00:34:16
the floor inside this cabin well to put it as bluntly as possible gave me some warning I'm trying to
00:34:24
finish my sandwich he could have bothered to build and out house at some point maybe he did and decided to to
00:34:30
move it inward I don't know but anyway it was too cold it was too his [ __ ] was
00:34:36
freezing so he had [ __ ] inide but see David is he's at like a Crossroads man because he's got to
00:34:44
decide do I suggest that my brother could be he's not 100% convinced right that Ted is in fact the unibomber the
00:34:53
Most Wanted serial killer in the country at the time he's not 100% convinced does he make this suggestion
00:35:02
to the FBI or look if if he's wrong and Ted is innocent and some type of gunfight
00:35:11
breaks out Ted could end up losing his life or if Linda is right his brother Ted could send out
00:35:20
another bomb and kill somebody even though he said hey I'll stop if you this you can never take a a threat at its
00:35:30
word especially from terrorists yeah I think what's interesting here is that they can they contact a lawyer and they
00:35:37
end up contacting a linguist to basically go over what they think they are seen and both the lawyer and the
00:35:47
linguist confirm it and say no look we think this is the same individual and we need to go to FBI with this eventually
00:35:55
and it doesn't happen over night captain again a lot of debate a lot of things going on behind the scenes here but
00:36:01
eventually the FBI does become convinced that Ted kazinski is in fact the guy the
00:36:08
problem that they have with Ted kazinski being Prime Suspect being the perpetrator is that it actually goes
00:36:16
against a lot of the stuff that they collected against the unibomber he doesn't live anywhere near San Francisco
00:36:24
right the guy doesn't even own a vehicle he's [ __ ] in his house the other thing too is he doesn't fit the profile
00:36:32
he's a little older than the profiles would suggest I do want to throw this out there there were dozens of profiles
00:36:38
put together about the unibomber including John Douglas that were not at the end of the day didn't turn
00:36:46
out to be great profiles but also the physical description that was given by the witness that saw the man placing the
00:36:53
package in the the parking lot right had the age wrong had the hair color wrong so
00:37:01
there's a lot of reasons to look at this guy and go I see what you're saying that
00:37:05
the language is similar but are we going to go and get this guy simply based off
00:37:10
of language and no physical evidence at all zero physical evidence so much so that it looks difficult that this guy
00:37:17
could be our guy yeah but what they do now because because they have a name as they can then go well what is Ted
00:37:25
kazinsky past and where how did he get to this point where he was living in this cabin
00:37:32
isolated all alone and they're going to start to see reasons that will tie someone like Ted to a lot of these
00:37:41
attacks first off he has a history his childhood he lived in the he lived in the Illinois in the state of Illinois
00:37:50
right more specifically around Chicago we know that one at least one or two of the attacks were Chicago based
00:37:59
attacks at the age of 16 Ted enters Harvard University he graduates from Harvard in
00:38:08
1962 he is accepted to the University of Michigan for a graduate program to study
00:38:14
mathematics well I mean let's not glaze over the fact that he was in a three-year long experimental
00:38:21
psychological experimental um study at Harvard when he was 16 right not trying to glaze over that just
00:38:30
pointing out what they will look at with his past that's known to them by knowing
00:38:35
his name and how it connects to some of these attacks so we do know that University of Michigan was one of the
00:38:43
targets what they're learning here is look this guy is this guy is smart at one point test a IQ of like 167 or
00:38:52
something like that so he's capable of making these bombs and then he goes like you said to Michigan and then also then
00:38:58
goes to uh Berkeley California so now we have connection to Berkeley California as well yes in
00:39:07
um 1967 is when he moves from the University of Michigan out to University of California Berkeley there he will be
00:39:16
a teacher he's going to teach math at Berkeley and then in 1969 he resigns from the math department at Berkeley
00:39:25
yeah he he moves back home with his parents for about 2 years but during that time period him his brother and I I
00:39:32
believe his uh father as well um they all help him build this Shack in Montana yeah it was 1971 when he purchased 1.4
00:39:42
