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GameChanger [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:43
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always a man that puts his pants on two legs at a time he is the
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business everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music]
00:03:42
[Applause] [Music] crime [Music] Joshua Ryan made the following statement during a US District Court Hearing in
00:04:11
San Diego in 2005 the first time I met Kevin Cooper I was 8 years old and he slipped my throat
00:04:21
he hit me with a hatchet and put a hole in my skull he stabbed me twice which broke my
00:04:28
ribs and collapsed one lung I lived only because I stuck four fingers in my neck to slow the bleeding
00:04:36
but I was too weak to move I laid there for 11 hours looking at my mother who was right beside
00:04:45
me I know now he came through the sliding glass door and attacked my dad first he was lying on the bed and was
00:04:53
struck in the dark without warning with the hatchet and a knife he was hit many times because
00:05:01
there was a lot of blood on the wall and on his side of the bed my mother screamed and Cooper came
00:05:08
around the bed and started hitting her somehow my dad was able to struggle between the bed and the closet but
00:05:16
Cooper bludgeoned my father to death with the knife and Hatchet stabbing him 26 times and axing him
00:05:25
11 one of the blows severed his finger and it landed in the closet my mother tried to get away but he
00:05:32
caught her at the bottom of the bed and he stabbed her 25 times and asked her seven all of us kids were drawn to the
00:05:43
room by my mom's screams Jessica was killed in the doorway with five ax blows and 46
00:05:50
stabs I won't say how many times my best friend Chris was stabbed and AED not because it's not important but because I
00:05:59
don't want a hurt his family in any way and they are here after Cooper killed everyone and
00:06:06
thought he had killed me he went over to my sister and lifted her shirt and Drew things on her stomach
00:06:13
with the knife then he walked down the hallway opened the refrigerator and had a
00:06:22
beer I guess killing so many people can make a man thirsty [Music] Franklin Douglas Ryan grew up on the
00:06:41
outskirts of De Moine Iowa he grew up to be tall strong and a well-liked man he became a marine and then went on to be
00:06:50
an MP a u military police officer by the way he went by the name Doug so we will
00:06:56
just call him Doug uh Peggy and Ryan was born Peggy and Howell she got her first
00:07:03
of many horses that she would own in her lifetime when she was just 12 years old
00:07:08
horses were her passion and she would be gifted several horses from her twice divorced mother this is Dr Mary Howell
00:07:17
Peggy was always strong and athletic and she grew up to be 5' 8 in tall Peggy loved to train horses and enter them in
00:07:26
competitions uh this is near her mother's Chiropractic practice in Pennsylvania not far from
00:07:34
Lancaster as a teen she aspired to become a veterinarian but her mother persuaded her to follow in her footsteps
00:07:41
so just like her mother Peggy attended the Palmer School of Chiropractics in Davenport Iowa she graduated in
00:07:49
1963 and then she went to work for her mother at the chiropractic clinic that she owned located in Santa Ana 3 and 1/2
00:07:58
years later later Peggy ventured out on her own opening up her own clinic in Santa Ana and in 1970 Peggy an met Doug
00:08:06
Ryan at an alumni reunion at Palmer and not too much later the two were married at a church in Corona delmare yeah
00:08:16
they'd be married December 20th 1970 eventually the two newlyweds decided to open up their own practice
00:08:23
together this is in Olympia Washington after relocating Peggy bought two hor while it turns out that Olympia was not
00:08:32
a great spot for the couple As far as their Chiropractic business or their equestrian hobby would be concerned it
00:08:40
was a great stop along life's big adventure for their family though because their daughter Jessica Kate Ryan
00:08:46
was born in Olympia on November 9th 1972 so their practice is failing at this point the Ryan accepted Peggy's
00:08:56
mother's offer to join her success uccessful and very lucrative Chiropractic Clinic back in Santa Ana
00:09:03
this is in the mid 1973 so the Ryan bought a home in Santa Ana this is with a big backyard big
00:09:10
enough to hold their two horses and they contined to purchase more horses now Captain I'm not certain here but I think
00:09:18
at some point they got up to like five or six horses in their backyard that's a lot of
00:09:23
horeshit well the neighbors are going to start complaining about all these horses
00:09:29
about them keeping them in their backyard probably because of the smell well this would be this would prompt the
00:09:35
eventual move to Chino Hills California so they find a Hilltop Ranch this is directly above Peggy's mother's house in
00:09:42
Chino Hills it came on the market M Doug and Peggy Ryan sold their home in Santa
00:09:47
Ana and they bought this new house now Peggy noted to friends that the property came with a gorgeous barn and a huge
00:09:54
riding ring the three-bedroom two bath house featured is sunken living room and a family room and a jacuzzi in the patio
00:10:03
off of the master bedroom jacuzzi so this secluded area of Chino Hills that Doug and Peggy Ryan uh moved into with
00:10:11
their 2-year-old daughter Jessica and their infant son Joshua this fulfilled a leld dream for Peggy Ryan joining a
00:10:19
small close-knit community this is all the community is of Arabian horse breeders who operated adjoining or close
00:10:28
by ranches so this is horsee moving to be near other horse people I think they're called centaurs their neighbors
00:10:36
refer to their ranches along Old English Road as the Arabian Horse Center of Southern California from their Hilltop
00:10:44
house the Ryan looked out over a maze of white fences and their neighbors ranches
00:10:50
in the Ryan Stables were more than a dozen white Arabian show horses the house was located at 2943 English Place
00:10:58
Chino Hills California and unfortunately it was going to be the location of a set
