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For all of our old episodes, download the free Stitcher app. And our other show, True Crime Garage Off the Record,
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is available on Stitcher Premium. And now, the Delphi murders off the record. Well, and that's why I think it's
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important to examine the possibilities and the reasons why this has not been solved. And I think
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one thing that we can get into, Captain, and part of it that that we talked about
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last week, was I kept referencing maybe the investigators have just been unlucky.
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Maybe, you know, because you see this and you're like, we got we got the video. We got the voice. We have
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eyewitness statements. And they worked with FBI. And and and again, they might have DNA. And I'm going to I'm going to
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quit saying might. I'm going to go with they do, okay? I think that probably very quickly into
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this thing, they realized that they had DNA and they thought this thing was going to be over and done very quickly.
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And then it took a while and they realized this dude's not in any of the systems.
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We can't we can't track this guy down that we have nothing to compare it to. And I think that's why you see there was
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a delay in putting uh take taking that still image and then releasing the actual short little video
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there. Mhm. And then there's the delay between that short that that still image and the sketch, the original sketch that
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comes out. Because what? That didn't come out till what? June or July of the year of the crime?
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There were several months that went by. So, here's one thing where I I wonder one thing. Let's get into a bunch of
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things where they've been where investigators may have just been unlucky. One, the no match of DNA. We've
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already talked about that. Two, I think I'm starting to think that the bridge guy's appearance on the pixelated
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video may almost give a false sense of his actual true appearance. And I think that that's working in his
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favor and working against investigators. For one thing, when you first see the video, right? When you saw the still
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image, didn't you think we were looking for like a pudgy guy? Like kind of a kind of a fluffy fat guy?
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Or or at least slightly overweight. But then later when they released the video and you see the individual walking,
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you can see that those pants are the the jeans are a lot baggier than what his actual legs may require.
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When you see that leg move, you almost see that the legs are much thinner than those jeans. Chicken legs. And then you
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have to wonder how many layers of clothing is that's the thing that I wonder why
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if for some reason he did stand out and he must have in some form or fashion because we have witnesses or believed
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witnesses that think that they saw him on one of the trails. I I don't know that it the the detecting
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factor for them would be that oh, I saw a guy with wet jeans. Because we went through that
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conversation last week. You may not have been able to visually see and determine
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that his jeans were wet. Right. They may have just appeared to be a darker shade
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of blue. But it was a warm day for February. To me, the guy looks at least on the, you know,
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the upper half of him looks to be very overdressed for the temperature that day.
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It almost appears that he's wearing a hoodie or or something of significance underneath a jacket. Mhm. And one thing
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going in his favor, too, here again, I believe that there's there's a collar to that jacket. There's a part of that
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jacket that's sticking up at one point, and he's looking down to watch his feet his foot placement on that bridge.
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That's concealing his face a little bit. He may be wearing a hat, or that might just be wearing a hoodie with the hood
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up. That I I feel like we're we're getting a false sense of his true appearance because it is a pixelated video. Now,
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here's here's the thing. You were talking about do we have more video footage? I think that there's more video, and
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this is pure speculation, okay? Pure speculation. Don't Don't Don't put on the blog "Untrue."
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I'm saying it this might not be true. I'm just guessing here. I think that they have more video footage.
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Unfortunately, I don't think that there's so much video to watch. What I mean by that is I think
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that shortly after Libby was filming this guy on the bridge, and he's very quickly making his
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way we're not seeing that clip in real speed. I don't care what anybody says. I We
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cannot believe we're seeing that at real speed. Mhm. I think at some point she had to conceal
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her phone from him. Either hold it in a way that she's not filming, or it's not obvious to him that
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he's being caught on camera, or she stuck it in her pocket. And that might That might be the reason why we're
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hearing the words, and it sounds muffled. Guys down the hill. It may sound muffled
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because it might be in her pocket. Right. And I think that her I think that she that the video
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was running and filming. It just might not have had anything additional to film because it was
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concealed in her pocket. And I think that her phone went dead so quickly. Anybody that's run the camera feature, I
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mean, well, camera feature and or the video feature, Mhm. the video recording feature on their
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phone, realize that kills your phone very quickly. Yeah. And they were saying very quickly her calls were going
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straight to voicemail. They weren't ringing anymore. And I I think that this guy
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very likely did not know that he was filmed, did not know that his voice was was caught on her Right.
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phone. And and he left the phone there because look, I I don't want to give this [ __ ] any
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credit, but he's smart enough that he he he's smart enough that he's got away with this so
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far. Well, let's not say smart cuz that that's one of the things Or lucky enough. Well, I I think I got a
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better word for you. I one of the things that they were kind of talking about and profiling this
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individual is he organized or disorganized? And so, I think there's a lot of evidence that shows that he's organized.
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Uh and then but then not taking the phone, that seems like disorganization. Well, you could take that either way. I
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was thinking about that, too. Not taking the phone, you go, "Oh, that's disorganized. He didn't didn't plan it
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out, didn't put much thought into it." What if he What if he did put thought into it in advance and he said, "I'm not
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taking any of their phones because what if they trace their phones? They could trace, you know, what if they follow the
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pings on their phones to me because I took them with me? What if What if he destroyed her phone
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at the scene, not knowing that it captured any of his image or anything like that cuz the phone's dead by that
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point? Or if he just just left it there or tossed it in the water. Yeah. And And oh, tossed in the water is
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an interesting thing, too, because we talked about the clothing, right? The victims' clothing. Last week, we were
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talking about where they found clothed, where they found in the nude, where they found was the
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clothing in fact ever even found if if they were if it if it wasn't on their person.
