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Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick and
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Yeah, and we ship them all out ourselves. I mean, we package them, and we do all the shipping. So, we you know,
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when you get your shirt, I I have touched that shirt. Causing it to go down in value, of
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course. Anyway, that's enough of the business, Captain. Everybody gather around, grab a chair. Let's grab a beer
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and talk some true crime. On the evening of May 16th, 2005 in the town of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, the
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sheriff's department, they find the lifeless bodies of three people inside of the Groene-McKenzie
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household. They find both of the adults, as well as a teenage boy. His name is Slade Groene. Now, we have two missing
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children here, 9-year-old Dylan and 8-year-old Shasta. It takes about 7 weeks, but Shasta is located in a
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Denny's restaurant with a strange man in the middle of the morning. Now, this would be July 2nd.
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On Sunday, July 3rd, the man that was with Shasta was identified as Joseph Duncan III.
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Yeah, so who is Joseph Duncan? Joseph Duncan is 42 years old. He's a white uh male. He's a registered sex offender and
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he's from Fargo, I believe. Yeah, Fargo, North Dakota. Now, they are holding him because they want to charge
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him with two counts of kidnapping. Uh charges that in in that state, if you're convicted, um they come with possible
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sentences of life in prison or possibly the death penalty. Now, it's time for detectives to
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question young Shasta. And they need a lot of information from from this little girl. You know, where had the man taken
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her? Where was she for for 6-7 weeks? What happened that night at the Groene-McKenzie home? And of course,
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where is Shasta's brother, Dylan? That's the first question you should be asking.
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Well, and of course we have this situation here, Captain, where Joseph Duncan, he does not appear that he's
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willing to talk with the sheriff's department. So, as we said, they're going to have to learn this information
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from Shasta. And some of what Shasta knew and understood about the crimes, Shasta actually learned from Duncan
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himself. Okay. Duncan told her several times about details of the murders of Shasta's
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family. And he was and and furthermore, what he was doing to Dylan while they were out
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on the run, let's say. Uh Duncan told Shasta that that he was turned on when he had spotted her and
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Dylan in the front yard. He was driving around. Uh we can assume probably looking for a victim or looking to
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victimize somebody. He states that he sees the two of them in the front yard. He's turned on by the young girl. She's
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wearing a bathing suit at the time when when he sees them. It is This is when he
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decides that he was going to take the little boy and take the little girl. Okay.
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Now, Duncan told her that he had watched the house and the family for a couple of
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days. He's not specific on how many days these were. Um but he says that he would he would
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creep up to the windows at night when the lights were out. And he See, he had night vision goggles that he brought
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with him on this trip. And he would creep up to the windows when the lights are out, when the family is sleeping,
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and he was looking in the window so he could get an accurate layout of the inside of the home, because he was
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planning his attack. Right. And he was waiting for the right time to strike. Well, on the night of the
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murders, um there's a couple of different reports here, and I think maybe the confusion is
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where was Dylan, where was Shasta. But but the way that the story goes is this is that at some point on the night of
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the murders, um Shasta's mother, Brenda, she came into her room and asked her to come out
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into the living room. Shasta was asleep at this point. And then she calls out to
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Dylan, and Dylan then joins them in the living room as well. Now, Shasta says that when she got there,
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um that this is the first time she sees this strange man. She's never seen him before, and he's in the living room with
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her family members. At this point, um Mark McKenzie is already bound, and he's on the ground. And then we also have
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Slade, who is bound just with the hands, uh but he's on the floor as well. Then it's at this point that the strange
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man, he ties up Shasta's mother, Brenda. Mhm. The man she says is wearing dark clothing, and he's wearing dark gloves,
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black gloves. So, after Duncan has the two adults and the one teenager bound, he's going to
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then take the eight and nine-year-old, bound them up, and then bring them out to a pickup truck that he has parked in
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their I'm guessing their driveway. Yeah, he has it he has it parked somewhere on the property. He puts them
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in the pickup truck, and then he goes back inside. Now, Shasta says that the kids uh in the pickup truck, they heard
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several screams coming from the house um after Duncan had returned, but eventually
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the night went silent. Eventually, they hear hear nothing else coming from the inside.
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Right. Uh she does say that at one point, um that Dylan and Shasta, that she saw her
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older brother Slade walk outside. And then he walked back inside again. Um when Shasta reported this to
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authorities, she said that her brother Slade was already extremely bloody at this point when he walked outside and
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then returned. And in her words, uh he was probably brain dead at this point. Wow.
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Uh then they see Joseph Duncan come out of the house and he drove the pickup truck over to the neighbor's property
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and then took the kids from the pickup truck and he placed them into a red Jeep Cherokee and they drove off. Now, later
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Joseph Duncan told both Dylan and Shasta that on the night of the murders, he had
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parked the Cherokee on Robert Hollingsworth property after dark. And he walked over to the uh McKenzie-Groner
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property. Duncan had brought several items with him including the duct tape, the zip
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ties. He also brought a flashlight and a rifle and a claw hammer. Once on the property, he was actually
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confronted by the family's dogs outside. He had aimed the gun at both of them and
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they they were disturbed by this and they ran off. Uh and then he discovered that the side
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door to the house was unlocked. He let himself in and then made his way uh to to look for the adult man in the house.
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Um apparently after he had the victims tied up is when he got the keys for that pickup truck. He got the keys for the
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pickup truck from Mark McKenzie himself after he had tied them up. Right. So, after they're in the red Jeep
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Cherokee, where do where does he take um where does he take the two kids? Well, apparently
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Joseph Duncan had shown Shasta on on map where he took the two children. And so just days after Shasta is found,
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she's able to show authorities that her and her brother Dylan, they were held at
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two different camp camping areas. Uh one of the two uh this is an area in north in the
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northwest part of Montana, only about a 2-hour drive east from the Groene McKenzie home where the two children
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were taken from. Now, law enforcement searched this area. This is a remote area near St. Regis, Montana.
