00:00:05
[Applause] [Music] [Applause] Oh, you can feel the excitement in the room. Way to be excited.
00:00:33
No, I was thinking I was bored on Saturday. Mhm. Saturday night. Um I had an exciting Saturday day which
00:00:43
led into a boring Saturday night. I like the old um saying uh if you're bored then you're boring. Mhm. So I always
00:00:52
penal I try to penalize myself when I'm bored. It's it's my fault I'm boring. Start yelling at yourself. smacked
00:00:58
yourself in the face. But I was like, I want to watch, you know, I'm super stoked as you are, as everybody else is
00:01:05
for Mind Hunter season 2. It feels like it's been 5 years in the making. Yeah. And I know it's coming out this month.
00:01:13
We're in August now, and it's coming out. Do we know that for sure, though? on on my Netflix. I don't know about
00:01:20
anybody else's, but on my Netflix, when I when I go over to uh and click on Minehunter, it it immediately says new
00:01:31
season starts and I think it says August 16th. I'm going off of memory here because I I think it's a Friday.
00:01:38
Yes. Yeah. And I was like I I even said I'm I was alone in my family room and I even said it out loud cuz I knew it was
00:01:45
starting in August but I was like very hopeful that that and I was sitting there going I have nothing to do
00:01:53
tonight. Why is it not starting tonight? Cuz I would have burnt through that thing pretty good. I could have I could
00:02:00
have gave a good uh I watched instead I watched the breakup and I watched Bill and Ted's excellent
00:02:07
adventure. I started the breakup uh last week just like randomly like had nothing
00:02:13
to do put it on just to be in the background. Have you seen it before? Yes. The first half is super funny I
00:02:20
think. Any just like Vince Vaughn's character Gary he's you know he's a talker right? But I I I remember like
00:02:28
the first time I watched it thinking, "Oh, this is really funny." And then the second time I was watching it, just like
00:02:34
I said, in the background, I kept on thinking, "Man, Gary is a dick." He is. Yeah. He's such a dick. But that's what
00:02:42
makes him funny. Like if if if you're willing to roll along with that character, you know, much like like uh
00:02:48
Danny McBride's character in Eastbounded Down, Kenny Powers, if you're willing to
00:02:54
accept that that the guy at his core is an [ __ ] that really only cares about what he
00:03:01
wants, then then you can you can roll with it and find him to be very funny, I think. Right. Yeah. I remember thinking
00:03:10
that when I watched it before, like they're both at fault here. And then the second time thinking, "Wow, this guy is
00:03:17
really a dick. Maybe just get maybe get that 10 piece, you know, get get the 10 lemons for the 10 piece lemon
00:03:27
centerpiece." 12. Was it 12 or whatever it was? Baby wants 12 lemons. 12. But I think my favorite part though, one of my
00:03:35
favorite parts anyway, is when they're at the at the opening scene where they're at Wrigley Field and Vince
00:03:42
Vaughn orders six hot dogs and he's with the purpose of giving one to Jennifer Aniston who he's going to try to hit on.
00:03:50
Yeah. Yeah. He's wooing. Yeah. And uh and he's he's eating the hot dog and he's like, I'm just going to sit here
00:03:56
and enjoy my hot dog. And the guy sitting next to him, he doesn't know him. The guy sitting next to him like
00:04:00
gives him a weird look and he Van looks at him and goes, "What? You have a problem with me eating a hot dog guy?"
00:04:06
And his buddy his buddy John Far. Why can I never know that guy's last name? John Farrell. Yeah, something like that.
00:04:15
The the chef. Uh he's like the director of like Iron Man. Super successful famous guy. Anyway, John's character, he
00:04:24
goes, "I'll slap him right in his head. I'll smack him right in his head. Well, we're just talking about this, too, cuz
00:04:32
Crime Con posted a video of this guy tossing trash out his car window, and uh this guy is cleaning it up, and
00:04:40
eventually a bigger guy comes over and takes the the pile of trash and tosses it back in the dude's car. Dude tries to
00:04:47
get out. The dude kicks the door a couple times. If you want to see that, that's on our on our Twitter profile.
00:04:53
But um yeah, being that guy that just is not afraid to say, "Hey, what are you doing?" Right? Stop doing that. Stop
00:05:02
being an [ __ ] You have a problem with me eating a hot dog guy? So, no baseball games this
00:05:09
weekend. I went on Thursday. The Clippers are terrible. Uh they've they've dropped a whole bunch since the
00:05:17
All-Star break. They were number one in minor league and then the All-Star break
00:05:21
happened and they they might as well have just lost every game since then. They've they've won very few games.
00:05:28
Yeah. Or maybe they'll turn it back around. Yeah. But yeah, so uh Saturday it's only I'm always on YouTube
00:05:38
and and it always suggests things to me. That's where I get down these weird rabbit holes. And I I think it might
00:05:46
have been because I was looking up some stuff. There's some controversy over um I think it's called Once Once Upon a
00:05:55
Time in Hollywood, which is the new Brad Pitt. Mhm. Um Leonardo DiCaprio movie and it's
00:06:04
loosely connected to Sharon Tate. And but what I love about it is I have not seen the movie
00:06:12
yet. So, but I've seen enough and watched enough interviews to know that that's in the story of these guys, but
00:06:23
it's not what the movie is about. And the article that I was reading or there were somebody was talking trash about
00:06:32
the article was article was basically saying you know you know they didn't really talk
00:06:40
much about the story and they and and they could have focused more on on Sharon Tate and what happened the Tate
00:06:53
Labiano murders. Yeah. the Charles Manson murders. And my my issue with it though,
00:07:01
uh, and what this guy was saying too was that's not what the movie was about, right? So, you're you're trying your
00:07:08
argument is the movie should have been more about that. Well, you don't go watch like a movie like B uh Bull Durham
00:07:16
and go, why don't they talk more about football? or you don't go watch Varsity Blues and say, you know, they didn't
00:07:23
really talk about the World Series at all. It makes no sense. It's like the dumbest argument I I've seen. Oh, yeah.
