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thank you [Music] [Music] thank you welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that knows the solution to all problems worldwide
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is simple it pure rock Fury ladies and gentlemen here is the captain yeah pure Arc Fury and a little hip hop anonymous
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out of five and let's give some thanks a praise to our good friends that helped us out with this week's beer run first
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around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] foreign [Music]
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[Music] January of 1990 the messenger Inquirer reported the following with the headline at the top of page one
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announcing victim of brutal murder discovered the body of a man beaten and shot with
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hands feet and teeth removed was discovered Sunday morning January 7 1990 in South Davies County Kentucky
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the public affairs officer for Kentucky State Police says quote it's absolutely a case of
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Foul Play and whoever did this attempted to obscure the identity of the body they
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didn't want any fingerprints or any identification from dental records it appears that was deliberate
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one trooper with over 15 years experience with the force described it as the most brutal murder he has seen
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the Davies County coroner was at the scene and judging from a preliminary inspection
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said of the body it appears the victim was shot at least twice and severely beaten on the chest
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and head with a blunt instrument he said that there were no tattoos or identifying marks on the body
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the unidentified victim was described as being white 25 to 35 years old 125 to 140 pounds about five feet seven
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inches tall with collar length brown hair Kentucky State Police said a cadaver dog
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trained to find bodies will be brought in to search the area for the victim's body parts
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but would not say whether anything besides the body was found at the scene police have no suspects he said
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police were urging anyone who may have seen anything unusual or know of a missing person meeting the description
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of the victim to call the State Police or the Sheriff's Department they would be keeping all calls
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confidential they said adding that the description of the victim will be sent to law enforcement
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agencies across the country there is a great quote that sums it up nicely by one of the officers in charge
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of the scene when asked to comment on the murder the body recovery scene and the situation as
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a whole he simply said it's bizarre the Kentucky State Police said that they would be pursuing all of the
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possibilities and quote it may just be a brutal murder or it could be a sophisticated type
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situation but it is kind of an unusual situation this is True Crime garage is true
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well Captain we are once again in the great state of Kentucky and here we are talking about another unidentified
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remains that were found in Kentucky and I want to take it a step further than what we did in the trailer so what you
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heard in the trailer there everyone is kind of pieces from the first article that ever came out about this case and
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that would be from January of 1990. now the second newspaper article and this is
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the same newspaper I don't know if it's the same writer or not but we have the same newspaper here and just on day two
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I want everybody to kind of hear how the information has changed already now what
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is stated in the trailer is based off of what they would call a preliminary autopsy and that's just simply that we
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have the coroner on scene where this body is found and located and kind of assessing the victim and the situation
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as he or she would see it on the crime scene and then speaking with the newspaper this article comes out after
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they've had time to actually conduct a proper autopsy so listen to how some of this information has changed or or the
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variations of the information that we have in this case this article is written by Steve hunt and it's from the
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next day saying the headline says slaying victim remains unidentified it says after an autopsy a search by a
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cadaver dog and checks of numerous leads authorities have not identified the mutilated body of a man found Sunday in
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eastern Davies County the victim a white male this time we have him listed at 25
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to 30 years old and now they know that he has been shot six times three times in the head and three times in the chest
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with a 22 caliber weapon the victim also had been severely beaten with a blunt instrument and his skull was crushed the
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autopsy did not determine what type of instrument was used in the blunt force trauma the man's nude body with its
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hands and feet severed was discovered off of Pleasant Valley Road again that's Davies County Kentucky police initially
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reported that the victim's teeth had been removed but the autopsy revealed that the majority of the teeth were
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still intact of the 2000 death investigations that this coroner has worked he says quote this is the
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weirdest the victim is described as being about five feet seven inches tall 120 to 140 pounds with collar length
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brown hair I do want to note that I've seen on the internet captain that this collar length brown hair
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yeah even though it's reported this way in the first couple days I've seen reports on the internet that state that
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it could be hair as long as eight inches so I don't know what the discrepancy is
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there but it appears that this individual had quite curly hair and that will become obvious When anybody looks
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up pictures of this still unidentified individual difficult thing about this case is the conflicting information
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online yes but when they say this is the weirdest case I mean to me it's brutal and maybe possibly leans to
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more than one attacker because how much damage was done to this individual and I
