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Welcome to Off the Record. I'm your host, Nickime. >> It's good to be seen, and it's good to
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see you. Off the record, thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. >> True Crime podcast. Be good, be kind,
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and don't live. First time. >> Gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.
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>> The second episode in the series was titled The Fifth Victim. Rotten Tomatoes description of this
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episode is trauma continues to haunt the community as family members search for healing, resolution, and ways to hold on
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to the memories of the girls. The initial suspicions around the four teenage boys lead nowhere. After several
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false leads and wrongful arrest, homicide supervisor Hector Palano is found to have coerced a suspect into a
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false confession and is reassigned. Lead investigator John Jones is diagnosed with PTSD and is taken off of the case.
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That's something you were talking about earlier in our conversation here, seeing
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Jones, Detective Jones, and his struggle and what this case has done to him on a
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physical, emotional, probably even a spiritual level. And I when we catch up with Jones later, so I don't know, they
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didn't go into this. If they did, I missed it. So, we see Beverly Lowry a couple times
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during the docu series, and she is just such a brilliant author, brilliant true crime author.
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If you're for the folks in listener land, if you watched the documentary and you loved it, read her book. If you
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watched the documentary and you hated it, read her book. If you thought it was okay, read her book. The book is if you
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are into the case and want to know a lot more about the case, the actual case information, read her book. And why I
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say she's so brilliant is the way this is a very complicated and a very lengthy story. And what makes her brilliant is
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the way that she constructed the story. the the order that she chose to take the
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reader on this journey with her was absolutely brilliant. But in her book, again, I don't know if the docu series
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covered this with Detective Jones, who I seem to I like. I don't know why. I just
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feel like I like this guy. >> Yeah. >> I I feel like he's the kind of guy like, "Hey, let's have a couple beers and
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shoot the shit." Like, I think I think he he just seems like that kind of guy. But he, from my understanding, if I'm
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remembering from her book correctly, I think this case in his job cost him more than just what we see on the screen. He
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he ends up getting a divorce. You see, uh, at one point, you know, you see his daughters there. And I think he said
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something in Beverly, so he would meet with Beverly Lowry and they would have breakfast like many, many mornings in a
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row and they would go over the case together. so she could write the book. She said that when they were meeting and
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going through the case file and talking about the case, some of it was hell for this guy cuz he was having to like
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relive stuff in front of her and experience things almost again. You know, you have a case here where four
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victims are all female victims, young female victims. Detective Jones is the only male in his home. You know, it's
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his wife and it's his daughters. and he said something to Beverly Lowryly to the
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effect of I was the only guy in the house. Well, there was the dog, but he ran away.
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And you know why I think you would dig Jones? I I believe he was a music major in college and he was he was going to
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school for I I don't remember what instrument he played, but he was a music major at a college in in in the area
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there and he needed money and he they the Austin PD were hiring right when he got I believe he graduated college and
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he's like you know what I'll just this is a job that will pay well it have good benefits Um, I don't know that he
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intended to be there for and make a career out of it. Yeah, he he was a music major.
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>> Well, and a lot of that probably has to do with what he saw. It's one thing to
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examine these cases from afar, but for the individuals, the first responders that showed up at that scene that night,
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that forever changed their lives and and probably their their futures. And it's the it's the terrible burden of feeling
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like you let the victims down and you let the families down. Hell, he says and he said, "Look, maybe I did get too
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close to it." But again, how could you not, right? You can't fault a guy for getting too close to a case, especially
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one like this one. He said at some point that one of the victim's parents told him like, "We think you need to take a a
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vacation and kind of get away from this for a while." Like, can you imagine the griefstricken parents have to tell the
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detective to take a break because they can see what it's doing to him? I was thinking about this. There's a handful
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of cases that we have covered. Maybe we've covered them multiple times, but and I won't say which cases those are
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for me, but there's two or three cases that if somebody brings up in conversation, I I really just don't want
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to talk about it anymore. I didn't get the uh maybe I get it now that we're having our conversation, but the title,
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the fifth victim, maybe maybe Jones is the fifth victim. >> No, I think it's everybody.
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It's the family members like the >> It's the four boys that get accused. >> Yeah. I mean, look, I think there's
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people that are out there that can still look at these guys as viable suspects. >> Mhm.
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>> And I and I think that's okay. I one of the things about this documentary that
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irked me a little bit and I don't know how you feel about this but whether it's the prosecutors or it was the defense
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team didn't seem like a lot of people wanted the truth as much as they just wanted to be right.
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>> I agree with that. I I don't know. I don't know if I agree with it across the
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board, but I definitely look >> definitely not across the board, but like you see that over and over and
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look, it could just be at that time and maybe that person changed their stance on on some of this stuff later. I think
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there's many moments where people are making statements where you're like, are you just do you just want these four
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guys to be guilty or are you trying to find the truth of what happened? Well, and that that is why I think I like
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Jones so much because with every theory that's out there, every possible suspect, he always goes back to, well,
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you where's the evidence? We got we got to be able to and we got to be able to prove it. It doesn't matter what we
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think, we got to be able to prove it. Where Johnson, who's received a whole lot of praise, and look, he does have a
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great career. I'm, you know, he's taken on a lot of big cases, but with Johnson,
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I'm not going to say that I dislike the guy, but it's but you can easily see that when something doesn't when parts
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of the confession don't does not fit the evidence, he will then rework it to fit
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to make things fit. Even with the fire, remember, he's the one that goes back and says, "Well, we talked to the fire
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guy and the fire guy said, "You know what? it it could have started over here or it probably did start this way. And
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when the gun doesn't match multiple times, then it's like, well, those 22 bullets get all messed up and they're
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they're easily damaged and it would be too tough. But no, that's like I get what you're saying, John. Johnson, and I
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get what maybe the conversations are behind closed doors about the bullets aren't going to you're going to have a
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tough time testing these bullets or getting a match on them. But I've also heard other people talking about this
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case, people that are qualified, people in law enforcement in in the two books that were written about this case that
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very flat out say the bullets didn't match, the ballistics didn't match, and they were tested multiple times. And and
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they don't sit there and try to rhyme or reason why they didn't match. It just didn't match. Like it that's not your
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gun. That's not your gun. And even when presented with that, Johnson later says something or or somebody presents the
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idea of, "Well, we know Maurice Pierce had access to other guns." Yeah. I think you have to have a level head about you.
