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n [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you were doing thanks
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for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always as a man who refuses to die with dignity here is the captain
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and I refuse to apologize for it it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling
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a friend today we are still sipping on this powerful and complex golden ale by the
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good folks over at yards Brewing Company this is called gold this is an English strong ale that pays homage to the
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founding father and beer brewer Thomas Jefferson this is a recreation of his old recipe garage gra three and a half
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bottle caps out of five and let's give some thanks and praise to our good friends for helping us out first up a
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shout out to Caroline Brian from Benish California and a we like your jib goes out to my buddy Morgan I just finished
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everybody that has been so generous this month for the month of February we are sending all of the beer fund donations
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everybody that helps us out with the beer fund and keeping the girls safe this month for more information stick
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around for this week's recommended reading yeah yeah b r in beer run for everything True Crime Check out true
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crime garage.com and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's
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talk some true [Music] Crow when we left off yesterday there Captain we had already placed an
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attorney James schwarzman in the apartment with the fiance Sam and we know that police are on the
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scene of course the medical examiner has been requested and detectives are arriving on the scene and detectives are
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getting there after James and camon schwarzman have already been allowed into the apartment which I find to be a
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little troubling we've seen other situations where people enter a scene this to me is showing me right away that
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we have a compromised scene we have a lack of professionalism I think when it comes to law enforcement in this case
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yes because what's going to be Paramount to the investigation is simply figuring
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out when did she die when were these wounds inflicted on her because if this was at the time when he was at the gym
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then he's not your guy this is probably a suicide but what police find it's the where the question marks go in this case
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start from me right here I mean we we have some things to call into question but a lot of that has to do with
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personalities and relationship Dynamics these are question marks that are about the actual investigation now one thing
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we do know is that the body's not removed for several hours okay that to me is always a good thing that allows
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detectives to do what it is that they should be doing this allows for the scene to be properly processed I'm
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always worried about a case when we find out that the body's been removed 45 minutes after everybody's on the scene
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or it also complicates a scene when the person the victim is removed because you're giving life-saving efforts and
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trying to rush them off to the hospital they don't have to do any of that here so you would think that our
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investigation is starting off well what we have here is I'd like to go through Sam Goldberg's
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statement but I before we get to that I want to get into what EMS what it's reported the EMS says that they observed
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when entering the apartment and this was that Ellen was seated in the corner of the kitchen with coagulated blood
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running horizontally from her nose to her ear and many suggesting that this positioning is indicative that she was
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likely initially lying flat on the ground when she was stabbed again no neighbors are reporting any loud noises
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or arguments or screams the only noises that they're reporting is Sam calling Ellen's name when it's believed he was
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attempting to gain access to the apartment we do know from the 911 call that she likely was moved even if it's
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just a centimeters but he is responding to her we know that per the 911 call because the dispatcher is at the early
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part of the call encouraging to him to perform CPR it sounds like he's going to attempt to do that but then he discovers
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that there's a knife sticking out of his fiance's chest to which the dispatcher then says that he will not be able to to
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perform CPR this is another part of the case that I think you could spend hours dissecting and speculating about what we
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don't have to speculate about is his statement to the police so here it goes he tells the officers who responded to
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the 911 call that he had left the couple sixf floor apartment to visit their building's gym at approximately 4:45
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p.m. he says proximately 45 minutes later he returned to the sixth floor but found the apartment door swing bar lock
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engaged from the inside he returned to the building's Lobby to try to reach Ellen via cell phone calls and text when
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approximately 1 hour had passed without a response Sam Goldberg said he decided to enter the apartment by force Sam