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Mhm. And on July 10th, 2005, they announced that they had located and recovered the remains of Dylan Groene.
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Mhm. There were many many rumors regarding the boy's death and what Shasta and Dylan had experienced while being held
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captive. All of the newspapers, news outlets, and magazine TV shows were discussing these
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rumors. Um And like well, like we said though before, I mean Joseph Duncan is a registered sex offender. Now we know
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what the motive was and we know that he had these two children in a remote location. So we know what his motive is.
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Yes, we know he took them for a sexual purposes. Uh he he molested them and he did things to both of them for several
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weeks. Um like I said, what what we do know is that Dylan died from a gunshot. Um it
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was a gunshot to the head. Uh like I said, there were many rumors regarding his death and what Shasta witnessed or
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was forced to participate in. Uh I don't really want to go through all of the rumors. Um I mean, there's a lot
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of them and they're pretty pretty grim. Um but but there are two that I will go through because I find these to be
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likely scenarios. Um one rumor was that Dylan was dismembered after his death. And this this could be. This this could
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be likely. Um they they identified the remains uh and they they the method to do that
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was using DNA testing. And it is possible that that wasn't their preferred method, but that it was a
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necessi- you know, Necessity, right. Right. Because the way the remains were found that that the only way to identify
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them would could have been one of the ways that Duncan was trying to cover his tracks.
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You're exactly right. The The other The other and I apologize um Uh but this is not as bad as some of the
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other rumors that were being reported at the time. Uh but but one rumor was that
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the attacks on the boy were were very similar to to one of Duncan's earlier assaults. For you know, one of the
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reasons why he was a registered sex offender. Right. Uh it was similar to one of the crimes
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that he had committed in his past. Okay, so what's the you know, what's the loose background
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on uh this Joseph E. Duncan? Okay, so while he is, you know, like we said, they're they're wanting to press
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charges for kidnapping on him. Now we found the body of Dylan. One thing that I like that that the FBI and the
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sheriff's department did in this investigation and did in this case, Mhm. even once they had apprehended Joseph
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Duncan, they weren't quick to rush to anything. They they understood that you know what, we recovered all the victims,
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we've recovered one of them thankfully alive, we have a survivor. Right. And now we have the guy that we believe
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100% committed this crime completely by himself. They had to they wanted to do their due diligence and rule out that
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Joseph Duncan had no connection to the family. Um and so they they're sitting on
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everything they need. I think that they did it did it the right way to take it one step at a time. Now during this time
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they want to learn everything they can about Joseph Duncan III. Right. And we already know because of
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these acts that he's a flaming pile of horse [ __ ] So, his past, Captain, and his his
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previous crimes, uh Duncan was born in '63. It sounds like his family moved around from time
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to time because of his father's career in the military. Uh however, most reports show that
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Joseph he was he was mostly raised in Tacoma, Washington. Uh there are some conflicting reports
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regarding the family itself. Uh he was one of five children and one of his brothers states that they had a very
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normal childhood. There was no abuse in the in the household growing up where he
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has a sister that that says the complete opposite that there was that was a very
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abusive uh setting and that there was all kinds of problems going on. uh physical, emotional, mental
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It sounds like sexual. It sounds like um mostly physical and emotional type abuse is what she
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describes. Uh but again, she describes a completely different picture than what was painted by the brother. So,
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who who knows what was going on. Um but in in 1978, uh at this point Joseph would be at the
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age of 15. Mhm. Um he molested a 9-year-old boy at gunpoint. Um and and I don't think he
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was ever caught for this. Uh I I think he actually reported this incident to a psychiatrist later in life. Uh the
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following year, Joseph stole a car and he led police on a car chase and he was caught when he attempted to bust through
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a police barricade. Uh for this crime, he gets sent to a juvenile detention center.
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It is here that he confided in therapist that he had raped and molested some boys. And he he estimated that he had
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sexually assaulted 13 boys that were younger than him by the time he was 16. In 1980
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But they're going to charge him with these? No, he says this to a therapist uh when
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he's serving time in in the detention center. Well, one of the things that we've
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talked about and and I'll post it on Instagram. It To me, it's one of the creepiest photos of this
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whole case is, you know, Joseph E. Duncan. I mean, he looks little. And then right in front of him, you
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know, black and white sex offender. Mhm. So, he gets charged as a sex offender at
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some point. Right. Right. And this is this takes place from an incident in 1980. This is
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after having been released from juvie. So, now Joseph decides to break into a home. Uh this is a home in his
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neighborhood. Mhm. Uh he says that there's an old man there that he knew he had several guns and
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ammunition. He wanted to break into the home and steal the guns. So, he does. Um and it's similar to it's a little bit
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similar to the murders that he would go on to commit later in life where he would he would go up and he would peek
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in the window of this home and he waited for his his moment to strike. Uh he said
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that he basically hid in the shadows and broke into the home where he believed nobody could see him. He steals the gun.
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He steals some ammo. Um and after this, he decides that, you know, he's kind of riding out this high from from breaking
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into this home, he decides he wants to have some kind of sex, right? So, he he sees a 14-year-old boy uh who is
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walking to school alone. Mhm. Um he using the gun, he abducts the boy and he takes him into the woods and he
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assaults him. After the assault, uh Joseph Duncan beat the boy with sticks that he found in the
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area and he burned him with a cigarette. Um But they the the kid would live. Yes. Yes, he he ends up letting the boy
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go. Um he he tells after he's done doing whatever he did, uh he tells him to run
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away and not to tell anybody. You know, he threatens him, "Don't tell anybody." Well, not too long after Joseph Duncan
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[ __ ] I'm not going to tell anybody. Well, yeah, Joseph Duncan goes home, and not too long after the attack, he's
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actually picked up by police for that crime. He's charged and convicted for that crime.
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Good Good for the the victim. Yes. And And they sentenced Joseph Duncan to 20 years in prison.