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I still don't know the answer to that, but I did find I did find some info that was saying that um
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clothing may have been found in the creek. And this would be the point of Deer Creek that would be nearest where their
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bodies were found. Mhm. So, when it's but again, it's a very vague broad statement of clothing found in creek. We
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we don't know if it belonged to the victims. We don't know if in fact that there was
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clothing found in the creek. But what I can say this is when when they were searching for the girls,
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there were helicopters that were flying overhead, and they were filming some of the search that was going on for the
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girls. They They had not found the bodies yet. You can clearly see three or four
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searchers. And And the reason why you can see them is because they're wearing those those those red
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like suits. Head-to-toe suits. They're wearing these red suits, and they're in the water. And there's
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clearly there's something there with them. They're They're examining something that they found there.
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Again, that could have been the victims' clothing, could have been an item discarded by the killer that belonged to
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him. It could have been Libby's phone. It could have been a weapon. Yeah. I mean, that Yeah, one of
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Something was found in that water. We don't We just don't know what the significance is. One of the rumors I
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kept hearing this week was that they were actually found, um but they were wearing each other's
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clothes. So, whatever they were wearing before, they switched. And again, this is you know,
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just one of those random rumors and then it becomes, well, weren't they both wearing jeans?
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Is it possible that the shirts were just changed? Um who knows? Um But yeah, I mean there's
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again there's We talked about that a bit. And to me, that would almost imply that the killer
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redressed them. Right. Or dressed them. It doesn't have to mean that, but that's where your mind
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goes. uh size-wise, they're different size girls and and but I could see a a situation where, you know, the the
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pants were put back on correctly, but maybe the shirts weren't. So Well, yeah, Abby had that
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that zip-up sweatshirt. Yeah. So it is it's a weird rumor. It's one of those It's one of those things
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that when you first read that or see that, it kind of you're like, "Whoa." "Whoa, what is What is this?" And then
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I really start thinking about it. I'm like, well, we have a very short window of time.
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And there's a chance that a lot of things might have had to take place during that short window of time.
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I don't know that I don't know that we have the time to redress the victim and get that wrong
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afterward. Yeah, I I I I I don't know. And And again, the source that I have gone back to, I I brought this up
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and again, it was something that they just didn't want to comment on. But normally that like I said, there's
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been several times where I've said it, well, you know, ask questions, they don't want to comment on it and that
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normally meant it was it was correct. So, but I guess I shouldn't assume that. Well, and for
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anybody out there wondering where we're coming up with this info because, you know, I'm sure somebody's going, "Well,
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they've not released even the cause of death for either girl. They've They've not
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released very many things true to the crime scene." Right. So, what is this stuff you're even
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talking about? Well, the way that this works, for my understanding, is that some of Keep in mind, there were search
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parties out there looking for these little girls. Some of these rumors are believed to
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have stemmed from people that were actually involved in the search and may have found the girls or may have
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been in There was a team across the creek at the same time that the team on the other side found the girls. So, we have
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this whole thing where we have multiple people that were in that area, may have seen something that's not been released
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to the public, and may have spoke and told somebody else of what they saw, what they witnessed during those
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searches. Well, it's such or again, we have just made up stuff Right, but it's from from people elsewhere that are that
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are claiming to have heard something. Yeah, but it's also such a small town. 3,000, 3,500 people, something like
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that. just like like we've talked a little bit about it, but like the Pike County
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murders, um it happened in an area where I used to work, but you know, a long time ago.
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I'd work 1 day a week in that in that town, and just knowing some people from that town, the rumors that I heard
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uh were not things that you would hear I mean, it would have made a fascinating um probably 10-part episodes on on the
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rumors that I heard. Oh, you you heard like hours of rumors. We're talking detailed
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detailed theories. With people's names and motives and why they did this and why they did that, why
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what still what's still going on today that's in relation to this specific theory and you heard multiple theories
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that some of them would have taken 3 hours to explain. And then then when the news broke that they solved it It was
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none of them. It was none of those theories. It was yeah. And then I will try to make the long story short.
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Basically, there was tons of these rumors based off of this guy that I worked for.
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Um and there was all these weird rumors surrounding him and and I worked for him
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for a long time. So I ended up calling him after I heard all these rumors and ask him what he thought it was. Mhm. Um
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because this guy was very close to the family. Um every member of that family adult wise
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actually worked for him at some point, you know, as like a freelance contractor or whatever.
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And he simply said to me that he thought that the involvement this was all based around the custody of
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of that girl. And when he said that and and this guy is a guy that he likes to exaggerate
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everything. So you would think that he would want to tell these crazy tall tales. He said, "No, I simply think it
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was a a dispute based off of um custody. Mhm. And then once they arrested the family up in what? Alaska? That's pretty
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much what it all, you know, the Pike County murders was all about was that custody issue.
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Um so so it's strange. I heard a million rumors and and they were fascinating and
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they were great tall tales. Um and that's what I'm afraid that is going to start happening here.
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Well, I mean it in a sense it has a little bit where you have all these people that are now considered suspects
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by the public and then never publicly cleared by law enforcement. I'm guessing they've checked these people and
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probably not too interested in a lot of them. Um but you not only did you have that
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with the arrest of certain individuals, you also had that with the search warrants that were being filed
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and executed very quickly after this this case broke. Right. Right. So, the the first one that hit
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the news was a a home a property on Bicycle Bridge Road was searched on February 16th, 3 days
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after they went missing, 2 days after they were found. Mhm. This location is approximately 5
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miles from the Monon High Bridge, a 9-minute drive from the area. This was searched and I
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don't know I don't know what their outcome was. I mean, obviously no arrests were made in
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this in this search. But then you have another search that took place in a town called Peru,
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Indiana. This one took place on February 25th. This is a different a good amount away. This is
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37 miles away, a 56-minute drive from the bridge. The third search took place in Lebanon,
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which I think one of the one of the suspects or one of the suspects' friends that we were talking about last week,
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Garrett Kurtz, yeah, was from Lebanon, which is not uh um so, this says my notes say 54
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miles is the fastest route. And the So, this would be an hour and 6-minute drive from the bridge. I do
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want to point out with the Lebanon search, the the papers were saying that they were uncertain of the the exact date
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that the search warrant was executed, uncertain of the exact address known. Um which makes me wonder if it is in
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fact connected to the Delphi murders or if it was just a search that was executed and people people's, you know,
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minds Right. Right. were were filling in the blanks and and that's what they came
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up with. But, obviously one that was connected was the fourth search and probably the most
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public of all four searches was in Delphi, Ron Ronald Logan's property. But, they didn't execute that sort
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search warrant until March 17th. Now, we all know that Logan eventually gets arrested for illegally operating
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his vehicle. But, I mean, this is a guy if he's not connected, which I don't think that he I don't think he looks
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like Bridge Guy. I don't think his physical description looks like Bridge Guy. I don't think his facial or hair
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looks anything like what I'm seeing on that little bit of little bit of footage on Libby's phone.