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Goldberg stated that he returned to the sixth floor accompanied by a building security guard later identified as
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Philip Hann and forced open the door once inside Mr Goldberg discovered the victim Seated on the kitchen floor with
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her head slouched over Sam Goldberg recounted that he immediately called 911 in accordance with the emergency
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operator's instructions Mr Goldberg lifted the victim's slouched head in order to perform
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CPR at that moment Mr Goldberg discovered the knife lodged in the vi VI's chest Medics arrived and pronounced
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the victim dead at 6:40 p.m. that's his statement to police what do we learn about the scene Ellen's body is found on
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the hardwood kitchen floor located just inside the door entrance area she's found with her head and some of her
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upper body her shoulders resting against the lower half of white kitchen cabinets
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that are next to the cooking range her body starting with the head is facing north and the legs West she's wearing a
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zip up dark colored shirt over top of a t-shirt gray sweatpants underwear and a light brown Ugg boots a pair of
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eyeglasses are found on the floor to her right a white towel is in her left hand
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there's a hair tie or scrunchie that is on her right wrist other than that there's no personal effects on the body
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inside the apartment that it is noted that a strainer filled with blueberries and an orange that appears to be freshly
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sliced rest on the counter two clean knives were in the sink so two clean knives kitchen knives are in the sink of
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the kitchen we have a kitchen knife sticking out of the chest of our victim this is a knife that came from the
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Butcher Block in the kitchen of this apartment from my understanding that butcher block had been either
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moved from its original position like it was bumped or it was bumped and knocked
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over yeah I think this information to me doesn't point to any answers it just points to more questions Ellen's body
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was removed from the apartment at about 3 a.m. and she was removed so that an autopsy could be completed we do know
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that James schwarzman the uncle of the fiance Sam's uncle called the apartment building's property manager requesting
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access to the apartment this is the day after okay Melissa wear was the property
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manager at the time she calls the police department because she's saying James schwarzman Sam's uncle is asking for
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access to the apartment he wants to collect some of his nephew's personal belongings from the apartment the police
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department told Melissa wear that it was isn't an active crime scene and therefore she could allow access to the
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uncle of the apartment and this the information I found Captain goes as far to say that the police department gave
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Melissa wear the property manager a phone number for a crime scene Cleanup Crew so not only is this not a crime
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scene and you can grant access to somebody but oh here's here's a phone number for some people that come out and
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they clean these things up so she calls the uncle and told him that yes he has access he's allowed on the premises and
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can get into the apartment and he also re she relays the Philadelphia Police Department's recommendation of the crime
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crime scene cleanup service to which the uncle says that that Sam Goldberg or Sam
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Goldberg's family will pay for the service and so therefore the property manager made arrangements with the
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service to come in and clean up so Arrangements were made for Crime Scene cleanup to clean up the apartment on
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that same day the day after the death th that's horrible that is absolutely horrible if
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I'm one of if I'm a detective there I'm telling even if the police chief has got
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his head so far up his ass that he's allowing this to happen which I don't think it even this phone call from the
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property manager don't didn't even reach these levels I hope that it did not get
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to the level of a detective I hope that that was just a whoever was in charge of
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answering the phones that day had a really dumb answer that's what I'm hoping here because if this reached any
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ranking official or ranking officer or if there was a conversation behind closed doors of me and my boss I'm
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telling the captain homicide Captain I'm telling the police chief whoever I have to talk to
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give me one more day give me one more look at that apartment before we clean it up it even if you guys don't if you
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think there's nothing here at least let me back in there one more time to make sure that this is what we think it is we
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don't know who made that call but we do know that that didn't happen they didn't
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get back in there this apartment was clean to me it's not so much about getting one last look it's give me a day
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or so to go over the evidence that I collected to see if I need go back in it's just a safety net that's all it is
