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00:01:41
>> Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thank
00:01:46
you for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with [music] me as always is the devil who went down to Georgia. Ladies
00:01:52
and gentlemen, here is the captain. It's good to [music] be seen and good to see
00:01:56
you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. Today we are bubbling over with joy
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featuring Augusta Peach Wheat by the Fun Brewers at Sibling Revalry [music] Brewing Company. This is a wheat ale
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with natural peach flavor. The folks at Sibling Rivalry [music] Brewing say this beer is as complex as a
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men corner. I say I don't want too much fruit in my beer, and this one has just the right amount of peach. Garage grade
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three and 3/4 bottle caps out of five. And let's give some thanks and praise to our good friends that helped us fill up
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the old garage fridge for this week's show. First up, we have a cheers to Jen [music] from Santa Cruz, California.
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>> And a big we like your jib goes out to Karen from Omaha, Nebraska. >> Here's a cheers to Caitlyn from
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Princeton and that's in Texas. >> And a big talk in the air to Andrea from Virginia Beach. Here we go, Captain.
00:02:57
Here's a cheers to Sarah Robertson. She's in Perth, Western Australia. And last, but certainly not least, we're
00:03:04
going to stay in Australia to give [music] a cheers to Ryan from Blackwater Kingsland. Everybody we just mentioned
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went to trimegar.com [music] and helped us out with this week's beer fund for the beer run. And for that, we
00:03:18
thank you. Yeah. BW [music] Beer Run. Want to thank you guys so much for a great 10 years of True Crime Garage.
00:03:27
We'd be nothing without [music] you. And as the true crime world becomes a little
00:03:32
more corporate, [music] a little more cookie cutter, we're going to stay homegrown, home brewed, some might say.
00:03:39
And we want to thank you guys so much for listening and thanks for telling a friend. And that's enough of the
00:03:44
business. Staying independent because nobody else will have us. All right, everybody, gather around, grab a chair,
00:03:51
grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. >> [music] >> A court hearing today on the me report
00:04:18
that reconfirms Greenberg's death has been ruled a suicide. She was found dead in her Manunk apartment with 20 stab
00:04:24
wounds back in 2011. The case was initially ruled a homicide, but a recent Hulu docue series has put the case back
00:04:31
in the spotlight. And Shaya, you spoke with the attorney today. >> Yes, I did. And the actual hearing
00:04:37
itself was really supposed to be the chance to hear from the medical examiner on her ruling. But in lie of the city
00:04:43
unexpectedly releasing her ruling on Friday, calling Ellen Greenberg's death a suicide. The Greenberg family and
00:04:50
their attorneys say the fight doesn't stop here. >> How anybody can have faith in the law
00:04:57
enforcement institutions in Philadelphia when you see what has happened with the
00:05:01
Greenbergs. >> Joe Padrazza, the attorney representing the parents and the estate of Ellen
00:05:05
Greenberg, speaking candidly after Tuesday afternoon's hearing. >> The hearing itself was quick because of
00:05:11
a development that occurred before it. The development. The medical examiner's re-examination ruling released
00:05:17
unexpectedly Friday, just days before the ME was expected to appear before a judge and announce her ruling and take
00:05:23
questions after calling Ellen Greenberg's death a suicide. >> The city has taken the position that the
00:05:29
report serves in lie of the need for the medical examiner to appear. >> The Greenberg family attorney calling
00:05:36
the medical examiner's report shameful. There is no way anybody can professionally express an opinion that
00:05:45
Ellen committed suicide. >> 27year-old Ellen Greenberg, a newly engaged Philadelphia school teacher, was
00:05:50
found by her fiance in her manion compartment stabbed to death back in January of 2011. Greenberg sustained
00:05:56
more than 20 stab wounds. Her death was initially ruled a homicide by then medical examiner Marlon Osborne, but
00:06:03
shortly after was reversed to suicide. There's so many inaccuracies in the report. There's so many omissions in the
00:06:10
report and there's so many things taken out of context. >> Padza citing a number of points
00:06:15
addressed in the medical examiner's report, including the questioning of the time of death and the more than 20 stab
00:06:21
wounds to Greenberg's body. >> These are powerful points that unless you can explain them away, you can't
00:06:28
call this a suicide. >> Pedraza says this ruling in his view goes beyond just this report. This
00:06:35
report is just another obstacle that's been thrown up by the city to prevent that investigation from being done.
00:06:43
>> Fox 29 reached out to the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office for comment. A
00:06:47
spokesperson for the department saying in part, quote, "The medical examiner's office completed its report and provided
00:06:52
it to the plaintiffs pursuant to the obligations under the settlement agreement. We have no further comment as
00:06:58
a matter of policy. The Green Birds lost their only child, a young woman, 27 years of age. They're never going to see
00:07:06
her married or go to a marriage for her. All of that has been taken away from them. And then this huge hole in their
00:07:15
heart, what does the city do? It just dumps salt in it. 27-year-old Ellen Ray Greenberg, who
00:07:37
mysteriously died a tragic death on January 26, 2011. This led her parents down a very long and troubling road
00:07:47
filled with opposition and legal battles simply to determine correctly the manner
00:07:52
of their daughter's death. Was it suicide? Was it a homicide? Or should the death had been ruled undetermined?
00:08:00
In February of 2025, the pathologist that originally ruled the case a suicide signed a document stating he amended his
00:08:09
position on the cause of her death, no longer considering it a suicide. He wrote, "It is my professional opinion
00:08:17
Ellen's manner of death should be designated as something other than suicide." End quote. Since Osborne is no
00:08:25
longer employed by the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office, his statement does not have any influence on the
00:08:32
official death certificate. In February of 2025 here at True Crime Garage, we covered the mysterious death, the very
00:08:40
questionable death of Ellen Greenberg. In a three-part series, episodes 823 through 8:25 and an additional episode
00:08:49
on True Crime Garage Off the Record available on Patreon and Apple subscription. joining us here today in
00:08:57
the garage to further examine this case with her expert analysis, especially with the recent updates in this case, is
00:09:06
a very special guest. We have Cheryl Mack McCollum. Welcome to the garage, >> Captain Nick. Thank you. Thank you.
00:09:15
Thank you. The first thing I've got to say is congratulations on 10 years. That is remarkable to me. There are marriages
00:09:25
that don't last that long. There are certainly podcasts that don't live in, you know, stay viable that long. And
00:09:32
what y'all have done is just absolutely stellar. So, congratulations. >> We owe everything to you. [laughter]
00:09:40
>> I'll take it. >> I like to call her Cheryl Mac. I've heard others simply say Mac. Is there an
00:09:48
is there an opinion here, Cheryl, on what you prefer to be called? >> Either one is fabulous. Cheryl Mack is
00:09:54
great. Mac is great. Doesn't matter. Love it. >> As long as you call me beautiful, I
00:09:59
don't care what you call me. >> See, it is not difficult, people. It's really not. You just summed it up,
00:10:05
sugar. That's perfect. [laughter] For those of you listening that do not know, and how I wouldn't understand why
00:10:13
you wouldn't know, but for the folks that do not know, Cheryl McCullum is a crime analyst, a college professor and
00:10:20
author, and founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute based in Atlanta, Georgia. And
00:10:28
I say, "Wow, Cheryl, with a resume like that, I can tell you are a real slacker." [laughter]
00:10:36
Well, I'm going to tell y'all the truth. I've been lucky. And I tell rookies that
00:10:41
at the academy, do not ever discount luck. It's a tremendous thing. We were talking off air. One of the first lucky
00:10:50
things that ever happened to me when I was assigned to the major case division, the prosecutor assigned to that division
00:10:57
was Nancy Grace. So, right out of the gate, I had somebody dynamic and professional and ethical that was going
00:11:04
to lead our team. So, luck is good. >> And we were talking off mic just prior to this recording session about Nancy
00:11:13
Grace, one of our favorite people to see each year at Crime Con. Absolutely amazing.