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Well, uh he was released 14 years later um with several stipulations. One, that he live in a halfway house. Uh and he
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was on parole, and he was to have no contact with minors. Uh he would continue to be in and out of
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jail and halfway houses for some time. I don't want to bog down the show and go through every little charge, violation,
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or jail stint. Well, it wouldn't be the first time you bogged down the show. But Joseph Duncan basically was in
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prison from 1980 until 1994. I also do want to point out that he was not labeled He was labeled as a sex
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offender, but not labeled as a pedophile because uh he was young at the time as well. And
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And both he and the victim uh were less than 5 years apart in age. So, there That's the the cause of that.
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Um and then because of a parole violation, he is in prison back in 1997 until the year 2000.
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After his release in 2000, he moved to Fargo, North Dakota, where he enrolled in college. Uh per his per his parole
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requirements, he had registered as a sex offender when arriving in North Dakota.
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They have Duncan listed as a level three sex offender. Now, what does that mean?
00:21:12
Okay. I'm really confused because you said that he didn't have to be because the victim was the same age.
00:21:18
No, he's a sex offender, but but according to prison psychiatrist, he's not listed as a pedophile. He's a sex
00:21:25
offender, but not a pedophile because they were within five years of I should have been I should have been
00:21:30
paying a little bit better attention. Wake up. I'm sorry. I'm I'm here. I'm here.
00:21:36
Okay. So So they have They have him listed as a level three sex offender. What does that mean?
00:21:42
Joseph Duncan became a level three sex offender because his crime included the following: a non-parental kidnapping of
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a minor and a sexual act committed with the threat of bodily harm or death. So level three or tier three, as more
00:21:59
properly called by the sex offender registry, is the highest, meaning the worst level of sex offender there is.
00:22:07
Okay. Okay. So if if prison {slash} jail time is required for the offense, the following must be adhered to upon
00:22:15
release. If you are a tier one offender, you are required to register as a sex offender for 15 years. If you are two If
00:22:24
you're a tier two offender, Mhm. you register for 25 years. And a tier three sex offender is required to
00:22:32
register as a sex sex offender for life. Okay. Right here, I wanted to go through
00:22:38
some of the recidivism rates here. The the rate that someone previously convicted of a crime later after a
00:22:45
release often offends again. Okay. We you know Here's the thing. The repeat offender.
00:22:53
Right. What's the percentage? Well, I wanted to go through these rates and I I got to looking into it, and then
00:23:00
I decided that that we won't do that. And I tell you why. Well, thanks for bringing it up.
00:23:04
No, but I I'll tell you why, okay? There have been some very good studies conducted over the years. But as we
00:23:11
review them, we will just we will just have a bunch of garage army people going, "Huh? What are you talking
00:23:17
about?" Right. Uh and and so look. Like they're currently doing, huh? What's Nick doing?
00:23:24
What's Nick talking about? Look, I I looked at it I looked at the reports for a while, and I know that the
00:23:30
listeners are smarter than me, thank god. I had to read the studies three times, and then I decided it's too
00:23:35
boring. So, anyway, the tier three sex offenders have the highest rate of recidivism.
00:23:41
All right, so your point is that if you're tier three, you're more likely to repeat the crime.
00:23:45
Mhm. And we should keep in mind as well that sex crimes are largely unreported. So, even if we had the numbers in front
00:23:54
of us, I would strongly argue that the rates are unfair and much lower than what in reality they actually are.
00:24:01
Yeah, very true. And the thing here, Captain, is that what what me and you and the True Crime
00:24:07
Garage Army care about is the concern for the return to criminal behavior, and we all know that criminal behavior
00:24:14
doesn't always lead to arrest or convictions. But it certainly leads to victims,
00:24:20
doesn't it? And that's that's who all of us in the garage here are here to stand
00:24:24
up for. So, the thing here is after about 4 years of Duncan being out, we have a complaint against Joseph
00:24:34
Duncan. Well, okay, so but he moves, and he registers for college. Yep. And he's also registered a sex offender,
00:24:41
yep, but he's in college now. Correct. And he's studying Do we know what he's studying?
00:24:46
studying computers. Um and he and he was actually considered a a pretty good student, uh having made the Dean's List
00:24:53
a couple of times. Um you know, as much as as much as you and I dislike Joseph Duncan, he he can be an intelligent
00:25:01
person as far as as school goes and as far as books go. Clearly not intelligent enough to try to
00:25:11
correct himself and correct his ways after he's been given obviously several chances to do so. So, after after being
00:25:19
out for about 4 years, we get this complaint against him and the complaint goes like this, that on
00:25:24
July 3rd, 2004, there were two boys playing in a middle school playground. This is in Detroit
00:25:31
Lakes community in Minnesota. The boys ages are 6 and 8 years old. They see a small red car with a male
00:25:41
driver driver pull into the parking lot. The man gets out and apparently he has some kind of video camera with him. He
00:25:49
walks to a secluded area of the playground and he calls the two boys over. Once they're there, the man pulled down
00:25:57
the pants of one of the boys and he fondled him. And then he tried to do the same with
00:26:02
the other boy, but thankfully was unsuccessful. He There's a brief struggle with this
00:26:09
boy and then both of the boys run off. And of course at this point the man gets in his car, this is Duncan, and he
00:26:16
drives off. Well, the boys are able to provide a very good description of the man as well as the car that they saw
00:26:24
that day, right? So, the Detroit Lakes police using this information and using the description, they start checking the
00:26:33
sex offenders database and they find Joseph Duncan who matched not only the the description the physical description
00:26:42
given by the boys, but uh he had a small red car as well. His car matched the description as well.
00:26:49
So, the kids were were a photo lineup. It's this is an example of the system working.