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and so again like you said I think maybe this doesn't hit the detective's ears or
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or maybe the chief of police's ears it doesn't hit hopefully it doesn't right yeah measure twice cut once is really
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how I look at this thing I mean it this was not investigation that was completed
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be it out of your police file back at the police station or your work inside that apartment it was not done at this
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time there's no cleanup to be had at this time in our timeline so initially at first on January 27th it
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sounds like the medical examiner was leaning toward or may have even classified the death as a homicide that
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would ultimately be changed to suicide and what's strange here is very quickly it's like by day two there's a statement
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from police the police spokesperson who says we've not yet determined if it's a homicide or a suicide but we're leaning
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toward suicide now the autopsy findings we could spend three episodes on the autopsy to me I don't think that it's
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necessary but here's what the findings were there's multiple stab wounds to the chest abdomen and the back of the neck
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the stab wounds affected vital area including the aortic Arch left lung the cervical spine this indicates severe
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trauma to essential organs and structures okay so that's that's why the person is
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deceased the blade details are it it's 12.5 CM which is almost a 5 in Blade this was embedded in the wound
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to the chest with a depth of 10 cm so that's almost 4 inches deep in the chest as said there's 20 stab wounds or knife
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wounds to our victim here what we cannot say even if we review each one what we cannot say is the order in
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which these wounds were created but there are 20 of them what we can say is we do know what the last one is because
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the knife is still unfortunately in the victim there is notation in the this report the presence of multiple bruises
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at different stages of resolution suggesting a pattern of physical altercations or abuse occurring over
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time that's in the the initial the f I say initial autopsy because there had to be multiple autopsies conducted in this
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case but in the very first one that is listed in the very first one the presence of multiple bruises at
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different stages of resolution suggesting a pattern of physical altercations or AB abuse occurring over
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time this could mean multiple things it could mean that somebody was physically abusing or victim it could mean our
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victim is Clumsy or she's physically abusing herself or she's hurting herself self harm but to me that statement alone
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is telling me as an investigator wait we can't come to a conclusion of suicide yet we
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at the very least it's undetermined and therefore it warrants further investigation that's I mean that
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is as plain and simple as it gets that is detective work 101 police work 101 that's what they teach you in the first
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five minutes there's further investigation required here in the initial report do they talk anything
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about strangulation no they do not one thing that I did find to be a bit strange though very early in this
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investigation this is the on the same day so the day after we know the apartment was cleaned after the
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apartment is clean the day after James schwarzman who was granted access to the apartment showed up and removed the suit
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that he had told the property manager about but also removed Ellen's purse cell phone and laptop now the reason
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that he claims that he took the laptop is that he also claims that he took his nephew's laptop and didn't know which
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laptop belonged to who so he took both of them but still once you find out that a purse he knew he had the first didn't
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belong to Sam well right and same with the cell phone and so my argument would be I don't know what was on her laptop I
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don't I don't know if she had a certain kind of cover if was the laptop uh a color did she have stickers on it I mean
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some people decorate their laptops so so that that's something I'd like to know because if there's a clear difference
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between the two I I think it doesn't make any sense to have to have taken both laptops exactly okay so let's
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pretend for a minute he Sam who now if you're acting on his behalf you're he's your client at this point whether he's
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paid you a a penny or not but he essentially is your client at this point if your client requests that you go to
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the premises and remove these items to bring to him and the police are not denying you access that seems all well
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and good and and it could be simply him saying look my fiance just died in that apartment I don't know if I'll ever go
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back but I it's not just died she she killed herself yeah in a in a very violent way too right and so I'm maybe
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he maybe this is a conversation that they had and these are items that I need could you go and just collect anything
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that looks important cuz I don't know if I'm ever going back there that could be