00:07:31
I went I went to see this movie Titanic and they But they never once talked about submarines.
00:07:37
Yeah, cuz that's not what The breakup could have focused more on the Cubs game, right? And hot dogs and Bill and
00:07:44
Ted's excellent adventure could have Why didn't they dive more into the story of
00:07:48
Jon of Arc? I mean, that's a brilliant story. Yeah, but it's because they're white males. But, uh, yeah, I didn't see
00:07:55
the criticism, but it sounds sounds silly. It's just Yeah, I mean, I understand. Why didn't they focus more
00:08:02
on this? Why don't you go write a movie, right? You're allowed to focus on whatever you want to focus on. Got a
00:08:08
problem with me writing a movie, guy? Yeah, it'd be like somebody saying, "Hey, I I listened to your latest
00:08:14
episode on the Deli murders. interesting stuff, but why isn't why isn't the episodes more about John Benet
00:08:22
Ramsay? It's just kind of a dumb argument and I understand that there, you know, there's um, you know,
00:08:29
there I think it's more by putting this and again, I haven't seen the movie yet,
00:08:34
but I think more it's about putting a time stamp on things. A lot of people when you talk to people
00:08:42
that lived in California or even people that followed a lot of true crime that was kind of
00:08:49
a and not even just true crime but I I was watching this some stuff on on Woodstock and sometimes when you're
00:08:57
watching these music documentaries and they talk about what was happening in California and what's what was happening
00:09:03
in New York that the Manson murders were a timestamp and they felt like everything kind it changed once that
00:09:11
happened. So, I think that's probably why the director said, "Hey, let's use this um as kind of an interesting
00:09:18
backdrop to what what is happening." So, anyways, I I need to watch that movie, but I think it's like 2 hours and 40
00:09:26
minutes long. Like that's a that's a whopper of a movie. But yeah, so Saturday I see the
00:09:35
clip trailer for Mine Hunter season 2. If you haven't seen season 1, use a dummy and you need to get on
00:09:46
it. But and then I sent you the clip. Mhm. And normally I don't get normally I don't get replies when I send you these
00:09:55
clips, but uh but yeah, I think you're pretty stoked about it. So, we're going to just play the audio of the clip. And
00:10:03
it's only a minute long, but there's a lot of what do they call those? Easter eggs in the trailer. So, we'll kind of
00:10:11
talk about those. So, let's play the trailer now. Have you got somebody holding someone you can't catch?
00:10:21
[Music] Darkness I feel you right by my side. I'm inside. This person you're after, he has an
00:10:41
overwhelming fantasy life. Fantasies of what he's done, what he wants to do. [Music]
00:10:55
These dreams will consume him. Soon the real world won't even compare. [Music] How do we catch a fantasy? If he's any
00:11:06
good, you can't. [Music] So, obviously the audio does not do that justice. No, we just you and I just
00:11:21
watched it uh a little bit ago and it was awesome to to listen to and then we play it there and it didn't sound so
00:11:30
great on my headphones and then I'm like and then on top of that I'm like that singer is not very good either. I
00:11:36
thought it was okay. I don't think it's a I don't think it's a bad choice for music. No, I think it's a good choice. I
00:11:43
just I I didn't realize it when we watched the clip, but how bad the singer was, right? listening to it, I'm like, I
00:11:48
I don't think she's hitting the notes there. So, there's a couple things happening. The first the scene that you
00:11:54
see is Ed Keer talking to talking to Holden and he's basically saying, "Hey, is there a guy that you can't
00:12:04
catch and that kind of sets the whole scene for season two?" Mhm. Well, that's what that to
00:12:14
me. Okay. So, so we know some things that are going to happen in season two. Well, things because of season 1, we can
00:12:21
assume, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to stray away from that, right? But I mean I'm more so from
00:12:28
the clip that we just watched, we know that there are some things that are going to happen too. Not not just but we
00:12:34
also anybody that has read the book Mind Hunter or followed John Douglas's career, you you know about where the
00:12:44
story has to go. I mean it's this the story is his story, his life, right? So, we know some things that are going to
00:12:51
happen, but for me, that that little conversation right there with Ed Keer is that is going to be the the entree, man.
00:13:00
That's going to be the big meat and potatoes. Yeah, that's going to be the big deal for me cuz I didn't anticipate
00:13:05
that. And what what's interesting about that is it appears that they may be having some kind of conversation where
00:13:11
before Holden and Bill Tench. Bill Yeah. So Holden and Bill are trying to learn about these individuals that they are
00:13:22
interviewing. Yeah. In this conversation, it sounds like they are telling him about somebody that they're
00:13:28
trying to catch, somebody they're trying to apprehend and wanting to get insights from Ed Keer
00:13:35
about who they may be looking for and how to catch him. So now we have a very we have a very
00:13:42
um Jack Crawford Hannibal Lecter type situation going on. Yeah. Meat and potatoes.
