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[Music] % [Music] welcome to True cribe garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
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everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime
00:04:03
[Music] [Music] guys [Music] still tonight four years later and no arrest in the deli case as the days
00:04:45
continue to pass on we keep asking Indiana State Police are they getting any closer to a break in this double
00:04:51
homicide case it's been four years since the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German and still the voice of of
00:04:59
the suspected killer continues to haunt Deli Indiana that audio clip of the Killer's
00:05:07
voice telling the girls to go down the hill was released by Indiana State Police investigators say Libby recorded
00:05:14
the suspect's voice and snapped this photo on her cell phone before her young life was taken away
00:05:22
guys tonight the killer still on the Run being chased down by many of the investigators who've been out there
00:05:29
since day one like Carol County Sheriff to lesen seems like it was just yesterday when we started this thing
00:05:35
13-year-old Abby and 14-year-old Libby were out on a walk on the deli historic Trails on February 13th of 2017 when
00:05:44
investigators say they were approached by this man the girl's bodies were found the next day in the woods about a mile
00:05:50
off of the main trail in 2019 Indiana State Police released an updated sketch of the suspect that composite looked
00:05:58
nothing like like this previous sketch which had been the face of the investigation for 2 years it's like wait
00:06:05
a minute now we got to start all over and we got to explain why they're doing what they're doing they've obviously
00:06:09
received enough information on the first sketch to realize that that person isn't
00:06:14
the right one several agencies still working this investigation all of them were having like a team weekly meeting
00:06:22
in doai the Carol County Sheriff dedicated two detectives in his small Department to follow up on leits basic
00:06:30
footwork leg work so to say phone calls what was this individual um doing on February 13th 2017 you know were they at
00:06:39
work were they traveling for the past four years police have served search warrants questioned Persons of Interest
00:06:46
and received thousands of tips still no arrest we still have those up and down days I guess is the easiest way to put
00:06:55
[Music] it [Music] the general statement across the board from law enforcement and the Press is
00:07:15
that there is no new news in the 4-year-old Deli murders case and Captain I say we got to get rolling we got to
00:07:25
jump right in because no new news heck we got a whole bunch of stuff to talk about here first it was announced that
00:07:33
there would be no press conference on the 4th anniversary of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams the
00:07:40
two middle school students who went for a hike on the monan High Bridge Trail in
00:07:46
2017 and did not return alive a questions about the case from both the local community and across the nation
00:07:55
and Beyond have been escalating for more than two years years so a few weeks ago
00:08:02
the local newspaper the Carol County comment ran the following readers invited to submit questions about double
00:08:10
homicide Carol County Sheriff Tobe lesen agreed to answer questions solicited by
00:08:17
the comment from readers and others all right Captain let's Dive Right into this
00:08:22
I actually submitted some questions myself hoping that they would be chosen and we might get some answers to these
00:08:29
questions so the questions I sent in are as follows first I did a little butt kiss and it it always helps to do a
00:08:36
little uh you know Grease the wheels a bit here well it's better to do butt kissing than butt sniffing there you go
00:08:43
so I started off by saying dear Sheriff lesby thank you for your hard work and continued efforts on this very difficult
00:08:51
case I truly appreciate the dedication shown by you in the Caroll County Sheriff's department now for the
00:08:59
brilliant questions is there any reason to believe the killer had some kind of help or assistance and is this making
00:09:07
this difficult case even more complicated than normal by help or assistance specifically I mean a second
00:09:14
perpetrator or maybe someone who dropped the man off or picked him up or do you think someone is providing a false Alibi
00:09:22
well I also think people lean to the idea that there's two individuals because there's two sketches and they
00:09:30
look so dramatically different from each other yes and you've often heard me say
00:09:35
that I believe that the bridge guy has some kind of help I don't know what that is and again it could be someone
00:09:43
unknowingly helping this guy or even willingly the second question I submitted was if the man on the bridge
00:09:50
was totally alone where do you think he parked his vehicle if a vehicle was used
00:09:56
at all again a great question and this is is something that law enforcement pointed out as one of kind of their
00:10:03
updates was they were looking for a vehicle they never tell you the color the make or the model they don't tell
00:10:08
you if it's a sedan or if it's a truck but there is a vehicle that they wanted people to come forward if they saw it I
00:10:16
believe on the 13th uh no update from law enforcement on that vehicle I would have to go back
00:10:24
to our previous Deli murders shows which we've done seven of of them so far the first was Deli Murders episodes one and
00:10:34
two parts one and two I'm sorry episodes 110 and 111 this is back from May 2017 so we've been there since the
00:10:44
beginning and we've continued to cover this case and look into it when something new comes out and one of the
00:10:51
great things about this case about the True Crime community and this case is right from the beginning people were
00:10:59
promoting pictures that law enforcement put out the sketches that they put out then we've had some updates a big change
00:11:07
2 years after the murders when they released the new photos but we've also had some big Publications on this a
00:11:14
podcast that was pretty huge down the hill and then just recently released around the 4-year anniversary the down
00:11:22
the hill documentary on HLN yeah we Revisited the case in July of 2019 and this would be after that big press
00:11:32
conference with the news updates when they changed to the new sketch and said the old sketch would now become
00:11:39
secondary it was during that news conference that they also released information about the vehicle that you
00:11:44
just mentioned I do believe there was some very brief and vague description I would have to refer back to those
00:11:52
episodes but our first two episodes there was really nothing as far as good information the timeline was much
00:12:00
shorter than what we now know it to be so really we were able to lay out a really good detailed timeline with much
00:12:08