00:26:54
You're Thank you, Captain. Thank you. The They're shown a photo lineup. And they both successfully pick Duncan from
00:27:03
this lineup. Mhm. And because they have all of his information in the database, they're
00:27:08
able to go and pick up Joseph Duncan for this crime, speak to him for it, arrest
00:27:13
him for it, and eventually charge him with this crime. Now, we will also point out a situation where maybe the system
00:27:21
did not work. We'll talk about that right after this quick beer break. All right, welcome back to True Crime
00:27:45
Gay Ridge. All right, Captain. We had talked about the system working. Let's talk about
00:27:51
where we start to run into problems here. The first problem presents itself, you
00:27:56
know, we said that he is going to be arrested and charged for this crime. The problem here, Captain,
00:28:02
we have a situation where we have a report. The report of this crime was misfiled or lost somewhere. For whatever
00:28:11
reason, Duncan's not going to face any justice here regarding this charge until about 9
00:28:17
months later. So, we have an We have an extreme delay in the process. Right. And to further that, you know, this
00:28:25
crime hap- happened in Minnesota. He's a registered sex offender in North Dakota.
00:28:31
But, I don't think that that is any excuse here that the court didn't know who they were dealing with. Right? This
00:28:37
should be easy, in my opinion. You know, we have a level three sex offender who,
00:28:42
according to these charges, may have reoffended and tried to do so against not one but two children.
00:28:49
I believe uh that Joseph Duncan had a either a public defender here or maybe he had a license, you know, a private
00:28:57
attorney at this point because he did have Captain, he had he actually had two well-to-do friends. Um one was a
00:29:06
physician and the other I believe he had been in real estate, but regardless both
00:29:10
had made a good living during their careers. And why are they friends with this scumbag?
00:29:17
Well, let's get into that a little bit. One of these friends, okay, ends up giving Joseph Duncan $15,000.
00:29:25
And he says that this is to aid in his defense or if there was to be a bail, well, it would probably help for both.
00:29:33
Mhm. But so his attorney, when he's facing these charges, his attorney asks that the bail be
00:29:40
reduced. That, you know, typically in a situation like this, we would see a a bail that
00:29:47
would be set at like $25,000 or more for a crime of this nature with a possible reoffender.
00:29:54
Mhm. So, the attorney for Joseph Duncan tells the judge that Duncan, this is in April,
00:30:00
right? April 2005. So, Duncan is due to graduate from college in May. The attorney asks that the bail be set at a
00:30:08
reasonable rate so that Duncan can get out of jail and he can attend he can attend to his affairs and complete his
00:30:17
graduation process. not how the world works. Right. But the judge ends up agreeing to
00:30:23
this and he sets the bail at $15,000. Right, how much money did they put in his pocket?
00:30:30
Mm, well, I don't know about don't know about that, but remember we said that Joseph Duncan got that
00:30:36
$15,000, that money from his friend. So, picture this, we have a level three sex
00:30:42
offender. Right. The bail is reduced to 15 grand and the defendant says, "No problem." Pulls out his checkbook
00:30:50
and he writes a personal check for $15,000, hands it to the bailiff, and boom, he's
00:30:56
released into the public. Right. Just walking around whistling Dixie. By the way, I heard that that check
00:31:03
bounced. You know, for that can't can't they can we Gotcha. Yeah, can we at least hold someone until
00:31:11
the check clears for starters? Yeah, that should be a that should that should easily be a rule.
00:31:17
Yeah, so so back to what the captain was saying and I'm sure everybody else is is
00:31:21
is scratching their heads. but I can just Hey, no problem. No problem. Let me just write you a check
00:31:27
for that. All right, free I go. It almost and I hate to to to joke around over something so serious, but it almost
00:31:37
it's as stupid to me as that part in Dumb and Dumber where he opens up the briefcase full of IOUs.
00:31:43
Yeah. You know, and he picks up one he's like, "$9,000." He's like, "Yeah, you might
00:31:47
want to hold on to that one." So anyway, cash. Like the Yeah, like the captain said,
00:31:54
and like I'm sure all of you out there are scratching your heads by now going, "How does this Joseph Duncan guy have
00:31:59
any friends at all? Especially one that would give him a loan or whatever you want to call it for 15 grand?"
00:32:07
Well, I'm going to go into this, but I want to be clear that that a lot of this here is
00:32:12
my is just my opinion. Uh but I believe there's plenty of evidence of this to back some of this
00:32:18
up. where you're going. So Joseph Duncan at different times in his life, he held many different
00:32:24
sexualities. You know, at some points in his life he was straight, he was gay, he
00:32:28
was a cross-dresser. Mhm. Uh I actually Very ugly cross-dresser. Yeah, not very good at it.
00:32:35
I actually don't believe that that he went from feeling one way to another at different points in his life. I
00:32:43
believe as noted in Duncan's prison files Mhm. from the time that he was a kid that he
00:32:49
was diagnosed as a sexual psychopath. Uh and I I do believe he was actually a pedophile. Um and and this this is a a
00:32:59
person that is a pedophile who would abduct and kill to fulfill his urges. I think that Joseph Duncan could
00:33:08
could have sex with anything really. And that that he was Okay. that he was a cons- that he was a
00:33:13
constant manipulator of situations that he found himself in. Okay. I think if he saw a situation where he
00:33:20
could benefit from being homosexual, well, then he was happy to play the part. I think that that's where these
00:33:27
friends may have come into play. Heck, one of these guys, just listen to this, okay?
00:33:32
One of the guys said to the courts Uh-huh. that he thought that Duncan could be rehabilitated with some counseling and
00:33:41
that the courts should release Joseph Duncan to him, to his care, where Joseph Duncan could come and live with him.
00:33:49
His wife and his two children, might I add these children were just of the age that Duncan would have liked.
00:33:57
This guy knew that Joseph Duncan was a sex offender. He knew of his sex offender status. He knew of his criminal
00:34:02
past and the crimes he was currently being charged with. I'll tell you what, if if I'm married to
00:34:07
someone and they say to me, "Hey, honey, let's let this level three sex offender
00:34:12
live with us and our kids. It will all work out." Well, I'm going to say, "No, but I'm also going to say, you know what
00:34:20
is a good idea? A vacation. Now, go take one by yourself because me and the kids
00:34:24
are throwing your ass out. So, pack your suntan lotion." Mhm. So, Joseph Duncan, he he is out now.