00:13:50
Now what's interesting though is is so we kind of know from before and some of the little scenes. And one of the things
00:13:58
I thought was so brilliant about Mine Hunter season 1 was every episode they would have these little clips maybe a
00:14:06
minute long, maybe 30 seconds long of this individual and you just kind of didn't know what his deal was. But but
00:14:14
they'd always tell you where he was from and it was Kansas City. So you do a little bit of the research even if you
00:14:20
haven't read the book, you would go, "Okay, this is the BTK killer." Yeah. Kansas City, Park City. Yeah. You It's
00:14:28
always Kansas. Yeah. So, knowing that, knowing that he was never really in season one other than these little
00:14:37
clips, which I just thought was art artistically I just thought was brilliant. And then then you see this
00:14:43
scene where there's this rope that is tied to something that is tied to a door handle and the door is shaking a little
00:14:52
bit and it is freaky. Mhm. And then there's another scene where you see an individual that is wearing the now
00:15:00
infamous um BTK mask. Mhm. And and he had multiple masks, but there was one that that probably is the scariest one.
00:15:09
The one that looks more like human uh flesh tone like as far as cuz some of his mask would be like bright, you know,
00:15:19
bright white with, you know, kind of clown makeup almost. Mhm. This one was more like, you know, skin tone with
00:15:28
lipstick. And you see a clip of somebody wearing that mask. A lot of those masks,
00:15:33
from my understanding, were always that skin tone, that flesh color, but he would he would apply makeup to the mask
00:15:43
at different in different ways. And he would some of that was he would try to apply makeup to the mask to mimic one of
00:15:53
his victims. Yeah. And the way that the victim would wear their makeup or makeup
00:15:58
that he may have stole from their their house or their purse or something like that. But uh and one of the victims was
00:16:04
found with a with a mask on. And it's believed, I don't know if it's if I should say if it's believed or if we
00:16:11
know according to Dennis Rder's words, he he did return to the body because it wasn't discovered. He this
00:16:21
was one of the rare ones that he placed out in the uh wilderness somewhere out in the woods. And so he returned to the
00:16:29
body to photograph the body. And I don't remember if he when he placed her there
00:16:35
if he if the mask was already on her or if when he returned he applied the mask to the body and then took the
00:16:42
photographs. But yeah, so that that scene that you're seeing there is something we heard directly from John
00:16:49
Douglas when when I spoke with him on the phone when he was saying, "Hey, you know, Dennis Rder told me that he was
00:16:56
almost caught a couple times." And the times that he was almost caught was because his wife walked in on him when
00:17:03
he was, you know, playing dress up and Yeah. uh you know tying himself up and something like that and and his wife
00:17:11
caught him I think twice according to John Douglas. So what we're seeing there is what Raider was saying was you know I
00:17:20
wasn't almost caught by police. I was almost caught by to the point of my wife either leaving me and I'm certain some
00:17:28
paranoia of well my wife might figure out who I am. You know, BTK was certainly a big deal in that area for a
00:17:37
long time. A and he he was able to live undetected underneath the same roof as this lady. And you know, I was actually
00:17:47
talking with somebody on our blog last week about Deli and we were talking about the um trading back some thoughts
00:17:56
on the audio clip that they have, you know, of of the killer saying guys down the hill. And one thing that I brought
00:18:06
up, and I don't think that I brought this up when we were talking about it, but sometimes when I listen to
00:18:11
it, that clip of the deli killer, sometimes when I listen to it, when they don't when they don't tell me at the
00:18:19
bottom of the screen what he's saying, guys, down the hill, and I'm allowed to use my own
00:18:26
imagination or use just my ears to determine what I think that I'm hearing. Sometimes I think I hear guys get down
00:18:33
the hill. Guys get down the hill. And I brought this up on our blog with in talking with several people for for just
00:18:43
the simple fact that we know Dennis Rder was recorded when he called to report one of his crimes, one of his murders.
00:18:51
He was recorded when he called the operator and they played that audio clip. I mean, how weird, right? these
00:18:58
these cases and investigations, a lot of them have have some similarities. Yeah.
00:19:04
Mimic each other. Yeah. And so they played his the the audio clip of him talking to the the operator on like the
00:19:13
the night nightly news that night and he and his wife were sitting there in the family room watching the news together.
00:19:21
She hears the audio and she says to Dennis, "Hey, you know, you sound a lot like the BTK killer." And Dennis in just
00:19:31
in the heat of the moment, probably on the inside, he's he's going crazy, right? Sweating bullets. But on the
00:19:38
outside, he's like he he shrugs it off. He's like, "Ha, you're not the first person to tell me that or or you're not
00:19:43
the only one that has told me that." He says something very just in the moment and his wife didn't think twice about
00:19:50
it. And that's one thing that and then he said, "Can you go make me some meat and potatoes?" But then that that makes
00:19:56
you think about Deli and the bridge guy and has the people closest to him heard.
00:20:03
Well, question for you because I I don't um know offhand and you probably know being the true crime expert.
00:20:13
Um Dennis Raider, how long did it take for them to catch him? several decades. Three decades. Yeah, let's say a little
00:20:24
more than three decades. So, he started killing what was that 7374. Just pardon me, I'm going off in
00:20:32
memory here. But one thing that's interesting about BTK and the FBI and John Douglas and uh Robert K wrestler
00:20:40
who who Bill Tet tench t what his last name is. I don't know what that character's name is, but he's supposed
00:20:48
to be Robert K. Wrestler. Okay. So, uh, wrestler and Douglas did have some loose involvement
00:20:57
with BTK back in the day, but but it was very, it's weird that it's mixed up in this whole Mine Hunter story
00:21:08
because because you're saying they're not the guys that hunted hunted him down. Yeah, they weren't really actively
00:21:15
searching for BTK. That was more on the local level, more on the state level, not so much on the federal level. And it
00:21:23
wasn't because that they didn't want the the uh behavioral science unit involved.
