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GameChanger [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage whatever you are wherever you're doing it I'm
00:01:45
your host the captain and with me as always a man that's back from vacation from the delbo Vista the crispy Colonel
00:01:53
thank you thank you thank you it's good to be seen and it's good to see all of you
00:02:01
[Music] this week we are very proud to be featuring Midnight Rider robust Porter
00:02:09
by our good friends at The pedmont Brewery and Kitchen in beautiful mon Georgia this baby is black in color with
00:02:16
Ruby highlights and if you love dark roasted malt intense flavor topped off with chocolate and coffee this delicious
00:02:23
Porter is for you garage grade four and a qu bottle caps out of five and driving
00:02:29
the beer truck to garage town this week are some of the garage Army's best and brightest first a big cheers to Ava in
00:02:37
Gordonville Virginia and a big shout out to Clay and Baton Rouge Louisiana next up a cheers to my man Chuck a and
00:02:45
Thompson Station Tennessee and a big shout out to Daryl and Ramona in Houston Texas next here's a cheers to Jen Z in
00:02:53
San Diego State classy and last but certainly not least we have Matt Angela Danielle Sam and C happy in Melbourne
00:03:01
Australia and with the new year Captain it is important to remind everyone and thank everyone that because of their
00:03:07
continued support with things like our beer fund and the True Crime garage store it's because of that that we have
00:03:14
been able to continue the garage of support of the national center for the missing and exploited children the
00:03:20
Charlie project and the porch light project all of which who are doing very very good work so cheers to them and
00:03:27
cheers to all of you yeah for all of our supporters that have signed up on the mailing list check your email this week
00:03:35
cuz there'll be a discount code and if you would like to sign up on the mail let's go to True Crim
00:03:40
garage.com and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's
00:03:48
talk some true [Music] crime [Music] after graduating high school Mara Murray who was a good student and dedicated
00:04:25
athlete competing and excelling and tracking field she attended military school reports are conflicting as to why
00:04:33
she left but whatever the case she left and enrolled in University of Massachusetts
00:04:40
Amherst on February 9th 2004 for reasons that are unknown Mara Murray who at the
00:04:47
time was 21 years of age left school and drove north towards New Hampshire sometime between 7: and 7:30
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p.m. she was involved in a single car accident on Route 112 in havo her Father Fred believes that the
00:05:05
car stalled when she was going around a turn and went into a snowbank Mara knew this area fairly well
00:05:12
and had been there several times before she even called a place that her family had stayed at before possibly to reserve
00:05:20
a night or two for her to stay However no such Arrangements were made from what we have been told her family and school
00:05:29
mates do not know why she was driving there that evening she was supposed to be at school and her car was in no shape
00:05:36
to be driving that distance a bus driver who lived across the street from the accident according to his statement he
00:05:44
spotted her car on the side of the road and offered assistance Mara told him that she was fine and that she had
00:05:52
already called for roadside assistance and they were in route the bus driver called the police but by the time
00:05:58
authorities arriv arrived Mara had vanished some believe that she was walking or running East on the road Mara
00:06:08
vanished sometime after the accident and has not been seen since her father believes she may have met with Foul Play
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Fred noted that she was in the middle of nowhere with no place to go due to her damaged car he believes that she
00:06:24
accepted a ride from a stranger who then killed her some believe she vanished voluntarily and does not want to be
00:06:32
found another theory is that Mara wandered off into the woods and died of exposure these are just three of many
00:06:40
theories in this case we featured Mara's case several times on both True Crime garage and off the Record the strange
00:06:49
missing person's case of Mara Murray is one of the more popular Mysteries of the
00:06:53
last 20 years and unfortunately Mars case remains unsolved [Music] we're coming up on the 16th year
00:07:16
anniversary of The Disappearance of Mara Murray True Crime garage was able to sit
00:07:22
down and talk with Julie Murray Mara's sister this interview is a long time in the making
00:07:30
and so we're glad to finally be able to do that and present it to everybody and hopefully we're able to create a better
00:07:36
understanding of who Mara was as a person maybe clear up some misunderstandings or
00:07:42
misreporting on some of the events of her [Music] disappearance all right Julie it's good
00:07:57
to talk to you we met at Prime con con you were very excited to meet me as as I was very excited to meet you as well uh
00:08:08
very intimidated by you because I haven't been doing my CrossFit and I don't think you take a
00:08:14
day off well I was you know thanks for having me on and I was a little intimidated by the line to meet you
00:08:21
wrapped around the corner um but I was very glad that I got a chance to meet you and you know you don't need to do
00:08:30
CrossFit every day um we talked about it you'll get back on the wagon yeah I think the line was to meet Nick um my
00:08:38
line was a lot smaller so your sister went missing and has really become a internet sensation almost do
00:08:53
you remember the first time or who told you that you're sister was missing yeah I I was at Fort Brag
00:09:03
North Carolina uh in the Army I was a I think I had just pinned on first lieutenant I
00:09:11
might have been a second Lieutenant we were actually getting ready to deploy to to Iraq and I think the call came in
00:09:20
from Kathleen my older sister initially and it was basically frantic like have you heard from
00:09:27
Mara and I told her no hadn't what's going on and she said she's missing her car was found somewhere in New Hampshire
00:09:38
it it was kind of very frantic and vague the first phone call um and then later on I remember talking to my dad and he
00:09:47
was asking the same set of questions and of course I had no idea where she was or
00:09:53
what happened so it was extremely stressful for me to be that far away and just sit by the phone and just wait for
00:10:04
some answers so that went on for the rest of that night and I was calling everyone and my
00:10:12
mom was frantic my whole family was frantic and initially I said Dad okay I'm I've got to get leave through the
00:10:19
army so that I can come up and figure out what's going on and he said oh hold up I'm going to go up there and figure
00:10:27
things out right so that was the initial notification that I received was there communication between the family
00:10:36
about why Mara was where she was at no one had a clue right no one had a clue so that was that was the big thing and
00:10:45
that was kind of what caused us well obviously that she she was missing we knew that it was her car um but we kept
00:10:54
asking well why why is she there and it was this big mystery from the minute that that I got the phone call like it