speculation in those later Deli episodes which again we did four parts in July of
00:12:17
2019 so again sticking with the vehicle idea my third question is is there still
00:12:25
reason to believe that the vehicle previously mentioned in news releases is in fact involved or has that vehicle
00:12:32
been cleared as you said Captain they asked for tips about this vehicle we've received no update as to if it's still
00:12:43
information that they're even looking for at this point right and in some interviews I've seen law enforcement
00:12:50
still state that they believe they're one tip away from solving this case so without the long lead in I'm now going
00:12:58
to go through through the questions that were selected and the answers provided to those questions by the sheriff in
00:13:06
charge Tobe lesen the Carrol County comment starts off by saying there are five sections of
00:13:13
questions to this story that's pretty interesting they broke them down into a few different sections to keep it nice
00:13:18
and neat and easy to follow for the reader and the five sections are as follows those specific to the double
00:13:26
homicide case questions concerning internal and external Communications questions about the crime
00:13:33
scene and adjacent terrain questions about the command center and questions about the overall safety of Carol
00:13:42
County the first question Captain is do you consider this a cold case and why and Sheriff Tobe lesen responds
00:13:51
absolutely not a true Cold Case provides no leads no information to follow into this is not the situation with the Abby
00:13:59
and Libby investigation our investigators are still on a daily basis receiving information which can be
00:14:07
looked into in essence the well has not gone dry he says well what's really interesting about the down the hill HLN
00:14:17
documentary is when they talk about the early involvement with the FBI how they didn't hesitate they got him involved at
00:14:25
one point the FBI agent said there was hundreds of Agents working this case next question how would this case be
00:14:34
handled from the beginning had there not been any audio slide of the person of interest answer obviously we would have
00:14:43
had to rely on other evidence gained from all sources is there any area that you can see like I just said there was
00:14:51
hundreds of FBI agents work in this case is there anything that sticks out at you
00:14:57
that you would have done differently if you were in charge of the investigation that's very difficult to answer because
00:15:03
I don't know what information they know to be fact right that that we are uncertain of stuff that's probably just
00:15:12
been speculation and rumored about so far in this investigation I did recall hearing Tobe
00:15:20
lesen be say you know he was asked one of course he's asked this question here but uh he was asked a similar
00:15:29
question some different words involved but very similar question and one thing he did say was you know we called some
00:15:36
dogs in some blood hounds that were going to come in and help us search for the girls when they were still missing
00:15:43
right and he says you know if I could go back and do it again what they did was when they found the girls Unfortunately
00:15:49
they find them dead when they found the girls these dogs were being brought in from out of town if not out of state we
00:15:57
called that off and he says if I could go back and change at least one thing I would have
00:16:03
changed that I would have still let the dog show up because maybe they could have provided a a trail maybe not
00:16:11
necessarily to the killer but at least the dogs may have been able to follow the Killer and we might have been able
00:16:18
to learn some of his movements or at the very least what way he he left this area
00:16:25
right because I I think the difficult thing here is I don't think there's any clear going back over all the interviews
00:16:32
going back over different podcast episodes and the documentary I don't think there's any clear definitive
00:16:39
eyewitness that can say I absolutely saw bridg man enter or leave the park I think there's people that believe they
00:16:47
saw Bridgeman but then they say uh I think I saw Bridgeman but he didn't have his jacket on at that point so again I
00:16:55
think this is a big misstep and one of the the things when you look at the crime scene we know that this
00:17:03
perpetrator took these victims down across the river to the other side did he come back across that River leave the
00:17:13
park entrance or was his vehicle parked somewhere else or did he leave on foot and I think if you look at the two in
00:17:22
the close proximity of the crime scene there's multiple locations on that river that look like you can cross like a a
00:17:29
bed of rocks or where it's just very low water and there's Pebbles and stuff around so I think that dogs would have a
00:17:37
really good shot at keeping the scent of the perpetrator and one thing that the sheriff is on record as saying is that
00:17:45
look we have a lot of what he calls very good speculation about what direction and how the perpetrator would exit this
00:17:55
area but he said it's just that it's just very good speculation we do not know for certain how he left this area
00:18:03
did one or more than one set of footprints lead Searchers to the area where the girls were found and lesen
00:18:11
gives the following answer this speaks to an evidentiary aspect of the investigation and I would respectfully
00:18:18
prefer not to answer this is interesting because I I don't know if you've seen this or heard this before about the
00:18:27
potential of footprint that being from bridge guy and or the victims or both that may have led the
00:18:35
people looking for liby and Abbey to their bodies I I had not seen this speculation before it's it's certainly
00:18:43
not out of bounds it's something anybody would have thought of I had always heard
00:18:48
the rumor that there was something that alerted one of the Searchers and kind of
00:18:55
got their attention MH and at the same time they very quickly saw what they thought could be one of the victims and
00:19:04
then they they walked in that direction and confirmed it was what they thought they were seeing well what we do know is
00:19:10
confirmed with law enforcement is like I said the perpetrator took the victims across water so even if the ground is
00:19:19
hard and not leaving footprints around the Water Area there could be some muddy spots and if the perpetrator CR that
00:19:29
water multiple times good possibility that somewhere he left a footprint is there partial DNA or a full DNA profile
00:19:37
of the suspect if there is DNA has it been run against a genealogy DNA database and his answer is very similar
00:19:46
this also speaks to evidentiary aspect of the investigation so he declines to answer however he is on record saying we
00:19:55
do have DNA now is it it that of The Killers we don't know yeah it's very difficult here there's a lot of
00:20:03
Rumblings online that I've heard that they do have DNA I obviously can't confirm that but the other rumor that I