acres in South Lincoln Montana and he and his brother start to build this cabin but at the same time captain in
00:39:53
1971 Ted completes an untit essay on the evils of Technology this will be again similar to
00:40:02
that of the industrial society in its future once the FBI is convinced that this could be their guy that this should
00:40:11
be their number one suspect you got to look at him and clear him before you can move on they decide to start
00:40:18
surveillance on Ted and his cabin in Lincoln Montana shortly afterwards Captain Theodore John kazinski was
00:40:27
arrested by the FBI in April of 1996 he's arrested at his cabin in Montana and of course he is accused of killing
00:40:38
three people and injuring over 20 people in 16 separate bombings between the years of 1978 and
00:40:48
1995 I mean yeah this is some of the biggest news uh the capturing of the unit bomber in 1996 some of the biggest
00:40:56
news of 1996 you also have Princess Diana and Charles getting a divorce you have mad cow disease in the UK and then
00:41:05
obviously you have Jan Ramsay's killing later on in that year and as you pointed
00:41:11
out earlier Captain one of the issues they had with Ted was they had 2,000 they being the FBI had 2,000 suspects in
00:41:21
this case and Ted kazinski was not listed in that top 2000 have applaud his brother and his sister-in-law for coming
00:41:29
forward and saying hey um because yeah maybe your brother's writing you some strange letters here and there but he's
00:41:36
not hurting anybody and Ted had no History of Violence that his family knew of and and actually the opposite one of
00:41:45
the things you know Ted had severe hives when he was a kid and he was isolated in
00:41:52
in the hospital when he was younger before his little brother was even born BN but one of the things that his mother
00:41:58
said was he always had a the way he treated animals especially animals that were in caged he had a real empathy for
00:42:07
them which you normally don't see I mean you hear a lot of times with like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey dmer and things like
00:42:14
that cruelty to animals at a young age and he had the opposite of that well he may not have had these deadly desires
00:42:23
until later on in his life and probably I think he probably had some of this before that experimental stuff that
00:42:33
was going on at Harvard but I think that really pushed it further along it certainly didn't help the young man I'm
00:42:40
going to argue with you because there there's no sign of that and he was Avid with journaling and I don't think
00:42:47
there's any record of him having any homicidal thoughts until he got to Michigan which would have been years
00:42:55
after the experiment and he and he says three-year-long experiment which was done by Henry Murray at Harvard that it
00:43:06
was the worst experience of his life but he doesn't think that the experiment changed the outcome of Ted kazinsky life
00:43:14
or not right I don't think that it did I think he's absolutely right in saying that I'm saying I don't think it helped
00:43:20
if no it defin if he was having any kind of issues or problems before that this certainly would not have helped this
00:43:26
young man and many people have pointed out that look there were other people that were subjected to the same
00:43:32
experiment and they didn't go on to blow people up they didn't go on to be years
00:43:37
old that and that's what I'm pointing out that's different set of circumstances here he he's younger on on
00:43:43
all on every level imaginable emotional intellectually and developmentally you know and so on I
00:43:52
mean look I mean he just to go over his history a little bit you know he scores high on this IQ test
00:43:59
they skip him one grade couple uh grades go by then they end up skipping him another grade uh he did some summer
00:44:06
classes so then that's how he got to Harvard at the age of 16 but you're your family lives in Chicago and they're
00:44:14
sending you across halfway across the United States to go live by yourself and he just wasn't ready but again there is
00:44:23
no record of any homicidal thought or even I believe Suicidal Thoughts until after the experiment to me that is proof
00:44:32
I mean one of the things that you hear constantly when you're looking up Ted kazinski is that uh you know Harvard
00:44:40
isn't responsible for any of these actions and none of these deaths should be at a plac at Harvard's door and I I
00:44:47
argue completely against that I mean a year after these experiments he is in Michigan talking to to therapist about
00:44:57
homicidal thoughts I think it's direct correlation and again if if you had any evidence of it beforehand then I would