00:11:18
>> Yeah. I mean, she set the stage. I mean, there's no question. She was doing true
00:11:23
crime before anybody even used that term. And you know, if not for her, the three of us wouldn't be talking this
00:11:31
very day. >> Absolutely. You're also a an Emmy award winner for your work on the extremely
00:11:41
popular TV series CSI Atlanta. What's that like? >> You know, that was one of those things,
00:11:46
too, that just came about from a good friend of mine, Karen Greer. She had an idea to put some of these local cases on
00:11:53
TV and then let's work them like I would work them as though they were my cases.
00:12:00
And that's what we did. And we got a couple of them solved and we got four nominations and one right out of the
00:12:08
gate. So, it's kind of strange. >> Please tell your people that me and Nick would love to be the new host of
00:12:16
Unsolved Mysteries. >> Oh, wouldn't that be great? Yeah. need a host. >> Mhm. >> And we got two handsome guys here in the
00:12:23
garage that could do it perfectly. >> Agreed. I'm on the phone as soon as we get off this thing.
00:12:30
>> Yeah. Together. Together the two of us could combine to make one decent host, I
00:12:36
think. >> Right. [laughter] Two halves make a hole. >> Mhm. Mhm. For longtime listeners of this
00:12:44
show, if you remember a few years back, there was a picture on my Twitter feed of me standing holding a the Emmy award.
00:12:56
And that was not an award that I won. That was actually Cheryl's [laughter] Emmy that I stole off of your table at
00:13:04
Crime Con. and I ran it back to my table so that I could have people take pictures of me holding it. So they I've
00:13:12
not won any awards. >> Well, you know, even in my acceptance speech, I told them that I was going to
00:13:17
treat mine like the Stanley Cup. Everybody that helped me on that show was going to get a weekend. Well, when I
00:13:24
brought it to Kam Con, it was the same thing. Take your picture. Do your own acceptance speech. Enjoy that thing cuz
00:13:31
I'm not going to see another one, you know? So, [laughter] let's enjoy it all of us.
00:13:36
>> In 2022, Cheryl Mack started her podcast Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum, which explores
00:13:45
cold case crimes. And Zone 7, a fantastic podcast, by the way, has explored this very strange case several
00:13:54
times. Cheryl, I know you often have guests on your show, and this is an extremely controversial case, one that
00:14:02
has made headlines, been all over Reddit, and continues to make waves. Even just last week, I saw two new
00:14:08
articles pop up on the internet about this case, and I'm sure that there were many more. But some podcasters look at
00:14:15
cases in different ways, quite different ways, actually. >> Some simply reporting. True Crime
00:14:20
Garage. Most weeks we are able to do a full examination providing that there is enough materials to pour over. But we
00:14:28
are looking at these cases with our garage goggles strapped on very tightly. You, my dear, have what they call a
00:14:36
trained eye. In fact, you have two of them. How and with who did you decide to examine this case, the Ellen Greenberg
00:14:44
case? >> Well, I wanted to talk to Dr. Pria Banerjee for sure. I mean, she's a pathologist. I'm not. So, I wanted
00:14:53
somebody at that level to just break down for me those stab wounds. Could you possibly as the cuda gr stab yourself in
00:15:05
the chest 4 in deep? And and I want your listeners to understand the way my mind
00:15:10
works. If you hit your elbow hard enough, you know how your hand just feels numb for a second?
00:15:16
>> Mhm. you start stabbing yourself between vertebrae, I don't know that you're going to be able to do that. So, I
00:15:23
needed somebody to tell me with those injuries. Could that even be possible? And then, of course, you know, Joe Scott
00:15:31
Morgan and Joshua Schiffer. I mean, there were several people that I wanted to talk to, especially Joshua being a
00:15:37
defense attorney. If you as a defense attorney are going to tell me there's problems with this case being a suicide,
00:15:43
now we're getting somewhere, right? But, you know, I go back to when I teach at the academy and y'all there's something
00:15:51
we always do with rookies and we tell them, "Look, you know, there's three teens in a park. Several witnesses see
00:15:58
them. They're walking around. They go down by the lake. They're sitting on a picnic table. One's wearing a green
00:16:04
shirt. One's wearing a black shirt. One's wearing a blue shirt." Now, according to the teen in the black
00:16:09
shirt, around 4:30, a teen that's wearing the green shirt says, "Hey, I'm headed home. My mom's making my favorite
00:16:16
meal. See you tomorrow at school. Then closer to 5:00, the teen wearing the blue shirt says, "Oh, I just got a text
00:16:23
message. My girlfriend's mom has left for work for the night shift. There ain't a parent in the house. I'mma go
00:16:29
visit her." From the group, how many teens are left in the park? And the rookies always say, "One, the kid
00:16:37
wearing the black shirt." >> Well, the answer is you don't know. You don't know that either one of those
00:16:43
boys left the park. You know somebody told you that. So on this case, with that same frame in mind, when I read
00:16:53
that in the police report, and it's been stated all over the place, no forced entry. No forced entry. Yet the
00:17:02
boyfriend broke down the door. Well, both of those things can't be true. So, the problem
00:17:09
with somebody in law enforcement writing in the report, no forced entry right out
00:17:15
of the gate, that tells me they accepted somebody's version of what happened, not
00:17:22
their investigation. Because if they had done an investigation, it would have never said no forced in.
00:17:27
>> And I think that go that plays well into something that I'm reminded of regularly
00:17:33
when we examine these cases. It's it goes to public perception of how an investigation is conducted and how a
00:17:41
determination is made. And a lot of times I think that the the general public assume that the medical examiner
00:17:50
is simply looking at the body in front of them, writing up their report, and making a determination solely off of
00:17:58
that. But what gets left out of that equation a lot of times is something that is very real and very true that
00:18:05
they are also taking a look at the circumstances in which the body is found, how it is found, what is found
00:18:13
with the body and the the story of the scene certainly plays into their ruling. Correct.
00:18:20
>> 100% Nick, it's got to especially if they weren't at the scene. The crime scene tells you so much. So does the
00:18:30
body, but you need both of those things. That's why when you have a really good homicide detective, they're going to the
00:18:38
autopsy. >> And how much do you think that that written into the record of no forced
00:18:45
entry may have played a role in the deciding factors of ruling this a suicide right out the gate?
00:18:53
>> There's no doubt about it. So when you watch TV, you know how sometimes on a show somebody will roll up and they'll
00:19:01
say, "Hey Joe, what do we got?" And then Joel will tell them, "Oh, there's a girl
00:19:05
dead on the third floor. Homicide or suicide." Or, "Oh, it's a terrible accident." I don't ever do that. I go in
00:19:14
that scene by myself. I determine what I'm seeing based on the evidence. So the evidence leads me, not Joe. I don't care
00:19:23
what Joe thinks yet. When I come back out and the lead detective goes in, then we talk. If we both see homicide or
00:19:33
suicide or accident or natural, then great. We're on the same page. If we're not, we're going back in together. And I
00:19:43
want to see what he saw and I want him to see what I saw so that we can make the best determination because something
00:19:50
like this case should never happen. Homicide, suicide, homicide, suicide, suicide, homicide. That shouldn't be a
00:19:58
back and forth. It just shouldn't. That should never happen. So somewhere evidence was not put together properly.
00:20:09
It wasn't put together so that everybody understood this is what we're looking at. I mean, you've got the court of
00:20:16
public opinion that will tell you this young lady was murdered. But now we have not one ruling, but a second ruling that
00:20:26
has said suicide, even though the second ruling found even more stab wounds. We,
00:20:32
the captain and I, when we take a look at cases, and it doesn't even have to be similar
00:20:39
to this one, but we always go into it with the mindset of, all right, somebody somebody has passed, somebody is dead.