00:11:04
of Horrid murders Saturday June 4th 1983 by now the Ryan's daughter Jessica was 10 years old and their son Josh was 8
00:11:13
years old MH there were not many boys in this neighborhood the same age as Josh but there was one boy who had become
00:11:21
very good friends with Josh and this is 11-year-old Chris Hughes Chris and Josh had gone trick-or-treating together they
00:11:30
were very close Christopher Hughes was almost 5 foot tall and he had just completed the fifth grade Christopher
00:11:38
was a good student he had lots of friends he was on the swim team and he had a room full of trophies to prove it
00:11:45
he liked Star Wars and on this Saturday after an invite from his friend Josh He begged his mother that he be allowed to
00:11:53
stay the night at the Ryan's family home she agreed but told Christopher to to remember that he needed to be home in
00:12:01
time in the morning for church Christopher's mother watched the two boys ride away on their bicycles toward
00:12:07
Josh's home now that evening the Ryan with their guest Christopher they attended a potluck dinner with about a
00:12:15
hundred other equestrian Enthusiast that's hard to say equestrian Enthusiast and their Enthusiast and their families
00:12:24
at the Chino Hill home of George and Valerie blade this was pretty big part of yeah and again all horse people it
00:12:34
was a bob affair they arrived to the gathering with a bottle of pink sh that night at the party the blad son
00:12:43
Jas Jason pleaded with his parents to allow him to stay the night as well at the Ryan's home but he was not allowed
00:12:51
to because I guess like their grandmother was in town and visiting right so around 9:30 p.m. the Ryan and
00:12:59
Chris returned to the Ryan split level home after a while the children went to sleep the boys were sleeping in sleeping
00:13:07
bags on the floor in Josh's room and Jessica was in her room Doug Ryan watched some television before joining
00:13:15
his wife in bed probably about 11:00 p.m. so we have just a real quick recap we have the father the mother the
00:13:24
daughter which is older and then we have the son and then his friend yeah so the
00:13:31
daughter Jessica would be 10 years old right Josh is 8 years old and his friend Christopher is 11 the next morning
00:13:39
Christopher's mother Maryanne Hughes she became concerned because remember he's supposed to come home so they can go to
00:13:46
church in the morning he doesn't come home so she called the Ryan residents a few times but only got busy signals so
00:13:55
shortly after 9:00 a.m. Mrs Hughes went to the Ry home she noticed that the barn
00:14:01
was closed and it didn't look to her like the horses had been fed or let out or whatever it is you're supposed to do
00:14:07
with horses I I'm not going to pretend to know what well let's just assume that they need to be fed in the morning I
00:14:13
have dogs I feed them and let them out in the morning so I'm guessing horses are the same uh this is her account of
00:14:20
the um situation that the barn looked to have been closed no activity that morning that she could see uh she only
00:14:28
saw the Ryan's truck at the house they had a station wagon as well but she did not see the station wagon she knocked on
00:14:36
the door several times I there was no answer at about 11:30 a.m. Mr Hughes went to the Ryan home to investigate and
00:14:45
Mr Hughes went to the kitchen door looked inside tried the door but it was locked he continued around the outside
00:14:52
of the house until he reached the sliding glass door leading to the Ryan's master bedroom he looked inside the
00:14:58
glass GL door and he saw the body of his son he also saw the bodies of Doug and Peggy Ryan and Josh Ryan lying on the
00:15:08
floor between his mother and Christopher now apparently and when this is happening MH
00:15:17
so Mr Hughes is trying to get into this sliding glass door he he can't get into the door he can see Josh in there and
00:15:26
Josh kind of moves he's the only body that he sees move inside and he's trying to tell Josh I need you to get up and
00:15:35
unlock this door yeah but we would later learn Josh has sustained too many injuries he he can't get up eventually
00:15:43
Mr Hughes goes around to another door this is back to the door that's at the kitchen and he he kicks in the door and
00:15:51
then he goes inside and he finds he finds the bodies of of all five of these people
00:15:59
now four of them are dead including his son and he finds Josh who is very bloodied and very weak so he starts
00:16:08
asking or trying to ask Josh hey who did this but Josh's throat has been slit right mhm so he can't tell him yeah he
00:16:17
tries to talk but he he's like only moving his lips there's nothing coming out Mr Hughes tried to use the phone the
00:16:24
telephone in the house to call for help but the phone did work so he had to drive to a neighbor's house seeking help
00:16:33
the police arrived and Doug Peggy Chris and Jessica were pronounced dead Josh was found lying on his side his eyes
00:16:42
were open but he was unable to speak or move he was unresponsive Josh was flown by
00:16:48
helicopter to Loma Linda University hospital and thankfully Josh would survive now we're going to go through
00:16:57
the medical examiner findings this is going to be this will be difficult to hear so some of you may want to skip
00:17:05
forward a few minutes CU we're going to turn down the volume of the mics uh well this is going to be
00:17:11
gruesome stuff here uh so Doug Ryan suffered at least 37 separate wounds some inflicted by an axe or Hatchet and
00:17:21
some were stab wounds this is the father Yes five chop wounds to Mr Ryan skull were in a quote tight pattern indicating
00:17:31
his skull was stationary when the blows were delivered the blows appeared to have been administered in Rapid
00:17:37
succession within a second or two as Mr Ryan was kneeling by the side of the bed
00:17:43
one blow administered to Mr Ryan skull was consistent with being struck by the blunt side of a hatchet or axe causing a
00:17:52
depressed skull fracture where the bone was pushed into his head Mr Ryan's right
00:17:58
middle finger was amputated by a chopping blow his severed finger was found on the floor inside the Ryan's
00:18:05