00:11:01
was a Monday night it was during the school year there was no reason for her that I
00:11:06
knew at the time to be up there and like you said since the beginning this case has had those two questions one why was
00:11:15
she there and then what happened and I don't want to put words into anybody's mouth but to me it seems like a lot of
00:11:22
these theories of why she would be up there have either gone nowhere or they just seem very far-fetched like you have
00:11:29
to LEAP from a to uh T to get there right that's exactly right and and that's I think that's part of the
00:11:37
Intrigue of the case is that we know so little we don't know her motive for going up there in the first place and
00:11:45
then there are there's such little evidence thereafter once we know that she did go missing that just can Boggle
00:11:55
the mind and it has it's boggled my mind first going on 16 years now you guys grew up playing sports together but
00:12:04
besides uh running track what sports did you guys actually play together we played every single sport there
00:12:12
is we played softball we played soccer we played basketball we played we made up Sports we played handball We we
00:12:24
played um we used to watch America Gladiator remember that show oh yeah yeah it was a pretty pretty cool show it
00:12:32
was kind of like the the early 2000s version of American Ninja Warrior yeah for those that don't know and I love
00:12:41
that show and so we would like try to recreate the fet of strength or an obstacle from that show and just battle
00:12:50
each other did you guys ever try to build one of those tennis ball Shooters remember remember the tennis
00:12:58
ball shooter they had had oh yeah those were so cool uh no but we we didn't try to build one but we did go to the
00:13:07
batting cages um quite often actually with my dad and uh we always had fun we would practice together we'd play
00:13:15
together we were usually on the same teams like growing up in high school and cuz the age difference is what yeah so
00:13:22
it was two and a half years yeah so not that far yeah yeah so pretty competitive
00:13:27
with each other who was who was better well it depends on what we were doing Mara was a better runner for sure
00:13:39
I like to think I was a better uh soccer player a cool little story about Mara with basketball is she was so good at
00:13:50
free throw shooting there was a there was a basically a qualification for the state where you shoot 10 and the best
00:13:56
out of 10 moves forward and it was kind of a um um a big deal in Massachusetts and
00:14:03
she made it all the way to the state finals where she got to shoot free throws at halime of the Celtics game
00:14:11
that's awesome yeah pretty awesome and so you were pretty jealous of that I was really jealous I was her ball girl I
00:14:18
well I was thankful that I was able to go and go out on you know on the the court for the the pre like before the
00:14:27
Celtics even came out for the warmup they that they had the kids come in really early and I was her
00:14:34
rebounder but you know she wasn't ever going to let you live that down oh no if I'm sure if she was here with us right
00:14:41
now she would be telling you oh yeah you my ball girl so you guys are really close in high
00:14:50
school and then she follows you to college yeah so I got into West Point and I I went there um two years ahead
00:14:59
she was still in in high school and then when she was getting ready to choose a college she she applied to West Point as
00:15:07
well which is not not that easy to get into and you have to get a congressional nomination and yeah you got to go
00:15:12
through a whole bunch of uh tests and you it's not easy to get in it's it's very prestigious to get in yeah and so
00:15:22
she she got in uh she also ran track with with me on the track team which was great because at West Point everything's
00:15:30
so structured and you don't have any time so we were able to see each other multiple times a day which is you know
00:15:38
very rare um for any other Cadets that were siblings there that weren't on the same sports team so well better for her
00:15:46
than you because you've been there you I know but yeah you were Paving your own path but then your little sister gets
00:15:53
there yeah and it was so cool it was so cool to talk about her when she was still in high school to my teammates at
00:16:01
West Point and then I would always tell them you know I hope she comes she's an awesome Runner you guys would love her
00:16:07
and then when she was finally there it was it was really cool but yeah so then your your father which ever since uh I
00:16:15
started looking into your sister's disappearance there's a bunch of different I don't know assumptions about
00:16:25
your dad right but some people think it's strange that he pushed you guys so hard or that's their
00:16:36
words but as a kid that played a lot of sports there's been so many times where I've been reading about your father and
00:16:45
I just think why couldn't Fred be my dad cuz to me that just seems um to an athlete or somebody that is competitive
00:16:57
to have a parent be that invested in you is that a correct term or or the correct way to look at your dad
00:17:08
absolutely and anyone that says that my dad pushed us or pushed us too hard does
00:17:14
not know my dad because my dad did not push us it was us we pushed ourselves um and this that's just the nature of a
00:17:25
distance Runner distance Runners have to push themselves no one's out there on the lonely road with you at Mile you
00:17:33
know seven of a 10 mile run you're by yourself you push yourself that's just the mindset that distance Runners have
00:17:39
and so you know I used to get upset when people said you know categorize my dad as kind of like
00:17:48
a um just mean authoritarian just guy that was pushing us to the brink that is so inaccurate he actually told us to do
00:17:58
less all the time and both Mara and I wanted to get a job in high school so we could get a little you know spending
00:18:07
money and he's like no you're you don't need a job your focus needs to be on schoolwork and having fun and running
00:18:18
you don't have time to add a job on top of that right so but you still wanted spending money so did he give you guys
00:18:24
some runaround money well if we asked but Mar and I we never asked really for anything like our the biggest thing we
00:18:33
ever wanted was like crap food candy Pizza um or in cool like whatever the cool sweatshirt was the champion
00:18:44
sweatshirts or whatever but we didn't even care about that like we just we wanted to take it easy on them because
00:18:52
we we had a big family and both my parents worked and they worked hard and we didn't have a lot of money so we
00:18:58
didn't want to we weren't needy kids is what I'm trying to say the time that you
00:19:02
got to spend with your father doing that is invaluable yeah absolutely like he and he he gave us the resources that we
00:19:09
needed and the biggest resource was time his time yeah um and we spent hours and
00:19:16
hours and hours on the basketball court trying to perfect our free throw for instance and
00:19:23
clearly Mar did that by making it all the way to the Garden or um perfecting our we used to pitch fast pitch softball
00:19:32
we would spend hours doing that and we loved it it's also free it's free for a family that maybe doesn't have a lot of
00:19:40
