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GameChanger [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
00:01:41
you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me is always is a man that
00:01:46
rightfully so describes himself as a young bearded Rockefeller he is the captain cuz I'm getting money like a
00:01:53
bank teller it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for listening thank thanks for telling the
00:02:01
[Music] frame tonight we are drinking pallet jack by the hardworking people at Barley
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Browns in beautiful Baker City Oregon garage grade four out of five bottle caps a blend of three hops make up this
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IPA with flavors of citrus tropical fruit and a little bit of Pine and pallet jack was brought to us by you
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wonderful listeners and these hardworking people first up we have kin who says words cannot describe how much
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but not least we have Matt from walnut tree buckinghamshire United Kingdom so thanks everybody for filling up the
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go to True Crim garage.com and click on the Donate button if you'd like to follow us on social media Facebook
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Twitter Instagram you can find us at True Crime garage all right that's enough of the business everybody gather
00:03:12
around grab a chair be a dork be a geek let's talk some true [Music] crime as we sit here today Captain young Kiren
00:03:37
Horman he has been missing for seven years he's been missing since that last day that he was seen at his school on a
00:03:45
Friday June 4th 2010 last spotted by his stepmother who said that she saw him walking to his
00:03:53
classroom he's reported missing and now we're left here Captain wondering what happened to this little boy really when
00:04:01
you when you narrow it down there are three options right we have option A kir the little boy left left the school on
00:04:10
his own wandered off somewhere there was yeah eight access points in and out of this school building he was spotted near
00:04:19
one of those at the around the last time that he was seen um we also have option
00:04:24
b that he was taken by a total stranger and option C that somebody within his inner circle is responsible
00:04:33
for why he disappeared well the search effort was huge yeah and it happened quickly and so it seems like option A
00:04:41
doesn't make a lot of sense I think we would have found him by now and even if he left the school and an accident
00:04:47
happened I think we would have found his body by now yeah because we have a situation like you said very quickly
00:04:53
after he went missing within seven or eight hours the searches the Searchers are out and the initial search lasted
00:05:01
over 10 days and was regarded as one of the largest in the state's history uh with more than 1300 people from Oregon
00:05:09
Washington and Northern California looking for the boy uh they checked a 2-mile radius around the skyline school
00:05:16
that he attended and also parts of Savi Island we both agree that theory a with Kiren just leaving doesn't make a lot of
00:05:23
sense but Theory B somebody grabbing him could be a good possibility yeah well and we have this situation here Captain
00:05:31
which it it sucks I mean to to sum it up in into one big word it sucks because what's going on that day it's a very
00:05:40
very busy day at that school uh regarded by most the teachers as the busiest day
00:05:46
of their school year yeah it's their science fair in the morning and then we have a talent show in the afternoon and
00:05:53
guess what if you are some terrible person and you're looking to grab a kid well there's a big sign out in front of
00:06:03
the school that says on this date we're having a science fair from this hour to this hour and we're having a talent show
00:06:10
from this hour to this hour the school is basically open somewhat open to the public I mean they're not expecting
00:06:17
random people to just walk in the school but they have the school open at this time open early so that parents and
00:06:23
students can tour the science fair yeah and I'd argue that maybe it's not some random person because yeah they're
00:06:30
they're advertising that there's this science fair but you don't know how heavily chaperon this is going to be mhm
00:06:36
um but yeah it is up open to the public the other thing too is if you had any information about the students and about
00:06:43
the school you'd also know that the school wasn't under surveillance MH so that gives you a opportune window yes
00:06:51
and the thing here is though while this is a possible scenario it seems it does seem a little unlikely to me and and
00:06:59
I'll tell you why okay he's he's seven we have a seven-year-old boy we have no evidence leading us down this road we
00:07:07
have nobody saying you know I saw Kiren with some strange person or I or he was heard yelling and screaming because
00:07:15
somebody grabbed him and pulled them into his vehicle yeah you would think that this would be a safe place for
00:07:21
Kiren so if somebody did grab him that he would feel safe enough to be able to scream for help uh so the likelihood
00:07:30
that there was all these eyewitnesses that didn't see Kyon leaving with some strange person it's kind of weird yeah
00:07:37
and I and I know there's people out there listening that are going you know he's only seven and yes we've covered
00:07:42
cases before and so it is a possibility that he could have been L to somebody's vehicle that he got into the vehicle
00:07:49
willingly he is only seven um that is somewhat of a possibility but I think the obvious possibility and most likely
00:07:57
possibility here and it seemed to be what the police really honed in on early into the investigation and search for
00:08:04
Kiren is that somebody within his inner circle was involved in this disappearance well with all these
00:08:09
allegations and weird speculations about the stepmother it's kind of clear that we need to dive into her as a possible
00:08:18