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think that the the suspicions that you have and that I have really kind of echo what the officer was saying at the crime
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scene at the body recovery scene that very first day where he says look this just might be another brutal murder or
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it could be something far more sophisticated right we just don't know at this time because we've not been able
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to identify this victim the article goes on to say and this is the coroner's word
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saying that the victim's hands had been cut off at the wrist and the feet cut off at the ankles and they were unable
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to determine the instrument or what instrument was used to amputate the hands and feet by amputating the hands
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you're eliminating one of the identifiers but by leaving the teeth then you could get identification
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through through dental records yes and the article goes on to state that you know the the sheriff the Davies County
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Sheriff at the time he's saying this autopsy was very helpful it did answer some of the questions we have we now
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know a little bit more about the circumstances not only how the victim died but what he may have been dealing
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with in terms of a perpetrator or I'm sorry what they may be dealing with in terms of a perpetrator he declined to
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elaborate the the sheriff did of course if this is sounding familiar to anybody we covered a case on episode 534
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we titled that case man with no hands this case is possibly connected to that one yeah and people are probably
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thinking hey this sounds familiar that's exactly why because it's a very similar
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case where the man with no hands still is just that he's he's a man who has not been named yet he's not been given his
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name back they're roughly found around the same time in both in the state of Kentucky and we'll get into those kind
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of similarities and differences here in a minute they go on to say the state police goes on to say in this article
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that that KET the cadaver dog was brought in they were hoping to find the head I'm sorry they were hoping to find
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the hands and feet somewhere at this scene and even with the cadaver dog nothing turned up so
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somebody somebody dumped this body there and were very aware and went out of their way to to not leave these items
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behind so let me just get this correctly so we have multiple gunshots we have blunt force trauma to the chest and head
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and then we have severed hands and feet yeah and so here's what I'm not clear on
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and I was hoping to get some clarification on this and maybe we'll we will at some point it seems like the
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Kentucky State Police are pretty tight-lipped on this case and and I get it and I understand why I don't think
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that either this case or the man with no hands are cold cases I think that they have the potential to heat up very
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quickly and a lot of that's based off of Just science right obviously they have the DNA of the man with no hands and
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they have the DNA of the Davies County John Doe right what you're hoping at least with that information that at some
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point if we identify our victim that may lead us to one understanding the circumstances in how and why this
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individual was attacked or killed it also may lead you to a suspect pool a pool of people that would have been
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close to this individual maybe they have criminal maybe there's a criminal element with inside that Social Circle
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and so it could lead you to to the suspect just by identifying the victim here what's so interesting about that to
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me and why I think that that's a very likely situation here Captain is that look at what the lengths that the
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perpetrator or perpetrators went to to make sure that the person was not identified right and so it could lead
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you right to the suspect's doorstep again the the weird thing here is I'm unclear about the the teeth
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right so we two very different reports very quickly in this case where the day of they're saying look teeth were
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removed this second day they're saying there were some teeth missing but there were
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not none of them were extracted right so what I'm wondering if you look at where
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the blunt force trauma occurs on the victim here again they say chest and head but to me the majority of it is on
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the face itself yeah in the face and if anybody was listening to our show last week they know that that's important but
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here I wonder Captain if the the teeth missing any of the teeth that are missing
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if they're simply missing because of the blunt force trauma that maybe somebody didn't go out of their way to extract
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them the way that some reports have said here it's just happenstance that when you are applying that force and that
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doing that damage bones are going to break bones will chip teeth will chip teeth will be knocked out it's difficult
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in in both of these cases to think that there's a family out there that has a missing person in their family why
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hasn't this individual been identified and so by us shining the light on it and being able to share this information and
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share the image of this victim that that maybe somebody will come forward and say
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hey I I knew that guy or or that's a family member right and the thing too you know they're going to do their work
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behind the scenes to process all the physical evidence that was found at the scene this would be things like blood
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hair fiber samples bullets taken from the body and that last bullets taken from the body is an interesting line
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there too because really looking at this crime scene and where they find the victim
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I'm guessing that any physical evidence they have they're going to have to pull it from the victim themselves it doesn't
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appear like this crime scene will have a wealth of physical evidence it simply looks to me like somebody dumped this
