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[Music] % [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:46
for listening I'm your host Nick and this guy this is a guy who thinks hand sanitizer is called ham sanitizer hello
00:01:54
Captain you can call me the captain but my friends call me Julius Pepperwood it's good to be seen and it's good to
00:02:01
see you I'm from [Music] Chicago today we are featuring okay pills by the good folks over Anthem
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Brewing Company in Oaklahoma City Garage grade 3 and 3/4 bottle caps out of five
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according to Anthem Brewing okay pills is not the answer to all of your problems but with a heavy dose of German
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pilsner malt to start and European hops to finish it may be close and this week's beer was brought to us by these
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good folks right here first up cheers to Renee from Olympia Washington and a big
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kisses to dainty Dana in Gnome Alaska thanks to everybody for filling up the fridge for this week's show and also
00:03:21
thank you to everyone for your five-star reviews yeah and I was telling you off the Record that uh if everybody bought a
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then we'll never have to do another ad and that is enough of the beers near all right everybody gather around grab a
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chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime as many as 1,000 people packed into an
00:04:15
Oklahoma Church Monday to say goodbye to a prominent member of the state's religious community Pastor Carol Daniels
00:04:22
was found dead inside a small town Church late last month apparently the victim of a violent attack Daniel
00:04:29
suffered dashes to her neck and throat plus stab wounds to other parts of her body Daniels traveled to the church
00:04:35
every Sunday to deliver a sermon those who knew her are remembering the good she did in the community she's always
00:04:41
been the same person every time you saw her always very sweet uh just always love God love people just the sweetest
00:04:50
person you ever wanted to know always supportive always love people always willing you know to jump in and Tackle
00:04:57
you know a task um always want to help help people that was just her vision her mission was always going to help someone
00:05:03
along the way during Monday's service mourners were asked to pray for whoever took Daniel's life some say the person
00:05:10
responsible would have benefited from spending some time with the pastor there's absolutely no logic other than
00:05:16
that person didn't know the Lord Jesus Christ and if they had sat down and spent some time with Pastor Daniels they
00:05:21
would have come to know him and maybe made some other decisions a $10,000 reward has been offered for information
00:05:27
leading to an arrest and conviction in the Ed Donahue the Associated [Music] Press mother and Pastor Carol Daniels
00:05:43
lived in Oklahoma City Oklahoma her son Alvin describes Carol as a loving mother
00:05:50
someone who was always joking and always taking care of her family she was an extremely giving mother in person back
00:05:57
in 2009 pastor Carol Daniels was 61 years old on Sunday August 23rd she got in her car and drove 60 miles or so
00:06:08
Southwest to anad Darko Oklahoma this was her routine for about four or five years every week on Sundays driving 60
00:06:17
mil to Christ holy Sanctified Church in a rundown area of anad Darko she drove to the church to preach or if no one was
00:06:27
there she would stay and pray anad Darko Oklahoma is described as a small town that in 2009 was economically
00:06:37
depressed about a half mile from the church is a neighborhood that was described as quote a pretty high crime
00:06:44
area troubled by drugs including cracked cocaine and also having a large transient population now on the other
00:06:53
hand we have this beautiful person we have Pastor Carol Fay Daniels who is a Beacon of light described as a champion
00:07:02
for the helpless and the Hopeless there to serve God and the community she kept the doors open each Sunday morning
00:07:10
waiting there with open arms sometimes she would go out into the streets offering food and Goodwill to those who
00:07:17
needed it most ask anyone in the small town Pastor Daniels was loved yeah but it was a pretty small congregation right
00:07:26
well Christ's holy Sanctified church was a tiny Church it it was a small aging white building with a big black cross on
00:07:34
the front now they did have a marquee outside which listed the worship times as well as Pastor Daniel's name in a
00:07:42
simple message that said God loves you now on August 23rd 2009 Pastor Daniels after making the long drive to the
00:07:52
church she was seen at 10:00 a.m. outside of the church yeah and she won't be discovered until about
00:07:59
11:40 because retired Bishop silky Wilson Jr and his wife are going to arrive at the church now they get a
00:08:07
little scared so they don't go into the church and they call law enforcement and
00:08:13
then law enforcement is going to find the pastor so the way that this works is the bishop Wilson and his wife they
00:08:20
arrive around 11:40 a.m. at the church okay and this is a fairly regular meeting it didn't take place every
00:08:28
Sunday day but this was a fairly regular thing for Bishop Wilson to meet Pastor Daniels at the church right okay so they
00:08:37
pull up everything seems normal and they get to the front door the problem is the
00:08:43
front door is locked well this is highly unusual um Pastor I'm sorry Bishop Wilson couldn't recall another occasion
00:08:51
where he arrived and the door was locked so he uses his Cane to knock on the door
00:08:58
but there's no answer and Bishop Wilson said that the church was too quiet as if no one was home and
00:09:05
this was confusing to him and his wife because Pastor Daniel's car was out front now he said that they shouted they
00:09:13
tapped on the Windows they even drove around the building hitting the car horn and still they got no response from
00:09:20
anyone inside the church yeah I mean I think that this seems a little off but think about it you go to a small church
00:09:27
it's a small building you know that your friend is supposed to be there you knock
00:09:31
there's no answer and her car's there that's all you need to really get spooked right mhm well this is also not
00:09:38
a great area uh I want to point that out they have a pretty low murder rate uh for that time in that that town but this
00:09:47
is not a great area uh this is kind of a rundown side of town and there's to put it as as politely as I
00:09:56