00:20:48
Why? But we always look at it as this is a homicide until we can prove otherwise
00:20:53
or until we see other other suggestive evidence that it's not a homicide. Because I I feel like the flipping it
00:21:02
back to a homicide is far more difficult than than to take it from a homicide angle and then it becomes an accidental
00:21:11
death or a suicide. >> Nick, you and the captain have just nailed it. Every single death should be
00:21:19
worked as a homicide until you see differently. It doesn't matter if the person is
00:21:26
elderly and they have a disease and you see a bunch of pill bottles. Work it. Work it. If nothing else, it's going to
00:21:34
be great training. It's a good training day. But when you start to see something
00:21:38
where you're like, "Okay, have you ever seen a suicide with 20 stab wounds to the head, neck,
00:21:49
and chest?" >> 10 to her back and 10 to the back of the neck. >> Well, that's what I'm saying. The back
00:21:53
of the neck, >> the head, and the chest. In 44 years, if I tell you I've never seen it, suicide
00:22:01
ain't coming to my mind yet. I can promise you that. It's just not. So then I want to know where did this start? It
00:22:10
starts with a 911 call. I want to hear it. I want to hear that call while I'm standing in that apartment. You hear me?
00:22:19
>> And when I hear a delayed mention of a knife, baby, let me tell you something.
00:22:26
If it's a stranger and I'm walking through a subway and they are laying up against a wall with a knife protruding
00:22:34
from their chest, that is coming out of my mouth in the first two sentences, if not the first sentence. The fact that
00:22:41
this man did not mention a knife is stuck in her chest first tells me something and then he readily accepts
00:22:53
she did it to herself. That should stop everybody. >> It's almost like he's setting up the
00:22:59
narrative. He's saying, "Oh, I I don't know what happened. Oh, now I see a knife. She must have stabbed herself. Or
00:23:06
maybe she fell on the knife." >> Captain, I can't agree with you more. How in the world is that the first thing
00:23:12
you think? Again, with a stranger, I wouldn't thank it. Much less somebody that I was in love with, living with,
00:23:21
fixing to marry. The last thing I'm thinking, we are so happy, is that she's done this to herself.
00:23:28
>> And I almost feel like his demeanor is that he's comfortable with this situation. almost implying that he saw
00:23:38
her in this position more than a a couple times or more than a couple minutes in order to make this call. And
00:23:46
I also think it's very strange if I'm having to break into my house and I see my partner hunched over with a knife.
00:23:57
You'd think his body would go into some fight orflight mode and and also protective mode of himself. Is there a
00:24:05
intruder in here? And his mind seems to never go to that thought process. >> Never. He He won't even let law
00:24:14
enforcement think it. He wants to tell them immediately she did this to herself which if that were my case I would have
00:24:22
worked it as the opposite were true until I could see different. So again one of the things that really stuck out
00:24:29
for me was when 911 is transferring the call he's completely silent. Well panic don't wait on a transfer. If you're
00:24:39
panicked [clears throat] and you're like, "Honey, honey," or, you know, "Help," or whatever he was mumbling and
00:24:45
talking before should have been true through the transfer, but he was silent, waiting for the next person for him to
00:24:52
say something. So, there's a lot of flags with the 911 call. So, you add that to no forced entry, but there was
00:25:01
forced entry to why today? Why that day? Why that location? She didn't go to the
00:25:09
bedroom. She didn't go to the bathtub. She went to the floor and blocked him coming in. Like, none of that makes any
00:25:16
sense to me at all. >> I had when looking at this, I had just figured he goes down to the the gym of
00:25:25
the apartment building that they live in. And that was a way of him to I need some time. Something just happened up
00:25:34
there. If if he's responsible, it's obviously a very frenzied attack that not a lot of thought was put into it. I
00:25:42
don't if if he is responsible, I don't know that he planned on doing this that day at that moment. Appears to be a
00:25:49
frenzy attack to me. And then he goes down to the gym to collect his thoughts and like the captain said, start to put
00:25:55
together his narrative of, okay, I'm in a situation now. How do I fight my way out of this this trap that I've put
00:26:04
myself in? Because she's up there and she's dead and that's not changing and I have to sort out what is my next move
00:26:13
here. Do I do I move her and get her out of here? >> Mhm. >> Or do or do I stage the scene to make it
00:26:21
look like something else? >> And do I go down to the gym to take the shower to get the blood off of me? I
00:26:27
don't know. But that's why I'm saying you work it like a homicide. Did he have a locker downstairs? Did he have
00:26:33
additional clothing? I I mean the text messages. When did he decide just to bust down the door when you know you've
00:26:42
got folks that he's asking to come unlock the door but they won't. I mean the whole thing is just bizarre. But
00:26:50
again that day in that moment while he's going to be gone a half hour. >> Yeah. I think the planning I think that
00:26:56
planning took place before going down to the gym because I believe somebody locked that that latch.
00:27:05
>> Mhm. >> I don't believe it was Ellen that locked the latch. >> And the other thing, and they haven't
00:27:12
released a whole lot, but the knife handle is very telling, so it should have her
00:27:20
palm print, her fingerprints on it. If it doesn't, was it wiped clean? Is it just smeared prints that are now maybe
00:27:29
DNA? But I don't know why they're not talking about that cuz it should have her all over it. But if it's been
00:27:36
smeared and you don't have one decent print off there, I'd question that, too. >> Cheryl, was there any defensive wounds
00:27:43
>> on him? No. >> No. I mean, on on on Ellen. Well, I mean, I think when you're talking about
00:27:49
that amount of bruising, how do you ignore that? >> Again, one bruise on a forearm may not
00:27:58
be a defensive one. But when you have what was it, 30? >> Yeah. >> How do you walk away from that going,
00:28:07
"Oh, yeah, that that's a suicide. I'm comfortable with that." I don't know one expert, not one that's comfortable with
00:28:15
this case except the two that have ruled it a suicide. [laughter] Everybody else questions it. Everybody
00:28:23
from the crime scene to the 911 call to where she was found to the pre and post behavior to the position of each injury.
00:28:33
Everybody is like, "Nah, baby. There's more to this story. There's more. [music]
00:28:46
[music] >> He's Kenny Maine, the funny guy from ESPN, [music] >> formerly. He's Cooper Manning, the more
00:28:57
intelligent and handsome of the Manning brothers. >> And he's Brian Bombgardner, but to me,
00:29:02
he'll always be Kevin from The Office. >> Yeah, you and everybody else. Together,
00:29:07
we're the hosts of the new comedy golf podcast, We Need a [music] Fourth, >> from Smartless Media and Sirius XM.
00:29:14
>> It's like a cold beer after a round. You hear the strangest and most bizarre golf
00:29:19
stories from our friends, athletes, celebrities, and comedians. >> It's all about how much we love golf and
00:29:25
how much we hate golf. New episodes are out every week. Listen now and subscribe
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wherever you get your podcast. Could just be anywhere, just on a couch, doesn't matter.
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That's simplysafe.com/g. There is no safe like simply safe. [music] How much do you think the first ruling
00:34:22
does that box in any other future expert or person that has the ability to change
00:34:30
the ruling? Does does that box them in and and create obstacles for for that to be changed? I mean, if you're going
00:34:37
against a peer and somebody you work with, you know, yeah, that could be difficult. But if you can factor in
00:34:47
evidence that they weren't prevy to, that is easier for people to accept. So, look, there's no note. There's no text
00:34:58
goodbye. There's no call to her mom beforehand. There's no giving away, you know, prized possessions. She didn't hug
00:35:07
[clears throat] all her students goodbye. Like, there's nothing that suggests she was going to go home and do
00:35:14
this. She had forward plans. She had future things that were on a calendar, one being a wedding. So that day, in
00:35:25
that moment, in such a short window, something beyond tragic had to have occurred for him to say, "Hey honey, I'm
00:35:35
going to go to the gym. When I get back, we'll have dinner and watch Yellowstone." No, she decides to kill
00:35:41
herself. Why? After a great day at school, all her friends at school said, "No, it was a great day. Normal day.