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Um so, if this guy is not connected, he's been looked at very thoroughly. He's been arrested on other charges. We
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have to believe that if in fact they are Well, he would have been arrested before
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you would be required to give the the DNA, I guess. I'm assuming now that he's in prison
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that that they have that. We know that his property's been searched. But, one thing I did I didn't get to real well
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with the the footage on Libby's phone, I think that you probably have a lot of audio
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and and I want to get into the audio here in just a second. But, the reason why I think that we we
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only have a very short period of actual video that we can watch and view Mhm. as
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opposed to video of the inside of her shirt pocket or pants pocket is Look, the video that they released is not
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great. Remember I said maybe the Bridge Guy got lucky that his his appearance is true
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appearance is not well depicted in that short camera footage. Right. And and maybe investigators just got
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unlucky with that. And even though Libby did her best to to try to out this guy,
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maybe we're only seeing that short clip because that might be close to what all that they have. You have to believe
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that they would show us one of the better versions of of of him, right? Right, because they
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could pull the audio out. And just show us the image. And here's what I also wondered, too,
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Captain. We're going back to the audio. You might have that that might be a part
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of the the tricky part of not answering these questions for the public. When they go, "Well, you got to have more
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video, right?" Well, we can't confirm that or deny it. They're not lying. They may have more video. It's just
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39 minutes of 40 minutes of video is is unwatchable. Right. It's blacked out. Yeah, and then on top of that so so for
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the audio, then people go, "Well, do you have more audio?" Well, they might, but
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here's my opinion, too. If if you if this guy if Bridge Guy had a gun, if he had a firearm,
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there might be a decent amount of talking at the very early parts of that abduction.
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And the closer they get to the murder part of the abduction, the less talking is going to go on.
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At least from the perpetrator in my mind. He's going to direct them as he goes. And unless they are
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unless they are you know, trying to talk him out of whatever he's going to do, there might not be a ton of audio from
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him. Now, I do find some of the stuff regarding cell phones to be very very interesting in this case. Mhm. So,
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what we were able to determine and find was actual footage of Mike Patty. He's the grandfather of of Libby.
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He's He's talking the night that they are missing. He's being interviewed for the news the night that they are
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missing. Yeah. And he's talking about they have already checked her Snapchat and her
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social media. So, as terrifying as that is to think about, we do know that by that point before
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midnight that night, his family, the Germain family, the German family, I'm sorry,
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had seen the Snapchat photo taken from 2:07 p.m. of Abby on the bridge. Right. They were probably following her on
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Snapchat like they were connected. Yeah. Yeah. And so, during that same interview
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is when he says that her phone had pinged around town a couple of times. He does go on to say,
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let me see here, his exact words, I don't know exactly what time that interview was taking place.
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Cuz I I don't think that it was live. I think it was filmed and then played. But in the interview, he's saying that
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the phone went dead, stopped pinging about 4 or 5 hours ago. Okay. And that broadcast that I'm
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talking about, it came out before midnight that night. So, this is where everybody got all worked up and got all
00:22:28
concerned about the the Mike Patty's words. A couple of things. Some people came out and said, "Oh, the
00:22:35
family had Libby's phone." No, that's not what he says. Listen to his words. He says, "We were checking
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her social media accounts. We were checking things that we could check without having her phone." My
00:22:50
thought is because of her age, they either had her passwords and her login information. Or they followed her,
00:22:57
right? Right. So, they could then just see what she posted, but I think that I think it's more in depth. I think they
00:23:04
probably had her login information or her passwords. But I also think maybe if they didn't know that that the sister
00:23:10
knew. And then then that way they could just check that stuff. You know, cuz cuz
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they How are they going to have How are they going to have her phone the the night that they go missing when
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they haven't even been found yet? Right. Right, but but but that's the thing though. People mishear things.
00:23:31
And rather than double-checking it they just people are stupid. They just roll with it. They just run
00:23:36
with it and they're like, "Oh, he said they have her phone." And then then then they're like, "Well, that's weird. Why
00:23:43
would they You know, then they're starting to think that the family's involved." The family's not involved,
00:23:47
okay? The family didn't kill these girls. Well, the the direct family that we know of, right?
00:23:53
Yeah, but but but again, then There's not a lot of suspicious on the outside members. I'm just saying.
00:23:59
But even even take that a step further, then they're not covering for anybody either.
00:24:06
Right. You know what I mean? There's no there's no realistic reason to believe anybody would cover for anybody if
00:24:12
if you have those ties to the victims. It just doesn't make any sense. No. So, so they didn't have her phone. We know
00:24:21
that. It's just something that people misread, people misunderstood, and then created
00:24:27
that rumor. And then on top of that with it pinging with her phone pinging in more than one location through town,
00:24:34
it wasn't the phone wasn't traveling around that night. It wasn't going anywhere. And as Kelsey
00:24:40
later explains in her YouTube video, the town is so small that in certain areas if you walk from one side of your
00:24:48
property to the other side of your property, your your phone will ping off of two different towers.
00:24:54
Because that's just just the If you look at the cell phone tower information in that area, it makes sense. It totally
00:25:01
makes sense. Right, and I think this is not information that she just knew. I think this is information that that they
00:25:07
probably got from FBI or or some kind of law enforcement. Now, the other thing with that though, too, then some people
00:25:15
go, "Well, the the the German family, they seem to be going into panic mode very quickly.