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And I think he says in episode 4, I wish I would have wrote it down, but he basically said, "I had a thought of what
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happened and then the confessions prove that." Okay. So, you had a theory and then you got people to confess to the
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theory that you thought was plausible. That's not how it works. That you should interview these guys and then if they do
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confess, that points your investigation into a certain direction. Now, this this
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is not proof of anything, but it's it's very interesting. So, at least I find it
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to be interesting. I think everybody will here. Before we started talking today, I gave you a picture in in in our
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uh fury here. You uh in frenzy, you may have you may have lost it, but um >> is it the one where you're you're hung
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just above the knees, >> right? >> If you shake my trousers down my trousers down, I'm just hung below
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the knees. >> Call me low knees, Nick. Um >> long ball, Larry. when they're talking
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when they're talking with Springsteen, one of the accused, and he's the one that ends up going on death row. And
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when they first sit him down years later, and they said, "Uh, you know, what were you doing that night?" And he
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goes, "Well, I was doing what I did almost every Friday and Saturday night. I went to the Rocky Horror Picture
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Show." And they go, "Well, you couldn't have." He, "Why not?" He says, "Well, it
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wasn't showing that night." Well, I gave you a picture and we'll put this on our
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our uh social as well. That's a lie. I mean, I have I have the newspaper advertisement of the Showtimes. You
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know, when when we were kids, you didn't have to get online. Um you would either
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call the movie theater to hear the Showtimes or you would look in your newspaper. And it's right here, North
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Cross 6 the at the North Cross Mall, >> right? >> And it says Rocky Horror Picture Show
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rated R midnight showing at midnight. So it doesn't mean that I'm not saying that
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this picture here means that they didn't kill the girls. I'm not saying that this
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picture here proves that he couldn't have been at the yogurt shop because he was at the Rocky Horror Picture Show
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because what we do know is when the flames were reported, so when the call goes in that there's a fire at the
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yogurt shop before they even know that anybody's dead, that call, we have the bus, we got the fire truck on the way at
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11:47 p.m. So, what do we know about that? We know the killers were gone from the yogurt shop and it was on fire at
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11:47 p.m. We know that the no sale button was recorded as being pressed to open up the
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register giving access to the money at 11:03 p.m. And this is something we went through extensively in our previous
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episodes. Here's the thing. you if you didn't, you got to go back and listen to those episodes. And we'll we'll give you
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some information on those on how easy it will be to find them here in a minute. But one of the things we went through
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was everything, all these horrible things that happened inside of that tiny little yogurt shop happened between
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11:03 p.m. and 11:47 p.m. That's not up for debate. There's so much [ __ ] that's
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up for debate in this case. That's not up for debate. That's those are facts. So everything that happened, every
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horrible thing that happened in that yogurt shop happened in the course of 44 minutes. Conceivably, could somebody
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have done that, set the place on fire, and then went the what, 2 miles from the yogurt shop to the North Cross Mall and
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gone and seen the Rocky Horror Picture Show at midnight? Absolutely. >> Right. But what we can say is that
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statement from police to Springsteen that got him jammed up real quick cuz you saw how quickly that frazzled his
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brain. that that that statement is not accurate when they say, "Well, it wasn't even showing that night, so you couldn't
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have been there." Well, it actually was. And I I have the newspaper here to prove
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it. Friday, December 6th, 1991, Northcross Mall, Northcross 6, Rocky Horror Picture Show, midnight. And we
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have to go a little deeper here. You have four individuals when they're talked to by law enforcement, almost all
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four of them say, "Well, what were we most likely doing? were probably hanging around the mall. What would be connected
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to the mall, the the cinema? So, it's not a definitive alibi by any means. My my argument against these four boys is
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if you went to the show, where's your receipt? It's not uncommon, especially during this time, you go to the movies
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that you kept your stuff. >> This doesn't come up until like seven years later, though. If they have a
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movie stub from seven years ago, I you know what I mean? So that that's where when Springsteen gets jammed up on this.