00:35:48
Nothing out of the ordinary. She wasn't accused of doing anything. She didn't have police activity. She didn't have a
00:35:55
parent complaining. There was no reason. Even he has said, "No, we were good. Now, she had some mental issues." Okay.
00:36:04
Well, that's vague enough for people to run with it, but it's not clear enough to give a conclusion that would satisfy
00:36:13
me if this was my crime scene. There's a whole lot of people that suffer from different things and they don't hurt
00:36:20
themselves and they don't hurt themselves on a great day, happy time with something
00:36:28
that's coming up in the future that they're thrilled about. >> Well, and some people will cut their
00:36:34
wrist or they will hang themselves or >> or take pills. >> Yep. but to stab yourself over 20 times
00:36:45
in the front and the back. And back to what you were saying with the slashes to the vertebraes. If the knife was
00:36:54
sticking out of her neck, maybe that makes some sense cuz now we know, well, this is the final blow,
00:37:00
>> right? >> But that wasn't the final blow. So then we have to even uh imagine if she did
00:37:08
this to herself, can that damage be done to somebody by themselves? >> Dr. Pri Banerjee says no. And I'll tell
00:37:16
you something, mark 4 in on a knife and try to get it in a chicken >> and monitor the amount of force it takes
00:37:25
you to get it into a chicken. And to think that's the last thing she did with that much force. an effort after her
00:37:35
vertebrae is damaged. >> But to play devil's advocate, sometimes suicide is spontaneous.
00:37:42
>> It doesn't have to be a planned thing. >> Yeah, that's one thing we do try to
00:37:46
remind our listeners about that unfortunately it can be an impulsive act. And and here we actually see that
00:37:55
somebody I know that some folks would want to say that it was absolutely Ellen that did
00:38:02
this, but I there's no evidence to tell us exactly who, but there is evidence that somebody
00:38:10
prior to this was searching on the internet for suicide methods and specifically
00:38:17
uh painless suicide methods. >> Yeah. Well, they failed there, I'll tell you. And and here's the deal, too. Just
00:38:24
going back to the boys in the park. I don't know who did that, but they didn't select something that wasn't painful.
00:38:32
And if you're talking about spontaneity, well, she beat the hell out of herself first. That wasn't too spontaneous. I
00:38:41
mean, some of the bruising, from what I understand, was in different stages. >> Yep.
00:38:46
>> So, what is that about? And again, I understand that in moments of despair when people are suffering
00:38:55
from depression and other things that it's this second, it's going to be this moment. I don't want to hurt anymore.
00:39:02
I'm out. I get that. But even in those situations, the location of that body makes sense.
00:39:12
They're in the woods. They're in their bed. They're in the bathtub cuz they don't want to have to have the family
00:39:18
clean up something. That's not the case here. >> Right. >> So, the totality is what I'm talking
00:39:25
about. >> Speak to those bruises again because it the reports are a little all over the
00:39:31
shop with these bruises, but I've seen reports that say close to 30 bruises, some that say 20. At minimum, the the
00:39:40
least I could find that's consistent is saying that there were at least 11 or 12
00:39:45
bruises in various, as you said, stages, but they're they're at different parts of her body. Her right arm, her abdomen,
00:39:53
and her right leg specifically are noted in a lot of these reports. The thing is,
00:39:58
she didn't stab herself 20 times and then live for a day or two or three afterwards. No, she she would have died
00:40:07
regardless of who's responsible for those stab wounds, she would have died rather quickly. Yeah.
00:40:12
>> Bruising from my lay brain doesn't happen very quickly. These this is something that would have occurred how
00:40:20
much prior and I know you've not seen these bruises with your own eyes, but >> right,
00:40:25
>> but take us down that road a little bit when we compare bruising to these stab
00:40:30
wounds. >> Look, here's the bottom line. Your heart stops. She don't bruise no more mo.
00:40:34
That's it. So for her to have any bruise, it was before she died. And between 20 and 30, okay, let's say it's
00:40:45
only 15. When is the last time, even if you played high school football, that you had 15 individual bruises all over
00:40:55
your body? I have a sister. She recently fell down cement steps at work. I don't
00:41:02
know that she had 15. Now, she had some pretty good ones, but she didn't have 15. Do you understand? That's a lot. And
00:41:10
you can't tell me, well, she was clumsy. Well, she was accidentrone. It sounds to me like somebody beat her.
00:41:17
And I know how she died. Violently with repetitive stab wounds, repetitive bruising. In my world, that's a pattern.
00:41:30
who would hit her multiple times. Who would harm her in multiple ways? Again, all of that you want me to accept
00:41:40
was done by her. >> One of the things that you said was if you're investigating this case, you
00:41:46
would want to be in that apartment listening to the 911 call, >> right? >> Is there any other
00:41:54
things that you would have done initially when looking at this crime scene? I would have gone in alone. I
00:42:01
would not have asked anybody what we had. I want to hear what the caller said so that I understand what they saw. And
00:42:11
then I would absorb every single thing. For example, when the operator is talking about CPR and he says, "I can't.
00:42:22
You can't. You can't even try to save her." >> Right? >> That's interesting. And then if if he's
00:42:29
talking about I couldn't do this or I couldn't do that. And then you know where I'm standing, does that ring true?
00:42:36
Does that make sense? Right through that door, what would he have seen as soon as
00:42:40
he busted through it? Is it accurate? Well, I can't know that if I'm not standing there. So, that would be
00:42:47
important to me. The other thing is when he says she's flat on her back, was she?
00:42:52
I heard she was propped up on a cabinet. Well, again, both those things can't be
00:42:58
true. She fell on it. She fell on it. Why would he ever say that? How do you just walk through a kitchen and fall on
00:43:06
your knife 4 in into your chest, somehow flip yourself up to lean up over a cabinet? But he accepted that
00:43:15
immediately. He accepted that she did it to herself on purpose. He never once said, "Oh my god, somebody killed her."
00:43:24
which is I think what anybody would think immediately. Somebody had to have done this. The
00:43:31
person that I love wouldn't take their own life. They wouldn't leave me. He readily accepts it. She did it.
00:43:39
>> Not to get too far into psychology here, but do you feel like that that in itself
00:43:45
is to me because it screams of of someone that is an abuser, right? to to hey, [clears throat] not only am I going
00:43:55
to I okay, I forced myself into this situation now where I have to create some kind of narrative that doesn't
00:44:01
point the finger at me, but rather than go, "Oh my god, my girlfriend's been murdered. Somebody came into our home
00:44:07
and and killed my soon tobe wife." No, he's saying she killed herself right out the gate. Never says anything about
00:44:15
potential murder. Is that like a lot of times abusers believe that the the person that they're abusing
00:44:24
deserves it or or is forcing them to abuse them? >> Well, they're certainly blaming the
00:44:29
victim. I mean, it's her fault. You made me so mad I had to slap you. You made me
00:44:34
so mad I pushed you down the stairs. You did it. Sure. Because he he doesn't give
00:44:39
you just one explanation. He gives you two in a 911 call. Both are her fault. Either she did it to herself because
00:44:50
she's got mental problems or she's so ridiculous she somehow fell and stabbed herself to death on a knife. Either way,
00:44:59
it's her fault it ain't mine. That's all I can tell you. I didn't do it. >> She fell 20 some times on the knife.
00:45:06
>> Yeah, >> officer. I didn't do it. I was in the gym. >> I was in the gym. It's snowing. It was
00:45:11
snowing real bad. >> Do you think there's any thought process in the idea that he is setting up a
00:45:17
narrative? So, let's just assume for a second that he's guilty of this crime. He's setting up a narrative where he
00:45:25
goes, "Well, the door was locked and I wasn't here." So, one, he's distanced himself from the crime scene.
