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subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for [Music] details [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
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you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that insists
00:01:52
that Willie Nelson file his taxes for him ladies and gentlemen the independently wealthy Captain yeah I had
00:01:58
a bunch of money till the government took my hashish money it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for
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listening thanks for telling a friend today in the old garage ice box we have a little tramps like us IPA from
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intersect Brewing this is a citrusy IPA with an ABV of 6.5% and a garage grade of three and three quarter bottle caps
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out of five let's give some cheers to our good friends that helped us out with this week's beer fun first up a cheers
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to Andy and Charles at the Columbia River Roadhouse in shinook yeah get some and a big we like your JP to Blair in
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Minneapolis this next one is from Carlos Lewis and the young wolf from Liverpool
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England the young wolf I feel like we just gave a shout out to three dudes that are about to commit a bank heist
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yeah or May maybe like three dudes that are raising a kid as a wolf in the woods
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and we don't know if if she's a wolf or not she might be a fox big shout out to Erica in rest in Virginia next up a big
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little cheers and a Ron Swanson please and thank you to little Linda from Kono studio in Dallas and last but certainly
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not least we have Aaron flipping Lids in Gig Harbor Washington thanks to everyone
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for helping us fill up this week's garage ice box yeah be the are you in beer run if you'd like to help out the
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up a t-shirt pick you up a coffee mug so many things some beer pints you can pick
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up some beer pints and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather
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around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] [Music] in June of
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1965 Houston police officers forced their way into the home of Fred and edua Rogers finding the elderly couple
00:04:25
murdered and their bodies dismembered in the refrigerator or ice box their 43-year-old son Charles who lived in the
00:04:33
home with the deceased couple was nowhere to be found based on the autopsy the crime scene and the evidence
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investigators believe that Fred was killed by blows the head with a claw hammer Ed WEA had been beaten and shot
00:04:48
execution style investigators believe that Charles their son killed his parents dismembered them and cleaned up
00:04:56
most of the blood the house was staged to have the appearance of a robbery a search for Charles Rogers was launched
00:05:03
and a warrant was issued for him as a material witness to the crime this is a tactic that we've seen before in other
00:05:12
murder investigations Captain where they are not saying this man is a suspect they are not publicly saying this man
00:05:19
murdered his parents what they are saying is we are searching for this man the best we could do is get a material
00:05:26
witness search warrant for this man right and we can't find him anywhere locally very quickly within 24 to 48
00:05:35
hours of the discovery of the parents having been murdered there's a nationwide manhunt for 43-year-old
00:05:44
Charles Rogers the difficult thing here is Charles lived at the home possibly owned the home so fingerprints that's
00:05:53
not going to matter Footprints not going to matter but what does matter is we have two to dead parents and the house
00:06:01
is filled with bleach mhm and I think that's the thing when when you talk about the fact that there might be some
00:06:10
like gambling or local mob or even National mob why would the mob clean up the house there's no point
00:06:21
to it or spend the time to dismember the bodies it's really if this dismembering
00:06:28
of the bodies could be to prove a point that's true let's show you how vicious we are and so when you come home and
00:06:36
again well maybe that's the reason why there would been any cleanup maybe the whole idea is you're going to come home
00:06:42
you're not going to really notice much difference in the house and then when you open up the refrigerator you're
00:06:49
going to find your parents chopped up and that's to send a message um I guess then the bleach would make sense but
00:06:59
doesn't make a lot of sense to me right I guess the the thought being here if it
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was a robbery if it was a hit if it was a job that you go in you commit the murders and you leave you don't hang out
00:07:11
there for hours possibly days altering the crime scene and dismembering the bodies this case reminds me of an FBI
00:07:20
top 10 most wanted case that we covered in August of 2017 this is the Bradford Bishop case he