00:21:30
And it's actually called something different in real life, but that's what the general public thinks that it's
00:21:34
called. Uh the it's not that they didn't want them involved. They certainly sought out their expertise and wanted
00:21:40
their opinions on some things. But it was more so that there were they were so actively working these other
00:21:48
cases. Yeah. And there was also the problem with BTK too was there was times when he was not actively killing people.
00:21:58
And so they were that confused law enforcement and confused the FBI to the point where they thought, "Oh, he went
00:22:04
away. He moved. He died. He's in prison for something else." So unfortunately when you have other
00:22:11
cases it also makes it seem like that's not a priority. You know I hate to say it that way but that's the truth. Um so
00:22:21
they weren't super active. They did give a lot of of thoughts and opinions on BTK
00:22:27
and we went through a lot of that information when we covered BTK in what three episodes. Yeah.
00:22:34
And one of the the most interesting things about BTK was the relationship with the FBI and the on the state level
00:22:44
when they would analyze his writings and the things that he would send to newspapers and what what information
00:22:53
they tried to gain and gather about this killer from the stuff that he was providing to them. Right now, what you
00:23:01
can see in the clip for Mine Hunter season 2 is okay. So, they've returned to talk to Ed Keer. We know from talking
00:23:10
to John Douglas ourselves that he he said that Keer was one of the more fascinating, more interesting killers
00:23:16
that he spoke to. One, because Keer liked to talk so much and Keer was extremely smart. So he could articulate
00:23:24
things in a way that other killers could not to the to him and to Robert Kay wrestler. Well, and also I think you
00:23:32
know you have you know artistic license to kind of shift the series however you want. Doesn't have to necessarily go
00:23:38
with the books and and that's where I'd kind of be interested to know from the writer standpoint. Uh you know what was
00:23:47
Ed's involvement like going to be? Was that predetermined before season 1? Was season two even wrote yet? You know,
00:23:58
um because if I'm writing season two and we're not writing till after season 1, Ed's character is so great that you
00:24:10
almost want to How can we write him in? Yeah. He's the star of season one. Yeah.
00:24:16
And so I I so that I would be interested just on a creative level. Is is this was
00:24:21
this planned uh in advanced or or did we know uh that Ed was going to be coming back? And and maybe Ed's going to be a
00:24:29
guy that kind of, you know, kind of like Holden and Bill kind of continues throughout the
00:24:35
season or throughout the series, you know, as they develop more u seasons on this. So, the other couple things that
00:24:44
we see that are interesting, uh, speaking of Sharon Tate was that you see a, um, a frame that looks like Charles
00:24:55
Manson. Mhm. So, there's We're going to see something about him in this one, I would assume.
00:25:02
Yeah, they they interviewed Charles Manson. Um, I think the dude that's playing Manson actually played Manson in
00:25:12
something else as well, right? So, I think like I mean he looks a lot like pictures that we see of Manson from that
00:25:19
time period. Can you imagine though? I mean, you know, poor guy gets casted in a thing and you're probably h happy to
00:25:28
have the work, but it's like it's cuz I look a lot like him. And then you get cast in another thing. Hey, who's the
00:25:35
guy that played Charles in the other thing? Let's just get him. I I think though the way that I read the read this
00:25:42
was it was like a um it was kind of an attab boy like you did such a good job the first time that now now you're
00:25:50
you're that guy and and yeah, nobody wants to look like Charles Manson, but you can you can just shave and get a
00:25:56
haircut and then you don't look like Charles Manson. Well, that would be almost as if
00:26:02
um somebody said, "Look, Ed Keer is so interesting in this Mine Hunter series. Let's do a spin-off and do a eight-part
00:26:10
series with Ed Keer." Um, I could see a lot of people interested in watching something like that. But again, it's
00:26:17
just the fact that you look enough like this individual, this this awful individual. So, you see Ed Keer, you
00:26:25
also see Burkowisk. Am I saying that correctly? David Burkowitz. Yeah. And um Be elabub, the chubby bohemoth. The
00:26:33
chubby bohemoth. Yeah. Um so you see Son of Sam and and that's interesting. And again that that just puts a giant
00:26:42
timestamp if you if you haven't seen Son uh Summer of Sam I think is the name of
00:26:47
the movie um with John Leguisama which was also in the chef. Um but yeah, so um it's it's a timestamp
00:27:00
of the the 70s and then you pointed out uh something that I um I think I got the
00:27:08
second time or the third time that I watched, but the scene that I got was you kind of see a car driving along
00:27:16
going slow and uh there's a little black boy maybe um 10, 12 years old, something like
00:27:25
that. Mhm. And when I saw that image, I thought, "Oh, Atlanta child murders." But I didn't I didn't know that for
00:27:34
sure. And then when we were talking about the trailer just, you know, seconds ago, you you brought that up.
