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[Music] [Music] % welcome to Shaker Heights episode 4 Chinese Whispers 16-year-old Lisa puit was
00:01:42
stabbed to death behind a mansion in Shaker Heights Ohio on September 14th 1990 her murder remains
00:01:51
unsolved this is the story of how the police detectives in a small town were led to believe the weird kid in school
00:01:59
did it based on nothing but testimony from a group of teens who were friends with
00:02:06
Lisa's boyfriend Dan dford what you will hear are actors reading from actual police interviews
00:02:15
conducted during the course of their investigation no words have been changed and the interviews remain in
00:02:22
chronological order so that you can see how the case against Kevin young was constructed
00:02:31
[Music] this is detective Richard melany at the Shaker Heights Police Department
00:02:44
interviewing one Christopher in Jones Mr Jones can you continue your statement Dan was pretty angry about being a
00:02:52
suspect or the way they portrayed that pretty much from there many people came and left Dan's house that night
00:02:59
eventually me and Dan Messinger got a ride from Scott Fiero to the pu's house we talked to Mr puit we went up into
00:03:06
their house and spend a little time in Lisa's room then me and Dan Messinger were going to walk home we got a ride
00:03:13
about halfway to Dan's house from Randy Stokes we got back to danford's house and I spent the night there we then went
00:03:21
down to Dan's basement and talked there for a while Debbie dford came down and we discussed the possibility that Kevin
00:03:27
young might have done it it started from shanee and John who had heard about a month before that Kevin young wanted to
00:03:34
kill both Dan and Lisa because he had been with Lisa for 2 years and Dan had stolen her or taken her away from him
00:03:42
after a while we went back up to Dan's room we just talked until pretty late and went to bed then the next morning
00:03:49
Saturday September 15th 1990 Dan had to go to the police station and I got a ride home for Mrs dford to the best of
00:03:57
your knowledge who knew knew that Lisa was planning to come to Dan's house on Thursday night Dan dord myself Tex and
00:04:05
Kim Cole may have because she was over at Lisa's house that night so they may have talked about it how long have you
00:04:12
known Dan dford I've been friends with him since winter of 1989 could you briefly describe Dan
00:04:19
dford he's had a rough family life because of that he's been kind of extroverted in a sense he's pretty much
00:04:26
always joking around he's truly social if he feels something different he'll always put on show of being in a good
00:04:34
mood talking and stuff under that he's afraid to trust people he's intelligent and he has a sense of what he should do
00:04:43
Lisa was one of the only persons he really trusted he hasn't had that many people that he can trust he loved her
00:04:50
very much how long have you been friends with Lisa puit pretty much the same as Dan I had done some stuff with her
00:04:56
before but I became good friends with her that winter of 1989 how long have you known Tex I don't
00:05:03
really know him that well just pretty much know of him and probably no more than 6 or seven months could you briefly
00:05:10
describe Tex from what I know he's not really concerned with school more rebellious he's not really violent but
00:05:18
he's got a lot of anger at things seems like a really nice guy as a person how long have you known Kevin
00:05:25
young I know him through Dan dord and probably about 6 or seven months also could you briefly describe Kevin young
00:05:32
extremely touchy very powerful a sense of that a physical sense of strength very angry he likes to joke around about
00:05:41
things but you never really know if he's serious or not he's always on edge like
00:05:47
wired I really don't know him that well have you ever observed dramatic changes in Kevin Young's personality I haven't
00:05:56
but I've heard about these changes taking place he always seems like he's sort of about to burst out or go over
00:06:03
the edge or something he makes you feel uncomfortable to be around can you describe Kevin Young's relationship with
00:06:10
girls he takes things too seriously about them if they'll do anything like being nice to him or something he'll
00:06:17
take that as a fact that they like him more than they actually do with the girls he's around he's very
00:06:24
possessive about them he misc contrs and takes too personally what their actions
00:06:28
towards him are Annie Conrad and I were at a party she was one of the girls I felt he was in
00:06:35
love with because he knew her from band I was kind of going out with her at the time whenever she would come over
00:06:42
and talk to me or come and sit by me he would give me this really dark glances he was trying to get drunk and he was
00:06:50
acting really angry and hurt kind of he basically simmered down after I talked to him a little bit and he said to him
00:06:57
that she didn't want to be around a guy who gets violent when he drinks he just made me feel really uncomfortable
00:07:04
basically can you think of any other example of Kevin Young's Behavior with girls he asked Becca bwright to prom but
00:07:13
I can't really remember if she refused I believe she refused he began to hate her
00:07:18
for that and verbally disparaged her and he made a lot of rude comments about her
00:07:23
seemed angry he then asked Ellen Donald who was a freshman and he was a senior she told him that her parents wouldn't
00:07:31
let her go he seemed angry at her too about this but that's all I heard to the best of your knowledge have any of your
00:07:39
friends abused robotos and cough syrup yes several I tried it once and Andy Conrad Becca Boatright and Dan dford and
00:07:50
Tex and Debbie dford also could you describe what effects using robotussin had on you I took it along with alcohol
00:07:58
nobody else really did that I became extremely nauseous I couldn't see straight really I had distorted perception of
00:08:06
what things really seemed like it became extremely talkative kind of dizzy giddy
00:08:11
feeling but really nauseous that's the only time I ever tried it how does a young man with no ties to
00:08:20
the crime scene become the main suspect in a murder investigation it happens one flimsy