can there's there's some sketchy people in this neighborhood okay so what happens here is he has his wife alert
00:10:04
the Police now according to the incident report the call that went out was for a
00:10:10
welfare check at the church and regarding Pastor Daniels so at approximately 12: noon officer Ashley
00:10:18
bur was dispatched to 305 Northeast First Street upon arriving at 12:02 p.m. he met with the reporting party Bishop
00:10:29
Wilson and his wife mhm some of you may have noticed the very fast response time
00:10:36
we should note that the police station is less than one city block from the church officer burus entered the
00:10:43
building from the side door once inside he discovered the brutalized body of Pastor Daniels the officer immediately
00:10:52
called for back up and within minutes officer burus and two other officers cleared the building and and secured the
00:11:00
scene due to the heinous nature of the crime the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations were called in five
00:11:09
officers waited outside the church guarding the scene until the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations arrived
00:11:15
on the scene now the state Bureau of Investigation the lead agency in the case tried to pull fingerprints or
00:11:25
uncover even a shred of DNA evidence at the scene they got neither what was the early information that came out about
00:11:32
the investigation well so there there were some details that were very publicly known very early on in the
00:11:41
investigation and these come from statements of people working the case and people around the case so first we
00:11:48
have Cherokee Ballard is the state medical examiner office spokeswoman who said quote a preliminary autopsy deemed
00:11:56
Daniel's death a homicide caused by multiple sharp force injuries Carol Daniels suffered numerous gashes to her
00:12:04
neck and throat as well as a stab wounds to her chest back stomach and hands her
00:12:11
body had been quote staged in an unnatural position and then we have Dr William Manion forensic pathologist said
00:12:21
Carol Daniels appeared to have been left in the form of a cross with both arms outstretched at her sides her head was
00:12:29
nearly decapitated by the force of deep stabs to her neck and throat according to local newspapers and
00:12:37
their sources the body of Carol Daniels was staged behind the church altar Daniel's clothing had been removed
00:12:44
possibly to hide evidence or as some kind of trophy from the grizzly scene investigators say her killer
00:12:52
methodically sprayed a dissolving chemical around her body in an effort to destroy DNA evidence evidence at the
00:12:59
crime scene and then district attorney Brett Burns said I've prosecuted over 50 murders this is the most horrific crime
00:13:08
scene I've ever witnessed so I mean it sounds like it's premeditated if they're bringing some kind of cleaning solution
00:13:16
well what's not clear there is it could have been something that was found inside the church itself yeah very true
00:13:23
um and then I do want to offer up one final statement this is from Jessica Brown state of Investigation spokeswoman
00:13:30
which going forward just to save time we will we will say OSBI uh she said authorities do not have
00:13:38
any suspects and are offering a $110,000 reward for information leading to an arrest and conviction she says right now
00:13:47
we have more questions than answers the few answers we do have we want to hold on to that might help us in the long run
00:13:55
Pastor Carol Daniels Funeral Services were held August 3rd 31st in Oklahoma City and as you heard in the trailer
00:14:02
there there was like a thousand people turned out for uh her funeral services her son Alvin Daniels said quote all my
00:14:11
mother wanted to do was preach and her funeral would be another chance for her to spread the word of God so any first
00:14:19
thoughts there Captain regarding the early information that came out after the discovery of this horrific murder
00:14:26
well even though it's a small congreg the problem here with such a public figure is these pastors are hired to do
00:14:36
funerals they're hired to do weddings they normally councel marriage counsel people outside their congregation and
00:14:45
then you take a typical congregation let's say it only holds let's say 100 people but the congregation could be 500
00:14:53
people or if you think about the congregation members that only show up on E Easter or just Christmas now you're
00:15:00
talking about uh a thousand people M so and then you mentioned earlier this is not a great area so churches are known
00:15:12
to take collections that evidence by taking the clothes the cleaning of the body or the cleaning
00:15:21
solution M and the manner in which her body is found to me lends it to to be a a murder for a reason mhm but then her
00:15:31
being a pastor and it being a church you also wonder is this um is the motive a burglary gone bad yeah I mean really
00:15:42
when you start to think about this you could have a a bevy of motives here and I want to be clear I've never been to
00:15:50
anad Darko it it could be the most fabulous place in the world I'm simply going off of what was stated in the
00:15:57
newspapers thecal local newspapers at the time I've been to Oklahoma City great City uh but they were saying that
00:16:04
this part of town is a high crime uh rate area and like you pointed out there you wonder do we have a situation where
00:16:15
this is either a premeditated murder by somebody that knew her and and wanted her killed for whatever reason or two
00:16:24
could this have just been somebody looking to to make an easy robbery and I say easy robbery
00:16:31
because the way that they describe this scenario and the way that Pastor Carol Daniels went about her business is that
00:16:40
she would arrive at the church and the the church's front door is unlocked and the doors are open to the public come in
00:16:49
you know seek if you're seeking worship if you're seeking prayer if you're seeking advice from the great Pastor
00:16:57
whatever our doors are open to you all walks of life do we have anything that we think is possible pieces of evidence
00:17:06
well we have a bunch of really interesting things here some of it being evidence and some of it being
00:17:12
speculation but before we get into that I want to point out something that that we've already covered is what the the
00:17:21
investigators were saying at the time that right now we have more questions than we do have answers and answers that
00:17:27
we have want to hold on to for now because they could help us in the long run and that's where I think that
00:17:33
there's some of this questionable movements and behaviors that we should bring up here um you know cuz I've seen
00:17:42
on some message boards and some websites where there is some speculation and people that that in a roundabout way