00:07:27
was aged 39 he disappeared March 2nd back in 1976 from Bethesda Maryland shortly after allegedly
00:07:37
murdering his wife mother and children similar situation where everybody else that lived in the house was killed the
00:07:45
bodies were later moved and he attempted to burn them and fled the area the car the family car was found on an isolated
00:07:57
Campground in Tennessee similar situation to that that the only person left the last man standing if you
00:08:07
will is labeled the suspect because that is the closest point we can get from perpetrator to
00:08:16
victims and he Bishop has been on the FBI's most wanted list since 2014 I believe so they're still looking
00:08:26
for him Charles Rogers is never made it onto any of these list I was looking for
00:08:34
uh state of Texas most wanted fugitives the Harris County Houston city FBI top 10 he's never made it onto any
00:08:45
of these lists now mind you a lot of these lists that exist today did not exist in
00:08:51
1965 when he allegedly killed his parents and fled the area the interesting thing though was they
00:09:00
believed or at least worked on several persons that they believed to have been Fred Rogers excuse me Charles Rogers now
00:09:10
part of that is it's a pretty common name so when they go oh there's a Charles Rogers in Oklahoma well we got
00:09:19
to go investigate him right it's just a common name there were several people they went to several different cities in
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Texas they went to Oklahoma I could find one case as far away as Michigan and this one looked like a really good lead
00:09:35
in Michigan because the Charles Rogers in Michigan had a pilot's license had his
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own plane they were very quickly able to figure out that the pilot's license did
00:09:49
not match up with that of the one Charles Rogers that they in fact were looking for there's even this weird
00:09:56
story too where locally on the local level they locked up a guy and the guy said he
00:10:02
was Charles Rogers and two people came forward and identified him as the Charles Rogers they were looking for
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they held him in jail for several days only to find out that the man was suffering from mental illness he was not
00:10:17
who he said he was and the two people that identified him they simply were mistaken it was somebody else entirely
00:10:24
what became of this though is Charles Rogers became somewhat of a gat and he really became like the local
00:10:33
Boogeyman for the kids of that neighborhood and for the kids of Houston it was said that for several
00:10:40
weeks after the discovery of the bodies the police were guarding the house this is for several reasons one they thought
00:10:50
that there was a decent chance that Charles Rogers might return to the home at some point got to catch
00:10:56
him the other thing was they were worried worried that vandals would come and vandalize the
00:11:02
home they couldn't do anything this would be the banks and the police they couldn't do anything with the home
00:11:10
because the owners regardless of how you shake this thing out we talked about how Charles
00:11:17
owned half the house or maybe he owned the entire house the rightful owner of the home be it his parents and him or
00:11:25
Charles by himself they could not locate them so they couldn't just confiscate the home take over the home and take all
00:11:32
the belongings out of there so they watched the house for several weeks they didn't have any instance
00:11:39
where Charles Rogers returned to the house they were not able to find him then what happens in this bizarre story
00:11:48
is they would go and periodically check on the house from time to time after several years had gone by now mind you
00:11:57
the house by this point has been abandoned for a long time the yard probably looks crazy the the house
00:12:05
probably looks scary and now you have these stories that are being told throughout the neighborhood of that's
00:12:12
the house where Charles Rogers killed his parents the police Cod to check on the
00:12:18
house they find a window in the side door were left open someone had entered the home and in the living room on the
00:12:30
wall someone wrote I killed my parents I am the Killer and whoever did this they
00:12:37
believe rifled through the drawers and and looked for any potential valuables before leaving the home right this story
00:12:46
gets out and this scares the hell out of the neighborhood kids who are now being
00:12:53
told by some of the older kids things like you know somebody saw Charles Rogers peeking in their window last week
00:13:02
somebody saw Charles Rogers in the neighborhood there were even uh stories where the older kids would tell the
00:13:08
younger kids don't be out late at night by yourself or Charles Rogers will get you cut you up into pieces and flush you
00:13:17
down the toilet so yeah he became the local Boogeyman and in 1975 a Houston judge declared Charles
00:13:28
Rogers legally dead this is so the estate could be probated this is even though the case
00:13:35
still remained officially unsolved and open with Charles Rogers being the only suspect the house then is allowed to be
00:13:45
sold it sat there and sat there until they eventually demolished the home with the furniture still
00:13:53
inside I saw an article captain that said that the the Lots sat there vacant until 2000 until the year 2000 when
00:14:04
Condominiums were built in that lot and probably the surrounding area as well it's a very attractive building that