suspect I agree and I think we what we should do is just kind of point out the different suspicious behaviors along the
00:08:24
way and kind of dive into those as they as we go through our list now just to be
00:08:30
clear she has never been named a suspect uh but she has never been cleared as well correct so as we said the police
00:08:38
became suspicious when they searched uh Terry horman's cellular phone records and it was revealed that she wasn't
00:08:45
where she said she was the morning that Kiren disappeared this is what led to the whole Savi Island thing which is
00:08:53
about 5 6 miles from Kiron school this led to a massive search of the island for the missing boy but again no trace
00:09:01
of Kiren and with this piece of evidence it made me wonder was it just a area that you would drive on to and you
00:09:07
wouldn't know but our listeners have reached out and said hey if you know that area and you know Savi Island that
00:09:13
once you're on it you know you're on the island yeah yeah and just to be clear it's a River Island but it is a rather
00:09:21
large uh piece of land uh but like you said and and like we speculated in episode one it would be tough to end up
00:09:28
on an island entally and not be able to recall that you were there now Terry's statements the Stepmom statements to
00:09:35
police indicate that after leaving the school at 8:45 a.m. the day that Kiren went missing she ran errands at a local
00:09:43
grocery store this is the Fred Meyer store until about 10:10 a.m. and then from 10:10 a.m. to 11:39 a.m. she states
00:09:53
that she drove her daughter around town in in an attempt to use the motion of the vehicle to soothe the toddler's
00:10:01
earache um Terry then went to a local gym at approximately 1139 a.m. and she says that she worked
00:10:11
out that day until about 12:40 p.m. by 1:21 she had arrived home some other information that we kind of asked for
00:10:19
from you guys was is it odd to drive a kid around that long it's kind of half and half some people said Ah that's not
00:10:27
that long especially if the kid is sick maybe you drive around longer and then the other half would say that is way too
00:10:34
long um so where was was she driving around we're not really for sure but what is odd about this and what so many
00:10:41
listeners pointed out was your kid is sick you drive your kid around for an hour and a half and then you decide to
00:10:47
take the kid to the gym with you right seems like your if your kid is that sick that you're skipping the gym and just
00:10:54
head in home yeah so I I love that response that we got from the listeners because that's a very big question mark
00:11:01
you don't drive that kid around for an hour and a half and then put her in the the daycare center at the gym to be
00:11:08
amongst other kids if this kid was so uncomfortable and so sick and you were truly worried trying to soothe this sick
00:11:15
child you're taking that child home after you after you get her to fall asleep or like other listeners pointed
00:11:21
out you would continue driving around so that the child would sleep as long as possible this obvious obviously Captain
00:11:28
leaves us with quite a window of time where something could have happened where she could have been not where she
00:11:35
said she was and then there's also a little dispute about actually how long she was at the gym we know that she was
00:11:44
at the gym at 1139 because she has to check in the problem is we have other people saying I did see her at the gym
00:11:51
but I don't I don't remember seeing her for an hour I don't remember seeing her after noon uh where she says that she
00:11:58
was there till 12:40 p.m. this is another window of time where something could have happened yeah it's weird with
00:12:04
the eyewitness accounts of her being at the grocery store and the eyewitness accounts of saying that she was at the
00:12:10
gym again makes me wonder is she trying to establish a alibi MH well and I'll tell you what here Captain I think for
00:12:18
this one if you want to keep score at home or you're keeping score in your garage regarding Terry's involvement in
00:12:25
kyon's disappearance I think for the for this for her whereabouts and what she was actually doing that
00:12:32
day look I I I have to believe that this points a little more towards the end of
00:12:39
she was involved in this I can't I can't give her a check mark for nope this clears her you know nope she wasn't
00:12:47
involved I I'm I'm not ready to finalize that pencil Mark yet but I think it leans in the direction of her
00:12:54
questionable questionable behavior and me questioning where she actually was that day yeah I agree the second item
00:13:02
that I wanted to get to is that she was interrogated by detectives um and we know that she was questioned several
00:13:08
times uh for several hours they were also looking for physical evidence of Foul Play in the vehicle that she was
00:13:16
driving that day remember she was driving Kane's truck uh when she dropped kirn off at school um a lot of people
00:13:24
would say that this points to her being suspicious and to being being guil of something the problem here is um they
00:13:32
found nothing incriminating after all those searches and all those times questioning her yeah
00:13:38
which would point in her favor yeah let's give her a check mark in her favor there then third we have she reportedly
00:13:46
took and failed two polygraph test right and then she denied a third one yeah this does not look good for her at all
00:13:53
in my opinion we heard her defend herself stating that she could not hear the person very well that was
00:14:00
administering the test uh she then said that the second test she failed because it seemed like they were rushing her
00:14:08
through the test that that they didn't conduct it properly but then you have a third time where she just all out
00:14:15
refuses to take the test this is certainly a check mark against Terry Horman yeah I agree for the most part
00:14:23
but again I don't know the extent of her hearing issue and we've we've heard from
00:14:28
experts that if you have a hearing problem this could really affect the results of a
00:14:32
polygraph test so again I you know but it's hard to believe what she says because she is a known liar she is a