00:17:51
suggest that they find The Bishop's story a little strange that just finding the locked door door trying to get some
00:18:00
kind of response from inside the church that this put him on high alert enough that he has his wife contact the local
00:18:08
police M so I I think we should dive into that real quick because what we have here is uh Bishop Wilson is an
00:18:18
elderly gentleman we already said he's using a cane at the time some people have questioned when the police arrive
00:18:26
at the scene Okay so we have the front door that's locked right but we know from the incident report that the
00:18:33
responding officer entered the church through a side door now it's unclear on how the officer gained access to and
00:18:42
through that side door because some people have suggested well why wouldn't the bishop and his wife have tried the
00:18:47
side door you know hinting that it could have been unlocked right and we don't know
00:18:54
from the incident report 100% if they found that door to be unlocked or or here's the other scenario there may
00:19:02
have been obvious signs that somebody broke into that side door right and so not only would the officer be able to
00:19:09
access the building from that side door but that would also scare the the good bishop and his wife to say you know
00:19:18
we're not we're not 20 years old honey and I'm not packing heat maybe we shouldn't head in there we don't know
00:19:23
what we're walking into right so I think we should clearly point that out I've also o found one bit of interesting
00:19:31
thought and I and I'm I'm going to say that this is speculation regarding the side door because I couldn't find other
00:19:37
stories to back this up One Source said that the door was removed as as evidence that at some
00:19:46
point the investigators took that door off the hinges and made it evidence and the speculation being that if this would
00:19:54
have been some type of hate crime or some kind kind of satanic related crime that there may have been something drawn
00:20:04
or painted on that door and therefore they removed it because that's something only the killer would know but part of
00:20:12
my speculation on this is going a bit of the other direction I wonder if the door
00:20:18
was simply broken into but again that was something that the killer would know that one the door
00:20:25
was broken into and and the possible method of breaking into that door as well and that could be another good
00:20:32
reason for removing it one thing that we didn't get to yet either Captain is okay
00:20:39
so you have what the papers are calling the posing of the body and we know that the we know that Pastor Daniels was stri
00:20:46
nude the clothing her clothing was not found at the scene we know that a cleaning agent or some type of cleaning
00:20:53
solution chemicals were dumped on the body but on top of of that some of her hair was
00:21:00
burned and some of the articles that you read will state that it was completely burned off that they burned off her hair
00:21:08
if you read the autopsy they burn off a good majority of her hair but she still had hair when she was found mm so here's
00:21:18
one it's very strange it is very strange it's what I'm getting at here is it seems like we have a situation where
00:21:25
she's brutally attacked and I'm not going to go through the autopsy uh from top to bottom in this
00:21:31
situation just trust me in my words when I say this was a vicious attack and I think the captain was getting to
00:21:39
something there that that could very likely be correct that this could be premeditated and it could be somebody
00:21:46
that either wanted to seek revenge against the good pastor or had it out for her for some reason that if when we
00:21:54
talk about Overkill if you want to go find find the autopsy and read it yourself you can
00:22:00
what you will find there is obvious signs of Overkill and then on top of that the killer took the time to confuse
00:22:08
the scene to do things at the scene of the crime and had some time there they didn't just flee they didn't kill and
00:22:17
flee whoever did this they stayed with the body for a little bit of time all right well let's go over the situation
00:22:24
it's T-shirt time the cabs are here this is what doesn't make any sense to me if
00:22:28
that door has some kind of drawing on it maybe some symbolism then is the taking of the
00:22:36
clothes is that symbolism is the burning of the hair some kind of symbolism mhm the way the body is laid out is that
00:22:44
some kind of symbolism we we've seen this in other cases where the neck the neck injuries are so deep and almost
00:22:53
cause causes decapitation is are all these things some kind of symbolism okay so I do have
00:23:03
some possible evidence but I also have some really good thoughts on all of that what do you want to hit first well let's
00:23:09
start with the evidence and we'll just keep those in the back of our thoughts okay so first we have a possible
00:23:16
eyewitness a man claimed he saw the murder suspect leaving the church this is Robert Richardson said he was across
00:23:25
the street from the church in anad Darko where the murder took place Robert said
00:23:30
quote this guy was coming out he was covered in blood he had a ski mask on he had a knife in his hand and it was
00:23:38
dripping blood Richardson said that he was at a car wash so there's a car wash across
00:23:45
the street from this church MH and this is where he says that he was when he saw
00:23:50
the man emerge from the Christ holy Sanctified church he said it wasn't until a few hours later that he found
00:23:58
out what had actually happened he said quote a friend of mine said pastor Daniels got killed and that just hurt me
00:24:04
to my heart that was my pastor Richardson said Richardson said he didn't immediately go to police right
00:24:11
away because he was drinking at the time when he saw the man and he didn't want police to question his credibility
00:24:19
however Richardson said he eventually went to police and investigators and told them what had happened and they
00:24:25
questioned him it's reported that Robert Richardson is homeless and was possibly
00:24:32
living behind that actual car wash at the time right neighbors said he makes a living doing odd jobs around town
00:24:41
Richardson says his story is the truth but there are contradictions in Richardson's story does he have
00:24:48
a a good look at this individual does does he think it's a female or male does he think it's a a white man or black man
00:24:57
well that's where we have some problems with Richardson's story so he was interviewed by local news by multiple
00:25:05
local news stations right and in these published reports he gives a different story right so in one report he says
00:25:16