00:14:13
they built but the the neighbors were saying that whether it would be on Halloween or
00:14:19
the anniversary of the murders there would be people that would be there that would take pictures or light candles or
00:14:26
just people that are fascinated by the cas locally yeah in 2012 culture map Houston writer Sarah Rua wrote a
00:14:35
Chilling Tales article titled Houston's crime rate is low but its history is dark the city's five most notorious
00:14:43
murders the good news as the article starts out the year 2011 the city of Houston had fewer homicides than any
00:14:53
year since 1965 that is quite the accomplishment for a city as large as Houston oddly enough that is the fewest
00:15:01
amount of homicides since the year of the still unsolved double Frederick and edua Rogers homicides the list like most
00:15:11
places refer to this case as the ice boox murders which Sarah placed at the number four spot on their Houston's five
00:15:20
most notorious murders list the list also included the 2001 case of Andrea Yates who drowned her five children in
00:15:29
the bathtub of their home she was later found not guilty by reason of insanity due to postpartum depression and
00:15:37
psychosis the other cases listed are the Sunday morning slasher case The Killing
00:15:43
Fields case which we which for all of the good people out there listening on Stitcher we covered
00:15:50
this in our Killing Fields Trilogy in August of 2017 and finally the serial killer Dean
00:15:57
Coral the case which we covered as well in our Candyman episodes in October of 2018 so certainly this case remains on
00:16:08
the minds of people at the local level and as you said Captain very much now folklore and local legend in the Houston
00:16:18
area well like we both said chances are he's the most likely suspect but what would his motives be well there are two
00:16:27
prevailing theories as far as motive for murder here because if we trace this thing it appears that he lived with his
00:16:35
parents for a good deal of time and then it something happened that made him murder his parents and some have
00:16:43
suggested that it was always building up to this that the hatred that he had for
00:16:50
his father that the disagreements that he had with his mother him being weird them being weird his father potentially
00:16:57
being abusive both physically and verbally to his son some have even suggested that this carried on into
00:17:06
Charles's adult life and may have still been going on roughly about the time of the murders that it was this abuse that
00:17:15
led to him losing it reacting and killing both of his parents but the icing on the cake being that they were
00:17:25
cheating him financially as well and at some point he discovered this and chose to seek revenge against his parents and
00:17:36
kill them both there is evidence to suggest that a couple of things were going on here one that they were
00:17:45
stealing money from their son the way that these reports go Captain I want to be clear here some
00:17:52
state that both parents were knowing and willingly doing this other reports state
00:17:57
that the father was the one doing this yeah but they were stealing money from their son and remember we mentioned that
00:18:06
there's evidence that says he owned a good deal of property elsewhere what has come to light is that he found evidence
00:18:15
that his parents forged the documents to make it appear as they were the owners of that property and what
00:18:27
they were doing was they were borrowing against that property basically they stole the land from him right and took
00:18:35
out a loan against that land the value of the land they're collecting money based off of this and then we already
00:18:43
talked about the weird stuff with the house did it belong to them did it belong to Charles did they was this a
00:18:51
situation where he actually paid for the entirety of the house and they forged documents to make it look like they
00:18:57
owned half of it but again you're saying this is all speculation we don't have any actual proof of this there is some
00:19:05
proof I don't have any that I can cite right here for you today but I I do believe that there's a good amount of
00:19:12
proof for this because we have a book that came out and this would have been in 2003 in October of 2003 Red Bud
00:19:25
publishing released the ice boox murders this is a novel written by Hugh and Martha Garder I'm hoping I'm saying
00:19:34
their name correctly according to a review in the Houston Press the ice boox murders is written as fact-based fiction
00:19:43
and supposition interesting that it's listed as this it's not listed as true crime
00:19:50
it's listed as fact-based fiction an interview with the authors Hugh states that 85% of the book is fact the other
00:20:01
15% is fiction they weren't able to get the True Crime category for their book based off
00:20:10
of that the case is still technically unsolved they believe that they've solved it one thing that I find
00:20:17
fascinating regarding the financials the financial element to the motive for murder here is that the married couple
00:20:26
that wrote the book The box murders they are both forensic accountants people that are able to take
00:20:36
documents review documents and then find out the reasons why and Trace everything
00:20:42
back to how numbers got to be numbers and how statements got to be statements and if in fact they are true or false
00:20:52
well this guy's missing and he's never been found how does and individual like this do
00:21:00