00:14:40
known cheater and uh I don't agree with those things this to me and I agree with
00:14:45
you Captain and the expert is right but this points to me as the first signs obvious signs that's told to the public
00:14:55
of her not cooperating in the investigation and you know I'm always very suspicious and I think we all
00:15:01
should be of anybody that's not cooperating in an investigation yeah I agree again not fully because yes I
00:15:11
think you should cooperate with law enforcement I think you should tell them any information that you know but
00:15:16
there's a difference between them asking you questions and then them Throwing Shade your way and I think if they're
00:15:22
doing so I mean it's the smartest move lawyer up um that doesn't mean it doesn't mean that you can't cooperate
00:15:29
that doesn't mean that you can't talk with law enforcement but you're going to do so in the presence of your um cuz
00:15:35
you're going to be able to tell your story to your lawyer and based on what you tell your lawyer they're going to
00:15:40
know what they can uh what you should share with law enforcement well and then here's the big one here's the big marker
00:15:48
right here everybody the big turtle yeah we got a giant red neon arrow pointing to this situation so 22 days after
00:15:56
kiran's disappearance detect Ives told Kane Horman kyon's father that his wife Terry about 5 months before Kiron went
00:16:05
missing had asked a landscaper named rodulfo Sanchez to kill her husband so you picturing this situation thank you
00:16:15
Mr Sanchez for coming out to my property today I would like for you to Edge the flower beds cut the grass and roll my
00:16:21
husband up in this rug and dump him in a landfill mhm and then Kane was like we have landscaper
00:16:29
yeah I don't know this is the this is the piece of evidence like if somebody said to me right now like I can have a
00:16:36
question answered I mean obviously the you know where is kirn that would be the main question but if I couldn't have
00:16:42
that answered and I just needed to have a few things answered to lead me to the truth this would be the one yeah this is
00:16:50
the one because and you actually brought it up and I don't like to admit when you do
00:16:57
smart things but it was something I didn't think about at all and as we dove into seems like hundreds of cases now
00:17:06
that you know it's something that you would think that I would have learned through time but this is a big key
00:17:12
people throw this girl under the bus all the time and yeah she has done some shady things morally but this is the one
00:17:20
where they go if she's capable of trying to hire somebody to murder her husband then she's capable of kidnapping and
00:17:29
possibly murdering her stepson or hiring somebody to do it so but here's the problem that I have with it and I never
00:17:40
would have thought of it unless you came up with the idea was the cops do not tell Caine about this till after the guy
00:17:49
goes missing right so then when did the landscaper report this to the cops did he report it to him five months ago or
00:17:58
did he see something on the news and said oh my God this kid went missing that's the lady that tried to hire me to
00:18:05
kill her husband right and I'm glad you opened up that door because we did speak
00:18:10
about this and we've touched upon this in the previous episodes there's so many different versions of this story out
00:18:17
there that it's very confusing and the best that I can nail it down I'm I'm I've thrown out a lot of junk over the
00:18:24
last days mhm on this case and regarding this story but the best I can nail it down is this is how the situation worked
00:18:33
okay the police were not told of this murder for H plot until after Kiron had disappeared yes this uh he goes by Rudy
00:18:43
so we'll go we'll say Rudy Sanchez Rudy Rudy Rudy Rudy yeah I believe that's his
00:18:48
nickname and he he approached the police and said look the lady on the news that's you know involved in this family
00:18:56
with this disappearance um she tried to hire me to kill her husband okay well how do you know this lady Terry Horman
00:19:04
um well I worked for her and that was a debate that you and I had had because when you hear the word landscaper and
00:19:11
somebody worked for somebody you automat automatically kind of assume that it's kind of sometime some type of
00:19:18
longterm uh interaction or agreement that they have um and then we have Kane who says well I didn't even know we had
00:19:26
a landscaper yeah so the situation is this they actually had a fairly big property I believe it
00:19:32
was about 2 and 1/2 to 3 acres and it sounds to me like Kane had decided that James James being a teenager this is
00:19:43
Terry's biological son and Kane's stepson he's decided that James should be responsible for the yard work for the
00:19:52
maintenance of this property well I guess Terry decided that this is too big of a chore for a child yes he's a
00:20:00
teenager but he's still a child and I think that she probably felt that this was unfair and so unbeknownst to her
00:20:08
husband she hired this landscaper to do a lot of the maintenance on the property
00:20:14
she probably kept him working there you know when her husband wasn't there right
00:20:20
um and it was probably just as simple as that this I don't know what this all entailed it could have been a situation
00:20:26
where he only worked for her hand handful of days um or it could have been something a little more long term now
00:20:33
the the way that the story goes according to Mr Sanz is that she had met him at a
00:20:40
restaurant where there she was speaking to him about her husband Cain and she tells Mr Sanchez that Cain is mentally
00:20:50
and physically abusive to her and at some point she starts telling him that you know Kane carries about
00:20:58
$10,000 cash on him at all times and he also has a laptop that he walks around with you know somebody could kill him
00:21:06
and make it look like a mugging and run off with that money now the problem here
00:21:12
is when when pressed further by the police Mr Sanchez does State at no time did she ever technically offer me money
00:21:22