that the blood soaked suspect was black and baldheaded but then he tells news9 that
00:25:24
the suspect was wearing a ski mask so you wouldn't be able to tell one or the other if the suspect had hair or not
00:25:32
that's that's the my pet peeve is When somebodys U this one time in college we had this guy that came up and he was
00:25:41
yelling at us because we're partying and he said look uh I got some friends over
00:25:47
and uh and we're having a conversation downstairs and we're trying to sleep and it was like which one is it right it
00:25:55
can't be both at the same time well I I tell you what I don't believe Robert Richardson's story but I do this makes
00:26:03
you suspicious of him right well I do like the cut of his jib because it was presented to him that they're like hey
00:26:10
there's contradictions in these stories that you're saying and he says if anyone
00:26:15
doesn't want to believe me they can just go about their business so here's here's the big
00:26:21
problem with his statement not only do they not match up but what I just read from our portions Tak from a news story
00:26:29
in that particular news story it almost makes it sound like he gave this statement to police later that day the
00:26:35
day of the murder or the night of the murder or maybe even the next day but the problem with that is we know this
00:26:43
now to not be true so this does not add to the credibility of this gentleman it just takes away from it so not only it
00:26:50
does his story is it different depending on who he's talking to but he didn't immediately go to police at any time and
00:26:58
I know we have his statement saying hey I was drinking but from the information that I could find he didn't go to Police
00:27:06
from anywhere until 7 days to as many as 11 days after the murder M another reason why the story is changing because
00:27:13
he might just not remember well and it's it's difficult to narrow down exactly when he went to police because both the
00:27:23
anad Darko police and OSBI they refused to comment publicly on Mr Richardson's statement or if they
00:27:31
even spoke with him at all so the first time I could find Mr Richardson popping up in the media was already after the
00:27:39
reward money was announced which was initially $110,000 and one week later was bumped
00:27:46
up to $115,000 MH so you can take that for what you will that's likely not evidence second police did recover video
00:27:57
surveillance footage from a convenience store adjacent to the church this footage shows Pastor Daniel's driving up
00:28:06
in front of the church on Broadway to park her car at 10:00 a.m. mhm now back in 2009 police were pretty tight lipped
00:28:13
about what was on or not on that camera footage for the record this is footage from two cameras both keep in mind a
00:28:24
distance away but one captures kind of a side view of the front of the church and
00:28:31
the other camera is facing the other direction now the third possible thing we could talk about in relationship to
00:28:40
evidence is the murder weapon We Know by the autopsy findings that the murder was
00:28:46
committed using sharp force so very likely a knife and judging by the report I read likely a large one mhm this knife
00:28:56
was not found at this the scene so no murder weapon left at the scene what they did find was a large knife reported
00:29:04
to be 6 to 10 in in length recovered from across the street from the church at that car wash that we've already
00:29:11
mentioned now unfortunately we now know that this knife was eliminated so this this knife
00:29:18
was not the murder weapon I don't know what cleared that knife but it's been publicly stated that that was eliminated
00:29:26
as Mur right but this goes along with the reports that this is a rough area when you're finding knives randomly at
00:29:36
the car wash right this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays
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Cellular when Freedom calls we're here to answer call us at 1888 [Music] Freedom all right we are back cheers
00:31:53
mates and before we get into it too much here here Captain a belated birthday a happy belated birthday to you there's a
00:32:02
cheers all right through the glass happy 420 man while we're on the topic of items that were not found at the crime
00:32:11
scene we have to keep in mind that someone stripped Carol Daniels after killing her the pastor's clothes were
00:32:18
taken from the scene so some have suggested that this could mean one or two of the following that either one
00:32:26
this was a sexually motivated crime two the clothing was taken as a trophy this would be possibly because the offender
00:32:35
is a serial killer or maybe a Satanist and three the clothing was taken to eliminate evidence and or
00:32:43
confuse the crime scene yeah it just seems like with the cleaning solution that maybe the clothes were taken to get
00:32:51
rid of evidence I think that's the most likely scenario regarding sexually motivated crime there was no there was
00:32:59
no sexual assault believed to have taken place during the commission of this murder and I understand that it doesn't
00:33:06
have to that does not have to occur for it to be a sexually motivated crime but I'm with you Captain it seems to me if
00:33:14
they're going to go to if the Killer is going to go to the lengths of spending time at the crime scene to remove the
00:33:21
victim's clothing then they're very likely doing that to eliminate evidence and or infus the crime scene now
00:33:29
regarding the report of the body being posed according to investigators working the case there are only three reasons
00:33:36
Pastor Daniel's body would have been posed in such a way one it was a crime of sexual fantasy slf frustration this
00:33:45
is the most common reason to find a body posed sexual fantasy or to give the killer sexual pleasure two it was done
00:33:54
out of anger and retaliation where someone does does this to get back at the victim and to further degrade them
00:34:03
even after death three it was done with the intention of confusing investigators
00:34:10
to make the scene look like one thing when it's actually about something else knowing which can give
00:34:18
investigators insight to the killer it is a key piece of evidence only the killer would know which would be
00:34:25
critical during interrogation now online sleuther some have added a fourth possibility Pastor Daniels was
00:34:33
killed as a religious statement and her body was posed to serve as some kind of biblical
00:34:40
Tableau the interesting thing here is out of all of those scenarios we have we have some that line
00:34:48
up with the possibilities in regards to removing the clothing as well MH and one
00:34:53
of those being to confuse the investigators to confuse the crime scene and I think that could be exactly what
00:35:02