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>> No, I understand that. But I'm saying when they're initially questioned, if you have four individuals that you
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think were somewhere and they can prove that they're somewhere else and normally
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when you get a stick when you get a ticket stub, not only does it say, "Hey, Rocky Horror at midnight, the midnight
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showing, it normally also says when they printed out that ticket." So if that ticket was printed out at 11:30, that
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would almost be an alibi. >> So what I'm saying is I I get your point. It jams him up seven eight years
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later. But when they're initially questioned, I think there's >> But see, I would have to go back because
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I'm I'm not convinced that Michael Scott and Springsteen were even spoke to originally. remember they the the the
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whole idea of what happened days later when when Maurice Pierce is arrested with a gun in the mall when he spoke to
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their whole the police if they if they thought these guys were involved in any way shape or form it their theory then
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was completely different than what it was seven or eight years later. I'm not I I would have we would have to ask the
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officers, but I would want to dig through it. Maybe I'm misremembering or maybe there's a part of the docue series
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that I'm not remembering correctly, but I believe from everything I've reviewed that only Maurice Pierce and Forest were
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talked to back in 1991. Right. But if we just take their two statements, both of
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them were uh we're probably at the mall, two of them. So, if you do investigative
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work, if you do your freaking job and you call these four guys in, then we're going to get some kind of answer of
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where they're at. And it's it's not crazy to think that seven, eight years later that these kids don't remember
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what they were doing that night. >> Yeah. So, that's where they get jammed up is is when they're talking to him
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seven years later. And this is where you got to give Johnson some credit because
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he's like all four of the guys say that they were to they were together that night, but each one of the four says
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they were in a different place or doing a different activity. So he's like their
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alibi is no good because it would appear that all four of them yes they were together but three of them are either
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misremembering or incorrect or all four of them are misremembering or incorrect or all four of them are lying and they
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didn't know what lie the other one was going to tell us >> right >> and so that that's where you got to give
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Johnson correct where you where you really got to question the investigation early on and keep in mind they had so
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much stuff going on the you get the closer you go back. The more you go back and the closer to the actual murders,
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the more of a frenzied in investigation it is because you have everybody all these investigators getting torn and and
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pulled into 9,000 different um directions. >> Well, and I think it's I think it's a
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good move to pull Palano off the case because >> this individual was not interested in
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the truth. This in this individual was good at interrogation and getting people to just say whatever
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they thought he wanted to hear. >> Mhm. >> And again, it's pretty simple. We got
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these four individuals. If they were properly questioned and properly vetted within a month of the crime, we we
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wouldn't be sitting here with all these unanswered questions today. >> Well, we wouldn't have the I think one
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thing that has made this case way more complicated than it is or should be is are these four actually guilty? And for
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a lot of people in law enforcement and people close to this case, there's still people out there to this day that
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believe that the four these four guys did it, >> right? And I think there's some family
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members, which would be part of the fifth victims >> that still think that these guys are
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guilty. I again, we look at these cases through our lens. In my mind, I can't understand without physical torture
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somebody confessing to a crime, a heinous crime. Now, if you said, "Well, this uh this kid uh stole some bubble
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gum from the local corner shop and we brought him in for questioning and there's real there's really no penalty,
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no severe penalty." So, you got them to confess. Okay, I see that. My brain will
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always have a hard time wrapping its head around confessing to a heinous crime. >> Oh, yeah. Especially when we're talking
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about rape and murder and multiple murders. And it look, but here's the part where the docu series failed, I
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thought, because they really went into exploring false confessions. And I'm glad that they did because that's the
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most difficult part for me to wrap my head around, too. When I when I watch >> portions of Michael Scott
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confessing or >> or getting, you know, them dragging the confession out of him, when I watch
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portions of Springsteen going through the same thing, I say I'm like that they there's no way there's no way that they
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would say this. But where the docu series failed is they need to have those guy cuz what we what we don't understand
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what gets they're sitting down with the cops and both Scott and Springenstein believed that if I just tell them what
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they're trying to get me to say that at some point I'll get out of this room and
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then we can sort it out later. Like they'll hook me up to a lie detector. They'll they'll further investigate the
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things I said and they'll find out that that that I'm not correct because I mean
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you saw the part and they I wish they would have expanded on this part here because I've seen longer versions of
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these um interrogation and I that's what I call it. This this is an interrogation. This isn't questioning.
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Michael Scott is telling them over and over again. He's like I'm either lying or I don't know or I can't remember.
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can't remember. >> And it's like he's he's trying to tell everybody like I'm saying the [ __ ] you
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guys want me to say because I'm lying to you. I'm lying to you because I that's the only way I think that I'm getting
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out of this room. The docue series does talk and throw a lot of shade on, well, you know, the cops the cops are allowed
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to lie to you. The detectives are allowed to lie to you. And if you don't know that, well, then you're going to
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make a false confession. I don't give it. I don't care. I'm I'm totally fine with detectives lying to suspects. I'm
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totally fine with that. I have no problem with that at all. >> Right. >> And I I actually like that they can that
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they can lie to the suspect or the innocent person or or witness or whoever. I like that. Why? Because most
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of the people they talk to in interview are lying to them. So, let's keep let's keep it an even playing field here. What
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I don't well where I will not get on board with is when that cop takes the gun and pokes Scott in the back of the
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head with it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I cannot believe anything that comes any word that that poor man
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says after you stick a gun to his head. I can't believe any of it. I can't believe any of You can't do that. That's
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I I mean >> I question that individual's character and their integrity. And again, you you
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can lie. Sure. There's also ways about doing this job where you don't have to lie. You can give little bits of
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information that would imply something, but you don't have to flat out lie. But real quick, one of my problems with any
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of these confessions or any confession in general is if we have two killers. Well, have you ever gone to a party and
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then you come back from the party and your your friend says, "Oh man, you you almost got into a fight with this guy."
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And you go, "Well, I don't remember it that way." I mean, it got a little heated for a second, but their story
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becomes different than your story, right? So, that's first of all, also this notion that people commit crimes,
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especially a crime like this one. Let's just say hypothetically this was done by
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individuals that are more peers of the victim. These are not psychotic killers that are going around killing people for
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some demonic entity or some fantasy world that they made up in their mind. We know of cases where serial killers
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remember the victim's names and their height and what they smelled like and where they and they remember all these
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details. this to me if it if it is a killer of their peers, these people because it's a traumatic
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situation, even though it's a traumatic situation that they're causing, they're not going to remember all the details
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anyways. So, you got the whole, well, your story is going to be different than mine. And then, I didn't remember
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everything that happened. And then you have well after interrogation if you get these individuals so worked up and then
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afterwards you go hey let's take a lie detector test they're going to do shitty on the lie detector test. I mean this is
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one of the reasons why we don't interview certain individuals right after a crime because they're not in a
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good emotional state. So you're not going to get a good reading. And then you have another problem is that in
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confessions, people will lie to minimize their involvement. So you have all these things working
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against you, but on top of that, you have these law enforcement agents that don't have a
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level head. They lack character. And and I say lack character because I don't think these guys were interested in
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getting the truth for these victims. they were interested in getting a result that they already determined in their
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mind. >> Well, when when Jones says maybe I was too close to it, I actually think that
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the other guys, some of the other detectives were too close to it because I think that at some point I do think
00:25:06
that Johnson, and this is why I try not to fault him so much, I do think that Johnson really thinks that these four
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guys did it. And I think that that has that he's too close to it that he's got he he he locked into this idea and he's
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got blinders on. And remember the original when they originally speak with Pierce in Wellorn in in 1991 when when
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they originally speak with Pierce, the best they could get Pierce to agree to is that they drove up near the the
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yogurt shop uh up by the plaza and Forest said he wanted to do something with the gun.