00:25:22
It was only a very short period of time that you know, we're talking we talked about the timeline the other day. It's
00:25:28
the longest that you can stretch it out is less than 2 hours from drop-off time to
00:25:34
to the time where you're almost in full search mode. You're you're a little over
00:25:39
2 hours, you're now alerting other family members. New family members are showing up to the scene looking for the
00:25:45
little girls, and then by 5:30, so at the very earliest that they got dropped off, 1:30, 1:35, 1:40, somewhere
00:25:53
in that time range, and then reported missing to the police by 5:30 that night. Some people
00:25:59
suggesting that they're sounding the alarm very quickly. But I think the problem with that is
00:26:06
it's a little girl, and I I don't think people are putting enough thought into it. So, you know, when you and I did you
00:26:12
and I did the exercise last week where we were we were playing this scenario out
00:26:18
out loud, talking through it. We're going, "Okay, well, what what would happen in this situation?" Okay, so
00:26:23
Derrick, the father, goes to pick them up. It was arranged that they would be picked up around the
00:26:29
time that Derrick arrived. And then on top of that, he tried calling her at least twice. Nobody
00:26:35
answered the phone. He walks around looking for them on the trails, does not find them, and then
00:26:41
notifies Becky. Becky's the grandmother who gave permission to Libby to go to that area that day provided that she had
00:26:48
someone to drop them off and someone to pick them up, and that those the drop-off and pick up were prearranged.
00:26:55
That was part of the rules. So, as soon as he notifies Becky, it's a very quick call from Becky to Kelsey to
00:27:02
go, "Did it Did you in fact drop the girls off? Are you still with the girls?" Mhm. And then you hear from Kelsey,
00:27:07
"Yes, they were dropped off. I'm at No, I'm at my boyfriend's house. I'm getting
00:27:11
ready to go to work." It's not crazy to believe How much longer after that do they see the
00:27:17
Snapchat photo of of video proof evidence, picture evidence of Abby on the bridge?
00:27:25
And then you're there looking for them and you're going, "Oh my god, they they were here. Nobody seen them. What the
00:27:31
hell's going on?" And mind you, it's February. Well, I think It's going to get dark between 5:30 and
00:27:36
6:00 that night. Mhm. Well, and I also think sometimes they just have gut feeling.
00:27:41
Right. gut feeling is telling you something bad happened or is the picture of bridge guy
00:27:47
also in this Snapchat feed? So, you see some pictures of them at the park. You see them going over the bridge
00:27:55
and then the next picture you see is just of a of a man. That would be alarming for any parent.
00:28:02
Terrifying. For any parental figure. Well, and not only that, even if they didn't see him on any
00:28:09
of the of her social media stuff. Mhm. Which I Which I don't I don't think that they did, but again, we don't we
00:28:16
can't say 100%. Mike Patty arrives on the scene around 5:00. We know that once he gets there,
00:28:21
he goes to the Meers property. And while on the Meers property, he's calling a friend of his who is a police officer.
00:28:29
Mhm. We don't know what that conversation is, but you don't have to have much bigger of a brain than I got
00:28:34
to figure out what they probably talked about. It's probably a friend calling in
00:28:38
asking for advice going, "Look, man, um I'm over here by Moonen Heights Bridge over at the park area. Been looking for
00:28:46
my granddaughter. We can't find her. We only dropped her off about 1:30 to 1:45,
00:28:51
so it's not been that long. What should I do? Should I report her missing? Should I just sit tight? What
00:28:56
do I do? And that's just he probably got some good friend advice who's saying, you
00:29:01
know what? You got nothing to lose by reporting her missing. Right. So hopefully you report her missing and you
00:29:06
find her 15 minutes later and we can call the whole thing off. Yeah. But it was right. It was getting
00:29:11
it was going to get dark though and it was February. And yeah, so I don't think that they
00:29:17
her phone. I mean, we live in an age that we're all connected. And so you can text somebody, they'll text you back
00:29:23
within minutes or you can call their phone. responding to anything and I know I went
00:29:26
on this long rant, Captain, but you said the most important thing out of that whole that whole deal there.
00:29:32
It's a little girl. It's a child. Mhm. It's a child. So It's your baby. I mean, and it doesn't matter. Look, it could be
00:29:39
a 20-year-old that went missing. When it's your baby, it's it's doesn't matter that they're 20 or 30 or 40 years
00:29:46
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at madison-reed.com. regarding cell phones, okay? So, and I'm not talking about Libby or Abby's cell
00:32:39
phone. I'm talking about cell phones of persons who were in the area around the Monon High Bridge that day, within that
00:32:47
short window of time of when they went missing. Maybe maybe even back it up a few hours beforehand, maybe even back it
00:32:53
up an hour and a half or so afterwards. Remember they were interested in the car
00:32:57
that could have been there as long as from noon to 5. Uh so, the the report that I saw about
00:33:05
this, I found it to be incredibly interesting because it kind of can take you down
00:33:10
two different roads here, right? So, the the statement that I saw was that they,
00:33:17
being law they being law enforcement, have reviewed everybody's phones that were pinging in that general area.
00:33:24
They've spoke to all of those individuals. So, that can take you two ways with with
00:33:30
your thinking on who are who is bridge guy. Did he not bring a phone with him? Right. Or or I guess have it turned off.
00:33:41
Yeah. Did did he not bring a phone with him to that area that day? Yeah. Or the interesting other thought about that
00:33:50
is remember the statement from the last press conference on April 22nd where they very clearly say, "We may have
00:33:59
spoken to you already, bridge guy." When they're talking to bridge guy, they say,
00:34:03
"We may have already talked to you." Yeah. And then you go So, that works both ways.
00:34:09
That that statement's probably very true. They've spoke to everybody's cell phone who was pinging in that area that
00:34:14
day. And it's either one of two things. Either this guy didn't bring his phone with him, or they've already interviewed
00:34:21
him. Yeah, so two things. One, if the individual turned their phone off before they got into the area, that is a
00:34:31
well-organized person um would make me feel like it would be difficult for them to get caught. Also,
00:34:39
discipline I would think that even if this is the first attack or the first murders by
00:34:45
this individual that they they're disciplined enough to um wait out for the right opportunity.
