00:00:07
by an unspeakable act. The apocalypse would occur soon. More white supremacist groups, more
00:00:14
anti-government groups. David Caresh, Ruby Ridge siege, Timothy McVey, more than 80 people dead. Bombed
00:00:25
a federal building in Oklahoma City. Eight by an unspeakable act, there is so little hope left. Hope
00:00:35
I'm saying that when I get through writing these and they're given to my attorney and my attorney hands them
00:00:41
over, what's the two uh theologians name? Uh, Philip Arnold. Philip Arnold and Jim Taber, which have shown that
00:00:49
they have a sincere interest in these things. You see, then I can spend all my time in jail and people go in ask me all
00:00:56
the stupid questions they want because they're not going to ask me about the SE. They're going to say, "Uh, do you
00:01:01
molest young ladies? Uh, have you eaten babies? Do you sacrifice people? Uh, do you make automatic weapons? Uh, do you
00:01:07
have bombs?" That's what they're going to be interested in. Sincerely, that's why you need to get it done before you
00:01:12
leave there. Then that's why I'm going to complete it. Because you see, you know as well as I do that people in this
00:01:18
world, they want something dramatic and sensational. They don't want to have to sit. No one's going to sit there and let
00:01:25
me sit there in front of a camera and read Psalms 40 to them to prove the first seal. Dick, it's a real world. And
00:01:33
that's why I'm sympathetic with your position. I realize you're frustrated and I agree with you. I'm not
00:01:38
frustrated. I went home and I'm I'm in fact I'm no longer frustrated. I never was frustrated. Did you take a shower
00:01:43
for me? Well, yeah. I took a couple of them for you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Now, listen. Let's get back to the
00:01:49
point at hand. This uh you know, the writing of the seals. Okay. You've got to do that from in there, and it's going
00:01:54
to take you x amount of time. But just tell me this, David. Are you saying that when you finish that manuscript, then
00:02:01
I'm not bound any longer. But see, that doesn't answer the question. I'll be out. Yes, definitely. I know you'll be
00:02:07
out, but that could I couldn't Excuse me. I've got a cold. That could mean a lot of things, David. That could mean
00:02:14
I'll be in jeopardy in the jail house. You can come down there and feed anybody. No, I know. I know at some
00:02:19
point in time that's true. But I'm I'm getting from you. I'm asking you that when that is finished, are you then
00:02:25
telling me that you are coming out uh the next day or 2 hours after you send that out? Well, when I when I bring
00:02:33
it out, see, my attorney is going to get the get you the copy, right? Okay. And as soon as he hands it over to the
00:02:42
scholars, the theologians, right, that's when he's going to come back and that's
00:02:47
when I'm going to go out with him because he said point blank that, you know, one of the guarantees of me
00:02:52
arriving down there is that he's going to go with me. [Music] Sunday, February 28th,
00:03:12
1993. Agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are attempting to execute warrants against David Caresh in
00:03:20
the Branch Devidian compound located in or near Waco, Texas. This was supposed to be an operation that they wanted to
00:03:30
include the media. And spoiler alert, it does it goes horribly wrong. At 9:00 a.m., Waco news reporters arrive near
00:03:40
the compound. Police radio communication indicates authorities may be preparing for a raid. So, they actually
00:03:50
notified the news in advance. The media is on the scene in a small capacity at 9:00 a.m. Now at 9:55 a.m.
00:04:04
the ATF agents move in on the compound and things do not go well right from the get-go. A gun fight, a gun
00:04:17
battle begins at this time and lasts for approximately 20 minutes. They have to go into cleanup mode and and right away
00:04:27
because negotiations begin shortly after 10 p.m. about 10:15 10:20 to start moving the injured people
00:04:36
from the gun battle and it's going to be become a he said she said who shot first
00:04:42
we don't know. Yeah. And we saw the same thing here with Ruby Ridge. You have two
00:04:47
sides all heavily armed. And to be frank with everyone, I've looked at both of these scenarios, Ruby Ridge and Waco,
00:04:56
dozens of times. It doesn't really seem to me like anybody had a great idea of what they were going to be doing and how
00:05:04
to do it. And so you get a bunch of people that are heavily armed and scared out of their wits. Who knows? It's it
00:05:12
gets really difficult to say, especially when we have this number of people on both sides at Waco, who did what first,
00:05:19
who cast the first stone. And a lot of times you have to wonder, could you be in a situation where it's a nervous
00:05:28
fire? Somebody hears something and reacts with nervous gunfire that leads to everybody shooting at everybody. A
00:05:38
little after 12 noon, we get a hospital helicopters that are flying away from the compound. And inside these
00:05:47
helicopters, Captain, we have injured federal agents. By 100 p.m. Remember, keep in mind, they their attempt to go
00:05:57
into the compound started at 5 minutes to 10 a.m. We're roughly 3 hours later. We have a spokesperson at the Waco
00:06:06
hospital confirming the death of an ATF officer by 1 p.m. So, this is the first casualty or the first listed casualty in
00:06:17
these news reports of the Waco siege standoff as it is on day number one. By 5:00 p p.m. we have an ATF spokesperson
00:06:29
who is saying that gunfire continued sporadically throughout the afternoon. At 7:30 p.m. Vernon Howell or as we know
00:06:39
him, David Caresh is interviewed by CNN. At 8:15, ATF spokesperson says negotiations continue
00:06:50
with they're referring to them as cult members to the media at this time. And Caresh then goes for about 20 minutes in
00:07:01
a talk with KRLD Radio, which is located in Dallas, Texas. And during this 20 minute talk with radio
00:07:11
DJ, he's describing his beliefs, what the branch devidians believe, or at least what he's telling them that his
00:07:18
followers believe and saying that he he David Caresh is the most seriously wounded member of the branch devidians
00:07:27
at that time. We would ultimately learn here, Captain, the ATF agents Conway Leblau, Todd
00:07:35
Mcahan, Robert Williams, and Steven Willis all were killed. On March 1, in the early morning hours, we have acting
00:07:46
attorney general Stuart Gerson. He gives an update to President Bill Clinton who
00:07:53
implicitly endorses a negotiation. Right. Let's talk through this to create a solution, a nonviolent solution.