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and he he let Forest out and Forest took the gun and then he went down to the creek with the with the skin heads.
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That's what Pierce told them. And then Pierce left that vehicle left with with Scott and Springsteen in it. And so
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that's what they were working originally. And we talked and I know I'm kind of going circling back to something
00:26:02
we've already discussed, but you know, they wired up Pierce and tried to get him to get Force to say that same stuff
00:26:09
on a recording and and that didn't happen. forced. It was like, "No, I was joking around, man." Um, you know that.
00:26:16
So, with Johnson though, it's like, uh, the fire information's wrong. Well, okay. Well, uh, here's an investigator
00:26:22
that says, "Well, maybe the fire did start on on the girls." It didn't. Okay. Well, the gun doesn't match multiple
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times. Well, the the the bullets are probably too damaged, right? >> No, that's not what other people were
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saying. The DNA doesn't match. Oh, well, it's contaminated. It's it's that's where I have a problem with Johnson.
00:26:44
It's like, dude, you've you've you've had time and time again science telling you that these these aren't the guys and
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you refuse to believe it. You you you have an answer for that. And it's and I I can understand that's one thing the
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docu series did great with with the with the DNA. They should have gone a little
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more into why it's not contaminated because I think there's still people walking around that believe that it
00:27:08
could be contaminated. Here's the deal. And I, you know, we recorded our other episodes years ago. You know, one in in
00:27:16
in 2021 when we did 30 years later, we went into some of this information here. And I
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tell I tell you what, if you want to know more about the the DNA and the investigation and and those parts, we
00:27:32
did a great job with that in in our 2021 coverage. >> That's goddamn right. We're giving
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ourselves a pat on the back. >> We did really good with in our first two episodes in 2017
00:27:46
where we received and thank you for the emails. I remember 2017 we got I we got all these emails and like your guys's
00:27:53
theory on on who did it is the best I've ever heard. We we kept pointing to the fact that there were two individuals
00:28:02
that were still in the yogurt shop when it was closing time. >> Right. Those two people have never been
00:28:08
identified. Those two people have never been talked to by police as far as we know. So what happened was that in their
00:28:16
investigation, they went back and they were able to identify and give names to every person that entered that walked in
00:28:23
and out of the yogurt shop that night with the exception of these two men. One thing the docu series doesn't talk about
00:28:31
is and here's the other problem. two men. Now, >> when these when the DNA doesn't match
00:28:38
any of these four guys, well, then you have Johnson go, "Well, there must have been a fifth guy with him." You know,
00:28:44
he's got two answers for the DNA. It's either contaminated or there was a fifth guy. No, no, no, no. We are looking for
00:28:51
two guys. There was two different types of There was two different male donors, if you want to. I hate that they call
00:28:58
that term. >> Uh there were two different rapists. Let's call them that. There were two
00:29:01
different rapists there that night in the yogurt shop. >> [ __ ] bags. >> You're looking for two guys. So you So
00:29:07
you're not looking for your fifth accomplice. You would be actually looking for number five and six. And I'm
00:29:14
here to tell you four people didn't kill these girls. Two guys did. Two guys killed the That's what the DNA tells us.
00:29:21
And why can I tell you that it's not contaminated? because there was other DNA that was found at that same scene
00:29:28
that was they were able to trace who it belonged to and confirm where it came from. So, if that if that DNA wasn't
00:29:34
contaminated, then it stands to reason that the other two wasn't as well. It was two guys that killed these four
00:29:40
girls. And I'm sorry to say this, too, but they didn't kill them for money. They didn't kill them for money. I'm
00:29:45
sorry. I wish I wish it would have been I wish these people would have been less
00:29:49
evil. I wish what was done to these girls was less cruel. But I'm convinced that these two guys saw two young girls
00:29:58
working behind the counter and s thought, you know what, we're going to stay in here tonight. We're going to do
00:30:03
some terrible [ __ ] And then oh, when they started to put things into motion, we didn't realize there were two other
00:30:09
girls in the back here. I think going off of my old notes here, Captain, I think it was $540 that was in the
00:30:15
register. They didn't do all this evil [ __ ] in 44 minutes for $540. They didn't. They This was This was
00:30:24
absolutely sexually motivated homicide. 100%. [Music] Oh, [Music] [Music] all right, we are back. Cheers, mates.
00:31:02
Thanks for telling your mother. Thanks for telling your brother. Tall can hands in the air.
00:31:08
Onward and upward. Heated Colonel. Spicy Colonel. >> I'm just praying that I can get out of
00:31:15
the garage today without before I have a heart attack. >> A couple things on on this
00:31:19
investigation. I I agree with you somewhat. You go. Well, we got this fire. This expert says it started here,
00:31:29
but this expert says it could have started this other place. Okay. Go ahead and call one of them not an expert
00:31:34
because I already explained why the fire didn't didn't start on the on the victims. But go ahead.
00:31:39
>> Right. But you you're also the one that said, "Well, I don't think it's a science." So if it's not a science, then
00:31:46
maybe it could have happened differently. And we're only getting this other information again from these
00:31:53
confessions. So it's an investigator trying to make it fit. But let's just give him the benefit of the doubt. Let's
00:31:59
say he's not trying to fit the narrative. You're just investigating it. I got these confessions. Some of what
00:32:04
they said is true and some of what they said is not true. But this fire thing, okay, it kind of there there's there's
00:32:12
two points of thought, so I just can rule that out. Moving on to the next one. All this gun, this gun evidence.
00:32:21
Well, one expert says this, this, the other this other expert says this other thing. Okay, just cross it off the list.