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the conversation but but the the problem with this becomes from my understanding
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the police have this is where the police mucked this thing up and and the attorney mucks it up even more but the
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police allowed the attorney to muck it up even more because your investigation hasn't even started yet when you've not
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determined the manner of death that from my understanding this has not even been
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determined yet so therefore we cannot say that it should not be a homicide investigation it should be always be
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treated as a homicide until you can prove that it's not in every situation and if it's a homicide and I'm a
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detective what do I want I want access to her computer I want access to his computer I want access to her phone I
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want access to his phone exactly and then here's another complicated this becomes a very gray area right if James
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schwarzman is now acting on behalf of his client's best interest at this point in our
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timeline if you don't have a determination if you are not investigating it as a homicide then
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guess what is what I believe that you could probably get away with because James schwarzman is an officer of the
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Court any officer of the Court will know that you cannot illegally you cannot tamper with evidence and all of this
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stuff should be evidence at this point he cannot do that as an officer of the Court nor should a civilian either but
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where it becomes a gray area that maybe you can get away with it is no the police said this is not a crime scene so
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I can collect these things because nobody can come back on me later saying that I was tampering with evidence
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because if it's not a crime scene this [ __ ] ain't evidence right there were a few things
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so what happens here there is a search warrant that is issued by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and and I
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believe that it is executed on January 27th so this is the day after they are searching for the following items and
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removing searched and seized the following items here's what's here's what a pisser right here Captain this
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whole case is a pisser yeah but if if you're you have to file for the search warrant it has to be signed off on and
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granted permission right even though you're the police you still have to get the search warrant and that's where you
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see them doing their due diligence but if I'm a judge and I'm signing off on it I want to know well why do you need to
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search and seize items from this particular property well they have to tell the the judge the purpose is
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related to the investigation of a homicide by a cutting instrument involving Ellen Greenberg or victim if
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that's your description on the search warrant to the judge that means you should this is a crime scene nobody's
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allowed in here you just said the word homicide in your paperwork filing with the judge all right sorry I'm getting
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too worked up here the items that were searched and seized assorted knives blood samples a Ser serrated knife with
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a black handle assorted paint samples a bloody hand towel found in the kitchen assorted clothing blood samples a
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diamond ring latent prints and a rubber made container like a big tupperware container I do want to point out when
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you were talking about the injuries we don't have any injuries to our hands that look like defensive wounds do we
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correct and so this would be suggesting that she wasn't fighting anybody off that she she didn't need to now before
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we get to the 29th of January let's let's go through briefly these wounds and better describe them to people that
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don't know this case so the majority of these wounds or at least 10 of them were
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to the back portion of her body like the back of her neck the top of her head the
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back of her head right there's a lot of wounds there so this is for a lack of a better term it's it's a steak knife to
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me it looks more like a like a large pairing knife that's serrated and it's believed that this knife made all 20 of
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these wounds now there's varying depths of the stab wounds and of the cuts there's varying lengths of the of the
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cut to the body but to put it plain and simple 10 of these AB wounds are not where you would anticipate finding on a
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a person who committed suicide 10 of them are to the back of her the back of her neck the back of her
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head in fact to be honest with you Captain when looking at the autopsy and go to Crime time lines.com they have
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photos there autopsy photos from looking at it I would make the assumption that that large injury to the large wound to
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the back of her head that to me almost looked like like she was pushed and hit her head real hard and it split open
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that's what it looked like to me but we're being told that that was in fact a stabo yeah but
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look we can agree they didn't do a good job with the autopsies right let's the problem with all these medical