to kill her husband at no time does she say the words I will give you $10,000 if
00:21:27
you murder my husband no he just says she kept kind of implying it she kept kind of leading me down that road now
00:21:37
they don't have a chance to investigate this obviously until after Kiron has disappeared by this point she's probably
00:21:43
Terry's probably on high alert they send in some guy you know an undercover dude
00:21:49
bit of a sting operation to try to talk to Terry again about this murder for high plot and she basically jumps out of
00:21:56
the situation and says says I don't know what you're talking about I want nothing
00:22:00
to do with this right so again if if this thing went down she gets out of it pretty easy yeah or she had nothing to
00:22:08
do with it right I mean there is a possibility that she hired this guy she said a couple stupid things to and he
00:22:16
took the wrong way uh he didn't if he really felt strongly about it I think he would have came to the police before and
00:22:24
then we've seen multiple times with missing person cases and especially when it's a missing kid case some weird
00:22:31
people get involved yeah I agree well Mr Sanchez says that you know not only did
00:22:36
she use this uh Kane always has $10,000 on him approach uh to trying to convince
00:22:42
him to kill Kane but she also used her sexuality and you know bringing up the fact that well not the fact but bringing
00:22:51
up her story of Kane being an abusive person now on on Terry's side and her defense what she would say regarding
00:22:59
this is that the relationship with the landscaper their their you know working relationship together ended when she
00:23:09
turned down sexual advances by Mr Sanchez and she also states that she could at most times could not understand
00:23:18
Mr Sanchez there was a you know things that would get lost in translation let's say well and also she possibly has bad
00:23:25
hearing yeah and so she couldn't understand him and she believed that there were many times that they had
00:23:31
conversations where he could not understand her as well and I think this piece of evidence for me if this came
00:23:38
out or the police were notified about this 5 months before the kid went went missing then I'd I'd believe it more I'm
00:23:46
not saying that I don't believe it but I just would believe it more yeah well I wish it had come out 5 months before uh
00:23:53
Kiren went missing because I have a feeling that had it we might not be sitting here looking
00:23:59
for Kiren at this point right and the other tough thing about this too is from the you know from the get-go of the
00:24:06
investigation uh Caine you know Terry's husband is adamant that she had nothing to do with it and showed no signs of
00:24:14
ever being capable of doing something like this MH um the other thing though too I wish that somewhere somebody would
00:24:24
be able to come out and say you know what I saw Mr Sanchez and Terry Horman together at a restaurant I wish somebody
00:24:32
would if that happened and somebody spotted them um you know I wish we would have somebody saying that because to me
00:24:40
there's no reason for a landscaper in the person that hires him to be together at a restaurant what about the delicious
00:24:46
meals there's still no reason i' you know I worked as a landscaper for a couple years Captain nobody ever invited
00:24:52
me to have a lunch or dinner with them but I'm a geek so why why would that happen all right more about this right
00:25:00
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Cellular when Freedom calls we're here to answer call us at 1888 [Music] Freedom all right cheers mates we're
00:27:27
back okay on Wednesday July 21st 2010 so this is just what about 6 weeks after Kiren
00:27:34
Horman disappeared law enforcement is putting pressure on Terry's small circle of friends this includes 43-year-old DD
00:27:43
Spicer investigators searched Spicer's condominium and have interviewed people who saw Spicer on June 4th the day that
00:27:51
Kiren disappeared now just 2 days later on July 23rd detectives investigating The Disappearance of Kiren announced
00:27:59
that DD Spicer was doing gardening work for a Northwest Portland homeowner on June 4th but she had abruptly left the
00:28:08
house at about 11:30 a.m. and she did not return until about an hour to 90 minutes later another person working at
00:28:18
the home called Spicer to come in for lunch and the homeowner called Spicer on her cell phone but she wasn't able to
00:28:25
reach her Detectives questioned both the homeowner and other persons who were working at the home that day okay so we
00:28:33
have a small circle of friends for Terry Horman and now we have this this woman DD Spicer who is unaccounted for for
00:28:42
about an hour to 90 minutes during the day that Kiren had disappeared yeah which is it it's odd the problem here
00:28:51
though is that he did go to school we do have some eyewitnesses of seeing Terry at after she left the school mhm right
00:29:00
but I think the big problem here is that that we are told that she left the home
00:29:05
around 11:30 a.m. this presents a problem with Terry's story of what was going on that
00:29:12
day because at this time she would have been near the end of her trip of driving
00:29:17
her daughter around for about an hour and a half to get the kid to fall asleep okay and then shortly afterwards she's
00:29:25
seen at the gym with her daughter and then we have we have this little this little 10minute 5 to 10 minute overlap
00:29:33
of DD Spicer when she first goes unaccounted for that day MH towards the end of Terry's time where she's
00:29:40
unaccounted for and then we have Dei who's gone for about an hour to 90 minutes right but the tough thing for me
00:29:47
is what did Terry if she took kirn where was kirn while she was at the store MH where was kirn when she's driving around
00:29:57
uh the daughter was he injured did she hurt him you know they search a car there's no evidence of her driving
00:30:07
around a dead body right this lady has to be crazy enough to help you hide the body of your of your stepson mhm it
00:30:19
seems like a pretty far leap I know that there's some crazy people out there but
00:30:24