00:27:40
Uh, which is a good point, you know, good pointing that out. But there's also other scenes in the trailer that once
00:27:46
you set it and we rewatch the trailer, you go, "Oh, that that could be actually, you know, you can't tell from
00:27:55
a trailer obviously cuz you don't know why they picked which clips or what they're trying to do." But it's only a
00:28:00
minute long trailer and there's more clips of that than there are of Charles Manson. So again, maybe they just show a
00:28:07
interview with Charles Manson. Maybe they just show an interview with Son of Sam. But maybe this is a bigger part of
00:28:14
the story is kind of what you were saying. Well, what will be interesting to me is if that conversation between
00:28:22
Holden and Ed Keer, who's that about because on the surface you want to go, well, that might be about BTK, but it
00:28:30
also very likely could be about the at the Atlanta child killer. Well, they might never even talk about the BTK for
00:28:39
all we know. It could be because they didn't in season one. They just show these little clips, right? And what I
00:28:45
stated at the I think the middle of season 1 or or as as I was watching it, me and you were talking about it, I said
00:28:53
it would be genius, absolute genius if they don't even get to BTK on the second se uh season and still
00:29:04
have him be like this recurring we show a minute, 2 minute clip of BTK every episode and keep that going because we
00:29:12
obviously know that he wasn't caught. in the 70s. So, and it seems like this whole time frame, it's not like a true
00:29:20
detective where it's going back and forth in time and everything. So, um I would assume that, you know, they're
00:29:28
obviously not going to catch him. That doesn't mean they might not bring him up in their talks, but
00:29:35
um like you said, is this is this conversation that we hear at the beginning is this about uh Dennis Raider
00:29:44
or is this about the Atlanta child murders? Yeah. So, from my understanding, I think John Douglas had
00:29:55
some had some loose involvement. the FBI had some loose involvement in the BTK case and I think it was fairly early on.
00:30:03
Right. Right. And so this was a case that as it continued they weren't really active in the actual investigation. Now
00:30:12
Dennis Rder was not apprehended until 2005 and he started killing in the early 70s.
00:30:19
So, this was always like um kind of a hobby case for John Douglas. It was one that he always kept
00:30:28
an eye on from afar and kept if he were ever in the area working another case, he would go and hope to get some
00:30:37
information. And so, he always kept an eye on this case. And so the way that I think that the story if I was a betting
00:30:44
man uh what I man here here's the way that I would I would I I love this. We're we're trying to deduce what
00:30:53
somebody might do with with something that you can fictionalize in parts. I read somewhere a year or so ago
00:31:04
that that Mine Hunter is already predetermined to be five seasons. That's it and that's all. So, five seasons,
00:31:10
which which is kind of a real kick in the in the a real kick in the junk there, cuz
00:31:17
you want as many seasons as possible, but kick in the grundle. So, let's just absorb that kick together, friends.
00:31:24
Let's absorb. A moment of silence. Well, to me I I it's weird because um as we've you know I think what we
00:31:37
start 2015 something like that and somebody mentioned the other day that during the question and answer I said
00:31:45
true crime is not my thing and and I I stand by that. It's it's not my thing. It's a percentage. You know
00:31:55
everybody has percentage. Some people true crime is it's 98% of everything they do. I back then I I and I stand by it.
00:32:04
It's a percentage. But the more cases that we have covered, the psychology of what is
00:32:13
happening in the actual murder and the planning of the murder and then and the search for the murderer has fascinated
00:32:23
me more and more every year that we have dove into this. And then the psych again
00:32:28
the psychology of the detectives and we kind of talked about this with the deli when when he brings
00:32:35
up a a movie about this cabin about grief and everything and again I think it's just
00:32:45
he was presenting an idea the sergeant was presenting an idea that that a community was grieving and this movie
00:32:53
was about grieving. But little things like that I've been hanging on to so much. And when True
00:33:01
Detective season 3 came out and again they're fictional works, but I think it's the psychology of these people
00:33:08
trying to figure out and and just last week I went back and read and we we've done this on several
00:33:16
cases where you're reading the profile that the FBI came up with or somebody came up with and then when they catch
00:33:25
the bastard, the profile fits It's so similar. It's so similar. There's things in there when the
00:33:34
profile's made that you're like, "What?" Most of the time, yeah, I I think the the majority of the time, but it's it's
00:33:40
really to me no different. And this is what I think is fascinating about it. It's, you know, when you're playing when
00:33:48
you're playing poker, okay, you're sitting at a table playing poker, you know what cards you have in your hand.
00:33:55
You might know if you're playing Texas Holdem, you know what cards are on the table. You do not know what cards your
00:34:02
opponents have and you do not know what cards still remain in the deck, right? And that and that's very similar to
00:34:09
crime in the sense of right if you're a detective, you know what you hold and then what's on the table that that's the
00:34:16
murder that's the murder scene. That's the that's the scenario. But the thing is, you know, when you're looking at
00:34:22
your cards and and the cards that are on the table, regardless of not knowing what your your opponents have, you know
00:34:28
that a full house beats a straight. So, if you're chasing a full house because you think that somebody else may have a
00:34:37
a straight or something uh higher than what you currently hold in your hand, you can mathematically go, okay, well,
00:34:43
judging by the cards that I have in my hand and the cards that are on the table, how many opportunities does that
00:34:49
leave me to get to that full house, right, that wins? Okay, it's the same thing with with what
00:34:58
they're doing in the profile. And what's so genius about Robert Wrestler and John
00:35:03
Douglas, what they did was they're like, "Look, let's go interview all of these known serial killers that are behind
00:35:10
bars. Let's interview them. Find out who they are, what they're into, what what makes them tick, right? What cards are
00:35:17
they holding?" Yeah. And then from there, you you go, "Okay, well, we have this unsolved case, and here's what we
00:35:25
know based off of the evidence. how can we apply what we've learned, the knowledge that we've already established
00:35:32
from these killers that we've already interviewed. So, and then they're just going to apply that. It's it's kind of a
00:35:38
numbers game is what you're doing where you're going, okay, well, we've seen that uh a lot of times these people grew
00:35:44
up to they were abused, they abused animals, they killed animals, they wet the bed, uh they were stutters or, you
00:35:51
know, there played with fire. Yeah, they played with fire. There's all these different things and they go, "Okay,
00:35:56
well, it's just a numbers game because we've seen that the majority of the time by killers who do this or do that and
00:36:04
then apply it to your unsolved case with with season two and going forward with season 3, four, and five. The way that I
00:36:13
think that this whole story is going to play out is I think that you're going to
00:36:17
continue to see clips of Dennis Raid or BTK who they will not be actively investigating for most of these clips.