00:34:53
But back to what you're saying about the press conference when he says they might be in this a
00:34:59
room I think that's like the scariest line of the whole you know, we might have talked
00:35:05
to you. You might be in this room right now. And that I think that's the that every time I watch that um
00:35:15
press conference it gives you chills and and just like the weird weird actions not I don't want to say weird
00:35:24
but like there's there's a nervousness in his presentation where you kind of wonder if does he see
00:35:30
somebody that's making him that way? So very strange press conference. The yeah, that was you and I talked
00:35:38
about that within hours or even a couple days of that press conference. And one thing you were
00:35:43
pointing out you're like, well, when he said this person might even be in the room, is there somebody in the room that
00:35:49
he is means specifically that he saw somebody in the room that he does not like for any number of reasons whether
00:35:55
they're not being cooperative in the investigation or they're some other form of dirtbag or whatever.
00:36:02
Is is he just upset with that person's presence or do we have a situation where they've really
00:36:09
done their homework on this and said, you know what? We've talked about the strategy of the super cop. We've talked
00:36:15
about the strategy of publicly calling the killer a coward and calling him a loser and all other different kinds of
00:36:22
things you can call him. There's a strategy in that. Is there anything where he's going, "You know
00:36:27
what? I have to play a specific role during this speech, during this press conference."
00:36:33
And could that have been too much for him? Maybe. Could it have put him on edge a
00:36:38
little bit? Maybe. I thought he did a hell of a job. I I don't know exactly what he was
00:36:45
supposed to be portraying there, but I think that that was I think the words of that were not only planned out, I think
00:36:51
where they appeared in order was extremely timed out planned out as well. I think his demeanor was somewhat
00:37:01
uh decided upon in advance. That you know, don't be afraid to lean into the podium, to look aggressive.
00:37:08
Right. Don't be afraid to appear to get angry at certain points during your statement.
00:37:14
Don't don't to be afraid to to throw out a sentence and leave a long pause between to the
00:37:23
next one. Don't be afraid to be theatrical with some of it. I think there was a lot of a
00:37:29
lot going on there. It's I you know, I give I want to give him a a lot of kudos there because it's a lot
00:37:36
for one person to do. Yeah, there were other law enforcement there present that day, obviously. A lot
00:37:43
of them just standing in the background and and this guy had to do it all by himself with the with the whole the
00:37:48
whole presentation there. And I thought he did a fantastic job. Um but I but it also goes back to what
00:37:57
you were talking about earlier. The the motives, the method of operation, the how organized could this killer be?
00:38:05
Personally, I think he's probably extremely organized to the point where I think he planned out where he parked his
00:38:10
vehicle. Mhm. I think that I think he put thought into not only stepping foot onto the crime scene, but also fleeing
00:38:18
the crime scene. And the placement of his vehicle was thought out as such that it has to bode
00:38:24
well for both of those scenarios. Then on top of that, I think the reason for the baggy clothing on top and and
00:38:30
the multiple layers on top is he brought everything with him that day to kill somebody.
00:38:37
He brought everything that he thought he was going to need in that scenario to kill somebody. And
00:38:43
it's all concealed under those layers. And that might be another reason why he may appear to be chubbier
00:38:50
or more heavy-set than what he actually is. And again, we might just be getting a
00:38:55
bad a bad look at this guy. And again, I think they're giving us the best look that they got from her her
00:39:03
footage. Now, there there is one interesting part in there. If you really slow that that
00:39:08
that small clip down, there's a part where it looks like somebody may have blocked something out
00:39:13
from that picture. That may have may for just a split second that we saw something that the public is not
00:39:19
supposed to see. I don't know if it would have been a weapon or or or something else. It would have to be
00:39:24
something significant. It wouldn't be something There's no reason for them to to disguise this individual anyway. So,
00:39:31
they're not trying to to stop us from seeing him from seeing bridge guy. But I I think that they're concealing
00:39:37
something there. That might be the gun as he approached the girls. Mhm. The other thing that I want to address
00:39:46
here real quick is is a couple things. We John Douglas you know, my hero. You're my hero, John Douglas. You're my
00:39:55
hero. I still think we should do the Wayne's World. We're not worthy. We're not worthy. We're scum. I saw a short
00:40:03
interview with him after the 422 press conference. And look, it was one of those interviews. You ever
00:40:11
see like an interview where they you know, John's just standing there. It was supposed to be just a casual real quick
00:40:16
interview. But you ever see one where they they have the interview, they've clearly
00:40:21
brought it back to the news station, they've cut it up the way that they want to cut it up, but instead of just
00:40:26
letting you view the entire interview, the- you're getting the news anchor that just
00:40:31
talks the whole time. And they'll show a very quick little answer of his. I would
00:40:34
have loved to have heard everything he had to say about his thoughts on who bridge guy is and what's going on with
00:40:41
the investigation. But the one thing he did say, which which was fascinating, but it's also not
00:40:47
like it it it's not like the most brilliant thought that nobody else would have thought of.
00:40:52
But when he heard the audio of guys down the hill. Guys down the hill. He was saying that the the casualness of
00:41:03
choosing the word guys, it he said it almost felt to him like it was somebody that was used to talking to
00:41:10
people of that age. Yeah. Addressing a group of people in that age. And he almost felt like it was like like
00:41:17
something he would expect to hear a teacher say. Yeah. guys, like come on. driver. Yeah, guys, cut it out. Right.
00:41:24
Guys, all right, it's time to come inside. You know, something like that. Um I found that interesting one for for
00:41:30
multiple reasons, but but one just the simple fact of who would have been available at that same time.