00:34:31
He's written this this check for $15,000. It's a rubber check. Mhm. And he's out and he's he's
00:34:38
he knows he's going to have to face these charges eventually. And I believe that that is what
00:34:45
triggered him. I believe that that is the trigger that that brought on what he called the demons to take him over. Now,
00:34:54
we have to point out here when the investigators were looking into his past, when they were looking into Joseph
00:35:00
Duncan's background, they learned he was going to school for computer. And he figured and they figured out
00:35:06
For computer? Well, for I I can't remember. I'm I'm struggling here to remember the exact
00:35:12
thing that he was going, but it was for Thank thank you, Gavin. I can just see For computer.
00:35:20
I can just see the kid going going home, you know, he's visiting his parents for a
00:35:27
uh for like you know, what's Christmas time. Hey, uh you grandparents ask him, "Hey, what are
00:35:34
you going Hey, Nick, what are you going to school for? What are you going to college for?"
00:35:38
Just say computer. Computer. I'm going to school for computer. I can't it All right. Well, the major's
00:35:45
a little more specific than that, but it involves it involves him going into that
00:35:50
line of work. They're making my day. So, they they are convinced that he's going to have some type of online
00:35:57
presence. And they tracked down some some resumes that he sent into different people looking for jobs.
00:36:05
Um they they they actually lock down his apartment. You know, they contact Fargo, North Dakota and they
00:36:14
contact the landlord and they they lock down his apartment so they can go through everything.
00:36:19
Right. And it's at this point that they discovered this Fifth Nail blog that we talked about in the first episode.
00:36:25
Right. Well, he's the creator of of this blog of this website. Well, and like you stated before, he
00:36:31
talked about offenses that he made prior to this. Mhm. And so these would be the offenses, you
00:36:38
know, these this rubber check that he wrote. These are the offenses that he's talking about on the blog.
00:36:44
Well, and the thing here is Captain, like I said, he's going to have to face this these charges eventually. He in his
00:36:50
mind, he knows he's going back to prison and probably maybe even for good at this
00:36:55
point. I don't know what the rules are on re-offending. Um but he's going to go away for a long
00:37:00
time. He faced 20 years the first time. And I think that this was the trigger that that that was the demons that he
00:37:07
talked about on his blog taking him over. And because he was going back to prison, he snapped and he thought, you
00:37:13
know what? I'm going to go out rather than go on the go to prison, I'm going out, I'm going on the run and I'm going
00:37:19
to kill and abduct until they catch me or kill me. Well, and some of the true crime army
00:37:25
might be they might go against me on this thought, but hear me out. So with killers or even sexual
00:37:32
offenders, they they a lot of the times talk about the urge, you know, I get this urge to kill. And we'll see it time
00:37:38
and time again with different serial killers where they try to fight the urges. Mhm.
00:37:44
And some serial killers, they don't even try to fight it. And some sexual offenders, they don't even try to fight
00:37:49
the urges. But there are some that do. So it's it's possibly that's kind of what he's talking about, too, is with
00:37:56
these demons where it's like, you know, maybe at certain points of his existence, he's
00:38:02
tried to fight these urges. Right. Which which he's calling demons. And now that he knows that, there's
00:38:10
really no future for him, why fight the demons? Mhm. Why not just let them take over?
00:38:16
Yeah. And, you know, not only were they looking into his background, Captain, but you know, the his arrest, when they
00:38:25
found him with with Shasta, and after they found the body of Dylan, and then they they connected him to this triple
00:38:33
homicide, they're starting to see this guy is not just a level three sex offender. No,
00:38:38
this guy is I mean, one of the worst of the worst, right? Is he a serial killer?
00:38:42
He's a serial killer, and he's capable of of monstrous things. Well, that's going to lead the FBI to launch a nation
00:38:50
nationwide review of unsolved missing children cases. Right. Um and they they wanted to see if he
00:38:59
during the times he was out, you know, what who went missing, where did they go missing from? They started looking at
00:39:05
cases that were everywhere as close to like 70 to 100 miles from where he was, all the way to about 7 or 800 miles away
00:39:14
from where he was living at the time. Uh they believed that because they had seen in
00:39:21
more than one situation by this point that he was capable of going to other states to commit these crimes.
00:39:28
So, he was actually implicated as a possible possible suspect in several crimes that
00:39:35
occurred between 1994 and 1997. This was when he was on parole the first time before he violated his parole and went
00:39:43
back to prison. Now, so So, a 3-year gap. Yes. And and who knows what happened then?
00:39:51
Right. And at this time, he would have been in the Seattle-Tacoma, Washington area. He was he was living in
00:39:58
that area when he was free from prison during this 3-year stint. Um although he was cleared as a suspect in some of
00:40:07
these cases, authorities in California and Washington, they believed that they had enough evidence and believed that
00:40:14
Duncan had committed unsolved murders in their jurisdictions. Now, the first one
00:40:19
that I want to talk about is a boy by the name of Anthony Martinez. Okay. Okay, so on April 4th, 1997,
00:40:27
10-year-old Anthony Martinez, he was playing with friends in his in the front yard of his home in Beaumont,
00:40:34
California. A man approached the group of kids asking them if they would help him find
00:40:40
his missing cat. The boys did not want to help this man. They were they were refused to help him. So, the man instead
00:40:48
grabs Martinez, and he puts a knife to his neck, and he he threw him into a white four-door sedan into the back of
00:40:56
his car. Well, on April 19th, this is just 15 days later, 1997, after searching for the boy for 2 weeks, his
00:41:07
body was found nude and partially decomposed in a California desert ravine and covered in rocks. Uh the
00:41:15
investigators said that he had been sexually assaulted and bound with duct tape. Now, this is one reason why
00:41:22
they're looking at him. Furthermore, they're looking at Joseph Duncan because a composite sketch was made of the
00:41:29
suspect at the time of the crime. Yeah, I think this was the one with the army hat, maybe? I'm army hat and the
00:41:37
mustache. Well, when this crime was committed, they had no leads, and and eventually this case
00:41:43
goes cold until after Joseph Duncan's arrest in 2005. Well, the thing here is, once they announce that he has an online
00:41:53
presence and that he had this blog, well, of course, websleuthers and everybody else that has
00:41:59
a computer that's interested in true crime, they're looking at they're following the story on CNN and Fox News,
00:42:05
and now they're following it on their computers as well. Well, several people noticed that
00:42:10
there's quite a bit of similarity between Joseph Duncan and the composite sketch in the Martinez case case.