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examinations are when we have multiple doctors look if there are even doctors whatever their certification
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is that we get varying reports so it's not unreasonable to think that maybe she got this like you said being pushed into
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an item or maybe there's some sort of blunt force trauma but I bring up the no defensive wounds because that could also
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occur there'd be no defensive wounds if you kill yourself but there would also be no defensive wounds if somebody
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attacks you from behind but also multiple bruises at different stages of resolution suggesting a pattern of
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physical altercations or abuse occurring over time right while that statement is
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true a portion of that true statement is multiple bruises at differing different
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stages of resolution meaning that some of those bruises could be fresh so I had a real hard time when reviewing the
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different autopsies and their findings because they don't completely match one another and two this is a statement that
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gives me pause if you're telling me that they she does have bruising at different
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stages of resolution who but yet you can confirm there's no defensive wounds that's that seems like both of those
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things cannot be true like it seems possible to me that some of those bruises might have been defensive wounds
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they just are more fresh bruises [Music] [Applause] [Music] all right we are back welcome back to
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the madness talk hands in the air cheers to you Colonel cheers to you captain on
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January 29th 2011 this is just days after the mysterious death is the best way to put it
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of Ellen Greenberg police released a statement a police spokesperson said that despite the homicide ruling
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authorities were leaning toward suicide in Ellen's case and looking into quote mental issues end quote she might have
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had Lieutenant Raymond Evers emphasized that the case is still wide open but he said he wanted to assure residents of
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the area that there wasn't quote a maniac on the loose I don't know why I just hate it cuz if you don't know if
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you're not 100% sure of what happens right or what happened in I say anything at all why say anything at all yeah and
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and again it's it's is it stupidity or is it arrogance yeah I think that they're they're being pressed to say
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something and so yeah you you do say something you owe that to the public that's who you work for that's who
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you're in charge of keeping safe but I don't know that you have to go into great detail or or go this far I I
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would simply be stating we're still looking into what happened anytime you have an unsolved case that may be a
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homicide yeah people should be on high alert help people should be on on alert just in their everyday lives anyway yeah
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I was posed the question the other day are people becoming more crazy or are we just hearing about it more often we're
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definitely hearing about about it more often and there's more of us today than there were before and guess what my
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friend we're part of the problem yeah so we here's what we learned in April the laptop forensics comes back on Ellen's
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computer so this is regional computer forensics laboratory turned over their findings to the PPD uh April 1st of 2011
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which revealed a search history much of it we've already discussed on Ellen's computer between December 18th and
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January 10th that included Search terms such as suicide methods quick suicide and painless
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suicide on April 15 2011 the medical examiner office investigation report was revised to reflect that when the fiance
00:28:49
forced entry into the apartment an apartment Security man was reportedly present during this entry ultimately
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this is the ruling has changed to Suicide unbeknownst to her family from the way that I understand this Captain
00:29:05
is that her death certificate was kind of quietly updated or quietly revised like they didn't go out of their way to
00:29:13
notify a bunch of people that hey this is this is now our finding so it sounds to me like a lot of this determination
00:29:20
may have a cause and effect here of well we found somebody searching these terms
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on her computer Within in five weeks six weeks of her her death right we also have this report that the fiance wasn't
00:29:35
alone when he forced entry into the apartment but we now know that that's not correct right wherever they got that
00:29:42
information even if it just came from Sam Goldberg because remember we went through his statement to the police
00:29:48
which says that the security person Personnel escorted me they they were with me when I went back up to the sixth
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floor and busted down the door now I keep saying that but it didn't really he bust into the apartment and the way that
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it looks to me is he the door didn't get ripped off of the hinges it was the lock
00:30:09
mechanism simply broke off of the door again this case just lends itself to something that might be evidence just
00:30:19
lends itself to more questioning like we have these searches on her computer but
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we don't know who made the searches I don't think we have a location of where these searches took place if they took
00:30:32
place on her computer inside that apartment Sam could have made these searches just as easy as she could have
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she also could have made the searches and didn't take her own life correct but what he can't fake in all this is the