00:32:28
But there's more and more investigative work that you have to do. Once you find that this expert says this evidence is
00:32:37
right, a different expert says it's wrong, it's just in the nothing pile. And if you keep doing that, you get less
00:32:44
and less stuff pointing towards these four individuals. And again, it goes back to the initial interview that you
00:32:51
brought up that I think is really important. and you go, "Well, the initial confession was, well, I gave
00:32:57
this guy my gun and he left the car and we went somewhere else." I I think they just messed so many things up. And I
00:33:05
also think it's a it's a mistake sometimes to go, "Hey, we got $100,000. Come come give us your
00:33:13
tips." because the amount of nonsense tips that you have and unless you have all hands on deck and multiple, you
00:33:21
know, agencies working this case, you're not going to have the time or the effort
00:33:26
to track down all these quote unquote leads. >> I I can't get on board with that. I
00:33:32
mean, I know I said that in the Amy Bradley case, but that's that's a whole different scenario. You're you're
00:33:38
introducing a $100,000 $200,000 reward to a piss poor country. Sorry, but that's the situation filled with with
00:33:48
the population of that country. 95 90% of the people there poor. Like that's different than
00:33:54
>> No, I understand that. But I'm just saying if I was an investigator, I would stay away from it. I I think we've seen
00:34:01
uh in the yogurt shop murders, I don't know if that helped. And I don't think some of the of what they did in the Deli
00:34:08
murders case helped as well cuz they they were getting so many leads coming in from all over the place. I mean, one
00:34:16
of the leads that they show you in the documentary is is just some lady sitting there in their office going, "Well, my
00:34:24
theory is that they set the fires to cover up the crime." Like, no [ __ ] Sherlock. But and and all I'm saying is
00:34:34
you run the risk. Yes, you you could have a big payoff. Somebody could come forward with some more information and
00:34:42
maybe it would make more sense and I maybe I could get on board with it in the fact that you think it's more than
00:34:48
one individual and we have evidence that more than one individual. So the probability of them telling somebody
00:34:56
else is is more likely obviously. But I but I do think there was just so many freaking mistakes made.
00:35:03
>> The DNA evidence says it was two people that that that at least two people were
00:35:09
there that night. >> Yeah. I mean, I think the DNA evidence points to that and I think the gun
00:35:14
evidence points to that. >> And then there there's other people, you know, there's a a theory that has
00:35:20
somehow managed to stick around over all of these years and kind of float out there. And I don't know why it's not
00:35:27
been squashed and quashed, but because a 380 was involved that it that it was police. There are people that that think
00:35:36
that there's some kind of police involved that that police committed this crime. That's that didn't
00:35:43
happen. I mean, if if there were if there were some sexual deviant uh cops, then then maybe that's what happened.
00:35:51
Um, but I I really think it was still the two guys that were in there when they closed because
00:35:58
>> Yeah, but that could be a a cop that is not on duty. >> No, I I get that. I That's I wouldn't
00:36:04
expect it to be a police officer in uniform. Um, >> we have cases where law enforcement has
00:36:11
picked up >> Oh, no. I'm not I again I'm not saying that it's not a possibility. I said that
00:36:18
I said is if if you have a sexual deviant cop then yeah absolutely. But yeah, I mean that again, this is what
00:36:26
this is what aggravates me about the yogurt shop case is that it it gets it's easy for it to get very very complicated
00:36:36
and that's where everybody gets so far away from what actually happened. And and it's we're this case has been made
00:36:44
to be way more complicated than it absolutely needs to be. And that is why that in large part is why this case
00:36:52
hasn't been solved. >> Well, and and I I firmly believe that. And I think that and I don't it's so
00:36:58
difficult. I get it. It's so difficult. But you got to just be able to push this
00:37:03
crap aside cuz that's at the end of the day a lot of it is crap and you just got
00:37:08
to get to the bare bones of what we know happened. >> Yeah. And and to that point, I think one
00:37:16
of the things the documentary doesn't do well is all they're presenting is that there is there is a DNA sample from a
00:37:28
unknown male and they're not saying two men, >> right? That's why that's why if you want
00:37:34
to know a lot more about the the actual case, the investigation, what happened at the yogurt shop that night, that that
00:37:41
a lot of this stuff is not a mystery. >> Mhm. >> A lot of this stuff is known. It's been
00:37:46
documented and it can and it is well known to the people that have gone looking for it. I've gone looking for
00:37:52
it. We covered a lot of it in 2017, covered more in 2021, and we're dipping our toe again here today. But if
00:37:59
>> well I said online and I was telling you this before we started today was I watched the documentary then I rewatched
00:38:07
part three and part four. I was telling a bunch of people if you haven't seen this documentary it's well worth
00:38:15
watching. I do think it's well worth watching. But at the time I was thinking now it's probably a four and a half
00:38:22
bottle caps out of five. But after re-watching the third and fourth and just thinking about how they have this
00:38:30
platform 4 hours, they could have left un no stone unturned as far as getting out the information to the public. And I
00:38:41
think the more information you get out to the public, the more you're able to possibly get this case solved. But they
00:38:49
didn't do that. And I think they took more of a emotional stance. Again, it's not a bad documentary. I like the way it
00:38:57
was produced. I like that it was a little more raw than what has been coming out like the Amy Bradley case.
00:39:04
But again, goes back to the Amy Bradley um docue series. They just leave about a
00:39:10
bunch of [ __ ] out. You you you make a whole documentary and you don't explain that there's been a ton of other
00:39:17
sightings of Amy not in distress and Amy by herself and Amy not by her capttors.