00:42:19
So, the FBI, and now again with the help of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, they they get
00:42:26
involved in this case and they start working with the Riverside County authorities who are still active in the
00:42:32
investigation. Now, that blog was since you know, they took down the blog. Um yeah, well well what you want to go
00:42:42
into that just real quickly and we'll go back to Martinez? Yeah, yeah. Just cuz that cuz at some
00:42:47
point they take it down. Yes, it's I've read several newspaper articles and magazine articles, online
00:42:54
articles. Everyone I've come across says that the website has been taken down. However, I
00:42:59
don't know if this Remember I said earlier the guy went to the school for computer? Well, that's about my
00:43:05
understanding of everything as well. So, He went to school for computer. I found I found this website and I don't
00:43:12
know if it's an archive or if it's somebody retelling I don't fully understand what it is, but
00:43:19
you can find it out there. You really if I found it, that means you don't have to
00:43:23
look extremely hard. from what I was reading, it made it seem like they was taken down at some point,
00:43:28
then they put it back up. Then when they took it down again, somebody had saved all the information
00:43:34
and so then they relaunched it because it was really about them not wanting uh him to have any control over it or
00:43:42
access to it or or something like that because I think that they do get some computer time in
00:43:50
prison. So. Yeah, and the thing here is, Captain, he has when I say he, Joseph Duncan has a similar active blog
00:44:00
that has that and it's it's the same thing where it's like almost journal entries.
00:44:06
Right. Um and a lot of it's talking about his time in prison and and things he gets in
00:44:11
trouble for in prison and he talks smack about the wardens and about the judicial
00:44:16
system and things like that. Um, the way I understand it, this is an active blog and it has a similar name to
00:44:22
the fifth nail. It's something like the the fifth nail chronicles or the fifth chronicles, something like that.
00:44:30
It has a very similar name. Again, you can easily find it if you just look up his name. Uh, I will throw out there,
00:44:37
maybe don't waste your time cuz it's a lot of very boring, dry reading. Uh, I read through some of it. Like I said,
00:44:44
boring stuff. And plus you know this guy is a horrible monster. I don't want to spend any time with him.
00:44:50
And if the colonel says it's boring, you know it's boring. So, the the way that I understand the
00:44:55
that the current blog works is that he is not actually allowed to write any of it himself. Um, which which should be. I
00:45:04
applaud that. I don't think I'm all for freedom of speech, but I don't think that people serving time, life in
00:45:10
prison, on death row, that they should be just typing away their own newsletter. Now, that should be
00:45:16
especially people that have crimes against children. Exactly. So, the thing here is from my
00:45:22
understanding is there's somebody on the outside that operates this for him. Um, that he, you know, he he corresponds
00:45:31
with this person and from time to time this person posts things on that blog on his behalf.
00:45:37
Well, he got these weirdo rich friends. Could be. Could be. I I think it might be a woman. I'm not I'm not certain.
00:45:44
Anyway, sorry. We got kind of sidetracked there, but you you were right to bring that up because people
00:45:49
were probably questioning that. So, we have this unsolved case of Anthony Martinez, the 10-year-old, that
00:45:55
disappeared for 2 weeks and then later was found dead. And we have people coming forward
00:46:00
stating that there's similarities between Duncan and the composite drawing. Also, remember the little boy
00:46:06
was bound with duct tape. Duct tape. Yeah. So, authorities were able to after looking into this, they're able to match
00:46:14
Duncan's fingerprints to a partial thumb print that they found on the duct tape on Martinez's body.
00:46:22
Also, it was learned that Joseph Duncan had stolen his girlfriend at the time, he had stolen his girlfriend's car, and
00:46:30
that car was a white Chrysler Town Car, which matched the description of the abductor's car, as well.
00:46:36
Well, there you go. Yeah. During the sentencing, he would have he eventually go to trial for this.
00:46:43
For the the death of Ernesto Martin- I'm sorry. For the death of Anthony Martinez. But, during the sentencing
00:46:49
phase of the trial, Ernesto Martinez, this is the boy's father, he said, "14 years ago to this day, my
00:46:57
son's life was brutally taken by the hands of a monster. I am angry that instead of attending my
00:47:04
son's college graduation, I am spending a day at the sentencing for Tony's murderer.
00:47:11
As a father, I would love nothing more than to carry out this execution with my own two hands.
00:47:18
I know there will be no punishment greater than the special place God has in hell for Joseph Duncan to endure the
00:47:26
pain and suffering we've had to experience." Right. The Riverside County Superior Court
00:47:32
judge, this is David Downing, said, "I can say in 31 years involved in the criminal justice system, I have never
00:47:40
met a more evil person than Joseph Duncan." And he immediately had the prisoner removed uh from the courtroom.
00:47:47
Then, six deputies, they lead Duncan out of the courtroom, and during this time,
00:47:52
he glances off into the audience with a kind of a dumb smirk on his face as he's
00:47:58
as he's facing the audience there. Yeah, I'll post some of these pictures of him at trial and him like being
00:48:04
transferred from prison to to to trials. And and you'll see him he has a bunch of
00:48:11
different looks. But you know, there's definitely something something wrong with him. I mean, you
00:48:18
can just see it in his eyes. It's there there's something like just something missing about him.