00:45:06
say maybe it didn't change the outcome of this kid's life but I I think the this experiment was um you know and
00:45:14
again it's also stated like as fact that this experiment was like MK Ultra and that's not true we we don't know for
00:45:23
certain what this everything that took place with inside this experiment so Ted himself is saying that it didn't affect
00:45:31
him or he doesn't think it affected him I think it did affect him and also what he's getting wise too is how much
00:45:41
information they have against him but how all that information is connected to the cabin so now his thought is if I can
00:45:51
get you know the information from the cabin thrown out then I could walk out of here Scott free yeah he doesn't
00:45:58
really get them to he doesn't trick them into presenting the evidence to him they
00:46:04
make the mistake of presenting the evidence to him because they want to get a confession from Ted kazinski because
00:46:12
they do not have that great of a case against this guy so they're really hoping to get him to sign on the dotted
00:46:19
line and confess to all of these attacks and the murders and you're right though he mean
00:46:26
they don't have a good case against them cuz they have thousands of pieces of evidence against them then why are they
00:46:32
going after a confession I understand that they they had lots of evidence against the guy
00:46:38
they wanted a confession from Ted kazinski well because there was no direct evidence to anything like the
00:46:46
actual bombs or anything there was no fingerprints on those bombs and so all they had was these these diagrams and
00:46:52
these these notes but that what I'm saying is they had thousands of pieces of those
00:47:00
correct but he very quickly realizes during the interrogation process that they are presenting their evidence to
00:47:07
him and yes he's going to flip it and use it against them and tell them you know you base your search warrant off of
00:47:15
linguistics that is that's just a word that's just a term that you kind of made up this is not something that has been
00:47:22
used in previous search warrants yes I guess pseudo science right so if you're going to use that if I can get this
00:47:30
search warrant tossed out then that evidence that you collected from my cabin from my shed will be tossed out as
00:47:37
well and then you have nothing yeah and I think also some of this is maybe not so much that he goes free I'm sure he
00:47:47
doesn't want to be caught or be put in prison but I also wonder how much of this uh attitude that he has about
00:47:55
this is trying to protect his belongings and his life work for the last several years yeah well some of that is built
00:48:04
into this because the natural defense here would be an insanity plea or an insanity defense right and the problem
00:48:14
with that is well if he avoids the death penalty and says hey I'm insane and that's my defense that we put together
00:48:23
well then what did any of this stand for for it was supposed to be built around this whole mission this whole agenda of
00:48:31
him in the freedom Club mhm well what does this Mission even mean if the man who put it together and orchestrated
00:48:37
everything is an insane person well normally when we have these ramblings that we see from these killers later
00:48:45
that's what they are they're unintelligible ramblings or or rants or or however you
00:48:52
want to look at it and I I'm I'm not saying that you should read this Manifesto and agree with them but I but
00:49:01
I think what he is what he is saying is is also a little little unique and the reason why is cuz most people say look
00:49:09
technology is happening and you either have to jump on board or you don't and he's making he's making the statement
00:49:17
hey technology will happen but only if we allow it and maybe we need to pick and choose what we allow as as far as
00:49:26
technology goes and so to your point I think Ted kazinski is really worried the easy way
00:49:32
out is go hey I was insane but then this Manifesto that I worked on for years people just dismiss it as the ramblings
00:49:42
of somebody that's insane and they're not even going to take the time to read it yeah I would think that that was his
00:49:48
one of his many concerns my my own personal opinion of his Manifesto of that manuscript is
00:49:56
it sounds like the you said un intellectual ramblings of a of a raving madman this is the intellectual
00:50:06
ramblings of a Madman it's yeah I think that's a good way to put it it's there's
00:50:12
certainly some Brilliance there again you can tell it was written by an intelligent entity maybe I'm a little a