00:36:27
Most of them have just so far been him by himself or he's waiting the one where he's waiting in the home. Remember that
00:36:34
case? We talked about that one where the the woman just never just never came home, right? And he got fed up and he
00:36:38
left. So, they showed a clip of that in season 1. And now you see that he's he's
00:36:43
doing the thing with ADT, which we know that that uh was provided him the ability to drive around and not have to
00:36:51
answer to a lot of people or account for his time. I think what you're going to see with BTK is that's going to be
00:37:00
that's going to be the end of the whole five seasons. I think it's going to continue to build up and build up and
00:37:06
build up. And then season five will be the apprehension of Dennis Rder as well as John Douglas going to interview
00:37:14
Dennis Rder because we know that he interviewed him after he was locked up. I think Douglas was actually retired at
00:37:21
the time and asked for special permission to go interview Dennis Rder. And Raider with with the egoomaniac that
00:37:28
Raider is, he gladly accepted an interview with John Douglas. I mean, Raider read true crime, right, most of
00:37:37
his life and probably read several of John Douglas's books, but well, so we got we got season 1 done, season
00:37:46
270s, season 3 maybe 80s, season 49s, season 5 2000s 2005. So that would make sense if
00:37:58
they do it that way. I think season two will end in the early 80s because the Atlanta child murders took place between
00:38:04
79 and 81 or or this one could end in early 80s. That's what I mean. Season two. Well, okay. I'm sorry. I'm half
00:38:13
half awake. Yeah. So, season two is going to feature, I think, for a large portion of season 2, the Atlanta child
00:38:21
murders, right? And that took place from 79 to 81. Uh Wayne Williams, I'm guessing it might
00:38:28
might have been as late as 82 that he was convicted. I guarantee you they're going to go through the trial in this
00:38:35
season. They're going to they're going to do that as kind of a complete story. Now, what will be interesting too is
00:38:41
what other cases, unsolved cases, do they investigate along the way? Because the whole idea that we are presented
00:38:48
with in season 1 is that while we were out either teaching uh this method to police departments or
00:38:56
to law enforcement agencies, we will then visit killers in the area who are who are inmates in the area and
00:39:03
interview them at that time. Or, you know, we're out investigating an unsolved case and and
00:39:11
we go conduct these interviews around the same time. So, I wonder if there's just going to be less of that because we
00:39:16
like we've we've already seen like I said, Son of Sam, um Charles Manson, we've seen that they talked to Keer. Um
00:39:26
so, I just wonder if there's going to be more of of talking to the killers and less um them solving crimes because
00:39:33
there was a lot of crimes la last season. Well, it makes me wonder if they're going to be investigating a
00:39:38
crime in California where we know Manson is housed. Yeah. Uh and then in New York
00:39:44
where we know David Burkowitz, right, serving time and um so that will be interesting. I think
00:39:52
that um if I remember correctly, there was a crime in New York and I a murder that took place in New York and I don't
00:40:00
know if it would line up at the same time period, but there was a crime that this murder took place and and I I can't
00:40:08
remember the victim's name and I'm not going to go into detail because it could be part of season 2. It was one of those
00:40:14
murders where the profile solved the crime, which is super rare, super super rare, but it was an instance where the
00:40:22
profile itself led to the direct apprehension of the the killer. Interesting. And I know it took place in
00:40:30
New York, so it would be interesting if that's why they are interviewing David Burkowitz
00:40:36
uh at the same time. If that if that tends to match up with it. And I love John Douglas and but Douglas
00:40:44
um there are several things that he likes to point out and one of those is when he is right and and he likes to
00:40:51
remind us of when he is right and that is that's why he likes to do that though but but it's also his job when you think
00:40:57
about it because that that division and that method of investigation and that that investigative tool that they they
00:41:05
came up with and put together some people don't have any belief in it. And so in a way to keep
00:41:14
that around, you do have to sell that. You have to sell what you're making. Mhm. You know, that could have went
00:41:20
away. Something that these guys were doing very well. And and there's others. There's Roy Hazelwood. There's many
00:41:26
other uh FBI agents that were involved in this program for many, many years. Um, but you know, I took some criticism
00:41:34
one time that people say all you Nick, whoever you only talk about John Douglas and and uh Robert
00:41:41
Wrestler and uh so I wanted to give Hazelwood some credit there. But keep in mind that's who Mine Hunter is about,
00:41:49
who this show is about, and that's why we we got to it so often. So, Atlanta child murders, that's going
00:41:57
to be super interesting because if anybody listened to our our coverage, which was a long time ago, long time,
00:42:04
get this get the Stitcher app and listen to it for free. But, uh, it it was one of those
00:42:13
cases where they brought in the super cops and the FBI was brought in as part of this task force. This Atlanta child
00:42:23
killing case is a monumental case. It was huge at the time. It because there were so many murders happening so
00:42:32
quickly that the whole nation was basically watching Atlanta, right? For those for those two years once this
00:42:40
thing picked up and got legs and started running, the whole country was watching
00:42:45
Atlanta. and this task force and the FBI went in there and they stomped out the problem. They shook some trees and and
00:42:53
and Wayne Williams fell out of one of those trees and they they locked them up. Now, what's weird about that case
00:43:02
is there are some that say Wayne Williams didn't do it. Wayne Williams is one of those people. Wayne Williams is
00:43:09
complete [ __ ] He absolutely killed several people. He may not have killed all 28. There were 28 victims in that
00:43:17
two-year time period. That's a lot of victims in a short period of time. He has actually only been convicted of two
00:43:25
of those 28. So 26 of those are technically unsolved cases. Many of those 26 he very likely was the killer.