00:08:27
story at a time remember that game we used to play in school Chinese Whispers we called it the telephone game a rumor
00:08:37
starts and it's passed like a virus through words from one person to another until it changes into something new and
00:08:46
altogether dangerous listen for it in this interview with Jennifer Margolis a 16-year-old high school student who is
00:08:54
about to point the finger at Kevin young simply because she heard his name at the
00:09:00
right time when I first found out that Dan dford had come back I was in a youth ending hunger meeting after school Judy
00:09:10
Miller came into the room to tell me that Dan was back she was very excited once I realized who she was talking
00:09:16
about I was also very excited shortly after she came in Kim Rathbone came to the meeting and she was
00:09:24
very excited and emotional which is how Kim gets there was an element of surp surpris because we expected him to be in
00:09:31
there longer because he said he had fulfilled his requirements to be able to leave the program at the
00:09:36
clinic basically we were all surprised and excited that he was back I talked to Lisa puet that night it was before her
00:09:44
flute lesson she was rambling on about how wonderful her life was and how wonderful
00:09:50
that day was she was excited like the rest of us about Dan being back and especially because he was special to her
00:09:58
she had been down at about band camp and the beginning of the school year because
00:10:01
she couldn't do anything for him and she missed him a lot and she kept saying that the only thing bad about the day
00:10:09
was that she could not see him as much as she liked she saw him momentarily after
00:10:14
school and I asked her if she could go over later that evening and she said she had to go over to her flute lesson and
00:10:21
her mom was making a special dinner in honor of her getting her driver's license she said her father and she
00:10:28
might stop at Dan house after her flute lesson and her father only wanted to stop and say hi so they could get home
00:10:35
for her celebration when we were talking about what a good day it had been she was listing the things that had made it
00:10:42
that day primarily Dan being back and she got her driver's license I told her not to forget that I had given her a
00:10:49
necklace that day that she had ordered from my grandmother's jewelry store when we were discussing her going to dance
00:10:55
house after her flute lesson I mentioned can't you see him later that night because sometimes they met then because
00:11:03
with his family situation the way it was they didn't get a chance to see each other often she said yeah I was planning
00:11:10
on it I think then we just talked for a few more minutes about everything was great and then we both had to go that
00:11:17
was the last time I spoke with Lisa so I think that about wraps it up about my impressions of the day that Dan came
00:11:23
back I also needed to talk to you guys about Kevin young I found out that Kevin was a suspect or I heard the rumor that
00:11:31
he was a suspect on Saturday night right after Lisa was killed it was Judy who told me that because she heard it from
00:11:38
Becca Boatright that was at Dan's house on Saturday night the minute Judy told me I
00:11:44
got really upset for some reason it had never occurred to me before that he could be a suspect because I was running
00:11:52
through a list of people in my mind that I thought might be capable of doing something like this or knew she might
00:11:59
have been going over there and although I thought of everyone I had ever seen at
00:12:04
araba Kevin never came into my head but the minute Judy told me I believed it I mean not so much in my head but in some
00:12:13
non-thinking way I believed it because he was the only person that had ever entered my mind that I felt was capable
00:12:21
of doing something like that that really shook me up so I started thinking about
00:12:27
why I was so convinced that it was was he and the more I thought about it I remembered about three or four
00:12:33
conversations I had with him plus the general knowledge that he was pretty Disturbed Rachel lenthal and Ted folkman
00:12:41
and Aaron Miller and I had gone to see you Hunt for Red October at the colony theater I know it was a bridge night for
00:12:48
my parents afterwards we went to araba and Kevin was there and Eric and Anthony Garvin their brothers Kevin started
00:12:57
talking about gays and was making offensive comments and I always felt bad for him but I was never able to tolerate
00:13:04
it when he talked like that so Aon and I got up and went downstairs and when we came back
00:13:10
upstairs they were talking about Kevin's favorite topic of discussion which was how all women hated him and how he hated
00:13:18
all women and why he even tried to have relationships this was how he had talked
00:13:24
in the past but there was a specific time that I was reminded of as I listened to him talk that night which
00:13:31
was another night when I was up at Arab and he was telling me and I think Rachel
00:13:37
and I don't remember who about a girl he had liked in middle school I mean one of
00:13:43
those Arch typical perfect people whose parents were going out of town and she was inviting Kevin over to her house he
00:13:50
got the impression that there would be something of interest to him going on or just interest that she wanted to spend
00:13:57
time with him he said when he got there he was already a little bit drunk and she and her boyfriend and I think that
00:14:04
some friends of hers were also there I'm not sure about that had laughed at him and kicked him out they made him leave
00:14:13
he was upset about it and he went from this one situation to condemning all women he referred to women as [ __ ] and
00:14:20
[ __ ] and [ __ ] that was the way he talked I remember feeling bad for him that he would feel that way I think
00:14:28
except for that incident that's pretty much it that's what I was thinking the night we saw Hunt for Red October and
00:14:35
when I was listening to him I remember he was talking about Dan and Lisa specifically he was saying that he could
00:14:42
never get any women himself and I'm sure they were derogatory usually he said I hate [ __ ] I hate [ __ ] a lot of kids
00:14:52