we have here but I think what we what we've not got into is a fifth possibility okay so we have an expert
00:35:12
who who was active in this case and he has written dozens of books on the many facets of homicides including an 800
00:35:22
page text that is widely known as the quote Bible of homicide investigations in fact copies of this sits on detective
00:35:32
desk Across the Nation this is a very popular um textbook now this expert wouldn't talk specifically about Pastor
00:35:40
Daniel's case but did discuss some of the clues left at the scene and regarding the posing of her body he says
00:35:49
quote if the body was posed I can State unequivocally it's extremely rare circumstances he says less than 1% of
00:35:59
all homicides present sexually posed victims so keeping that in mind it seems more likely that maybe she wasn't posed
00:36:09
at all that the body may have just been in that manner left in that manner for whatever reason just by happen stance
00:36:19
and that people have speculated that she was posed and I think that's that's probably a pretty good conclusion to
00:36:27
come to in this without knowing for certain because you would have a situation where we have a a murdered
00:36:34
Pastor found inside of a church and if she's found lying on her back with her arms spread out it may seem that
00:36:43
somebody put her in that manner when after undressing her and in uh doing you know confusing the crime scene that she
00:36:52
was just left that way that it was not intentional the way that she was found yeah it's it it's weird and and this
00:36:59
door I mean this perpetrator this uh manure soaked Wing maggot did he did he do a drawing on the door or not do we
00:37:11
well we don't know and to be honest with you I don't I could not confirm if that
00:37:16
story is in fact true that they the investigators actually removed the door so without being able to confirm that I
00:37:24
wanted to make sure we included it because I find it to be interesting an interesting portion of the investigation
00:37:32
if it did occur but without knowing that they even right without even knowing that it did happen it it's tough to
00:37:39
speculate why they would have would have removed it yeah and you would think at some point maybe they would even release
00:37:45
the drawing to see if anybody recognize that kind of artwork anywhere but you would think that if there's some kind of
00:37:54
satanic drawing that that leans all the other evidence towards that but again is that to throw people
00:38:03
off the scent or is that some legitimate piece of evidence we should be looking at well my whole thing regarding that
00:38:09
door is I lean toward the thought if it was removed that it was removed because of the method of how they they got in
00:38:18
through the door the killer got in through the door less likely than a drawing because I think that this this
00:38:25
investigation has had it's it's it's been a roller coaster ride there are times when it pops back into the media
00:38:31
and it seems to be a very active investigation I think that at some point if there was a drawing they would say
00:38:39
there was a drawing they wouldn't tell us what the drawing was or you know go into detail about it but I think they
00:38:46
could clear that up because we have the investigators publicly speculating on to
00:38:52
as to the reasons why the clothing was removed and if the body was ped so if there was some type of drawing or
00:39:00
graffiti that was left on that door I think they would know why the clothing was removed and the motivation behind
00:39:08
the murder and maybe the Breakin altogether do you feel that the removing of the clothes is more towards removing
00:39:17
of evidence 100% like less sexual right 100% I I think that the the clothing was
00:39:23
removed because of evidence I think there's a a decent chance that if a large knife was used in the commission
00:39:29
of this murder we've talked about this many times before a knife is a dangerous weapon not only for the victim but for
00:39:36
the offender because a lot of times the offender will injure themselves in the course of the attack as well well if if
00:39:42
they if they bled onto her clothes or suspected that they may have they removing those clothes would be key then
00:39:49
dumping the the chemical agent on the body to to further degrade any possible evidence and then the burning of the
00:39:57
hair it it's almost to me seems to be very clearly somebody taking a lot of effort to to cover up the crime and and
00:40:06
and to hide evidence because if you kind of picture this you what I try to do sometimes is picture how I think this
00:40:13
could have went down so let's pretend that the door the side door was in fact somebody broke into it right it's very
00:40:21
likely that if somebody went in there with the intention of murder whether it be for revenge or religious purposes or
00:40:27
whatever if they went in there to the church with the purpose of murder or robbery that led to
00:40:33
murder uhuh we know that the front door was found locked it's very likely we know that that she arrived at at her
00:40:40
normal time it's very likely she would have entered the church through that front door the bishop was expecting to
00:40:46
find the front door unlocked it was only when he found it locked that he was alerted that something might be going on
00:40:52
I then think that he noticed that the side door was obvious L broken into and I think what could have happened here is
00:41:00
we may have an a killer that knew she would be alone in the church at that time and broke into the church earlier
00:41:11
much like we had the uh Missy beavers case where the the killer broke into the church before the victim arrives right
00:41:20
she's now in the church the offender attacks her kills her locks the front door to buy time to to do all these
00:41:30
other methods of the clothing the cleaning agent the burning of the hair to remove evidence from the crime scene
00:41:37
well again you go back to the knife being dangerous to the victim but also dangerous to the murderer so if the
00:41:46
murderer bleeds onto the victim's clothes then that would give reason to remove the clothes and it would give
00:41:55
reason to remove the panties and I'm I'm going to stick on that for going to come
00:42:01
back to that but also maybe there was blood and the hair therefore you dump a cleaning agent you then burn the hair
00:42:09
now you're trying to burn evidence because I would say the removing of the clothes is to cover
00:42:17
evidence but the fact that her underwear was taken to me that leans sexual that this guy's going to go home
00:42:27
and you know become a sausage milker but the the braw and panties being taken to
00:42:35
me well that's that's certainly a possibility I mean BTK there there are other individuals that that do that
00:42:42