00:39:24
Like why didn't you want to tell that part of the story? Why aren't you telling us in this documentary? Not only
00:39:31
do we have one sample of one man, we have another sample of a different >> Well, and that's the thing. We we've
00:39:36
talked about this on Off the Record plenty of times with with when we've had behind the scenes uh looks at at these
00:39:44
documentaries or these true crime shows and how they do things. They're they are
00:39:49
the Look, we may look at it as it's their job and their duty to tell us everything and do a really great
00:39:58
investigative piece. >> They're like the cops. they can lie to us, >> but they're but they the way they look
00:40:04
at it is they're creating something that's entertaining and not that they're doing an actual
00:40:11
investigative piece. And that's why that's why and and I'm not trying to be some nerd or some snob or something when
00:40:18
it comes to these cases, but that's why I've I often say like I don't watch much true crime
00:40:26
on TV. I don't because I I've never very few times have I found it to take me to
00:40:32
the next level on a case. I liked this docue series because this case is one that I always kind of return to. The
00:40:41
reason why I liked the docu series was it fired me up and it got me looking at the case again. Often times I'll watch a
00:40:48
docu series or or if I happen to catch a show on something that a case that we've
00:40:53
covered. 95% of the time, man, it never it never inspires me to go back and look
00:40:58
at the case. >> Yeah. But I think you would agree with this sentiment. I think these documentaries are really
00:41:06
important if you are if you're unfamiliar with the location. I think any armchair
00:41:15
detective out there, if you're fascinated with a case, if you're trying to solve a case, and I know to some
00:41:22
people listening out there, that's silly. Oh, these armchair detectives think they're going to solve stuff.
00:41:30
Well, they they help out a lot more than I think they're ever going to get credit
00:41:34
for. But I do think it's really important to see to visually see the crime scenes to vis visually see these
00:41:43
different locations. I mean, you learn a lot about the layout of this location. Not so much about the inside of the
00:41:53
location cuz that's been covered a lot, but you learn a lot about the parking lot and behind and the and the creek and
00:42:00
how it's not that far from the mall. I mean, you you do learn a lot about the location. I think that's why it's
00:42:08
important, but again, it's very frustrating when you and and I'll make this statement. It's very frustrating to
00:42:15
me because when I watch a documentary and you think you've learned so much and then you start diving in, you realize
00:42:21
how much they left out. But most of the time when I read a true crime book, I'm not walking away doing a deep dive and
00:42:29
finding a ton of new information, unless it's a very old book. Correct. Yeah, you
00:42:33
usually don't put down the book and go, I wonder what they chose to leave out. But yeah, so again, thanks for the
00:42:39
emails when we covered it in 2017, but truth be told, that theory, as great as it sounds, um, and as convincing as it
00:42:48
may have been in 2017, it's the one that I still stick to. But that wasn't ours.
00:42:52
We didn't come up with that on our own. That was actually >> Well, I didn't. that well no it came
00:42:59
it was the one of the defense teams actually came up with that and it was it was a group of people that worked on
00:43:06
that and it wasn't just to defend one of the accused. It was also um it involved
00:43:13
I I believe a magazine or some periodical. I I can't remember which. I I'm sure we probably said it in 2017. I
00:43:21
think that's still the best theory that's out there. Then regarding the fifth suspect, right, the Well, it has
00:43:28
to be a fifth guy. Episode True Crime Garage episode 529, the Beatatric 6. The Beatatric 6. Listen to that episode
00:43:38
because And I think that was part of Mind Over Murder or something like that. I And you know what? Here's what I
00:43:45
wondered. I I wasn't going to go watch that because again, read the book on it. It that's another HBO docu series and I
00:43:52
think they did six episodes. So, here's what I wondered about, Captain. The yogurt shop is four episodes. Four
00:43:58
victims, four accused. Did they just do four episodes? Because four, four, four, it kind of fits like
00:44:06
the Beatatric Six. Six people accused, they did six episodes. I I think to tell the in in HBO's defense to tell the full
00:44:17
story and really examine the yogurt shop murders the way that I think it should be examined would be about 8 to 10
00:44:23
episodes and maybe they just didn't have just weren't able to dedicate that much
00:44:28
to it. I hope that they didn't pick the four episodes because there's four victims and four accused. I hope that
00:44:35
they didn't pick six episodes for the Beatatric 6 because there were six that were just because of the number
00:44:41
>> is already there for them. Um because here's the thing, we told the Beatatric
00:44:46
6 story in about an hour's time. We've we're we're probably what 6 hours on yogurt shop easily.
00:44:56
>> Yeah. So here but back to the Beatatric 6. So, in Beatatric, Nebraska, 68-year-old Helen Wilson was murdered
00:45:08
and they had DNA in her case. So, what happened was they arrest the wrong person, get this person to give a false
00:45:15
confession, and then years then as time goes by, they figure out that the DNA doesn't match this person. Well, then
00:45:23
the investigator is like, "Cool. That means they had an accomplice. So there has to be a second person involved that
00:45:29
matches the DNA. So they arrest another person, get a confession out of them. That DNA doesn't match them either. This
00:45:36
happens till they get six people. The DNA matches none of them. Like when are you going to stop just pulling in people
00:45:42
and tying them and saying, "Well, what a whole half a dozen, more than a half a dozen people broke into this home in the
00:45:49
middle of the night and did this." That's what the investigator came up with. That's the best that they could
00:45:55
come up with when the DNA didn't match. Didn't match. Didn't match. It doesn't match here either. It doesn't mean there
00:46:01
was a fifth guy. It doesn't mean there was a sixth guy. >> It was two people that murdered all four
00:46:06
of these victims. Maybe there was a third one there, but I I I would wager Franklin that it was two people. Now, I
00:46:15
wanted to make sure we included a couple things before. Well, I think you could make some argument that we have two
00:46:23
individuals that were in the yogurt shop around the time the yogurt shop was closing. This is definitive by
00:46:31
eyewitnesses. >> Yes. >> But then also what is a possibility is that these individuals left through the
00:46:38
back. So one could argue >> they unless they climb through the ceiling, they left through the back
00:46:44
door, >> right? And so I think somebody could argue well maybe there was a individual
00:46:50
in a car that you know once everything started going down that they moved the car around to the back and then they
00:46:56
picked him up. Someone could make that argument. What is fascinating though is the fire
00:47:04
should have and could have destroyed all evidence. The water could have and should have destroyed all evidence, but
00:47:13
it's a miracle that it didn't. And we have two samples. So that's the minimum, right?