talk that way it's an insecurity thing he was complaining how guys like Dan could get [ __ ] like like Lisa to suck
00:15:00
on [ __ ] and how Kevin didn't have anyone and raving on about how unfair it was the conversation changed to more
00:15:08
normal topics the next thing I remember that scared me was that same night but later on when we were sitting out on the
00:15:16
lawn in front of araba and Rachel and myself and this guy Chris who worked at Captain Tony's and Kevin and I think one
00:15:24
or two fight guys people who hang around school and don't attend classes and Kevin was talking about how he didn't
00:15:33
ever seem to have any successes with women at all he said to Rachel and I that if we ever got the chance he was
00:15:41
sure we would reject him and our friends would reject him he said that if he would go out with a girl he would call
00:15:48
her a week later and she would put him off and ignore him basically he said how he
00:15:55
didn't like to be ignored and said I won't let let people ignore me Rachel said how can you change how people feel
00:16:03
if they don't want to see you there isn't much you can do about it and he repeated that he wouldn't be ignored and
00:16:10
that people can make Impressions on people and it has been done and then Chris who is a serious pragmatist said
00:16:18
well a good impression or a bad impression Kevin said whatever works it was kind of chilling at the time and
00:16:26
worse when I remembered it in this context in the context of what happened Kristen
00:16:32
asked Kevin well are you talking like Hitler or something and Kevin said well it made an impression didn't it there
00:16:41
was a silence and we changed the subject I think the most recent time I talked to him was when Dan was at the
00:16:48
clinic and Rachel and Charlie Martin and I had stopped at araba and Kevin was there with Ken
00:16:55
mitsumoto the two of them came and sat down next to us and were talking about Dan Ken said to Rachel I haven't seen
00:17:02
you all summer Where Have You Been she had been to Interlocken and she was kidding and said
00:17:09
I was in rehab he believed her and she said she was kidding and then we talked about Dan and then Ken said well isn't
00:17:17
Dan in rehab neither Kevin nor Charlie said much about the situation of Dan being at the clinic then Rachel and I
00:17:25
set them straight where Dan was and why they talked about some ridiculous rumors
00:17:31
they heard and Ken talked about when he was in rehab then Kevin said well I'm sorry he's there meaning
00:17:39
Dan Kevin said I have some unfinished business to take care of I remember thinking that sounded ridiculous I think
00:17:47
I laughed at the time then he said with him and the [ __ ] and it was either the
00:17:53
[ __ ] or [ __ ] or [ __ ] in reference to Lisa Kevin continued and said I was going to [ __ ] with him real good but now
00:18:01
he's not around or something along those lines when Kevin said that I looked at Rachel and she looked at me and I said
00:18:09
you don't need to talk about our friends like that and he apologized and said sorry and continue to talk about Dan
00:18:16
when Kevin said what I said before then Rachel said it was nice to know your friends support you when you're in
00:18:23
trouble and she was trying to Guilt Trip him into shutting up as far as I remember that was all I wanted to talk
00:18:29
to you guys about when you refer to Lisa going over to Dan's house late late that
00:18:34
night did she usually go to Dan's house or did he come over to her house I know she had gone over there at least once
00:18:42
before because she talked to me about it but I think more often he went to her house late at night when I talked to Dan
00:18:49
last night he said whenever she came over I waited for her and it gave me the impression that she had gone over there
00:18:56
more than once have you ever known Lisa to use any drugs or alcohol drugs no when we were in Germany she got a little
00:19:05
bit tipsy and we all laughed about that because it was so uncharacteristic of her other than that no is there anything
00:19:13
else that you wish to add to your statement No the date is now September 22nd 1990
00:19:26
it is 1 week after Lisa's murder Kevin young the weird kid in school is the primary suspect they have consulted
00:19:34
with the FBI already about how to get Kevin to confess to the crime and only now do police detectives sit down for a
00:19:44
formal interview with Kim Rathbone the 16-year-old girl who lives behind Dan dford house she has been holding on to
00:19:54
some very important Clues though her memory is already a bit foggy are you a student yes where at
00:20:05
Shaker Heights High School what grade are you in 11th are you aware this statement is being recorded yeah and is
00:20:12
this being recorded with your permission yeah is your father aware that we are recording the statement at this time
00:20:20
yeah Kim could you basically explain how you know Lisa puit and also how you know
00:20:26
Dan dford and go back and give me a little bit of background information on how you know these people I met Lisa
00:20:35
once in fifth grade in the band and we both played the flute together and I didn't uh that's how I knew her in fifth
00:20:42
and sixth grade 7th grade I went to middle school with her and we were all part of the same group all kids that
00:20:49
hung around together in middle school and in high school but I grew closer to her from eighth grade on as friends like
00:20:56
closer friends I know I Know Dan dford in sixth grade he lives right behind me so we've always been people who if you
00:21:03
can't find anything else to do you just go over to their house so I knew him better than I knew Lisa he's one of my
00:21:10
very best friends and um oh I went out with him in sixth grade which is nothing it was like for a month or something and
00:21:18
we walked to school together and stuff like that is that all you want to know okay what contact did you have with
00:21:25
either Lisa puit or Dan dford on the date of Thursday September 13th 1990 to the best of your knowledge okay well
00:21:35
first I'll tell you about Dan first cuz he's not that was the first day that he came
00:21:42
back from the hospital and Lisa and I were sitting down together I was helping her with chemistry which is funny
00:21:48
because she's the smart one and um we were sitting down and he came around the corner like he'd been there the entire