00:08:02
Clinton is asking his cabinet members and his staff to keep him a breast to the situation, keep him up to speed. So,
00:08:12
negotiations will continue on this day. Over the course of the day, we do get 10
00:08:18
children that are sent out of the compound. the FBI takes control with a fully functioning command post that they
00:08:27
set up. So notice that we've we've morphed right away from ATF into FBI, right? Because the ATF was attempting to
00:08:36
conduct those search warrants and execute those search warrants. Well, now we have people who have been killed. So
00:08:43
ultimately, the FBI is the group that's going to be investigating the the the shooting deaths and now starting to take
00:08:51
control over the situation. Well, in David Caresh's compound, it it's a large one and the building looks odd, right?
00:09:01
Yes. I mean, it's it seems very wonky like like every 6 months, let's just add another room on onto this compound, but
00:09:09
across the street was abandoned building. So, I think that's where initially the ATF set up and now
00:09:17
basically because the FBI is getting involved, we basically have a whole military compound being set up directly
00:09:26
across from David Caresh's compound. And I God bless you for using the word wonky
00:09:32
because that was my that was the exact word that came and popped into my brain when I when I'm looking over the layout
00:09:40
of the compound. But but to paint a very basic picture for everyone, maybe you're
00:09:47
too young and you don't recall seeing the photographs in in the the newspapers or seeing news coverage of this horrific
00:09:56
event. But it it essentially looks like a fortress, right? Like a Yeah. A fortress that was built by Boy Scouts
00:10:05
surrounded by a military operation is really what it kind of Yeah. It looks like a suburban fortress because it's,
00:10:13
you know, the vinyl sighting and and we have a lot of things at play here. We have a big mistake by the ATF.
00:10:22
See, a lot of people don't talk about how Dave Caresh had um contracts with some of the local schools where he would
00:10:30
take care of their yards, mow and and do other such chores. They had other options to serve these search warrants.
00:10:37
And they could have done it where not everybody in the compound was involved or by basically set up some kind of
00:10:45
military operation to serve these search warrants. But they chose not to. gunfire
00:10:51
happens. But you also have to remember we also have members of this quote unquote cult that are now in contact
00:10:59
with the um ATF and and the FBI. And so they're giving them some kind of insight to who David Caresh is, how he
00:11:10
thinks, how the followers think, uh what is involved with this compound, what where the weapons could be. And I mean,
00:11:18
this is just uh a bad situation escalating quicker and quicker. And the captain's right in full review of
00:11:25
everything here. If the I almost believe if they would have got Dave Caresh when
00:11:32
he was already outside of those four walls, pick him up on the warrants or at least bring him in for questioning and
00:11:41
then execute the search without him present. I have to believe this would have went down an entirely different way
00:11:49
because I don't who I mean they could have had a contingency plan the Dividians but as you will see throughout
00:11:56
the course of this standoff is not only is Caresh the leader but at times the the Devidians themselves seem to be
00:12:07
hesitant to make any decisions of their own without his leadership. the compound, the fortress or or the fort as
00:12:16
we called it is the captain's exactly right. Wonky is a great description. It's like a
00:12:22
patchwork quilt where they just kept adding on wings and hallways and additional rooms. So, it's really kind
00:12:30
of a labyrinth within those walls. And near the center of the structure is a concrete room which is used sort of as a
00:12:43
storage area for their firearms and and their food rations, but also will act as
00:12:51
a bunker for portions of especially the portions that involve gunfire of this standoff. Now, the walls themselves of
00:13:00
the compound are I mean, this thing was was basically built out of recycled lumber and scrap wood and they have the
00:13:11
siding there, but it's uh it I mean, it's built by human hands and and it does not look like your house or mine.
00:13:20
And and I'm talking to the listeners there. Unless you live in a fort out in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't look
00:13:26
like your house. So, we do get 10 children that are sent out of the compound. So, that that's some progress
00:13:32
here. And by 5:00 p.m., the FBI has taken control. They set up their command post. Caresh is reportedly extremely
00:13:40
agitated, uh, as he one would expect him to be. The FBI agents deploy armored vehicles surrounding basically
00:13:51
surrounding the compound's perimeter and they're they're kind of moving them closer and closer and he becomes David
00:13:59
Caresh becomes extremely agitated when the phone line is cut. So they cut the phone line. He's still able, the
00:14:06
Devidians are still able to have outside communication, but that's only to the negotiators at this point. And the
00:14:15
people doing the negotiating for law enforcement will be the FBI. And at least twice during this day, it's
00:14:23
reported that David Caresh himself says to negotiators that suicide is not being
00:14:29
contemplated by him or the group. So now we go to Tuesday, March 2nd. In the early morning hours, David Kesh makes a
00:14:37
1-hour audio tape of his religious teachings, promising to surrender upon the national broadcast of this tape,
00:14:46
this cassette tape. At 1:30 p.m., the tape is broadcast over the Christian Broadcasting Network. Near 6:00 p.m.
00:14:54
that evening, the word is relayed to negotiations from David Caresh that God has spoken to him and has told him to
00:15:03
wait. So, initially saying we will come out, we will surrender, but then later, hours later, changing that to I've been
00:15:10
instructed by God and we are we're in a holding pattern right now. Well, yeah. And I and I'm not trying to argue cuz
00:15:18
this is a small detail. This case has been covered so much that it's really hard to get every detail I believe
00:15:28
correct because I don't know if we know the details in some of these documentaries that are put together or
00:15:35
these TV series there. There's the Waco TV series which is very good on Paramount which is brilliant. Yeah.