money exactly so your dad had to be super proud of not just one of his girls but two of his girls going to West Point
00:19:51
and so when she started at West Point what was the what do you think her energy she was
00:19:58
like well she knew she knew what to expect going in because I made sure she knew and um a lot of what you do as a uh
00:20:08
we call it a plea the first year Cadet is just wrote memorization and you've got to memorize all these different
00:20:14
things and then you have to recite them so I'm like hey Mara here's my old plea handbook start memorizing these things
00:20:24
it'll make your life easier right you know she did that um and so she she excelled I just don't
00:20:33
think her heart was ever really in it once once she got there well that's hard for people to explain though too is you
00:20:42
can go to a college that you looked into and and visited and you did all these things and then all a sudden you get
00:20:49
there and you just don't feel like you're fitting in do you think she had any of that or was it just she was
00:20:57
fitting in or could could have fit in but she just didn't want to or yeah I think it's the latter I think she could
00:21:02
have she she did fit in um she the school work was no problem for her obviously the running she was doing
00:21:10
great um she was the I think maybe the one or two top recruits coming in as a freshman as a sophomore she was she was
00:21:19
beating me um and you know beating the Juniors and seniors on the team she was she was doing well it's the military
00:21:28
stuff that I don't think she enjoyed or definitely didn't enjoy as much as I did
00:21:34
um she was more much more of a free spirit uh I'm more structured and so I like my routine and my everything in
00:21:42
order and she was a little bit less of of that um militant type Yeah clean room messy room you seem like the clean room
00:21:51
she seemed like the messy room type and so she she was she was a mess I know that has been talked about a lot on the
00:22:00
Internet is there anything that has been misreported about it or any anything that you want to talk about as far as
00:22:10
the her time at West Point transferring over to the new school uh yeah I mean well let's just talk about the the
00:22:19
issues at West Point so some of the issues were the craziest things you could ever imagine like she she was at a
00:22:29
summer training her second year down at um Fort Knox and she was at what we call
00:22:36
the PX Post Exchange and it's just a place where people that live on the post or are visiting or there for training go
00:22:45
and you get a discount on whatever it is it's kind of like a Walmart for the Army
00:22:50
right um and so she's in there and she walks out and the uh military police person stops her and says what's in your
00:23:00
pocket or something and she had I think it was four or5 worth of lip gloss maybe
00:23:06
just in her pocket at the Fort Knox PX so Mara was not an idiot I don't know for sure why it was in her pocket if she
00:23:15
just forgot you know essentially it was um it was a problem because cadetes can't lie cheat or steal or tolerate
00:23:23
those who do that's our code that's you know what we have to vow to when we first enter um so anyway
00:23:31
she she got caught for that and then she had to go through a what we call a honor
00:23:37
hearing Cadet honor hearing it's basically like a trial run by your peers other Cadets um and it was stressful for
00:23:45
her I was part of the the trial as a character witness for her and I remember going in to say you know she I think she
00:23:56
just forgot or she didn't mean knew if she was going to steal something it would have been something more
00:24:00
substantial than $4 lip gloss right but on one hand you can go well maybe that's
00:24:06
why she didn't think it was so bad there four it's lip gloss I'll just put in my
00:24:10
pocket real quick and just move on yeah well that would be I I could see how you
00:24:14
could think that but she also had the money to buy it so I'm I'm not sure what the motivation would have been but what
00:24:23
are you thinking in your head like I mean this is your this is your baby sister yeah I'm like like what are you
00:24:28
doing that's why would you do that it doesn't make any sense as she was kind of going through that whole process it
00:24:36
got to a point where it was just too overwhelming like she was having to miss classes and her her grades were dropping
00:24:42
and she was missing practices and it just wasn't fun anymore and it wasn't um she just decided it wasn't for her so
00:24:50
she actually voluntarily left West Point after her second year and so after your
00:24:56
second year at West Point point you have to sign a or take an oath to serve in the military so a lot of
00:25:04
cadetes leave after their second year because they they decide at that point hey I don't think this military thing is
00:25:11
is me I don't think I'm cut out for this right um and I think she realized I think she realized that so you what
00:25:18
you're saying is if you stay past your second year you have to sign up to join the military yeah y yeah you're locked
00:25:24
in they got you owe 5 years [Music] this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays maybe
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that [Music] all right cheers me mate cheers to you Captain yes I am here in the garage you
00:27:43
hear me and if you've listened to our little show before then you know that all of our old episodes are available on
00:27:49
the free Stitcher listening app I am saying that because we have covered Mara Murray's case several times before and
00:27:57
if you want want to listen to those you can look up our coverage of Mars's case this is in episodes 28 and 29 from May
00:28:04
of 2016 and also in episodes 152 and 153 from October of 2017 now where we left off Captain you
00:28:14
are kind of getting into one of the biggest questions that that takes place early on in this case one of the things
00:28:22
out there that people have speculated on many times over why would Mara leave West Point or was she kicked out did she
00:28:29
get run out of there did she run out of there what happened and really truly this is what I love when we get the
00:28:36
opportunity to speak to family members and to speak to people that are close to these cases usually you get a pretty
00:28:44
simple answer to something that's been widely speculated right and this is a very simple answer that makes a lot of
00:28:52
sense okay you're going to sign up this is a hard and fast rule here you're going to sign up for 5 years of military
00:29:00
service that sounds scary if your heart is not into it and it sounds like Mara's
00:29:06
heart was not into it I did want to comment a quick thought that I had regarding the the theft of the lip gloss
00:29:14
right I don't want to question her sister too much regarding her thoughts and opinions on it because she was at
00:29:22
the trial what I find interesting there is that she still has questions about but she was at these
00:29:29
proceedings where we have an opportunity for Mara to defend herself or shine a light on why was this item stolen from
00:29:38
the uh from the the little store there I almost wonder if if this is some kind of
00:29:45
not necessarily a cry for help but almost a I'm not really digging this because of maybe the military portion of
00:29:55
what this education involves mhm maybe was this a a way out that wasn't so such a serious offense you know I'm not a bad
00:30:04
person but they have such strict rules if I do something as small as this maybe I am shoved out of here or maybe it
00:30:11
gives me an out yeah or it could be just carelessness I put something in my pocket didn't realize it was there
00:30:20
walked out now now I'm busted why did you steal this stuff well I didn't steal the stuff I just forgot was
00:30:28
there and and no matter how many times you tell somebody that and you go well here's the items back I'm you know I
00:30:35
forgot it in my pocket I've I have forgot stuff in my pocket before uh I just never got caught but you know you
00:30:44
get to your car and you're like oh crap why did I put that thing in my pocket I don't know I just did
00:30:52
so well and this the store The Establishment whatever it may be can't vary well just
00:30:58
accept the the idea of oh I put it in my pocket and forgot because if they just accepted that reasoning they would have
00:31:06
to accept that a hundred times a month and everybody would be putting things in their pocket and just forgetting so yeah
00:31:12
it's one of those sticky situations and I just wonder you know hearing Julie's thoughts
00:31:18
on it I almost expected to hear more of an understanding as to why it happened other than I mean cuz really what I'm
00:31:27
with there is either she intended to steal it and then what was the reasoning behind that was it that she is just
00:31:34
plain and simple a thief yeah I think in the next little bit she'll actually get
00:31:40
to Mara's reasoning of or explanation of what happened okay okay because my other
00:31:48
thought is that is this just the an excuse to get out you know is this just a minor offense that I could commit so
00:31:56
that I can get out of something that I don't really want to [Music] do if you had to guess what she would
00:32:17
let's say uh rate her freshman year what you think she would rate that as like a
00:32:23
one to 10 10 being the best right her experience or how she she did no like her experience
00:32:32
like yeah I don't I mean she made great friends um the track team was very supportive I was there I I think she did
00:32:42
enjoy the school workor it was challenging so I would say like maybe a seven like she wasn't like over overly
00:32:50
thrilled like I was like just want to right walk around in my uniform all day long because I just love
00:32:56
it was kind of I felt like she was kind of over it like it's a lot it's a lot it
00:33:02
wasn't like she went there and had an nine or a 10 freshman year and just it was the best year ever then all of a
00:33:09
sudden this Dark Cloud came over her no no and and then sophomore year was so bad and no I think I think she it it
00:33:19
just solidified what she already knew from the beginning like I I'll tell you this
00:33:25
this one time the the very first summer Cadets have to go through what's called Beast barracks and it's the cadet
00:33:32
version of basic training right but it's like basic training on steroids because
00:33:39
not only are you getting beat up physically but you're also having to memorize all of these things that I
00:33:44
talked about earlier and you're like 17 18 19 years old and you're away from home and it's so stressful and I loved
00:33:52
it Mara did not love it I remember I was also so I was one of the trainers so my
00:34:00
job as a when I was going into my junior year was to train these new Cadets coming in and she was one of them and I
00:34:08
dropped into her room one night just to check on her and I think I brought her I
00:34:12
was bringing her Oreos or or something because you don't get to eat a lot and I just found her just
00:34:20
crying and just totally just unhappy and this is the this is before she even started the academic year right and it
00:34:31
it I didn't that was the first glimpse into seeing that she wasn't happy it's like you said it's tough too when you're
00:34:40
enjoying so many aspects of that life right and I I I kept telling her when I went through that I'm like it's so
00:34:48
awesome like these people will yell at you and you'll they'll tell you to do push-ups and you'll like be the best
00:34:53
because you're in shape and you'll do these push-ups and then they'll yell at you more
00:35:00
and I don't know maybe I'm a s masus but I liked it and so maybe I gave her the wrong impression she did not like it
00:35:10
well no I mean but also just because you're a very good athlete different athletes are motivated
00:35:18
by different things and like you said you you feel like you are motivated uh with your life with structure and and
00:35:27
but she might have been um motivated more by and I don't want to use the word chaos but
00:35:35
disorganization so that is yeah that is true Kaa chaos is the right word for her you're like no no stick with the
00:35:44
chaos word yeah I'm fret my two amazing daughters they're smart they're goodlook
00:35:54
they're they're very athletic and they go to West Point I mean it doesn't get much better than that and
00:36:02
one sophomore year which like you said the the but the stealing I don't even is that what your
00:36:12
family considered the lip gloss we'll call it the lip gloss incident is that what the family
00:36:20
considered it stealing or was it just she just didn't know it was in her pocket I really think she just got
00:36:31
distracted so and that's what she told me right and I believe you know I believed it why else would she I don't
00:36:39
understand why she would try to steal from a place where she knew that there was people watching for that type of
00:36:46
thing and at this point is when she like you said she went to the the trial that
00:36:51
was it's all pretty much conducted like with inhouse and I don't even know do you want to call it a trial well we call
00:36:59
it an honor board so it's I mean I no I don't want to call it a trial it's yeah it's like an honor hearing but this is
00:37:06
where she'll meet her boyfriend Bill Rous yes that is where she met bill so then mama bear has to come out right
00:37:16
and and what do you think of her boyfriend yeah absolutely so bill was Bill was actually two years older or two
00:37:25
classes ahead of Mara and which makes it would make him my classmate at West Point so bill was my classmate and I
00:37:34
didn't know Bill all that well although it's pretty small there's only I think my class is only like 900 people I knew
00:37:42
of him I hung around in the same circles as him um but I didn't know him that well um but then when the honor board
00:37:52
kicked off and he was helping Mara like tremendously helping Mara I thought he was a good guy so your
00:38:00
Spidey senses were telling you that this guy was okay to date your sister yeah and I was a little skeptical because he
00:38:08
was two years older and he was my classmate but I was I mean that was okay I mean in the grand
00:38:14
scheme of things there it was probably I don't know how old bill is now but it's
00:38:20
not that big of an age difference whatsoever right right so no there was nothing that there was nothing
00:38:27
that I outwardly disliked about Bill well I think that it's interesting to me because like
00:38:34
you said I think that's a key thing that maybe the inter internet has missed upon is that she's leaving this school
00:38:45
and I think the number one reason would be that she wouldn't want to sign up for
00:38:50
military duty yeah that's the reason you must not want to sign up for military so
00:38:57
much because you have a lot of things there at that school going for you have you have Athletics that you're excelling
00:39:03
in you're doing well in school I mean yes Less in your sophomore year your sister's there and she's
00:39:13
cool right I don't know well I'm trying to I'm trying to butter you up right now
00:39:18
I don't know if she would call me cool and she's really awesome and uh but then you have your boyfriend there yeah and
00:39:26
so it's kind of a big thing right you go okay well now she's switching schools and that's going to make a lot of things
00:39:33
harder but I don't know my gut feeling is just I had to do it myself and it was tough it was a big deal to switch
00:39:42
schools but what a relief it was once I got to a school that I felt like I belonged so now she gets she starts the
00:39:53
next year on time is that correct well she transferred her she attempted to transfer all her credits from her
00:40:02
classes at West Point but I think that put her behind a semester um at UMass so I think she went into ums at a
00:40:15
half a semester behind where she would have been at West Point the other thing I want to say about that is she she she
00:40:21
switched basically universes she went from West Point chemical engineering military career to
00:40:30
a she got into the nursing program those are polar opposite things yeah but a nursing program is very uh
00:40:41
difficult and timec consuming maybe the the level of math and certain things like that aren't going to be as high but
00:40:49
it's a very timec consuming major yes I definitely agree there and it and it's a
00:40:54
definitely a hard program but the careers are are are are opposite I mean you're going to war or you're going to
00:41:03
go help people I mean let's talk about a couple of situations she gets into there
00:41:09
the credit card fraud so um at UMass I Mara was using a another person's credit card to
00:41:21
purchase um random things like pizza from dominoes and subs and stuff so I don't I didn't really get what all that
00:41:31
was about but other people have told me that that she wasn't the only one doing it and I'm not saying that that makes it
00:41:38
right but I'm saying if if you really start to think about it who is that important
00:41:45
to why is that important that she was doing that yeah but I think by showing these actions or these
00:41:55
questionable states of behavior that it allows people to create a narrative yeah I agree and you've got to
00:42:04
you got to kind of peel it back and look at who are these people focusing on these small little details and what is
00:42:11
their motive why is it like I said why is that important is it important to where Mara
00:42:19
is is it important to why she went to New Hampshire on that Monday night in the grand scheme of things maybe but I
00:42:28
don't think so um but you know it kind of brings me to the point of you've got this cast of characters that are
00:42:38
obsessed with this case and um some of which are using it for for profit uh for some of them need content or some of
00:42:49
them need to pick apart some of the stuff that a 21-year-old girl did in college
00:42:55
to to be relevant and you know we could we could pick apart every little thing that you and I did when we were 21 and
00:43:05
it would probably look a lot worse than what Mara did I mean I don't want to speak for you but I mean I did some
00:43:10
really dumb stuff yeah but you also had a clean room but I did have a clean room
00:43:16
yeah you know so I mean once you have a clean room they PE people trying to write books or people trying to start
00:43:24
podcasts if they see a clean room they just keep moving yeah they go oh nothing to see here yeah exactly um what
00:43:31
I'm trying to do is to get a sense of where you think she was at in her life how she thinks how you think things were
00:43:39
going because I know with siblings I hear about the es and flows and and and sometimes your parents
00:43:47
will tell you oh things aren't going so well so then you reach out and check in with your brother or sister and find out
00:43:53
hey things are not actually that bad or they tell you things are great and then you check in and you go things
00:44:00
aren't that great but to me it seems like things are she's doing a lot better and she's headed in the right direction
00:44:08
yeah and one of the things that that I can say about that is um she was doing really well in the nursing program she
00:44:17
was on the track team she had a a group of girlfriends that she hung out with she kept in touch with her friends from
00:44:24
high school pretty regularly um more than than I ever did um but the other thing is she was uh a an athletic
00:44:34
tutor so she was a tutor for other athletes you don't just become an athletic tutor if you've you're a mess
00:44:42
you know what I mean right so yeah um I don't know what the selection process was or how you got to be a tutor but um
00:44:52
she definitely was one and um must have met some kind of qualification yeah exactly um and she she actually had a an
00:45:02
appointment or a session I don't know what it's called the week that she went missing um that she didn't show up to
00:45:11
obviously because she was missing so I'd be interested in trying to track down who that person was she was supposed to
00:45:21
tutor was that session supposed to be on that Monday I'm not sure the exact day but I
00:45:28
know it was that week yeah cuz that's the other thing that is kind of unclear is she you know so things are going
00:45:37
pretty well I know there's these these phone calls that she gets at work she seems a little upset so one of her
00:45:44
bosses walk her back to her dorm do you know who that call was to or what it was
00:45:49
about or yeah so that call was um with my older sister Kathleen to the best of our knowledge from what we know from
00:45:59
phone records and talking to to everyone um that spoke to her that night um so she had a call with my older sister
00:46:06
Kathleen basically Kathleen had just gotten out of rehab um for um alcoholism and her husband at the time
00:46:20
picked her up from rehab and took her directly to a liquor store and yeah Kathleen was telling
00:46:28
Mara that so my thought is you know that call was earlier in the night I think it was
00:46:35
about 10 10 p.m. is um and Mara was at her security desk job where she would check people's IDs to get into the dorm
00:46:43
room at ums and she hung up the phone with Kathleen um that wait also another job
00:46:50
that they don't give to people that are barely making it by exactly yeah struggling to get through school yeah
00:46:59
yeah and that was one of her jobs she had she had another job so she had two jobs uh so she was she was on the go
00:47:07
like she was doing a lot how mad was how mad was your dad about her having two jobs well I don't even know if my dad
00:47:17
knew to be honest um but I know he knew about one of them but I'm not sure if he
00:47:23
knew she worked at an art gallery as well I'm not sure if he knew about that he probably did because he loves art and
00:47:29
stuff like that but yeah so she gets his call that's pretty upsetting it's a pretty upsetting call um to get from
00:47:35
your sister who you care about and for that to happen um Kathleen was probably upset and disappointed in herself and
00:47:45
felt like a failure and I know Mara was the type of person that would have tried
00:47:50
to be stoic and calm Kathleen down and and you know be that rock for her so right I was just going to say that
00:47:59
sometimes you can be a rock for the person on the phone but when you get off the phone then you you have to um let
00:48:06
out that sadness or that negative energy yourself absolutely and so that's kind of what I think happened I think it
00:48:15
really upset Mara that that phone call with Kathleen and I think she wasn't able
00:48:20
to release any of those emotions with Kathleen in the state that she was and so she probably and she was at her job
00:48:29
um so she didn't have this breakdown until later towards the end of her shift where maybe she couldn't hold it
00:48:38
together any longer and you know like you said you can't hold that in and Mara was was emotional um and so she just had
00:48:47
this breakdown to the point where the student boss I guess you'd call it um came was notified and came to where
00:48:55
where Mara was sitting and basically escorted Mara um back to her room the other thing that people question a lot
00:49:02
is that your dad came to visit her the weekend before she went missing yes um my dad came up from Connecticut
00:49:13
to visit Mara and the purpose of his visit was to buy a new car not a new car a you a new used car from new to her new
00:49:24
to her yep yeah um that's what kind of cars we got too I don't I didn't know what a new car
00:49:34
was yeah uh exactly I was like you mean somebody else's car I believe they went and looked at some
00:49:40
cars uh and possibly called around but there wasn't anything that he was particularly in love with well actually
00:49:48
no that um they did find they they narrowed down they narrowed it down the two two cars
00:49:56
that weekend they they went to several different locations um Mara's uh boyfriend Bill actually bought a car
00:50:03
somewhere at at one of the locations that they looked at himself and so they went there and they R bought a car yep
00:50:12
during this trip no no no no before prior Bill bought bought a car at a previous trip to ums to visit Mara okay
00:50:21
yep so Mar and my dad went to that location to say hey let let me see what your inventory is
00:50:28
what do you have they found one vehicle that was kind of in the right price range I that vehicle was um I want to
00:50:36
say $4,000 I believe then they went to another location this is on that Saturday uh and they found another car
00:50:47
which was a better car I can't remember the brand but I know it was red um but that car was
00:50:54
$6,000 and that's the car that my dad wanted to get from Mara because it was a little
00:50:59
bit it was a better brand or something I'm it might have been a I don't know what kind it was but anyway my dad only
00:51:06
my dad deals in cash um because when you're trying to go deal with used car salesman Cash's King and so he had oh my
00:51:15
God you sound like my father cash is King cash is King yes yes I know Dad I know Dad I mean and my dad's a pretty
00:51:22
skilled negotiator when it comes to dealing with with those old school type of guys that typically work at used cars
00:51:31
places yeah but back in the day car car dealerships were different you and you could also you couldn't just call your
00:51:38
bank and tell them run my card for six grand no there was limits and stuff like that so the fact that he'd be dealing
00:51:47
with cash makes the most sense in the world but a lot of people then have taken this idea that they were going to
00:51:54
go look for a car which like if you had to rate her car at one 1 to 10 what would you rate it it was like a two it
00:52:04
was it was trash it was not good right and so they're going up to get a car but then there's been
00:52:14
all this speculation that your father gave her this money which there's I can't find proof of that that he gave
00:52:22
her the money and then they say that was pregnant and that's why she's been missing all these years cuz she was
00:52:30
pregnant and she was and your dad was helping her run away yeah that's just crazy talk to me
00:52:36
that's someone that needs to needs some content or needs to make this sensationalize this that is not
00:52:46
what happened and um just as some background like my dad deals in cash and not only with C you know dealing with
00:52:53
cars he just he always his cash all the time and I guarantee you when he was looking at those cars he I'm I'm pretty
00:53:01
sure he probably flashed his cash in front of whoever it was to try to get a you know a a better deal in the car um
00:53:10
and listen his his bank was in Connecticut and it's not like it's not like they had Sun Trust
00:53:20
and I don't know Bank of America um yeah so it's not like he could just get a bunch of cash out from anywhere back
00:53:35
then actually I think his his bank account might have been out of east or yeah eastern Mass but whatever it wasn't
00:53:43
it wasn't near UMass um and so he had limits on how much you could withdraw he knew he wanted the cash because to
00:53:51
incentivize the dealer to give him a better better deal the bottom line was he wanted to get Mara the more expensive
00:53:58
car and he didn't have the the other $2,000 so he told her I'm going to come back next weekend and we're going to get
00:54:06
you this car the other reason why time was of the essence for her to get this car was be part of her nursing program
00:54:15
required her to go to clinicals and so she had to travel to all these different hospitals for these clinical rotations
00:54:23
that she had and part of the the process with that was she had to confirm that she had reliable transportation which
00:54:30
she did not um so she she needed this car to go to these clinicals because she was just buming rides from her
00:54:37
classmates you can only miss so many uh clinical these are huge in a nursing program and some places you that you
00:54:47
can't even miss one uh if you miss one you have to do a makeup so to miss one uh could have been a big no no yeah
00:54:57
absolutely and she was doing so well in the program I don't think she wanted to take that risk um and it this is just
00:55:03
speculation on my part but she could have told her professors she needed time off uh and there was a death in the
00:55:11
family so that she could buy some time to get this new car um and not basically lie and say for whatever reason she had
00:55:21
to go and it could have been to take care of her r statement fee in New Hampshire which she knew she had a she
00:55:29
got a speeding ticket in New Hampshire the um couple months prior to her going missing um so it kind of all kind of
00:55:36
comes together into a a theory that that's why she was going up to New Hampshire in the
00:55:42
first place all right so let's okay let's stay on that for a second so and I believe this is like new information
00:55:49
that for 15 years we've wondered why she was there and then what happened and I believe we have the most
00:55:59
plausible reason of what why she was there so your dad comes to visit he's going to buy her
00:56:07
a car they find one but it's not the car that she wanted so now she decides that
00:56:13
she is going to she's going to go to an area that she went on vacation with uh your father and Bill and during that
00:56:26
time she got a speeding ticket yes and so she then didn't pay the speeding ticket no she she did pay
00:56:38
the speeding ticket she actually she was required to appear because she got a 99 the speeding
00:56:45
ticket was 99 miles per hour so it was pretty pretty fast right she had to appear and pay a pretty hefty fine which
00:56:53
she paid the fine for the speeding but they she never paid the reinstatement fee or we don't know whether she's paid
00:57:02
the reinstatement fee right so it looks like they probably suspended her license
00:57:06
for a time period and then they wanted her to pay a reinstatement fee right and then so she didn't pay that fee
00:57:16
so so you believe that on that Monday when she then tells her school and work and everybody look there's a family
00:57:26
emergency and uh I got to take care of this and then I'll be back so the thought is that she was
00:57:33
going to drive up there Monday either pay then stay somewhere and then go back to your father's house well yeah it was
00:57:43
my mother's house at the time but that yeah that's sort of what the the theory is but basically she she got into an
00:57:51
accident that that Saturday night prior um to her going missing on Monday after they her and my dad went car shopping
00:58:00
and so the thought is that's when she learned that she had a suspended license that required her to show up in person
00:58:10
in New Hampshire to pay a reinstatement fee because I'm not sure how else she would have
00:58:16
known that her license was suspended in New Hampshire so yeah although her license wasn't suspended in
00:58:23
Massachusetts you know if the the officer at the accident and Hadley on that Saturday would have run her license
00:58:32
um he may have seen that and just said hey you know you have this issue yeah and the accident on Saturday she just
00:58:40
ran off the road yeah she just flid off the road she just yeah ran off went into
00:58:47
a t she was at a te intersection and just went straight forward and hit the guard rail so then she she is driven
00:58:54
back by by the police officer to your father's Hotel because he's visiting trying to help his daughter get a car
00:59:01
yeah well she she she jumped in the tow the the officer on the scene did not site her for DUI she he let her go um
00:59:12
she didn't get any she didn't get anything and he allowed her to jump in the tow truck and the tow truck took the
00:59:20
car the my dad's Corolla to wherever they take which happens to which happened to be right next to where my
00:59:28
dad's Hotel was and so sheum in and just went to the hotel so okay so have you talked to your dad about this did he did
00:59:37
he think she was intoxicated CU you said she didn't get a DUI or omvi yeah so I mean it's pure
00:59:45
speculation who can say who can say whether she was intoxicated or not right um obviously not for the not enough for
00:59:54
the officer to think that she deserved to be arrested for it yeah and I mean we're talking about you Mass
01:00:00
it's I would say over half the student body is intoxicated on Saturday night um but that I you know I'm not I didn't
01:00:11
that doesn't mean they should be driving though oh absolutely I totally agree with you and even if even if she was
01:00:17
over tired she shouldn't have been driving um right but yeah I totally agree with you but I think the police
01:00:23
officer like I said if if it was a parent she's been heavily drinking he's not going to let her off like that no I
01:00:31
just I don't buy that for one minute so he lets her go back how about you just jump in the tow truck and then go back
01:00:39
to your dad's hotel and another thing about the internet that I mean with this case and I find this just
01:00:48
absolutely uh appalling and disgusting is is some of the stuff that people then have speculated or assumed because Fred
01:00:59
has a hotel and his daughter's going to stay in the hotel with him how has that kind of
01:01:08
speculation you know against your father uh I just don't even want to say the words I don't want to rehash what
01:01:16
they're spec speculating but I mean how how does that affect you I mean it's just sick it it really is because number
01:01:26
one um there was two beds in that room right and it it's really upsetting because obviously whoever is spreading
01:01:36
this does has doesn't know my dad um and to say those things about a father with
01:01:43
a missing child is nothing other than sick and there's there's got to be a motive behind why anyone would say that
01:01:52
and I think it's pretty clear what the motive is for any for whoever is saying that so she ends up talking to your
01:01:58
father your sister ends up talking to your father talking to her boyfriend that night well let me let me just clear
01:02:05
the record on that so when she got back to the hotel room in the tow truck she couldn't get into the his room um so she
01:02:18
actually kind of doz off on the couch in the lobby of that hotel she didn't have
01:02:25
a key to the room and I don't know whether she didn't want to wake my dad or there was maybe a Lobby um door that
01:02:33
you had to have a key to the room to get in I'm not sure the exact circumstances
01:02:37
but my dad didn't know that anything even happened until the next morning um when he woke
01:02:45
up um somehow she I guess when the the um front desk person came I don't know if it was man 24 hours or whatever
01:02:55
somehow she got to access to my dad's room later on in the morning and she used his cell phone to
01:03:04
call Bill and tell Bill what happened and then that's when she told my dad what happened she has a cell phone we
01:03:11
know she has a cell phone but it's possibly dead at that point and then well she left it she left the cell phone
01:03:17
at the dorms right so she didn't have her own cell phone it was so nice back in the day when we could do that just
01:03:26
leave the just leave your cell phone at home you don't need it yeah I think we'd
01:03:31
all freak out right well I mean that's but but here's another point that I think is
01:03:37
interesting for people to hear is there's tons of people that have investigated this case there's tons of
01:03:46
people that have looked at this case and to just talk about the time that she gets in a wreck on Saturday and then she
01:03:51
goes back to the hotel with her father and I have never heard that she actually had to go to the lobby first and sleep
01:03:58
on the couch yep I mean this is the misinformation that gets put out there not for every case but for a lot of
01:04:06
cases there's little and and does that have anything to do with her going missing probably not but it's just to
01:04:13
show that not all details or things that are people are reporting should everybody take as fact I agree and I
01:04:22
think that my kind of rule of thumb with this is to to Fig figure out the motive
01:04:28
behind why people are saying certain things and it's been 16 years and you know I've figured out there there's a
01:04:35
few loud voices surrounding this case um and their motives are pretty U apparent
01:04:42
um and so I don't really let that that type of stuff really get to me and distract me from what is and my motive
01:04:49
which is to find my sister so you're so you're telling me that she's not pregnant and your father's not paying
01:04:57
for her to start a new life yes I can't believe I have to say this um yes that's what I'm saying the
01:05:05
$4,000 was to buy her a new buy her a car that actually ran with all cylinders firing and she so there's I have to
01:05:17
address it I can't believe I do but the rumor about the pregnancy um issue is that her computer
01:05:24
showed searches for pregnancy terms maternity terms and that's because her homework assignment was she was going
01:05:33
through a maternity cycle and so her literal homework was to look up maternity terms Julie that sounds a
01:05:42