00:20:12
hear is that this individual was at one of the searches and from people being at
00:20:18
the search they said well look there was tons of people in the community searching and what were they doing they
00:20:24
were smoking cigarettes they were drinking bottled water so does dipping what do you say after
00:20:32
every episode don't Litter mhm these individuals were littering all over so is it possible that from one of these
00:20:40
items they have DNA but it's not actually at the crime scene it's just with inside the park yeah so let's take
00:20:49
that a step further I I believe if I'm going to kind of read between the lines here and try to figure out what what it
00:20:55
is that he is saying or what it is that he isn't saying uh because these are two very different
00:21:00
answers when asked in person he says yes we have DNA we just don't know if it belongs to the killer or not keep in
00:21:06
mind the questions we're going through here today I believe that these questions were submitted to the sheriff
00:21:15
and he's able to sit down read through them and think very clearly he doesn't have to think on the Fly he can pick and
00:21:22
choose which ones he's going to answer and that's why I think you get different answers at different times when he's
00:21:28
interviewed in person he's a little more forthcoming and I think it's because it
00:21:32
shows his General nature he wants to be a little more transparent he wants his agency to be the the heroes for this
00:21:40
community this community is in desperate need of a hero or Heroes to find bridg guy and and hold him responsible for
00:21:49
this terrible act what we have here Captain I I have to look at his words and say okay well what what does that
00:21:58
mean as far as the DNA goes well it means a few different things to me one the DNA has to be of a type that you can
00:22:04
immediately go I can't connect this to the killer because we've reviewed enough cases that there are certain types of
00:22:13
DNA that if found you know the likelihood of it belonging to the Killer is like 99% chance right if if we were
00:22:23
to find Sean in the direct area or of the victim are on the victims M you would expect that to be from the killer
00:22:32
if you found blood that didn't belong to the victims on the victims or near the victims you would believe that that came
00:22:40
from the killer so I don't think we're talking about that type of DNA I think we're probably working with either touch
00:22:48
DNA or like you said saliva or DNA that would have been transferred to an item that would have been discarded in the
00:22:58
area the problem with this doesn't necessarily have to be the Searchers themselves that certainly can add to it
00:23:05
but this is a this is outdoors this is a public place there could be beer bottles
00:23:10
or cigarette butts or any type of debris that they could find someone's DNA on they just don't know if it's related to
00:23:19
that case to to this double homicide was that debris discarded there on the day that the victims were killed I think
00:23:28
ultimately that's the Crux of this case and the the downfall of this case is most cases don't get a spotlight this
00:23:37
one did the evidence that they do have they have to keep close to their chest but they keep getting the
00:23:45
spotlight so they they're trying to give the information out but again they have
00:23:49
to keep things close to the chest and I think that's because it's getting such a
00:23:54
big Spotlight that's what leads to rumors conspiracy theories and and a bunch of other stuff the public has been
00:24:02
given two sketches is the thought there is more than one person involved or is the second sketch the suspected killer
00:24:09
please clarify the two sketches this has been a point of confusion since the second sketch was released and his
00:24:17
answer is these were produced by information gained from Witnesses near the area during the time frame the
00:24:26
primary focus by invest ators is on the second sketch well and Kelsey Libby's sister I think 3 weeks ago in an
00:24:35
interview that I was listening to they were asking her about the second sketch she never mentioned that they got it
00:24:41
from eyewitnesses she said law enforcement told her new technology is the reason why that there was a second
00:24:49
sketch and what a frustrating thing and maybe a misstep in this investigation to
00:24:54
spend 2 years of your life doing nothing but promoting this picture to turn around and and try to go back to those
00:25:02
same resources and outlets and say oh by the way that picture is not correct here's the one that we want you to
00:25:09
present to the public and that's certainly a possibility but I want to Echo what what the sheriff is saying
00:25:16
here because that's been their stance from Jump Street and it's been the the The Stance of the sheriff's office as
00:25:24
well as the Indiana State Police both agencies have always said that the second sketch was based off of witnesses
00:25:33
that were near the area during the time frame and they're really they're really honing in on the day that the the two
00:25:42
girls went missing and that's the information that they are very strong on and really looking for more information
00:25:51
regarding that day not as much the second day the day that the two were found the next question is was video
00:25:58
collected throughout Deli from February 13 2017 including video from the building across from the abandoned CPS
00:26:07
building multiple pieces of evidence including anything technologically based have been gained at least information
00:26:15
followed into or brought to the attention by the investigators at least information followed into or brought to
00:26:24
the attention by the investigators is the second part of his answer which seems a little bizarre to me if you can
00:26:34
get surveillance footage from anywhere surrounding the park the bridge those private properties right any way in and
00:26:44
out I'm hoping that they didn't just sit back and wait for people to bring that to their
00:26:50
attention the investigators need to be out pounding on doors pounding the pavement and collecting that information
00:26:56
themselves they They Knew by noon or 1 on the 14th MH this is a double homicide I I guess maybe he's
00:27:05
just giving a a um a PC answer I don't know but it seems a little weird the wording brought to the attention of the
00:27:14
investigators well again we have zero evidence or zero confirmation that any eyewitness or surveillance was caught of
00:27:23
a guy covered in blood and I believe this indiv would have been covered and blood I think it would been absolutely
00:27:31
impossible for him not to be and then I don't really understand this question I'll read it though captain and if you
00:27:37
uh can figure it out just uh throw something at me and and tell me what's up question no matter how distant do you
00:27:45
have the man walking on the bridge videoed by Libby on any other video okay I see what they're saying now do do we
00:27:53