00:30:48
communication that she's having with friends and family right about the troubles that she is facing and I think
00:30:56
her mental issue that was going on Captain if you'll bear with me I'm going to try to deliver this
00:31:02
next bit of information as succinctly as possible and kind of a a concise manner
00:31:07
because what we're going to see in this case is we're going to see her family fight for her to get a proper
00:31:17
determination of why their daughter is dead but this fight will take years it will take years and we he
00:31:28
unfortunately get a lot of requests from family members who have lost someone a lot of those requests include people
00:31:38
that died from an overdose or a drowning or fill in the blank but it was not ruled a homicide and the sad
00:31:48
conversation that we have to have with those individuals is we would like to present your case we would like to take
00:31:55
it on we can only present so many of these cases where you don't agree with the findings of the medical examiner or
00:32:01
the police because there's so many open homicides and cold cases out there right
00:32:09
now that our schedule's full and one of the most difficult things to get is to get that ruling
00:32:17
overturned and look it's very rare I've only seen one situation that is investigated by the police department as
00:32:25
a homicide where the medical examiner ruled at natural causes I've only seen one case out of the thousands that I've
00:32:33
looked at you know over these years with this Obsession of True Crime we have a sickness what we have here is
00:32:40
the family one of their initial things that they're going to try to fight this ruling is to say look let's bring in an
00:32:46
expert let's have our own expert take a look and sirel wet who is a renowned forensic pathologist Dr C W took a look
00:32:55
at the report but this wouldn't be until January of 2012 his report says that everything he reviewed is strongly
00:33:05
suspicious of homicide in fact he would later go on to say on record but not in this report that he couldn't figure out
00:33:14
how they arrived at the conclusion of suicide at all then we have Dr Henry Lee PhD who issued a report stating the
00:33:23
number of wounds and the type of wounds and the blood stain patterns are consistent with a homicide so Henry
00:33:31
Lee's only reviewing pictures of the scene and the documentation of the autopsy but I think I think any
00:33:41
level-headed person would say 20 stab wounds while not impossible seems very highly unlikely that somebody would do
00:33:50
that level of damage to themselves before expiring or before not possessing the physical ability to continue to harm
00:33:58
yourself and then many people would say that the 10 wounds to the back of our victim here is highly suggestive that
00:34:06
she didn't inflict those wounds on herself now we went through the we went through the specs of the knife itself
00:34:16
right so you have almost a 5in blade you're going to have a handle that handle is roughly about the same size as
00:34:23
the blade so you only need five inches between your fist the bottom of your fist or the top of your fist to hit
00:34:31
yourself in the back of the neck or the back of your head with that knife so I want to point out something while while
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I think that a lot of people have spent a lot of time reviewing each and every one of these wounds I don't find it to
00:34:44
be necessary because I I can physically make that motion to myself with either hand and successfully hit the mark what
00:34:54
I think the best statement to label these wounds is not probable that it's suicide but it doesn't have to be murder
00:35:06
because physically an able-body person of her age can can make that motion can bend that way it's possible it's un it's
00:35:15
unnatural it's awkward but I not only can I do it with one with my right hand my or my left hand I could do it with
00:35:23
both so because there are a lot of people that say that the the wounds after you
00:35:29
review them are suggesting that they're coming from different angles and from different sides that that one would have
00:35:36
to be switching hands throughout and my push back on that Captain would be no I could put the knife in both of my hands
00:35:43
together holding with both of my hands and physically reach all of these marks I see what you're saying I think the
00:35:50
difficulty becomes when she doesn't have I I believe there's like no blood evidence on her left hand so if she
00:35:59
could reach these by using multiple hands there I I don't think there's any evidence that she used multiple hands
00:36:06
and you were right Captain it's in one of these later autopsies that the examiner is suggesting that there maybe
00:36:14
indication of strangulation I was a little fuzzy on that detail because it it sounded like
00:36:22
it was some kind of bruising of the muscle the neck muscle and it made have only been as big as a thumbnail or a
00:36:31
fingernail so I'm a little unclear on on the I don't I to me it sounded more like
00:36:37
speculation rather than a right a proper claim yeah I agree there too but I think
00:36:46
again this this case just LS itself to whatever you learn you just have more questions like what medication was she
00:36:54
on at the time what doses what were the doses what medications were she was she what medication was she prescribed
00:37:06
by her doctors was she taking that medication was she abusing that medication are any of the side effects
00:37:16
do they lend themselves to make this more probable and I know a lot of people there's many points of this you know
00:37:26
they they talk about the the the orange freshly cut orange it didn't look freshly cut to me I the picture I
00:37:34
reviewed that didn't look like freshly cut to me but but but even so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that
00:37:43
she's cutting this orange and she's been thinking about hurting herself or taking
00:37:48
herself out of this world and decides right then in there Now's the Time that's not out of the realm of
00:37:54
possibilities there's I had a detective tell me one time that did you know a lot of men that
00:38:00
commit suicide will get their haircut that day now is it did they get their haircut so they look better when people
00:38:07
find them or is it just evidence of that a lot of these things take place on a normal
00:38:16
day well that and to not we I don't want to analyze this too much because it should be understood that there are
00:38:24
people that plan to take their own lives and they go to great LS to to carry out
00:38:29
their plans and make arrangements and such even if it's something as simple as looking good with a fresh haircut and
00:38:36
then there are other people who struggle and impulsively will take their own life
00:38:42
and mixture of both exactly so I don't know that so to me there yes I I would I would ex expect
00:38:54