00:47:20
>> Yeah. And I, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if the K, so I think the killers walked in through the front
00:47:26
door. I think they were there when it closed. And when you have two guys that are there at closing time that have not
00:47:32
been identified, have never come forward. The no sale button is pressed at 11:03. Like those two things
00:47:39
happening in that quick succession and them not being the killers. That's a difficult hurdle to clear.
00:47:47
>> I agree. >> That's a very diff. And then 44 minutes later the place is burning and
00:47:53
everybody's dead. Total chaos. Total what did Jones call it? Wholesale carnage. 44 minutes later. I wouldn't be
00:48:00
sh They they they went in through the front door during the time that the store was open. They stayed there when
00:48:06
it was closed. They set things into motion. Pulled the gun on one of the girls and left the CocaCola in the cup
00:48:14
on the counter. That's what set that into motion. When she turned, I think they ordered a Coke. One of them said,
00:48:20
"Hey, I'll take a Coke before we leave." And when she turned around that, boom, gun in the face. And that started
00:48:26
everything. They left out the back door after they set the place on fire. I wouldn't be shocked if they lived in
00:48:32
those apartments that were over there. I wouldn't be shocked if they arrived on foot. If there if there was no car, no
00:48:38
driver, and if there was a third guy, great. I mean, maybe you could sell me on that, but I I have a hard time
00:48:45
believing that the air quotes getaway driver waited outside in a car for for an hour for No, I'm not saying you. I
00:48:52
just There's other people that presented this. I have a hard time thinking that the getaway driver just sat out there
00:48:57
patiently for an hour >> waiting on these guys. >> Yeah. Yeah. And my gut feeling because
00:49:02
of on the movements of these individuals because we don't have eyewitnesses talking about
00:49:09
>> we have eyewitnesses talking about these two individuals that were seen in the
00:49:13
yogurt shop. >> Mhm. >> We don't have these eyewitnesses of of some car driving away from the the
00:49:21
scene, you know, erratically and because of the age of the victims. It's just my
00:49:26
hunch, but I'm saying that this individual is closer to their age as opposed to being in their 30s or 40s.
00:49:34
This is just my >> and the FBI profile will agree with you on that. the FBI. >> I did not know that. But um
00:49:40
>> and so the here's the thing real quick before with the books. If you want to know a lot more about what happened that
00:49:48
night, what they do know absolutely happened that night at the yogurt shop, you have to read Beverly Lowry's book,
00:49:54
Who Killed These Girls? If you want to know more about, and I apologize to Corey Mitchell for saying this, he's
00:50:01
he's a great true crime author, but some of his information in the early part of
00:50:07
his book, Murdered Innocence, is just factually wrong. Like a couple but but in his his book came out about a more
00:50:16
than a decade before Yogurt Shop before Who Killed These Girls did. So Beverly Lowry had access to better information.
00:50:23
>> Yeah. She had the advantage. Yeah. He reports in early in the book that one of
00:50:28
the witnesses who spoke at length with law enforcement stated that he overheard one of the girls, there was a boy that
00:50:35
went to the back of the store. And police have always been interested in that that young man. I call him a boy,
00:50:40
but he's he's not a young man. He goes to the back of the store. Yes, you should be concerned about him because
00:50:46
their theory on how the four guys that they accused of doing it two that they actually took to trial was that that boy
00:50:55
who went to the back was one of these four guys and that what they did was they unlocked the back door so they
00:51:01
could go in through the back door as soon as the store closed. That makes sense. It's it's a could be. But he
00:51:12
reports something as the witness overheard one of the the worker girls telling this young man that he tried to
00:51:21
order a Coke and she says we only have Sprite. Well, we know that that's not correct because we know that there was a
00:51:27
a Coke that was on the counter after the fire was put out. So, we do know that they had Coca-Cola. So, there's there's
00:51:34
some details in there that are questionable about what he reports of that night. But again, he limited
00:51:41
information. What you want to read murdered innocent by Corey Mitchell for is he goes way into very deep into the
00:51:51
the me the two Mexican men that were that were arrested and were that that said they were tortured by Mexican
00:51:58
authorities. He goes way nobody else goes that deep into that portion of the story, which was a huge deal at the time
00:52:05
because everybody thought that they had solved Yogurt Shop. I know that the docue series doesn't talk much about it,
00:52:11
but that was a huge deal in this story. And that was shortly after the murders. And again, we talked about this already
00:52:19
in our conversation here today that it wasn't those Mexican guys cuz they their details, even when it was beat out of
00:52:24
them, were incorrect. Yeah. But that's the problem. If you do things that aren't ethical, putting a gun to the
00:52:33
back of a suspect's head, uh, beating and trying to beat information out of these individuals, then this person
00:52:43
always has a defense. And so I would love to say, well, these these three individuals, they're not responsible.
00:52:50
These the the guys that were um deported back to Mexico, that they're not involved at all. What? I can't say that
00:52:58
100%. But what I can say is I don't have that answer because the situation wasn't
00:53:05
handled correctly. >> Yeah. And see, that's again this it's over complicating this case. The DNA
00:53:11
tells us that the four that were accused didn't do it. And I know that that's it's it's very difficult for people to
00:53:17
and even myself. I circle back on times and go, well, maybe that then I have to remind myself, no, the DNA says they
00:53:25
didn't do it. And again, so if these four were involved, now you have to have two more people. You have to have six
00:53:31
people that did this. And six people didn't do this. Four people didn't do this. The Mexicans that were arrested
00:53:39
and confessed to it didn't do it. Certain that this DNA information tells us more. I mean,
00:53:46
sometimes the DNA will tell you, well, it it is a it's a man. We know the sample is from a male and we know that
00:53:54
the sample is from a white man. Do do we do we have information? >> No. >> That we know that comes from the DNA
00:54:03
sample other than it's a man. >> It's no other than it's two men, >> right? Sorry, I I misspoke.