have video of him doing anything else or is there any other another video of this
00:27:59
man I guess walking elsewhere or seen elsewhere his answer is this is close to an evidentiary information question and
00:28:06
I prefer not to respond this is interesting because we we know his statement of however Bridge guy left the
00:28:15
area is all speculation it might be very good and very informed speculation but we can't safe or certain how he left the
00:28:23
area if you had other video of this guy of bridge guy on any type of surveillance footage or or anything
00:28:30
that's in this question here you think that would help them pinpoint that down a little
00:28:37
better I I have a hard time though believing that there's no other footage of this guy anywhere else I I probably
00:28:47
would lean more towards the the thought that there is video of this dude someplace else they just don't know that
00:28:52
it's him like if you have some bad distant grainy footage of of of random people walking somewhere you might be
00:29:01
able to go well he might be in this footage but we have six people 10 people 18 people in this footage that are all
00:29:10
unidentified what we do know about the bridge guy picture it's coming from video that Libby took the speculation at
00:29:19
first was that it didn't come from her nobody knew that a lot of people thought it came from like a trail cam or
00:29:26
something so maybe that's also why people are going hey well if if we thought the original picture came from a
00:29:33
trail cam there must be a bunch of trail cams out there and did one of them pick
00:29:38
up and take a picture of the murderer mhm well this goes to that same thought why have no other pictures from Libby's
00:29:46
phone been released to the public and he gives a similar answer this is close to
00:29:51
an evidentiary information question and I prefer not to respond but again when he's interviewed in person we get a
00:30:01
a slightly different answer to a slightly similar question and it was look we have additional video we have
00:30:11
additional audio however there's nothing and I believe his exact words were something
00:30:18
like there's nothing Earth shattering that would be on there that would help anybody in the public go okay well now I
00:30:26
know who this is I think that Echoes what something we've said before we have to believe that they've provided us with
00:30:33
probably the best portion of that video for us to look at they've probably provided us with the best portion of
00:30:40
that audio for us to hear that's the best chance that the public can help to identify this guy or submit the right
00:30:47
tip that will lead to an arrest in the deli [Music] case [Music] this show is sponsored by better help do
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[Music] that [Music] all right welcome back cheers mates you always make us feel so welcome there
00:33:10
Captain well I just want to go back again it's the Crux of the case you ask for a bunch of
00:33:16
questions all your answers are going to be well we can't share that information mhm I
00:33:23
mean again a lot of cases don't get the spotlight that this one 's getting I I'm
00:33:28
so happy that 4 years later we're still talking about it we still care we we still want answers we still want Justice
00:33:37
and people are trying to do everything they can it's it's almost like here's my other issue you collected the questions
00:33:45
you sat down and took the time to answer them why not just every question that you're going to answer is the ones that
00:33:54
you put out to the public the ones that you say well well we can't answer that we have it's there's evidence there and
00:34:01
we can't release that you don't need to print that well I think you got to keep in mind we got two different entities at
00:34:08
work here we have the the newspaper who collected all the questions decided which ones would be asked to the sheriff
00:34:15
submitted them to the sheriff and then he's he's answering the questions back to the newspaper and then they're the
00:34:22
ones printing them so they would have had hundreds of these questions if not maybe a thousand or two and they're the
00:34:30
ones that are kind of curating if you will the questions that are submitted to the the sheriff and I think in you know
00:34:38
just to be jally responsible right they're trying to be transparent correct so the next question is why have you
00:34:46
never released the FBI's suspect profile to the public and Toby's answer is it has been discussed with the FBI but
00:34:55
again it is currently felt it is too close to the evidentiary element now we talked earlier about what would I have
00:35:06
done different or or you or or anybody else out there this is something I would pivot from I would I would pivot to if
00:35:13
you do have an FBI profile pivot if you if you have one and you think that it's good that needs to be released pivot
00:35:23
that should be released to the public I I well I think the profile might be more
00:35:27
important than the actual sketch because I think a lot of the sketch is coming from that F that video and that is so
00:35:36
grainy that I look the guys down the hill audio was cleaned up and as a audio engineer I would tell you that clip is
00:35:46
completely dirty and that's cleaned up by people that are connected to the FBI so I think the these sketches especially
00:35:55
after four years have done a lick of good other than maybe create some speculation on the internet if they
00:36:01
would have released the profile with the sketch people would have started eliminating people right away and not
00:36:09
set in as many tips and maybe not sent you on as many wild goose chases are there regrets about not securing the
00:36:17
morning Heights Cemetery as a possible part of the crime scene and then they go on to say I.E possible exit route of the
00:36:27
killer or Killers his answer is at the time it was uncertain exactly what the totality of the circumstances were yeah
00:36:36
I get that and I and I'm on his side you they didn't know exactly what they were
00:36:40
dealing with and right it's it's hard to go back in time you can't and and change
00:36:47
certain aspects of your investigation question do investigators believe the bridge photo and voice
00:36:55
belong to the same person and this is a question that keeps good question it's a
00:37:00
good question it keeps recycling this question over and over again though throughout the the years here and his
00:37:06
simple answer is yes uh we believe the bridge photo and voice belong to the same person right which makes me believe
00:37:14
that it's one perpetrator right and we have Doug Carter from the Indiana State Police who said in the the famous press
00:37:25
conference the 2-year press conference he said you know the voices you hear remember before it was just down the
00:37:31
hill right and then it became guys down the hill he specifically said before releasing that
00:37:39
audio that the voice you are hearing is one person the day the girls were found how
00:37:46
quickly were you personally on the scene how quickly was the crime scen secured how many police and emergency response
00:37:54
individuals were physically present at the crime scene what departments were represented at the scene his answer as I
00:38:02
recall a very short amount of time less than an hour by law enforcement immediately I do not recall without
00:38:12
referencing reports mainly Sheriff's Office Indiana State Police and the FBI well I think at one point there's a
00:38:20
statement in the documentary again it's a documentary so it might not be factual
00:38:26
but they claimed that there was at least four crime scene technicians investigating the crime scene and
00:38:34
basically saying that there was tons of evidence that they were able to collect at the crime scene and I can't recall
00:38:41
100% Captain but I think that the person that gave that statement was from Deli Police Department or Indiana State
00:38:50
Police it was a member of law enforcement that said that that there were four crime scene technicians on the
00:38:58
scene and that I think he said they worked the scene for about 4 days alog together so a lot of time spent there
00:39:06
and you wouldn't spend that long of time at the crime scene if you weren't continually finding new pieces of
00:39:13
evidence or just pieces of anything really because you don't know what is evidence and what is just what was just
00:39:19
already there I think that because the murders took place Outdoors because the victims are found
00:39:27
outdoors and this is an area that uh while very remote where the bodies were found this is also parts of this area
00:39:35
are high traffic as far as foot traffic goes I think that that complicates things and that that adds to the list of
00:39:43
things that you collected during that time when you're when you're trying to piece everything together what you what
00:39:49
you do is you collect everything you can possibly find mhm and then later determine if it has anything
00:39:57
the crime at all now when you say high foot traffic areas the bridge well yes I would guess
00:40:04
the uh the moanin high trail system itself um the bridge maybe but uh yeah the the other side of the bridge is not
00:40:14
going to be have the same level of foot traffic you know and and again certainly
00:40:20
where the girls are found is not going to have nearly the amount of foot traffic as you would expect on the trail
00:40:26
system itself yes and and there was also some foot traffic some people instead of
00:40:32
taking the trails they would follow the river line so there would be some foot traffic along the River Line yeah and
00:40:42
the the other issue too becomes that you have such a big area to cover as far as
00:40:48
the crime scene techs go right because we know that at least an article of clothing was found in the creek itself
00:40:57
the bodies were not found in the water so I mean you can and then the we know that the bridge guy was on the bridge
00:41:04
and the victims were on the bridge we know that they were dropped off at the trail head and walked the trail system
00:41:10
to get to the bridge so you can see if you close your eyes and try to imagine as you hear the words coming out of my
00:41:17
mouth you can see this crime scene just growing and growing and growing uh very quickly for investigators well and we
00:41:24
also know that we have a a shoe that was found and we know that her phone wasn't
00:41:29
found at the the the crime scene so you have to take those pieces of information
00:41:36
and triangulate all of that together where was the phone found that's not clear but it it's clear that it wasn't
00:41:44
like connected to the the crime scene maybe it was on the other side of the river I'm not really for sure it's just
00:41:52
the statement they made they found the phone because of it pinging off the towers when they found the bodies and
00:41:58
when they found the phones were separate times so that is what leads me to believe that the phone was not in the
00:42:05
same location as the bodies right that's why what I wanted to clarify because the
00:42:09
whole place is a crime scene right so it found at the crime scene just not right
00:42:14
with the bodies is what what we believe in the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene
00:42:22
descriptions of items found and the positioning of the body do you feel there was an excessive
00:42:29
number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene I guess there the simplest form of this question
00:42:37
would be were there too many people involved in the search that they have contaminated the crime scene and once
00:42:44
you go from looking for two girls that are alive and well or or maybe injured or just lost to you now know you have
00:42:51
two murder victims mhm how quickly were you able to to secure the scene to make sure that it wasn't trampled all over
00:43:00
and his answer is once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene no I would surmise that Searchers did not
00:43:08
immediately know what they had come upon that's interesting because when we had the former prosecutor come out and I I
00:43:18
think this is a little irresponsible but whatever I'm irresponsible myself I'm I'm not I'm no saint captain but when
00:43:27
the former prosecutor came out and said that there were signatures left by the killer at the crime scene and and
00:43:33
specifically where the bodies were found and he said that he he would label that as three or four signatures and
00:43:42
then another person from law enforcement asked a very similar question provi once
00:43:48
provided with that information from the former prosecutor pretty much confirmed that that there would have been about
00:43:54
three or four different signatures now I've seen the public hears this and they go crazy they go crazy trying to figure
00:44:02
out what those signatures could be and of course a lot of people's minds go to something very bizarre that you would
00:44:08
see in some not so great thriller movie out there one of the things that that I saw that was speculated and and maybe
00:44:18
continues to be to this day was that the killer wrote a word or words at sever places in the crime scene and one that
00:44:29
gets a little difficult because they're Outdoors so where is he writing this did
00:44:34
he bring things with him to leave leave a note or more specifically I've seen it
00:44:41
discussed that it was one word in particular that was just written over and over again and to me that seems
00:44:48
very very much like a psychological Thriller Vita cheesy type movie thing here and what we do have though is we
00:44:57
have the sheriff who's saying look law enforcement got there as soon as we could obviously the Searchers found them
00:45:05
first but we got there as soon as we could and as soon as we were there it was a crime scene and it was secured and
00:45:10
we pushed everybody out of the area and he goes on to say that he would surmise that most of the Searchers were
00:45:19
not really aware of what they had come upon the Searchers coming upon two victims and not really understanding
00:45:27
what they've come upon kind of contradicts the idea that there was some kind of display made of the crime scene
00:45:36
yeah I think that if if you they were able to see writing all over the place one one you'd have to if if there was
00:45:43
writing the obvious spot that it would be would be on the victims or their clothing because you're outdoor I think
00:45:50
it's it's actually very telling that that whatever these signatures are probably most of the people people in
00:45:56
that search party would not recognize this type of stuff to be quote unquote a signature right and like you said
00:46:03
there's no there probably is not some bizarre display going on at the crime scene either if if we're to believe
00:46:13
these words to be fact then what that means to me is that someone probably spotted a body MH and then very quickly
00:46:24
told people not to I'm going to walk a little bit closer to confirm that I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing and we're
00:46:32
calling it in we're not we're not venturing into this area well based on the HLN documentary they were saying a
00:46:38
Searcher actually spotted them by zooming in you know like they were looking through their phone and zooming
00:46:46
in on the camera mhm so maybe they spotted them from a distance so they wouldn't be able to see the signatures
00:46:54
also if you're around around the creek bed you wouldn't be tall enough to see over the brush to actually see the
00:47:00
victims because they're kind of in a dip correct and often in these search parties you know it's still very early
00:47:10
on that they're looking for these girls they're looking for them on the second day when they're found less than 24
00:47:15
hours after they went missing MH so you might have a different speech that is given but often there are you know
00:47:23
everyone's instructed usually in these situations to if you see this then then behave this way if you see this behave
00:47:33
this way and you often especially when they believe that they're looking for a victim or for evidence which is not what
00:47:42
they would have believed at the time they would be instructed to not approach anything if you as a Searcher if you see
00:47:50
this do not approach the scene do not approach this item or this article you have said you recognize the voice on the
00:47:58
video this is this is probably the most scary SL haunting portion of these questions you have said you recognize
00:48:08
the voice on the video do you recognize it as a jail inmate other law enforcement team or person you know
00:48:16
outside your employment sphere and lesen B says I still have not been able to pin
00:48:22
it down in my 30 plusy year career or even as with most of us meaning law enforcement we have heard certain voices
00:48:31
but have difficulty in recalling exactly who it is well a couple thoughts right away is when they're asking the parents
00:48:39
about what they hear or did they recognize the voice how they point out how calm the individual is and I never
00:48:48
really thought about the energy that the person was using that this perpetrator was using but when you listen listen
00:48:55
back to it the energy is very calm and I really like the idea of people pointing
00:49:02
out when he says you guys down the hill it's not a command it's not angry it's very authority
00:49:12
figure or parental figure and I think that's very important when I hear guys down the hill and exactly the the
00:49:22
mannerism and the tone you're right it's very quick and to the point and instructional at the same time
00:49:32
I to me my mind jumps to somebody that's used to directing a a group of of children or a
00:49:41
group of young adults MH and my mind immediately jumps to teacher and I don't know why captain please don't anybody
00:49:50
ston me to death in the in the center of town here but my mind jumps to gym teacher I don't know why that's always
00:49:57
like popped in my head of of I I think it's really the tone and the mannerism of something that's kind of a laidback
00:50:05
quick to the point and instructional guys down the hill yeah quick to the point point no fak and cooking MC's like
00:50:13
a pound of bacon um I agree with you Jim teacher look into that aspect but I think you can broaden her your horizons
00:50:22
a little bit somebody that might have coached Little League baseball what I would like to know because the girls
00:50:29
were out of school that day and that's why they were out on the trail to begin with and I do not want emails from
00:50:37
people that look we got a lot of people that are teachers in our audience and our listeners a lot of them are
00:50:43
fantastic teachers I only want to know specifically to that that school system because you know Captain everything
00:50:51
changes from area to area right and even even on the calendar year for a school in particular but for that direct
00:51:01
community and that direct school system I would love to know because the girls were off of school that day were the
00:51:08
teachers off as well or was that a day where the teachers would have been working in some capacity but without
00:51:14
students next question the families of the deli victims have appeared on countless shows and internet videos for
00:51:21
interviews Libby's grandfather Mike Patty stated he called cop buddies and asked if they could ping Libby's phone
00:51:31
were you or one of your deputies the cop buddies he called some of you will remember that when the girls were
00:51:38
missing Mike Patty at some point I think when we again I'd have to refer to our old episodes but I think we put this on
00:51:46
our timeline like in the 6:00 hour of the day that they were missing could you could you look into their phones and
00:51:53
Les's answer is I would suggest he was referring to someone in law enforcement and it could have been even dispatch
00:52:02
initially the ultimate decision was a law enforcement decision so I think what to blz and be saying here is just
00:52:10
because it's a cop buddy doesn't mean that it has to be somebody at his Department that Mike Patty was reaching
00:52:16
out to Libby's grandmother Becky Patty with whom she lived and who is the mother of her biological father Derek
00:52:25
German stated during an interview there were countless cars at the trails that day not all of them looking for the
00:52:33
girls did the Patty family post on social media the girls were missing before contacting the sheriff's
00:52:41
department this is interesting because I would liked a better answer here it's I
00:52:47
do not recall but I know we were not immediately contacted because the family did not suspect anything negative and
00:52:53
were simply conducting their own search right so you're like me what I'd like to know and somebody from the
00:53:01
community probably could let me know was this information distributed through Facebook and were people reposting this
00:53:10
or sharing this with uh people in the community on social media from my understanding a couple things happened
00:53:19
one I believe that they were on the night news now some areas that's 11:00 or 10: p.m.