00:50:20
skew in my thoughts and in uh comprehension and perception of the document itself because I know who wrote
00:50:28
it where if you were looking at it blindly not knowing who or what group wrote it maybe you would think of it a
00:50:36
little differently but one thing that I think kind of torqued me off a lot when researching this case was
00:50:46
these morons online praising Ted kazinski for this manuscript and saying how brilliant the man is is and how
00:50:56
brilliant the manuscript is and even to the point of people going you you guys are just ignorant you
00:51:03
can't see it one day you'll realize he was right he was right are you freaking kidding me well no he's not again I
00:51:13
think a lot of those individuals have to start the conversation with forget every
00:51:18
action that he did and then just look at this paper as a whole I think the the paper as a whole degrades most of us as
00:51:27
human beings it's that's what I questioned how many of these people posting their
00:51:35
thoughts and opinions and and approval and Appraisal of this document actually bothered to read
00:51:42
it yeah but it degrades African-American people it spends a good majority of the
00:51:49
document talking about the overs sociable people the the left people it's grouping a whole bunch batch of people
00:51:59
together and then criticizing them and what in the end are we losing Ted we're losing our freedoms what are our
00:52:07
freedoms when you look at it we all are slaves to something at the very core of our Essence and our being we all have to
00:52:15
eat we all have to pay taxes these things that you might perceive us to be slaves of in the future yes I get that
00:52:22
that's a threat but freedom really is of course it's a physical thing but it's also it's also a state of
00:52:32
mind my my version of Freedom might not be the same as Ted kazinsky no I understand that but that
00:52:39
it's a lot easier for us as Americans to sit there and say that we are free um and you look at what's going on
00:52:49
in China with like the Muslims and and then basically an internment camp over there and ask them how free they are and
00:52:58
how free that Society is so but he's attacking my society and he's condemning my Society that's where I have a problem
00:53:07
you know what Ted I want the freedom to open up my mail without my hands being blown off no I understand that but I I I
00:53:14
think what they're I think sometimes when these authors are are saying look these are
00:53:23
threats and these are things that the that Society needs to wake up to and I think there's look there's a lot of
00:53:31
times we were talking the other day I I watched the Jake Paul fight it it was some of the lowest form of entertainment
00:53:41
that I've seen in my whole lifetime it was is almost embarrassing and then you start wondering is this the way Society
00:53:47
is going and 1.5 million views one of the highest pay-per-view buyin for any boxing event
00:53:57
and and so I think he I think he's questioning society as a whole and and why are people spending so much time on
00:54:05
their computer or spending so much time in front of their TVs when there's maybe
00:54:11
more important stuff to be thinking about if that makes any sense no it makes a lot of sense I think what I what
00:54:18
I see here Captain is it looks to me like somebody who did he he did in fact have these ideas he did in fact have
00:54:26
these concerns but he used them as almost a rationalization for what it probably was that he ultimately wanted
00:54:37
to do he wanted to punish the society that didn't accept him he wanted to harm those who did not accept him he could
00:54:46
not well hold on and and here's the problem too is society did not reject him he actually rejected Society correct
00:54:54
correct I would argue on in your defense I would argue the people that are looking at this Manifesto and saying you
00:55:00
have to forget about the mergers well you shouldn't you can't and and that's not that's that's not part of the
00:55:07
equation you know Ted kazinski likes math part of the equation is that in order to get heard you decided to attack
00:55:17
other people's freedoms so in a sense you're a hypocrite on top of that you didn't
00:55:23
write this letter you Ed technology used a typewriter it might be a a small form of a of type of
00:55:32
Technology but it was Tech at the time it was Tech at the time and you bought a little more than an acre and then you
00:55:42
started seeing real estate being developed and and you you came up with this the again to attack innocent people
00:55:50
that did nothing to you I i' I'd feel totally different about Ted kazinski if he attacked Henry Murray that