00:41:36
Bridge guy, that's the thing. In their profile, when they're talking about identifying who the suspect could be,
00:41:43
who bridge guy could be, this is somebody that was unaccounted for for a certain period of time on February 13th,
00:41:48
2017. This is somebody who have may have made up an excuse why they were accounted for
00:41:54
during that time. Here's the other problem, though. This is where law enforcement may have just got unlucky.
00:42:01
This also may be a guy that did not need to be accounted for that day for any number of reasons. Maybe he
00:42:08
doesn't have anybody to answer to. Maybe he has nobody to He lives alone, works for himself, was
00:42:15
unemployed. You know, there's there's a bunch of reasons why he wouldn't have anybody to
00:42:19
answer to. Yeah. And a garage. Yeah. Yeah. With his friend. With his who can't remember what day it is.
00:42:28
Yeah. Uh but no, these are all reasons why law enforcement might just be simply unlucky
00:42:36
at this moment and bridge guy is getting lucky. I hate bridge guy. will run out. His luck will run out. But
00:42:44
the reason why I point this out is there's starting to be As soon as that second sketch came out, there's starting
00:42:50
to be a lot of people that have concern now with the investigation and with the state of the investigation.
00:42:56
seems like uh incompetence. Right. Right. And and I Look, I don't know what to make of the
00:43:03
two sketches. I'm just pointing out that that it's possible that what some people may be
00:43:09
thinking is them being incompetent might just be bad luck at the moment. Might just be bad luck at
00:43:16
the moment. The other thing, too, that I want to point out with being organized or
00:43:22
disorganized, again, I think whatever he thought he was going to need to carry out this crime, he brought with him that
00:43:29
day. He brought with it That was on his person. Now, that tells you several things about the the makeup of this
00:43:36
individual. He may have very likely have gone there with the intention of killing that day.
00:43:44
We don't know what else he did to the victims, but we also can't expect that he went in
00:43:50
there planning that he was going to kill two victims that day. That might not have been part of his
00:43:57
plan. It might just have been like we stated earlier that he was looking for someone
00:44:02
to put themselves in a compromised position at the other side of that bridge. And if he was looking for a female,
00:44:10
he does not have to be a pedophile or a registered sex offender to have committed these murders.
00:44:16
He may have just been looking for a female. May have even gone there hoping to see an adult female jogger by
00:44:24
themselves. Mhm. And attack them, but did not did not find his victim. Did not find whoever
00:44:33
fit his victimology. And he saw these two girls who I think his victim his victimology is
00:44:40
more so of whoever would be compromised, would be alone, and would be give him the better percentage
00:44:47
of getting away with this. Rather than having us a specific victim in mind. Does that make sense or
00:44:54
did I get too weird with it? I think it makes sense. Basically, you're saying that he's going
00:44:59
to go there. He's going to find the opportunity as long as they fit a certain criteria that's good enough.
00:45:05
Yeah, cuz I've had many good conversations with several people over great beers on this case cuz this case is so
00:45:12
captivating right now. It's on everybody's minds. And some of the people have said, well,
00:45:17
it you know, not only do we have the video and the audio, but we know that we're looking for a killer. We know that
00:45:22
we're looking for a pedophile. I don't think that we know that. I don't think we know that last part. I even I
00:45:29
don't even think if we know the first part. I think, you know, to be on these trails
00:45:35
Man, let's go down this road just for a second. To go on those trails, you have you
00:45:41
might you might just be an individual that carries a gun with you. To to go on these trails, to be outdoors
00:45:47
person, you might just carry a knife with you. Is it is it possible um I don't think it's out of the realm of
00:45:57
possibility after 2 years with all the information that we have, we have video footage, we have audio footage, we have
00:46:04
these sketches, we have eyewitnesses. Um we have a lot of things going on there.
00:46:11
Is it possible that that this individual uh this was their first time? Uh and and this has been their only time
00:46:20
so far because uh how how scared they are now that they're going to get caught. Well, certainly possible.
00:46:30
Um Yeah, I don't want to play the possibility game cuz There's Yeah, there's Everything's possible.
00:46:35
into trouble. I I like to look at what we what we think we know, what what we do know first. What we think we know or
00:46:41
what we can surmise by putting other facts together. But I was trying to put out that evidence. I mean, to me, that
00:46:48
me it means something that we're this far along, we have this many people talking about it, and sometimes it feels
00:46:55
as if we have nothing. You know, so like I'm saying it's not out of the realm of
00:47:01
possibility that somebody's on the trail that day with certain items. Um but I but but I don't know. I think this
00:47:11
Personally, I think this guy had a kill kit with him. I think it was concealed underneath
00:47:17
those layers of clothing. And I don't think it's the first time that he threw that kill kit in his
00:47:23
vehicle or put it on his person and went walking around. I I agree with with your statement that
00:47:30
he he very likely may have never killed anybody before and may I I don't think so. afterward. John
00:47:37
Douglas says you don't just wake up one day and go out and kill two kids. So, I think I think what's probably correct is
00:47:43
somewhere between your statement and John Douglas's statement. I'm going to go with my statement.
00:47:48
And Here's the thing. What's his credentials? If if this guy is if bridge guy is was 18 or 19 at the
00:47:56
time, Remember, we have Mhm. We have from 18 to 40 years old. If he was 18 or 19 at the time,
00:48:05
I'm going to go with you, Captain, that it's very likely that he's never committed he's never committed a murder
00:48:10
before. If he's closer to 39 or 40 at the time, I feel like he's either committed a murder before or
00:48:19
has attempted to or or or attacked somebody in some Right. some fashion where maybe maybe he
00:48:27
was out scaring the hell out of people one day or and it doesn't have to take place in Delphi. It could take place
00:48:33
elsewhere. It It's It's just one of those things. It It seems very strange to me that for
00:48:39
what I believe he would have need to have brought with him to the bridge that day,
00:48:45
seems like a lot seems like a quite a bit of stuff to bring with you to the point where I I have to call it a murder
00:48:52
kit. I have to call it that. So, I necessarily don't think he had to bring a lot. I mean, you if he had a
00:49:00
gun, you can control them. Uh but based off their age, maybe you can control them just with a knife.