00:53:26
I believe they were on the nighttime news with hey we got a couple missing girls and we're still out here looking
00:53:33
for them Mike Patty in particular is is interviewed briefly in that statement that is released to the public via the
00:53:41
news I do believe that Mike Patty's family somebody in the family did put something on Facebook kind of calling to
00:53:50
action people to come help look for the girls so this this would be an easy way to get that information out to all of
00:53:58
your friends and family hey if you're available can you come and help us look for these girls we don't we don't think
00:54:03
anything terrible has happened here we just we know that they were dropped off near the uh moan and high bridge and the
00:54:11
trail system there we got a lot of ground to cover it's getting dark it's getting late it's getting cold all hands
00:54:18
on deck we need some people to help us look for these girls so I don't know exactly what was sent out but we have St
00:54:25
ments by the family that they were using those methods to try to rally some troops into helping them look and just
00:54:32
so we're clear do you remember what time they found the bodies well it was right
00:54:38
around noon the next day and do you know what time the search started that day on
00:54:44
the 14th I believe it was at 6:00 a.m. next question is who notified Anna Williams that her child Abby was missing
00:54:54
and when did that that notification take place his answer is I would have to reference earlier reported information
00:55:01
so we don't really get an answer there question it has been stated in a press conference that quote it was all over by
00:55:09
3:30 on February 13th end quote this statement was based on what information his answer evidence I do not recall a
00:55:20
specific time though but rather a timeline this is curious to me because it doesn't really answer the
00:55:30
question 100% it was all over by 3:30 on February 13th I see our timeline that we've put
00:55:40
together and I've seen everything else that's been brought up in this case and it does in fact look to me like this is
00:55:48
very likely the situation that they were abducted and killed in the same area in
00:55:55
a very short period of time we do know from statements from law enforcement in interviews and the documentary The
00:56:03
Bodies were found less than a quar mile away from where the bridge ended has it been determined the girls were killed
00:56:12
where they were found again this is a question that keeps kind of recycling through over the years answer yes based
00:56:20
on information known yes question why did you and the prosecutor choose to do an interview
00:56:27
with headline news HLN yet ISP Indiana State Police said there would not be a press conference this year again who is
00:56:37
leading the case the state police the county sheriff FBI or the County prosecutor you can see the confusion for
00:56:46
the public and the mixed signals so to speak expand on who runs what parts of the investigation who determines when
00:56:55
there's a press conference this is an interesting answer in a general sense the leading agency is
00:57:02
the agency who routinely patrols and responds to calls for police services in a given
00:57:09
jurisdiction so in this case in his professional opinion the crime occurred in the county of Carol County so they
00:57:19
are considered to be the lead agency his Sheriff's Department the state police the FBI the prosecutor's office and the
00:57:28
investigators from the prosecutor's office and other agencies are considered assistant agencies coming on board to
00:57:35
assist the Carroll County Sheriff's Department he does go on to say being a small agency we frequently rely on
00:57:42
larger agencies who have many more resources to help with investigations this is commonplace throughout the
00:57:50
United States smaller agencies will sometimes relinquish an investigation to a larger assisting agency such as the
00:57:58
state police but I feel strongly that since this crime occurred in the county I feel we are the lead but with many
00:58:06
partners additionally when decisions which we feel are major to the case are being looked at our investigative
00:58:15
partners are consulted like a huge Think Tank and we all reach a decision which we all agree upon next question the
00:58:25
public has heard for 4 years the investigation is one puzzle piece from being solved what is that one piece
00:58:33
specifically is it a name is it John Doe told me he killed the kids or are you looking for confirmation of what you
00:58:42
know John Doe was not at work he has a blue jacket he cut his hair on February 14th or I saw a guy with a bloody jacket
00:58:52
at 400 p.m. on February 13th at the gas station you are not giving the public a lot to work with yet no
00:59:00
arrest in 4 years aren't you worried about more victims is the suspect dead or incarcerated so that is why no press
00:59:10
conference or additional information is being released his answer is the person specifically responsible for Abby and
00:59:18
Libby's death our team of trained experienced and professional investigators will know that one piece
00:59:27
when they see it I think that's a very clever answer by Mr lesby there yeah definitely and I and I think he's right
00:59:34
if if they know more than we know and they're working this case as much as they're telling us that they are that
00:59:40
one piece when they have it they'll they'll recognize it immediately and they will act on that information as
00:59:47
soon as it's presented to them I get the feeling that they know who it is or have
00:59:51
a good idea of who it is I think they've got a lot of tips they've ruled I think people out
00:59:58
they've had a lot of people that the True Crime Community has said oh we need to look into this guy this guy just
01:00:05
created this murder this guy is a rapist this guy is a pedo in the area well all
01:00:11
their DNA would be on file I believe they have some form of DNA and it's not matching those people but also these
01:00:19
people are not matching the signatures the profile other things I think they have a small list of people maybe if
01:00:27
it's not just one that they're focused on it's a small list and I think some of them I keep hearing from Kelsey that
01:00:36
this will be solved one day and she said in the last interview I listened to her
01:00:41
she said something to the the point of that this individual will slip up and I also kind of heard that you you almost
01:00:49
get that feeling I don't know if it was said directly like that in the documentary but you get that feeling
01:00:54
from from law enforcement too and so that makes me wonder if they're like well if it's not one person that they
01:01:00
have a small list of people and they're waiting for something to slip up I think
01:01:06
based off of information that we currently have where we have the sheriff saying we have DNA we just don't know if
01:01:13
it belongs to the killer or not we have fingerprints we don't know if they belong to the killer or not what that
01:01:20
would tell me is that you can't really clear anybody 100% unless they have a rock solid Alibi for the time in
01:01:30
question right and based off of evidence they're other than than an alibi they're
01:01:36
not able to clear some of these people or potential suspects however you're exactly right
01:01:43
Captain what they're going to do even though they cannot clear a specific person they will
01:01:49
prioritize these individuals and they will put some on a high priority list and some on a lower priority list
01:01:56
because the people on the lower priority list they may have compared things with
01:02:02
that individual and things at the crime scene and such and said you know what we
01:02:07
can't clear him but he's not a high priority for us because of a and C he doesn't fit exactly what we're
01:02:16
looking for because of a and C maybe it is his DNA doesn't match any that we found maybe it is that his fingerprints
01:02:22
do not match any that were found and even if we don't know if we have either of these things of the killer we do
01:02:29
suspect that we would find this person's fingerprints Andor their DNA at the scene and we don't so we make them a low
01:02:37
priority suspect I think the problem with the signatures is we got to take that and
01:02:45
look to it for future evidence because look this this guy let's say he is a serial killer there's very likely
01:02:55
that these might be his first two murder victims he may have committed some other
01:03:00
crimes along the way they usually ramp up to this but if these were his first two
01:03:08
murders then these signatures at the murder scene may not be signatures that would be present at at any of the other
01:03:16
crimes he ever committed or thought about committing and so these signatures are more something that we would use for
01:03:23
a future murder that oh if you saw these three or four signatures then law enforcement might believe that it's the
01:03:32
same guy I do like that statement by by them saying those same words that I just
01:03:37
used if if law enforcement recognize these same three or four signatures at a future murder we would probably
01:03:44
recognize immediately that it's the same guy that makes me believe that these have to be fairly specific signatures
01:03:52
yeah now signatures themselves can be very simplistic they don't have to be these you know crazy wild things it
01:04:01
could be something posing the bodies is a signature okay posing the bodies could
01:04:08
be mean something as little as they face them in the same direction or laid the victims out so and put their feet
01:04:17
together and then their arms over top of their chest it doesn't have to be anything grandiose like you would see in
01:04:23
Hannibal the TV show it it's it could be something as simple as they were posed in that manner they were both placed
01:04:31
face down and the the detectives have determined that this was they didn't fall that way that he chose to
01:04:38
manipulate the crime scene and place them that way and I don't want to get too much into the signature aspect of it
01:04:45
because these are child victims and and I I have some very strong suspicions of what I believe those signatures to be
01:04:54
and maybe we'll talk about that sometime on off the Record or another show but um
01:05:00
the thing I keep going back to Captain is what doug Carter says when he's speaking directly to the
01:05:07
killer around the two-year anniversary when he says I can promise you that those two girls are not in the
01:05:18
same way that you left them that day meaning I I feel like he manipulated the crime scene specifically the the
01:05:26
victim's bodies in some way and that's Doug Carter and he says that at probably one of the most emotional parts of his
01:05:34
press conference and I think that's his way of saying whatever image you have of your
01:05:39
victims in your head that's burned into your brain of how you left them that day
01:05:45
and the things you chose to do with the victims and the ways that you chose to manipulate the crime scene none of that
01:05:51
exist anymore that those victims are not the same way that you left them they're
01:05:57
not your victims anymore you don't hold any kind of power over over them or whatever
01:06:04
degrading actions you took that no longer exist you've not won we we will find you yeah which is interesting
01:06:13
because they're saying that the crime was sexual but they're not saying if there was assault or rape we would
01:06:22
assume if there was we'd have some kind of seen DNA but they're saying this is about
01:06:30
power and about control and that was said in the the two-year press conference so by letting them know that
01:06:39
this is not your crime scene anymore you don't have control over this we we gave
01:06:44
the victims back the power next question can you elaborate about your reference to this case as having a twist that you
01:06:54
have never seen before is it something more than Libby's audio recording and videotaping of their as salant or asants
01:07:04
and his answer is one of the main twist is that Carol County has had a high success rate of finding missing persons
01:07:13
for this case to have the initial outcome was nothing we even as seasoned veterans
01:07:22
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