00:48:25
Mhm. Now, there's some other crimes that they're concerned about as well. The federal
00:48:30
Oh, hold on hold on hold on. If I wasn't clear, I'll I'll post those on our Instagram at True Crime Garage.
00:48:36
The federal prosecutors also revealed that Joseph Duncan confessed to the murders of Sammy Jo White, 11 years old,
00:48:43
and her half-sister Carmen Cubias. This is she's 9 years old. The two girls vanished in July of 1996
00:48:52
after leaving the Crest Motel in Seattle. They lived with their mother at this motel and the family was very poor.
00:49:01
The kids would often make a little bit of money panhandling. The exact details of their disappearance
00:49:08
are not known. They're they're completely unknown. But their remains were not found until February of 1998.
00:49:16
So, less than 2 years later. Now, we said Joseph Duncan confessed to this crime to
00:49:23
these two murders, but it sounds like the authorities are in need of much more than than whatever Joseph Duncan told
00:49:31
them because he has not been charged with their murders yet. Okay, answer me this.
00:49:38
Go ahead. Okay, so think about the Brian Ferguson case from last week. Right. You have a story that doesn't make any
00:49:46
logical damn sense, right? Right. Has no information correctly, but we hand you all the information during the
00:49:53
interrogation. Now you got this piece of horse [ __ ] behind bars. And he's already been
00:50:01
We already know that he you know, killed four people. Right. And then we charged him with this the
00:50:08
killing of the boy. Anthony Martinez, yeah. Exactly. And now he's confessing to crimes.
00:50:16
And law enforcement's going to say, "We Well, we need more than that." Well, here here's the thing.
00:50:21
I I mean, you you see what I'm saying? No, no, no. That's That's my confusion. No, and I agree with I agree with you,
00:50:27
but I I think it we're talking about the playing field. It's not an even level playing field, right? We have all kinds
00:50:33
of different players in this system, and just like any line of work, some of them
00:50:39
are very good at their jobs, some of them are very bad at their jobs, some of them care and have basic human decency,
00:50:46
and some people don't care. And have no human decency. And I think what we're looking at here is I think people
00:50:53
involved in in and I know what you're saying. We we want to see justice for as many of these victims
00:50:59
that of Joseph Duncan as possible. Right. And how could we not get justice for these two little girls when somebody
00:51:06
like Ryan Ferguson ends up in in prison with no record for nothing and yeah, for and he's
00:51:12
totally innocent. I see what you're saying. I think what we're seeing though is I I think in this situation we have
00:51:19
we have prosecutors these are federal prosecutors. Um I think they they're doing a very good job. I think they know
00:51:27
the law and they're working within the the confines of that law. I think Joseph Duncan, as I said, is a manipulator. I
00:51:34
also think he's a liar. And I think it would be you probably can't believe anything this guy says.
00:51:42
The thing here is, Captain, I wouldn't be shocked if he in a roundabout way somewhat confessed. You know what I
00:51:50
mean? That he didn't fully come out Right. Right. My understanding of it is I don't have
00:51:55
the confession or what he said to them, but my understanding is that they he did
00:52:00
not give them enough. He did not give them enough details. He was he he didn't get certain things about the crime
00:52:07
right. Right. Um he basically said where he had abducted the girls from. He didn't
00:52:13
recall their names or at least said in that interview that he didn't remember their names.
00:52:18
Uh-huh. Um and I think a lot of evidence was lost because they weren't found until almost
00:52:25
2 years later. So, just just really a bad a bad situation. Now, regarding Duncan and and
00:52:32
the crimes, you know, he was convicted by three different courts. He has been convicted in Idaho for the kidnapping
00:52:39
and the murders uh regarding the Groene family and Mark McKenzie. In California,
00:52:44
he was convicted by a superior court uh for the kidnapping and murder of Anthony
00:52:49
Martinez. He has also been prosecuted at the federal level. Um so so some of these he actually pled guilty
00:52:58
to. Um but he wasn't able to cut a deal like what we see in most cases. He He cut a deal to get a life sentence, but
00:53:08
the way that this thing was set up was that they knew he was going to get tried at the federal level.
00:53:14
Right. And it was expected he would receive the death penalty for those crimes. So, the
00:53:19
way that they worked this thing was he pled guilty at the state level and was given life for some of the murders and
00:53:27
for some of the kidnapping charges and all of that stuff. But they delayed the sentencing process for those crimes and
00:53:33
those charges because if he were not to get the death penalty at the federal level, then he would receive the death
00:53:40
penalty in Idaho. Now, Joseph Duncan the Third is currently being held in a maximum
00:53:46
security federal prison. This is the United States Penitentiary in Terre Haute, Indiana. Now, this is where we
00:53:53
keep persons convicted of federal crimes. This is where we keep the worst of the worst. This is where Timothy
00:54:00
McVeigh was held and executed. Um now, I don't believe that we have a set execution date for Joseph Duncan. If
00:54:08
someone finds that, please post that at truecrimegarage.com in the blog because I looked and looked
00:54:14
and looked and could not find it. Right, but on record they haven't I don't think they've executed anybody
00:54:19
since 2003. Correct. And so, it's been a while and we need to get that going again. So,
00:54:25
now, like with somebody with Timothy McVeigh You need to get executions going again.
00:54:30
We need to get that that thing fired up again, yeah. The with Timothy McVeigh, he was executed extremely fast, right?
00:54:38
So, on on average, a federal death row inmate is usually executed after about 15 years. McVeigh's was only about four.
00:54:48
Joseph Duncan committed these terrible crimes in 2005. He wasn't convicted at the federal level until the second half
00:54:54
of 2008. So, if we get back on schedule and the math holds up, we should we would be looking at an execution date of
00:55:02
2023 or early 2024. Well, I hope you enjoy those uh death penalty arguments. I Look,
00:55:10
arguments. You and I have talked about this a little bit before um on several different shows. My views and opinions
00:55:17
on the death penalty are are complex. They're not very black and white. Um so, I don't care to get involved in it here
00:55:25
because it would take it would take us 10 shows for me to explain my opinion on it. But but what I mean is
00:55:31
Sounds interesting. Save save yourself the time typing the emails because I'm not You won't read them.