00:15:44
And I I believe they did a follow-up Waco aftermath, which I thought was incredibly well done as as well. Yeah,
00:15:50
it's it's almost like uh season 1 and season two, but they get some of the details wrong here. I think what the the
00:15:58
weight that's happening here is he's supposed to surrender, but then he tells the FBI, "Wait, I don't know if I'm
00:16:07
going to surrender. I have to wait. I need to pray on this." So it's not that God is telling him to wait. He's waiting
00:16:15
for God to tell him what's what is his next move. Yes. And and that is part of it. But again, the information I have is
00:16:23
that that God he says claims that God spoke to him, told him to wait and and what we will see is and the captain's
00:16:30
exactly right. It's a small detail. Who knows who's exactly right here, but what
00:16:34
we will see is throughout this is a standoff that's going to last days and weeks. And throughout the remainder of
00:16:42
the standoff is when we will get that communication from Caresh that's saying I, you know, I'm waiting instruction
00:16:48
from God. I haven't heard anything yet. So, we're still in this holding pattern.
00:16:52
When we get the Wednesday the 3, the FBI tells the Devidians that there. So, there's some elderly people that are
00:17:03
inside the compound and they announced that murder charges for the the the killed ATF agents will that the elderly
00:17:14
people will not face the murder charges. And this is this is got to be considered
00:17:22
or looked at as a tactical way of encouraging them to send out some of the old folks, right? like
00:17:30
go ahead and send them out. we're not charging them with murder here in in this situation because that's one thing
00:17:37
that gets lost in the sauce here when when we talk about I I this is something I was trying to sort out in my own head
00:17:45
and with my own emotions in the past week or so is if I'm sitting inside that compound as a follower knowing that you
00:17:54
know what I could even if the claim is true you know Caresh in in the higherups with the
00:18:03
Devidians would say throughout a lot of this that they that the the followers are allowed to leave. Now, that's up for
00:18:10
debate. You know, that's something that has certainly been debated for for decades now. But that has always been
00:18:15
their statement that they are allowed to leave. They don't want to leave. Their their truth is here. They fear God more
00:18:22
than they fear man. They fear God more than they fear the government or any government entity agency. But trying to
00:18:31
sort this out of going, "Okay, I'm a dude sitting in this compound. ATF agents have been killed in active
00:18:39
duty. I I could stay or I could get up and leave if if what Caresh and and others are saying is true. I could get
00:18:49
up and leave whenever I want. But when I get beyond the walls of this compound, I'm likely facing murder charges. And oh
00:18:58
by the way, it through the course of me walking out the front door, I may get shot to death by those same by those
00:19:06
fellow agents of those fallen agents. Yeah. And if things get go from bad to worse and they don't have anybody else
00:19:13
to pin these ATF agent murders on, you know, I might be going to prison and somebody might be touching my booty
00:19:20
hole. Speaking with negotiators, David Caresh accounts for his failure to surrender as agreed by saying he's
00:19:28
dealing now with his father and not with your bureaucratic system of government.
00:19:33
And he delivers various rambling sermons focusing on such biblical matters as unlocking the seven seals and
00:19:42
interpreting God's intentions about the end of the world. In a late evening conversation, he is expressing how angry
00:19:51
he is about the armored vehicles that are have surrounded the compound and are moving about. Yeah. But this is all
00:19:58
going to work into his benefit because when you have somebody telling you, I'm a prophet and I'm the chosen one. Well,
00:20:05
the biggest thing is belief. And so if some of your members cuz I I think another thing that's not talked about
00:20:13
that often is a lot of people gave up all their possessions and and all their money. And so even if they disagreed
00:20:22
with what was happening with inside their compound, it wasn't just like they could just walk out of there and and
00:20:29
catch a flight to Hawaii to get away. They would have to leave everything. So when this again but again not just leave
00:20:38
everything face murder charges and you know that you if you're an adult you're going to be facing murder charges
00:20:44
because the FBI went out of their way to explain to you all those two elderly women that you got in there. We're not
00:20:50
going to charge them with murder. That's I meant before we are charging everybody
00:20:55
else with with murder. But what I'm saying is even before the siege, okay? You know, so when people go, well, as
00:21:02
David's teachings go from peaceful and and loving and more spiritual and and and good and and more religious-based to
00:21:14
I'm a prophet and abusive and these three to fourhour long sermon rants where he wouldn't let people go to the
00:21:22
bathroom and people weren't allowed to fall asleep and they they had nowhere to go. But once this siege happens and all
00:21:30
this stuff is happening around you, helicopters and tanks and ATF agents and and and and armor basically, and this is
00:21:40
all the stuff that he's been telling you is going to happen. You're seeing it play out. So then there, you know, what
00:21:47
a lot of his followers talked about or a couple of the ones that have survived said there was a sense within the
00:21:54
compound of like, "Oh [ __ ] this guy's been right the whole time. He's been telling us this and now we're seeing
00:22:01
it." And so because a lot of religion is believing in something that you can't see or you can't prove. But when when
00:22:09
you have that belief anyways, you have that faith anyways and now you're seeing it play out in front of your eyes, the
00:22:15
the belief becomes even stronger. The faith becomes even stronger within inside the the followers to to David
00:22:22
Kesh. Well, and the thing too is yeah, like you said, it's this is playing out in front of their very eyes and and on
00:22:29
more than one occasion, we've seen we know from the reports that we reviewed in the first part of our Waco coverage
00:22:37
is that we're told things, fantastical ideas and prophecies by Mr. David Caresh prior to this, you know, that he had he
00:22:47
had impregnated as a 67 68 year old woman that that the baby would be the chosen one. It's some form of it's a
00:22:55
miracle baby and that the uh other portions of you know God's will that the the the damage the arson that was done
00:23:05
to to our property prior this was a judgment by God and a warning from God. So they've they've experienced these
00:23:14
prophecies in the past and as you said, Captain, which is spoton, this is one that's playing out very similarly to how
00:23:25
he's described it months and years prior to to what's going on in 1993. Now, on this day at the end,
00:23:36
remember he's he's very upset that they're moving around these armored vehicles late in the evening. And so,
00:23:43
this is this is a threat to the FBI from David Caresh. He tells them that, you know, what you guys are doing is
00:23:54
terrible. you you know we're the victims here and you guys you you agents out there
00:24:01
you FBI agents are going to have to be the ones you will be the ones that will be looking at the pictures of the little
00:24:08
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[Music] All right, we are back. Cheers, mates. Cheers to you, Colonel. Cheers to you,
00:25:54
Captain. This brings us to Friday, March 5th. We do get somebody else that's able
00:26:00
to leave the compound here. We get 9-year-old Heather Jones. She leaves, but she's wearing a note that is
00:26:08
pinned to her jacket. The note was written by her mother, or at least the reports state that the mother wrote the
00:26:15
note, and the note says once the children are out, the adults will die. The FBI concludes that the Devidians
00:26:24
have one year have a a full one-year supply of food, including abundant military rations. Well, their own
00:26:33
running water system and they are set up to be held up inside that compound for an extended period of time. But the note
00:26:44
pinned to the poor child or at least she was lucky enough to get out would imply
00:26:50
that there's there could be massive death here no matter how this thing shakes out. And the reports at this time too
00:26:58
are that Caresh continues preaching but also threatening violence. The FBI at this point, they got the helicopters.