and we don't really know much about her other than she's friends she's gave her some bad advice she's bought some I
00:30:30
believe she bought some cell phones for her so she could like talk to people without being traced which I think is
00:30:35
kind of shady we don't know a lot about her so to just call her like oh well she's crazy enough to help hide this
00:30:42
kid right but we would still like to know where she was during this hour during this like to know and again it's
00:30:49
backing right up to the time that Terry is gone for the day now so in her defense um she states that the the calls
00:30:58
went to her voicemail uh by the homeowner and by the person working on the property um because she had left her
00:31:06
phone in her car um the situation is this too this is a large property this is like a 38 acre property right there's
00:31:16
a chance you know I I I I'm a little uncertain what this means when it says she abruptly left the house at about
00:31:25
11:30 a.m. well did she leave the property right um she could have very well have been on the property cell
00:31:32
phone in her car and not able to take these phone calls and I wish we had like cell phone pings to prove whether or not
00:31:40
that phone was at least on the property yeah and we have a situation where we don't seem to have any communication
00:31:48
between the two of them during this time frame yeah but that would be a smart plan hey we got a plan and by the way
00:31:55
don't talk to each other yeah just stick to the plan uh assume I'm going to be where I say I'm going to be at this time
00:32:02
you be where I've asked you to be at the same time I'll be in the garage the following week DD Spicer uh she appeared
00:32:10
at the at the grand jury in front of the grand jury in response to a subpoena now
00:32:16
during this time Captain she's asked several questions where she you know she pulls the old Fifth Amendment movement
00:32:23
you know she says um you know basically doesn't answer any of the questions I played the fifth yes she's going to play
00:32:30
the fifth so she doesn't have to answer any of their questions now in early August we have Searchers and
00:32:36
investigators they're searching a TW Mile Strip of Old germant toown Road uh this is not far from the home of DD
00:32:45
Spicer on Tuesday August 17th DD Spicer tells People magazine that she did not leave the 38 acre uh property where she
00:32:54
was working the day that Kiren Horman vanished right now we have some of the people that worked there um you know as
00:33:02
we said she was unaccounted for during this hour to 90-minute time frame uh It is believed that her vehicle that DD
00:33:09
Spicer's vehicle never left the property her cell phone in if we take her at her
00:33:14
word her cell phone in her vehicle but we have people that have worked there had said that it's not impossible it
00:33:21
would not have been impossible for her to have taken another vehicle and left the property there yeah there's
00:33:27
something fishy about DD Spicer yeah well let's talk about the cell phones you brought it up let's talk about the
00:33:34
burner phones or the prepaid cell phones how you know there's a million different
00:33:38
things you can call them but the situation is this they were able to prove that on on two occasions MH uh at
00:33:46
least three cell phones were purchased uh these were prepaid cell phones uh they were paid for with cash and a fake
00:33:54
name was used to purchase the these phones um it was it's general knowledge that one of Terry horman's friends was
00:34:04
the purchaser uh at least one of these locations of these cell phones and I I might not have been clear there but what
00:34:12
but okay so let me break it down a little easier okay break it down break it down for us on one occasion there
00:34:17
were two cell phones that were purchased by a person using cash and a fake name at another location there was a single
00:34:25
cell phone purchased using the same fake name and again with cash I believe that
00:34:31
they were able to link one of those purchases to one of Terry's friends okay so here here's my thing with this burner
00:34:39
phone mhm little shady that you would want one if you're Terry that you'd want a burner
00:34:46
phone right but right but if you are a cheater maybe you're planning on trying to hook up with somebody some else maybe
00:34:58
you wouldn't want that monitored okay not that big of a deal you're just a shady person and you have bad morals but
00:35:07
that would be a reason then you ask your friend to buy it for you so you're not the one buying it and then your friend
00:35:13
uses a fake name now it's layer upon layer of shadiness right now the thing here is what we got to call into
00:35:20
question is we know that one of her friends did one of those purchases it's thought by law enforcement that the
00:35:27
other purchase is in fact part of her Circle as well because the same fake name was used and the same method of
00:35:33
payment was used now we do know that these cell phones exist and we know that this happened and why because we have DD
00:35:41
Spicer and we have Terry Horman who admit to using these phones they say that you know we we're close friends we
00:35:48
were in contact with each other after the investigation started we had and these are um Terry's words that her
00:35:56
phone had been flashed by police meaning that they took her cell phone for a portion of time and they were able to to
00:36:04
trace its activity right um so she says that these phones were used simply just for Dee and her to communicate back and
00:36:12
forth um I believe that at some point a third name came out and I want to say it
00:36:17
was Laura or Lauren I don't have the name in front of me um I don't know how concrete that was but that's sort of
00:36:25
thought where the third phone would have went um but regarding remember the sexting the old text messages that we
00:36:32
discussed regarding uh Michael cook um during those text messages at one point Terry you know for anybody that still
00:36:41
has a question if she had this burner phone at one point she says to Michael cook hey I have a clean phone right uh
00:36:50
would you prefer to communicate that way would you like to make my clean phone dir him trying to continue the uh Dirty
00:36:57