that the book itself in their Theory Captain is not without a certain level of conspiracy and that I think is why the
00:21:11
authors are saying Hey look it's 85% fact 15% fiction or left to the unknown because in the book there are many
00:21:22
unnamed characters and these are supposed to be various politicians real life politicians and attorneys as well
00:21:30
as possible eyewitnesses who may have saw Rogers in other countries after these murders or maybe even helped him or
00:21:42
employed him after he fled the Houston area and essentially fled the United States because of the discovery of his
00:21:51
killed parents one thing that the authors cite and this is something that was hold back
00:21:59
information in the ice boox murders case M it came out 3 years after the murders
00:22:07
so the murders were committed in 1965 well in 1968 there was a Houston Chronicle article where law enforcement
00:22:17
was asking the public for their help well you know for 3 years in the small area there was probably tons of rumors
00:22:25
coming out what they wanted was they wanted to identify a man who was using the name Anthony pittz or to have the
00:22:34
public come forward and point out and say hey I I know somebody using that name or I know Anthony pittz here is
00:22:42
where he is here is his location so they could go speak with him why would they want to talk to somebody named Anthony
00:22:49
pittz well they believe that this was an alias that Rogers was using to flee the
00:22:57
area the way that The Story Goes is within a day or two of the murders remember they
00:23:05
were able to really narrow that down to just a few hours either late Saturday or
00:23:11
early Sunday morning the couple was killed inside their home so this would have been Monday or
00:23:17
Tuesday of that same week a man went into an office building applying for a job a welder job
00:23:25
overseas now there's no no evidence to suggest that Charles Rogers was a welder ever was a welder at any point in his
00:23:34
life however the man matched Charles Rogers description and the key being here that the job was overseas if
00:23:43
Charles Rogers is as smart and Brilliant as they say he is I'm sure he thought he
00:23:47
could figure out how to fake his way at least to the point to getting out of the
00:23:52
country he applied for this out ofthe country welder job using the name Anthony pittz right what the
00:24:01
ice boox murders book authors the husband and wife Hugh and Martha put together they don't think that Charles
00:24:09
Rogers was as much of a recluse as what the papers would have us believe they think that he was out living a pretty
00:24:17
full life when he was away from his parents and away from the home so much so that he had a
00:24:24
girlfriend the way that the story all ties in is that they believe that Charles's girlfriend and they simply
00:24:32
give the first name only as Jean worked at that office building and he was going
00:24:39
there not so much so to try to get this job out of the country it was more of a way for him to get a vehicle
00:24:48
remember we said that both of the vehicles that belong to the Rogers family were inoperable the reports were
00:24:54
that they were up on blocks in the driveway of the home he needed a getaway car and his girlfriend Jean was going to
00:25:02
provide this to him he just had to go to the office and pick it up she didn't want to be tied to the murder house so
00:25:12
according to the authors Jean provided Charles Rogers with a 1959 Cadillac which he used to help him get to the
00:25:20
Mexico border or get to his Cessna airplane right that we referenced earlier to to get his ass out of the
00:25:30
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free all right we're back cheers mates cheers to you cap couple more twists and turns
00:27:34
to possibly think about in this case well Alice are you ready to go dive down the Giant Rabbit Hole yeah I got my
00:27:43
little dress on and I took my little crumpets you know this one you know this will make you drink this and makes you
00:27:48
smaller I like the one that makes me taller mhm so I'm going to drink my drink and let's Swan Dive down the old r
00:27:57
rabbit hole because there is another theory that takes much of the same aspects of that theory that we just
00:28:05
reviewed but it takes it a whole step further and what is that well that Charles
00:28:13
Rogers was somehow involved in the assassination of our 35th President of the United States John F
00:28:24
Kennedy yeah makes some sense just on the surface having said that this double homicide goes down in 1965 in Houston
00:28:34
Texas and Kennedy is shot and killed in Dallas in November of 1963 but the way that this general
00:28:44
theory works is that Rogers discovered that his parents were stealing money from him and frauding him out of his
00:28:53
property to which he says look I know what you guys are doing I don't know what threats they believe
00:28:59
were made if he threatened to kick them out of the house or have them arrested thrown behind bars or what but in
00:29:07
reaction to that argument about the financials the theory goes that edua said you know what you've been yeah
00:29:16
we've been stealing your money but you don't think that your father and I know what you've been up to for these last
00:29:22
few years yeah that you and your goony friends got together and plotted against the president and killed the president
00:29:33
and by the way we're going to keep stealing your money and keep abusing you and doing whatever we want as a form of
00:29:40
blackmail because we know that you were involved in the assassination of JFK yeah supposedly she was logging his