00:45:33
>> But then when he says, "Well, she must have stabbed herself." I would almost think that you would double down on that
00:45:41
if you're guilty and go, "Oh, yeah. Well, she was she had some mental issues and she was suicidal and and and we did
00:45:49
have some kind of argument." Or do you think that was a a conscious decision to just try to be more vague?
00:45:57
>> I think sometimes it's difficult for people to lie twice when it's on the fly. So instead of
00:46:04
lying again about it, he gives you a different version. But both versions absolve him from any wrongdoing.
00:46:12
He doesn't say somebody must have broke in. He doesn't say I don't know if they're still here. He doesn't say how
00:46:19
in the world, you know, y'all got to get here and help her. He doesn't do that. So to me, that's a red flag you don't
00:46:26
walk away from. With first responders being on the scene as quickly as they were, how difficult is it to determine
00:46:34
time of death? Because that would seem to clear things up very quickly in this case.
00:46:40
>> Again, they relied on him. He says, "I left at this time to go to the gym. I was there this amount of time. I
00:46:49
returned home." That's your window. That's your only window. Now, if he killed her an hour or two before the
00:46:55
gym, then went to the gym, then staged this whole thing. Okay, that's going to be a little more difficult. The
00:47:03
temperature is going to matter. Being inside's going to matter, all of that. But my issue for everybody that was at
00:47:09
that scene, if you look at the reports, if you look at the news that came out, what did we know about her quick? We
00:47:16
knew suicide. We knew mental issues. She stabbed herself. That's what we were told because that's what they were told.
00:47:25
But that should not be in a report as though it is fact. Just like you don't know if that boy
00:47:34
went home to have his mama's cooking or if he went down the road and was smoking
00:47:39
weed. You don't know if the other one went home to be with his girlfriend cuz her parents weren't home or if he were
00:47:44
kidnapped. You don't know. All you know is what one person told you. They left about 30 minutes apart to go two
00:47:52
different places. You don't know if they ever left the park. I don't know that she killed herself. She didn't write a
00:48:01
note. She didn't call her mama. She didn't tell her friends. She didn't give things away. Not that every suicide has
00:48:08
to do that. My point is I don't have evidence that she did that. I have a body with 20 plus stab wounds and
00:48:18
approximately 25 plus bruises and I have never in 44 years seen it. So I'm not going to accept it until I've
00:48:30
got evidence to accept it. The stab wounds in the back. What trajectory were they at? Does that make sense? Can we
00:48:40
put, you know, after everything is done and everything is swabbed, can we see exactly how they entered, did she do it
00:48:50
going upwards or downwards or from the side? You've got to explain to me how she managed to do that. Was it
00:48:58
one-handed with two hands? Can I get a knife the exact same size and reach every one of those places myself? What's
00:49:06
the length of her arm? I mean, I've got to know that. And and let me just say this, too, for everybody listening. I've
00:49:14
worked a bunch of homicides and I've worked a bunch of suicides before you sit down with a mama and a daddy. You
00:49:23
better know everything. You better be able to prove it to them 14 different ways that this is what
00:49:31
happened. they are going to have a difficult time accepting this. Even if the child has
00:49:37
said they were going to do it, told them time and again they don't want to live, told them they were going to
00:49:44
take their own life, it is still difficult. But if you have a child that has never said that, does not have
00:49:51
depression to the point that it ever crossed your mind that they would harm themselves. You can't sit with them and
00:49:58
go, "Um, yeah, you know, I'm so sorry this has happened. Uh, my condolences, but I've got, you know, 20 stab wounds
00:50:06
and 30 bruises, and she did it herself." That ain't going to cut it, honey, at all.
00:50:12
>> To your point, too, we don't have any Not only did she not leave a note or call her mama, but there's no previous
00:50:19
history of her cutting herself or or n even a single stab. >> Nope. And here's the other thing,
00:50:25
Captain Nick, anybody that has planned a wedding, you have to send deposit, you have to choose what kind of cake, what
00:50:35
kind of stamp, what kind of flatear, what kind of glasswear, what color tablecloth, what is your bouquet, all of
00:50:44
those things that she had done, every checklist. When is the last time she sent money to hold something? when is
00:50:50
the last time she met with somebody about photography or, you know, alter alternating her dress or whatever. I
00:50:58
want to know that because if you're going to tell me, oh, she sent a deposit two days before of $2,000,
00:51:06
that's another flag on the play. >> Yeah. And I think them being engaged actually maybe has more to do with this
00:51:14
situation because if they are making these plans, they're spending money. You know, you
00:51:21
could go, well, they're in a relationship, they're living together, he could easily just break up with her.
00:51:26
Well, >> sometimes for these psychopath guys, the more entangled they get, the more they
00:51:35
don't just take the most easy, logical, doesn't won't hurt anybody way to just go, hey, I don't really want to get
00:51:44
married to you and we're just got to call this off. >> And I think >> that plays into that. But also back to
00:51:53
what Nick was saying about the time of death, we do have some digital communication that is being made from
00:52:01
that apartment from her phone and and computer. But have we done any analysis to figure
00:52:09
out if that communication was similar to the way she communicated or >> That's right. And see, that's that's
00:52:16
critical, right, Captain? Because I have a daughter. She textes a very specific way when
00:52:23
she's talking to me. About two months ago, she was painting. So, she says to her boyfriend, "Tell my mom whatever." I
00:52:34
knew immediately she had not sent that text message. Cuz even though she said, "Tell her we'll be leaving here about
00:52:40
5:30 and we'll meet in the parking lot." That's not what he texted. He was like,
00:52:45
"Be there 5:30." Well, I knew that wasn't her. [laughter] So again, what is the rhythm? How does
00:52:54
she normally, you know, send things? Is it with an emoji or an exclamation point? Also, when he's not able to get
00:53:02
into the apartment, his messages to her, the phone call, the text message, the banging on the door, whatever, how did
00:53:11
it escalate? Did it escalate he's irritated? Did it escalate that he's really angry? or did it escalate that he
00:53:19
is super concerned? Well, if you can take concern out of it, that might be an answer because he didn't go downstairs
00:53:26
and beg for help saying something's got to be wrong. She's either slipped in the
00:53:31
tub or maybe she's had some type of emergency medical, you know, episode that I don't know about,
00:53:38
>> right? >> Um, that ain't what he did. So, >> do you have a a a thought on why these
00:53:47
investigators did such a poor job? >> I don't. But I'll tell you one more thing I would have done. I would have
00:53:53
asked them which apartment is vacant. I would take him to that apartment. I would go inside and latch it. I would
00:54:00
have an officer outside and I tell him, "Break in." >> Mhm. >> Same door, same amount of security.
00:54:08
If he can't break in, that means maybe his door was open when he kicked that latch. I just want to know, can he do
00:54:16
it? Can he recreate it? Show me. >> Well, one of the investigators said that there was no debris from
00:54:24
a a broken latch at the crime scene. >> Well, there's your answer. I did see pictures where the swing latch w has
00:54:33
been damaged enough and the screws pulled from the the door enough that it would have made it possible for the for
00:54:44
the door to be opened. And now I I should say 100% I don't know if that was based off of a recreation or if that was
00:54:52
the actual swing latch for Ellen Greenberg's door. >> But you understand that's something her
00:54:58
mom and dad should know. >> There should be no secrets here in in order for them to accept it. Every
00:55:05
single thing should be told to them, shown to them. If they did not put him through, show me how you did it. How
00:55:14
many times did you run into the door with your shoulder or kick it or whatever he's claiming he did? Was there
00:55:19
a footprint? Is there a scuff mark? All of those things, a bootprint should be on there.
00:55:25
>> Well, and at some point, too, the you know, the the investigators leave, right? At some point, they agree with
00:55:32
what what Sam is telling them and they and and what they do also is they leave him there at your scene. And
00:55:40
>> that's right. So therefore, again, it goes back to it's always a homicide until it's not.