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poor guy there covered him up with some sticks and he's he's in the thickets I mean he's in the woods pretty much and
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that I guess that's another interesting angle to this whole case when you look at it and it's something that reminds me
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very much of the man with no hands obviously that we have a situation that it looks to me like it probably would
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have taken two individuals to place this person where he was ultimately found and
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so while you may only have one actual murderer you may have more people involved in disposing of this individual
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now the man with no hands you know he's found in a barn he's six foot five even even on the short end of it they have
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him listed at six foot four right I've seen him listed as tall as six foot six but General consensus seems to be the
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man with no hands was six foot five two hundred and thirty pounds and he's found
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inside a barn unless you had some tools or something to help you move that person that's going to require two
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people to place him here now our Davies County John Doe he is significantly smaller than the man with no hands they
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have him listed at approximately five foot six to five foot seven inches tall 125 to 140 pounds
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so significantly smaller than the man with no hands however given the lay of the land and where the body was found
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again he's found in the thickets in the woods it looks to me like a good chance that
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somebody may have had to carry him a decent distance from from the road we don't have any tire tracks that if if
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they do have them they've not said this publicly that they have any certain types of tire that they are looking for
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what information we do have that is interesting to me is that the corner stating that we believe that he was
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killed within a day or a couple days of being found so he's not the decomposition's not extreme here if
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we were hoping to find tire tracks or if there ever were any if anybody did drive
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off the road you would think you would be finding them given the short period of time that elapsed between placing the
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body there and then when these two Hunters are out in the woods and discover this pile of sticks with the
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man underneath of it right but also if these cases were connected as the murderer maybe you don't
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place this individual in a Tobacco Barn because you don't want them to be connected right so let's take a look at
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that the Grant County John Doe if you if you were to want to officially look up the man with no hands
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he's referred to as the Grant County John Doe we chose this other name and don't attack us for it because we didn't
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come up with it it was actually reported one way at some point that a news Outlet
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reported him to be the man with no hands and that was a very interesting title and why do you choose an interesting
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title well this guy needs to be identified and the more people that are interested in listening to the
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information and looking up the information the better chance it is that he gets identified right so that's why
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you roll with that so let's compare the Grant County John Doe the man with no hands to this Davies County John Doe the
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Davies County John Doe is found January 7 1990 and remember it's believed that he was killed shortly before being
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placed there we have our man with no hands is found April 9 1989. so less than a year apart now they were
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found about approximately 185 to 190 miles apart when they're asked about how bizarre this Davies
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County John Doe case and situation is you can almost see it you can almost see it if you're reading between the lines
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of their words where they're like yeah this is pretty unusual this is very unusual they won't go out of their way
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to say it's the only thing we've ever seen like this no because the officers at the same time they're at the scene
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and they're going oh wait a second where have I heard of something like this before oh it was in our state and it
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happened less than a year ago where the hands were removed of another victim yeah you'd have to assume that
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law enforcement heard about the other case you'd have to assume at some point that maybe even those law enforcement
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agencies reach out to other people in the state for some help to possibly identify the victim well and in both
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cases here Captain we got the state police that are called in immediately right so it's technically belongs to the
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same agency you just have different posts that have these uh jurisdiction or or will be actively working a particular
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case but let's let's refresh the memories of the beautiful listeners out there so when we're talking about the man with
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no hands again that was an episode we did last year November of 2021 episode number 534 the very basic General
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summary of the case and this is by the vi cap alert that's on fbi.gov you can find this on their
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website says on Sunday April 9 1989 the victim's remains were discovered in a Tobacco Barn in rural Grant County
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Kentucky it is estimated the victim was killed approximately two weeks prior the
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victim was shot twice in the back of his head with a 22 caliber gun or sorry 22 caliber weapon is the exact words they
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use here his hands were cut off and he was stripped of all of his clothing the victim had extensive dental work to
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include a 10-unit porcelain fixed a porcelain to Metal Bridge with missing teeth replaced with porcelain pontics I
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believe is how you say that for additional information and photographs regarding this victim refer to the
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National missing and unidentified person's system namus database case report number
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up86 because of the extensive dental work I can't believe that this individual has not been identified right