00:56:00
experimented on him for three years but what happened to the kid that had empathy for the caged animals mhm what
00:56:09
happened to that guy well and he chose terrorism to as a platform for his message to teach the rest of us to
00:56:17
educate the rest of us he was a freaking teacher at a University at a well-respected university two of them he
00:56:24
had a platform yeah he had a platform where he could teach everyone and you know what it makes me think of when when
00:56:31
he was an active teacher and all these other teachers out there and then compare compare that to the crazy man
00:56:39
living in a cabin out in the middle of Montana it's like Martin Luther King Jr and James Earl
00:56:47
Reay you had two guys that had two completely different sets of ideals they chose completely different meth methods
00:56:55
in the way to deliver and express their thoughts and concerns to the public yeah
00:57:01
and um but but here's where here's where I feel bad for Ted kazinski is because I think a lot of
00:57:11
times we start questioning with Ted Bundy with I mean look I mean it's you know it's 420 uh
00:57:21
Coline Adolf Hitler you start questioning the chicken or the egg are these people just born evil or were they
00:57:31
created to be evil and this is one case that I could say I lean towards the idea that Ted was
00:57:38
created to be evil like maybe they didn't know that that was going to be the side effect of the experiment but I
00:57:46
think that was the outcome of the experiment and that that's angers me because one I mean $50 million spent by
00:57:57
the FBI $50 million of our our taxpayer money spent to try to catch this psycho how much money have we spent on
00:58:07
his trials and his appeals and and his incarceration and his communication with the outside
00:58:15
world how much have we spent on this guy and and and he might have been created by experiments at Harvard and one thing
00:58:25
that's really interesting too here Captain is you have the kazinski family his mother and his brother who said yeah
00:58:33
at some point in his you know when he's 16 17 18 years old we started to realize
00:58:40
that there was something wrong with Ted however we didn't fully understand what it was we kind of just chocked it up to
00:58:49
oh he's an oddball he's depressed he's a genius we can't really understand him yeah some people said that Ted was like
00:58:57
a walking computer that that some people didn't even view him as human well he would say things that were very
00:59:04
uncomfortable to the people that were actually somewhat close to him as close as anybody could be to Ted kazinski a
00:59:11
man with very few friends if any at all but you know his brother and his mother said that he would say things that you
00:59:17
could tell were these were suicidal Expressions homicidal type of expressions and ultimately the Nathan R
00:59:29
lead that the FBI was looking for they never identified a Nathan R tied to Ted kazinski or any other real aspect of the
00:59:37
unibomber case itself in fact two there's two beliefs here of where that came from either that Ted kazinski
00:59:46
himself did that on purpose to throw them off or that it was simply something that happened in Transit before the
00:59:56
letter got to the FBI that somebody else wrote a note over top of this letter so
01:00:02
that lead really never led to anything in the end captain at trial there was a lot of weird and difficulties with his
01:00:10
trial itself and I don't want to go too far into it because it's it looked to me
01:00:14
like the court system basically wanted to say you're crazy but not crazy enough um it seemed a little weird on the whole
01:00:24
Insanity idea and of course as we already pointed out Ted originally did not want he was insistent that he was
01:00:31
not insane that what he stood for meant something what what his actions were stood for something yeah and I don't
01:00:40
know how he heavily involved his brother was but I I do know that there was talks
01:00:45
with the FBI and his brother's lawyer about what would happen to Ted so I I I want to I wonder how much he uh helped
01:00:54
steer The Narrative even during the trial well what he what happened was Ted was trying to dismiss his attorneys very
01:01:03
late in the court proceedings and the the uh judge was pretty much like no you're not going to dismiss your
01:01:13
attorneys this late we've been dealing with this forever right and if we throw the them out now you get a chance to
01:01:20
start over your whole defense which could take a year or two dealing with this now you cannot dismiss your
01:01:27
attorneys and so ultimately Ted kazinski ends up pleading uh giving the insanity