00:55:46
>> It's always a homicide. And listen, I heard that they quickly called crime scene cleanup. So now there ain't no
00:55:55
going back. If you didn't get it, it ain't there. >> Yeah. We always say lazy or stupid. And
00:56:01
my issue with a lot of these cases that true crime podcasts gravitate towards are the ones that aren't investigated
00:56:08
properly. Because if they are investigated properly, we have answers. And it's almost like these detectives
00:56:16
didn't understand the oath. You're you're there to serve and protect. You're there to serve Ellen, but you're
00:56:23
there to serve her family as well. And by by getting answers that's of service to them, it it's it's so frustrating.
00:56:33
Captain, I tell rookies all the time, if you do it quick and you cut corners, that case will never go away.
00:56:43
So, this case ain't going nowhere. Nancy Grace has written a whole book about it.
00:56:50
There are podcast about it. I think there's going to be a movie about it. So, they should have taken even an extra
00:56:58
30 minutes and worked it. work the daylights out of it so that you can with some authority
00:57:07
show everybody this is what happened. Now, if it's factual and the evidence pulls you to
00:57:15
this conclusion, then again, that's something you should articulate where Joe Scott Morgan will
00:57:21
accept it, where Nancy Grace will accept it, where Dr. Pria Banerjee will accept
00:57:26
it. Well, that ain't been done here. So, I can tell you it ain't going away. I don't know how many times somebody's
00:57:31
going to say suicide. It ain't going to change any of our minds. >> I got a two-part question for you.
00:57:37
>> Okay. >> If you're investigating this case, are you questioning the fiance at the
00:57:42
apartment complex or are you taking him down to the station and would you give him a polygraph test?
00:57:48
>> I already have his 911 statement, which is good. He's already locked in on that.
00:57:54
any spontaneous utterance at the apartment. Anything that we're asking, you know, did you have a fight before?
00:58:03
Is there a note? Is anything in the home missing? He's going to tell me no. Nothing's missing. Nothing's out of
00:58:09
place. There's no sign of a struggle. Okay. Then he goes downtown. Well, now he's locked into two statements. So,
00:58:18
that's how I would start the dance. >> And what about giving him a polygraph test? He's I mean that's up to him. I
00:58:25
mean usually when you get to that point he's going to say yes or no. I understand that he's probably going to
00:58:31
talk to somebody pretty quick and they're going to advise him not to do that. But again at this point I would
00:58:36
already have three statements. >> I do want to uh echo something you just said here Cheryl about the telling the
00:58:43
rookies don't work the crime scene quick. A few years ago I had the privilege of going to taking a CSI
00:58:50
class. It was a 3-day course and I was the only civilian there that everybody else there has is was somebody that had
00:58:59
worked CSI, was a detective, uh, fingerprint analysis. It was voluntary reoccurring training.
00:59:07
>> And the thing that really stood out to me that they were teaching there was they're telling folks that that are
00:59:14
experienced at crime scenes, that have been to multiple crime scenes, this ain't their first rodeo. It was
00:59:20
certainly mine, but they're telling everybody else in the room, remember, you only get one shot at your crime
00:59:26
scene. >> Amen. >> We can't say it enough. There's You get one shot at this crime scene. You can
00:59:31
only be there for the first time once. So, don't rush out of there. Don't think that you've done this a million times.
00:59:37
You've seen it all. You know what you're looking at right away. Do your due diligence. You only get one shot at that
00:59:44
crime scene, >> 100%. And listen, I'm still an active crime scene investigator. CSI is what I
00:59:50
do for a living. So, not only do I preach that, I try to live that. I can get to a scene and it looks, you know,
01:00:01
pretty A to B. You know, you've got a deceased person with a gun beside them and an obvious sign of struggle,
01:00:08
whatever. I'm going in that trash can. I'm going in that refrigerator. I'm going to go in that mailbox. I want the
01:00:14
whole story. I'm going to go in that drawer next to your bed. Then I'mma go in your closet and I'm going to look in
01:00:20
that secret box that you don't think nobody knows there. I want the whole story. I know you got a big old Bible on
01:00:28
your coffee table. There's more to you. And I need to know. I need to understand
01:00:33
the victimology. Who would want to hurt you? Who would be so frazzled by it they
01:00:39
would leave a weapon behind? Who would tear the whole place up and not seemingly take anything? I want to know
01:00:47
all of it. So, I'm that person when I start bagging and tagging stuff, I will have a detective say, "Why are you
01:00:53
taking up that wadded receipt? How does it fit?" I don't know yet, but I'm not leaving it. If it don't fit, I ain't
01:01:01
hurt the case at all. It's nothing. But if it turns out that this is a sex shop that I didn't know about or this is a
01:01:10
bar that I never heard of or this is some type of um timeline factor that changes everything cuz receipts are
01:01:20
solid gold information. They got an address, they got a name, they've got a date and time. All that's good. And then
01:01:28
a lot of times it'll tell me what you purchased. Now we're getting somewhere. I'll take it. I know you thought you're
01:01:34
going into the garage today, but welcome to our sex shop. [laughter] Um, well, and and [clears throat] then
01:01:42
>> can you imagine the merchandise? Y'all would be millionaires. >> Uh, the the other part of that, though,
01:01:47
too, is double check your work while you're at the crime scene because you can't return. You I mean, you can
01:01:53
return, but you're you're not going to find it the same way that you left it. If if you if you pull a a a simple human
01:02:00
mistake of, oh, the digital camera was missing the the memory card at the time, or uh this wasn't done correctly, or I
01:02:07
wish I could have done this again. No, double check your work while still at the crime scene before you leave. And
01:02:14
and the great thing about crime scenes today in comparison to in decades past, we live in the digital age. You know,
01:02:23
there there was a time in this great country that we had jurisdictions that are investigating a homicide and they're
01:02:30
showing up and they're paying $10 for flashbulbs on cameras >> and and or they're working a crime scene
01:02:37
with a Polaroid camera. You know, you can you can show up to a crime scene today and and take as many pictures and
01:02:43
as much video as you want. Cost >> it cost the department nothing >> nothing >> nothing other than your time.
01:02:50
>> Absolutely. And Nick, I worked for a DA, this was 20 something years ago, that to
01:02:56
save money would only buy black and white film. >> And then we get mad if you took more
01:03:02
than 10 pictures. Okay. So, what you just said, I think, is one of the greatest benefits that has come out of
01:03:10
having a digital camera. Take 10,000 pictures. It doesn't matter. And there is a phenomenon I will tell your
01:03:16
listeners about. I've never studied it. I've never heard anybody, you know, explain it that's got a PhD. I can just
01:03:24
tell you it happens. I can take pictures in a 360 manner or what I have come to develop a 361 way of doing it and if I
01:03:36
even take a break and go sit in my car for a second, I will flip through those pictures, I will see something on that
01:03:44
camera I did not see in person. It's weird, but it happens. I take a picture of the whole dining room table and let's
01:03:52
say it's junked up with stuff. And then I take a picture of a side table and it's junked up with stuff. Somehow I
01:03:58
missed a matchbook or somehow I missed a small crack bag. It's happened. And then
01:04:04
I go back in, there it is, put my marker on it, add it to my list, and then I review pictures again. But I do that
01:04:13
before I leave. Well, I understand that with most crimes, it seems like the simple answer is normally the correct
01:04:22
answer. So, in this case, you go, well, if the door was locked, fiance's not there, that's most likely a suicide. But
01:04:32
because they only investigated it as such, they didn't look for foreign fingerprints or DNA. And Derek Levasser
01:04:42
on a podcast recently was talking about this case and he was talking about a a crime that the BTK committed
01:04:51
>> where uh guy and girl go on a date. He takes her back home. >> I can't remember if the guy went into
01:04:59
the house or not, but after some time period, he leaves and BTK was hiding in a closet. Comes out, kills her. Then
01:05:09
obviously if you're an investigator looking at the the case, you're going to go, "Well, if she was murdered, she's
01:05:14
probably murdered by the last person she was with," which would have been her date. So if they went and investigated
01:05:21
this as as a murderer first, then you have to start questioning not just the fiance, but everybody in that building.