00:49:05
Maybe you all you have to do is have one individual and then the other one's just going to
00:49:10
do what you say because you have that individual under lock, so you can control both victims
00:49:15
with a a knife. Uh that's a possibility. Riskier, but you know, as far as what we know, we
00:49:23
don't know what the person It's not like they you know, the murders happened where
00:49:28
they happened because cuz they had to happen that place. Um or that you know, or that the guy got
00:49:35
spooked. We don't know any of that information. I mean, it's very likely that that's the case. Uh where
00:49:41
was he heading with these individuals? Maybe it was just across the river. Maybe it wasn't.
00:49:47
Uh you These are These are questions we don't have answers for. Yeah, and I and I don't want to go too
00:49:54
far down the road that we're currently on because look, I we we we know that he abducted
00:50:01
them at some point. We know that they were killed and we know that he fled fled that area.
00:50:08
I don't want to spend too much time on what could have happened, what could have been going on from the time he
00:50:13
abducted them to the time he left. Right. Um I have a lot of thoughts on that and
00:50:20
and and and feelings on that and suspicions, but I don't I don't it's not something that I'm very comfortable in
00:50:27
this area discussing. It it it does us not a whole lot of good cuz it's stuff we don't we just don't know. Right. We
00:50:35
just don't know. But I I I will say this, I believe that this individual, that bridge guy, went
00:50:44
to that area that day prepared to kill. And knowing that he very likely might kill
00:50:56
somebody there that day. I don't think that the girls were targeted in a sense that he met them
00:51:04
there or that he followed them from anywhere or that he knew either of them beforehand.
00:51:11
I think he was there scoping and looking for a victim. Just like a hunter would sit there looking waiting for a prey.
00:51:20
He was there that day prepared to do what he came to do. And if something presented itself
00:51:27
he was going to make a move. So, I I I think he can be considered organized in the sense that that he he seems to be
00:51:37
one prepared to do whatever it was that that he was motivated to do. Uh-huh. He was organized enough that we don't have
00:51:44
a vehicle description. Uh-huh. He you can argue the cell phone thing either way. Maybe he was smart enough to
00:51:51
know "Hey, I don't want to risk bringing these things with me." Right. Uh or is there a chance he thought he heard
00:51:58
something or he got spooked and and and intended to to take the cell phones with
00:52:02
him but got spooked and ran out of there faster than he wanted to. And then he gets back to his car, gets
00:52:09
home, or wherever and and and and half hour later he's going "Oh, I [ __ ] I forgot the cell phones."
00:52:15
So I think you could argue that either way or he was smart enough to get know that
00:52:19
he didn't want that that thing with him. It also appears that he very likely may
00:52:24
not have been carrying his phone with him at the time. Mhm. I don't know. This This is it's it's a it's a very
00:52:33
interesting case in the sense that it's one that you feel like you should have so much information and you really
00:52:41
you really just don't. And when you really put the timeline together and you start looking at a map of this area, I
00:52:48
encourage everybody to do that because if anybody sitting there and they're confused about the case, Mhm. that
00:52:54
should end it right there. The timeline and a and a general map of of the area will provide you with a lot of ways to
00:53:04
it's going to help you kind of see how this thing probably played out and how very quickly everything moved along
00:53:13
that day. It's also 100% horrifying and terrifying to think that look, this wasn't this was
00:53:23
not a dangerous area. This was not like a place that you wouldn't allow your young teenage girls to go to.
00:53:32
This was somebody that and and I think that's why he chose this area. I think he chose it for a couple reasons. One, I
00:53:38
think he thought he would very likely find somebody by themselves. Not only would they be by themselves but
00:53:45
this is an area that it's not like you're not seeing a lot of what's going on. You're not near a whole bunch of houses
00:53:52
where you might hear what's going on. And then on top of that he picks a picks a
00:53:58
time of day when it's likely to have fewer people there than than most. He may or may not have known that there was
00:54:04
going to be school that day or not be school that day. Oh so here we are now captain over 2 years
00:54:12
later you and I there's nothing more that I know about the case that you don't know.
00:54:18
There might be some things you you you were kind of you kind of just let me go this last 20 minutes. I'm wondering if
00:54:23
there's things about the case you know that I don't know. Well, there's a possible another suspect
00:54:30
um that is kind of on the under surface like another guy with a bulbous nose. Um he he's the
00:54:39
I believe he was a firefighter and he I guess at some point was to be connected with the searches for the
00:54:48
girls and he was arrested for I think whipping out his He whipped out his [ __ ] [ __ ] and balls.
00:54:58
indecent exposure Yeah. Um how how recent is this arrest? Um I haven't looked much into it. I've I've
00:55:08
been Is is he a Look it it's he's clearly he's Okay, so he's clearly under the radar as
00:55:15
far as the mass population goes, right? Because all these other people their names have been put out there really put
00:55:21
out there. So he's under the radar as far as mass population goes. But is this I know his name but I'm not I'm not
00:55:27
putting it out. Right. Is this a more recent arrest? Was he is he just very recently an under the radar suspect or
00:55:34
or has he been an under the radar suspect for quite some time. I think he's been under the radar for quite some
00:55:40
time. That this indecent exposure may have may have happened shortly after the Yeah. May have happened as early as
00:55:47
2017? But that's what I find interesting about um uh this individual is one I could see
00:55:56
him um being um um bridge guy. I could see that. Uh also if if it's true about the
00:56:08
the the reddish hair, reddish-brown hair, um matches that description, also has the bulbous nose.
00:56:16
Um so yeah, it um it'd be a possibility. Not too young and not too old of individual,
00:56:27
but I I'll show you his picture when when we're done here. I know it's muffled, but when you hear that voice, do you put
00:56:34
an age or a ballpark age on that voice? No. I feel like to me, I feel like both the the image that I'm seeing
00:56:46
and the voice that I'm hearing sounds to me to be less of a window than 18 to 40.