Talk jokingly says I have a dirty phone and she doesn't really respond to that until he informs her that he was joking
00:37:05
because now she's like oh crap they're they're monitoring his phone right and he and she says do you think they're
00:37:11
monitoring your phone to which Michael says I I wouldn't think so but I don't know how that works where Terry explains
00:37:19
to him they would have had to physically have taken your phone for a short period
00:37:23
of time where they would have installed some kind of software or some form of monitoring his phone for me with these
00:37:30
burner phones again it goes back to even if it's as simple as I'm going through this process of an interrogation I'm
00:37:37
dealing with cops all the time and maybe I just want a vent and be like God this
00:37:41
one cop he's he's kind of a jack wagon right and this other guy's a douche canoe but you don't want to make it
00:37:48
sound like you're bad mouthing the cops cuz they're monitoring your calls mhm I get that that's a reason but you just
00:37:54
have your friend go out and buy a burner phone using their name use their credit
00:37:58
card if you have to give each other phones and that's why you did it you know but using this fake name like I
00:38:04
said it's layer upon layer of shadiness yeah and regarding the questions that she had to answer in front of the grand
00:38:10
jury that she did not will DD Spicer did not willingly answer they were pretty softball
00:38:17
questions Captain I don't have the list in front of me here but the thing is a lot of those questions um were things
00:38:24
that the police would be able to easily prove or disprove um things that don't seem to be
00:38:32
may not be directly related to The Disappearance of Kiren and and matter of fact if DD is not involved or Terry
00:38:38
wasn't involved in this then none of them would have anything to do with The Disappearance of Kiran yeah you know I
00:38:43
think one of one of the questions was was as simple as this you know what has your friendship and relationship been
00:38:50
like for the past six months with Terry Horman I don't know that you need to plead the fifth on that one and then
00:38:57
another question of well maybe there was some uh sexual stuff going on yeah have
00:39:01
have you sent sent or received any emails from Terry Horman after this date okay well plead the fifth but guess what
00:39:09
that that again pretty easy to figure out if those emails if that correspondence happened right so Terry
00:39:16
the turtle does some shady things and Terry the turtle has some shady friends and her scorecard is not looking very
00:39:22
good for her right now on my garage scorecard here Captain but we do have some events that took place regarding
00:39:29
this that we should get to and we we want to make sure we mention the first being on June 1st of 2012 Desiree Young
00:39:36
the biological mother of Kiren filed a lawsuit against Terry claiming that she was responsible for The Disappearance of
00:39:42
Kiren seeking $10 million in Damages now 11 months later Desiree would drop the lawsuit saying that she didn't want the
00:39:51
civil action suit to jeopardize the police investigation into her son son's case then we have late 2013 a judge
00:40:01
finalized the divorce between C and Terry Horman uh but the couple still had to resolve the issue of who would take
00:40:07
custody of the child that took place the following year in 2014 um the ruling would be that the
00:40:16
that Cain would gain custody of their 5-year-old daughter mhm yeah and Terry would be able to visit the girl under
00:40:24
court-ordered supervision in August of 2014 Terry attempted to change her name to Claire Stella
00:40:33
Sullivan to Turd Ferguson in court she told the judge Kiren Horman is missing he needs to be found I love my stepson I
00:40:43
want him home more than anything she also reminded the judge that she had not been the the last person to see kirn
00:40:51
alive and her attorney could prove that now the judge did deny her request to change her name and I think that's smart
00:40:59
I mean she's she's not been named a suspect but guess what when they're holding when they've when they've
00:41:06
collected a grand jury and they're presenting evidence to the grand jury yeah that means they're seeking to
00:41:11
arrest and indict somebody right on a charge but she could be harmful to other people she could be harmful to other
00:41:17
children mhm and I think I think the thing here is the person that they were seeking charges on in an indictment
00:41:24
against it's obviously Terry Horman we have in December of 2014 uh Terry began working for a this
00:41:33
is a care facility for mentally ill adults um and she might she might need to be in the facility yeah she was a
00:41:42
health support specialist she quit working that job in 2015 that brings us to August of
00:41:51
2015 where Terry Horman is charged with having having stolen a handgun from her roommate she lived with a man uh he had
00:42:02
a gun safe I don't think it was a roommate though I think they were lovers and one of his guns came up missing yes
00:42:09
and he said you know what I I saw it in her possession she stole my firearm well
00:42:14
and she wasn't going by Terry to this guy I don't believe she was going by Terry she was going by her uh maiden
00:42:21
name right okay she ended up stealing the gun I think right after he find found out that her stepson went missing
00:42:28
so like they were hanging out for a long period of time and she never brought this up yeah cuz she had moved by this
00:42:34
point so this guy wasn't fully aware of this situation and fully aware of her background or involvement in this uh
00:42:43
right so the story goes that he found out about this and I think questioned her and was like Hey look a lot of
00:42:50
people online think that you had something to do with it and then all of a sudden she steals his gun mhm was she
00:42:56
planning to try to get rid of this guy I think there's only two to me unless somebody wants to try to come up with a
00:43:03
great argument for another reason why to me there's only two two reasons that somebody steals a gun a to sell it or B
00:43:13
to use it to kill somebody and not have it be traced back to you right yeah but what another thing too and I don't know