00:54:09
>> No, that's as far as what's been released to the public. Now, I I can't say that they don't have more than this,
00:54:15
but everything I've examined only we only know that it's it was two men. We we don't know ethnicity. We don't know
00:54:23
their background. You know, they can do the um >> snapshot DNA is the lay term for it, but
00:54:29
wanted to real quick read two two things here. the holdback information, which you can see very quickly that the the
00:54:38
investigators created a list of 13 pieces of evidence that they were going to hold back. You
00:54:45
can see even in the docue series how quickly a lot of this information leaked out. But what's interesting about this
00:54:51
hold back information, the reason why we know it today is because two of them went to trial. And so ultimately some of
00:54:57
these smaller details came out eventually. So all 13 pieces of holdback information are now public if if you
00:55:06
want to review them, it's in Beverly Lowry's book. And so straight from her book one, how and where the fire was
00:55:12
started was hold back. So they know or at least they firmly believe how and where it was started.
00:55:18
>> Right? >> So you don't need to go back to a different expert and get them to say
00:55:23
something differently. This was part of your holdback information from the very beginning, how and where it was started.
00:55:29
Now, what what's what's interesting to me is I I would hold my hand to God and swear that I know where the fire was
00:55:36
started. How it was is interesting. Do was there some type of accelerant? If there was, do they know what that
00:55:43
accelerant was? Uh number two, the key in the front door there. That's how we know that they had already started their
00:55:50
closing duties. They stuck the key in the front door. How much money was taken? That wasn't that was never made
00:55:57
public. I believe that I've dug it up and I think it was $540. Number four, how the girls bodies were
00:56:03
arranged. We now know that that's been public obviously and that that started to leak out very quickly. What was used
00:56:10
to bind the girls, their own clothing, we know that that the office was not entered. The office was not entered.
00:56:17
That's why I'm telling you this is a sexually motivated homicide, not robbery motivated homicide. If money was their
00:56:24
number one concern and they got distracted by rape and torture, murder, they would have then maybe they just
00:56:32
lost their minds and didn't go into the the office. If robbery was the number one motive, they would have figured they
00:56:39
would have entered that office looking for more money and valuables. They didn't. The office was never entered.
00:56:45
That the office key was still underneath the cash register. So, the girls had access to this key to get into the
00:56:51
office. the caliber of weapons, which of course we know is a 22 and 380. That two
00:56:57
pairs of the victim's underpants were missing. They never recovered two pairs of underwear from the scene. They're
00:57:04
gone. That Amy's leather bomber jacket is missing. Her leather coat, her leather jacket gone. One of the killers
00:57:13
took it. Trophy. Amy's Amy was bruised under her chin from a blow of some kind. So, that's where they got Springsteen to
00:57:22
say that he hit her, >> right? >> Uh 12, that Amy was strangled and what she was strangled with. 13. That Amy was
00:57:30
shot twice with two different caliber of guns. That was the original holdback information. Now, to your credit, my
00:57:36
friend, my dear captain, the FBI profile. Oh, I do want to give a we got to say something here. I found this to
00:57:44
be incredibly awesome. So the FBI agent that was brought in to lead the FBI agents that the mind hunters if you will
00:57:52
that were brought in to put together this profile, the leader was Judson Ray. Okay, that or Jud Ray, some people just
00:58:00
call him Jud Ray. Judson Ray, that name may sound familiar to you because when we covered the Forces of Evil killer, he
00:58:09
was part of that investigation. And in fact, when we've talked Mine Hunter the series before, the character Jim Barney
00:58:18
from series from the second series is based off of Judson Jud Ray, the African-American FBI agent at the
00:58:26
Atlanta field office. So, I I thought that that was cool that the uh they they didn't just bring in somebody we've
00:58:32
never heard of. They brought in Judson Ray was part of this outfit that put together this profile and it reads more
00:58:40
than one person was involved. One of them with a dominant personality. Keep in mind they had no DNA when this was
00:58:46
put together. This was put together in 1992. The asalants are probably white in their late teens to mid20s. See you uh
00:58:56
were you working for Judson Ray? Um, >> Judson was working for me, but I I'm learning stuff throughout the years.
00:59:02
>> The one with the dominant personality in all probability did not finish high school in school. Would have been
00:59:09
considered an underachiever with less than average grades. Resents discipline. Would have been a discipline problem for
00:59:18
school officials and parents. Has an explosive personality. Angers easily, especially when drinking alcohol or
00:59:25
using drugs. An impulsive person who acts without considering the consequences will engage in physical
00:59:33
confrontation only when he has the advantage. Will not engage in any confrontation with an adult male without
00:59:40
friends present. Probably unemployed or working in a menial job. Will have a history of changing jobs. Is not
00:59:49
dependable as an employee with a high degree of absenteeism. lives in a dependent relationship with
01:00:00
an older person, possibly a parent, frequents the area of the ICBY shop, familiar with the streets and stores in
01:00:10
the area, probably a resident of neighborhood. Wow, I haven't read this in a long time. I And I referenced those
01:00:17
apartments earlier. I I think I think that there's a good chance that that person is in that area, was in that area
01:00:27
in late 91. Probably has a criminal record, may be abusive to women, may seek out women who are younger and less
01:00:35
adequate than himself. Has no remorse about killing the victims, but is under tremendous stress from fear of
01:00:42
apprehension because crime may not have gone as planned. also very concerned about loyalty of his accompllices
01:00:50
because they may be feeling regret. Disharmony may be developing between the offenders as stress level rises as well
01:00:59
as increased paranoia because of which they may maintain close contact with each other in order to keep a close
01:01:06
watch. In time, this may change into a falling out leading to violence. Number four, immediately after leaving the
01:01:15
crime scene, offenders would have gone to a secure location to clean up or change clothes, although the crime scene
01:01:20
does not indicate they would have had a lot of blood on them. Five offenders may
01:01:26
have returned to the area that night to watch police and fire departments or they may have left town, may have missed
01:01:34
some work days. End of profile. And of course, that describes thousands and thousands of people. But, you know, if
01:01:40
they were local to the to the level of being in the neighborhood, they could have easily watched the fire department
01:01:48
and the police trying to make heads or tails of that horrible, horrible crime scene.
01:01:58
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