00:29:49
calls um again you'd think that law enforcement would be able to come out and say one tell me if he was even
00:29:59
living in that house but was he receiving a bunch of calls and where where they're coming
00:30:05
from yeah so this Theory I'm not going to I'm not going to try to sugarcoat it one bit there are plenty of holes in
00:30:14
this Theory just as there would be with any of the conspiracy theories for kind of Swiss cheese for the JFK
00:30:21
assassination so I don't want anybody out there going well the Nick the old Nick
00:30:27
he's gotten extra crispy in his recent days the old crispy Colonel and now theis is now falling off that's right
00:30:34
they they think they've solved JFK's murder well no that's not it but this is a very interesting story and one that
00:30:43
I'm been very pleased to have spent some time looking into recently the way that
00:30:48
this works is there were three men that were photographed by several Dallas area
00:30:56
newspapers yeah yeah they were under police escort near the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the
00:31:04
assassination of United States President John F Kennedy on November 22nd 1963 they're referred to as the three tramps
00:31:14
the three tramps the three transients were all men as the captain just said later commonly referred to as the three
00:31:23
tramps right according to Vincent buosi allegations that these men were involved in a conspiracy against the
00:31:34
president originated from theorist Richard sprag who compiled the photographs in 1966 and
00:31:43
1967 and then gave them to Jim Garrison Jim Garrison was the attorney that was going after and leading the
00:31:52
investigation of Clay Shaw who he believed was involved in the conspiracy murder of John Kennedy now appearing
00:32:01
before a nationwide audience on January 31st 1968 on The Tonight Show Jim Garrison a
00:32:11
guest on The Tonight Show he held up a photo of the three tramps right and suggested that they were involved in the
00:32:20
assassination well and one of the reasons people believe this is because we we do have proof that these three
00:32:28
guys were arrested they all gave three fake names and they were they all were released correct and ever since then
00:32:38
ever since Garrison his appearance on the tonight's show there have been various upon various allegations of
00:32:47
who or the identities of the three men that were arrested that day and called and labeled the three tramps now Rogers
00:32:56
is father Fred Rogers had kind of a sunken in chin and so you can compare one of the three Tramps and go okay well
00:33:05
that guy has a sunken in chin he has a straight pointy nose that would be consistent with Charles but there's so
00:33:13
few pictures of Charles that it's really hard to look at any pictures of the tramps there's so few pictures of the
00:33:21
tramps to look at either one of those and say that that's Charles Roger I can't look at it um and and say that's
00:33:31
Charles Rogers to me well the thing that's difficult about Charles Rogers is there's not a whole lot of photos that
00:33:39
exist of this man and often the photos that we are seeing would be things like his senior picture in high school we
00:33:46
would also be looking at his days in the Navy when he was photographed in the Navy so I don't know that you have a lot
00:33:53
of great comparisons when trying to compare his picture to that of one of the three tramps what is interesting
00:34:02
though is that we have Lois Gibson she worked with the Houston Police Department she was a forensic
00:34:10
artist so she is the person that's going to make these composite sketches of suspects that we see at the post office
00:34:20
or released on fbi.gov and what have you Lois Gibson is the one that's said to have identified Charles Rogers as what
00:34:31
is known as the small [ __ ] [ __ ] number three [ __ ] number three he was the the
00:34:37
shortest of the three tramps according to Lois Gibson and he was a shorter man he was listed at 5 fo s or
00:34:48
5'8 and she says that he she believes he was the small [ __ ] she also identified
00:34:56
char Char Harrison to be that of the tall [ __ ] and chy Holt she identified him as being
00:35:07
well my list here says the third [ __ ] um yeah I mean well it depends on what pictures you look at and depends on
00:35:16
who's labeling them um oh I wonder if he's called the third [ __ ] in this version because they show a picture of
00:35:24
the three of them being led away from the area right and he's the last one he's the last one in the picture but the
00:35:31
but the first one in the picture is who people think maybe Charles would be so these three tramps they're located in
00:35:38
the general vicinity of where Kennedy's assassinated and what's interesting is these are the tramps that were over by
00:35:46
the the railroad and the grassy null area yeah and so a lot of people think they were dressed as something else and
00:35:56
then change close um they did get arrested they were let go but they gave fake names so how
00:36:04
how would you be let go when you give fake names I mean I know there's a lot going
00:36:09
on in that town but a lot of people believe that this is part of the conspiracy because some people higher up
00:36:17
people were able to get them out that maybe they worked for the CIA or they worked for the
00:36:23
FBI um but the only thing that really stands out to me when you're looking at those
00:36:31
pictures and I'll post those on Instagram as well is Charles has a it's almost like
00:36:37