00:43:21
if you're going to bring this up in your notes but uh desire do something that I
00:43:24
thought was super awesome K kirn's mother goad Ken's mother decides to go to the town that Terry moved to and
00:43:33
start Plastering missing person signs everywhere yes cuz she wanted everybody in that Community to know what kind of
00:43:41
person uh Terry is oh what do they call those there are um there are people that
00:43:46
have helped Desiree uh kind of keep the spotlight on Terry and I think I've heard them refer
00:43:54
to as um desire's disciples uh I I that's that's not the name I would pick here's the thing I
00:44:02
don't Turtle Hunters I I see where one might applaud this I I I do take a little issue with it um
00:44:11
at some point somebody was placing these missing posters around her job as well right um there's a little confusion as
00:44:19
to why she quit um and I what I mean by confusion is this we have the facility stating one reason why Terry quit
00:44:29
working there we have Terry stating another reason stating that she was in fear for her life uh she didn't want to
00:44:35
go to work she did try to put a restraining order on one of the women that was harassing her around her job
00:44:43
and that was putting up these posters that that was denied by the judge and that's when she quit right um so that's
00:44:51
more than likely the true reason why now regarding the gun charges though um this
00:44:56
didn't end up going to court for quite some time almost two years later one because she failed to appear in court um
00:45:04
and two uh they didn't end up resolving this situation until this year the problem is Captain that the charges
00:45:12
she's found not guilty of having stolen this handgun really H that's weird but this case is so tough for me because it
00:45:21
all comes back to did she try to hire somebody to kill her husband husband because if she didn't and that
00:45:29
was just some weird mixup or some weird dude that just wanted to get involved in
00:45:34
the story I don't think a lot of this stuff would have been brought to light I don't think we would have had all these
00:45:40
fishy scenarios with Terry well the thing here is that Terry she hangs her hat on the fact that she has never been
00:45:49
named a suspect we hear it time and time again anytime she does an interview it's
00:45:54
always either started with or follow followed up by I've never been named a suspect in The Disappearance of kir
00:46:00
Horman well good for you okay so let's talk about the the the sticky situations we have the one did she hire someone or
00:46:09
attempt to hire someone to kill her husband was she involved in The Disappearance of her stepson did she try
00:46:15
to steal this gun and if so what what was she going to use it for well we have two situations the first two where there
00:46:23
are no charges brought up against her she's right she was not named a suspect and we have the final one where the
00:46:28
charges didn't stick she gets a not guilty verdict I'm going to call Terry Harman the Teflon stepmom because
00:46:36
nothing sticks to this woman all right but I think the thing here is to I think I'm going to throw all those things out
00:46:44
the window there's a possibility that she's guilty of one of those actions or more mhm possibly all three but I'm
00:46:52
going to throw all those things out the window because I don't think that there's enough evidence to to to drive
00:46:58
us to believe that she's actually guilty of one or all of those things but I think let's hone in on the Kiren
00:47:06
disappearance because I think the thing here is to understand this case and to understand who the most likely suspect
00:47:15
is I think we have to understand who Terry Horman is Terry Horman is a person that will do whatever she wants at any
00:47:25
cost with no regard for anybody else and when she does that and gets caught she's
00:47:32
going to do these things behind your back captain and when she does them and she gets caught behind my back then
00:47:38
she's going to lie about it and if she gets caught in her lies she's going to change her story and she's going to
00:47:45
weasle her way out of every situation that she looks guilty and this is why I have a huge problem with Terry and this
00:47:53
is why I think she should be the prime suspect Than The Disappearance of kirn Horman why because her stories keep
00:48:00
changing mhm everything that happened within This Woman's life every important thing that happened with this woman
00:48:08
leading up to his disappearance and the day that he disappeared her stories keep
00:48:12
changing well and she's very selfish so we have a situation let's go through the
00:48:16
first one okay we have her telling people at her gym people that she works out with other people that go to the gym
00:48:24
we have them tell testifying in front of a grand jury that they were told by Terry that c forced
00:48:32
Terry's son James to go live with either his grandparents or his father but James's story let's go let's go get this
00:48:40
directly from from the person James's story is that he went to go live elsewhere because he could not get along
00:48:46
with his mother right that's a completely different story those are her words these are things she told people
00:48:52
that they were willing to testify to then we have the failed polygraph okay the M two times she failed a polygraph
00:48:59
test now the thing that we hear most of the time is in her defense is that she is deaf in one ear and this caused
00:49:07
complications to those tests well I heard she was deaf in one ear and she can't hear out of the other well the
00:49:13
other thing that she said early on in this situation was that she failed the first polygraph because it was taken the
00:49:20
first week that kir had gone missing mhm and that she failed it because she was not sleeping or eating during this time
00:49:27
because she was so upset about the situation and she was so worried about Kiren that she could not sleep or she
00:49:33
could not eat right yet your own words Terry three days later within that same time frame you post on Facebook going to
00:49:41