01:05:30
And also, did she have another partner outside of the relationship? Did he have another partner outside the
01:05:38
relationship? Cuz there could be a scenario here where it's not suicide. It's not murder by the fiance, but it's
01:05:48
still a homicide by somebody else. >> Right. And I love Derek Lavasser. He has been so generous. He has worked with me
01:05:56
on a couple of cases of mine where, you know, just being able to sit down and talk through a case, you know, you'll
01:06:03
all of a sudden think of something just having that, you know, backboard. So, he's fantastic.
01:06:08
>> He also smells good. >> He does. He absolutely does. >> He smells delicious. >> He does. [laughter]
01:06:13
He does. And and he's fun, you know, but you know, to me, yes, that happened with
01:06:20
BTK, no doubt. And that was again super violent, but there was a sexual assault.
01:06:26
Here you don't have a sexual assault. So anytime you have a case that is highly violent and just vicious with no sexual
01:06:37
assault, you ask yourself, okay, people are only killed for three reasons. Sex, money, and revenge for the most part.
01:06:45
Now there's a fourth one, and that's just when somebody's crazy. But crazy you can pretty much come up with pretty
01:06:54
quickly. But if this isn't about money and she wasn't sexually assaulted, it was somebody mad at her. Well, your
01:07:02
suspect pool gets shrink pretty good. >> Back to the crime scene as well. We I had talked with a retired FBI agent and
01:07:10
there was a serial homicide offender on the loose in the early 90s in the Chicago area. and together we
01:07:18
were taking a look at one of the crime scenes and he he he showed me three polaroids from one of the homicide
01:07:25
scenes. One was a a set of stairs that had some blood on it that was leading up to the location where the body was
01:07:32
found. There was a picture of the body as it was discovered with covered by a a like old dirty blanket and then a
01:07:42
picture of the victim, the rotting corpse that was lying partially under this blanket now fully exposed in this
01:07:50
last picture. He says to me, "Nick, I want you to take a look at these and tell me what evidence you see and and
01:07:56
also if you have any questions." And I said, "Before we get to the evidence, my first question is, why aren't there more
01:08:02
pictures?" And he goes, "Exactly." He goes, "That's the problem. We're handed this case by by Chicago PD. We get three
01:08:09
Polaroids from a homicide scene." He goes, "We we >> unless it's something that we cap they
01:08:15
captured in one of these three pictures. We got very little to work with." And this to me is you do your due diligence.
01:08:22
Even if you're going into this place and you think you walk away thinking it is a
01:08:26
suicide, where's the pictures of of Samuel's fingers, of his hands, of his forearms? I mean, his clothing
01:08:34
>> of his clothing. We and and then to to hone in on something that you had said
01:08:40
early in our conversation here, Cheryl, and the captain touched on it as well. What I'm also not hearing in a lot of
01:08:48
these reports or seeing in these a lot of these reports is an investigation that took place outside of the four
01:08:54
walls of their apartment. Absolutely. Right. You you have this whole building that is that's your crime scene. Your
01:09:01
crime scene isn't just their apartment. It's this entire building. Do the three of us agree? I mean, the latch, the
01:09:08
swing latch on the door is essentially his alibi. >> There is a report that there was
01:09:15
activity on her laptop within 60 to 90 seconds after he's seen on surveillance about the same time he's
01:09:24
entering the gym. So, he would have already made his way downstairs. Now, he's entering the gym and there was some
01:09:29
activity on her laptop at that time. I don't know exactly what that activity is, but it's only stated as activity.
01:09:37
So, those two things would be his alibi and support the the story that she was alone in that apartment at the time.
01:09:45
But, do the three of us agree that whatever happened if if if she did not kill herself, if she didn't stab herself
01:09:52
20 times, do we agree that it happened before 4:45 when he's seen entering the gym?
01:10:00
Because there there there are a few folks that I've talked to and said, "Well, he could have come back up there,
01:10:04
bust down the door, and then killed her." >> Yeah. And and there's also a lot of
01:10:09
misreporting like at some point law enforcement reports that he came back up with the security guard. Well, that's a
01:10:17
big difference of situation because now you have somebody essentially an alibi. But if I'm
01:10:24
investigating this, I'm testing the bathroom drain for blood. >> Yep. And I'm testing the the gym drain
01:10:32
for blood as well. >> 100%. That's why I said that he go to the gym to get the blood off of him.
01:10:38
Part of the thing is, you know, you've got a security guard. You've got cameras somewhere on the outside or in the
01:10:46
lobby. You've got the latch allegedly. So, you're pretty much letting me accept that somebody stranger didn't come in
01:10:55
and out of there unseen. They don't have the fire escape. I mean, how did this person get in and out, right? But with
01:11:01
him, we don't have what I would like to have. So, remember Drew Peterson when his wife Kathleen was found in the dry
01:11:11
bathtub? He went and got a neighbor. The neighbor's the one that called 911. Well, was the fiance going to get the
01:11:21
security guard so the security guard could find her? I don't know. I want that answered. Why wouldn't they go with
01:11:28
him? Why wouldn't the super or whoever come up and help unlock the door? I don't know. Did they not believe him or
01:11:37
did he not try to get him? I don't know. They haven't released enough so that I can make the right call. I'm saying
01:11:47
though, you've got two parents that are going to burn through every dime they have to get justice for their child
01:11:55
because they don't accept it. You have got a slew of experts that are wellresected
01:12:03
that understand crime and crime scenes, that understand autopsies, that understand suicide that have not
01:12:10
accepted this. So there needs to be more done on the front end and this should be
01:12:17
one of those cases just like Karen Reed is one of those cases just like OJ Simpson is one of
01:12:23
those cases. If you want to show law enforcement how 10 years of their life can be wrapped into something where
01:12:31
somebody at the grocery store thinks they screwed it up. Here you go. So, you better take one
01:12:38
more second, 10 more minutes, another hour before you walk out and feel confident that you're looking at a
01:12:46
suicide when somebody comes to you as a police detective and says, "Detective." Couple questions. Have you ever seen a
01:12:56
suicide of a female with 25 plus stab wounds? Yes or no? No. Have you ever seen a suicide of a female
01:13:08
with 25 plus stab wounds that also had 25 plus bruises? No. Nothing further. You ain't seen it. Then why are you
01:13:18
putting that on the front page of the paper? Cuz you can't articulate how you got there.
01:13:23
>> And as you said earlier, the what is the trajectory of those stab wounds to the
01:13:27
back? >> I would have to know that. I would have to know why that handle of that knife
01:13:32
ain't got her fingerprint on it. I was blessed with these long ass monkey arms. And I'm telling you, I could as the
01:13:38
confirmation that we received in October of this year in a 32-page report by the
01:13:43
chief medical examiner stating that reaffirming the original ruling that Ellen Greenberg died by suicide. But the
01:13:50
trajectory of those would would mean a whole hell of a lot because I could physically reach behind me and stab
01:13:57
myself in the back. I physically could do that. But if that blade was any longer
01:14:03
>> than half an inch or 1 in, and I got some long arms, it it would be coming in
01:14:08
at an angle and not straight up or down. >> Mhm. That's what I'm saying. Why won't
01:14:12
they release it? If you're so confident, tell me how you got there. At least sit
01:14:19
with her mama and daddy and say, "Look at this." Like, take an ink pen. Did she go in from the side? Because everybody
01:14:26
likes to show like from the top of the head all the way down. It doesn't have to be that. It could be from the side.
01:14:32
But the angle would tell you that. I want to know that how did that knife go in her and at what depth and at what
01:14:42
interval? Cuz it's just not adding up to me the way they've played it, you know.