exact thing because you like I said I mean but we don't know what they're trying to cover up right we don't know
00:42:48
why they're taking the clothes because it's possible that they bled on her or or whatever and then just
00:42:56
thought well if I'm going to take the clothes to cover up evidence I take all the clothes right and and potentially
00:43:01
confuse the crime scene yeah you know confuse the investigators as to what it is that they're actually looking at and
00:43:07
I think that whoever did this from from the evidence that's been made public yeah if that was their
00:43:14
intention they did a good job because it doesn't appear that that well as of 2009
00:43:21
I will say it didn't appear that the investigators at the time had a clear understanding of what the motive was
00:43:27
behind this murder yeah and one thing I do want to point out though too is that Carol
00:43:35
Daniels she put up one hell of a fight one hell of a struggle she was fighting for her life and defended herself to the
00:43:45
best of her ability and I say that because I think that that's where the offender that the
00:43:50
killer may have thought that there's a there's a u potential for a lot lot of evidence that they could have left
00:43:57
behind because the struggle was so was such such a tough one and so you you wonder where you go okay is this just
00:44:06
some really sick individual that's going to take all of the clothing for whatever
00:44:12
purposes later mhm or is this someone that's just really careful that in that moment is able to be overly cautious
00:44:21
I've already risk risked further detection by staying here longer to remove this piece and that piece why not
00:44:28
just take it all so I don't have to get home and and worry what they're going to
00:44:33
find at the crime scene yeah which makes you think that it's premeditation and if
00:44:38
there premeditation then it's somebody that she knew again we see that a lot of times
00:44:44
when there's a knife involved and especially like take the OJ Simpson trial or the OJ Simpson case and almost
00:44:56
decapitation and a lot of people point that out to be some kind of Rage again making it
00:45:02
personal um this is it's very difficult if if you really wanted to okay let's pretend that this is a premeditated
00:45:12
murder or a premeditated crime that that the offender knew would lead to a murder
00:45:17
MH that you could really I believe narrow your sus suspect pull significantly because that would it
00:45:26
would have to be somebody that either a knew her routine and knew what would be going on that day or B had a very good
00:45:35
understanding of that church and its operations and and how many people were coming in and out at that time of day
00:45:42
well it's difficult to know when they get Collections and when they cuz sometimes churches will get collections
00:45:50
for multiple days and then do a deposit and then so then you wonder was there a big
00:45:59
donation of of some kind that she told somebody about and then they went oh well you need to
00:46:08
deposit that and then she goes oh well we haven't deposited it yet and that becomes your motivation so here's some
00:46:15
speculation that I put in to this if it were not I don't know the workings of this situation but the retired Bishop
00:46:24
that showed up that day my first thought had he not been retired and knowing that this was a regular
00:46:31
meeting but it didn't occur every Sunday right my first thought was is that when
00:46:36
Pastor Daniels is supposed to turn over Monies to the bishop and that somebody would have known that about the church
00:46:44
and thought well this is when the this is when the money is at its highest right before it's going to be turned in
00:46:50
right so that's the most opportune time if I'm looking for the most amount of money with him being retired I don't
00:46:56
know that that would have been the situation but this was some kind of regular scheduled meeting right so I do
00:47:03
want to Circle back to Robert Richardson who we discussed earlier he is also known as the Florida kid for those of
00:47:11
you that like nicknames this is the man who came forward several days after Pastor Daniel's murder to inform police
00:47:18
that he had seen the killer leaving the church covered in blood he did add some pieces to the
00:47:24
story Richard also said that someone had been prowling around the church in the days before the crime and that he in
00:47:31
fact warned Pastor Daniels about this okay hold on because it seems like a lot of details of the day of and
00:47:42
days before and that seems a little suspicious to me like why wouldn't he have come forward
00:47:49
earlier that's why I really suspect that Richardson was just looking for the reward money
00:47:56
okay and what I mean by don't think he's involved in any no I think I think this
00:48:00
is a dude that probably has fallen on hard times and he saw this and and probably wanted to help in some way but
00:48:07
he saw this or heard this on the street and heard that there was a large reward and thought you know what I'll I'm going
00:48:15
to go up and say that I saw somebody running from the church and then when they catch this person months from now
00:48:20
they're going to have to give me the reward right because I came forward and and I gave them what I claimed I saw now
00:48:27
regarding Robert Richardson many people believe that Richardson himself is a strong
00:48:33
suspect yeah well he seems like a real turtle buner so well another potential suspect is one Michael Hinton Jr Mr
00:48:43
Hinton has a history of drug abuse and a past conviction for a violent crime this
00:48:48
is first-degree rape of a minor under 14 years old now his connection to the case
00:48:53
is this hinton's mother was a co-founder of Christ holy Sanctified church and was
00:49:01
a close friend of Pastor Daniels some have speculated that after his mother passed away that she may have left the
00:49:09
bulk of her estate to Pastor Daniels and or the church possibly enraging her son
00:49:17
right but I do want to be very very clear about this next point no solid evidence of this has ever
00:49:24
been uncovered this is just P pure speculation right nobody has there's no paper trail to
00:49:31
suggest that his mother did in fact leave money to Daniels or to the church and while we're on the topic about the
00:49:40
you know the church and its money if if you didn't know the church by just based off of appearance
00:49:50
in in the location this is not a church that I would anticipate would be holding
00:49:54
a lot of money no no no okay um one of the more popular online theories states that Pastor Daniels was murdered as some
00:50:03
kind of work of a serial killer and and this the online theory is very specific serial killer Israel Keys oh yeah so
00:50:12