the gym guess what Terry I don't go to the gym when I'm not sleeping when I'm not eating when I'm too stressed out or
00:49:49
too worried about a situation or even when he's feeling fine again her words and when that's good enough when that's
00:49:56
good enough then she changes it oh I can't hear out of my left ear okay now let's talk about questions as to why
00:50:05
Terry's phone was pinging off of a tower on Savi Island when her first statements
00:50:10
to police that she was nowhere near Savi Island then years later guess what she's
00:50:17
saying now well when I was out driving the kid around I was on Route 30 which is very close to Savi Island no ter you
00:50:25
were either nowhere near Savi island or you were on Route 30 and guess what even
00:50:31
if you were on Route 30 maybe that explains the cell phone pings to me but it doesn't explain to me why your story
00:50:38
keeps changing and then the final thing that I want to bring up right is the last time that Terry said that she saw
00:50:45
Kiron he was by himself he was in the hallway he's walking towards his classroom and then just 3 days later we
00:50:53
have you saying that he was with a strange man with a person that I didn't recognize
00:51:00
right I'm sorry Terry that that is a way of pointing the investigators in one of
00:51:08
those other options not on Terry this points them towards some strange man abducted this boy right and I tell you
00:51:16
what you know we we talked about I said you know when I've been questioned by police and they asked me something as
00:51:22
simple as did you see a brown car drive past I would say no I didn't see a brown
00:51:29
car because I didn't but I'm going to tell them that I saw a blue car and I'm and I saw a black car why because I did
00:51:35
why because guess what it's my duty as a citizen as a citizen to tell them everything that I saw during the time
00:51:43
frame that they are asking me it's not up to me to decide the relevancy of the things I saw right it's to pass on the
00:51:50
information to law enforcement so they can determine the relevancy of what I saw
00:51:55
and if it means anything that could mean something to them later in their investigation guess what Terry you were
00:52:02
probably if the if the police and which I have to believe that they were and detectives were following protocol
00:52:09
they're going to ask you very specific questions where was the last time you saw him what was the last time you saw
00:52:16
him who was with him did you see anybody with him right a boy a girl a man a woman a dog a cat a python anything a
00:52:24
turtle yes did you see anything the answer to those questions was no and then magically 3 Days Later he's with
00:52:31
some strange man this to me makes her the prime suspect in this case 100% do you uh need to take a
00:52:40
break I think I've said everything that I want to say you sure mhm you're you look a
00:52:47
little sweaty the the colonel you always say I'm not going to get heated up on this one n
00:52:56
the colonel showed up to play well and obviously Captain they don't have enough to bring Terry Horman up on charges of
00:53:02
The Disappearance of Kiran right but they're still out there looking there's still searches that are being conducted
00:53:07
to this day and I think someday they might find that thing that they're looking for they might find Kiron
00:53:14
somewhere and I hope he's well and when they do we're going to I think we're going to find more evidence pointing
00:53:20
towards the guilt of Terry Horman you know it' be awesome if they find him one day I don't believe that's going to
00:53:28
happen uh not find him alive and uh as much as I don't approve of what Cain did um that his parents are in a really
00:53:40
tough spot with life because Cain is always going to sit there and wonder what if I was just
00:53:49
faithful to my wife what if I never met Terry what if you you know I mean what if I would have saw these signs earlier
00:53:57
what if I was honest with when I saw these signs and told more people about it what if I wasn't so stubborn and I
00:54:06
would have let him go live with his mother and then the mother's going to think well why didn't I see this or what
00:54:11
could I have done so he that he wouldn't have left uh could I could I stay and make it work what if I saw these signs
00:54:19
what if what if I wasn't sick in the first place to let him go live with them M and all these what gifts um that you
00:54:27
can't change now and I really feel for his parents and everybody that knew this wonderful kid he seemed like a wonderful
00:54:34
kid a ball of energy and uh and I hope for his sake that we have answers one [Music]
00:54:54
day all right do we have a recommended reading for this week this week we are recommending women who kill profiles of
00:55:03
female serial killers by Carol an Davis she profiles 14 women who used all different methods of murder to kill
00:55:11
their victims each killer is the subject of a separate chapter exploring their childhood lifestyle and sexuality there
00:55:19
is an analysis of the murder the trial and the imprisonment of every woman the author comments on how Society May
00:55:26
underestimate dangerous women and what it is that can turn an ordinary woman into a killer women who kill by Carol an
00:55:35
Davis is our recommended reading but you don't have to jot that down right now because it is listed on our recommended
00:55:41
page at true Crim garage.com and check out all of our recommendations there and I'm very excited about getting in the
00:55:48
garage next week we are taking a look at a case that has fascinated the captain for years yeah one that we have covered
00:55:55
before but we're diving back into so until next week be good be kind and don't [Music]
00:56:23
litter Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I thought it was an Eco move few your
00:56:35
worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iconic must be a tech thing but those aren't
00:56:43
quite right it's because now you can compare upfront prices book a service instantly and even get your project
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handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us so much more than
00:56:54
just a list get started at angie.com that's ngi or download the app today