little too convenient I mean I mean it's not a good story it's not it's not salacious and it's yeah and and also she
01:05:52
was on birth control and the birth control she had four pills missing out of the her current pack of birth control
01:05:59
right that was found one of the items found in her car so and the other thing too is there's been multiple accounts
01:06:07
that after the first year of her going missing your father's up there every weekend and then it I think then he kind
01:06:15
of goes down to every other weekend and then eventually every three weeks he's going up there but that's yeah that
01:06:23
that's hurt that is really hurtful for me to hear stuff like that because I sat there and I watched my dad for 10 years
01:06:30
I mean we're going on 16 years y but for 10 years that man that poor man drove up
01:06:34
to New Hampshire from whether he was in Connecticut or down at the cape at the time most sometimes and most of the
01:06:41
times all by himself on that Lonely Road and I just can't imag I wish I could have been there on some of those trips
01:06:47
with him I just can't imagine what he's thinking for four hours in his car and then for people to say well he didn't go
01:06:54
up there enough that man could not have gone up there any more than he he did and it it's really hurtful for me to
01:07:02
hear stuff like that every weekend I mean I you have to make a living you have to pay your bills and then every
01:07:08
weekend you're going and that's that is not coming from I did not hear that from
01:07:12
anybody in your family I heard that from uh volunteers people that were helping him and then to continue to do that
01:07:20
every year and continue to do that every weekend when you're finding no new information I mean that I think there's
01:07:30
a level of love in care that you just naturally have for somebody in your family if he didn't have that for your
01:07:39
sister there's it would be impossible to do what he did and the amount of searches and the hours he
01:07:46
searched and the amount of money he spent searching yeah and I mean and like I said before all by himself most of the
01:07:53
time I was was in the army or in you know in my government job and wasn't able to to get up there as much as I
01:08:00
would have liked when he went up there all he hit was roadblocks he just hit roadblock after roadblock and two years
01:08:09
into the case after hitting all these Road Blocks the man who supposedly took $44,000 out to help Mara run away is
01:08:18
pleading for the release of all the records at the New Hampshire Supreme Court pleading to get the FBI involved
01:08:27
now what man who's trying to help his daughter Escape pleads for the FBI and also with the speculation out there that
01:08:34
she was that she ran away to start a new life because your father was sexually abusive or physically abusive for her to
01:08:43
get in a crash on that Saturday and then tell the police officer ah don't take me
01:08:47
to my dorm taking me to my father's hotel that doesn't make a lot of sense to me we're we're we're getting logical
01:08:53
here I I don't know I don't know what the internet can handle that but then the abusive person that is abusing the
01:09:00
person because they don't care about them cares so much that they go search for them by themselves it there's just
01:09:09
no logical sense nor is there evidence and that's the thing that has really drove me nuts about people talking about
01:09:17
your sister people that claim that they're looking for your sister people that claim that they're they they have a
01:09:26
that they're doing this for good uh making accusations and speculations with no evidence and so so that so that
01:09:35
Monday we believe that she was going up with this with the new theory that I believe is based off of actual evidence
01:09:45
that she was going up to that area to pay pay that ticket yeah and I'm not married to any Theory and
01:09:55
I'm not pushing a theory I don't know where Mara is I don't know what happened to
01:10:02
her I'm open to I have to be open to all possibilities and all theories um not wild speculation but
01:10:11
based on what we do know um we can kind of narrow it down a bit um but like I said I'm not I'm not convinced that this
01:10:18
is the theory and I'm going to you know push this narrative um but it's possible
01:10:26
it's possible I just haven't heard that many logical reasons why should be in that area and this to me sounds like an
01:10:35
actual logical reason yeah I I mean I I I definitely agree I I wish I knew I wish I I knew the answer to why she was
01:10:45
there I wish somebody did I wish she would have told somebody like I said like before i' I've said it so many
01:10:53
times it doesn't make it doesn't make sense for her to be there and it wasn't smart and she wasn't supposed to drive
01:11:00
the Saturn and she didn't drive the Saturn when my dad was around because he she
01:11:06
knew that um he'd get her for it and say what this is also this is also why he said hey while I'm at my hotel not using
01:11:16
my car why don't you use my car go go hang out use my car exactly but I will say that I do know that occasionally I
01:11:25
guess when she couldn't find any other person to take her where she needed to go she would jump in the Saturn and
01:11:31
drive it short distances um because right in one of her emails to her um high school friends she referenced
01:11:38
getting stuck in the snow and her stupid Saturn or I don't know what term she used so she jumps in her Saturn she's
01:11:45
going to go we know that she stops at a ATM we that that footage was finally released I think the biggest thing about
01:11:53
them releasing the ATM footage was you not knowing if you've seen the jacket that she was wearing part of part of
01:12:01
that statement I mean when you when I'm on the oxygen show and I'm saying that and I'm I'm looking at the computer
01:12:08
screen that they put in front of me that is the very first time in my entire life
01:12:13
that I had seen that and I was trying to hold it together I was really just trying to say
01:12:21
something um and I don't know what made me say that but it's true I mean I didn't recognize a jacket but I was in
01:12:29
such shock and it it's a hard thing to to it was a hard thing for me to see especially with cameras all over me and
01:12:36
I'm trying to play it cool and be like you know not get super emotional um and so I'm like I don't recognize a jacket
01:12:43
I'm like why did I say that that's not an appropriate thing to say but it was true it's just where my mind went um but
01:12:50
that was that was hard yeah it's also emotional because you have been through so much and your family has been through
01:12:57
so much and then you get to see this picture and that's the last known recording of her yeah and I've stared at
01:13:06
those pictures I've analyzed those pictures I've zoomed in and zoomed out just to kind of like try to read her
01:13:12
expression try to figure out her state of mind because I knew Mara better than anyone and the this unfortunately the
01:13:23
still shots that we were shown are pretty bad quality yeah um I can't tell you how how many times I've stared at
01:13:32
those pictures cuz it it literally is the last time I've out see [Music] her thank you to everybody for joining
01:13:52
us here in the garage today today join us back here again tomorrow for much more on this case until then be good be
01:13:58
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