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that's that's always been a very troubling thing for me the first thought that you have in this situation when
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somebody like this has not been identified you start to wonder has he ever been reported missing has he ever
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been reported missing from anywhere I mean we went through our coverage of that case we went through persons that
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would match his height that were reported missing in the months and years leading up to it and we couldn't find
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anybody that looked like him we had some great listener feedback on this as well
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and with this other case with the Davies County John Doe we hear the same thing repeated in the
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Grant County case and the man with no hands case 22 caliber weapon weird right well I know that that's a
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pretty common caliber to to use and we we often will cite that on many cases that we've covered here in the garage
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but interesting that the bodies disposed of in a very similar fashion and so much so that we're talking 30
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years later neither of these individuals have been identified still to this day and in both
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cases the same caliber of weapon is used and the man with no hands case shot in the back of the head that seems
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execution style to me with the Davies County John Doe I mean it does seem a little different right I mean
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it's if we have the blunt force trauma along with six gunshots so a little bit different in that situation but we have
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the same caliber the first thing I'm doing if I'm law enforcement is I'm doing a ballistic test to see if those
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bullets match the same gun as the first victim exactly and the other thing that makes this really interesting here too
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Captain is unfortunately 30 32 years later neither of these individuals identified yet but the work that
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Kentucky State Police have done on both of these cases it they've done a lot of hard good work on these cases and that's
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why I think that either one of them could heat up like that I mean at a moment's notice they can heat up very
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quickly in both cases now as far as the Davies County John Doe goes we did have the officers pointing out very quickly
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early on and they're like look this is going to be particularly difficult to investigate because usually we law
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enforcement police we have more leads to go on we usually have something to use as a starting point they're saying here
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we don't know who the the victim is we don't know how he got here we don't believe him to be local we believe that
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he was killed just days or a couple days prior to being placed here but we have no victim name no no clothing nothing to
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point us in any kind of Direction at all and one thing that makes this particularly difficult too is we found
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this with the man with no hands at some point in their investigation they've not
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released a whole lot to the public but at some point their investigation they start kicking the tires on this idea
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that well maybe this man was brought here maybe he was driven here from a great distance to be dumped here we
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already know that they went to the extent of lengths of removing his hands well maybe they didn't mind driving
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hundreds of miles several states away to dispose of this person's body now in the
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Davies County John Doe situation they point out that the victim had a quote farmer's tan well he's found
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in January in Northern Kentucky in fact this is um I've never been to Davies County but
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it it's directly below the uh Indiana border state line there he's found in January in Northern Kentucky and found
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within a day or so of having been killed yet he has a farmer's tent and so one thing that they did put out to the
00:26:11
public fairly quickly in in the Davies County case is based off of that information we're we're looking for a
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breadcrumb here we are looking for a breadcrumb here we're going to throw this out to the public and say because
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of this farmer's tan there's a good chance he was brought here from someplace else yeah unless he's a
00:26:30
complete Weirdo And and wears his T-shirt into the tanning bed exactly exactly so that throws a whole nother
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wrench into this situation and we do know that they were putting out the victim's description across the country
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they were looking for anybody that would vaguely match the description of this man this is also a tricky situation I
00:26:52
think for law enforcement because if you do identify as family does this put his
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family either one of the victims does it put their family In Harm's Way [Music] foreign
00:27:25
[Music] all right we are back to the windows to the walls cheers everybody cheers and make sure
00:27:41
you subscribe to the show that's right because we were at least shows willy-nilly whenever we feel like it
00:27:46
you'll probably miss one if you're not subscribing yeah don't be left don't be left in the dark that's right well here
00:27:53
Captain we got this weird situation when we left off we were talking about how law enforcement were working under the
00:27:59
hypothesis that the victim may be from outside of Davies County that may be driven there and placed there in this in
00:28:09
this spot however they also go out of the way to say that they believe that the killer was probably local
00:28:15
or had some kind of local ties based off of where and how they found the body meaning that they believed that somebody
00:28:22
knew that spot that they didn't just drive and at random pull over and place this victim there so that's a weird kind
00:28:31
of angle to work off of that the victims not from that location but the Killer is
00:28:37
probably local now we have brought up DNA on this case and we know that that's going to be what will ultimately break
00:28:44
this case wide open this situation in 2007 they actually identified the Davies County John Doe as a Scott Michael Morse
00:28:58
so Scott Michael Morris went missing from Indianapolis as a teenager in 1978. let me let's just think about that for a
00:29:06
second I I know we're throwing out a lot of numbers and a lot of locations and information so it gets a little cloudy
00:29:11
sometimes Scott Michael Morris who they identified to be that of the Davies County John Doe
00:29:18
okay soft went missing in 1978 from Indianapolis Davies County John Doe is found in 1990
00:29:26
in Kentucky 12 years 11 and change after this teenager went missing I have a couple different reports here one report
00:29:36
says 2009 the other report says 2010 but regardless both have the same result what they say here Captain is that