according to keys he committed crimes all over the United States and he explained to law enforcement after he
00:50:18
was caught that his work as a construction contractor enabled him to move around frequently without suspicion
00:50:26
Keys would monitor natural disasters like floods tornadoes and hurricanes and then respond to the affected areas to
00:50:34
bid on jobs to bid on work right just three months before Pastor Daniel's murder anad Darko was hit by a series of
00:50:43
heavy storms and tornadoes so this could certainly have provided keys with a reason to be in the
00:50:49
area also worth noting though Keys was reported to have um several satanic themed
00:50:58
tattoos so yeah that I mean that's a very interesting Theory there he and and we know Keys is a giant turtle boner
00:51:06
anyways so well and he also admittedly used chemicals at crime scenes to destroy potential forensic evidence so
00:51:15
have they done any DNA testing or fingerprints CU it's I'm assuming his DNA is now in the system well remember
00:51:23
OSBI they couldn't find any fingerprints or DNA at the scene they were searching for those two
00:51:30
items and they they very quickly figured out that they didn't have either of that
00:51:36
again again another reason why they' take the door though right because right if if you have all the all the clothes
00:51:42
are gone the hair is burnt you know there's cleaning solution all over the body then you go okay well we know they
00:51:49
went through this door so let's just take the door and test every part of it mhm and you know that's
00:51:57
frustrating so one issue I have to present regarding Keys as a as a good suspect yeah okay so let's keep in mind
00:52:07
first of all what is the math that he was there at that time and this particular
00:52:15
individual was killed and he he didn't know this victim right there's nothing to suggest that he knew her knew the
00:52:22
area knew the church but he's a monster man yes he's definitely a monster but but right there that's quite the stretch
00:52:28
already then on top of that Keys seems to only have targeted white victims yeah and in in in his
00:52:37
cases the female victims were violently sexually assaulted yeah and his crimes were largely sexually motivated and none
00:52:48
of Key's known crimes bear any sort of religious Hallmark either so it doesn't seem to fit his
00:52:55
Mo right but but I think any killer that has a bigger number of kills there's going to be some outliers
00:53:08
MH so possibly and then again then it's like well the taking of the clothes possibly could become sexual at that
00:53:17
point mhm some other newsworthy items regarding this case uh I found this particularly interesting one Reverend
00:53:26
said that the murder helped to motivate him to get a concealed carry license Reverend Brian ball says he sometimes
00:53:35
carries his weapon during his sermons and regularly carries when he is alone at the church in which he works it
00:53:43
depends on uh what kind of church you are the pastor of but uh but I think yeah if you're going into buildings that
00:53:53
are as big I mean this church was small but think about some of the churches that these pastors and Priests have to
00:54:00
go into by themselves and there's multiple entrance ways and exit way exit ways and there's probably not a ton of
00:54:09
security guards all the time probably more you know security guards at the bigger churches like during business
00:54:17
hours there might be a couple but um they're they're there a lot by themselves alone well and you have
00:54:25
several different kinds of churches some that are in troubled areas and they lock
00:54:29
their doors and some that are in troubled areas and they leave the doors open because they're there for the
00:54:34
community right so that really puts someone who's really just trying to do really good work as a potential victim
00:54:43
When anybody could just walk through that door and be one-on-one with somebody I actually I applaud this move
00:54:50
I think that you know you say what it depends on what kind of church that that you're running whether you should
00:54:55
conceal and carry or not I think I think an American Church you conceal and carry
00:55:01
no it it was a bad joke but I was you know cuz you know if you go to a Baptist Church they're up and singing and and
00:55:08
vibrant you know and if you go to like a Catholic Church they're kind of like kneeling and sitting and kind of boring
00:55:15
that was a bad joke well some other newsworthy items since uh we have the church this actual church was torn down
00:55:24
in 20 0 just months after the murder and in its place a memorial to Pastor Daniels was put up uh we should also
00:55:34
note that the FBI got involved almost immediately in this case and then we have Dr kly Trant and I I don't know if I'm
00:55:45
saying the name correctly my my handwriting scribbled on this note here this is the doctor that performed the
00:55:53
autopsy this individual was fired and actually sued in 2010 not in relation to this crime not in relation to this case
00:56:03
but I think it's something did you say the name was kly Trant T it looks like I wrote t r a n
00:56:10
t okay not Coy Malik not Coy Malik no um and then we have this situation which I
00:56:20
find incredibly interesting in 2012 Daniel's mother Daniel's mother who was then 85 years young God bless her Eda
00:56:30
Dunlap said one thing that has not been discussed is that her daughter's purse and briefcase were missing from the
00:56:38
church Dunlap said that she has heard nothing from law enforcement in several months quote I haven't heard a thing not
00:56:46
one single thing she said no one seems to be doing anything and this is this too is interesting Dunlap said the only
00:56:54
clue that her daughter provided before her death was that two people would often come to the church when she was
00:57:02
there quote two men she said would come to her church all of the time one would sit in the back and one would go to the
00:57:10
piano and she told them that they would have to be saved or they could not come and play the piano anymore now she goes
00:57:17
on to say that she never asked her daughter what the names were of these individuals and says to this very day it
00:57:27
it really bothers her and she says I often worry and wonder about those two people she did go on to say in this same
00:57:36
interview that she is confident that the crime will eventually be solved she says
00:57:42
she's got a feeling that the person is going to come forward and confess at some point well I think that her gut
00:57:49
feeling I think for whatever reason I think the universe gives us answers sometimes that we need and this gut
00:57:58
feeling that these two boys that were coming into the church or important means something but I also
00:58:05
think the gut feeling that she had that this will be solved the information that