bedroom closet another chop wound cut clear through the bone of his right forearm one Stab Wound penetrated his
00:18:13
sternum entering his heart one Stab Wound punctured his lung there were slicing injuries to the right side of Mr
00:18:22
Ryan's cheek and before he died Mr Ryan was stabbed on the left side of his neck
00:18:28
severing his cored artery and cutting his trachea so before we move on real quick what that means is we're seeing
00:18:37
obvious signs of defensive wounds here right so he's attacked presumably they're surprised in the middle of the
00:18:44
night but he is able to at least get up and attempt to defend himself and I say that I believe that these are defens of
00:18:52
wounds because we're seeing a several wounds to his hands and his forearms almost as if he's putting them up in
00:19:00
defense of himself mhm now the one thing that I think is important here too is the the wounds to his skull which they
00:19:09
titled as a tight pattern would almost indicate that they are made in Rapid succession by the same person by the
00:19:17
same hand same weapon same individual inflicting these wounds Peggy Ryan suffered 32 separate
00:19:26
identified wounds these wounds were primarily on her head chest and neck areas a series of three chopping wounds
00:19:33
to the right side of Mrs Ryan's head were consistent with having been administered while she was standing Mrs
00:19:40
Ryan had a defensive wound on her right hand Jessica Ryan the daughter suffered 46 separate identified wounds consisting
00:19:49
of a combination of chopping and stabbing or incision wounds Jessica suffered a stab wound to her neck the
00:19:57
wound resulted in massive bleeding unconsciousness from this wound due to Rapid blood loss would have occurred in
00:20:04
as little as 30 to 60 seconds and would have been fatal in a couple of minutes M
00:20:10
three stab wounds to Jessica's chest were near each other suggesting the wounds were delivered in Rapid
00:20:16
succession the wounds were consistent with having been delivered while Jessica was in the position in which she was
00:20:23
found Jessica suffered a grouping of carving injuries on her chest most apparently occurred after Jessica had
00:20:30
stopped bleeding so after she had already passed postmortem yes the injuries were consistent with a an ice
00:20:38
pick a nail or an all having been used to inflict these injuries these injuries were primarily inflicted while Jessica
00:20:46
was in the position in which she was found the position in which she died M okay so a little more information here
00:20:55
it looks like she suffered early on in the attack she suffered a wound that was great enough powerful enough for her to
00:21:02
be knocked unconscious because of the rapid blood loss mhm which she would die from that so a lot of these wounds that
00:21:11
she suffered we can assume where she suffered these wounds after she was already passing away as she was dying as
00:21:21
she was unconscious so she's we're not going to see as many defensive wounds on her because she didn't have the
00:21:28
opportunity the chance to defend herself right now one thing that I think's interesting here though Captain is we
00:21:36
are seeing the suggestion of a possible third weapon being used here so some of these injuries and wounds the medical
00:21:46
examiner suggesting were produced by a knife mhm and then we have other wounds that he's suggesting were produced by a
00:21:54
hatchet or an ax and then we have wounds to the girl girl that suggests that they
00:21:59
were they were created by an ice pick or a nail something to that effect but different from the knife and the hatchet
00:22:08
right now Christopher Hughes suffered 25 separate wounds a chopping wound to his
00:22:14
right wrist went through the bone of his forearm almost severing his hand from his wrist wow Chris also suffered a
00:22:21
chopping injury to his right hand the injuries were consistent with defensive wounds several of Christopher's wounds
00:22:28
were inflicted after the boy had passed Joshua Ryan the little boy that somehow survived his injuries included including
00:22:36
a hatchet wound to the top of his head a stab wound to his throat and a hatchet wound near his left ear now the coroner
00:22:45
this is Dr root who performed the autopsies believed that the injuries could have been inflicted quickly within
00:22:52
one minute for each of the victims he suspected each victim died within minute minutes of being attacked our survivor
00:23:01
will be able to report his limited memory of the murders this is a breakdown of Josh's eyewitness report
00:23:09
immediately after his rescue there was a clinical social worker at the hospital that interviewed the boy that afternoon
00:23:16
in the emergency room Josh was unable to speak he pointed at words and numbers on
00:23:23
this chart that were provided to him by the social worker right he's going to used this method to try to tell the
00:23:30
social worker what had happened what he had witnessed during the attack most importantly what he points out is that
00:23:37
three white men were in the house at the time of the attacks well like you said the coiner thinks that these attacks
00:23:44
happen within a minute of each other mhm so that that'd be one individual moving
00:23:50
pretty rapidly or suggesting that there's more than one attacker right so the the social worker says you know I
00:23:57
asked Josh how many people were there and Josh pointed to the number three he said I asked him if there if they were
00:24:06
male he pointed to yes yeah now I don't want to say that you're wrong but I do believe that when they said um how many
00:24:15
people were there that he actually pointed to three and four I mean that's just what I heard he also asked the boy
00:24:21
if the men were black and Josh pointed to the word no so this man added that Josh said that he had seen the men
00:24:31
before but did not know them now let's add this fact in here so we have San Bernardino County Sheriff's deputy this
00:24:39
is Irvin Dale Sharp he would later testify that he interviewed the boy twice on June 5th the same day sharp
00:24:49
said that the first interview took place in the emergency room and lasted about 15 minutes in that interview Josh Josh
00:24:57