00:29:46
further DNA testing I don't know how they arrived at the idea that this person was Scott Michael Morse maybe
00:29:54
some samples got screwed up maybe they were testing something else I I'm a little unclear of how they arrived at
00:30:01
that conclusion yeah but we need to give Kentucky State Police big UPS on this because I mean one of my favorite quotes
00:30:10
is an error only becomes a mistake once you refuse to correct it and here they made an error they did not allow it to
00:30:19
become a mistake because they did correct it and they announced it to the public they're saying look
00:30:24
whether it be 2009 or 2010 we mistakenly identified these remains they do not belong the body does not
00:30:35
belong to that of Scott Michael Morse well one of my favorite quotes is um yes I believe in ghosts but more importantly
00:30:42
I think they should believe in themselves well let's not leave the listeners hanging here because that
00:30:48
Scott Michael Morris angle of the story is interesting in itself so just a quick
00:30:53
little bad choice of words when we're talking about a victim without hands just a quick little aside here as far as
00:31:00
Scott Morris's case goes it says here on the Charlie project website that Scott was last seen in his hometown of
00:31:06
Indianapolis Indiana on August 14 1978. he went to a convenience store down the street from his home and never
00:31:15
returned he was a frequent runaway at the time of his disappearance three days after Scott went missing he called his
00:31:23
family to say that he was working for a carnival in Pennsylvania in 1989 he called a family friend and
00:31:31
said that he was okay and still working for a carnival but would not say where the conversation was very brief and
00:31:39
Scott never got in touch with his loved ones again after that 1989 phone call to
00:31:45
a family friend then we had the nude body found in Davies County Kentucky 1990 was
00:31:53
misidentified as Scott in 2007 the victim had been beaten and shot to death his hands and feet were cut off and his
00:32:00
teeth had been removed again it sounds like only a portion of the teeth were removed and this according to the
00:32:06
Charlie project says in 2009 was when DNA analysis proved that the dead man wasn't Scott more so
00:32:15
a weird angle to that that story that he's misidentified the body's misidentified but then the Scott Morse
00:32:22
case is interesting in itself because he's a known runaway he called a couple times to let his family know that he was
00:32:30
alive in fact he calls the second call comes in 11 years after he goes missing at that point he's not a runaway right
00:32:39
he's never gotten in touch with his family again after 1989 and I've read several articles captain that says that
00:32:45
it's believed that he is is dead that he's no longer with us right and so I guess I mean that's certainly going to
00:32:53
make sense hell this unidentified body was identified to be him but um really I kind of wonder
00:33:01
where this this Scott Morse case goes now if anybody would have any information on the Scott Morris case
00:33:08
you'll want to contact the Indianapolis Police Department for that one at 317-327-6915 but we do want to point out
00:33:17
here based off of all the information we have and that we've seen and received it
00:33:23
appears that Scott Morse wanted to be missing he or at least not with his family yeah but how bizarre is it that
00:33:30
we have a situation where we think possibly because of the distance because of the
00:33:36
time because of the because the way the bodies were found the the torture that was to these victims you could make a
00:33:46
pretty intelligent argument that they're connected and with the 22 caliber yeah then one of the victims is identified
00:33:57
and then they go oops oopsie not not the guy sorry right it makes the case even even stranger
00:34:05
yeah and it's one of those things too that I wanted to make sure that we included
00:34:09
this portion in the show because of what if this Scott Morse guy is still alive and
00:34:18
well and he's fine right he's gone on and he's created a different life for himself living away from his family
00:34:26
we don't know why he left but obviously we have the it's obvious that he did not
00:34:32
want to be with his family for whatever reason but at the same time as The Story
00:34:37
Goes he reaches out at least on two occasions to go out of his way to let them know hey I'm fine I'm you know
00:34:45
nothing terrible has happened to me I wonder if this Scott Morris guy is still out there if they're wrong that
00:34:51
he's not dead has this information that he was you know identified as this this body that was discovered in
00:34:59
Kentucky if this information has just not reached his eyes or ears for some reason
00:35:05
because you have to wonder if he went out of his way twice to let family know hey I'm alive and well right that if
00:35:12
this information had reached him you would think he would reach out one more time and say nope that's not me I'm
00:35:19
not the guy that they found in Kentucky but he's not done that and maybe that's what they're basing off
00:35:24
their statement of well we believe for whatever reason that Scott Morris is is now deceased yeah or strange that
00:35:31
there's no follow-up coming from law enforcement they're the ones that made the mistake
00:35:37
you think maybe at some point they go oh well we you know we did further testing
00:35:42
and we actually think we're wrong and on top of that we actually know what happened to Scott so I do want to make
00:35:48
sure that we discuss the discrepancy in the general information in this case just so that if this were to hit the
00:35:57
right listeners ears that they don't go oh they're not talking about a case that I know about
00:36:04
so rather than rather than we do not know what the exact information is what the most correct information is because
00:36:12
we can only base it off of the very limited information that has been released by the Kentucky State Police
00:36:17
now we have it reported multiple ways from different sources so we're just going to kind of give it all to you and
00:36:26
you can sift through and find what you believe to or or what is in fact the case here but this individual is still
00:36:33
unidentified it's been 32 years it's he's a male that was found in Owensboro Kentucky the age range is weird to me
00:36:42
Captain because I've seen it fluctuate quite a bit it seems to be it seems to be a very fluid situation with this
00:36:49
man's age where he was listed at 20 to 30 years old then at some point He's listed 25 to 30 which is a nice tight
00:36:57
window I like us I like a smaller window so we're more specific here but now as it sits 32 years years later the most
00:37:05
common information you will find is that this individual is estimated to have been 25 to approximately 40 years of age
00:37:13
at the time of his murder he is Caucasian and here again you're going to see a wide swing in the potential height
00:37:21
of this individual where they have him as short as five foot and as tall as five foot seven
00:37:28
and I know that the information that we read at the top of the hour was was different five foot six or five foot
00:37:33
seven but as it sits today most of the information that you find out there will have them listed between five foot and
00:37:40
five foot seven weight seems to be pretty spot on they seem to be pretty convinced about the weight everywhere
00:37:46
I've looked it's all very similar saying 125 to possibly 140 pounds now this particular website
00:37:55
here has the postmortem interval listed at a little bit longer than what we've reported so far which they have it
00:38:05
listed as 36 hours to possibly up to seven days that he was killed before being found I'm gonna go with I really
00:38:13
like what I was hearing from the corner within that first week right that first week the coroner's words always were we
00:38:21
believe he was he was only there for a couple days or had been killed a couple of days before he was found by the two
00:38:27
rabbit Hunters but I'm not trying to be silly here but it'd be tough to give a exact height because he is missing is
00:38:37