to find some signs like a pre-existing condition if you will which we do see some of that we whether she
00:39:04
committed you know whether she's searching these terms on her computer or not we do know that her family is
00:39:09
expressing concern about her to the point where her family tells her go see somebody go see a professional and we
00:39:16
know that she's communicating with her mom that she's taking her meds and so that is that is fact right there we know
00:39:23
that that happened now the thing that gets real tricky here is both can be true in both scenarios may maybe she
00:39:33
filled up because some people go well she filled up her gas tank well she sliced up an
00:39:39
orange well I'm sorry I wish I could sit here and tell you that there's never been a person
00:39:45
before in the history of of man that filled up their gas tank and then went home and killed themselves I wish I
00:39:52
could tell you that that's never ever happened before therefore it will never it's not a possibility no that stuff
00:39:58
happens unfortunately some people cut up some fruit that happens the problem though is this investigation wasn't
00:40:08
handled properly and therefore every bit of evidence if you will gets really difficult for us to
00:40:16
examine because it's all tainted by this point now if the investigation was conducted properly a lot of these
00:40:24
missteps made by other people would wouldn't have happen Okay so you watched the OJ Simpson Netflix thing right we we
00:40:33
both said we were going to watch it and yeah later you said you would give us a ruling on two thumbs up one thumb up I
00:40:40
give it three thumbs up I thought it was awesome it was a great documentary one of the best but one thing that was so
00:40:47
aggravating about it I thought it was great as well so you you have the full backing of True Crime Garage on that on
00:40:53
the new OJ Netflix one thing that the documentary highlighted and I don't know that this
00:41:00
stood out for everyone but it certainly stood out for me was they're going through and they're like look at all
00:41:05
this additional blood evidence that was never presented at trial and you're like
00:41:09
well [ __ ] I thought he did it before now with all this additional blood evidence
00:41:14
that they found all over the place he absolutely did it yeah well you hear that there's a mountain of evidence and
00:41:21
then like you said there's a whole another mountain of evidence that's not even presented not collect
00:41:28
properly so they can present it at trial so then you go well there's a mount kilimajaro of evidence in the OJ case I
00:41:37
sat there and got very angered watching it going well why didn't they what a bunch of idiots they should have
00:41:43
presented this additional evidence at trial and then you find out well there was a problem somewhere along the way
00:41:49
where it was either evidence that wasn't collected or they question how it was collected or it wasn't photographed and
00:41:56
then you have four detectives that were all at the scene and they're all saying some they're saying different things one
00:42:03
detective saying it's in my notes and the other detective saying well that doesn't do us any good you didn't
00:42:08
communicate those notes to us so your notes never made it to our notes right and then you say well this wasn't
00:42:15
photographed I don't know why it wasn't photographed I I saw it and put it in my
00:42:19
notes well you didn't tell anybody to photograph it and that's what I think happened here I don't understand how you
00:42:26
get at least four detectives I I think there might have been five or six at all on the scene at one time inside the
00:42:32
apartment how the hell one of them didn't go wait we got to work this as a homicide until it's not befuddles me the
00:42:40
other thing that that completely makes me rip my hair out is if I'm a detective at the scene I'm looking at at the other
00:42:49
detective and I'm saying hey do you want to do this or do you want me to do it one of us needs to go to an unoccupied
00:42:55
unit and see if we can close the door and lock it from the outside one of us needs to go and see if we can make that
00:43:05
lock lock itself or use some kind of tool or screwdriver or whatever to set it up so that I can lock it from the
00:43:14
outside because you had mentioned him being on the phone and that might be trying to establish an alibi his Alibi
00:43:21
is the door being locked in the belief that it can only be locked from the inside because if that is true if we can
00:43:28
say that 1,000 times and feel 100% confident about it each of those times we say it if that door can only
00:43:38
physically be locked from the inside and there's no other way in and out of this
00:43:44
apartment then she had to kill her kill herself and I think that that is because
00:43:50
the investigation wasn't conducted properly then you see a domino effect where the autopsies weren't conducted
00:43:57
appropriately you see where they add to the report stating that a security Personnel was present with Sam Goldberg
00:44:06
when he forced his way into the apartment they add that to their ruling that it's a suicide so they must have
00:44:12
believed the same well you could only lock it from the inside therefore that is proof that he didn't kill her that
00:44:19
she killed herself because he had somebody present with him when he busted open the door what do I mean by that
00:44:27
things if he killed her and then went to the gym and that door was locked then he
00:44:33
had to figure out a way to lock it behind him yeah it's actually not that hard to do if you have a string or even
00:44:41
a shoelace well what I mean by that is he is I like to I like to look at people's actions what are they doing and
00:44:49
who is the one that's try propelling these actions into willing them into existence right one thing he is doing
00:44:57
whether he's innocent or guilty is he's trying to get the security person to come up with him to bust down the door
00:45:05
we right we know that he's trying to do that now he could be doing that because he's concerned about his fiance and he's
00:45:12
worried what's going on inside the apartment or he could want the security person to go up there with him because
00:45:19
it will look a lot better if I'm not the one that discovers the body it would look a lot better if there's somebody
00:45:25
here to confirm that that door was locked because many people believe it can only be locked
00:45:31
from the inside that lock is his Alibi he couldn't get that security person to go up there with him right and so he
00:45:38
bust the door by himself what I'm what I'm saying is yes he could stage the scene but he would have to be able to
00:45:46
successfully stage the scene with that door locked because that's his Alibi if I'm a detective that's the first thing I
00:45:53
want to figure out detective b c D who who wants to do this one of you guys want to do it or you want me to go
00:46:02
go to unoccupied unit and spend 15 20 minutes and see if I can figure figure out locking it without being inside I've
00:46:10