01:01:33
plea to avoid the death penalty so he ends up being he ends up receiving several life sentences to be served out
01:01:42
at the adx Florence which is a United States Penitentiary administrative maximum facility this is an American
01:01:51
federal prison in Fremont County near Florence Colorado it is operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons so this is
01:02:00
different than regular prisons here Captain this is uh a division of the United States Department of Justice
01:02:08
operates this prison this prison opened up in 1994 and is classified as a supermax or a control unit prison this
01:02:19
meaning that it provides a higher more controlled level of custody than even a Maximum Security Prison and if you look
01:02:27
at the list of some of the other inmates that are serving their time there as well as Ted kazinski it's some of the
01:02:37
biggest names out there it's a lot of terrorists to be honest with you it's a lot of foreign terrorists and domestic
01:02:43
terrorists that have been housed in there throughout the years as well as people who have committed crimes of
01:02:49
Espionage well but at the end of the day no no matter how smart Ted kazinski is I
01:02:56
mean that's what he is is a American domestic terrorist in one of Ted's Journal passages dated sometime between
01:03:03
the Autumn of 1977 and early 1978 when the bombing campaign was just beginning and Ted kazinski was still an amateur
01:03:12
bomb Builder remember he's trying to become a better bomb maker a more deadly attacker he wrote to himself quote I
01:03:21
emphasize that my motivation is personal Revenge I don't pretend any kind of philosophical or moralistic
01:03:27
justification my ambition is to kill a scientist big businessman government official or the like I would also like
01:03:36
to kill a communist Ted kazinski wrote In 1980 that the bombings made him feel less angry quote since committing these
01:03:44
crimes reported elsewhere in my notes I feel better I am still plenty angry you have to understand the blank remember
01:03:54
these are coming from some coded journals you have to understand the blank is that I am now able to blank to
01:04:02
a degree and when his bombings were not lethal when they were when they did not kill or they did not significantly
01:04:12
injure the individual who opened up the bomb he said that they were not a success that that bomb was a failure he
01:04:19
was hoping that every bomb would blow off hands or kill the person that opened up the package the only way for his work
01:04:27
to be quote successful as Ted kazinski saw it was to kill the person that opened up the package in July of 1999
01:04:38
this is an interview article by David Bowman on salon.com the article is titled profiler and it's an interview
01:04:46
with John Douglas Bowman asked Douglas a followup to a follow-up question Bowman
01:04:52
was asking about Psycho Killer in general and then asking has there ever been this kind of killer that are a do
01:05:01
good killer angels of Justice Dexter types specifically have there been any environmentalist psycho Killers who kill
01:05:10
loggers or strip Miners and Douglas gives his answer Theodore kazinski the unibomber thought he was doing that but
01:05:20
when I started analyzing the case Douglas said for forget his hatred of Technology he don't give a [ __ ] he just
01:05:27
wants to kill he enjoys killing and wants to dominate and control there's the Oklahoma bombing that gets the front
01:05:35
page two or three days later we have a professor killed on the East Coast that's kazinski saying quote I'm the big
01:05:44
guy here who's this Oklahoma City bomber thank you friends for joining us here back in the garage for another gripping
01:06:06
interesting story Colonel do we have any recommended reading this week this week
01:06:11
we are recommending every last tie the story of the unibomber and his family by David kazinski in August 1995 David
01:06:20
kazinsky wife Linda asked him a very difficult question do you think your brother Ted is the unibomber he couldn't
01:06:28
be David thought but as the couple poured over the unibomber 78 page Manifesto David couldn't rule out the
01:06:35
possibility it slowly became clear to them that Ted was likely responsible for mailing the 17 bombs that killed three
01:06:43
people and injured many more wanting to prevent further violence David made the agonizing decision to turn his brother
01:06:51
in to the FBI make sure you check out every last Tie by David kazinski you can find that title and many more on our
01:06:59
recommended page at true Crim garage.com and until next week be good be kind and
01:07:05
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