right right and and we don't know because I don't think that corner I don't think they released this
00:38:43
information on where where did the uh severing of the feet happen did it happen at the ankle did it happen a
00:38:51
little bit higher we're not really for sure the the early information was the ankles but again that's not something
00:38:57
that's like repeated over and over again so when you see that and you read that you go okay well I'll add that to my
00:39:05
notes and hopefully I get confirmation of that later and you don't you just don't get confirmation of it later right
00:39:11
well somebody knows something in either one of these cases and again I couldn't even default an
00:39:19
individual if you knew something and maybe you knew more of how and why they died you might feel like you're going to
00:39:28
put yourself in danger yeah and while we're on the topic of misidentification we should also point out that very early
00:39:35
on in the case and I'm sure the I mean the the police hate that this didn't work out because it appears that they
00:39:41
had or received some good tip early on in the investigation the way that it's reported is it says rumors but I think
00:39:50
that they received a tip here and maybe the tip was in a form of a rumor but they're saying the rumor was that the
00:39:57
body was that of a Whitesville Kentucky man they do not name the individual but they did you know when we have a
00:40:05
situation where they're not releasing a whole lot of information they are quick to come out and say we looked at that
00:40:12
and it's simply not true it's absolutely not that person is what they state in the papers so another case of where they
00:40:22
may have or at least on the public level there were rumors of misidentification that this guy was possibly this missing
00:40:29
Whitesville Kentucky person of course these all these cases are sad that all these situations are very
00:40:35
tragic that we discuss here in the garage it's all loss of life and loss of a family member a loved one but this is
00:40:43
a little kind of extra weird angle that you don't get in other cases that we do have here
00:40:50
in this case and it's well I'll read it for you it's it's nice and short but uh sad nonetheless the headline here
00:41:00
Captain is funeral held for nameless victim and it says seven people paid their last respects to a man they didn't
00:41:07
know saying quote we memorialize one who we know not this came from the chaplain
00:41:13
that led the services for this unknown individual is a short ceremony that was attended by detectives and members of
00:41:21
law enforcement as well as members from the local sheriff's department it was also attended by the coroner and
00:41:28
representatives from the funeral home that that agreed to host this service for this unknown victim yeah and it's
00:41:36
just kind of sad you know you see these these people that that went out of their
00:41:41
way and had big hearts and heavy hearts and went to this service for an individual that they have
00:41:47
never known may never know in their lifetime it's been 32 years and he's not been identified but kudos to
00:41:55
those people that went and paid their respects to memorialize this this victim this victim of a very brutal murder very
00:42:02
violent murder yeah I'll be lucky to have seven individuals show up at at my funeral I'm gonna show up with one
00:42:10
of those uh Michael Scott fake heads on my right shoulder so that so two we'll count as two I'll sign the book as two
00:42:18
different people well maybe three people will show up well should we get into some of the possible theories because
00:42:23
there's been a lot of theories that have been discussed over the years in this Davies County case and of course A lot
00:42:32
of these theories are going to mirror that of some of the theories that were discussed in the man with no hands
00:42:38
episode I'll read off the list to you and we kind of can go through them one at a time there was a a theory that it
00:42:46
was a Satanic ritual and this is weird because this is is rumored to have been reported that way by law enforcement so
00:42:54
I don't I don't want to just throw that out there and everybody goes well we've heard that a bazillion times this might
00:42:59
be something different it might be something a little more concrete a hate crime a Revenge killing a mob killing a
00:43:08
serial killer and then I wrote down one of my own which I know you will share in
00:43:13
this idea too probably here two perpetrators two or more perpetrators uh as a theory and I base that simply off
00:43:19
of the difficulty of getting the body from however they transported it to the actual physical location where it was
00:43:26
ultimately found but let's Circle back to the top of that list there and we'll start off with the Satanic ritual that's
00:43:34
very interesting to me but I also want to throw this out there too look at the time frame look at the the time period
00:43:41
that when this body was found and with the amputation with the removal of the hands and feet it's not uncommon for
00:43:48
people to speculate that this could be something satanic but also it's 1990 right this is just shortly before West
00:43:56
Memphis Three and remember what was going on in this country at that time where there was a lot of satanic Panic
00:44:04
there was a lot of that going on that started well goes in the 80s and and throughout a lot of the 90s especially
00:44:11
when you're talking about crimes that were to be committed by young adults or teenagers I don't know that anybody's
00:44:18
expecting or suspecting young adults or teenagers to be the perpetrator or perpetrators of this crime but it's
00:44:26
always been reported that that was an angle that police were working or it that they had stated that at some point
00:44:32
again I'm just going to go back to the idea of the amputation mixed with the time frame I could see a situation where
00:44:43
the sheriff's department or somebody is saying that and then really wishing maybe a year or two or ten years later
00:44:50
that they had never said that because it was just a suspicion there was no actual
00:44:54
evidence of that right you would think that they would have found something at the scene to indicate Satanic ritual
00:45:01
which maybe they did I mean they've been tight-lipped about this this case for 32
00:45:06
years yeah could you real quickly remind me of this exact wording that he said law enforcement said about this this
00:45:14
case is we did they say weird or bizarre yeah the one officer summed it up simply
00:45:19
by saying it's bizarre the other officer stated that look this could be just another brutal murder or it could be a
00:45:26
part of something that's much more sophisticated yeah so again I find that statement those terms I find that
00:45:34
bizarre because to me it's like this is brutal this is this is gruesome this is violent these are the terms that I would
00:45:42
be using when somebody starts saying well this is bizarre or this is weird it starts making you question
00:45:49
what else was found at the scene or what other markings are on that victim's body
00:45:54
that we don't know so they one thing that we've not reported yet that is a very interesting angle in this case is
00:46:02
that seminal fluid was found on the victim and it was it did not belong to the victim so the weird angle that that
00:46:10
provides us is this weird situation of two things and this kind of goes to the hate crime Theory
00:46:17
so it's reported two different ways everywhere you go that it's suspected that this individual
00:46:25
had some type of homosexual encounter just before being killed and then other places it's reported as that he was
00:46:34
sexually assaulted and then killed which two there of course are two very very different things which also leans to the
00:46:41
idea of a hate crime right so if he if he himself were homosexual then then people were going okay well maybe this
00:46:49
was some type of hate crime but then you have the complete opposite of that that
00:46:53
would say maybe he was raped or sexually assaulted before being killed so he didn't have a choice in the matter right
00:47:00
so it's all very bizarre where you think that that one element right there if they are able to decipher if they are
00:47:08