00:43:34
Um it's also very likely that he didn't kill all 26 of those unsolved cases. that the one or two or three may have
00:43:42
may have been another killer that just got lumped in with his activity at the time. But one thing that's interesting
00:43:50
is in March of this year, the the city came together and went to the mayor and said, "Look, those unsolved cases, can
00:44:00
you can you have the agencies that were investigating them at the time, can you have them reopen those cases because
00:44:06
here we are now over 30 years later, Yeah. technology has changed, detective work and investigative tools have
00:44:15
changed, and they're saying, "Let's go ahead and if if if Wayne Williams did more of these, and we can we can
00:44:22
definitively say that, let's close out some of these cases." Yeah. So, it'd be interesting to see what they come up
00:44:29
with that. I mean, that was just March of this year, so um you would think we might start hearing some movement on
00:44:36
those. I don't know if if if they're using DNA in in in some of those cases. That's not what they said, but Right.
00:44:44
Right. But I'm sure that on in some of the cases they could. And and what I always wondered was because it became
00:44:51
such a national story and some of the stuff that I was reading about the KKK in that area is is is that it opened up
00:45:00
a opportunity. you know, you have these kids being murdered and then it opens up
00:45:07
an opportunity for you to move into the area and possibly do do some things. So,
00:45:13
I not saying that that is what happened, but it always frustrates me when you're talking with individuals
00:45:22
about cases like this and and they can't see the idea that it could be it doesn't
00:45:27
have to just be, you know, did this guy kill all the kids, you know, he either killed them all or he didn't kill any of
00:45:34
them. And I don't think that's um really how that case probably would shake down if we're able to dive into
00:45:43
each each case individually. I think he might be responsible for most of them, but I think that because of that
00:45:51
situation, it's kind of like back with like um the vanishing women from Chilocafi. You have a couple women go
00:46:00
missing. That opens up, I think, opportunity for other killers. Possibly the same thing with like um Long Island
00:46:09
serial killer. Well, and the thing too that's so important to the story of Minehunter, the Atlanta child case was
00:46:19
huge for the the behavioral science unit, the BSU, because there was a threat of it going away, of that unit
00:46:29
going away, that the FBI was going to decommission that unit and that in that um and that might be a part of season
00:46:37
two. Well, it should be because it they were going to decommission the unit or there were talks of doing that and then
00:46:45
when the super cops and the task force was put together in the Atlanta case and then solved the Atlanta case, that's
00:46:51
when it it it changed everything. That's when it it skyrocketed and they're like,
00:46:57
"Well, we have to have this unit." The the the the biggest case in, you know, some people were calling that the
00:47:04
biggest case in in American history at the time. And it was certainly one of the biggest serial killer cases of all
00:47:11
time. It it gets it gets dismissed by current day because it was so short of a time period and it's not one that's
00:47:21
that's talked about a whole heck of a lot. But at the time and anybody that lived through that that's old older than
00:47:29
me, I was too I was just a you know one or two years old when that whole thing was going on. But anybody that was a
00:47:36
teenager or an adult at that time will tell you that case was huge. And when the FBI and the task force came in there
00:47:44
and straightened this whole thing out, look, they were not close to solving it until the super cops came in.
00:47:52
And the first thing that the BSU did when they came in was they put together a profile of the killer. And at the
00:47:59
time, the general public and law enforcement believed that the killer was likely white. Well, the FBI and these
00:48:08
super cops in the task force, they started going into these neighborhoods where the kids were disappearing from.