00:21:56
time so um I saw him then got hugs and everything cuz I hadn't seen him for a while except for like on weekends when
00:22:03
we had to pass home and uh then after school I went over and I was cutting his hair cuz that was my special treat for
00:22:10
seeing him at home because he never let anybody cut his hair I got to do that and then my boyfriend asked to go to
00:22:17
Danny's house so he came and picked me up and said hi to Dan and then we left not till I saw Dan we were just talking
00:22:25
and uh uh Lisa I saw at school I had lunch with her and band with her and maybe now and then in the Halls when
00:22:32
everybody else saw her oh and shakerite with her that was 10th period and that's
00:22:37
when we we had both finished our articles so that's why we were seen in the Halls on our way home we were
00:22:44
anxious to get home and um then I saw her briefly after school and then I went home and then I went home and I saw
00:22:52
Danny and cut his hair that's all I'd seen except I had heard heard her scream that night not knowing that it was her
00:23:00
but I didn't know that she was coming over either there screams all the time around Lee Road in South Woodland and I
00:23:07
was doing my history and I I had put it off and when I heard the scream woke up and looked and walked through the house
00:23:15
and it happened toward the back of the house my little brother leaves his window open and our rooms are connected
00:23:20
we're through a bathroom and the bathroom doors were opened and his window was open and I hear her scream
00:23:26
and I went off and I looked in my window to see if there were any bicycles or cars or anything and there wasn't
00:23:32
anybody I thought it was weird but I still didn't do anything about it and I found out Friday at like 7:00 7 in the
00:23:40
morning yeah and we didn't even know it was Lisa it was like tapes and dogs and everything and we didn't even know it
00:23:46
was Lisa and stuff so my parents were all in front of the house my grandmother lives with us and my brother sleeps like
00:23:52
a bump on a log and he didn't notice anything and I guess my grandmother's windows were shut I don't know why she
00:23:57
didn't hear do you remember about what time that was you heard those screams around like 12:30 just a little
00:24:06
bit after 12:30 I was hoping that it wasn't her but but just from I heard from other people and everything putting
00:24:14
everything together it seems to be so I'm not even absolutely sure that it was her but it just seems like the normal
00:24:21
way how do you know about what time it was were you aware then what time it was or did you just kind of hear what time
00:24:29
it happened later and then no no I glanced at the clock when I heard it I don't know why because I was just like
00:24:36
working really hard and it was distracting me out of my work so I just glanced to see what time it was so you
00:24:42
were awake at the time yeah I I was up doing your homework studying my history do you remember what the clock exactly
00:24:49
what the clock said mm in other words between 12:30 and 12:45 because I went to bed at 1: but it hadn't it was then
00:25:00
so that I understand you correctly your bedroom faces segwick yes on what side of the house towards facing the house
00:25:10
towards South Woodland say if you're facing your house is your bedroom towards South Woodland or towards Shaker
00:25:17
Boulevard towards South Woodland my parents are towards Shaker Boulevard the last time you saw Lisa Pro it was on
00:25:23
Thursday at school is that correct and did you see her anytime after that mm- did you hear or mention or did she tell
00:25:33
you what her plans were for the evening no I didn't even know that she had been over at Dan's house before she had left
00:25:40
the house for the night I didn't even know that she had been over there for then I think I must have I I don't even
00:25:47
remember what I was doing that night ate dinner with my family that's about all I
00:25:52
remember sometimes you can hear from Dan's backyard you can all the time hear if our screen doors are open you can
00:25:59
hear what goes on in the houses themselves so I guess I just really wasn't concentrating on what was going
00:26:06
on over there describe for me as best you can what the scream sounded like like a scream like somebody was scared I
00:26:16
was just it didn't exactly sound like a play scream like when you hear people are driving by and stuff and that's why
00:26:23
I got alarmed and I looked and stuff but it still didn't actually occur to me that it might be somebody really getting
00:26:29
hurt cuz I don't know why it was somebody being scared did it sound like a male or female oh a
00:26:37
female definitely yeah did you hear was it a long scream or just like series of short
00:26:48
screams was it like continuous um it was uh it didn't last for hours you know it
00:26:55
it was a long one and then there was a long one and I don't know how you define which are short and which
00:27:02
is long but long did you hear the person that was screaming yell out any words or
00:27:08
any names or was it just a scream just a scream I didn't hear anything else what
00:27:15
time did you go over to the dford house on that day uh um it had to be after 4: because um you last until then it
00:27:25
wouldn't have been much after uh oh I remember why my friend came over we were studying for the history test in the
00:27:32
afternoon also I just switched from a higher to a lower class and she was making me take the test anyway uh it
00:27:40
must have been like 4:15 or 4:30 p.m. so about half an hour or 45 minutes or something so you went over there between
00:27:48
4:15 and 4:30 p.m. and you were over there for about 45 minutes yeah I guess so who else was
00:27:58
at dford at that time outside with us no one just you and Dan um yeah me and Dan
00:28:07
and babbit after my boyfriend had come he came over and said hi that's Brian keing yeah Brian keing did you see
00:28:15
anybody else at the dford house um I'm trying to remember whether his mom was home or not I don't really remember
00:28:23
whether anybody was home did you go in the house at all no we stayed out in his backyard in that porch area yeah and you
00:28:32
cut his hair then right yeah in general did you and Dan talk about that day oh well he had just gotten back he was
00:28:42
telling me about the people that he had seen and just for some reason I remember
00:28:47
Brian coming over and saying well how do you like Freedom now I guess oh oh I had
00:28:53
sent him a care package it was just MOS and stuff when he had ENT entered the hospital I gave it to his sister and his
00:28:59
mom to bring but I wanted some of it back because it was the only things that I had about him and he had stuff about
00:29:07
me so I still needed those things so he returned them back to me uh he gave me a
00:29:13
little stamp just as a joke then like a big surprise was cutting his hair and we
00:29:19
were talking about how short he wanted his hair and whether he wanted me to put it in a point in the back or not just
00:29:26
the way he wanted it and said that he trusted me and I could just do whatever I wanted to he had complete faith in me
00:29:33
and uh I guess that's just about it did he talk about his plans for the afternoon or evening no did he mention
00:29:40
anybody was coming over that night to visit him no if I had the chance then I was supposed to call him again but I had
00:29:48
to study for the history and then eat dinner and then I had other work to do so I didn't end up calling him so you
00:29:54
never talked to him the rest of the evening after that no okay and did you talk to Lisa puit at
00:30:01
all the rest of the evening either in person or on the phone [Music] no this show is sponsored by better help
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00:32:17
[Music] that I'm going to ask you about some people that are friends or of maybe you friends
00:32:33
of Lisa that are friends of Dan or maybe all mutual friends and tell me what you
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know about them do you know a fella named Ken Workman uh-uh they call him Tex oh yeah sorry about that how do you
00:32:48
know him he's Debbie's boyfriend Debbie who dford he's Dan's sister's boyfriend and I went to see Dan with him and her
00:32:57
and Andy once when he was in the hospital Andy who Conrad she's a girl and Becca Boatright and uh he was really
00:33:06
nice he didn't look like the kind of guy that would be really nice to somebody just being the first time that I had met
00:33:12
him and I just liked him a lot he was a really nice person and he seemed to care
00:33:17
about Debbie a lot did you see him that evening Tex yeah no I had just seen Dan do you know Chris Jones yes okay how do
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you know him from school yeah I can't even remember how long I've known him probably just since 9th grade but this
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year I have more classes with him and stuff I have study haul with him and lunch and English he's really nice he's
00:33:43
a sweetie he has these odd necklaces that he wears and always lets me wear it if I like it he's friends with um oh I
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forgot to tell you Tex I think had met Lisa a couple times but he didn't really know know her and then Chris knew Dan
00:33:59
real well and he knew Lisa real well too how about Dan mesinger I've known him since either seventh or ninth grade
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oh and uh in nth grade I hung around with him a lot and that kind of drifted off I guess he knew Lisa real well and
00:34:16
he knew Dan real well and him and Dan used to go over to Dan's house and they'd mess around with the camera and
00:34:21
stuff like that these odd pictures that they would take he was real good friends
00:34:25
with both of them he was really upset do you know anyone that might want to hurt
00:34:30
either Dan drier or Lisa puit that you are aware of that would actually do it or that I think might do it that might
00:34:38
you know saying somebody would actually do something is you don't know we we don't know yeah I have a hard time
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believing that anybody's capable of it but my guess is Kevin young Kevin young well he used to threaten him all the
00:34:52
time he used to say weird stuff like what he said he wanted to well he was in a mental or psych wart or something when
00:35:02
he was a sophomore and he said that he wanted generally he said he wanted to get back at the rest of the world for
00:35:08
putting him through what he had been put through and he was going to do something
00:35:12
to make everybody remember him and he said that he was going to get Lisa he said that how come Dan could get any
00:35:19
good girl he wants getting something girl that he wants to and to suck his dick but he can't get any
00:35:27
stuff like that he's scary but you never think that anybody's actually going to do something even though they talk have
00:35:34
you ever heard of any of these threats from Kevin young directly or do you just hear about them to me not to you but did
00:35:44
he ever make threats against Dan or Lisa in your presence um he well I sat next to him in
00:35:53
biology because he couldn't finish it his sophomore year when he was was in the institution whatever it's called he
00:35:59
must have said something like that every now and then not really often but do you
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remember any instance that he actually made threats in your presence I don't remember a day it was in biology he did
00:36:12
that one but you heard it and you were present do you remember what it was exactly or as close to it exact as you
00:36:21
can remember he was saying like well it was nearing senior project do you know what that is no explain it that's in the
00:36:30
high school when seniors uh I think it must be in May or something when seniors don't have to take their last set of
00:36:37
finals because they do like a project or working project or something okay I know
00:36:43
what you mean and they don't have to take the set of finals and he was just um it was nearing then because he was
00:36:50
only in their second semester with me and he said he was just so happy to be out of there and he just wanted to hurry
00:36:56
up and get out and he was going to make everybody remember him that's the one when he was angry at the world for
00:37:02
putting him through this but what I was talking about specifically did he threaten Dan dford or Lisa puit directly
00:37:10
in your presence no just the world just the world and this was in his senior year yeah that he was going to make
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everyone remember him what did that mean to you in your mind well it was kind of
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freaky to have something like that said to you but I guess I'm kind of weird because I just put those kinds of things
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out of my mind just Kevin's weird I'll stay away from him and that's it and I won't have to worry then Brian keing sat
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next to him in band all the time in like concert band and he said that he used to
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hear Kevin talking all the time but he never thought anything of it and that he'd actually act on it did you go on
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any of these band trips like to Germany like to Germany yeah was Kevin young there
00:37:57
yeah did anything happen on that trip out of the ordinary significant uh that's when Dan and Lisa
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were really kind of started like going out I guess was there any difficulty on the trip with any member of the band did
00:38:13
anyone get in trouble you mean with any relation to this or did anybody get in trouble in general no not anybody
00:38:21
anybody that's connected with this group of friends that we have discussed um no
00:38:27
I don't think so I remember this one girl but she's in the band and so she had some kind of relation to Lisa but I
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don't really know her did you see Kevin young at all the day of Thursday September 13th 1990 I haven't seen him
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for a long time I haven't seen him since school I guess now I'm going to ask you
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a question and the answer I don't care about who's involved in what but did you ever hear anything about any kind of
00:38:57
parties at dford involving robotussin drinking robotussin to get high do you mean did I ever hear of a party that we
00:39:06
did that or did I ever hear about them doing that period did you ever hear about them doing that period yeah
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okay what do you know about that I know it doesn't show up on your drug test it always comes up negative and you can
00:39:22
just tell them that you had a bad cold uh you want me to tell you who did it or how they did it or yes both
00:39:31
yes I don't really know how they did it I could never figure it out really I guess they drank a lot of it maybe they
00:39:38
like the taste were you ever present when anybody ever did this uh-uh I just I saw the bottles but I was never
00:39:47
present when they ever did it okay so how did you know just just by seeing the bottles that somebody didn't just have a
00:39:57
bad cold oh no no Dan had told me about it what did he tell you about it he told
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me that he got high off of those because that way he wouldn't ever really be using any real drugs and he could still
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feel good I guess and that was just uh I can't remember who the people he said he' done it with they were I remember
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when I was there Jamie Greenfield was there with me in the same room and I think Steve somebody I don't remember do
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you know who they are no they're friends of Dan's I don't think they ever met Lisa what are their names Jamie
00:40:34
Greenfield and Steve something they go to my youth group and that's how they know Dan it's through the Unitarian
00:40:41
youth group I just remember it was in his dining room that they like took off the bottoms and he showed them to me and
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I was just like what are those Dan showed you those yeah Dan pulled them out of like a paper bag full I mean not
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all the way up to the rim there was like seven bottles or something did he ever tell you what he felt like when he took
00:41:02
Robitussin he said the first time that he did it I'm trying to remember the words he used what he used to describe
00:41:10
being high did he mention other than being high any kind of unusual reaction or effect that it had on him well I
00:41:20
remember him talking about his friend was just totally like out of it talking about like going into a forest or
00:41:27
something like there are trees right there hallucinating or something do you remember who the friend was he talk to
00:41:35
no you have to talk to Dan about that he knows that but I don't ever remember him
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talking about I mean he never hallucinated like that I don't think he ever did it to the point where he was
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like that why are you asking me about the robot Us in anyway it's just something that's come up in other
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statements and conversations so we have to clarify that well Dan doesn't drink anymore because he was Ill
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with robotussin I don't even know how he heard of it I don't know how he did it either that's why I ask if you might
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have known anything about it all right I'm going to turn the tape over to the other side now to your knowledge would
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Dan dford have invited Kevin young over to his house for any reason lately yeah lately I don't think so cuz he and uh am
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I allowed to swear on this sure he had called Kevin an [ __ ] which he is I mean he's a jerk really so
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uh I remember him talking before like at the end of 10th grade who talked to him
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before Dan he just said that uh that's when Bill DeMarco was there and the three of us were sitting down and he
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said that you know you don't know who that is either Bill dearco no he's home this weekend from
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Bowling Green he just graduated last year here and I said damn I heard you'd been hanging out with Kevin why and he
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said that he had done one or two things with Kevin and decided that he was kind of a jerk and just Kevin kept hanging
00:43:06
around Kevin was kind of being pushy but Dan didn't want him around I remember that I hadn't even thought about Kevin
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since back in the 10th grade when was the last time you saw Kevin young that you can recall that I think I recall
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ever talking to him or just saw him last time you saw him in the 10th grade you haven't seen him since then uh-uh I
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didn't know if he went to college early or I didn't really care so that would have been in the
00:43:36
spring or early summer of 1990 this year right yes what do you know of Kevin Young's
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feelings towards Lisa puit if he had any feelings towards her um you mean out of
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his mouth I don't really know but recalling from other people's mouths and just every everything that I've heard
00:43:58
you mean since Lisa's death or before then and before but mostly since Lisa's death um that uh it seemed like he might
00:44:08
have been jealous of Lisa spending time with Dan not like him being jealous of Dan because he has Lisa it seemed like
00:44:16
it was the other way around just from what I've heard it sounded kind of weird okay so this is what you've heard from
00:44:24
other people yeah who has been talking to you about it Jennifer margal I've seen her around lately Lisa and me and
00:44:32
her had diet jokes going on which was we had a Scana sisters and I had just gotten grounded a lot in nth grade
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that's when it started and we just thought about a lot of weird names Jennifer was fatana Lisa was Chana and I
00:44:46
was aono and we were the Turk ofana sisters what sisters turana it's just a name we made up and
00:44:55
we had had I guess we had taped a whole bunch of commercials and put them all together and it was something like Oh
00:45:01
Henry bars and Sprite and something and then it was just like a simple thing uh just to make us laugh cuz we had sat
00:45:08
next to each other like in a Rowan band and uh once I was grounded they brought me a package of the pop and the 10 of
00:45:15
those Oh Henry bar thingies and gave them to me in a care package to make me feel better because I was grounded have
00:45:21
you ever heard or do you know of Lisa puit sneaking out of her house and going to Dan's house prior to the
00:45:28
incident or Dan sneaking out of his house and going to Lisa's have you ever heard of that have I heard it from them
00:45:36
yes from Dan or Lisa no have you heard of it from anyone else before the incident yeah but it wasn't even a big
00:45:44
deal it should have been but it wasn't what did you hear that Dan used to go all the time like to Lisa's house I
00:45:52
don't think that I had ever heard of Lisa going to Dan's house but he used to go to her house and they'd sit down in
00:45:58
his basement and bring his guitar and they'd play and sing songs but that's all I heard I just kind of disregarded
00:46:04
it you never heard of Lisa coming to his house no and he never talked about it to
00:46:10
you not really well he was gone for a month I had been working I had driver's at in the morning on weekdays and I
00:46:17
worked in the afternoon so there wasn't really a lot of time for me to see him in the beginning of Summer and then I
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had called him to see if he wanted to go out to a movie with me or something and
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that's when I found out he was in the institution so then every chance I got I talked to Debbie and his mom to see how
00:46:34
he was doing things like that what were you aware of if anything or did Dan mention anything to you about the
00:46:42
relationship between Mr and Mrs dford and Dan how did they get along well Dan and his father have always had this
00:46:51
thing going I mean it's a lot it's a lot less worse now I mean I haven't H because I told you when the screen doors
00:47:00
are open you can hear everything you could hear Dan's father screaming at him for whatever reason just clean your room
00:47:08
and shave and why don't you help me with this and stuff like that I always heard
00:47:12
stories about what had happened when they were younger like what like what well they're kind of far-fetched I never
00:47:22
knew whether to believe them or not um but I had heard that his father had gone violent with Dan and Deborah and I think
00:47:30
his mom I'm not sure and that's why Dan's started lifting weights in like the sixth grade um he wanted to stand up
00:47:37
to his father and uh I had heard it once and this sounds really far-fetched but I
00:47:44
remember it and I don't remember whether I heard it from Debbie or Dan but when Dan was little he had to use the
00:47:50
bathroom and his father said no hold it as long as you could and then he couldn't hold it any longer so he ended
00:47:56
up wetting his pants and his father got mad because he wet his pants and like pushed his head into the toilet or
00:48:03
something it sounded very far-fetched and I had always known Mr drfort as long as I've known Dan and I've always known
00:48:09
him to yell but I had known him to use violence is there anything that you know or anything that you feel that could
00:48:18
perhaps help us in any way in this investigation you mean is there anything other that I could tell you some tip or
00:48:26
something anything that you've heard or anything that you might have thought about telling the police or thought
00:48:33
about calling us and letting us know something that you heard something that you feel that maybe no one else has
00:48:40
thought about like maybe a threat or maybe some reason that somebody would want to kill Lisa puit all I know is
00:48:48
what I've heard some of the rumors about who has texts and stuff like that and I
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really don't believe that Dan or St or Tex either or any of the three of them are actually capable of they they
00:49:02
wouldn't have done it because first of all they wouldn't have done it to Dan Stan or t wouldn't have done it to Dan
00:49:09
Tex wouldn't have done that to Debbie and they had no reason in the world to hurt Lisa anyways they barely knew her I
00:49:16
really strongly don't believe that they did it that's just all that I've really thought about to tell you just who
00:49:22
didn't do it I don't know who did it who is Stan who are you talking about I heard that Stan was somebody Stan's just
00:49:31
a friend of mine no you know Stan yeah you know his last name no it's funny I've known him since the ninth grade but
00:49:41
I don't even know his last name but I can recognize him from a mile away can you describe him for me he is big Well
00:49:49
everybody's big to me but he's big and he has long hair probably down to his well well it's shorter than his
00:49:56
shoulders now he looks awkward he smokes I'm trying to remember whether he had an earring or not I don't think so
00:50:04
well maybe he does I don't know about that one don't no just just disregard that does he go to the high
00:50:11
school well he was kind of he did last year and then he ended up dropping out and then this year he was enrolled again
00:50:20
and he was caught smoking on school grounds and he was suspended then he was caught on school grounds when he was
00:50:25
suspended so now he's supposed to pay something or serve something in jail or I don't know I don't remember what the
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outcome is but he's supposed to go to school the night that you heard the screams well it was actually the morning
00:50:39
of September 14th 1990 did you hear just before or just after that did you hear any other type of noise that might have
00:50:48
caught your attention no that's why I thought it was so freaky cuz I heard the scream and just looked and I couldn't
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see anything else so I just said said oh it must have been somebody in their car
00:50:57
or something you didn't hear any kind of maybe a car pulling away or screeching tires or not even the police when they
00:51:05
came in in the middle of the night you went to bed about 1:00 a.m. mhm just about exactly when the police were all
00:51:13
around looking around you didn't get up at all I didn't hear it at all I was so tired from staying up so late
00:51:21
studying and the screams that you said you heard seem to be coming from behind your house yeah because my windows in my
00:51:29
room are closed and so was the uh I have two closets and the door to the hall two
00:51:35
windows and the door to the bathroom the only one that was open was the door to the bathroom so I figured it came from
00:51:41
any other direction it would have sounded more muffled did you know Lisa to keep any type of diary or anything
00:51:47
like that I knew that she always shared her thoughts with her friends I knew that she had little poems and stuff that
00:51:53
she liked that she would share not worth sharing it with some of them worth sharing it with certain people
00:52:00
though who else besides yourself would you consider to be her best friends I don't think I'm her best friend just
00:52:08
Jennifer was really close to her and Rachel lenthal was very close to her and Kim Cole grew close to her in the summer
00:52:16
Dan was really close to her and Judy Miller was close to her I guess I'm kind of on the outskirts of people that were
00:52:22
close to her who would you say would be Dan best friends Dan's best friends well
00:52:29
Lisa he was very special to me I don't know whether he would call me a best friend we spent a lot of time together
00:52:37
used to share a lot of hidden thoughts uh I don't know if he would actually call me one I would like to
00:52:43
think that I was one um he uh I I don't know who he would call his best friends now all of the people that I just named
00:52:52
were close to Dan also I know there was one guy guy that he met in the institution with him but I don't know if
00:52:58
he would call him his best friend do you know his name oh he was just talking um
00:53:04
I was just over at Dan's house yesterday and he was talking to him on the phone Mike Pagel maybe that's the closest I
00:53:12
can call him I think that's it his first name is Mike yeah I answered the phone I
00:53:18
said this is the dry Fort residence and he said is Dan there this is Mike so I'm
00:53:23
really not sure on the last name I know Bill Marco spends a lot of time with them before they left they used to call
00:53:29
each other over the summer do you know a kid named David brandan uh-huh he used to babysit for me he lives a couple
00:53:37
houses down he's really nice did you see him at all on Thursday no I didn't even
00:53:42
know he was home I just saw him last night at araba I was with my parents and I just said oh wait a minute that's
00:53:48
David and I went over and I said hi the last time I saw him was I I think I was right when school was ending thing and
00:53:56
uh he saw me in the hall and caught me and took me to araba and we were talking and he told me about this girl he met
00:54:02
and D do you know what the girl's name was Megan I think he's rooming with her now or he's going to be rooming with her
00:54:10
soon I don't think he's going back to school this year but he's working down at the in the flats at the araba he's
00:54:18
working at Raba yeah I I forgot where he's working in the flats though he told me but I can't remember is there
00:54:25
anything else you wish to add to your statement that would help you really I don't think
00:54:32
[Music] so and here we come to the moment the detectives make their move it happened
00:54:50
on September 26th 1990 12 Days After Lisa Pit's homicide six police officers from Shaker Heights drive down to Ohio
00:55:01
State University and an attempt to get Kevin young to confess to the crime they have been briefed by FBI agents on how
00:55:10
best to do this the profilers told them their best chance would be to surprise Kevin and talk to him at
00:55:24
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