able to figure out the very big difference between those two if they have evidence strongly
00:47:14
supporting one over the other I think that that that's stuff that should be released that stuff that
00:47:21
should have been released 30 some years ago if they could determine it back then
00:47:25
because we're talking about a completely different type of perpetrator in that regard well this this is stuff of
00:47:32
nightmares I mean yes if you're not getting up and locking your door right now you don't have a door
00:47:41
and normally when somebody would bring up some kind of Satanic ritual I I'm normally uh
00:47:48
you're gonna have to sell me pretty hard on that yeah but because we've been we've been duped by that before right
00:47:56
maybe not us personally but at least the public has has been fooled by that dozens of times yeah fool me once shame
00:48:04
on you fool me fool me never again um is it possible that some wackadus are out there praying to some
00:48:15
Golden Goat and uh and they decide that there's this ritual where we're going to take a
00:48:22
victim and rape them and torture them and then dispose of the body there's a lot of wackos out there I mean we got
00:48:29
almost 600 episodes to prove that point and the the thing with the sexual assault
00:48:35
with the the rape that also would lead me down another Avenue of potential serial killer right because and I only
00:48:44
am throwing that out there especially at that time yes and we're seeing where there's another victim that's disposed
00:48:51
of in a very similar way and around the same time period less than a year between the two so the difficult thing
00:49:01
here with these theories is that you don't have really a lot of information to point you in One Direction
00:49:07
specifically you have a few different good ideas to work off of with these different theories but nothing that will
00:49:14
point you in a very specific direction that kind of leaves us with the idea of two other possibilities here on our
00:49:21
theories list Captain one being a Revenge killing and the other being some type of mob killing yeah maybe not mob
00:49:28
but some kind of organized crime see this is what happens when you don't pay your your debts off for gambling or
00:49:37
or whatever or you you did something to upset somebody in the mob that you did something against one of their family
00:49:43
members maybe maybe this you know we don't know that the Davies County John Doe was a good person himself we've not
00:49:50
identified him yet to figure out what this guy was up to before getting killed right and we always hear in these
00:49:56
stories oh the colonel he was the nicest guy in the world nobody would ever want
00:50:00
to hurt him lies I'm telling you lies the problem the problem here is we know in the Davies County John Doe case at
00:50:07
least one individual wanted to hurt him at least one individual wanted to hurt him too so and we know there's at least
00:50:13
one individual that wants to hurt you there's a line man at least one the with the mob thing usually I'm quick to kind
00:50:21
of look away from that but when I'm when I'm comparing notes Here on the Davies County John Doe and the man with no
00:50:28
hands I really feel like there might be a little something more to that in in a little more weight that we should apply
00:50:36
to that possible Theory because it wouldn't be terribly far to transport somebody to Kentucky from the greater
00:50:44
Chicago area and there's you know there's mob ties to every big city in this country the other
00:50:51
thing too I know that I think this was brought up when we discussed the man with no hands there's people outside of
00:50:57
Kentucky don't know a whole lot about this angle but there was a a very vicious group that was active years ago
00:51:06
decades ago in that general area and they went by they were called the cornbread Mafia which sounds like a
00:51:12
funny name but yeah read up on them and you won't be laughing very long but one angle that I do want to point
00:51:21
out here this kind of reminds me let's pretend here for a minute captain that these two cases are connected okay my
00:51:31
guess here is if we went into the history of other states to find unidentified individuals we might find
00:51:39
cases that are somewhat similar to these two kind of where I'm going with this is
00:51:43
it makes me think of Richard klinsky and I'm not saying that Richard Kuklinski killed either of these individuals what
00:51:50
I'm saying simply is that watch The Iceman tapes this is this is one of the documentaries that we
00:51:58
discussed years ago you know every every year every so often we pick our favorite
00:52:02
true crime documentaries and create those lists and I think it was the first time that we discussed this Captain one
00:52:10
of the documentaries on my list was the Iceman tapes and this the Iceman tapes is originally from 1992 I believe right
00:52:19
so of course he's locked up I'm not saying that he had any involvement but the thing that you picked up on with
00:52:25
Richard Kuklinski was he's a guy that he's working in organized crime and he is the he is the Hitman well why
00:52:34
is he the Hitman because this is the type of dude that if somebody wasn't paying him to kill people he probably
00:52:40
would be doing it for fun right he's he is the psychopath in that group in that criminal element in that group he's the
00:52:48
guy that they know go to him because he doesn't have a problem offing these people and then the other thing too is
00:52:55
he talks about how he would dispose of these bodies and something very simple right keep it simple stupid one thing
00:53:04
that he pointed out there he's like look I use this method to I often use this method to kill an individual but I also
00:53:10
use this method over and over again to dispose of of the individuals well why did you continue to use that that method
00:53:17
to dispose of the individuals and he said he looked at the the interviewer like they had two heads like they're a
00:53:23
[ __ ] he says he looks at him Michael Scott because it worked it worked when I did it and it worked the first time when
00:53:31
they had trouble identifying my Victim or didn't find him for months or even years I just went okay next time I off
00:53:38
somebody I'm going to use that same method because it works one of the things that I think about in both of
00:53:46
these cases maybe they're severing the hands not to get a bread of that identifier but to make a statement
00:53:55
because back in the day if you stole something they would cut your hands off or cut a
00:54:02
hand off or chop your fingers off so maybe that act of this crime is actually more to send a message to
00:54:13
people yeah it's very interesting to me and I think you might be on to something
00:54:17
there Captain because we have other identifiers that were not they didn't go to other measures to keep this person
00:54:25
unidentified right with the man with no hands he's got extensive dental work expensive extensive dental work say that
00:54:33
three times fast I will try somebody could have could have taken that stuff removed those items
00:54:40
to make it so he couldn't be identified remove the head if you really if you were really
00:54:47
dead set on on making these individuals not identified at all there are other extremes that you could go to but
00:54:55
whoever killed and then disposed of these individuals didn't go to those other lengths for whatever
00:55:03
reason they didn't take those other precautions if you will but they did remove the hands in both
00:55:09
situations and the other thing too like I got to thinking about like well they went out of their way to remove the feet
00:55:14
of the Davies County John Doe but I don't ever remember a case of an individual being identified by their
00:55:22
feet right right I mean you're leaving his DNA because obviously his whole body the rest of his body is there the feet
00:55:31
thing really makes me wonder what was up with the feet why go out of your way to
00:55:35
remove the feet well if we go back to the original idea that a lot of these steps were taken to prevent the
00:55:42
identification of this victim well could the foot for whatever reason one or both
00:55:47
of the feet have some kind of identifier maybe this individual didn't have normal