his right ear is a little different than his left ear and it's more more of a circle and it kind of sticks out a
00:36:42
little bit more mhm and if you look at the pictures of [ __ ] number three definitely has the same type of
00:36:48
situation going on with his right ear as well it almost looks like like a deformity like almost like a wrestler
00:36:56
would have but um yeah that's the only thing that kind of sticks out to me to go oh may
00:37:03
maybe maybe that could be him but then when you look at possible other pictures of um Charles when he gets a
00:37:12
little older what maybe they think he he would have looked like or what it it doesn't look anywhere close
00:37:20
to him what's interesting here is there is a little proof in the pudding there is some reason to speculate that this is
00:37:28
a possibility and I think we should continue down that rabbit hole so we have John R Craig and Philip a Rogers no
00:37:39
relation to Charles Rogers in the early 90s they released a book called the man on the grassy null did the CIA hire a
00:37:48
psychopath to assassinate JFK now the psychopath is Charles Rogers but also could be Charles
00:37:59
Harrison right now who is Charles harelson Charles harelson is Woody Harrelson's
00:38:06
father yeah this is a weird story but this sounds like we're making this up right and and and and then that
00:38:14
was the father of who well cheers I almost feel bad telling this story because Woody harelson is one of my
00:38:22
favorite actors he's amazing I feel like I'm like I'm just doing it to service to
00:38:27
a man that I I enjoy his work very much in September of 1982 Contract Killer Charles harelson this is one
00:38:36
thing that you got to factor in here nobody's really arguing that two of these three men that they're saying
00:38:42
could be the three tramps have already murdered other people or went on to murder other people
00:38:48
so they're known killers that they're filling the shoes of these three Tramps in September of 1982 Charles harelson
00:38:58
while wanted for the murder of federal judge John Wood Jr quote unquote confessed to killing the judge and
00:39:07
President Kennedy during a six-hour standoff with police which later it was determined that harelson was high on
00:39:17
cocaine we have several witnesses that that witnessed this man state that not only did I kill the judge but I killed
00:39:27
President Kennedy as well these Witnesses later testified that they didn't really
00:39:35
believe harelson but these are words that Charles harelson said a known killer yeah and the way that the book
00:39:43
puts this Theory together the man on the grassy null is that you had harelson a contract killer someone that you could
00:39:52
hire to go off and kill someone and Charles R rers someone who we know spent time in the Navy served in World War II
00:40:03
that these two men were going to be additional shooters that they would be the ones
00:40:10
shooting of the Two Tramps in this Chanty halt would be a lookout right and the way that this Theory works is that
00:40:20
they were involved with the CIA they were CIA operatives and they were also work with
00:40:27
Oswald and what's interesting one thing that I found fascinating in the book itself is they show a
00:40:34
picture anybody that's seen the movie JFK by Oliver Stone will know exactly what I'm talking about there they spent
00:40:41
a good portion of that movie and I understand that it's a movie but they spent a good portion of that movie in
00:40:48
New Orleans where they show Lee Harvey Oswald passing out leaflets for the Cuba movement or whatever ever they were
00:40:56
calling it right well they show a picture in this book of Lee Harvey Oswald passing out said leaflets the
00:41:03
fair play for Cuba leaflets in New Orleans this on August 16th 1963 this is not just some random
00:41:13
photograph this is a photograph from wdsv TV New Orleans in the picture you can see reporters you can see several
00:41:24
other persons all dress like Oswald this is dark pants white button-up shirt with
00:41:31
a tie passing out these leaflets in this picture here Chanty Holt who is later said to be one of the three tramps
00:41:43
identifies a man who is on the far right of this picture as as being Charles Rogers who he says he didn't know as
00:41:54
Charles Rogers he knew him under the name of Richard Montoya and he says that it he was an
00:42:00
agent that he worked with with Oswald he was a CIA agent is what you're saying according to this Chanty halt
00:42:11
right and there's also evidence or belief that Oswald had a office in um in like the CIA or the
00:42:23
FBI they had a building that Oswald had a office with inside so there's other people that have
00:42:32
made those claims that Oswald has work for our government in many different capacities right and again this theory
00:42:41
has quite a bit of holes to it and really the interlocking Theory here is that in some form or fashion all four
00:42:52
including Oswald chony Hol Charles R rers and Charles harelson were all working contracted or employed by the
00:43:03
CIA during this assassination of JFK right well think about the difference that would have made after Oswald was
00:43:17
shot and killed if they would have said oh by the way he was working for the government wait so the guy that you
00:43:23
arrested that you believe killed the president was working for the government that seems a little
00:43:31
fishy well I'm not going to lie the pictures that I've seen and been able to compare uh to the ones where chony Holt
00:43:39
are saying look in this picture taken in August of 63 in New Orleans it does appear to me