said said that three white men were in the house when the killings occurred but in a subsequent
00:25:03
interview this is an hour later the boy identified the three men as possibly Hispanic each between 18 and 20 years
00:25:12
old possibly driving a low rider Chevrolet Impala and had been at his house on June 4th sharp later testified
00:25:21
that the youth told him the attack on his family took place between 4: and 5:00 a.m. there is thought that this
00:25:30
time frame would not have been consistent with the coroner's finding well he's 8 years old right right and
00:25:36
then on top of that he's been he has a head wound and a Severe you know slashing of
00:25:43
his throat mhm but I just wonder how much the head wound is causing these inaccuracies Well here here's the other
00:25:52
thing too you know so the coroner's finding the coroner suspects that the attacks likely took place a couple hours
00:25:58
earlier than what Josh is saying he believes the attacks took place 3 weeks after the slangs the boy was released
00:26:07
from the University Medical Center and left for the East Coast where he was going to be staying with his uncle now
00:26:16
later a custody of Josh would be granted to his grandmother Dr Mary [Music] Howell
00:26:29
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00:28:38
Captain I think we should probably introduce Kevin Cooper to everybody and you know we have the situation here
00:28:45
where we've titled this episode Kevin Cooper and other than Joshua's statement to the court we've not heard his name
00:28:54
yet and this case puts us in a difficult situation doesn't it Captain because we
00:28:59
usually try to title these episodes uh the victim's name MH because the victims are often forgotten about in these true
00:29:09
crime stories here we have Kevin Cooper who as you heard Josh's statement he says
00:29:17
killed my family but the reason why we title it Kevin Cooper is there is some question about this man's guilt and what
00:29:27
we really wanted to present to everybody is the facts of the case so everybody can form their own opinion is Kevin
00:29:35
Cooper guilty of having killed this family and after reviewing all of the evidence and after looking at this story
00:29:43
you presented this case to me and I had not heard of this case which I found a little weird because once I started
00:29:49
diving into it it seems to be a fairly popular case uh especially in the California area but after you told me
00:29:57
about this case and we're looking into it you know what kept running through my mind is that this is you know the the
00:30:03
famous show making a murderer mhm this this should have this should have been about Kevin Cooper um and I know I'm not
00:30:11
going to uh win a lot of people over with this statement but looking at this case um I think one could present
00:30:21
evidence to look stepen Avery looks a lot more guilty to me than Kevin Cooper but okay let's go through let's
00:30:28
introduce Kevin Cooper and then we will try to get to some of the evidence here Captain so Kevin Cooper was adopted as a
00:30:35
baby he suffered an abusive and troubled childhood in Pennsylvania he would run away from home at a very young age later
00:30:44
he said that this was to escape beatings the trouble he got into as a child involved shoplifting and marijuana
00:30:51
charges he never graduated from high school Uh Kevin Cooper really got into trouble this was in in Pennsylvania when
00:30:58
he stole a car from a teenage girl now apparently apparently the girl interrupted him while he was committing
00:31:08
this um he was committing some form of residential burglary okay she interrupts him committing this crime he then steals
00:31:17
the car but he he also took the girl with him and Kevin Cooper would later admit forcing the 17-year-old girl into
00:31:26
the vehicle now she says that he also hit her he threatened her he threatened to kill her and that he had raped her he
00:31:35
flatly denies hitting or raping her do we have any evidence of this um I don't know all I have is his statement where
00:31:44
he admits to stealing the car and forcing her into the vehicle I think this is a he said she said situation I
00:31:52
don't think there was a lot of evidence to point either direction and then you have a guy that is willing to admit to
00:31:59
some of the charges uh you know right unfortunately I think probably should have been
00:32:05
charged with kidnapping a minor but regardless of the charges he is going to do time for this Cooper would also be
00:32:13
arrested charged and convicted several times uh these are for theft related offenses he escaped from custody in
00:32:21
Pennsylvania numerous times then he goes to California in California Cooper is arrested charged and sentenced to state
00:32:29
prison for two counts of residential burglary now how old is he at this time um well this would have been in
00:32:37
1982 MH and this is all this is in Los Angeles County Cooper lied about his identity uh his background and his
00:32:47
criminal history by using the false name of David Troutman now on June 1st of 1983 Cooper was transferred to a min
00:32:57
minimum security portion of the prison in which he was being housed 2 days before the murders he escaped on foot
00:33:04
from the California Institute for men well so I just want to get this clear he's actually serving a sentence a
00:33:11
four-year sentence but under the name David Troutman correct yeah that's interesting
00:33:19
he lied about his identity and this it would make him appear so he got a pretty light sentence
00:33:27
and that being because of two things he lies about his identity because he's escaped from prison in Pennsylvania one
00:33:36
and he has a lengthy criminal history of of these you know some most of these are
00:33:41
pretty minor charges but he has a lengthy criminal history where he probably would have faced considerable
00:33:47
more amount of time there right and he's he's then shipped off to this minimum security portion of the prison this is
00:33:57
when he escapes from prison and it's just a couple days before this family is found murdered so when he escapes from
00:34:04
prison I mean this is just he just kind of walks through a field like runs away from a group of people or something do
00:34:12
we have much information on this well okay and this is why I say that this is the case that should have been featured
00:34:21
on making a murder not because I you know that's not a spoiler alert where I think Kevin Cooper is innocent what I
00:34:29
mean by that is the problem with this case and when you try to research this case is it gets presented in some
00:34:38
different lights and it depends on who you're getting your information from because there are some people out there
00:34:44
that are pretty hardcore that Kevin Cooper is innocent there's some other people on the opposite side of the fence
00:34:50
that he's very guilty and then there's some people these are the ones that I don't like to get any information from
00:34:57
because I don't feel that I can trust it there are some people that I believe that are just so much against the death
00:35:04
penalty and because Kevin Cooper would eventually be on death row for these murders I think that they skew the
00:35:11
information a little bit so some people would have you believe that his escape from this prison is as simple as he
00:35:20
finds a hole in the fence he walks up to it he goes through the hole and walks away
00:35:27
peace out yeah uh the hole in the fence P portion seems to be pretty true what doesn't seem to be true is
00:35:36
that he just kind of you know mosied on down the road and and walked to Chino Hills right the the reality is that he
00:35:46
did climb through this hole in the fence but he goes and he hides out in some like lumber yard and he waits for the
00:35:54
sun to go down because he's going to need to flee after dark he doesn't want to be seen and mind you he's wearing all
00:36:01
of his prison Garb he looks like somebody that just walked out of the prison right so he he's going to wait
00:36:10
till till Sundown and during the cover of Darkness he's going to go to this Chino uh Chino Hills sorry and he finds
00:36:20
this vacant house this house is owned by a couple of people uh Larry lease and these brothers Roger and Kermit Lang own
00:36:29
this house now some of the information out there will refer to this home as a an abandoned house this could not be
00:36:38
further from the truth this was a home that was being used these men would use this home this home was completely
00:36:44
outfitted and they actually rented it out from time to time so this was not an abandoned house he happened to find a
00:36:51
home that was empty you know had no no people staying in it right and he decides to stay there and make it his
00:36:59
Hideout so we'll refer to it as The Hideout house because that's kind of what it is he's on the run from the law
00:37:07
and he's hiding out at this house while he's there you know he's doing typical things that you would do throughout your
00:37:13
day he's you know using the restroom uh taking a shower he did say that he slept
00:37:19
that night the first night in one of the beds however all of the bedrooms have Windows he was concerned that somebody
00:37:27
would see him through one of the windows so he started sleeping inside the closet
00:37:34
of the bedroom while he was there he was you know he found beer and other things
00:37:39
to drink while he was there he he was smoking cigarettes now the key thing about this house though this house is
00:37:46
down the hill and it's actually nearest to the Ryan house right this is just 126
00:37:53
yards away now that should give you some idea of what kind of neighborhood we're
00:37:59
dealing with this is the nearest home and it's more than a football field away yeah but not much more than a football
00:38:05
field so Cooper slept in the closet of the bedroom of a bedroom that was nearest the garage there was a window by
00:38:14
a fireplace inside this home and that that window from that window you could get a very good view of the Ryan home
00:38:21
the house had two telephones and Cooper called Yolanda Jackson and Diane Williams from the house asking
00:38:30
them for help these are old friends of his they both decline now the telephone records would later show that the two
00:38:38
calls that two calls were made from the house to the uh Los Angeles area telephone number of Yolanda Jackson the
00:38:47
first call lasted 110 minutes must have been a good conversation uh this beginning on June 3rd at 12 127 a.m. and
00:38:58
the second call lasted 4 minutes beginning at 2:26 a.m. the same morning two calls were also made from the house
00:39:06
to Diane Williams who was in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania the first call lasted 3 minutes beginning on June 3rd at 11:46
00:39:14
a.m. and the second lasted 34 minutes beginning on June 4th at 7:53 p.m. Diane Williams told Cooper that she did not
00:39:23
have any money that she could give him now according to Cooper he decided to leave the house after this phone call
00:39:32
the final call was only an hour or so before the Ryan and Chris Hughes left the blade house from that potluck dinner
00:39:40
right the party to return to their home okay so there are there's some documents out there there's websites out
00:39:50
there dedicated to this case and a lot of times they spend a lot of time presenting evidence that that Cooper was
00:39:58
staying at the home before the murders I think that's a big waste of everybody's
00:40:03
time he admits to staying at the home before the murder there's no question about that right so we don't need to
00:40:09
pour through that evidence we have enough evidence in these actual murders that we're going to have to pour through
00:40:14
so what you're saying is according to Cooper he was at the house so there is no debating that yeah we we won't debate
00:40:21
that according to his own words he was at this home nearest the murder house about but that doesn't mean that you
00:40:30
were the murderer well correct but according to his own words he was there and left about 8 sometime between 800
00:40:37
and 8:30 that night the Ryans would have returned to their home around 9:30 to 10:00 that night then going to bed and
00:40:45
being attacked and murdered sometime during that night so question where is Cooper gone Cooper says that he had
00:40:53
planned all along to go to Mexico and this might be the truth because we know that Cooper checked into a hotel in
00:41:01
Tiana this is around 400 p.m. on Sunday June 5th 1983 using the false name of Angel
00:41:10
Jackson so from Tijana Cooper made his way to inata Mexico where on June 9th he met Owen and Angelica handy he
00:41:21
introduced himself as Angel Jackson and he asked them for a job he was going to go work for them on their boat the
00:41:29
handies then set sail for San Francisco and Cooper posing as Angel Jackson went with them during this time handy the
00:41:37
handies saw Cooper in possession of numerous items later identified as having been taken from the vacant house
00:41:45
nearest the Ryan's home they stopped at various places along their way to San Francisco Cooper stayed on the boat so
00:41:54
when when the handies would par park the boat they would they would get dock the
00:41:58
boat I guess you should say yeah they would get off the boat they would go on Shore they probably presumably going out
00:42:04
to eat shopping whatever they're doing he does not get off the boat at any of these stops MH he's laying low let's say
00:42:12
I'm on a boat then they decide to go to Santa Barbara for like three maybe four days on July 30th
00:42:22
1983 uh Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department responded to a call for assistance of an attempted rape on a
00:42:29
boat that was docked next to the Handy's boat in Pelican Pelican Cove the 26-year-old female victim reported that
00:42:38
a man she identified as Kevin Cooper attempted to rape her at knife Point Cooper tried to flee when the
00:42:45
authorities came to the dock to arrest him the sheriff's observed Cooper throw an object into the water before he Dove
00:42:53
off the Handy's boat swam to a dinghy and and started to row for sure the sheriff's recovered a knife from the
00:43:00
water where Cooper attempted his unsuccessful Escape he was arrested so let's break this down very quickly
00:43:07
because if if you pour over every single minute detail we're going to be here for
00:43:13
days so a summary of what what's wrong with that of what we've covered well you're saying I smell no you smell fine
00:43:21
it's uh thank there's not a whole lot of ammo in the garage fridge if you know what I mean all right
00:43:29
so let's break down what we've covered so far four people are murdered in the middle of the night inside the Ryan home
00:43:37
one little boy 8-year-old Josh he survives survives he gives a description of three men all either Caucasian or
00:43:46
maybe Hispanic as being in the home during the murders police would later learn that an escaped convict Kevin
00:43:55
Cooper was hi fighting out in the home nearest the murder house for 2 days leading up to the murders he says he
00:44:01
fled to Mexico and law enforcement is going to say yes he fled to Mexico but before he did that he killed those four
00:44:08
people well why did he do that what's his motive well he's an escaped convict he needs to steal money and their car to
00:44:16
get out of Dodge so we know the car was stolen right now there's been this is this is one thing that you
00:44:26
and I have spoke about multiple times on this show there are so every report I've
00:44:32
come across never mentions anything being stolen from the Ryan home nothing ever mentions you know in fact there's
00:44:40
some reports that state outwardly State nothing was taken from the home we know the car was taken but you and I've like
00:44:48
I said we've talked about this before unless you have a running inventory of everything inside the home I don't know
00:44:56
that we can say with certainty that nothing was stolen from the home that's right I mean if these if one if the
00:45:03
husband or wife came home with $500 cash in their purse or pocket that day we wouldn't know that yeah but and also
00:45:12
think about how many times you come in the garage every week and guitars come in and out and instruments coming in and
00:45:18
out you probably notice it sometimes but you couldn't tell me what was different
00:45:23
no exactly and that's what I think I don't think anybody can point out with 100% certainty that nothing was stolen
00:45:30
from the home I completely agree with you now what about the car we know the car was stolen where was the car found
00:45:37
the car was eventually found in Long Beach California so if you went Long Beach California and then onto
00:45:46
Tijana it's a little more than 4 and a half hours by car from the murder house so this actually leaves enough time for
00:45:55
Cooper to commit the murders drive to Long Beach and then escape to Mexico and still check into the hotel on June 5th
00:46:04
at 400 p.m. so you're saying there's a chance well we also need to discuss quickly how the police got on to Cooper
00:46:12
because we have a weird situation here Captain don't we where this situation they they are looking for
00:46:20
Kevin Cooper it's not like he's arrested for this attempted rape charge and then
00:46:25
they back into evidence pointing that he committed these murders what actually would happen go ahead well hold on
00:46:32
technically they're looking for David Troutman looking for Kevin Cooper using the Alias possibly using the Alias of
00:46:41
Troutman the thing here though what's weird is they kind of they find some evidence to back into this thought that
00:46:48
Kevin Cooper's the one that committed these murders and it's it might be considered Loosey Goosey but like we
00:46:56
talked about what is a coincidence when we're talking about these cases is it evidence or is it coincidence right so
00:47:03
the situation is this they find a bloody footprint bloody shoe print I should say
00:47:11
at the home at the murder scene mhm this is believed to be from a type of shoe called a
00:47:18
proad now at this vacant home nearest the Ryan's house they find Loose to tobacco and it's believed that this was
00:47:29
roll right brand tobacco well why is that significant it's significant because this is the
00:47:36
type of tobacco that was given out for free to inmates of the prisons at the time the way that the system was set up
00:47:45
back then was this if you had money in your account you could buy whatever brand of cigarettes you prefer to smoke
00:47:52
right but to keep you got to keep these guys um orderly you know you don't want pure
00:47:58
chaos there people killing each other over cigarettes maybe we do so what they would do is they would hand out this
00:48:04
cheap loose tobacco and you could roll your own cigarettes MH well it's believed that Kevin Cooper would often
00:48:14
roll his own cigarettes with this roll right brand of tobacco provided to him for free at the prison so what does it
00:48:21
have to do with the shoe print well the shoe print the pro kids were SHO that were issued to prisoners mhm so they
00:48:29
have these two items that they find one at the crime scene one at the what I've been calling The Hideout house there's
00:48:37
also a question though where's this one footprint found the footprint that I there was there were several shoe prints
00:48:45
that are discussed in this case the one that I'm discussing right now is one that was found on a sheet inside of the
00:48:53
home of the Ryan's home so so they have some evidence pointing them to a possible prisoner or somebody that
00:49:02
would have you know would have this free tobacco from a prison would be wearing shoes that are issued at a prison so
00:49:08
their thought is well let's let's check to see if there's any people that have been recently escaped from prison that's
00:49:16
where they come up with this Troutman or Cooper as their possible suspect so they
00:49:23
have this situation where they had they think they're looking for the murderer and they think they know who the
00:49:29
murderer is they find him down uh in Santa Barbara after this alleged alleged attempted rape a local citizen
00:49:39
discovered a hatchet this was on June 5th 1983 on the side of English Road this is the only paved Road leading from
00:49:49
the Ryan home out of the immediate area the hatchet was covered with blood stains uh the head of the hatchet was
00:49:56
covered by dried blood and it had human hairs on it as well some of the hairs were consistent with those of Doug and
00:50:05
Josh Ryan now the Dr Irving root who performed the autopsies concluded that the hatchet could have inflicted The
00:50:15
Chopping wounds suffered by the victims MH well it's believed that this Hatchet came from The Hideout house H why
00:50:25
because like I said those men would rent out this home and we have the previous tenant saying that look when I lived
00:50:34
there and she she moved out of there at the end of May so literally just like what a couple days before Cooper decides
00:50:42
to show up at this house mhm she says while I lived there there was a hatchet that was inside this home and it matched
00:50:50
the one you know the description matches the one that was found on the side of the road that has the victim's blood on
00:50:55
it right but there's a lot of houses that have a hatchet true and let's just point out let's be clear this is 1983
00:51:03
let's also point out that the people that they're saying that that hatchet probably came from our place they are
00:51:10
white let's just put that out there okay um anyway this Hatchet according to her
00:51:19
and according to the owners of the home it was in their house before these murders took place
00:51:26
we also have the strange situation of the sheath that goes over the hatchet right Captain so this sheath was
00:51:33
supposedly found on the you know in in one of the rooms of this Hideout house right so meaning that somebody would
00:51:43
have to take off the cover once they take off the cover then they go up the hill they create the
00:51:49
murders as they drive down the hill in their car they're going to toss out this hatchet on the side of the road correct
00:51:58
correct and that is actually going to be pretty much the law enforcement's theory
00:52:04
on this case the theory being this Kevin Cooper was staying at this Hideout house
00:52:10
he decides that he needs money and a car to get him to Mexico he decides to break into this
00:52:18
home and when he breaks in he's confronted by I I guess the husband or the wife or some body and his reaction
00:52:27
is to murder everybody in the house and he only leaves that house after he thinks everyone is dead not knowing that
00:52:34
the 8-year-old boy would later survive right then he takes a beer from the fridge in the house where he killed
00:52:43
these people drinks the beer carries his items with him from this house where he
00:52:49
committed these murders back to The Hideout house where he's going to clean up and later take their car dispose of
00:52:57
the hatchet and make his way to Mexico but first he's going to stop in Long Beach and dump the car yeah so do we
00:53:05
have any evidence from the car then we do and and here's the thing though I apologize I think it wasn't until like 5
00:53:13
to 7 days after the murders that the vehicle was located I I I can't find it in my my notes here to be certain of
00:53:21
that but if memory serves me correct then it was about 5 to 7 days after the murders that the vehicle was found in
00:53:28
Long Beach inside the vehicle police found loose tobacco on the front passenger seat and floorboard they also
00:53:36
found blood stains and I want to I'm going to throw a caveat in here a buy or beware to everybody out there
00:53:43
listening regarding these blood stains inside the vehicle the Ryan's vehicle I found reports that are all
00:53:52
over the shop as to how much blood blood was found in the car and where the blood
00:53:58
was located some reports state that there were uh blood stains on the front passenger seat and on the driver's side
00:54:07
door jam there are also reports out there that suggest that blood stains were found in the back seat of the
00:54:14
vehicle as well MH so we have where we have one situation where the blood stains might suggest that only one
00:54:23
person one bloodied person stole this vehicle and moved it there's also evidence out there that suggests that
00:54:30
maybe more than one bloodied person was in that vehicle now the car did not appear to have been hotwired this is I
00:54:38
included this statement because I'm un if the keys were stolen for this car right I'm guessing that they might be
00:54:47
because we can we have to believe that the person that stole this vehicle was inside the Ryan home you know also if
00:54:54
you're kind of secluded from people that maybe you leave your keys in your car I
00:54:59
mean I've hung out with a lot of buddies that had lived on farms and stuff and they they never take their keys out of
00:55:05
their car yeah I I used to know somebody that would put it on the uh wheel yeah have you ever seen people do that they
00:55:12
put the the key on the wheel here you go I had a car once that uh congratulations
00:55:18
yeah uh the key was so like worn down MH I swear you could have put any key into
00:55:27
that ignition and it would have started like I and I think I actually did that one time I put the wrong key in it it
00:55:33
turned over still work yeah anyway but there were two cigarette butts that were found inside the vehicle M okay so one
00:55:40
of them was a hand rolled cigarette this was found in a in a crevice of the front
00:55:45
passenger seat M this is the same loose uh believed to be roll right brand tobacco which is provided for free to
00:55:54
the cim inmates right but you could buy this tobacco just on the like on the open
00:56:02
market right I no you couldn't according to my now I mind you I didn't smoke cigarettes back in 1983 or live in
00:56:10
California so I couldn't tell you roll cigarettes yeah I couldn't tell you with certainty but from what I found is this
00:56:18
roll right tobacco was provided for free to the inmates and not available for retail ah how would they know what kind
00:56:26
of brand of tobacco it would be uh okay in all honesty we have a lot of people that would testify later in court
00:56:38
that it appears to be this roll right brand of tobacco M I got to be honest with you Captain I
00:56:46
don't know how they would know that I I don't know how they would know that for I mean if you take if I gave you three
00:56:53
bags of loose tobacco you're not going to know which one is which well and what I mean by
00:56:59
that too not just if you gave it to me because I I don't don't know tobacco very well anyway but I'm saying if you
00:57:06
gave it to somebody that worked at a manufacturing plant which these are the types of people that testified at court
00:57:13
MH I think if you gave them if we broke open three cigarettes right now or bought three different kinds of loose
00:57:19
leaf tobacco like you said put them in different baggies and handed them to him they're taking the Pepsi Challenge and
00:57:28
they don't pass that test I don't see how they would identify those to be anything other than loose tobacco right
00:57:35
but I think that's the key here is you go okay we don't need to go to the fine you know Ballo pin right we just need to
00:57:44
we need to have a marker line right so we just need to go hey we have a loose tobacco mhm now in 1983 there's probably
00:57:53
more people rolling cigarettes than they are now or was at the height of when people smoked but it's still important
00:58:01
because that's a very smaller it's a lot smaller percentage well and then you have another issue here too they also
00:58:09
found a manufactured cigarette butt was found in the front passenger seat of the
00:58:14
car so MH so what we do know is we have a smoker yes and how do we know that those cigarettes
00:58:23
came from the person that stole the car we don't we we don't know that for certain and we can get into these
00:58:28
cigarette butts more later but the law enforcement is going to have an answer for this because here again just like
00:58:34
with the blood stains in the car captain that you could present an argument that
00:58:39
it was one bloodied perpetrator that was inside that car or it was multiple bloodied perpetrators that was inside
00:58:46
that car the two having two different types of cigarettes found in the vehicle might suggest more than one person
00:58:53
having been in the vehicle the problem with this though is we have Kevin Cooper who admittedly stayed at this Hideout
00:59:02
house well the owner of the the Mr lease who is one of the owners of the home said that he would leave vicroy brand
00:59:11
cigarettes in that house and that they were gone after Cooper had apparently stayed there right
00:59:19
so you have this thing where maybe he smoked some of that loose tobacco that he brought with him from the prison when
00:59:27
he escaped M and did he steal the Viceroy cigarettes while he was at the house if that's the case that could
00:59:34
explain a way that we don't have two different people smoking two different kinds of cigarettes we have one
00:59:40
individual just smoking whatever he can get his hands on at the time well and if
00:59:44
you have a bloody individual that goes inside the passenger seat goes into the driver's seat goes into the back seat
00:59:51
and that's going to make it seem like there's maybe possibly more than one individual as well while we're on the
00:59:57
topic of the cigarettes found in the vehicle Captain I do want to point out that several tests were conducted on
01:00:04
these cigarette butts so we have saliva test on the two cigarette butts in the Ryan station wagon these results were
01:00:13
consistent with cigarettes having been Smoked by a nonsecretor which we do know Kevin
01:00:19
Cooper is a nonsecretor only about 20% of the population are nonsecretors this doesn't mean that
01:00:27
it was exactly him so what the heck does that mean it just means that he is he has similar makeup to the person that
01:00:35
did smoke these cigarettes now the blood type of the person who smoked the manufactured cigarette that was found
01:00:42
was determined to be type A which is also consistent with Kevin Cooper's blood type mhm but now that we have DNA
01:00:50
why haven't we tested these items that's a good question um because it still doesn't prove the
01:00:56
murder but at least it proves um him inside their car well no I don't think that it does um Oh you mean if it were
01:01:05
tested for DNA right I just meant with the evidence that we currently have what I think's interesting about this
01:01:12
evidence though that they present here it doesn't specifically name Kevin Cooper as the person who smoked those
01:01:18
cigarettes and left them inside the Ryan station wagon but neither test excludes
01:01:24
him from being that person [Music] either we got a ton more to get to please join us back here in the garage
01:01:35
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