00:27:06
They're shining the lights on them at night. They're playing music at all hours. They're the the one that was
00:27:14
disturbing to me was one of the survivors were saying it sounded like they were playing audio tape of like
00:27:22
rabbits being slaughtered. slaughtered and these are like war tactics and I think that's why I mean the initial
00:27:33
you're you're bringing basically an army to serve a warrant in in a situation that you didn't have to
00:27:43
serve him in in the first place. I mean it just seems like there was bad decisions after bad decisions and it
00:27:51
it's on both parties. There's bad decisions happening and and torturous, horrible decisions being made by law
00:27:59
enforcement, but also torturous and horrible decisions being made by the individuals in this uh well, not just
00:28:08
David, but other individuals within this religious group. And it's like we said with Ruby Ridge, when nobody's right,
00:28:16
everybody's wrong. And this this is more of that sadly. Now, the what what was right the the the few things that did go
00:28:25
right here is regardless if we agree of any of the tactics by law enforcement and the
00:28:34
negotiators, regardless if we agree with Caresh and any of his decision making on
00:28:41
his side, one thing that I the only thing that I really truly see that is right by both parties is the FBI
00:28:49
negotiators are continually asking Caresh to send people out and we do at least to up to this point
00:28:59
in our timeline we have seen some people sent out. So that's the only good the only smart decisions that really seem to
00:29:09
be being made here. Now on Sunday the 7th, March 7th, they're continuing their negotiations with Kesh. The talks
00:29:19
basically are going round and round in circles. The FBI is refusing to deliver milk to the compound and they say,
00:29:30
"Look, we're you guys are requesting milk. We're not bring" and they're saying, "We need it for the children,
00:29:35
especially the young ones." Unfortunately, they are some very young kids, one two years old kids inside this
00:29:44
structure. And so they're saying, "We need milk for the children." FBI is saying, "We're not bringing you that
00:29:49
unless you release some more people." And Caresh is saying, "Look, all of the children that remain inside of the
00:29:56
compound are my biological descendants." On March 8th, Caresh, it's reported that
00:30:03
his wounds, remember, he was wounded in the gunfire. Yeah. He was shot in his hand, right? And his correct abdomen.
00:30:12
Yeah. And so he it's reported that he is healing well. and not just well better and better and above what was expected
00:30:22
at the time when he became injured. Of course he he's he's so manly he can impregnate an elderly woman.
00:30:32
Of course he's going to heal like Wolverine. Yeah, the FBI does deliver six gallons of milk this day. This is
00:30:40
just the day after saying you we're not going going to unless you release more people. They didn't release anybody, but
00:30:45
a videotape of the children inside the compound was sent out by the Devidians to law enforcement.
00:30:54
Negotiators say that the tape upon review there is concern that if the the tape is released to the media that
00:31:04
Caresh may gain a lot of sympathy. Yeah. Well, what David Kresh was doing, which
00:31:10
I think was smart, is he was filming his followers to to say, "Let's introduce the world to the followers and what they
00:31:22
believe and who they are as people." And so, if this gets out to the world, then
00:31:28
people will not see these individuals as crazy cult members, but they'll see them
00:31:33
as actual humans and families. Yeah. And nobody wants children to be involved in
00:31:39
this. No, but but also nobody wants a 14-year-old to be married to a cult leader or Yes. or or having babies with
00:31:50
the the cult leader. And right, you know, I I think if you look up David Caresh, I believe that it's that it is
00:31:57
said that he fathered 16 children. We know of the one child that he had no involvement with because the mom wanted
00:32:04
nothing to do with him, but so he had 15 kids on top of that. And I don't know why all these guys that want to be cult
00:32:11
leaders also play music. And if you look at like a Charles Manson, if you ever hear a recording of
00:32:18
him, it's questionable on what talent level he has. But I I do have to say I think out of all the crazy cult leaders,
00:32:28
Dave Crush uh might uh hold the top spot as far as guitar talent. And he had a good singing voice.
00:32:36
And that's the uh and that's enough praising the wacko, the top 20 cult leader Casey Kasem Countdown. Yes, we
00:32:47
have David Caresh sits at the top. On Tuesday, March 9th, they cut off the electricity to the compound. Caresh says
00:32:54
he will not negotiate further until the power is restored. They do restore the power. And we get reports here at this
00:33:03
time that the hostage release team for the law enforcement, they're reporting that they are seeing weapons in the
00:33:11
windows of the compound and that firing ports were being cut. So what they did was they covered up the windows for
00:33:18
their own protection because they were taking on gunfire with these large pieces of plywood. Well, on this day,
00:33:26
it's reported again by law enforcement that they are seeing the Devidians cut holes in the plywood, which is an
00:33:36
implication that they attend that they intend to use those as firing ports for their long guns, their rifles, and what
00:33:44
have you. Uh the following day, electricity is temporarily cut off again and there is about four and a half
00:33:53
hours of negotiation but no progress. On Friday the 12th, Janet Reno, who has is a large name in this
00:34:02
story, but it was interesting to learn that she was not I didn't recall this. I mean, you and I were little boys when
00:34:09
this went down. I didn't recall this part of it. I recalled her being a big part of the story, but I didn't know
00:34:15
that she wasn't the attorney general when the standoff started. So, she's sworn in on March
00:34:22
12th and actually takes over. The FBI orders all electricity to be cut off for good because the negotiators wanted
00:34:32
those inside the compound to experience the same wet and cold conditions at night that the tactical personnel was
00:34:39
experiencing outside of the compound. And they also say that they they wanted the just part of that justification,
00:34:47
Captain was cutting the power. It it's going to be very cold at night. It's March. They wanted maximum effect on the
00:34:56
Dividians to be uncomfortable. They because if if they truly were allowed to leave as Caresh is telling them, they're
00:35:04
trying to give good reason for these followers to get up and leave if that's the truth. But they also want to make a
00:35:12
statement here, right? cutting off the power was also making a statement designed to challenge David Caresh's
00:35:20
control of the situation. And and again, the tough thing too is they have former members and former leaders.
00:35:29
They have his former right-hand man basically begging them from the beginning. You you you are playing into
00:35:38
his hands because this is what he's been preaching. So, and I couldn't imagine being one of his followers. And
00:35:47
if you have any doubt about him, I think that doubt goes away when the siege starts.
00:35:56
And I think every day for a lot of these followers, it became stronger. And we do
00:36:03
have, you know, interviews of some of the surviving members that were like, yeah, at first we were afraid, but then
00:36:10
there became this strength of, well, what he's telling us is true. And then people weren't even
00:36:17
afraid to die because their leader has been telling them this is how it's going to go down. And now it's going down this
00:36:25
way. So now we believe what he's saying even more. And he's saying, "Hey, there's a place in the kingdom of heaven
00:36:31
for you because of all this." Of course, because he with these apocalyptic beliefs, they almost all end in a battle
00:36:41
between good and evil. Yeah. And so, of course, you're going to go to heaven because you were fighting for the good
00:36:48
side. You You didn't bow down to evil. On Saturday, March 13, of course, we got the people inside. They're cold. They're
00:36:56
freezing. They have no electricity. The FBI notifies David Caresh that his mother has retained two attorneys on his
00:37:05
behalf to represent him. So, Mr. Caresh, you have legal representation at this time. The following day at
00:37:13
nightfall, the FBI begins to illuminate the compound with bright lights. This is
00:37:20
this is as as the FBI would tell us that this is supposed to have a two-pronged effect. One to disrupt the sleep of the
00:37:29
persons inside of the compound putting additional pressure and stress on them, but two to increase the safety of their
00:37:38
outside teams of the hostage release teams. If anybody that's been in a situation like this where you are in the
00:37:44
dark and there are bright lights that surround you, anything beyond those bright lights, you you usually can't see
00:37:52
any of that. So, effectively, it's creating a wall of light for the agents to hide behind. On Monday, March 15th,
00:38:01
the FBI establishes a modified negotiation strategy, continuing to insist on peaceful resolution, but
00:38:09
refusing to listen to any more of what they are referring to as Bible babble. On Thursday the 18th, the FBI
00:38:18
broadcasts a message to those in the compound over a loud speaker saying that they will be treated fairly if they come
00:38:27
out. Nobody nobody comes out. But on the 19th, the FBI I I guess this is an attempt to address some of the
00:38:35
Devidian's concerns about the the legal matters. The FBI delivers to the compound legal documents and letters
00:38:44
from Caresh's attorneys and some other items. And Caresh says that he is ready to come out and face the music. Two
00:38:54
Devidians. This is Brad Branch and Kevin Whitecliffe. They come out of the compound. The next day, Rita Riddle
00:39:03
comes out of the compound. So, we got three more people that have been released. And then on Sunday, March
00:39:10
21st, we get Victorine Hollingsworth and Anita Richards exit the compound. Glattis Opman, Sheila Martin, James
00:39:19
Lton, and Oilia Santoya come out of the compound as well. In the evening hours, the FBI
00:39:27
begins playing very loud music, including Tibetan chants over the loudspeaker. This is at some point, it
00:39:33
morphs into what the captain said about the the rabbits being slaughtered, which
00:39:37
is sounds horrific. Well, I could be wrong, but some of these individuals are coming out on their own. And some of
00:39:44
them are being released, but the the that small group that you just talked about, I think they were actually
00:39:50
released by David to be like talking heads. Hey, we're going to release you so then you can talk to law enforcement
00:39:59
directly and you can be kind of um the talking heads for our group. On Tuesday, March 23rd, at 10:00 a.m., a individual
00:40:09
named Living Stone Fagan leaves the compound. This is going to be the last one during the standoff to leave the
00:40:17
compound. And we have Assistant US Attorney William Johnston of Waco writes a letter to Janet Reno complaining about
00:40:25
the FBI's handling of the scene, especially the moving of the vehicles around the compound. So, he's at the
00:40:32
local level and he's saying, "Look, I don't really like what I see or how the FBI's conducting themselves at the
00:40:39
scene." At 10 p.m., the FBI shines flood lights on the compound and plays over the loudspeakers tapes of of previous
00:40:47
negotiations. And they're now they're also playing messages from those who had exited the compound. On Wednesday the
00:40:55
24th, the FBI, they're back to their tactics of playing Tibetan chants, Christmas music, and and all kinds of
00:41:03
shenanigans. The Devidians refuse to talk. At the daily press briefing, the FBI escalates its verbal assault against
00:41:12
David Caresh, calling him a liar and a coward. The next day, there's an FBI ultimatum. 10 to 20 people must leave by
00:41:21
4 p.m. or some action will be taken. At 4 p.m., armored vehicles move into the compound and remove uh motorcycles and
00:41:30
golf carts and go-karts that belong to the Devidians. When they cut the electricity, it was cold. We know they
00:41:38
were it was cold because the Devidians were complaining that they were freezing inside. And we already talked about how
00:41:43
this structure was put together and how it was constructed. And so it's not this
00:41:49
structure that's built to to keep people warm inside of there. So what they were
00:41:54
doing with these these hay bales, they the bales of hay, they were stacking them along the the window uh sorry along
00:42:03
the walls inside almost creating like a insulation, right, to to help them keep warm. And then the other part of this
00:42:13
too is look, David Caresh, and I'm I'm not I I'm not going out of my way to throw him any compliments here, but he
00:42:20
was not a dumb guy. He was probably pretty brilliant. Uh maybe brilliantly wrong, but but brilliant.
00:42:29
He was evil genius in a sense. Yeah, he he was quite intelligent. But then I also wonder here, Captain, are we at
00:42:37
this point where this dude is so far gone that on some level does he you you talk about, well, if this goes good, how
00:42:45
how do I come out of this? If this goes bad, how do we come out of this? I have to wonder too if at this point is this
00:42:52
dude so far gone that he he may believe that he's right that that he is in the right and doing the right thing and
00:43:00
doing what's in the best interest of him and his group all at the same time. Well, again, because you have these
00:43:07
followers, I mean, he's taking some of his followers children as his wives and they're allowing it. So yeah, the more
00:43:19
you're as his church wives. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what do you call that? Um, he's living in an echo chamber. So the echo
00:43:28
chamber is just telling him, reinforcing him for years that he is right, for years that he is the prophet for years.
00:43:38
I mean, when these individuals, whether it's because of the abuse or because they have issues themselves, to be able
00:43:45
to stand up in a in a group of people and have them listen to you with no bathroom breaks or anything for hours
00:43:53
upon hours. And a lot of these individuals just hanging on to every word he says and every belief he has and
00:44:01
pinching their pee pees so they don't wet themselves, right? like a little boy. God said pinch your pee, you know. And I
00:44:11
would just I would let it flow and just water myself and if anybody looks at me with a side eye, I just it was God's
00:44:20
will. The you know, Mr. Caresh wanted me to listen to his teachings and it was God's will. I was bound to wet myself at
00:44:29
some point. Yeah. Jesus turned water into wine. I'm turning water into PP. I'm turning my jeans into stank. Um the
00:44:39
So this is right around the time where I believe that they they start remember they started using the armored vehicle
00:44:47
to tear down vehicles to tear down some of the fencing that was around the the compound. Yeah. And and also putting
00:44:54
these vehicles very close to the compound itself. And I think this is when they're making this decision that
00:45:01
this is not going to end well. period. And maybe we're going to be the ones to end it. Well, and this has got
00:45:08
to make the guys, the people inside, the families inside terrified. And of course, uh, Caresh at this point is is
00:45:16
reminding the FBI, hey, I'm still I we have no intentions of dying in here, and I'm still waiting for the word of God,
00:45:25
waiting for word from God as to what we are to be doing. Now, over the course of
00:45:31
a couple days, David Caresh and one of the attorneys that his mother got for him, they are allowed to meet face to
00:45:38
face. Uh there's some pretty famous photos of this activity as well, where you can see David Caresh and the
00:45:46
attorney standing talking face to face for hours at the front door of the compound. On March 30th, on a hill
00:45:56
approximately 3 miles away from the compound, there's a large number of folks gathered to observe what was
00:46:06
happening at the Mount Carmel compound. We have journalism student Michelle Roch
00:46:13
who interviews a Golf War veteran, 24year-old US Army veteran Timothy James McVey.
00:46:21
He is there handing out bumper stickers and proun rights pamphlets with slogans on them like when guns are outlawed I
00:46:31
will become an outlaw. He told the student reporter the government is afraid of the guns people have because
00:46:38
they have to have control of the people at all times. Once you take away the guns you can do anything to the people.
00:46:46
You give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist government. The
00:46:53
government is continually growing bigger and more powerful and the people need to
00:46:58
prepare to defend themselves against government control. On April 1st, the two attorneys spend the day inside the
00:47:07
compound. So now the attorneys are allowed inside by the FBI. The uh Devidians say that they will leave. They
00:47:15
the attorneys go back to the FBI and say, "This is what we heard. This is what we were told. The Devidians are
00:47:20
saying that they're going to leave either tomorrow, April 2nd, or on April 10th. This has something to do with
00:47:27
Passover and the observance of Passover. Um, I I don't quite know the details of
00:47:33
that, but we do know that on Sunday, April 4th, the lawyers meet again with David Caresh and reiterate that everyone
00:47:40
will come out after Passover. Now, on April 5th, the Devidians observe Passover. On April 7th, David Caresh
00:47:49
refuses to confirm an exit date. Hostage release team commander Richard Rogers proposes a tear gas plan to
00:48:00
force the Devidians out of the structure. Yeah. One of the most interesting interviews was with the FBI
00:48:09
negotiator because they're trying to to negotiate with somebody where they're giving him what he wants and then he's
00:48:19
basically changing his mind. Well, I'll give you this if you give me this. But then he doesn't follow through with his
00:48:24
end of the bargain the majority of the time. And then they're getting pressure from anybody that's on the tactical side
00:48:33
going, let's stop negotiating with this Yahoo and let's let's bring force. So, it'd be a very tough place to be in as
00:48:42
far as the negotiators standpoint. On Friday, April 9th, David Caresh sends a letter to the FBI saying, "The heavens
00:48:51
are calling you to judgment." and he actually sends a series of letters to the FBI over the course of the next
00:48:58
couple of days. We get two FBI experts, uh, psychological experts from the FBI that analyze these letters and they walk
00:49:09
away with the conclusion that David Caresh was possibly a psychotic and he had actually truly had no intention of
00:49:17
of leaving voluntarily from Mount Carmel. The FBI finalizes plans to use tear gas and
00:49:26
seeks Janet Reno's approval on their new course of action. Sunday, April 11th is
00:49:33
Easter Sunday and there there are some negotiations. There are some talks, but they don't go anywhere on Easter Sunday.
00:49:42
On the 12th, the tear gas plan is presented to Janet Reno not as an allout assault on the Dividians, but as a
00:49:51
tactic whereby gas will be inserted in stages periodically into the compound. Initially into only one small area of
00:50:01
the compound. The goal of this, obviously, if you're only putting it into one small section of the compound,
00:50:07
is to not only drive them out of that area, but away from that area and encouraging them to exit through an
00:50:16
uncontaminated portion of the compound. On the 13th, for most of the afternoon, David Caresh, he's he's on the phone
00:50:25
with negotiators and he is Bible thumping them essentially, right? He's using that what what the FBI
00:50:33
was referring to as Bible babble. And he starts reminding them that he is still not doesn't know when they will come out
00:50:42
and he's not coming out until God tells him to do so. On the 14th, we get we get some this is where
00:50:50
things start to shift a little bit. And the and really in full review of this here, Captain, when I reviewed this
00:50:57
part, part of me, I mean, of course, we all wish that it didn't go down the way that it went down, right? I I've not
00:51:04
talked to one person that's like, "They did the right thing." And and when I say
00:51:08
they, I mean either side, right? This is the part that makes me wonder, could it
00:51:14
have been possible to just wait a little bit longer and maybe they would have come out? Because on the 14th, and this
00:51:20
plays this goes toward their teaching and to and to what they follow and what they believe. David Caresh tells the FBI
00:51:29
that we're look, we're not going to we will surrender eventually, but we are not
00:51:34
going to surrender until I have written a manuscript that explains the seven seals on the 16th. So
00:51:45
this is 2 days later. Caresh tells negotiators, you know, just be patient. I have completed the manuscript on the
00:51:53
first seal. So it there are seven of them. It would it would seem to me that if he's telling the truth on these
00:52:00
matters, then it's it could be a 14-day waiting period. If in fact he's completed this manuscript in a two-day
00:52:09
time period, well, he's got six more to go. And if he could do it at the same pace, we might be 12 days away from
00:52:17
people walking out of this compound. Yeah. But again, it's difficult situation for law enforcement because
00:52:23
this Yahoo has been lying to you the whole time. Correct. And he is doing what law enforcement hates. He's
00:52:31
controlling the situation. Law enforcement cannot stand that. And in fact, at times it's downright dangerous
00:52:38
for law enforcement to not be in control of the situation. Now, Janet Reno does reject the tear gas plan on the 16th. I
00:52:48
don't know if that is in direct relation to Caresha telling them that he's making
00:52:53
progress on his manuscript. The next day, there's an individual um it was a man, his name Lewis. It was not a branch
00:53:03
devidian but somehow I guess snuck into the compound early during this standoff.
00:53:10
I have no idea why anybody would want to do something like this and put themselves directly in harm's way. But
00:53:16
on this day he leaves the compound. This is also the same day that Janet Reno approves the FBI's tear gas plan. But
00:53:26
she remember she what's going on here is she basically states I'll leave the details and the
00:53:34
tactical decisions up to those at Waco. Right. I do believe this Lewis guy was actually a agent that they had infantry
00:53:45
the compound. He was if if I'm thinking of the same guy that would make a lot of
00:53:51
more sense. Yeah. So he was like he was in there before the siege even happened.
00:53:55
he was pretending to to be a member because what you have to remember is yes the the guns that's a concern but when
00:54:05
you have all these other reports of uh child abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, they had to be able to confirm
00:54:14
this on some level. And so that's who I believe this Lewis guy is that you know what I think you're exactly right that
00:54:24
he I I what I think we have here is if I remember correctly, they didn't identify
00:54:31
him as an undercover agent until well after right the events of Waco. And part of that is you you
00:54:40
know the these entities should not be in the business of outing their undercover
00:54:46
agents. On Sunday, April 18th, Janet Reno briefs Bill Clinton on their CS gas plan of forcing the Devidians out. The
00:54:57
president concurs with Reno, but ask questions about assuring the children will be safe, but adds it, you know,
00:55:06
it's your decision. You're in control here. He does push. Clinton did push and remind
00:55:14
the the parties involved here and the parties that the in power that he was still hoping that it could be negotiated
00:55:23
and whatever problems or and the murders that took place, whatever accountability
00:55:29
needed to be dealt out with along with punishments, he wanted to see this play out in the court
00:55:35
system, not in in a in a war type setting. This portion of the story is is heavily debated, but it was well
00:55:45
reported, especially early on after after the events of Waco. So, I didn't want to skip over it here, Captain, but
00:55:54
there were reports that the So, on the 18th, armored vehicles, they continue to to get closer and closer to the
00:56:03
compound, right? They're working their way in. They're they're closing in. And they even clear out David Caresh's
00:56:10
personal vehicle and a bunch of other vehicles that were in front of the compound. They remove those and the FBI
00:56:19
is warning the Devidians to stay out of the tower. They're seeing them up in the
00:56:25
tower. The FBI reports as the reports go. are holding up children in the windows and one window
00:56:32
um there's a sign that says flames await and then that takes us to the sad tragic and
00:56:42
horrifically unfortunate events of the following day April 19th 1993 from midnight till about 5:30 a.m.
00:56:57
Everything's quiet. There's no reports of even blaring music or sounds previously used by the
00:57:07
FBI. At about 10 minutes to 6 a.m., federal agents reportedly call the compound and inform the members
00:57:18
to give up or they will be gassed. And I think their thought was, we have these tanks. We're going to
00:57:26
hit parts of their building with these tanks, not not with explosives, and then we're going to
00:57:36
start shooting in this gas, and we're going to see a flood of people leave. I hope that was their intention, and I
00:57:44
hope that was their hopes as well. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So what you would have is you would use the tanks to basically
00:57:52
bust in or bust through a portion of a wall, a perimeter wall of the fortress, and
00:58:02
then send in the gas, fire in the gas, and draw them out, force them out. at 6:00 am there's a Department of Public
00:58:14
Safety officer uh that is warning remember we have those people that are just there in observance right you have
00:58:21
the media that has gathered you have Timothy McVey and other people that have gathered and so these people are all
00:58:28
approximately two to three miles away but they're being warned to take cover and to get the hell out of here because
00:58:37
you see those tanks up there we're about to start using them and we don't know exactly what's going to happen and we
00:58:43
don't want any members of the public to be injured or worse. At 604, an armored vehicle smashes through the front wall
00:58:51
of the compound just left of the front door, leaving a hole about 8 ft or sorry, 8 ft in height and 10 feet wide.
00:59:01
At 6:15, an ambulance rushes toward the compound with lights flashing. At 6:55, authorities call the Hillrest
00:59:11
Baptist Medical Center in Waco and they say, "Be on alert. Be on alert." They they're notifying them, "Hey, we think
00:59:19
we're going to be sending you a whole bunch of people real soon." Right at 8:00 a.m., an armored vehicle with a
00:59:27
large battering arm rips into the second floor of the compound. And minutes later, another hole is punched into the
00:59:34
backside of the compound. At 80514, hospital staffers are called in and four additional doctors are called
00:59:43
in. Right? Remember, this is still a ready response team essentially is being built at the local hospital. At 9:00
00:59:52
a.m., President Clinton says he has been briefed on the assault and the US Attorney General Janet Reno has given
00:59:57
the go-ahead for the tactical plan. And at 9:20 a.m., an armored vehicle returns
01:00:02
to the compound and bashes another hole in the front wall of the compound, taking out the front door. At 10:30, FBI
01:00:10
special agent Ricks says that the continued ramming of the building and the introduction of tear gas is intended
01:00:20
as the next logical step to ending the 51-day standoff. The agents in the armored vehicles are met with 65 to 80
01:00:33
gunshots from inside the compound as they approach. He says agents did not return fire. No one was injured. He says
01:00:43
the compound was rammed 10 or 10 10 or 11 times in the original assault, tearing holes in walls and the roof.
01:00:52
Each ramming met with 10 to 12 shots. Again, that report is coming from the FBI, so take that for what you will. but
01:01:03
also when they're interviewing AFT agents, FBI agents, and because you we have to remember there's there's also a
01:01:12
bunch of followers that are on the outside now watching this play out in real time, live on the news, and
01:01:21
everybody's wondering, why aren't they coming out? Where are the people? What the hell is going on in there? At 5
01:01:29
minutes after noon, a vehicle hits the corner of the compound, knocking another sizable hole in it. 5 minutes after
01:01:37
that, flames and smoke are seen pouring from the compound. High winds are whipping the building and fanning the
01:01:46
flames. And one thing that is reported to us constantly is in regard to the the gas, the CS
01:01:56
gas and then the flames being seen is they do they do constantly remind us about the the the time period, right?
01:02:06
That the the window of time between when we stopped firing gas into the compound
01:02:12
and when the flames actually were seen. And I believe that that those statements
01:02:19
are that there was roughly one hour between those two events because truly look there's a lot
01:02:28
of opinions about what happened, who's who should be facing more blame, what side should be facing more blame here.
01:02:41
But really truly, I I've I've reviewed this thing and reviewed this thing and looked for every bit of information out
01:02:47
there. And some of it is is one-sided. Some of it is very opinionated. Some of it says that the Devidians did nothing
01:02:54
wrong and that they were murdered and and tortured and and killed. And then there are other
01:03:02
opinions out there that that was the the FBI had to do something and the Devidians were were
01:03:10
crazy or just led by this psychotic crazy individual that that let his followers take the
01:03:20
fall alongside of him, which we've seen other c in other cults. We've seen it time and time again throughout history.
01:03:27
So, it's not hard to believe or too terribly difficult to believe that this may have happened again here. But really
01:03:33
truly, Captain I the only thing I feel confident saying when we want to talk about things
01:03:41
like blame or or ultimately who was to blame the most is there's three scenarios here and all three of them are
01:03:50
plausible. a that the FBI murdered these extreme Christian people who just wanted
01:03:57
to be left alone and and carry out their their their beliefs, their belief system. War II. The Devidians were a
01:04:10
bunch of wackos in Waco, led by a wacko who convinced them just stay inside and let's we'll burn to death and
01:04:20
martyrdom. Or the other option is that the FBI never intended for the the building to to go up in flames. The
01:04:30
Devidians never set fire to the structure and there was a spark somewhere in that building. And we we
01:04:38
talked about the structure. We talked about how it was built. We talked about the hay
01:04:43
barrels. We talked about them firing CS gas into the building, which is not I want to be clear here, my general
01:04:53
understanding. And there's several ways that you can there's several different chemical cocktails that can make up tear
01:05:01
gas. And depending on what kind they were using or what chemical com cocktail they were
01:05:07
using, this is not highly flammable stuff here. However, it is somewhat combustible. It might not be
01:05:17
easily or readily lit uh on fire, but it can be lit on fire. So, I mean, it's I mean, look,
01:05:29
it's I I may maybe I'm holding back a few opinions here, but I know a lot of people out there
01:05:37
have strong opinions one way or the other on this, but I think all of us can agree that this was a horrible outcome
01:05:46
to a bad situation and nobody wanted it to end this way. I I hope that I really do hope that. And
01:05:54
I mean that when I say nobody wanted to end this way, I'm not talking about people listening to to us to our
01:06:01
presentation. I'm not talking about people that were sitting at home on their couches watching this play out on
01:06:06
the 6:00 and 11:00 news back in 1993. I'm talking about David Caresh and I'm talking about the
01:06:14
negotiators for the FBI and the people that make decisions, good or bad, on behalf of the FBI. Those are the
01:06:24
people that I'm saying I hope nobody wanted any kind of outcome like this at all. On April 19th, the fire at the
01:06:35
Mount Carmel compound, it completely destroyed the compound. According to the FBI, FBI agent Steve Schneider, David
01:06:45
Caresh's top aid shot and killed Caresh and then himself. 76 people died in the fire, including 20 children. ATF agents
01:06:55
Conway Leblau, Todd McCan, Robert Williams, and Steven Willis. They were killed prior to the
01:07:05
fire. They were killed when the standoff started. Meanwhile, many miles away, convicted cop killer, murderer, and
01:07:14
white supremist Richard Wayne Snell was still being held at the Tucker unit at a
01:07:20
maximum security prison in Jefferson County, Arkansas. His appeals were running out and his ex execution day, a
01:07:29
date with a needle injected into the veins of his right arm accompanied by a lethal dose of the Arkansas state death
01:07:38
penalty was drawing closer and closer every day. [Music] For everything true crime, check out
01:07:52
true crimegar.com. Make sure you sign up on the mailing list and check out our merchandise. It's a great way to support
01:07:59
the show and get something cool in return. And until next week, be good, be kind, and don't leave.
01:08:19
[Applause] Heat. Heat.