00:43:49
that Lee Harvey Oswald's in the picture as well as a man that Lois Gibson later ident identified as Charles Rogers and
00:44:00
that chony Holt later identified as Charles Rogers one thing that's important here too that that's
00:44:08
interesting is that in the mid1 1950s Charles Rogers joined the Civil Air Patrol where he reportedly met David
00:44:17
Ferry who is believed to be a possible alleged conspirator in the assassination of President Kennedy as well isn't he
00:44:26
the only man that has actually been brought to trial no that was Clay Shaw that was
00:44:33
that was brought to trial by Garrison but again somebody that people made a bunch of claims against saying that he
00:44:40
knew who osal was he denied it and then later they found pictures and then found
00:44:46
out that they were in the same uh Civil Air Patrol so it's as much as there's holes
00:44:56
there's a lot that are connecting the dots at least before we move on I do want to
00:45:02
mention Charles harelson was three times tried for murder this is three separate
00:45:08
murders this would be the murder of Allan Berg Sam deelia and the murder of Judge John
00:45:16
hwood Jr that is the one that during the standoff for his arrest he admitted to killing the judge and Kennedy
00:45:26
this is how you tie him to being one of the three Tramps and he does look like one of them he went on to be convicted
00:45:34
of two homicides and later I know that he attempted to escape prison on at least one
00:45:44
occasion now the problem here though Captain is where this story falls apart of the
00:45:55
these three men two of them one a known killer the other Charles Rogers believed
00:46:03
very much to be a killer mhm where this falls apart is it looks like shortly after the release of the book The Man
00:46:14
from the grassy null the three tramps were identified and none of them were what Lois Gibson said uh Charles Rogers
00:46:22
Charles harelson or chony Hol yeah but I think I think the three tramps have been
00:46:29
identified a million times now I don't know if they've been correctly identified correct right they it's been
00:46:38
again various allegations of who the three tramps were throughout the history ever since Garrison held up that photo
00:46:46
on The Tonight Show this has been going on since the late 60s I mean some people
00:46:51
say these guys were arrested whoever they put their names down as that's who they were and they
00:46:58
maybe had ID or had somebody check it out or whatever and then there's other people that have said these guys were
00:47:04
arrested and they used fake names so I mean I I have never heard um any solid confirmation other than look at this
00:47:15
picture and compare it with this other picture well this is another confusing explanation but the explanation goes is
00:47:23
this that the three tramps were identified died in 1992 as Gus Abrams Harold Doyle and John
00:47:31
gney this is from journalist Mary leontin who discovered the November 22nd 1963 arrest records that the Dallas
00:47:42
Police Department had released in 1989 which named the three men as Gus W Abrams Harold Doyle and John F gidney
00:47:54
according to the arrest report reports the three men were taken off a box car in the railroad yards right after
00:48:01
President Kennedy was shot detained and investigated as prisoners described as unemployed and passing through the
00:48:09
Dallas area then released four days later an immediate search for the three men by the FBI and others prompted by an
00:48:18
article by Ry and Mary leontine on the front page of the February 9th 19 1992 Houston Post less than one month later
00:48:30
the FBI reported that Abrams was dead and that interviews with gidney and Doyle revealed no new information about
00:48:39
the assassination right it being the FBI's claimed that they tracked down all three of these men and none of them used
00:48:47
a fake name when they were arrested and this report stating that the three Tramps in air quotes were held for about
00:48:56
four days interviewed by a current affair remember that old TV show in 1992 Doyle came forward said that he was
00:49:06
aware of the allegations and did not come forward for fear of being implicated in the assassination he added
00:49:12
quote I am a plain guy a simple country boy that's the way I want to stay I wouldn't be a celebrity for 10
00:49:20
million gidney independently affirmed Doyle's account and a researcher who Tracked Down
00:49:28
Abram's sister confirmed that Abrams lived the life of a train Hopper and died in
00:49:35
1987 that all seems pretty firm to me having two of the individuals coming forward and then the sister of the
00:49:43
deceased third [ __ ] stating yes everything seems on the up and up with these claims where it gets wonky is that
00:49:53
we have people that that push the idea and there's probably some proof to back this up I'm
00:49:59
guessing I've not seen it I don't know but uh they're saying look Dallas Police have claimed to have lost the records of
00:50:09
these arrests as well as the mug shots and the fingerprints so what are we to believe about the identity of these
00:50:17
quote unquote three tramps yeah because if you gave me enough time I probably could actually pull up three maybe six
00:50:25
different names that I've read in the past that don't match those names that that you're just given in that report
00:50:33
but but that's the problem with this case or the problem with the the JFK assassination case what's really
00:50:40
interesting is the ice box murders which is a very different book from that of the man on the grassy null I do want to