00:56:55
I feel like I'm talking about somebody more like 29 to 40. 30 to 40. That's just But But I have
00:57:02
nothing to base that off of off of other than my own feeling. Right. But speaking of feelings,
00:57:09
over 2 years later, you and I know almost the exact same stuff about the case. Mhm.
00:57:15
After the last press conference, some people changed their opinions on what's going on with the investigation. Do you
00:57:21
think Do you feel how What is your confidence level on this case getting solved? Or as some have come out
00:57:28
recently and said, "I have no faith now, and I feel like they they may never get this guy.
00:57:37
Well, what I'm hoping is um I I saw this thing where they they should make t-shirts and sell these
00:57:44
uh for Delphi uh to raise money, but that they always say today is the day. And they say that they say that at every
00:57:52
day. Yeah, let today let today be the day. Right. is the day. And and the idea is that
00:57:59
yeah, they've been wrong quite a bit, but one day uh that's going to be right. And
00:58:05
you know, it's uh I think it's you feel bad for them. And we've met them. And we got to talk to
00:58:17
that talk to them and look them in the eye and and it becomes more real. And I can't even imagine what they're going
00:58:27
through. them, do you want to be more specific? family the family members. And so I I hope so.
00:58:36
But I what I hope is that there's enough hope from the family and the community that somehow it just
00:58:46
lets the universe works it you know, work its magic and and this screws up something and out of nowhere. You know,
00:58:53
it's kind of like the Golden State Killer type thing. It's like somehow the universe was like, "Okay, now we can
00:58:59
connect DNA to family members." and boom, this guy that seemed to be someone that would would never catch
00:59:07
we got him. And and I hope that you know, people can I know that seems a little hocus pocus
00:59:14
to some people, but I think if you have the enough people thinking that this is going to get solved that
00:59:19
Well, well, we all hope that that it gets solved. I think the the the real question is do
00:59:25
do either of us feel that it will? What's our confidence level that it will? How soon? Do do you put do you put
00:59:31
a timestamp on that thing? You know, there's really only one person that hopes that it doesn't get solved.
00:59:38
And that's the guy that we're calling bridge guy. Now, I feel I've not lost my confidence
00:59:46
level in this investigation. I've not lost my confidence level even after a different sketch, a very much different
00:59:53
sketch came out. Mhm. What I wouldn't mind seeing Captain, if they could apply it for us,
01:00:00
we have a sketch of what appears to be a younger man, uh that being the second sketch. I would
01:00:06
love to see that second sketch, that same image, that same person that I'm I'm seeing in that second sketch, maybe
01:00:12
with a hood on, a hat on, uh a hoodie on, some some dress that appears to be more like the first sketch,
01:00:20
because what we're seeing on the bridge there is a guy wearing a jacket and possibly a
01:00:26
hat or possibly a hoodie. I would like to see something like that. Um we did take a little little criticism
01:00:33
of not playing the audio of guys down the hill. A few people have suggested we probably should have included that in
01:00:40
the last episode. I N short for Indiana, I N dot gov. If you type that in and look it up, you get you
01:00:49
get the you get the sketch, the most recent sketch, you get the image of bridge guy, you get several different
01:00:57
pieces of audio there, all on the front page. You get the video. And it also includes that website address
01:01:07
for the Abby and Libby tip at cacoshref.com, as well as some phone numbers there. But
01:01:16
keep in mind, the the sheriff have stated that they their preferred method of receiving any tips would be email
01:01:23
form. That way it's easier for them to categorize these things, catalog them, keep track of everything, keep track of
01:01:30
the proper information. That would be the most helpful way. I still feel like Captain, maybe this
01:01:37
thing could be solved. I have a high level confidence in that. I also have a high confidence level that it that might
01:01:43
be very soon. That it that it could be within the next year and a half. I think we just have to be patient with
01:01:53
law enforcement with this and trust them. I think they are handling it very well
01:01:58
and I think that as long as the the public continues to help that this thing will get solved. And it
01:02:06
and when they do finally make that arrest, that news is going to be big. That's going to be big. And it's it's
01:02:14
interesting that you reference the Golden State Killer or EARONS or the original Night Stalker, all the
01:02:21
different names that that horrible monster had because of his reign of terror lasted so long and he had so many
01:02:28
victims. But it was believed in that case that that we had audio. We had we had his voice.
01:02:38
That we may have had his picture. And just the evidence that was involved in that was almost as such that people were
01:02:45
going, how could this not be solved? How could this not be solved? And here we are
01:02:51
sitting here with Libby and Abby's case, same thing. We got the picture, we got the audio, we got a short video.
01:02:59
It It just takes that one person. And I know that sounds I know people are probably tired of hearing that, but
01:03:06
that's that's what it is. That's the state of the case right now. I believe they got the DNA. I believe
01:03:12
they're just waiting on checking it against the right person. And I also believe in this case, too,
01:03:18
Captain. This is something we won't have to get too far into, but we also agreed
01:03:23
off off the record that there's a chance that when this thing when they do make the the arrest
01:03:32
that the public might not be such aware of it right away. That there might be some things that
01:03:38
they need to do, want to do behind the scenes before that information gets presented to us.
01:03:44
Yeah. To be clear about this, our idea was that the it's possible that they have somebody
01:03:50
that they've already arrested for another crime. And maybe they've done some testing or
01:03:56
or eventually will do some testing, but even if there's a match with the DNA, they might not actually make
01:04:02
announcement. They might spend another 4 weeks to maybe even 8 weeks. I mean, it's gone 2 years.
01:04:09
The the key is not making the arrest. Like law enforcement has said, the key is not to make the arrest. The key is to
01:04:15
make the arrest and to get a get a conviction. Right. And if you have somebody that is
01:04:21
on lockup right now with no no real chance of getting out anytime soon. You have time to work on the individual
01:04:32
if there's there's reason to believe, and we won't get into it too far, but there's there's plenty of reason to
01:04:38
believe that even if they do have DNA and have a match there, that they would not mind having a confession on top of
01:04:44
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