00:48:14
And the first thing that they noticed was they stood out like a sore thumb and that the general public in those areas
00:48:21
were not so receptive to seeing a couple white guys in a suit driving around in a
00:48:27
car that they didn't recognize. And so the first thing that they came up with in their profile was the killer is
00:48:33
African-American. The victims are African-American. And the reason why they came up with that was this guy
00:48:40
would have been caught. Had he been white, he would have been he would have been noticed and remembered by more
00:48:47
people in the area. The reason why Wayne Williams went undetected was he fit into
00:48:52
the area of where he was abducting his victims. People did. He didn't stand out for any reason. He wasn't anything
00:48:59
special. He fit into that area. And it was just that simple twist. And when they released that
00:49:08
profile, that changed everything because a lot of people challenged that and said, you brought in these guys that
00:49:14
it's like they're they're looking into a crystal ball and they're they're doing something we don't understand. It's
00:49:20
hocus pocus, man. Yeah. And turns out that they were right. And I don't care what anybody says, especially Wayne
00:49:28
Williams, who who claims his innocence. And I I don't won't have a conversation with anybody that says says Wayne
00:49:35
Williams is innocent for this very fact. And they they will point this out in season two 100%. And this is one of my
00:49:42
favorite moments for John Douglas's career. They So they weren't convinced that they were going to get a conviction
00:49:51
of Wayne Williams. Wayne Williams is such an egoomaniac and thought that he was so smart, so much smarter than the
00:49:58
police. He was taunting the police like when he he started putting bodies in the
00:50:03
water because he would watch the news and they're like, "We found some evidence on this body." He's like, "All
00:50:07
right, cool. I'll change up what I'm doing." And then when the police would issue some kind of warning and and and
00:50:13
tell people not to do this, tell the public not to do that, he would go out of his way to commit a murder that would
00:50:19
involve what their warning was. So in a way he was he was playing a game with them not only for his own fantasy but to
00:50:27
be this serial killer much like Dennis Rder playing a game with them right and so he was such an egoomaniac that he
00:50:37
said he told his lawyer I'm going to take the stand they don't have [ __ ] on me and I'm going to get up there I'm
00:50:43
smarter than this prosecutor I'm smarter than the jury I'm smarter than the judge
00:50:47
I'm going to get up there I'm going to defend myself and when I get off the stand they're going to They have nothing
00:50:52
on me. They're going to let me go. So the FBI, the BSU spoke with the prosecutor and the prosecuting team for
00:51:00
days and days and days and they said, "What you have to do is get him to lose control on the stand. You have to you
00:51:09
have to trick him. He thinks he's smarter than you. He is going to have an answer for everything you say. So you
00:51:16
need to wind him up like a toy. And then eventually you let him go. And if you give him enough rope, he'll hang
00:51:22
himself. And with Wayne Williams, for anybody that thinks that he's innocent, he you got as close to a
00:51:30
confession as you can possibly get with this individual. So the prosecutor starts winding him up, right? Wayne
00:51:37
Williams is on the stand and the prosecutor comes in there peppering him with questions, statements, body blow,
00:51:43
body blow, jab, jab, pepper him, pepper him, pepper him. He gets Wayne Williams so wound up that Wayne is now question
00:51:52
boom answer question boom answer question boom answer and then the prosecutor gets louder and louder and
00:51:58
louder and closer and closer and closer and then he leans in right into Wayne Williams's face and he said when you
00:52:05
were choking those children and you saw the look in their eyes were you afraid and Wayne Williams said
00:52:12
no he wound him up and got him that's as close to a confession as you're going to
00:52:18
get and it was with that one word, no that that jury convicted Wayne Williams of two of the murders. Now, after the
00:52:26
trial, the media was so fascinated by these super cops and by the BSU and John Douglas that came in from the FBI and
00:52:33
really took this case, this investigation that was going absolutely nowhere. They weren't going to solve
00:52:39
this thing. They they were not going to solve this thing until the super cops came in. And so the media is fascinated
00:52:47
by this whole new process as was America that they interviewed John Douglas. Now
00:52:52
this is where same thing though, John Douglas, I love him, but you give him enough rope and he'll hang himself as
00:52:58
well. And this is where John Douglas's uh name skyrocketed. This is where when John Douglas not only became famous, but
00:53:06
he also got in hot water with the FBI because they asked, remember there was still controversy at the time. Did Wayne
00:53:15
Williams, was he the Atlanta child killer? Was he the man who killed 28 people, some children, some adults? And
00:53:24
Douglas very publicly said, you know, he he was kind of walking and they they they shove a microphone in his face and
00:53:32
ask him a couple questions. Was is Wayne Williams the the Atlanta child killer? Did he kill 28 people? And Douglas says,
00:53:40
"Well, I like him for a lot of these or I like him for most of these." Right? So
00:53:46
that's Douglas, too admitting 100% he doesn't know if Wayne Williams killed all these people, but he certainly
00:53:52
killed a good good bunch of them. And so this got Douglas in trouble with the FBI
00:53:59
because they're like, "Look, you can't be commenting on a on a case in the public like that." um especially not
00:54:07
without without our permission without permission from from your higher ups. But this this little clip, this little
00:54:14
interview was played across the country. And that's where again Douglas became became a a name that was known
00:54:24
throughout law enforcement, right? But but he also got himself in hot water with the FBI. Well, if you can't
00:54:31
tell you crazy animals that we're excited about season two of Mine Hunter, then you got some problems.
00:54:41
I think Nick just went on the 20-minute ride. I'm sorry, but Yeah. No. Yeah. Somebody put on our blog like a month or
00:54:49
so ago, they're like, "Uh, I I feel like True Crime Garage is just one long commercial for uh Mine Hunter." Well,
00:54:58
maybe it is. Maybe it is. Maybe that's the genius of Mine Hunter. Maybe we're six son of a [ __ ] Yeah, we're we're
00:55:05
puppets and and John Douglas is behind. He's above the garage for all you guys. Manipulating. Yeah, our show was started
00:55:12
by the FBI. This started by the FBI in a garage. All right, we said too much. Shut it down.
00:55:19
All right. So, Mind Hunter, check out the trailer and uh you say season 2 starts when you think I think it's um
00:55:28
I'm going to look at a calendar here because I think it's a Friday and we're getting close. I think it's Friday the
00:55:35
16th [Applause]