01:14:48
But you know y'all, I'm going to I'm going to say again, if there's any young officers or young detectives,
01:14:57
this is your nightmare. When you don't spend 8 hours somewhere, it's what's going to happen. Did you
01:15:04
look in the trash can? Maybe she had written a note, changed her mind cuz it wasn't good enough, and wed up and put
01:15:10
it in the trash can. But you're going to look and say, "Oh, they looked up suicide that ain't painful." And then
01:15:16
she picked one of the most painful things ever. I cannot imagine being stabbed in the back of my neck between
01:15:24
vertebrae. How bad that must hurt. And she didn't even lose consciousness. She just kept right on going.
01:15:31
>> Well, and trash can. Did you check the the trash can that would have been at the ground level floor or or possibly
01:15:41
the basement level floor? Because I worked in a high-rise building for many years. Every floor and every corridor
01:15:48
had a trash shoot. And if I have bloody clothes, bloody items that I need to get
01:15:54
out of that apartment without me leaving the actual building, that's going to be
01:15:59
I'm going right to that trash shoot and I'm throwing those items down there and they'll be they'll be
01:16:06
>> sent right into a to a dumpster. >> Yeah. Did they check her trash can at school?
01:16:11
>> Did they check her school computer? >> And like you said earlier, Cheryl, did
01:16:15
he have a locker in that gym? >> That's right. Did he take a duffel bag with him that never came back up? And
01:16:21
>> and it's just such a shame because we sit here with all these questions still
01:16:26
to this day. Her parents have and her loved ones have far more questions than we ever will have.
01:16:32
>> Right. But the the ruling that they get last month in October of 2025 in this
01:16:40
report by the chief medical examiner is is basically saying, "Look, we admit that the distribution of injuries here
01:16:47
is unusual. It's a little strange, but we have found that she would have been capable of inflicting these injuries
01:16:55
herself." So, it's it's almost like a because it could have happened, we are going to say that it did happen.
01:17:02
reaffirm that it did happen. And then going another step further to saying that oh the
01:17:08
>> the injury to her spinal cord because that was a big issue too of like well that there were some experts saying that
01:17:16
injury to her spinal cord would have would have had to have been the last injury if she was harming herself
01:17:22
because she would no longer be capable of harming herself. >> That's what Dr. Bannery said. Yep.
01:17:27
>> Exactly. And then then they say, and we know, here's what we do know. That knife
01:17:32
sticking out of her chest, that's the last wound. That's that would would stand a reason that that would be the
01:17:39
last inflicted wound. So, if that spinal cord injury happened prior to the knife
01:17:44
sticking out of her her chest, then she didn't kill herself. But again, now they're saying, well, that could have
01:17:51
been accidentally done during the course of her autopsy procedure. And it's it's
01:17:55
because it could have happened. we're going to say that it did happen. >> And that's where the real shame comes in
01:18:01
because again, if you do not have evidence, I don't want to hear about a theory. I don't want to hear about it,
01:18:10
could have. It's possible if all of these things line up that this happened. The evidence that we have that we know
01:18:19
occurred does not lead anybody to suicide. There's at least I think four stab wounds that would have rendered her
01:18:30
unable to complete the last stab wound to her chest with that much strength. I think she would have already been
01:18:38
passing out. I think she would have been losing consciousness. I think she would
01:18:41
have been losing strength. But here we are. >> Here we are, Cheryl. And hey, you are an
01:18:48
absolute delight. We thank you so much for joining us here today. You went you got to go on a double date with two
01:18:55
garage guys. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. >> It is the highlight of my week, if not
01:19:02
my year. I can tell you that. I have enjoyed y'all at Crime Con. Y'all are fun. Y'all are smart. Y'all are gifted
01:19:11
in many, many ways. And I just want to say uh when y'all set up at Crime Con, y'all are swarmed from day one to the
01:19:22
very last minute. Your fans are second to none. They adore y'all for all the right reasons. And it's just a joy to
01:19:30
watch. I'll tell you, I've sat across from y'all more than one time going, "Good Lord, look at all them people."
01:19:35
And it's just wonderful. and what y'all have put together and what y'all have done again for a decade cuz I don't know
01:19:43
that people really understand. You've got to think of something fresh. You've got to think of a different way of doing
01:19:49
it. You've got to deliver every day and y'all have done it flawlessly for a decade. That's that's pretty remarkable.
01:20:01
>> Well, what else is absolutely wonderful is your podcast, Zone 7. Everybody should go check it out. Before we
01:20:07
release you from the garage here, Cheryl Mack, give us one or two of your favorite episodes that that you've been
01:20:14
able to cover so far. Well, I guess one it would have to be 911 because during 911 I was sent to the Pentagon and my
01:20:23
sister was diverted to Gander and there was a constable in Canada that made sure
01:20:30
she was safe and had some fun while she was stranded there. Um, so the good people of Gander have been kind of a
01:20:39
remarkable story in my life. So, I say that one and uh the Olympic Park bombing cuz I was in charge of the crisis
01:20:46
response team which nobody would have ever known or cared about except we had a bomb and you know what kind of
01:20:53
transpired there for me was pretty career changing. Um, and you know, the love and just devotion that I have to
01:21:04
Fallon, whose mother Alice Hawthorne was killed in that blast, is something that
01:21:09
means a lot to me. And then I would say the last one is probably Melissa Wolfenberger. Um, and I have just
01:21:16
written a book about that case because it was so crazy that this has never happened in history, y'all, that a
01:21:24
serial killer becomes a true victim of crime when his daughter is brutally murdered and he reached out to law
01:21:33
enforcement and then reached out to me for help solving his daughter's murder. So that book is called Swans Don't Swim
01:21:42
in a Sewer. And that phrase I learned from Nancy Grace back in the day cuz we were
01:21:49
driving around all the trap houses and crackouses looking for a victim that if she didn't make it to court, this guy
01:21:56
was going to walk out. And the rookie driving us around all these places was getting a little irritated that we were
01:22:02
just going to one horrible situation after the other looking for her. And he's like, "Why in the world are we
01:22:09
doing this?" You know, why don't we go look in better places? And Nancy was trying to explain to him, "Where do you
01:22:15
think she's going to be? She's a crackhead that is our victim, and she was brutally attacked, but if we don't
01:22:22
find her, this person is going to be out there to hurt again." And she said, "Swans don't swim in a sewer. Of course,
01:22:30
we have to go to pimps and drug dealers and other violent people." So, in order to try to help solve this case, I had to
01:22:38
use a killer to catch [music] a killer. >> Incredible. Amazing. Thanks again for
01:22:43
joining us here in the garage today and we look forward to it. Hey, let's do it again and we'll see you at the next
01:22:50
Crime Con. >> I appreciate it so much. And y'all call on me anytime. [music] >> [music]
01:23:11
>> Want to thank everybody so much for joining us here in the garage each and every week. [music] Make sure you check
01:23:16
out true crimegar.com. Pick up some merch. Treat yourself. Colonel, do we have any recommended
01:23:24
reading for the beautiful listeners? >> We're going to do a little recommended listening. a little recommended viewing
01:23:29
this week. We're going to double down. First off, of course, go and listen to Zone 7. It's a fantastic podcast. You'll
01:23:37
be smarter for doing so. And that is a tip of the cap to our good friend Cheryl Mack McCollum who joined us here today
01:23:46
in the garage for the first time. It won't be the last time. And recommended viewing. Go to YouTube on the search
01:23:53
bar, type in Captain Fat Hands. I think you know who he is. Check out his YouTube page, his YouTube
01:24:00
channel. Subscribe so you don't miss all of the great stuff that he's doing there. If you like good music, if you
01:24:06
like cool little videos that go along with it, that is a great channel to follow Captain Fat Hands on YouTube. And
01:24:13
you can find both of those great recommendations along with all of our other recommendations on our recommended
01:24:20
page. That's on our website, true crimegar.com. Hey, it's only my seventh channel, so maybe this one will stick.
01:24:28
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