not actually attempted there was part of me Captain want I wanted to go to a hotel and find a similar lock but then I
00:46:15
was like well if I successfully do it if they have to damage the door to get in I'm G have to pay for that door I think
00:46:22
I I'm looking at that picture I think that I could figure out a way to Jimmy rig it and get it to close get it to
00:46:29
lock well I've done it before like I said with a a shoelace because once you get the door once you get the were you
00:46:37
able to remove the shoelace after locking it yeah because basically the the the shoelace will go around the
00:46:46
latch on both sides once it's on the handle then you can just pull the shoelace through by either side well no
00:46:54
but wouldn't you have to do that after re-entering the door that you just locked meaning could you remove the
00:47:00
shoelace while the door was still locked and I'm asking that question because well no because the thing is when you go
00:47:08
to open up the door right you go to open up the door and the latch is on it allows you to
00:47:15
open the door just a little bit and that would be enough to pull the shoelace through head head on down to the gym
00:47:24
okay so your answer is yes you can remove the is lace while the door is still locked because it's still
00:47:29
technically locked and I'm asking that because of this situation if he were able to figure out how to do that how to
00:47:39
lock that door from the outside and you just suggested a way he would also have to be able to successfully remove
00:47:46
whatever it is that he used to implement that so that when the security person is
00:47:52
with him it's not obvious to anybody that it was locked from the outside again his Alibi is the lock right so if
00:47:59
he did kill her how did he stage it and how did he successfully stage it so well
00:48:06
is is a question that you have to answer because regardless of of what took place
00:48:12
I believe that door was locked I believe it was locked in the manner that he said
00:48:16
it was and I believe that simply because guilty or innocent if he's innocent she
00:48:22
locked the door that's easy if he's guilty he at least tried hard enough to get somebody to be present he wanted it
00:48:30
to be known he wanted it to be witnessed that he had a bust in the door and that
00:48:35
it was in fact locked you can't get the security guard to come up with you when you have to knock down the door so you
00:48:42
can't get him to be present when you find her dead in the apartment so what do you do you call somebody so
00:48:51
somebody's then present with you on the phone seems a little fishy couple of items that we should mention here are
00:48:59
some of these wounds so the Ellen's spinal Dora was punctured meaning that she should have been incapacitated before
00:49:09
she could have inflicted additional stab wounds all right now I want to touch on
00:49:13
this a little bit because there there were forensics that came out that said her basically her spinal cord was
00:49:21
damaged and if that were true from the stab wounds that she would wouldn't be able to to continue to inflict
00:49:29
additional stab wounds after this she would have been incapacitated again we don't know the
00:49:35
order of the stab wounds regardless of where you read them they're listed differently nobody knows what order
00:49:42
except for the last one we know the last one was the one in her chest however if
00:49:47
this statement is true then she wouldn't have even been able to inflict that very
00:49:52
last one leaving the knife in in her chest I say if this statement is true because at this point in the
00:50:00
investigation and in my investigation the best we could do from 30,000 ft I'm reading these autopsies and I'm going I
00:50:09
don't know how much I weight I can put in any one particular finding because they're it's not found in the other
00:50:17
autopsy so there are statements that say yes there was damage but she may not have been incapacitated the other
00:50:25
problem I have too is there's there was another medical finding that one of the wounds was inflicted postmortem and this
00:50:33
is easy usually pretty easy easy to determine because there's the blood flow has stopped at this point so if somebody
00:50:42
if somebody put the knife in her one more time or more than once after she de she's dead well she didn't kill herself
00:50:49
then that's a homicide the the problem then I thought when finding that at first Captain I would be like well this
00:50:56
is easy if one of the wounds at least one was committed postmortem then this is an open and shut case this is a
00:51:03
homicide and the only one with the means and opportunity is probably the boyfriend the fiance so this at first
00:51:11
glance I'm reading the information I'm going through and I'm like I don't understand the Public's fascination with
00:51:16
this case because it's right here in front of us there's no question but the more I got to thinking about it is
00:51:22
they've paved their own Road here they've made their own bed and from what my eyes can see about that road and
00:51:30
about the bed that they've made we cannot trust the autopsy findings in this case so I cannot sit here and feel
00:51:39
incredibly confident about that statement that one of the wounds was postmortem and here's why I would want
00:51:46
to know what I expect as a medical examiner wound a and wound B to be noticeably different right one
00:51:56
postmortem wound one that is not would I expect those to look noticeably different to me because what we do know
00:52:04
is the the knife was found in her chest he didn't remove it when he was on the phone with
00:52:11
911 what with leaving the knife in what what does that do to the body right does that does that stop blood
00:52:19
flow would you expect to see blood flow and then there was none so it was postmortem that that's the I think think
00:52:26
there's additional information that needs to be had here and what wound was it which of the 20 was the postmortem
00:52:34
wound was it the knife sticking out of her chest or was it a different one that all plays a big role here and I think
00:52:40
that that's something that we're going to figure out one thing that we have figured out is Philip hon the security
00:52:46
Personnel he says I didn't go up there with him and we now know based off of surveillance footage that we see footage
00:52:54
a still image of s Goldberg in the elevator going up to the sixth floor by himself there's nobody there with him he
00:53:03
gets off of the elevator and eventually breaks into the apartment so his statement to police that somebody was
00:53:07
with him when he broke into the apartment is not correct that didn't happen not the way he
00:53:13
[Music] described in my opinion the more evidence you have in this case the more
00:53:30
questions you have if you want to stick around and listen to the colonel and the
00:53:35
captain rant their faces off in part three and join us back here in the garage until then be good be kind and
00:53:44
don't wor [Music] [Applause] [Music]