00:55:53
looking feet maybe there was a tattoo on one of the feet maybe you know you use your imagination
00:56:00
and you can start to see a situation where that might become important but it doesn't appear to have been important in
00:56:07
the man with no hands case that took place in 1989. if you're a betting man and I I know you
00:56:16
like to bet every now and then uh on the horse I like when people say that uh if
00:56:20
you're a betting well I have you happen to be talking to a betting man so so I am a betting man but it won't say it's a
00:56:27
a problem it's only a problem when you lose if you're a betting man would you say
00:56:33
that these again the two weeks in a row it's funny how this stuff works last week we're
00:56:40
talking about the Boardman murder cases and if those were connected uh similar time periods similar area
00:56:47
some similar victimology here the victimology seems different but do you lean towards them being connected
00:56:57
or or not connected I actually lean towards them being connected and usually I and I didn't go into it that way right
00:57:05
I didn't go into looking for reasons to connect these and I'm going to say straight up too
00:57:11
that I didn't find anything that that says to me 100 that they are in fact connected but it just seems a little
00:57:19
convenient a little too convenient to me that yeah the victimology's weird with the
00:57:25
Davies County John Doe we have so little information and again reported different
00:57:30
ways that I don't believe that that allows us to really hone in on one particular
00:57:37
thing here to say that I think the victimology is similar or dissimilar because with the man with no hands
00:57:46
according to the vi cap alert from the FBI his approximate age is 25. well that certainly fits within the age range of
00:57:56
our Davies County John Doe where we're seeing the current information has him listed at age 25 to approximately 40. I
00:58:05
have a difficult time with why that that range is so that they're so so many years applied to how old this guy could
00:58:15
possibly be they're both found nude they're both found with no hands they're both found within a year of one another
00:58:21
in the same state of Kentucky and it for me there's just too many similarities for me to
00:58:29
to get past it right if again you're asking me to wager on something we don't have a lot of information on
00:58:37
I guess if I had to go gut feeling here I'm guessing that they would be I would lean toward them being
00:58:44
connected in some form and it doesn't have to be commanded by the same perpetrator especially if we're talking
00:58:49
about some type of mob hit or some type of criminal group you know I I had really suspected a drug
00:58:59
connection with the man with no hands and then with the Davies County John Doe I just feel like I don't know enough
00:59:06
about who this person could have been to even hypothesize what led to this if I had to go with my
00:59:15
gut feeling um gut and butt feeling I would say connected it's it's eight months between the discovery of two of
00:59:25
these bodies and I know yes it's 140 miles away so there's a big distance there but eight eight months is tough to
00:59:33
shake I wasn't lean so much of a mob hit but to me it kind of seems serial killer
00:59:39
in the sense of well I put one victim here and then I and then I dump another victim somewhere else and I think if we
00:59:51
dove in deeper to that area probably let's say a 300 mile radius to see if there's any other similar cases
01:00:01
those individuals might have already been identified but to see if there's anything similar
01:00:08
um severing of the hands or severing of the feet or the way in which the bodies were dumped
01:00:15
with the man with no hands case I know that a lot of the listeners got on the blog and
01:00:21
stated on there that that one hypothesis they would have is that maybe he was an
01:00:28
undocumented worker someone that we just don't have right information of and that's why he remains so difficult to
01:00:37
identify to this day his ethnic background would have been based off of I think this was parabon
01:00:44
that came out with the man with no hands but some agency has stated that he's probably Eastern European maybe Middle
01:00:55
Eastern descent for the man with no hands I've not seen any of that speculation or information in the Davies
01:01:03
County John Doe but where I can offer a little bit of a little little light at the end of the tunnel for both of these
01:01:10
cases is we know one thing with the man with no hands obviously they have his DNA they're working that they're trying
01:01:17
to figure out if they can identify him using the DNA I seen that last year it was reported that the DNA doe network
01:01:26
was actively working on the man with no hands case it was one of I think five or
01:01:31
six that they were discussing on the news at the time and he was one that they were actively looking into the
01:01:39
basic report that they offered at that time was that we are getting closer to identifying him we have not been able to
01:01:46
get a match to an individual and unfortunately in his case we've not been able to get a match that's close to an
01:01:53
individual meaning they've not matched up with a parent or a sibling they said that they're they're basically
01:02:00
at the the speed bump of we can get we feel like we're getting to distant cousin level with the man with
01:02:10
no hands but nothing close enough that we have any idea of of possibly identifying him or narrowing it down to
01:02:17
a few individuals now with the Davies County John Doe with our case for this week
01:02:25
the light at the end of the tunnel with him is twofold you have not just your victim DNA like
01:02:33
we have in the man with no hands case Brian we have potential suspect DNA and again that's why part of me wants to
01:02:41
go can we clear this up if we do know maybe they don't know and maybe that's why you don't want to release this
01:02:47
information if you don't know it'd be irresponsible but if they do know if they had some way of determining this
01:02:52
sexual assault versus consensual well if especially if it's sexual assault then that changes everything for
01:03:00
me because now that goes from a possible you know friendship or Romance with this other DNA that they have with
01:03:09
the Davies County or it's suspect DNA and so that's the light at the end of the tunnel in the Davies case that one
01:03:18
we could identify this individual possibly we have the science to do it we're working on it we know that they're
01:03:24
actively working it because they misidentified him and then cleared it up so we know that it's been
01:03:30
active at time periods throughout the last 32 years it's a case that's still on the
01:03:36
minds of Kentucky State Police they're probably still doing work on it and so we could have a situation very
01:03:44
soon where either they identify one the victim himself or the suspect in his case
01:03:55
and either way is a huge leap when they were when they were scratching the ground looking for breadcrumbs before
01:04:03
identifying this individual or the DNA that could lead to the suspect huge leap huge break in the case either way
01:04:13
foreign [Music] there is a tip line a tip phone number for the Kentucky State Police if anybody
01:04:42
has any information in the Davies County John Doe case or the Grant County John Doe case the one that we were referring
01:04:51
to as the man with no hands you can use this number for either of those cases and again this will take you to the
01:04:57
Kentucky State Police the number is 1-800-222-55555 we just like your smell we like your
01:05:10
Musk make sure you tell a friend we want their musk to be in the garage as well Colonel do we have any recommended
01:05:16
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website truecrimegarage.com another thing you can find at the website is a link to off the Record that's our bonus
01:06:01
show we do case updates we get a little silly up here in the garage it's a great
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which is tons of content for five dollars a month you can find that at truecrime garage.com until next week be
01:06:25
good be kind and don't let it thank you