00:55:37
Well, because what I'm saying is with somebody as bad as Joseph Duncan he's not a person that I care to discuss
00:55:42
whether there should be a death penalty or not. Okay. This guy's horrible. He videotaped some of the crimes that he
00:55:48
committed against Dylan and Shasta. We know he did this. This it's definitive it was him. He's a horrible person. The
00:55:55
world is will never be a better place because he's here. So let's not get into that debate.
00:56:00
One of my concerns though is these rich friends. I mean these you know especially the the one that was married
00:56:05
with kids and saying oh release him to me. You know you're either having sexual relationships with
00:56:13
Joseph E. Duncan or you're part of this pedophilia ring. And you're right and that's what I was
00:56:19
trying to kind of foreshadow and kind of throw that idea out there without outwardly saying it. But yeah I think
00:56:26
that they were involved in some kind of relationship together probably a homosexual relationship.
00:56:32
So whether you're for the death penalty or against it fact of the matter is this
00:56:36
horrible monster is behind bars Mhm. and he will not have any more victims. And that's a that's a beautiful thing.
00:56:44
Another thing because you know it's funny how you know we've been doing the show for so long but so many of
00:56:51
these cases are connected. Right. can reference so many cases just like the Adam Walsh. I mean we talked about
00:56:58
these crimes being put on America's Most Wanted which would be with John Walsh. And the sex offender like
00:57:06
being registered sex offender basically started because of Adam Walsh. Mhm. So it's interesting to see how they're
00:57:13
all connected and how we're growing as a society on some level to try to prevent
00:57:18
these. Yeah and that's the thing you know you you when something like this happens you
00:57:23
know you can blame you can sit around and try to blame people if you want or you can say how do we grow and how do we
00:57:28
learn from this and is there any possible way that something this terrible, this depressing, that
00:57:33
something good could come of it. And one thing I want to, you know, I want to give Oprah Winfrey some props here.
00:57:39
Yeah, it seems strange, but Well, this is But some people will re- some people will remember this. In in late 2005,
00:57:47
this crime, you know, Joseph Duncan being out, being a registered sex offender that was he was being sought.
00:57:53
He was a fugitive from the law. He was facing these charges in Minnesota. Right.
00:57:58
So, if they could have found him before he committed these murders, we would have a whole we would have a whole
00:58:03
family of people that still with us. Right. And so, this crime inspired her to do
00:58:11
her and her show did a basically what I would call a child molester roundup. You
00:58:15
know, this featured different child sex offenders that were wanted by the FBI. It would feature those cases on her
00:58:22
show, and the show offered a substantial reward for information leading to the arrest of these individuals that were
00:58:31
featured on the show. There was at least two Yeah, there was at least two of these
00:58:35
guys that were on the FBI's most wanted list for sex offenders that were apprehended because of the Oprah show.
00:58:43
Um so, that that's one good thing that came of it. Um the other two is that they increased the um
00:58:51
the child victim recovery funds were increased in Idaho. So, at the time they would only issue they would allot I be-
00:58:59
believe it was $2,000 or $2,500 to a child victim for counseling and therapy uh because of all the trauma
00:59:07
they've experienced. The thing here is with Shasta's situation, she's very young. She
00:59:13
experienced something extremely horrific. They knew immediately that that that dollar amount would not even
00:59:23
provide the the smallest a bit of amount of counseling or treatment for her to try to correct and get things back on
00:59:31
path for her so that she could live a happy productive life. So, they increased that amount and I believe they
00:59:37
increased it to $25,000. So, that was definitely certainly a step in the right direction. And you know,
00:59:46
Captain, for me and you, we do a different crime every week and I thank everybody for tuning in and listening to
00:59:52
the different crimes that we present every week. you and I have to go out of our way and
00:59:57
look for the good, for the positive in these cases as we get bogged down week after week with with some depressing
01:00:04
heavy stuff. Uh but what's this week's recommended reading? Walking Prey: How America's Youth Are
01:00:11
Vulnerable to Sex Slavery by Holly Austin Smith. This is an important book with one-of-a-kind insight into this
01:00:18
subject matter because it was written by a victim. Not only was she a victim, but
01:00:23
more importantly, she's a fighter. Her book Walking Prey is truly an educational experience for both parents
01:00:30
and law enforcement. Holly has been on national TV, newspapers, and radio shows telling her story. She has also
01:00:37
consulted for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and the Amber Alert Program. So, pick up Holly's
01:00:44
book about a crime that is not well understood by most of us most of us. That is Walking Prey: How America's
01:00:51
Youth Are Vulnerable to Sex Slavery by Holly Austin Smith. can do that by going to our website truecrimegarage.com
01:00:58
and we have our recommended page and you can pick up anything from that page on our Amazon app.
01:01:03
Yeah, if you click through the banner and whatever you buy, they give us a kickback and they don't charge you
01:01:07
anything. It helps keeps the lights on, helps keep some beer in the fridge, and I think Nick had a couple too many beers
01:01:14
this episode. Yeah, well, I'll do what I want. I've I've done a lot of talking, so my tongue
01:01:18
is not working with the rest of the mouth at this point. Well, you did a fine job on the research
01:01:24
this week, my friend, like always. And really interesting stuff. And like you said, you can find on the on
01:01:32
the computer, you can find this blog if you kind of want to dive more into you know, the the fifth nail blog.
01:01:39
And next week, I'm very excited because we are going to feature a case that has been heavily requested as of recent. So,
01:01:46
we want you to know we are listening and we will be back here with you in the garage, my friends, next week.
01:01:52
Yeah, thank you, friends, for listening. And until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter.