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welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me
00:01:48
as always is a man who is thankful for an NFL game on Black Friday so that we have something to do to avoid the
00:01:56
shopping here is the captain what are you talking about I'm going to gear up put my helmet on and punch some people
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in the face for that flat screen TV it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling
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a [Music] friend ah today we are still sipping on some delicious Tropa Canon from the
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great Brewers over at Heavy Seas beer hop on board and experience the Bold Citrus flavor of this awesome beer
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garage grade 4 at a five bottle caps and here's some cheers to our friends who are awesome as well first up a cheers to
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longdistance cheers to Ivana from test Italy everyone we just mentioned they helped us fill up the garage fridge for
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this week's set of shows and for that we are forever thankful yeah BW R in beer run if you got some
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extra time go over to Apple podcast and leave us a five-star review would love you forever and that's enough of the
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business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
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[Music] as you heard in episode one there is a lot of question marks in this case and
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we're going to go through as many of those as we possibly can and try to hit every single one how will we come out at
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the end I don't know but as said earlier there is a lot of information that I think is key here now we talked a little
00:03:59
bit about the relationships in this case I think it is absolutely a big part of this case an
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attempting to understand the house the layout of the home and the household in general
00:04:15
because depending on where one's suspicions May lie a description of the relationship of the three men inside the
00:04:22
home could be important now the captain addressed this in episode one and we talked about this a little bit as as
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well what we do know is that Robert Juan first met Joseph price when Robert was an applicant to the College of William
00:04:37
and Mary Robert graduated from William and Mary in 1996 he received his law degree from the University of
00:04:43
Pennsylvania Law School in 1999 the two friends stayed in contact during that time and during the stretch from 99
00:04:52
until someone murdered Robert in 2006 also during that stretch Robert met and married Kathy Juan Joseph price became
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involved in a committed romantic relationship with Victor zaborski in 2001 and Dylan Ward also became a
00:05:08
romantic partner of Joseph's in 2003 he also became a housemate of Mr Price and Victor as well again the relationship of
00:05:19
the three men living together has been described many different ways regardless we do know
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that on more than one occasion when questioned by police they refer them refer to themselves as family so like
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you were saying the EMTs take Robert to the hospital they pronounce him dead there is some confusion there because
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basically the EMTs are saying well we believe Robert was dead when we got there um maybe some evidence that he was
00:05:50
dead longer than the three gentlemen were stating but he was pronounced dead at the hospital and then we also have to
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make make this point too the EMT makes statements saying that when I showed up to this 1509 Swan Street all three of
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these gentlemen Joe Victor and Dylan looked like they have taken showers and they were in Bath robes yes and so then
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on top of that he said that when he got to the top of the to the second floor the floor that Robert was on that he
00:06:31
commented towards Dylan and Dylan didn't reply to him and just turned around and
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went into Dylan's room and shut the door very odd behavior and then you have the EMTs
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there you have police there then all three of the roommates are sitting on the couch and they're
00:06:51
whispering to each other Joe is the only one that's really talking to law enforcement and anytime the other
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anytime either of the other two guys would speak he was giving them looks like shut up let me do the talking now
00:07:09
again Joe's a lawyer so that would make some sense hey I'm a lawyer I I deal with law enforcement often so let me do
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the talking and then the cops say hey how about you come down to the station so then they come down to the station and
00:07:25
we're going to learn a lot more uh about their story IES and inconsistencies during that whether you
00:07:34
want to call it an interrogation or during that interview process yeah and so let's let's focus on this everything
00:07:41
that you went through here as you said so we have the EMT arrived there's two uh EMTs that are arriving together and
00:07:51
as you said their observation or at least one of their observations is that Robert Juan
00:07:59
has has been dead for some time they don't they don't clarify what sometime means but they do state in some of the
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information out there that he was cold to the touch an indicator that he he wasn't just stabbed just minutes ago and
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they called 911 immediately that some time took place between the stabbing whether that's by whom we don't know and
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when they decided to call 911 because we do know this the 911 call is placed and
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Paran Medics are on the scene within about five or so minutes of that call so they arrive rather quickly he probably
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shouldn't be cold by that point the other thing too that's interesting is the neighbors statement that all I heard
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a scream and she put the scream at before 11:30 the 911 call comes in at 11:49 there's no question about what
00:08:55
time the 911 call comes in the question is what time did the scream take Place police believe that that scream took
00:09:01
place before 11:30 based off of the neighbor's statement if in fact that is true then that means that the men inside
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the home waited 19 minutes to make that phone call the tricky thing here is too if they are responding to scream to a
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scream and door chime and all that in their statements that doesn't include a whole lot of Dylan right it's Joseph
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price and Victor go downstairs they find robbert and then Joe sends Victor back upstairs to make the 911 call Dylan
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would later tell police that he didn't hear what was going on right we have the the two individuals on the third floor
00:09:40
who are further away from the would be murder scene or what we're told is the murder scene that seem to hear the door
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chime they're much further from that back door than Dylan is in fact Dylan would have been right above that back
00:09:53
door now we talked about these alarm systems they're not particularly loud usually those Chimes are set to a a
00:10:00
minimum volume because it's not that chime that's supposed to alert you if somebody broke into your home it's the
00:10:06
siren that goes off after the chime just simply alerts you that the door has been
00:10:10
opened and you wouldn't want that to be particularly loud because you don't want
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it to be disruptive Dylan's statements is he didn't hear the scream he didn't hear the noises coming from what would
00:10:20
have been Robert's room like the others had stated and he didn't hear the door chime his statements to police is that
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he was sleeping remember he said he took the sleeping pill so maybe that knocked
00:10:30
him out he also says that the air condition vent was above his bed and the air condition would have been on that
00:10:36
night because it was a hot night it's August and that the air condition when it runs it's rather loud and it really
00:10:42
kind of uh deafens any noise that he would hear from outside or even within the home outside of his bedroom the
00:10:50
detectives would say the opposite no we were in there we shut the door we cranked up the AC we heard it it didn't
00:10:58
it wasn't loud at all muffle the sounds of anything but we got to keep in mind here who's right who's wrong it's
00:11:04
difficult for us to say in the garage because if either the men inside the home are telling the truth or a complete
00:11:10
lie and regardless the police at some point are going to collect evidence or even a lack thereof evidence or build
00:11:18
their cases around the statements of these three men while I believe that they they're probably mostly honest I
00:11:24
will say in the documentary I saw times where you're getting a slightly exaggerated version
00:11:31
of statements that were given by other people right where for example the EMT saying well he's been dead for quite
00:11:41
some time okay that's what the EMT says when that same statement is relayed to us from the prosecutor or a detective
00:11:51
that person then says well he was dead for some time in fact the he was cold I don't have any reason to discredit the
00:11:58
detective or for the prosecutor but I didn't hear the EMT say that he was cold to the touch I'm hearing you tell me
00:12:05
that the EMT told you that he was cold to the touch well there's a few things weird to me about this interview process
00:12:13
of course law enforcement's going to try to divide and conquer they get each one
00:12:18
of these guys in a separate room they start asking them questions but one of the things that is
00:12:25
not clear in the documentary that I learned later was the three men kept asking for breaks and they would say hey
00:12:35
we need to take a break you know this is overwhelming and because they weren't being charged with anything and because
00:12:42
the law enforcement that you know basically the the guys were coming down to the station on their own free will
00:12:50
and trying to cooperate so I think on some level you can go well that makes them look innocent of any crime but so
00:12:58
they keep taking these breaks but they're all taking the brakes together they're going out into the parking lot
00:13:05
and and sitting in the car that they came in so when people say well you know this crime went down and there was 19
00:13:15
minutes and that's not enough time to get your story straight it's like well but you had more than that because you
00:13:22
have these breaks in between the interview sessions and then you also have just going down
00:13:29
if they all rode together in the same car to go down to the station how long of a period until they're in those
00:13:36
interrogation rooms I mean the the car situation is difficult for me to understand because we have the
00:13:42
prosecutor who will later refer to as one of of these meetings that you're talking about as the Mercedes meeting
00:13:48
because they were sitting together in a Mercedes I'm having a hard time figuring
00:13:52
out where the hell the Mercedes came from because there are clear statements from the detectives that they trans
00:13:59
reported all three of these individuals to the police station individually well that's because they had a friend come
00:14:05
down to the station right so maybe it's I'm guessing it's his car yes it's the friends Mercedes so so but we know that
00:14:12
they were transported according to the detectives individually damn If This Were my case and you tell me you want to
00:14:17
take a break I get it I can't hold you because you're not under arrest but guess what you want to go outside get a
00:14:22
little fresh air it's a nice warm night out there excellent all of a sudden I'm a smoker boys I got to go out and take a
00:14:29
smoke break with you or you know I'm not saying they were smoking but let's all go outside get a little fresh air you
00:14:34
know what we've been in here for 45 minutes I could use a cigarette all of a sudden I'm a smoker now I'm I'm keeping
00:14:40
a pack of cigarettes in my desk just in case I have to act this [ __ ] out would
00:14:43
you mind I know we've gone a long way down this road here Captain but I I do want to back up a little bit because I
00:14:48
think there are a couple things that we might have leapfrogged over here okay again I think that a a better grander
00:14:56
understanding of all of the relationships is important I'm talking about Robert and Kathy the wands
00:15:02
relationships with these three men okay so what we do know is the the the nucleus of this relationship is Robert
00:15:12
and Joseph have been friends since College Joseph's a little bit a few years older than Robert yeah Joseph was
00:15:18
a senior when Robert was a freshman we know that Joseph and Victor who are Partners
00:15:25
attended Robert and Kathy's wedding in 200 three we also know based off of Kathy ju's statements to police that
00:15:35
both her and Robert stayed in socially engaged with primarily Joseph but all three of the men she says that they
00:15:45
would socialize with them roughly about two to maybe four times a year regularly
00:15:50
from the time that they were married so we have a couple years of this pretty regular interaction amongst all five of
00:15:58
these people and she does say that look we both of us have been to their townhouse before on Swan Street in fact
00:16:08
Robert Juan's 30th surprise birthday party was hosted by these three guys at the townhouse on Swan Street and so we
00:16:17
have the wife that is saying look you know we knew these guys fairly well or at least enough that we socialized with
00:16:23
them face to face hanging out several times a year we had been to the home a couple of times because that was tricky
00:16:30
for me I was listening to Dylan statements to police and he tells the police yeah this was the first time that
00:16:36
Robert ever stayed over uh I wanted to know beyond the 30th birthday party how many times had they been there and
00:16:43
according to the wife they had been to the home let's see here's the exact statement the W socialized with the
00:16:49
housemates approximately two to four times per year and visited them at their home on three occasions after they had
00:16:55
moved into the residence on Swan Street okay so that seems pretty definitive pretty clear three occasions before this
00:17:03
horrible night where he's killed well what's confusing though to me is we know people knew that Joe and Victor were
00:17:11
married I don't think everybody in their Social Circle knew that Dylan had a relationship with Joe I don't think that
00:17:20
was something that they were sharing with everybody and they might not have been going out of their way to hide it
00:17:26
but it also doesn't appear to me to be obvious to anyone obviously Joseph and Victor you can tell that they're
00:17:32
together now one thing that I think and I might be wrong here I did watch the documentary twice but it looked to me
00:17:39
like one thing that was missing from the documentary is that the Swan Street house was a threeory row house right so
00:17:47
we have a basement we have the ground level we have the second floor where Dylan had his room Robert is found in
00:17:55
the study and then you have the third floor the top level where Victor and Joseph slept right but at the time there
00:18:04
was a basement unit that was being rented to a friend of the three men who live there her name is Sarah Morgan
00:18:12
she's renting a basement unit now on the night that Robert is killed she was out
00:18:18
for the night and it's my understanding the way that I've everything that I've read is it sounds to me Captain that Not
00:18:27
only was she going to be out for the night but it was kind of understood that she wouldn't be returning at all that
00:18:33
night yeah so that's implying that these three men knew Roberts coming over in advance they also know that their renter
00:18:44
because that's again we talked about this earlier she's a renter she's not a roommate but it's it's very possible
00:18:52
that there is some way to access the basement apartment through the the main level oh absolutely there absolutely is
00:19:02
yeah I've seen the layout you wish that she was there because obviously we would
00:19:07
have a clearer picture of what happened yeah so the let's talk about the layout of the home we already talked about
00:19:15
where everybody was staying but according to what the housan M state that they believe they believe that the
00:19:24
Intruder that killed Robert that stabbed Robert came in through the back door and
00:19:30
when they're asked that by police this this says to me that they they they're either convinced that that's the truth
00:19:36
or they're trying to sell this as the truth because they well how do you know it was the back door they say well we
00:19:42
heard the back door chimes and like I talked about with my security system at home and I know yours at your home and
00:19:48
the one that we use at the garage a lot of these security systems you can set them up so it it will tell you which
00:19:56
door was opened yeah or you can have door a make a different noise than door B or C so they're telling police that's
00:20:06
how we that's why we believe it was the back door that we well we heard the Chimes they they never at any time do
00:20:12
they say we think the Intruder would have come in through the front door now interesting here the front door is
00:20:18
locked the back door may have been left unlocked so it seems reasonable to believe that maybe somebody could have
00:20:23
entered the home from the back the problem is that the back door they have a small space behind the home some of
00:20:34
the homes there in these roow houses they actually Park their cars with inside a fenced in gated area that is
00:20:41
behind the home so you you essentially have no backyard at all here I think that they may have been parking one car
00:20:48
at the time I don't know the way that it's described in the documentary there was no vehicle back there but what's not
00:20:55
in question is every Source we could find says the same thing that backyard area as small as it is is
00:21:01
surrounded by an 8-ft fence can somebody jump an 8ot fence maybe on my best day when I was 20 I could I don't know I
00:21:11
don't think I've ever physically jumped an 8ot fence but the reason why somebody
00:21:15
would have to jump it is the way that it's described is that while the back door to the home was unlocked or
00:21:22
potentially unlocked no signs of forced entry to the home the gate which was equally as high as the fence that
00:21:30
surrounded it was not was was in fact locked yeah so law enforcement's also going to argue that when they heard this
00:21:38
story and they then investigate the crime scene they see cobwebs reminds me of the John B Ramsey Intruder theory
00:21:47
that you see cob maybe it was the same guy and you go this is not these items aren't Disturbed so it doesn't seem like
00:21:55
likely that somebody would have jumped the fence but we also have a neighbor that says
00:22:02
hey um you know whatever happened in that house you know I have this little kid play sandbox that the lid was
00:22:11
smashed and there's two Footprints so maybe if there was an intruder that when they jumped the fence to to get back
00:22:18
over that they landed on this sandbox I thought they quit making those types of sandboxes when we were little kids
00:22:25
because it looked like one that we had when we were kids remember the one that that's like shaped like a turtle yeah
00:22:30
and the lid is like a turtle shell and you take the turtle shell off and insides the beautiful sand and you play
00:22:35
in there with your GI Jo's and your little musclemen yeah that's what we did well that's maybe what you did but I
00:22:40
normally would take my pants off maybe take a leak maybe take a dump and blame it on the the house cat this guy is
00:22:47
saying look guys somebody could have came back over this fence and landed on top of my kid sandbox and here's an
00:22:55
imprint on the turtle shell lid on top that smooshed it in he's not saying this is in fact exactly what happened but
00:23:04
he's suspicious and saying look here's some evidence that it it might have gone down this way yeah and this individual
00:23:10
then claimed that law enforcement said to him we already got the the people responsible for this so they didn't take
00:23:18
this claim serious and that is the big criticism in this case to law enforcement is that they go well there's
00:23:26
four individuals in the house one is dead and we don't buy the story that these three guys are trying to sell us
00:23:35
so therefore they're responsible and they didn't look anywhere else and I think that's a fair argument thank you
00:23:44
thank you I believe so as well so think about this let me I I agree with you 1,00% but
00:23:52
I will say this in defense of the police when they show up to a scene one guy's dead
00:23:59
nobody else is harmed in any way at all nobody can describe the Intruder because
00:24:03
everybody says we didn't see the Intruder we're just guessing was an intruder the murder weapon came or at
00:24:09
least we're either either this we didn't even get into the murder weapon that yet
00:24:13
the murder weapon is displayed to lead persons to believe that a knife that belonged to the homeowners was the
00:24:22
murder weapon right there's no signs of forced entry and oh nobody stole anything from the home either so so for
00:24:30
any detective out there and I I want to be clear about this because I believe that maybe had they locked on to these
00:24:37
guys too early that I think that's a fair statement they probably did because I don't see a whole lot of activity
00:24:44
outside of the home looking for the killer or looking for the Intruder or looking for evidence of the Intruder it
00:24:51
looks to me more like they're looking for evidence of no Intruder but the defense that I will state is I believe
00:24:58
and I I could be perfectly wrong wouldn't be the first time it hurts every time um I believe that there's a
00:25:05
chance that maybe they locked on to these guys whether it's too early or not before they even had an understanding of
00:25:12
them being homosexual meaning I think that if detectives showed up to any scene and you have everybody there is
00:25:23
straight or whatever if they see no forced entry the murder weapon came from s inside the home nothing was stolen and
00:25:32
three out of four people were unharmed didn't see the Intruder I think immediately right there it's difficult
00:25:37
to not lock in or start going well maybe one or all of these guys did it and then
00:25:43
you start to learn about the home and the relationship of some of the people within that home again a variable here
00:25:50
that's not mentioned very often is the other roommate who was not home that night Sarah Morgan the uh one thing that
00:25:57
we've not mentioned is the home is rather large right we talked about it being essentially a four-story home once
00:26:03
you talk about the basement but it's a large beautiful home now one thing that's good for
00:26:10
detectives is this is a very neat and tidy home right like this it's got expensive furniture expensive
00:26:18
Collectibles it doesn't seem to be cluttered at all it also doesn't seem to be like it's open spaces in a lot of
00:26:25
these rooms from what I've been able to see this is a a home that partly in location but also partly because of its
00:26:33
size it's over a $1 million home back in 2006 but I think the responsible thing even if you're interviewing these
00:26:42
individuals and the stories not matching up I think you have to then go and figure out can you prove or disprove an
00:26:52
intruder Theory and so I I think that would have been easier to do at the start start than later but so during
00:27:02
this interview process they're trying to figure out which individual that they could break down and the prosecutor said
00:27:11
hey look th this Victor guy seemed to be an honest person and a good person and so they tried to to break him down but
00:27:20
then they have Dylan he's on the second floor with our victim so they end up pulling him out out of the interview
00:27:30
process to give him a polygraph and he fails the polygraph which does not help law enforcement wanting to believe these
00:27:40
individuals stories it's just not adding up it's just not making much sense [Music]
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this show is sponsored by better help I'd like to take a moment to thank my partner in crime Nick he shows up every
00:29:18
week and is always respectful of the victims it's been an honor to work with him this month is all about gratitude
00:29:26
and along with thanking my partner in crime there's another person we don't get to thank enough ourselves it's
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sometimes hard to remind ourselves that we are trying our best to make sense of everything in this crazy world and it
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at checkout [Applause] [Music] all right we are back cheers mates tall canes in the air party to the people in
00:33:41
the back cheers to all of you cheers to all of you on Thanksgiving day especially if you're traveling a great
00:33:50
distance I hope you're uh filling your earballs with True Crime garage goodness yeah and Gobble Gobble before you enjoy
00:33:56
a little friendship a little family a little food a little football a little fun on
00:34:02
Thanksgiving Day uh Captain you had mentioned something that I do want to bring up here uh in my notes I have a
00:34:09
note that there was in fact a door small set of stairs that led to the lower level the basement level from that patio
00:34:16
area behind the behind the row house right so you have an Alleyway you have a 8ft gate an 8ft fence that surrounds
00:34:25
this patio area inside the patio area are you have a table and chairs there's a small set of steps that lead down to
00:34:33
the basement with a locked basement door the back door to the home is supposed to
00:34:38
be dead boled uh and again the the alarm system is is constantly brought up by detectives Captain you brought up that
00:34:47
you you believe that it was it was still installed and still active however not monitored yes this is what the
00:34:54
prosecutor said yes so we know that to be fact if the pro utor said it it's got to be fact let's go a step further
00:35:01
though the police also have a very difficult and problematic part of the story for them
00:35:08
is look most burglars if they're going to enter home from that Alleyway it makes a
00:35:15
lot of sense to come out of that Alleyway and not go into the front of the home on the front of the home you
00:35:22
this is a street in a in a very populated area you would practically be on display going in out of that front
00:35:28
door so a burglar naturally is going to come in through the alleyway and choose to go in that back door if it were me
00:35:35
and I could get in that basement door that's the way I'm going in but one thing that detectives point out beyond
00:35:41
that security system monitored or otherwise typically what comes with these security systems is plenty of
00:35:47
signs and stickers for your windows that are notifications that hey this house is
00:35:52
armed I tell everybody that ask me about Simply Safe or about getting another security system for their home yes get
00:35:58
it and make sure that you put out the signs and make sure you put out the stickers because a lot of times that
00:36:05
alone is enough to deter some random burglar right somebody that doesn't know your home they see those signs the they
00:36:12
see those stickers guess what they do quite easy they go to the neighbor's house that don't have those stickers and
00:36:18
signs and they break into their home so the police point out that you know a burglar probably would avoid this house
00:36:24
because of the security system there's also motion detected lights back in that patio and according to the detectives
00:36:33
perspectives or at least what they're telling us it was well lit back there and we do know that criminals don't like
00:36:40
light they like to do things in the dark under the cover of Darkness so those lights may have been a deterrent as well
00:36:47
also very strange that they enter the home and don't steal anything and you and I had a conversation on the phone
00:36:54
leading up to hitting record today that I thought was ining cuz we we were kind of kicking around the idea of well maybe
00:37:02
this wasn't this Intruder wasn't a burglar at all maybe this Intruder went into that home with the intent of
00:37:10
harming or hurting or killing somebody right because if they don't steal anything we we know that they don't seem
00:37:15
to have been spooked right like this is a home filled with a whole bunch of expensive stuff you don't have to go
00:37:22
beyond the ground level to start bagging things up to take with you when you leave but where told we're led to
00:37:28
believe by the people that live there Intruder comes in he jumps the fence gets in through the back door no sign of
00:37:36
forced entry pulls a knife out of the Block in the kitchen goes up the steps oh by the way it's 16 stairs that are
00:37:44
described as rather Steep and old where you would hear it's wooden steps so you you might hear the footsteps themselves
00:37:52
you might hear the steps cracking and creaking as the person went up the key thing here that I think the detectives
00:37:59
really hit home for me in their description was even if this burglar was of the feline type right I'm talking
00:38:07
about a cat burglar here super stealth mode is able to slide slippery snake slide up those steps without making a
00:38:15
single noise they bypassed Dylan's room again we don't know if doors were closed
00:38:21
I get the vibe that Dylan's door was closed I have no clue if Robert's door was closed well and the other question
00:38:27
that I have is not just is the door closed but is the door locked I lock my bedroom
00:38:35
door so is it is it possible and especially when you have situations where you have uh multiple
00:38:44
roommates you might find yourself locking you know the bathroom door or the bedroom door when you go to sleep so
00:38:51
is it possible that the Intruder comes in tries to open up the first door they see and it's locked so they go to the
00:38:59
next one and we you know we have to talk about sexual orientation because if that
00:39:06
was if it plays a factor in the murder yeah because I think if you have this Intruder that's coming into the house
00:39:15
just to kill a random person what do we know about the individuals that live there and what do people in that area
00:39:23
know about their relationship like I said I don't think it was open knowledge to everybody that they
00:39:31
knew that hey this is uh again it's tough to say it's it's like a love triangle because you it may not connect
00:39:39
on all sides exactly and but there are horrible individuals out there yes there are we talk about them every week people
00:39:49
who commit hate crimes is there somebody that saw Joe in the in the newspaper this Joe has been uh in the
00:39:59
media in the news he's very successful he's a lawyer who who uh I can't remember the company that he represents
00:40:05
but it was a gay rights um attorney and is it is it possible that somebody in that area sees him that's interesting he
00:40:15
becomes the target but they they go into the house and the problem with the Intruder Theory though is if you open up
00:40:24
that door to get in the house the the alarm goes off most people would flee then if they had if the lights weren't
00:40:31
already a deterrent or the 8ot fence they would open up the door hear the Chimes Little P comes out and then you
00:40:39
you freak out and you turn around and run right so but I again I think if you lean towards the idea that the Intruder
00:40:47
Theory makes sense to you I think you have to start looking at it as it is this was this a targeted hate crime and
00:40:56
here's the thing where that gets a little dicey too right may maybe somebody comes let's just continue on
00:41:03
this little Think Tank Adventure here maybe somebody comes into the home and yes they are targeting one of the
00:41:08
individuals that live there or they're targeting Joseph specifically because he's a a gay rights attorney right
00:41:16
Robert Juan or look V like you said Victor was the point person of milk and yes the milk ads got milk right maybe
00:41:25
somebody out there is like you know you know what I don't got milk I got lactose
00:41:30
intolerant or I hate the got milk people yeah and and you're trying to you keep making me thirsty for milk but every
00:41:36
time I I drink it I [ __ ] myself so I'm going to stab you to death some some IBS
00:41:43
person it's a possibility well but here but also hold on hold yeah so we have Joe fighting for gay rights we have
00:41:52
Victor fighting for milk's rights and we have this Dylan character and he he's kind of strange and he and
00:42:01
he uh makes these weird trips to Thailand and and he has multiple jobs and it doesn't seem like he has and look
00:42:10
not everybody finds their path in life we haven't even got to the SNM stuff yet right and yeah and then on top of that
00:42:19
we do find and I this might be jumping the gun a little bit but we do find an online sexual profile for I believe Joe
00:42:27
and so then you start questioning have and then okay so let's just dive into some of the real real quick because I
00:42:36
didn't get to finish my thought in what the detectives were saying about the stairs they they called into question
00:42:41
how loud those stairs were creaking and the hardwood floors and all that and the
00:42:46
hardwood uh floor steps themselves but what they're saying is simply this and what I'm echoing here and actually
00:42:55
adding some additional words even the burglar was of the cat type in super stealth mode and made it up those steps
00:43:01
without making a single noise the problem then becomes you stab someone there's a scream at some point and now
00:43:09
you have to flee you don't walk and slip and slide Slither your way out of that out of that townhouse you're running
00:43:17
you're forced gumping it out of that house yeah unless you're and you're going toppy snake you're going to you're
00:43:23
going to clip and clop on those stairs as you go down 16 right steps 16 steep stairs down to flee
00:43:33
again back out that back door well the prosecutors point something out and I just want to be clear about this as
00:43:40
clear as we can make it the prosecutors believe that there is evidence that if there was an intruder they didn't just
00:43:48
open up the door and see Robert laying there and then stab him there that the Intruder would have had to walk around
00:43:56
to the other other side of the bed cuz if you just think about how a knife is yeah you have the sharp in and you have
00:44:04
the doll end so the stab marks the sharp end are pointing away from the door so unless the individual held the knife the
00:44:16
wrong way that you or the the way the wrong way that you'd think somebody would hold the knife to stab an
00:44:24
individual the stab marks don't make sense and they would almost have to reach across his body which which
00:44:30
depends on right way wrong way some people would pick up the knife sharp side right you're going to stab in a
00:44:36
downward motion that's why you're going to get that earthquake effect that wake effect on the bed if he stabbed on the
00:44:42
bed right which I don't think he even was stabbed on the bed and I think wake effect not mentioned I don't think
00:44:47
anywhere else is indicative that he wasn't stabbed on the bed but you have identical stab marks and if you were to
00:44:56
hold it so that the blade would be toward you when you come down with it that might be one way you watch movies
00:45:04
and I'm guessing that this is how they might do it in military or or mercenaries or whomever out there people
00:45:08
that are better skilled with a knife than yours truly but in movies like under siege and all those other movies
00:45:14
you regularly see the guys hold it where the blade is toward your the person you're trying to attack even though
00:45:20
you're holding it the blade pointed side down right you got the handle blade is not up blade is down that's how you stab
00:45:27
someone right the other weird thing while we're on the stab for a minute here well there's a lot of people that
00:45:34
call into question that that knife wasn't the knife that was used to stab him right because the length of that
00:45:40
knife for it to be that knife it didn't go all the way in on all three stabs so it would have stopped short a little bit
00:45:49
on each stab and they're almost identical to the point where somebody says experts say look it would be nearly
00:45:56
impossible for somebody to replicate the same stab using this knife because it's too long
00:46:03
that that one of those wounds would have been deeper and so therefore they're saying a shorter knife must have made
00:46:10
these wounds and if in fact this is not the murder weapon then the story that these guys that live there are trying to
00:46:16
sell you is not true we are missing the murder weapon and then somebody took the
00:46:20
time to Stage the scene to make it look like this knife from our block was used to kill him yeah and so let's stay on
00:46:27
this knife for a little bit this this is a knife that we know comes from the kitchen it's from uh you know one of
00:46:36
those blocks that have a bunch of different instruments if you will has multiple different knives they don't
00:46:43
pick the biggest knife they pick one that's roughly what about a 5 in Blade I believe yeah and so that's strange but
00:46:51
here's where look some people say I've I've reviewed this Kake and in my eyes that knife is the knife that was used
00:47:01
again the the stab marks not being long enough I think is a red flag but I think
00:47:06
the other red flag is we have an individual saying well the knife was on Robert's chest or the knife was inside
00:47:14
Robert Y and I pulled that out and then I placed it on the nightstand we have now out of the three individuals there's
00:47:25
only one saying they t touch the knife and that's Joe so we should find Joe's DNA on the knife we don't we should find
00:47:36
some kind of fingerprint on the knife Joe's fingerprint right we don't we think then at that point well maybe we
00:47:45
would find some DNA from the killer if Joe's not the killer we don't I mean obviously you can say that the the
00:47:52
Intruder would be wearing a glove but that doesn't stop the DNA a and the Fingerprints of Joe ending up on that
00:48:00
knife handle so it just doesn't make a lot of sense and then somebody can go well maybe they clean the knife off well
00:48:06
that shouldn't get rid of all DNA and that shouldn't get rid of all fingerprints unless you were purposely
00:48:13
trying to get rid of them and there's hardly any blood in the room right like the paramedic is saying I'm getting
00:48:18
there to the scene and I'm not seeing I'm seeing stab wounds I'm not seeing blood there's two little puddles of
00:48:25
Blood on the bed and so think about this if somebody comes in and stabs someone that when you
00:48:32
you into the body out of the body into the body out of the body and so on the out of the body is going to bring blood
00:48:39
up and out right and it's going to it's going to Splatter it and you'll have blood spatter on probably walls or
00:48:47
sheets or elsewhere within that room now unless the Intruder stabbed him in a way
00:48:52
and just got lucky enough that all of that that blood spatter ended up on themselves and They carried it out of
00:48:58
the home with them right then there should be blood spatter somewhere and then the other part of it is there's
00:49:06
there's not a whole lot of blood and you have the paramedic this is okay this is
00:49:09
the difference between the prosecution the detectives in the paramedic statements again I I I found another
00:49:17
discrepancy between what they're they're somewhat saying the same thing but one seems a little exaggerated right the
00:49:23
prosecutor and detectives say well it looks like he had been stabbed showered and then placed in the bed right however
00:49:33
the paramedic doesn't say that the paramedic says and and they're trying to relay the paramedic words to us I think
00:49:40
they just exaggerated it the paramedic actually says it looked like the victim had been wiped clean he doesn't say
00:49:47
showered he says wiped clean like there should be some blood on his chest resting on his chest and it looked like
00:49:56
somebody wiped down Robert's chest they do find Blood on the knife that is sitting on the nightstand or end table
00:50:04
that is next to the bed yes as the captain pointed out they don't find fingerprints palm prints or DNA so
00:50:11
whoever used that knife if in fact that was the knife that stabbed Robert they didn't they didn't get cut in the
00:50:18
process and leave their own blood on that knife what it why would that not be the knife that that was used on Robert
00:50:25
captain I don't think we've got to this point yet well there's a knife missing from Dylan's room yes when they conduct
00:50:33
a search of the home they find a lot of things that are let's say interesting to
00:50:39
their investigation yeah and one of the things that they find is a knife set now
00:50:44
from our understanding The Knife Set was gifted to Dylan from his mother is that
00:50:49
correct yeah and well that's what she claims yes it's a three-piece set right two knives and like a fork and it's it's
00:50:56
nice expensive looking decorative it comes in a beautiful case according to the detectives we find one knife and the
00:51:02
large fork in there in this case but clearly a smaller knife that is missing why is it missing we think it's missing
00:51:09
because they used it on Robert and then concealed it or managed to get rid of it
00:51:13
before we were able to search the home the interesting thing and cool thing here I want to I would like to know when
00:51:18
they conducted the search number one I would guess that you could get the search warrant rather quickly you find
00:51:24
somebody that's been murdered in a home there's probable cause to search the home or you wonder if the three
00:51:30
individuals gave them permission to to search because it again it's it's this weird thing because by them going down
00:51:39
to the station right after the EMTs take their friend away you can look at something like that and
00:51:48
go well that's them you know trying to cooperate with law enforcement but then you could also get well but if they're
00:51:57
trying to cover their tracks then they're going to want to look like they're willing to be open and honest
00:52:04
with law enforcement as well and so same way with if they gave them permission to
00:52:09
search well we got nothing to hide we told you was an intruder so this case is just so bizarre the
00:52:20
knife that we're talking about from the set that was found in Dylan's room in his possessions that that was missing
00:52:28
Dylan and his mother both tell police yes when when when that set was gifted to Dylan the knife was she had kept the
00:52:38
knife or the knife was already missing I the a lot of the statements are that she
00:52:43
kept the knife well that would be easily you could easily sort that out if she could produce that knife for you right
00:52:49
but even if she could she had enough time to go get another knife set to try to save her son from getting charged
00:52:58
with murder depending on the age of the knife set right correct you might like I
00:53:03
have some knife sets at my home that are were my grandmothers I would doubt that
00:53:09
I might be able to to with the internet nowadays but I wonder how much effort I would have to go to to replace one of
00:53:14
them but I think what's more fascinating you know they they don't find this knife
00:53:21
in the knife set but I think it's more fascinating what law en enforcement does find in Dylan's room and it's not just
00:53:31
look a lot of people have joy toys and sex toys we've done a couple of ads for some wonderful Joy toys and I'm so glad
00:53:39
that you have read those and not me because I'd probably just sound completely inappropriate the whole time
00:53:47
um but should we stay in Robert's room before we go into Dylan's room see this is where it gets difficult for us here
00:53:54
in the garage and and I'm sure other other people have struggled with this as well probably even the documentary The
00:54:00
Good folks that put together the documentary for peacock there's so much stuff that you could get into with this
00:54:06
case and it's very quickly to go round and round right and spin your tires a little bit trying to sort the stuff out
00:54:12
make sense of some of it and figure out who's to blame that you can get lost in the sauce as we say here in the garage
00:54:19
and so in Robert's room we'll get to Dylan's room in just a quick second okay so okay let's just be clear we're going
00:54:26
to get to the Joy toys yes so stick around but in Robert's room some other things that are that are interesting you
00:54:33
find there is a bloody tow in there there now we know that the 911 operator is telling Victor hey you got to you we
00:54:40
got to stop the blood you got to get some tows and put them on top of of our victim here and press down and press
00:54:46
down and stop that blood till the paramedics get there and can try to save this guy's life so you would expect to
00:54:52
find a bloody towel there however there's not a whole lot of blood on this towel there's not a whole lot of blood
00:54:57
on the bed it has been suggested that the blood there's two blood spots found on the blood bed that either the blood
00:55:05
from the wounds came up you know bubbled up to the point that it rested on the body and at some point had to run down
00:55:13
the the top or the side of the uh torso right which would have caused a little bit of puddling again everyone saying we
00:55:20
didn't find as much blood as we thought there's no blood spatter or splatter to to be recognized or that is observed at
00:55:27
the house or in that room let's say even more important the blood on the towel not as much as they thought they would
00:55:34
find they do find again this is in support that there is no Intruder they find Robert Juan's belongings right near
00:55:42
him and you know you go into a room your room or you stay elsewhere you put you take off your your belongings and you
00:55:48
set them down he had he had organized and set down two wallets because he carried a dummy wallet in case somebody
00:55:54
tried to mug him two wallets that were not touched I hope I never live in a city that I have to carry around a fake
00:56:01
wallet if you do if you live in a a tough City you you put your wallet in your front front pocket so somebody
00:56:07
can't pull it out the back they also found his watch he had an expensive watch not touched a
00:56:13
Blackberry which would have been considered expensive as well not touched and a some Reports say he had a
00:56:21
Blackberry and a cell phone which does make sense to me because I remember years ago when the blackberries were
00:56:28
popular those that's it's essentially a different item than a cell phone uh it it behaves a lot like a smartphone there
00:56:35
were the phones back then weren't so smart uh it did a lot of things and a lot of times blackberries were issued to
00:56:42
uh professionals hardworking very busy professionals because it was a way that you could send emails and you could you
00:56:50
they had I think something called Lotus Notes like a group that works together could go in and create notes and then
00:56:58
manipulate them so you could work as a team through your blackberry whether you at work or not so cell phone Blackberry
00:57:05
watch two wallets none of that taken but he stabbed so that goes to the thought that maybe there was no Intruder that
00:57:12
would point no Intruder what does point to Intruder is the way that Robert Juan is dressed he's wearing his college
00:57:20
shirt and shorts they check with his wife Kathy says yes that's what he would have worn to B
00:57:27
so that is indicative that he did get ready for bed and then laid down on the bed they also found his mouth guard
00:57:34
inside his mouth his wife says that was the last thing that he would do before going to bed every night is put the
00:57:40
mouth guard in so you have things in this room that are suggestive of the Intruder Theory and against the Intruder
00:57:47
Theory now back to the knife real quick the prosecution has a big problem because they don't find any fibers of
00:57:53
his shirt on the night they're saying if he was stabbed and and he had to have been stabbed through that
00:58:00
shirt it's the only thing that makes sense because the the cuts on the shirt line up damn near perfectly with the
00:58:06
wounds of the body so they're saying that you should find fabric little bits and pieces of fabric from that shirt on
00:58:14
the knife when it went through the shirt and then into the Skin So if that knife
00:58:18
is the instrument that killed him or is responsible for the stab marks then we should could find like you said those
00:58:27
Fabrics but we don't and so again you go back through Joe's story I found the knife on him or I found the knife in him
00:58:36
we find we do find pieces of terry cloth on there little fabric pieces of terry cloth which the prosecution will say is
00:58:44
suggestive that somebody used the towel got the towel nice and bloody and then transferred blood uh either wiped blood
00:58:53
from the the knife or was using the blood on the towel to place it on the knife to make it look like that knife
00:59:00
was used I don't know man I I if I'm trying to sell the Intruder Theory to law enforcement yeah I don't think I'm
00:59:09
going and picking a knife from my block and using it and going to all these ways
00:59:13
to manipulate a knife and then try to tell you that's the knife that that had to be used it's got the victim's blood
00:59:19
on it I would much rather have if you're going to get rid of a knife because we know that the the home was searched and
00:59:25
they didn't find a kn and they're saying that the knife that wasn't found was the
00:59:28
potential murder weapon why wouldn't you just not use a knife inside the home figure out how to get rid of the knife
00:59:34
that was used unless it was one that's obviously missing from the Butcher Block and just say well yeah of course we're
00:59:41
not finding a knife because the freaking Intruder took it with them when they left right so the knife thing doesn't
00:59:47
make a whole lot of sense to me what one thing that's not brought up in the documentary when they talk about the
00:59:53
specifics of the knife one thing they did find on the knife is pieces of his chest hair so now could that been
01:00:03
transferred in another way yes right it doesn't mean that that knife was used to
01:00:07
stab him but I tend to lean to the idea that that was in fact the knife that was
01:00:12
used unfortunately on Robert ju right but then the question becomes why do we not find fingerprints palm prints or DNA
01:00:22
yeah why would if you're completely innocent why would one of those individuals Joe Victor or Dylan why
01:00:31
would they clean the knife so much that they then had to put blood back on the knife it's it's just yeah I I actually
01:00:41
don't think that they put blood back on the knife I think it was used and they just set it there how how do you get the
01:00:48
the cuts to come from a five-inch knife and fall half an inch short or whatever it was identical on three different
01:00:55
wounds I go back to the idea that you didn't find any fingerprints or DNA of another person on that knife on the hilt
01:01:01
or the handle but you did find terry cloth I happen to believe that the shirt was on and that one of the persons that
01:01:10
lived in that home used that knife and wrapped the terry cloth towel around the handle and the hilt right and stabbed
01:01:18
them and the reason why it's identical in in the depth of the Stab Wound is because that towel was not moved or
01:01:28
manipulated after the first stab it was used boom boom boom and I actually believe the reason why I think the towel
01:01:36
they found in that room was the one used wrapped around that knife I think that the reason why you're not finding a
01:01:41
whole lot of blood on that knife is I think he was dead before those stab wounds were even administered
01:01:52
[Music] want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage each and every week
01:02:03
and I want to wish you a very very Merry turkey day the most glorious day and weekend of them all I I cannot tell you
01:02:13
how much I love this extended weekend for me it starts Wednesday afternoon and carries itself all the way to Monday
01:02:22
morning so enjoy every single minute of it drink them if you got them tall hands
01:02:28
in the air do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners this week captain we're going to be
01:02:34
recommending the burden Empire on blood this is a fantastic True Crime Deep dive
01:02:40
podcast about a double homicide in the Bronx the burden Empire on blood is brought To Us by award-winning
01:02:47
journalist Steve Fishman who we had on our amazing show off the Record very recently Steve worked this case for
01:02:55
years getting to the bottom of what really happened Steve has interviewed such True Crime figures as Bernie maof
01:03:03
and David burkwitz AKA The Son of Sam you can find the burden Empire on blood podcast listening using the same method
01:03:13
or apparatus however you are hearing my voice right now shout out to Steve and shout out to everybody for this
01:03:20
wonderful Thanksgiving yeah if you haven't listened to the interview we did with Steve on off the record it was
01:03:27
freaking awesome and until next week be good be kind and don't live [Music] [Applause]
01:03:48
[Music] [Applause] [Music] this episode is brought to you by Nordstrom it's a season of Wonder all
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the way at Nordstrom you'll find the best gifts for everyone you love plus party ready looks for every occasion
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it's easy with free shipping and returns inst store order pickup and more shop today in stores and at nordstrom.com