00:50:49
point out here with the man on the grassy null the authors I'm sure they worked their butts
00:50:56
off putting together this book it's a incredibly interesting book I it was a fascinating read now a question for you
00:51:05
however I don't want to jump way off subject I just want to point this out the picture on the cover of the man with
00:51:14
grassy null that's supposed to be Charles Rogers yes right I I'm just going to throw this out there
00:51:23
because I was watching a um that new show it's like it's not Unsolved Mysteries but it's called something like
00:51:31
that with uh Lawrence Fishburn okay and they were going over the DB Cooper case mhm and it wouldn't be that far off of a
00:51:43
a match for Charles Roger I mean I think they have DB Cooper being a little bit taller but but not a lot
00:51:53
taller um but I could see that photo matching a little bit of the the composite sketch yeah I guess I mean Charles
00:52:05
Rogers looks like your pretty average Joe um there's nothing remarkable to me about his General
00:52:14
appearance so that that makes it difficult you could lump him in a whole bunch of different
00:52:21
ways the the problem with the theory put forth and the man on the grassy null is it really just seems to be a theory
00:52:31
based off of Lois Gibson saying look these three men's pictures match the pictures that I've seen and I have of
00:52:41
the three Tramps and then they are compounding that with this quote unquote cocaine confession of Charles harelson
00:52:51
while he's in the middle of a standoff and shootout with police right so it's very very very Loosey
00:53:00
Goosey now what isn't Loosey Goosey is the book The Ice Box murders both of those authors
00:53:08
say we believe Charles Rogers murdered his parents took this Cadillac got out of Dodge hopped in his Cessna and went
00:53:19
down to South America where he lived and worked for several years and that no one
00:53:26
he was being aided and embedded by people that still lived in the United States in the state of Texas they didn't
00:53:33
come forward to turn Charles Rogers in because he was making a good amount of money for them in their mining
00:53:40
operations down in South America right it's helping them find gold and oil very valuable things and what happened to
00:53:51
Charles Rogers according to the ice boox murders book they did say the thing that's interesting is look we couldn't
00:53:59
find anything to connect him directly to the assassination of John F Kennedy however we found things that do connect
00:54:08
him to the CIA they don't say he ever worked for them or was contracted by the CIA but they said it is certainly
00:54:17
possible they left that window open what they believe happened to Charles Rogers is that was a wage
00:54:26
dispute at one of these mining operations and the the miners attacked him and killed him with a pickaxe and
00:54:34
threw his body in a river and because of the nature of the attack the heat the river itself the body was not able to be
00:54:45
fully identified the best that they could come up with was a known associate of Charles Rogers was this man named
00:54:53
John Mackey who was running mining businesses in Honduras and Mexico the Honduras authorities went to John Macky
00:55:04
saying that an American geologist had been killed by a group of miners with a pickaxe they threw him in the river
00:55:12
could you identify this man he said I don't know who he is but again this book is not considered to be
00:55:23
factual it's considered to be partially factual 85% factual so their claim there
00:55:29
is that that Charles Rogers would have been working for and making money for John Mackey at the time that he was
00:55:37
killed by these miners yes which is very possible I'm sorry back to the whole point of the DB Cooper History's
00:55:46
Greatest Mysteries it's hosted by Lawrence Fishburn they took on the DB Cooper case what's interesting about
00:55:54
what they found cuz normally when they take on these greatest Mysteries they walk away
00:56:00
with whatever they started this uh is different they actually walked away with DNA that they're going to be able to
00:56:09
present to the FBI so now they believe they have DB Cooper's DNA on file and I'm saying just for the record that's a
00:56:18
very far stretch that Charles Rogers is you know connected at all with the Cooper or that he would be DB Cooper but
00:56:28
or connected with JFK or yeah or oswal or any of them but it's so fascinating that you have this horrific
00:56:37
murder and the number one suspect goes missing and we know that he worked for you know he was in the Navy so he has
00:56:47
other those connections but he has also these connections and oil where we know oil
00:56:55
a lot of money money equals power he would have a lot of resources to go like you said and possibly live his life
00:57:03
somewhere else which if he's responsible for these murders there's no way he should be
00:57:10
living around anybody it's an intriguing case it's still technically opened even
00:57:17
though Houston Police believe that Charles Rogers is absolutely responsible for the murder of his parents what of
00:57:25
Charles Rogers we don't know and he's never been found even to this day all these years later it's an intriguing
00:57:32
case an intriguing conversation with intriguing [Music] [Music] possibilities thanks for joining us here
00:57:52
in the garage for more True Crime garage. download the Stitcher app and check out our bonus show called off the
00:57:58
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