00:58:09
came out in 2012 kind of points to this idea that it's going to be solved at some point
00:58:17
yeah so there's been a lot of things that have come about in this case since 2012 since that interview with with
00:58:24
Daniel's mother and the first thing is that investigators eventually did release the surveillance video to the
00:58:33
public which does show something suspicious the security cameras at the nearby convenience store captured a
00:58:40
blurry white figure leaving the vicinity of the church at the time of the crime now I want to be clear about something
00:58:48
when we say blurry white figure I've watched this video from time you know multiple times it's a good distance away
00:58:57
it's almost like you're seeing like a like a ghost or something like it's right you know if picture picture you're
00:59:03
watching something in black and white and all you can tell is that there's something lighter than its surroundings
00:59:09
and it's a human form moving so you're not you're not getting any description of this individual of of the person
00:59:18
leaving the church so it's very low qual quality video this prevented investigators from
00:59:26
making any type of identification on who this person is but what's interesting is
00:59:33
what the video does show what you can depict from the video and that is that there are several people out on the
00:59:42
streets and nearby when this person is fleeing the area right so you have several potential witnesses that were
00:59:49
captured by the cameras now and these these people are closer and and and much more detectable where they may have been
00:59:57
able to identify some of these people and then speak with them yeah what's sad is in a lot of these areas that have
01:00:05
high crime um the people don't trust the cops so they don't come forward with information so what we end up learning
01:00:14
from this is that according to the district attorney he says quote there are a lot of people out at that time
01:00:22
logic says somebody saw something well it took a long time but people started to talk and some of them were talking to
01:00:31
the authorities the da says quote they were hearing the scuttlebutt around town they know who did this people were
01:00:39
saying it was two people da Hicks says the two in question were violent drug dealers and people were afraid to come
01:00:48
forward Hicks says investigators considered several motives through the years eventually they were calling it a
01:00:56
foiled robbery where the suspects likely looking for drug money came into the church and killed Daniels in 2015 a
01:01:05
woman offered a potential break in the case she actually witnessed a Suspect with a black blouse and a knife that had
01:01:15
blood on it and it was around the time of Pastor Daniel's murder da Hicks says The Woman Led investigators to a shed
01:01:24
located behind a home in anad Darko she advised that those items were taken into
01:01:30
the shed and burned okay so we have a witness that comes forward it says I I saw somebody
01:01:36
that should be suspected of this crime right saw them with the murder weapon saw them with items that I believe were
01:01:43
taken from the church and then burned in the shed she shows the investigators where the shed is the problem is we're
01:01:50
now 6 years later we're now 6 years after the fact they search that shed they can't come up with any evidence
01:01:58
from that shed to present uh to build a case against this individual so not only
01:02:04
did that search come up empty the woman the witness passed away just days later after giving investigators that
01:02:13
information now I believe that she was able to name this suspect it wasn't just I saw
01:02:21
somebody that looked like this going in the shed I believe was able to name them
01:02:25
because we do have a report that says the OSBI polygraphed several witnesses and the suspects themselves and neither
01:02:35
offered a confession so da Hicks says it seems in regards to this case it seems like every
01:02:42
time we take a step forward we're taking two steps back in 2017 at the request of
01:02:48
Da Hicks a multi-count grand jury took up the case but then another setback the main suspect who was Denise Darnell
01:02:58
Cooper died of cancer before Grand jurors could hear her testimony Hicks knew he wouldn't get an indictment and
01:03:07
now they would have to find another Avenue to prosecute suspect number two at the proceedings other possible
01:03:15
Witnesses were called this included then prisoner Kevin Mayhan but he like others
01:03:21
before him offered nothing of value now I wonder why he specifically mentioned I wonder if he's actually
01:03:31
suspect number two yeah because they never name well to where I could find suspect number two but they specifically
01:03:39
mention him as possible witness was called before the grand jury he said nothing to them right or he's a prisoner
01:03:48
informant right mhm yeah could be a a jail house snitch or something right right um so when asked uh when the da
01:04:00
was asked he did say he thinks this cold case will be solved at some point hick said quote I look at it this way it is
01:04:07
solved my question is will we be able to bring Justice bring it to Justice and he says
01:04:14
I'm not going to stop trying the DA's task force investigators are still working the case All Those Who Loved
01:04:22
Carol Daniels are still searching for justice anyone with information is asked to call the OSBI tip line at 1
01:04:31
800522 8017 or email tips OSBI o.gov and a quick quote from Bishop Wilson quote I want them to remember
01:04:45
Carol was a very faithful lady and she was a very sweet lady and she's somebody everybody should have gotten to know
01:04:54
I just remember a very ambitious sweet [Music] lady this week we have some recommended
01:05:12
listening for everybody out there because when we were doing research for this case this week's case it reminded
01:05:19
Us of three different cases that we've covered before and I think that you'll find some very interesting similarities
01:05:25
between those three cases in this one one is Missy beaver's case also we have Todd kab the real estate serial killer
01:05:34
and we also have the case called the devil did it and those are from 2018 and from 2017 for our back catalog
01:05:43
download the Stitcher app for free and you can listen to episode one two episode now all for free on the Stitcher
01:05:51
app and check out on Stitcher premium our weekly show called off the Record where we do updates and talk about true
01:05:58
crime documentaries and a bunch of nonsense yes it's a show about nothing uh also we want to give a shout out to
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join us next week until then be good be kind and don't litter [Music] [Applause]
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